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(Newsarama)   We've not-so-secretly replaced Amazing Spider-Man with Superior Spider-Man. Let's see if anyone notices (SPOILERS)   (newsarama.com) divider line 63
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4999 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Dec 2012 at 8:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-26 07:12:03 PM
Here's our thread to discuss this. As I posted in the redlit one: They should just get 80s style wacky and say it is REALLY A clone of Doc Ock....from a parallel universe in space.
 
2012-12-26 07:24:18 PM
I have loved Dan Slott's run on the title, so hopefully this will end up being a pretty cool story...

...and anyone who thinks that this is permanent and won't be retconned before the next Spider-Man movie is delusional.
 
2012-12-26 08:38:44 PM
"How do you get more Peter Parker than that? Now the readers think he's a menace. That's exciting. On a meta level, that is Spider-Man."

Peter Parker is Spider-Man. THAT is Spider-Man. What we have here is a big heaping helping of turd.
 
2012-12-26 08:48:59 PM

Honest Bender: "How do you get more Peter Parker than that? Now the readers think he's a menace. That's exciting. On a meta level, that is Spider-Man."

Peter Parker is Spider-Man. THAT is Spider-Man. What we have here is a big heaping helping of turd.


Who will be banging Mary Jane. And getting goodbye kisses, after a family meal, from a geriatric aunt he was married to (and possibly had sex with).

/Happy dreams
 
2012-12-26 08:49:34 PM
Worst. Idea. Ever.
 
2012-12-26 08:51:51 PM
At least it's creative.
 
2012-12-26 09:15:33 PM

TheManofPA: Here's our third thread to discuss this.

 
2012-12-26 09:28:15 PM
What a ton of CRAP
 
2012-12-26 09:34:32 PM
Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.
 
2012-12-26 09:39:02 PM
I don't care if Mary Jane jumps off the page and gives me a blowjob, I'm not buying it. Quite literally. Peter Parker dying in the cancer riddled body of an old man while Doctor Octopus gets to bang Mary Jane in the body of a super-hero in his prime is simply unacceptable.

Good thing I dropped Spiderman after One More Day. I thought it was going to be shiat from there on out, and it seems I keep getting proved right. First the sidekick, now this.
 
2012-12-26 09:39:50 PM
Well it still sounds better than the Clone Saga. As long as Doc Spidey doesn't wear a torn hoodie I'll give it a shot.
 
2012-12-26 09:48:24 PM

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.


That was shiat to
 
2012-12-26 10:05:21 PM
So is the SpiderMan in the Avengers now the Doc Ock one, or is it Peter Parker before he switches minds with the doctor?
 
2012-12-26 10:10:57 PM

Bendal: So is the SpiderMan in the Avengers now the Doc Ock one, or is it Peter Parker before he switches minds with the doctor?


I think it's Peter because when Iron Man re-recruits him, Tony says 'I have money', and Peter says 'Thank you' . I doubt Ock-Spidey would say that. Yet over in Daredevil, someone wants Spidey to talk to DD and he says 'I will find him and then I will crush him'. The person goes 'Wait, what?'. Basically Marvel Now is all over the damn place.
 
2012-12-26 10:18:47 PM

TheManofPA: Here's our thread to discuss this. As I posted in the redlit one: They should just get 80s style wacky and say it is REALLY A clone of Doc Ock....from a parallel universe in space.


...who is the Beyonder posing as a Skull copy of a clone of Doc Ock... And ooh, I've gone cross eyed
 
2012-12-26 10:36:02 PM
Read it today. I found it underwhelming, and yet kind of upsetting at the same time. Watching Peter die and be replaced by his worst enemy is not exactly a fun thing to read. It's not often you see the bad-guy win on such a total complete level.

On the other hand, it is a novel twist at least. But Ock just murdered Spider-Man and is essentially going to be raping Mary Jane for the next year at least - and this is the guy Marvel wants me to follow and purchase multiple books to see how his story plays out?

Plus, Mary Jane was such a dim-witted punching bag in this story. Nothing but a brainless reactive blow-up doll fantasy-girlfriend:

Fake Ock-Peter: "Shut up woman; I've got some science stuff do do."
Dumbass Mary Jane: "Ok honey."

Fake Ock-Peter: "Why do you always yammer at me with the same inane pep-talk, woman?"
Dumbass Mary Jane: "But... Peter, I've just realized at this very moment that I'm in love with you (again)!"

