Kittypie070: Oh hai, I'll just poop these here.[upload.wikimedia.org image 350x138]
ProfessorOhki: but since most have core tenants that are specifically untestable, I'm not sure what they'd get out of it.
ProfessorOhki: I'm not sure what you're getting at by temporal or non-physical things.
ProfessorOhki: If you're going to say temporal something like, "I sneezed on July 6th, 1976," but science can't reproduce that exact sneeze because it's 2012, guess you'll just have to take it on faith
ProfessorOhki: 1.Are you trying to build up a case for saying that in the past, the existence of God was witnessed and written down, but then he went away, so we're only left with writings? Still incompatible with science.2. If we found a 5000 year old text that said that pouring mercury and squirrel blood on lead, then burying it for a month turned it into gold, we could try it and go, "nope, that's BS." 3. Don't tell me you're going to go for the, "well, what if it worked 5000 years ago, but now it doesn't" angle? 4. Even if it WERE true at the time of writing, 5. it would be invalid for the purposes of science.
Kittypie070: wub, wub
Uncle Tractor: A. That depends how reasonable the claims are. Claim that you saw a meteor fall last night? You can't reproduce it but it's known to happen, so you'll probably be believed. Claim that a talking mushroom dictated a holy book to you? Eh ...B.In what way have I been "doing it wrong," and how does one "do it right?"
Uncle Tractor: 1. See, one of the things that makes science > religion is that 2. science corrects itself. Errors will sooner or later be found. 3. Religion, OTOH, is supposed to be the eternal truth. Fixing what's wrong in a given religion will wreck it, while failing to do so will make it increasingly irrelevant and backward.
Inflatable Rhetoric: There's news. Sin can create living creatures.Citation needed.
I drunk what: 1. God created Man, Life, Free Will2. Man created Sin3. Sin altered God's Good-Perfect Creation into what you now see as Evil (aka malaria, mosquitoes, etc..)
I drunk what: Uncle Tractor: A. That depends how reasonable the claims are. Claim that you saw a meteor fall last night? You can't reproduce it but it's known to happen, so you'll probably be believed. Claim that a talking mushroom dictated a holy book to you? Eh ...B.In what way have I been "doing it wrong," and how does one "do it right?"A. so then reality depends on:1. Being perceived as reasonable by those witnessing it.
Uncle Tractor: So you've got nothing.
Uncle Tractor: An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god would know how to create Free Will without also enabling man to create Sin
Uncle Tractor: The notion that you can't have free will without evil is false.
I drunk what: well i suppose it is possible to create a reality in which the only choice is "good"..?but i guess that would depend on what you define as a "Loving" creator?
SkunkWerks: by those rules there isn't anything that Man creates that God didn't create by proxy
SkunkWerks: There's also pretty much no way He can feign ignorance, either.
SkunkWerks: No Plausible Deniability to be found here.
SkunkWerks: As such, I've concluded that, if there is a God, he sure is a douchebag.
SkunkWerks: Not that this shocks or appalls me. Most managers have a pretty broad douchebag streak. It's what makes them Management material.
SkunkWerks: God- by way of creating Man, Free Will, and so on- also created Sin.
SkunkWerks: Working as intended... by Him.
SkunkWerks: This of course leads to the whole "works in mysterious ways" malarkey. Douchebags aren't really all that mysterious though. Another popular whipping boy is "God's plan", and this one I actually find even more hilarious. When you not only know everything that can happen, but everything that will happen, what exactly can you do that isn't planned?
SkunkWerks: Everything that can happen is already pre-ordained.
SkunkWerks: Kinda makes one wonder if Free Will is all it's really cracked up to be.
RedVentrue: Lionel Mandrake: Silverstaff: Lionel Mandrake: Uncle Tractor: Relevant to all Dawkins threads:[i560.photobucket.com image 475x336]An IRL version:[i159.photobucket.com image 720x408]upload.wikimedia.orgWhat an ACTUAL militant atheist may look like.Seriously weak.He's right though. Chairman Mao was another.
I drunk what: did God create this^ post? even by proxy perhaps...
I drunk what: but that just goes to show you that we shouldn't worry our pretty little heads about things we couldn't even possibly understand...
I drunk what: being aware of something =/= paying attention to it
I drunk what: any particular examples jump to mind?
I drunk what: I disagree.
I drunk what: me thinks you doth confuse mortals with the Immortal too mucheth
I drunk what: btw is there any Good in this dreadful universe of yours? just curious
I drunk what: like this post?
