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(Outside Online)   What it feels like to freeze to death   (outsideonline.com) divider line 108
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14458 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2012 at 11:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-29 10:21:25 AM
Chilling.
 
2012-12-29 10:38:58 AM
Cold?
 
2012-12-29 10:50:43 AM
img832.imageshack.us

Vhat killed da dinosauhs?

DA ICE AAAAAAAGE! ARHRAHRARHBWARHAGUGHRHRAHGHGGH
 
2012-12-29 11:17:48 AM
How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.
 
2012-12-29 11:17:57 AM
On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.
 
2012-12-29 11:20:45 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-29 11:23:27 AM

KarmicDisaster: How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.


I think a few people, like Beck Weathers, have been close enough that I'm willing to take their word for it, although it does make my long-term senior-care plan sound less appealing....

/There might not be any ice-floes left anyway.
 
2012-12-29 11:25:27 AM
Great. Now I have to go outside. Granted it's like 40 degrees out BUT STILL.
 
2012-12-29 11:32:28 AM
But it still feels better than submitting yesterday's Reddit links.
 
2012-12-29 11:32:50 AM
Can someone without ADD tell me what happened in that article? I tried to skim through it, but got lost in the various tenses and points of view. Did the author almost freeze? Did the author make it? Addled minds want to know, but not badly enough to wade back into the avalanche of text.

/kthx
 
2012-12-29 11:36:07 AM

BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.


Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.
 
2012-12-29 11:37:49 AM
We should never have gone ziplining.
 
2012-12-29 11:39:21 AM
That was a terrible read.

/Also not accurate
 
2012-12-29 11:40:09 AM

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.
 
2012-12-29 11:40:26 AM
You can tell that subby didn't grow up in a mega (as in a population in the millions) city. If s/he had, instead of "What it feels like to freeze to death," that headline would have been "What it feels like to die of hypothermia"
 
2012-12-29 11:43:11 AM

Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.


In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?
 
2012-12-29 11:45:55 AM

FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


I am sure you can make it all better with that time machine of yours
 
2012-12-29 11:46:09 AM
"The lack of insulating fat over your muscles allows the cold"

kind of lost me at this point.

also it doesn't describe properly the pain of the cold, how agonizingly cold, how awful it is to freeze, the article makes it seem simple and easy.
 
2012-12-29 11:48:40 AM

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Are you going to disrespect the tortured souls even further by throwing out the results that they gave us? it's not like pretending those experiments didn't happen is going to bring anyone back to life.
 
2012-12-29 11:50:09 AM

Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: [img832.imageshack.us image 431x300]

Vhat killed da dinosauhs?

DA ICE AAAAAAAGE! ARHRAHRARHBWARHAGUGHRHRAHGHGGH


That made my morning. Thanks TMLO!
 
2012-12-29 11:50:34 AM

FarkTorrance: In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


Expecting the scientific method to include or exclude anything based on morality seems to detract from the veracity of the results. YOMV,
 
GCD
2012-12-29 11:51:01 AM
Ironically, almost all the known information that is out there on hypothermia originally came from the Nazis.

In 1941, the Luftwaffe conducted experiments with the intent of discovering means to prevent and treat hypothermia. One study forced subjects to endure a tank of ice water for up to five hours.

Another study placed prisoners naked in the open air for several hours with temperatures as low as −6 °C (21 °F). Besides studying the physical effects of cold exposure, the experimenters also assessed different methods of rewarming survivors.

There's no doubt that the tests were absolutely inhumane and there's no question that Dr. Josef Mengele was a deranged lunatic...but up until then, there wasn't a lot of information known about hypothermia.
 
2012-12-29 11:51:31 AM

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Ever hear the old adage "even a blind pig finds mud once in awhile"? Information is information. It was terribly gained but we have it now and ignoring it only serves to disrespect the dead who had their lives stolen from them to get the information.

FarkTor, you sicken me.
 
2012-12-29 11:52:30 AM

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)
 
2012-12-29 11:53:01 AM
He lost me at "by this time you've moved off the road." No I haven't I'm not an idiot.
 
2012-12-29 11:54:19 AM

Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)


I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 
2012-12-29 11:55:43 AM

FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


You know how I know you're not a scientist?
 
2012-12-29 11:58:18 AM

stevejovi: FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?

You know how I know you're not a scientist?


Are you talking to me? If so, you're right, I'm not, but I'd be interested in hearing 'how you know it' anyways. This is an interesting subject that I really hadnt expected to come up, but intrigues me.
 
2012-12-29 11:59:01 AM
First Chill-Then Stupor-Then the Letting Go

As someone who froze half to death once, it's like this...

First you're wondering where you are, but you're not freezing to death, so it's okay.
You ask yourself questions, because you're near no human:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.