I kept waiting for her to notice at some point that Peter was treating her like shiat, but she was completely oblivious - and worse - she seemed just fine with it.

It's these kind of dumb, poorly written stunt-stories that make me realize I really am too old to be reading this shiat.
 
2012-12-26 10:51:45 PM

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.


Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.
 
2012-12-26 10:53:02 PM

Max Awesome: Read it today. I found it underwhelming, and yet kind of upsetting at the same time. Watching Peter die and be replaced by his worst enemy is not exactly a fun thing to read. It's not often you see the bad-guy win on such a total complete level.

On the other hand, it is a novel twist at least. But Ock just murdered Spider-Man and is essentially going to be raping Mary Jane for the next year at least - and this is the guy Marvel wants me to follow and purchase multiple books to see how his story plays out?

Plus, Mary Jane was such a dim-witted punching bag in this story. Nothing but a brainless reactive blow-up doll fantasy-girlfriend:

Fake Ock-Peter: "Shut up woman; I've got some science stuff do do."
Dumbass Mary Jane: "Ok honey."

Fake Ock-Peter: "Why do you always yammer at me with the same inane pep-talk, woman?"
Dumbass Mary Jane: "But... Peter, I've just realized at this very moment that I'm in love with you (again)!"

I kept waiting for her to notice at some point that Peter was treating her like shiat, but she was completely oblivious - and worse - she seemed just fine with it.

It's these kind of dumb, poorly written stunt-stories that make me realize I really am too old to be reading this shiat.


How much do you want to bet that Quesada told them to write her like that?
 
2012-12-26 11:00:31 PM
Spockerpus.


It's settled.
 
2012-12-26 11:14:10 PM
I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.
 
2012-12-26 11:26:31 PM
Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.
 
2012-12-26 11:38:00 PM

subtlehavok: At least it's creative.


This.

That being said, I am skeptical that they would ever make this truly permanent. In the meantime we get to see a tale of redemption for Doc Ock. I dunno about you, but I found that one of the most compelling parts of the second Spider-Man movie. I LIKE watching a bad guy turn good, not overnight but slowly.

I think people would be less butthurt about this if it was a spinoff imprint of some variety. Rather bold that they've chosen to do this in the main imprint of the comics, although from what I hear the writing has justified it.
 
2012-12-26 11:41:11 PM

Max Awesome: Read it today. I found it underwhelming, and yet kind of upsetting at the same time. Watching Peter die and be replaced by his worst enemy is not exactly a fun thing to read. It's not often you see the bad-guy win on such a total complete level.

On the other hand, it is a novel twist at least. But Ock just murdered Spider-Man and is essentially going to be raping Mary Jane for the next year at least - and this is the guy Marvel wants me to follow and purchase multiple books to see how his story plays out?

Plus, Mary Jane was such a dim-witted punching bag in this story. Nothing but a brainless reactive blow-up doll fantasy-girlfriend:

Fake Ock-Peter: "Shut up woman; I've got some science stuff do do."
Dumbass Mary Jane: "Ok honey."

Fake Ock-Peter: "Why do you always yammer at me with the same inane pep-talk, woman?"
Dumbass Mary Jane: "But... Peter, I've just realized at this very moment that I'm in love with you (again)!"

I kept waiting for her to notice at some point that Peter was treating her like shiat, but she was completely oblivious - and worse - she seemed just fine with it.

It's these kind of dumb, poorly written stunt-stories that make me realize I really am too old to be reading this shiat.


Try the asian (Korea is producing some great stuff) comics. If you can ignore some of the more bizarre anatomical oddities (She's 17 and has size ZZZZ breasts perkier than an A cup could dream of!), some of the comics are good and short-ish. I favored the 100-200 issue stories myself. Explore some interesting things. I have no clue where to find them anymore, they used to be prolific but then American/Asian companies got publishing rights all sorted out and the stuff poofed to more secluded sites like real illegal downloads.

I've said it before, but I think continually writing the same character for, what, 70 years now? is a serious problem. There's no real growth or change, and everyone knows that killing off a major character is simply going to be retconned next week or month either when a new installment goes in, or when the person rises from the grave or was never dead or etc. etc. etc. We know what his powers are, how they work, who everyone is, who the villains are, and how they all interlock.
 