I drunk what: honest question
I drunk what: good thing you don't have to worry about that stuff since you've been pre-ordained to herpty derp
ProfessorOhki: Magorn: Prove to me that God doesn't exist and you can then say science and religion are incompatible. If something is immune to confimation by proof then it science has no opinion on the matter since it lies outside the realm of what can be experiementally confirmed. both Science and religion are similar in that they suffer when you try to make them into something they are not. Religion is not useful guide to the physical truths of the observable universe. Science is not an appropriate tool for definitively determining if a supreme being exists outside the boundaries and rules of time and space.You do realize that science and religion are incompatible for exactly the reasons you go on to list, right? It's the fact you can't, through experimentation, support a claim of existence or non-existence that MAKES religion incompatible with science. Your first sentence makes no sense, given that you're already obviously aware of this.Now, I'll agree that you can't apply science to religion as it's almost always, by definition, untestable. However, that means kindly get your mysticism out of everything that CAN have evidence gathered in support or against. I'll admit that we can't set up an experiment to see if God's real or not. Now, if they would just kindly admit that evoking God doesn't let them ignore centuries of research in hundreds of disciplines, that'd be great. The thing that the faithful just don't seem to be able to respect is the breadth of science's ability is always growing while religions is always, "whatever is left." If the future mimic's history, the final point of contention between the two will be humanity understanding nearly everything about our universe, with religion left going, "well, there's still a guy on the outside who did it."You know what pisses atheists off more than anything? When someone gets out of a 5 hour surgery, after a full complement of doctors, techs, nurses worked their asses off, utilizing techniques honed by trial and erro ...
I drunk what: Uncle Tractor: So you've got nothing.this pretty much sums up the post
Valiente: It's arguable that they weren't atheists at all. They turned the religious impulse they found in their own societies from sky fairies to Party leaders. What was "the cult of personality" (besides a pretty good '90s hit) but an attempt to replace fictional gods with fictional humans?In other words, if you claim "there is no god, but I'll be playing one for the masses", you're not so much an atheist as a master manipulator of human weakness.
Uncle Tractor: Personality cults, as you say.
SkunkWerks: I might suggest you're rude for getting overly defensive when discussing it though...
SkunkWerks: And as I'd rather know than not know
SkunkWerks: But being aware and doing nothing is also a deliberate act.
SkunkWerks: How is this functionally different than creating Sin directly?
SkunkWerks: I'm not the one giving man sole credit for creating Sin
SkunkWerks: See above
SkunkWerks: Talking to yourself? I don't mind, nor do I think less of you for it. Honestly I don't really find the act all that dissimilar to Prayer.
SkunkWerks: As you're the one arguing for the existence of this universe
SkunkWerks: None of these have been all that honest so far, why should I start believing this endorsement now?
SkunkWerks: I won't call you "herpty-derpty" if it's what works for you in life.
I drunk what: know what?
I drunk what: who said He was doing nothing?
I drunk what: i guess that is up to you to decide, isn't it?
I drunk what: does it help you feel better to pass the blame? numbs the sting a bit, eh?
I drunk what: God did create Free Will
I drunk what: the seeing bad stuff happen but not immediately stopping it part?
I drunk what: just be sure you listen
I drunk what: what does your universe look like?
I drunk what: i wanted you to pause a moment and think before you respondedalas it appears i failed
I drunk what: perhaps you should worry more about that beam in your eye before you fret over that projected-imaginary splinter in His...
I drunk what: you'd just watch and do ... nothing?
SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: Personality cults, as you say.Kinda like Dawkins, albeit on a smaller scale.
Uncle Tractor: SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: Personality cults, as you say.Kinda like Dawkins, albeit on a smaller scale.Personality cult? Really?
SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: Personality cults, as you say.Kinda like Dawkins, albeit on a smaller scale.Personality cult? Really?Yes. Really.
coffeecrisp: I do not believe in God.I also do not believe in Santa Claus.Is not believing in Santa Claus also a religion?
Uncle Tractor: And your evidence for this is ...?
SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: And your evidence for this is ...?He's a pundit. It's true, he's also a biologist, but that isn't why we know his name. Pundits make a living selling... well, themselves.He's quite good at it judging by all the Dawkins adherents I've ever met.
Uncle Tractor: Agreeing with him doesn't make one an "adherent."
Uncle Tractor: That's not a personality cult. That's just some guy voicing his opinions in public.
SkunkWerks: Uncle Tractor: Agreeing with him doesn't make one an "adherent."No, idolizing him does. And that's what his Adherents tend to do in my experience...
vactech: I have a belief system regarding the sun appearing to rise tomorrow morning
RedVentrue: I think the important lesson here is to be wary of fundamentalism, and rigid thinking, regardless of your philisophical position or religious persuasion.