Then you start to get mildly confused, for example, starting to think that the local animals are talking or having complex thoughts.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.


The auditory hallucinations are the first ones. The silence of the snow starts to make noises. Now you're more confused...now you think the animals are capable of asking questions.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.


You start to repeat things, wondering if you've said it before, first just phrases, then whole sentences.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.
 
2012-12-29 12:00:13 PM
I'm sure there was a lot of data that came out of the experiments mentioned in the article and by other posters. But I'd ask which is the greater disrespect: discarding that data as morally tainted, or pretending the value of that information is in some way a silver lining that "gave their death meaning"? I think the best we can do is to respect and mourn them as victims of something awful; the worst is to offer their murderers (or those complicit in their torture) a voice in the scientific community, no matter how much you try to spin some sort of "greater good" merit from all this.
And at the end of the day, all the data in is case really offers is some finer points on what most of us with opposable thumbs already know: if it's freezing cold outside, you probably are better off staying in. Otherwise, wear something warm.
 
2012-12-29 12:03:01 PM

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


While it is merely anecdotal, and not from my personal experience, I remember my grandfather, a lifelong physician and surgeon, telling me about the surviving victims he personally found when he was in WW2, as well as experiences he had in other wars afterwards. He NEVER agreed with the methods that were used by the Nazis, however, he himself had used the RESULTS of their work in order to save other lives in conflicts in which he later served while in the military. He also used some of this knowledge in his private practice when he left the military, in order to help civilians as well.

Would you honestly tell a man like that, who's first and foremost concern was ALWAYS for his patients, that he should ignore the results of such work no matter how many lives it may save, merely because the methods used were abhorrent?

Knowledge in and of itself is not evil. Methods can be, I admit, but once the knowledge is there, isn't it better to honour the dead by using that knowledge to save others who don't have to die?
 
2012-12-29 12:03:33 PM
Madbassist1

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

I believe that story has saved countless lives.
 
2012-12-29 12:04:13 PM

RKade: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ever hear the old adage "even a blind pig finds mud once in awhile"? Information is information. It was terribly gained but we have it now and ignoring it only serves to disrespect the dead who had their lives stolen from them to get the information.

FarkTor, you sicken me.


Happy to disappoint you. You sound like you'd fit right in among the blind pigs.
 
2012-12-29 12:04:38 PM
"I died in a really shiatty way, but at least good people will be saved by what my murderers learned--if anyone finds out."

I'd actually find solace in my own death with that little piece of legacy.

Space suits were designed with such data taken into consideration.

We know from the guillotine that the human brain will stay conscious for a matter of seconds after the head is severed. Henri Languille in 1905, for example. Charlotte Corday is another one from over 200 years ago. Her severed head was biatchslapped by Legros and she made a face at him.

Science can be brutal. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lala" just because you don't like fact doesn't change those facts. Deliberately ignoring what that asshole Mengele learned would, as previously mentioned, disrespect those who died, as well as put Mengele on a sort of pedestal.
 
2012-12-29 12:08:01 PM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: You can tell that subby didn't grow up in a mega (as in a population in the millions) city. If s/he had, instead of "What it feels like to freeze to death," that headline would have been "What it feels like to die of hypothermia"


Only people that grew up in a city with several million people call it hypothermia? Please explain.
 
2012-12-29 12:09:18 PM

RKade: Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.

 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.
 
2012-12-29 12:13:30 PM
Air can hurt you, too.

Also, regarding the Dachau thing, really? We're expected to just ignore such information because of the source and methods? And then what? Pretend it does not exist? Remove whatever good came from such horrors? What the hell?
 
2012-12-29 12:16:54 PM
FTA When your Jeep spins lazily off the mountain road and slams backward into a snowbank, you don't worry immediately about the cold.


After a day of skiing I always remove my jacket and fleece before I get in the car for the drive home but I always think about what would happen if I had a car wreck going over the mountain pass...would I be able to reach my outer layers and put them on while waiting for rescue.
 
2012-12-29 12:17:37 PM
Could I skip going through all of that with the simple knowledge that a 4-wheel drive does not grants invulnerability to physics?
 
2012-12-29 12:17:56 PM

LabGrrl: Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.


Close. The poet author was contemplating suicide.

Having gone though hypothermia, there is nothing that can be described as decision making at all.
 
2012-12-29 12:19:19 PM

Primitive Screwhead: That made my morning. Thanks TMLO!


*tips hat*

Cheers!
 
2012-12-29 12:19:55 PM

Missicat: RKade: Missicat:

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.