2012-12-26 11:43:55 PM
please, someone go "reorg" over at Marvel, make sure you get Mr. Q
 
2012-12-26 11:51:50 PM
And this is one reason that I have stopped reading comics. Makes the storylines from WWE Raw look believable.
 
2012-12-27 12:02:16 AM

Shadowtag: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.


Spider Island was just darling awful. Like, drop this book and run awful.
 
2012-12-27 01:23:21 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-27 02:02:41 AM
The best out Marvel has for this is - It's not Ock, it's brainwashed Parker. I.e., Ock tried to swap minds and failed, as mad scientists often do. Instead, he brainwashed Parker into thinking he's Ock, and Ock accidentally brainwashed himself into thinking he's Parker. So Ock died under his delusion, and Parker is now walking around thinking he's Ock. And all it would take is a contrived plot device like a bump on the head/electric shock/telepath to realize, "Hey Spidey, you're like, f"ed up" and set him straight,

Anything else veers head first into creepy rape by deception territory, which I honestly don't put past Marvel these days.
 
2012-12-27 05:14:11 AM

SaltyDonnie: The best out Marvel has for this is - It's not Ock, it's brainwashed Parker. I.e., Ock tried to swap minds and failed, as mad scientists often do. Instead, he brainwashed Parker into thinking he's Ock, and Ock accidentally brainwashed himself into thinking he's Parker. So Ock died under his delusion, and Parker is now walking around thinking he's Ock. And all it would take is a contrived plot device like a bump on the head/electric shock/telepath to realize, "Hey Spidey, you're like, f"ed up" and set him straight,

Anything else veers head first into creepy rape by deception territory, which I honestly don't put past Marvel these days.


I seem to remember a cracked article a while ago about the various instance of rape by deception in comics, its actually scarily common with shape shifting characters
 
2012-12-27 06:35:09 AM
Possible contender for the new Doc Ock?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-27 07:32:49 AM

ZeroCorpse: Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.


I dropped the book approximately well over 12 years ago, because of clone saga. It sounds like I've missed one stupid storyline after another.
 
2012-12-27 08:17:12 AM
s9.postimage.org
 
2012-12-27 08:38:04 AM

ZeroCorpse: I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other ...


Don't forget Uncanny Avengers...because The Avengers made a billion dollars in the movie theater, they need to tie in everything to the Avengers now, much like everything was around the X-men in the early 2000s after those movies hit.

The Marvel Now! is a weak attempt at their answer to the New 52.  I said this in the other thread, rebooting Uncanny X-Force, and starting a second X-Force title with Cable are a bit odd to me.  But yeah, Peter Parker will be back when the second movie hits.

Will they retcon Elektro in the comics and change him to a black guy, like they are removing white Nick Fury in the 616 realm to make room for black Fury?
 
2012-12-27 08:38:05 AM

ZeroCorpse: Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.


Having read Spiderman since the 80s:

#1) This is not GOOD spider-man. In fact most marvel comics are practically unreadable. About once every two months I go into yee old comic book shop (where I go for Role Playing Game and Magic the gathering related goodness) and I check out the comic books I used to love. I skim through them till I get to sad and I put them back on the shelf. There is a reason the comic movies and tv shows are using modified versions of 80s and 90s storylines to advance their projects.... its because the 21st century has been just awful for comics
#2) There is the fact OM/BND and this really do terrible things to the character of Mary Jane. They have been working hard to try to make me dislike the character
#3) I agree with another Old Comic reader in this thread: Spider-Man has been going down hill with unimaginative garbage since the Clone Saga
 
2012-12-27 09:15:38 AM
I don't read comics, but I rejoice a little when a super-hero dies and people freak out.

I'm thinking, "Oh, you thought dressing up in a funny costume and going to fight criminals with guns, while not using guns yourself would be SAFE?"

The only unrealistic part is all the comics in which Spiderman DOESN'T die.
 
2012-12-27 10:34:55 AM

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.


I just started reading the Ed Brubaker run on Captain America for the first time, and am just a few issues away from Cap's death. So far, it's amazing. It has me even more excited for the next Captain America movie than I already was.
 
2012-12-27 10:54:00 AM

FinFangFark: ZeroCorpse: I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kil ...


Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.
 
2012-12-27 11:14:43 AM

Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.


Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?
 
2012-12-27 11:16:30 AM

NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?


Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.
 
2012-12-27 11:17:47 AM

TheManofPA: Here's our thread to discuss this. As I posted in the redlit one: They should just get 80s style wacky and say it is REALLY A clone of Doc Ock....from a parallel universe in space.


Yeah I just did a "Dark Reign" on this one: Won't even touch this until they right the ship here...unless this whole exercise is a very long-term storyline to retcon "One More Day" and, essentially, restore the status-quo (MJ and Peter are together again, et. al.).
 
2012-12-27 11:23:17 AM

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.


Uh, big difference: Captain America didn't restart at #1 IIRC (also: Batman did this as well even though you knew Bruce Wayne would return to the suit).
 
2012-12-27 11:29:18 AM

subtlehavok: At least it's creative.


How the hell is this a defense? Creative =/= worth reading

For Fark sake insufferable "performance art" is creative too.
 
2012-12-27 11:29:36 AM
The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?
 
2012-12-27 11:32:00 AM

FinFangFark: NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.


I guess that was inevitable to tie in with the movies, but was there a decent in-universe explanation? Is Black Fury moving to the 616 universe and leaving Ultimate? Or is Fury just going to be black in all his incarnations now?
 
2012-12-27 11:32:24 AM

ZeroCorpse: I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.


The premise is very sound and (even though I have an intense dislike for Bendis) the long-term will probably be both Jean and the Professor returning and the X-Men going back to their roots but with a better enviroment for mutuants overall.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other ...

Yeah, no I dumped this the minute they announced the "Hunger Games"/"Battle Royale" gimmick
 
2012-12-27 11:33:30 AM

Crotchrocket Slim: subtlehavok: At least it's creative.

How the hell is this a defense? Creative =/= worth reading

For Fark sake insufferable "performance art" is creative too.


No, no he's right: It is creative...doesn't mean it's smart or it works however.
 
2012-12-27 11:36:52 AM

kid_icarus: The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?


Anybody who even tries to compare this dreck with "Kraven's Last Hunt" should have their eyes poked out. Not even kidding with this either; at least "KLH" didn't treat the readers as idiots.
 
2012-12-27 12:31:44 PM

Rwa2play: kid_icarus: The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?

Anybody who even tries to compare this dreck with "Kraven's Last Hunt" should have their eyes poked out. Not even kidding with this either; at least "KLH" didn't treat the readers as idiots.


Heard someone try to compare it to Dick Grayson taking over the role as Batman after final crisis. I rolled my eyes and tried to explain it was more like the Joker taking over the role of Bruce Wayne after murdering Bruce Wayne...

And yes I have read all of JMS and Dan Slott's runs on Amazing. And yes I normally like Slott, but this is just.... I don't know, but I have no interesting in reading about the adventures of SpOck.
 
2012-12-27 12:46:39 PM

NeoCortex42: FinFangFark: NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.

I guess that was inevitable to tie in with the movies, but was there a decent in-universe explanation? Is Black Fury moving to the 616 universe and leaving Ultimate? Or is Fury just going to be black in all his incarnations now?


I don't know why he moved to the Ultimate verse but the reason why there's a black Fury in the main Marvel verse is because it was recently revealed that Fury had a black kid whose real name was Nick Fury Jr and then old Nick started to go by Phil Coulson
 
2012-12-27 01:31:03 PM
The new series really should be called Existential Spider-Man.

What is your consciousness if not all of your memories, footsteps, and live leading up to this moment? Who exactly are you? In ASM #698, when the body switch was revealed, Octo-Spidey straight up told Peter-in-Oct's-body "I have all of your memories, and you have all of mine." At that point, the two could look back and remember the other's life, like watching a video.

BUT, at the end of ASM #700, their minds are linked again. And Peter Parker's consciousness kicks it up a notch. He forces Octavius to actually live through those memories, essentially living Peter Parker's entire life. Completely. He pulls an Aladdin. You want to be Spider-Man? You get everything that comes with it. By forcing Octavius to actually live his entire life, he makes Otto become Peter Parker. This isn't a clone. This isn't a symbiotic relationship. This isn't two minds in one body.

Superior Spider-Man is going to be Doctor Octopus having lived his entire life and THEN ON TOP OF THAT having lived Peter Parker's entire life. At the core of it, Peter Parker is still alive in a way. His consciousness, his memories, everything that we know about him from the 50 year run of Amazing Spider-Man is going to be there. If your thoughts and memories and experiences are who you are then this. is. still. Peter Parker.