Uncle Tractor: I drunk what: 1. God created Man, Life, Free Will2. Man created Sin3. Sin altered God's Good-Perfect Creation into what you now see as Evil (aka malaria, mosquitoes, etc..)Uh, why would an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god create Free Will in such a way that it made Evil possible? An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god would know how to create Free Will without also enabling man to create Sin, would be able to follow through, and would very much want to make it happen. The notion that you can't have free will without evil is false.
Valiente: It's arguable that they weren't atheists at all.
Uncle Tractor: Silverstaff: What an ACTUAL militant atheist may look like.No, that's what a militant *communist* looks like.Apparently, you're just another ignorant theist who can't tell the difference between communism (an ideology) and atheism (the absence of belief in gods). This invalidates the rest of your post.
Ishkur: Silverstaff: What an ACTUAL militant atheist may look like.Stalin wasn't an atheist. Neither was Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, etc.. not once did they rant in any of their speeches that their enemies must be eliminated for the sake of secular humanism and rational inquiry.
I drunk what: and if you are going to try and figure out how science can evaluate those things, then you have a catastrophic misunderstanding of what science is
Magorn: In my parent's eyes, her survival was "a miracle" not in the sense that God reached down from a cloud and did some woo-woo magic to make her all better, but that he saw to it that all the right people were in the right places with the right training and life experiences to make the choices that lead to her surviving rather than dying of a missed diagnosis. Are they right? Well again, this is a matter of Faith and immune to proof so to them, they are right, if you chose not to think so, that's also perfectly fine
SkunkWerks: Why. Is there anything else to know, really?
SkunkWerks: You did.
SkunkWerks: Or isnot paying attention to it now= doing something about it?
SkunkWerks: No, it really isn't. He decided to create man, ergo he decided to create sin.
SkunkWerks: Logic is a harsh mistress indeed.
SkunkWerks: Again, you're speaking as if I have a stake in the reality you're arguing for. Still not sure why.
Silverstaff: Yeah, he was a communist. Communism is an atheist ideology. Atheism is a key tenet of Marxist-Leninist and Maoist & Juche thinking. The whole reason for "Under God" being added to the the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" replacing "E Pluribus Unum" as the national motto in the 1950's was explicitly to reject the atheism that the USSR championed. One big reason that atheism has a stigma of being evil and unpatriotic is its association with communism.
SkunkWerks: So should I thank him for that non-gift?
SkunkWerks: Now you're getting it.
SkunkWerks: I do. I have. Those discussions eventually resigned me to leaving the fold.
SkunkWerks: Open, unfettered by mystical, super-powered beings. And that Free Will thingy seems to have a lot more effect on it. Overall I've been a good deal happier in the latter 20-some-odd years of my life. But I admit it's not for everyone.Clearly it's not for everyone. And this is- in a way- part of what makes my universe quite nifty.
SkunkWerks: If I wasn't pausing and thinking we wouldn't be conversing. At all. Don't go to all that trouble on my account, really.
SkunkWerks: You're again speaking as if I have a stake in the reality you're arguing for. And I'm still mystified as to why.
SkunkWerks: Appreciate the advice, but I'm already way ahead of you.
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.The amusing part is where an almost endless supply of Schoolboy Atheists will launch into ever-decreasing circles of denial, and exercises of semantics worthy of any medieval theologian.
Ishkur: I see IDW is in the thread
Savian: Jesus dude. He must have done a number on you. And apparently it's still working.
scalpod: I certainly don't remember ever choosing free will, so there's that.
coffeecrisp: Is not believing in Santa Claus also a religion?
I drunk what: coffeecrisp: Is not believing in Santa Claus also a religion?is Santa Claus a physical or spiritual being?
I drunk what: is IN this cruel game called life
I drunk what: scalpod: I certainly don't remember ever choosing free will, so there's that.given the choice would you choose it?/gives ProfessorOhki an aspirin//don't think about ityeah yeah, and we all know given the choice to take this test would we take it? no. but you don't hear us complaining about it, much//well except for every post in this thread..time to get over it, move onjust don't panic
Uncle Tractor: Communism is a social and economic ideology. Atheism is just a small facet of this ideology. When you call communism an "atheist ideology," you might as well call communism an "a-philatelist" ideology or a "pants-wearing" ideology. It doesn't make any sense.
SkunkWerks: He's quite good at it judging by all the Dawkins adherents I've ever met.
scalpod: I'm glad you agree there's no choice involved.
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