I can see that it's a thorny issue, and I don't expect there is an easy answer when weighed against real or hypothetical lives lost as a result of discarding morally-dubious scientific results. But I don't think science needs to be brutal, as camaroash suggests. I feel that allowing such brutally-derived data into the research community amounts to a sort of complicity. It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means. And I suppose that's an argument that will not be resolved anytime soon, certainly not in this thread.
 
2012-12-29 12:23:29 PM

Missicat: RKade: Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.


I don't doubt. It'd be a tightrope walk between sounding like an uncaring monster on one side and an ostrich with their head in the sand on the other. Kudos for, I assuming, not coming off as either. I respectfully disagree with you, however. To me, it's a very simple matter. Info is info. It's already out there all pink and naked so why not use it? Like I said above, it would disrespect the unfortunate dead to not use it, in my opinion.

It's a convo to have via email or IM, I think. No need to waste everyone else's time on here, right? :)
 
2012-12-29 12:24:05 PM

LabGrrl: First Chill-Then Stupor-Then the Letting Go

As someone who froze half to death once, it's like this...

First you're wondering where you are, but you're not freezing to death, so it's okay.
You ask yourself questions, because you're near no human:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

Then you start to get mildly confused, for example, starting to think that the local animals are talking or having complex thoughts.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

The auditory hallucinations are the first ones. The silence of the snow starts to make noises. Now you're more confused...now you think the animals are capable of asking questions.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

You start to repeat things, wondering if you've said it before, first just phrases, then whole sentences.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.


Jesus. I think you just broke Robert Frost for me.
 
2012-12-29 12:25:19 PM

Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)



How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.
 
2012-12-29 12:25:20 PM

FarkTorrance: It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means.


I don't think the perpetrators of such experiments care.
 
2012-12-29 12:28:10 PM

FarkTorrance: Missicat: RKade: Missicat:

SNIP

I can see that it's a thorny issue, and I don't expect there is an easy answer when weighed against real or hypothetical lives lost as a result of discarding morally-dubious scientific results. But I don't think science needs to be brutal, as camaroash suggests. I feel that allowing such brutally-derived data into the research community amounts to a sort of complicity. It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means. And I suppose that's an argument that will not be resolved anytime soon, certainly not in this thread.


In science, especially in new science, the ends always justify the means. Once we have the twin bedrocks of hypothesis and data down can we build the nice house of ethical science.

www.oocities.org
Like Farnsworth said "SCIENCE CANNOT MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT HEAPS!"
 
2012-12-29 12:29:57 PM

Abox: After a day of skiing I always remove my jacket and fleece before I get in the car for the drive home but I always think about what would happen if I had a car wreck going over the mountain pass...would I be able to reach my outer layers and put them on while waiting for rescue.


No. Does that answer your question? Open the windows and keep your clothes on.

I understand cold. I have traveled through cold. I have slept in snow routinely. There is a very short list of things not to do in cold. Let's look. Do not remove your clothes.
 
2012-12-29 12:30:34 PM

generallyso: FarkTorrance: It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means.

I don't think the perpetrators of such experiments care.


I suppose the problem here is that I do.
 
2012-12-29 12:30:46 PM

FarkTorrance: I'm sure there was a lot of data that came out of the experiments mentioned in the article and by other posters. But I'd ask which is the greater disrespect: discarding that data as morally tainted, or pretending the value of that information is in some way a silver lining that "gave their death meaning"? I think the best we can do is to respect and mourn them as victims of something awful; the worst is to offer their murderers (or those complicit in their torture) a voice in the scientific community, no matter how much you try to spin some sort of "greater good" merit from all this.


Firstly, how can you ask those of use reading this to honestly mourn for those people we've never met? This may sound heartless, but I didn't even mourn for my own grandfather when he died, I celebrated the well-lived life he had. I'm not trying to spin this as any type of greater good, but did your mother or anyone else in your family or friends ever tell you the phrase "waste not, want not"?

I view ignoring the knowledge that we've gained over the centuries, even that which was gained in a horrific fashion, as a waste. It would be a waste of lives, it would be a waste of information, and most importantly to me, it would be a waste of future lives which could potentially be helped by the information.

Forgive me for being so heartless as to think that I'd rather the information and knowledge be used to help those alive today and tomorrow, rather than ignoring it because of what was done to those who have been long since dead.

Oh, and for the record, once you stop giving coherent points and begin calling names, you've lost the discussion. Case in point:

To RKade:

FarkTorrance: Happy to disappoint you. You sound like you'd fit right in among the blind pigs.


This poster did nothing to insult you directly, they merely disagreed with the things you said. Your response was to tell them, perhaps not in so many words, but certainly in implication, that they'd fit in among Nazis. Well done. As of this point on, I'm disregarding all future comments from you, since you cannot keep yourself from attacking the argument rather than the arguer.
 
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