Meanwhile, the original one that we've read first-hand has finally received his rest. He gets to die and be at peace. It wasn't that Octavius beat him physically and outsmarted him completely. Yes, he was on death's door and yes he wasn't going to be able to beat Ock. Yes. He is dead. But before his death, he did something he's never done before. By forcing Octavius to live as him, he didn't just beat the villain again. He didn't just do the same thing he's done for 50 years of comics and out-punch, out-smart, and out-last the villain. He made the villain become him completely.

Honestly, it's the most beautiful ending I could think of. Peter Parker goes to heaven or Valhalla or whatever peaceful afterlife you can think of. He retires, along with his comic series itself, and ascends. And it's because he does something truly great. He saves Otto Octavius and gives him a second chance, a chance to continue doing good and even do better as Spider-Man. Meanwhile, Otto Octavius' body is dead, his deeds are dead, his villainous ways are dead, and all is forgiven. With Octavius' body dying with Peter's mind in it, both are saved. Peter can rest, and the legacy of Doc Ock is no more.

Now Peter lives within Ock's mind- no...Peter is Ock's mind. There isn't going to be any battle of consciousness or extraction...they are absolutely the same person. It's still Peter, but it has to deal with Ock's need to be heroic, to truly earn his title as Superior. Because now that he is two in one, and now that he has sworn to be the best Peter Parker he can be, he still needs to earn it. The new series is going to be about this new Peter Parker who has all the potential to be the greatest superhero with the greatest mind and the strongest will, one who could eclipse the Amazing Spider-Man. BUT that's the thing...he could. That doesn't mean he automatically does. Superior Spider-Man now has to look back on a lifetime of evil followed by a lifetime of good and be better than both put together.

Needless to say, I think it could be a great series. That being said, like its title character, it has to work extraordinarily hard to earn it.
 
2012-12-27 02:45:15 PM

Zapruder: The new series really should be called Existential Spider-Man.

What is your consciousness if not all of your memories, footsteps, and live leading up to this moment? Who exactly are you? In ASM #698, when the body switch was revealed, Octo-Spidey straight up told Peter-in-Oct's-body "I have all of your memories, and you have all of mine." At that point, the two could look back and remember the other's life, like watching a video.

BUT, at the end of ASM #700, their minds are linked again. And Peter Parker's consciousness kicks it up a notch. He forces Octavius to actually live through those memories, essentially living Peter Parker's entire life. Completely. He pulls an Aladdin. You want to be Spider-Man? You get everything that comes with it. By forcing Octavius to actually live his entire life, he makes Otto become Peter Parker. This isn't a clone. This isn't a symbiotic relationship. This isn't two minds in one body.

Superior Spider-Man is going to be Doctor Octopus having lived his entire life and THEN ON TOP OF THAT having lived Peter Parker's entire life. At the core of it, Peter Parker is still alive in a way. His consciousness, his memories, everything that we know about him from the 50 year run of Amazing Spider-Man is going to be there. If your thoughts and memories and experiences are who you are then this. is. still. Peter Parker.

Meanwhile, the original one that we've read first-hand has finally received his rest. He gets to die and be at peace. It wasn't that Octavius beat him physically and outsmarted him completely. Yes, he was on death's door and yes he wasn't going to be able to beat Ock. Yes. He is dead. But before his death, he did something he's never done before. By forcing Octavius to live as him, he didn't just beat the villain again. He didn't just do the same thing he's done for 50 years of comics and out-punch, out-smart, and out-last the villain. He made the villain become him completely.

Honestly, it's the most beautiful ending I cou ...


And now we know Dan Slott's Fark handle.
 
2012-12-27 03:11:00 PM

ronin7: Rwa2play: kid_icarus: The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?

Anybody who even tries to compare this dreck with "Kraven's Last Hunt" should have their eyes poked out. Not even kidding with this either; at least "KLH" didn't treat the readers as idiots.

Heard someone try to compare it to Dick Grayson taking over the role as Batman after final crisis. I rolled my eyes and tried to explain it was more like the Joker taking over the role of Bruce Wayne after murdering Bruce Wayne...


Yeah, that's more apropo with the added remorse by The Joker....

Oh God that just makes this look even worse~! Holy crap this is fubarific.

And yes I have read all of JMS and Dan Slott's runs on Amazing. And yes I normally like Slott, but this is just.... I don't know, but I have no interesting in reading about the adventures of SpOck.

I LOVED his She-Hulk run...Good Christ I think he caught whatever Geoff Johns' got; whatever it is, it's farking contagious. Turns good/great writers to farking hacks.
 
2012-12-27 03:50:31 PM

ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.


I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.
 
2012-12-27 04:47:02 PM

MetaCarpal: ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.

I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.


That WOULD explain why Arcade is so ridiculously powerful, now.
 
2012-12-27 04:49:07 PM

texdent: NeoCortex42: FinFangFark: NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.

I guess that was inevitable to tie in with the movies, but was there a decent in-universe explanation? Is Black Fury moving to the 616 universe and leaving Ultimate? Or is Fury just going to be black in all his incarnations now?

I don't know why he moved to the Ultimate verse but the reason why there's a black Fury in the main Marvel verse is because it was recently revealed that Fury had a black kid whose real name was Nick Fury Jr and then old Nick started to go by Phil Coulson


That sounds terrible and completely unnecessary.

Oh well. It's still not as bad as when DC decides to reset their universe.
 
2012-12-27 05:00:43 PM

ZeroCorpse: MetaCarpal: ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.

I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.

That WOULD explain why Arcade is so ridiculously powerful, now.



Indeed it would. I'm about half-expecting Death Locket to be the one to figure it out.
 
2012-12-27 05:10:40 PM
So in Avenging Spider-Man 15.1, OttoPeter makes changes to the costume. Here's what he did:

i.imgur.com

The eye lenses are now advanced optics. They can change focus, and have a variety of optical effects including what looks like a targeting system. One would assume he also built in night vision, zoom functions, and other handy optics that both Ock and Green Goblin have had in their lenses for a while now.

The boots are now tabi boots, to allow more flexibility with the toe and the new toe-claw (to work in tandem with his newly-learned kung fu. He trained with Shang Chi recently.)

The gloves now have claws on the fingertips. I guess this is both offensive, and for those "just in case my powers fail I can still grip the wall" moments. From the way some of the artwork looks, these may be retractable.

The whole costume has been made more durable, with some minor cosmetic changes and some of the high-tech improvements both Peter and Otto had been tinkering with recently. Exactly what changed remains to be seen, but he spent about a week working on it, so I presume he did something nifty.

The web shooters may or may not be adamantium now. He thought about it, but they don't specifically show him making it happen. I'm assuming he's determined enough to find adamantium and make the necessary improvements to the web shooters.

In ASM #700, OttoPeter shows an ability to do things with the web shooters that Peter never thought of. In Avenging Spider-Man #15.1 OttoPeter laments the fact that Parker never applied himself and held back too much, and that he COULD have done all these things but just didn't put his mind to it. He lacked discipline. OttoPeter does not. If anything, OttoPeter is driven to succeed.

All of this doesn't address my one big gripe with Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Venom: EVERY Avenger seems to know who Venom really is (Flash Thompson), and they all know who Spider-Man is, yet Spider-Man and Venom are not aware of each other's identity. They have somehow managed to be the only two Avengers who don't know each other's identity. I was hoping they'd deal with this before ASM #700, and they didn't. They just left this dangling plot point out there to dangle some more.

Look... Flash Thompson IDOLIZED Spider-Man. He knows Spider-Man and has spent time with him. I would think that when he became an Avenger the first thing he would do is reveal his identity to Spider-Man and reassure him that the symbiote is under control (thanks to Pym, Richards, Stark and McCoy) and that he wants to do everything he can to honor what he learned from idolizing Spider-Man. But that didn't happen. Even in big fight scenes when every Avenger was present, somehow Venom and Spider-Man would somehow manage to not be in the same space together.

And that's annoying. I wanted that conversation. I wanted Pete to have to make the choice to reveal his identity to his fellow Avenger, and possibly give him some advice and pointers. I wanted Flash to react to the truth that his friend (and former enemy) Peter was also his teammate, Spider-Man. . . And they robbed me of that moment.

Honestly, how is it Peter has revealed his identity to EVERY Avenger except Flash? How is it that Captain America has introduced Flash, as war hero Flash Thompson aka Agent Venom, to every standing Avenger EXCEPT Spider-Man?

It was just a big screw-you to the readers, and I wish they'd resolved it.
 
2012-12-27 05:26:46 PM

ZeroCorpse: So in Avenging Spider-Man 15.1, OttoPeter makes changes to the costume. Here's what he did:

[i.imgur.com image 850x556]

The eye lenses are now advanced optics. They can change focus, and have a variety of optical effects including what looks like a targeting system. One would assume he also built in night vision, zoom functions, and other handy optics that both Ock and Green Goblin have had in their lenses for a while now.

The boots are now tabi boots, to allow more flexibility with the toe and the new toe-claw (to work in tandem with his newly-learned kung fu. He trained with Shang Chi recently.)

The gloves now have claws on the fingertips. I guess this is both offensive, and for those "just in case my powers fail I can still grip the wall" moments. From the way some of the artwork looks, these may be retractable.

The whole costume has been made more durable, with some minor cosmetic changes and some of the high-tech improvements both Peter and Otto had been tinkering with recently. Exactly what changed remains to be seen, but he spent about a week working on it, so I presume he did something nifty.

The web shooters may or may not be adamantium now. He thought about it, but they don't specifically show him making it happen. I'm assuming he's determined enough to find adamantium and make the necessary improvements to the web shooters.

In ASM #700, OttoPeter shows an ability to do things with the web shooters that Peter never thought of. In Avenging Spider-Man #15.1 OttoPeter laments the fact that Parker never applied himself and held back too much, and that he COULD have done all these things but just didn't put his mind to it. He lacked discipline. OttoPeter does not. If anything, OttoPeter is driven to succeed.

All of this doesn't address my one big gripe with Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Venom: EVERY Avenger seems to know who Venom really is (Flash Thompson), and they all know who Spider-Man is, yet Spider-Man and Venom are not aware of each other's ide ...


I like everything but the claw toe.
 
2012-12-27 06:26:37 PM
They should make Vulture or Dr. Light become Parker.
 
2012-12-27 10:01:29 PM

Shadowtag: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.


I actually just reread the Pete/Grady one just today and I really liked that. And I'd agree that Spider Island was terrible on paper but awesome in execution. I liked Ends of the Earth, but yeah it was a weak follow-up. The thing I liked most about JMS' run was the totemic mysticism and Morlun. I thought Morlun was the best new villain in a VERY long time, but yeah, the Osborn stuff was badly botched (though the kids were ORIGINALLY supposed to be Pete's, but for whatever reason, Marvel Editorial at the time had a MASSIVE bug up their ass about acknowledging Peter and Gwen as being ANY kind of sexual couple...)

NeoCortex42: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

I just started reading the Ed Brubaker run on Captain America for the first time, and am just a few issues away from Cap's death. So far, it's amazing. It has me even more excited for the next Captain America movie than I already was.


Innit GREAT?! Dude totally redeemed the "retcon."

Rwa2play: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Uh, big difference: Captain America didn't restart at #1 IIRC (also: Batman did this as well even though you knew Bruce Wayne would return to the suit).


Who cares about the numbering? And if you wanna get technical: Spidey's relanuching with a new series. They'll pick up the ASM numbering when this is inevitably retconned. And weirdly enough the Batman/Cap "trapped in time/not dead" stories happened within MONTHS of each other...

karasoth: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

That was shiat to


Good contribution!
 
2012-12-27 10:02:15 PM
Aaaaaaaaaand I just realized how unruly that post looks. Don't drink and fark, kids! Or if you do: don't admit to it!

/wait...DAMNIT!
 
2012-12-28 11:22:26 AM
See, this way when they revisit the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly reappears, we'll all be rooting for him to off Peter and take back his life.

Actually, let's put this in real-world perspective. If you believe in the soul as an eternal, ghostly version of a living person that's basically a living person minus the molecules, that it goes to somewhere after you die, but retains its integrity because the body is really just a soul's spray-tan, and that there's a somewhere for souls to go and be together once that spray-tan wears off, then Peter Parker, if he had really existed, was forcibly transplanted into the diseased and faded spray-tan of Otto Octavius and Otto, were he also a real person, took Peter's young, healthy, super-powered spray-tan to wear. Moreover, in some kind of soul frottage, the two having brushed against each other's soul caused their memories, but not personalities, to be copied into each other. Somehow, that makes Otto now a better man, but Peter didn't become an actual villain. Then, since the reverse button didn't get held down long enough, Otto's spray-tan finally faded and Peter's soul floated away while Peter's spray-tan not only stuck to Otto but soaked in. Knowing that people who die in comics that are major characters that still sell well never really die isn't even necessary to know that someone with metaphysical powers is going to figure out what happened and fix things, or the villain-turned-hero will realize the hero deserved to live his life and somehow reverse things (and in a post-Buffy creative world, coupled with Peter Parker being the Burdened Hero there would be something tragic about forcing him to resume a life after having gone to his reward), or the villain-turned-hero will royally screw up and decide to bail into another body, which will either draw the hero's soul back or it will be put back. Or some other Act Of Publisher.

In the real world, if someone got in a big fight or went into a coma or even just had a period resembling depression and came out of it with a different personality and some form of amnesia, after some brain scans and observation, it'd be assumed there had been some transient or permanent brain damage and trauma-related psychological issues. There might be therapy, or if not diagnosed, the people close to the changed individual might not notice, might notice but not care, might notice and care but like the new personality, or might notice and care and not like the new personality, at which point their options would be to bail, to try to inform the person that their new personality isn't the desired one and see if they will change, then bail if they don't, to try to put up with the new personality and possibly steer them back to the preferred behavior, including perhaps staging some form of intervention, or to wait it out and see if they "get better" on their own. (Oh, or my personal favorite, notice and not like the new personality and then try to make everyone else thinks the changed person is just an asshole.) From the affected person's point of view, they may or may not recognize a change, they may or may not like the new version of themself if they do recognize the change, but even if they think they think they're someone else wearing a new body, the rule in the real world is that the heat is where the meat is. You're not a soul in another's body, you're a person with an identity disorder. Reality is already subjective, so it's pretty much the opinion of the majority that makes a collective soft-focus, two-dimensional, abstract objective reality.

In the real world version, Doc Ock died thinking he was Peter Parker, and Peter Parker lives but thinks he's secretly Doctor Octopus with the memories of Peter Parker and Otto Octavius. And that he's also Spider-Man, but a slightly different Spider-Man who does things differently. And who is also a prick. In that real world, either he would go back to acting and thinking like Peter Parker/Spider-Man used to, as far as others were concerned, or he wouldn't. If the former, he'd have "recovered" from his disorder. Then, if he was subtle enough about it, he could add or change his behaviors in a progressive way, the same as we all do, and he'd be given not a moment's notice. People change. It's the sudden changes that frighten us because we need some kind of short-to-medium-term continuity to keep from having our Strangeness Alarms go off. If the latter, then it's still on others to accept him or not, including the readers of his comic books. That's meta for you.

Speaking to the argument for the soul as described in popular Western theology, as an aside, there's a big old flaw in the logic which certainly makes it helpful for those who wish to forgo that path. Assuming that the soul is not merely the animating spirit but also the living consciousness and repository of memory as described above, then if the memory or personality is gone, is the person gone? In the real world, if someone gets a knock on the head and gets amnesia, should we accept that their soul fled their body? If someone gets an experiential or physical brain trauma or has a neurological disease or stroke or tumor or chemical imbalance that alters their capacity for memories or cognition, their behavior or their perceptual abilities do we say they're a different soul and therefore regard them as a pretender? A squatter in someone else's house, as it were? Because then we'd have to say that any time we changed our minds we literally changed our souls. And certainly we can't blame the soul for the body any more than we could blame the body for the soul, right? That would be like holding the child accountable for the parent, even if the child was orphaned at birth. We'd also have to say that the happy baby we were as infants and the bratty kid and the hormone-driven teenager and the overconfident know-it-all college graduate and the devoted parent and the stressed and disillusioned middle-ager, and all the other versions of ourselves up through to our end were all different and distinct minds passing through the keyhole shaped like us, just like how our bodies are molecules passing through the keyhole shaped like us. That's a double-sided Ship Of Theseus conundrum. With only a momentary spiritual/corporal convergence, how could there be more than a momentary moral, ethical or spiritual culpability? You can't have it both ways and call it right or just from either a subjective or objective standpoint.
 
2012-12-28 01:36:46 PM

Grotesk: [a lot of good text]


Also, they could just have God draw Spider-Man back to life. Won't be the first time.

i.crackedcdn.com
 
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