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(Newsarama)   We've not-so-secretly replaced Amazing Spider-Man with Superior Spider-Man. Let's see if anyone notices (SPOILERS)   (newsarama.com) divider line 63
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4999 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Dec 2012 at 8:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-27 02:45:15 PM

Zapruder: The new series really should be called Existential Spider-Man.

What is your consciousness if not all of your memories, footsteps, and live leading up to this moment? Who exactly are you? In ASM #698, when the body switch was revealed, Octo-Spidey straight up told Peter-in-Oct's-body "I have all of your memories, and you have all of mine." At that point, the two could look back and remember the other's life, like watching a video.

BUT, at the end of ASM #700, their minds are linked again. And Peter Parker's consciousness kicks it up a notch. He forces Octavius to actually live through those memories, essentially living Peter Parker's entire life. Completely. He pulls an Aladdin. You want to be Spider-Man? You get everything that comes with it. By forcing Octavius to actually live his entire life, he makes Otto become Peter Parker. This isn't a clone. This isn't a symbiotic relationship. This isn't two minds in one body.

Superior Spider-Man is going to be Doctor Octopus having lived his entire life and THEN ON TOP OF THAT having lived Peter Parker's entire life. At the core of it, Peter Parker is still alive in a way. His consciousness, his memories, everything that we know about him from the 50 year run of Amazing Spider-Man is going to be there. If your thoughts and memories and experiences are who you are then this. is. still. Peter Parker.

Meanwhile, the original one that we've read first-hand has finally received his rest. He gets to die and be at peace. It wasn't that Octavius beat him physically and outsmarted him completely. Yes, he was on death's door and yes he wasn't going to be able to beat Ock. Yes. He is dead. But before his death, he did something he's never done before. By forcing Octavius to live as him, he didn't just beat the villain again. He didn't just do the same thing he's done for 50 years of comics and out-punch, out-smart, and out-last the villain. He made the villain become him completely.

Honestly, it's the most beautiful ending I cou ...


And now we know Dan Slott's Fark handle.
 
2012-12-27 03:11:00 PM

ronin7: Rwa2play: kid_icarus: The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?

Anybody who even tries to compare this dreck with "Kraven's Last Hunt" should have their eyes poked out. Not even kidding with this either; at least "KLH" didn't treat the readers as idiots.

Heard someone try to compare it to Dick Grayson taking over the role as Batman after final crisis. I rolled my eyes and tried to explain it was more like the Joker taking over the role of Bruce Wayne after murdering Bruce Wayne...


Yeah, that's more apropo with the added remorse by The Joker....

Oh God that just makes this look even worse~! Holy crap this is fubarific.

And yes I have read all of JMS and Dan Slott's runs on Amazing. And yes I normally like Slott, but this is just.... I don't know, but I have no interesting in reading about the adventures of SpOck.

I LOVED his She-Hulk run...Good Christ I think he caught whatever Geoff Johns' got; whatever it is, it's farking contagious. Turns good/great writers to farking hacks.
 
2012-12-27 03:50:31 PM

ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.


I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.
 
2012-12-27 04:47:02 PM

MetaCarpal: ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.

I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.


That WOULD explain why Arcade is so ridiculously powerful, now.
 
2012-12-27 04:49:07 PM

texdent: NeoCortex42: FinFangFark: NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.

I guess that was inevitable to tie in with the movies, but was there a decent in-universe explanation? Is Black Fury moving to the 616 universe and leaving Ultimate? Or is Fury just going to be black in all his incarnations now?

I don't know why he moved to the Ultimate verse but the reason why there's a black Fury in the main Marvel verse is because it was recently revealed that Fury had a black kid whose real name was Nick Fury Jr and then old Nick started to go by Phil Coulson


That sounds terrible and completely unnecessary.

Oh well. It's still not as bad as when DC decides to reset their universe.
 
2012-12-27 05:00:43 PM

ZeroCorpse: MetaCarpal: ZeroCorpse: Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.

I'm enjoying this, but I'm waiting for the big reveal that it's all just virtual reality: Aracade finally realized he can't actually build a Murderworld good enough to beat even C-list heroes, so he makes a VR and throws in kids who don't have enough experience with real reality to discern the difference.

It's an interesting story so far, but (as usual) nobody who dies will stay dead.

That WOULD explain why Arcade is so ridiculously powerful, now.



Indeed it would. I'm about half-expecting Death Locket to be the one to figure it out.
 
2012-12-27 05:10:40 PM
So in Avenging Spider-Man 15.1, OttoPeter makes changes to the costume. Here's what he did:

i.imgur.com

The eye lenses are now advanced optics. They can change focus, and have a variety of optical effects including what looks like a targeting system. One would assume he also built in night vision, zoom functions, and other handy optics that both Ock and Green Goblin have had in their lenses for a while now.

The boots are now tabi boots, to allow more flexibility with the toe and the new toe-claw (to work in tandem with his newly-learned kung fu. He trained with Shang Chi recently.)

The gloves now have claws on the fingertips. I guess this is both offensive, and for those "just in case my powers fail I can still grip the wall" moments. From the way some of the artwork looks, these may be retractable.

The whole costume has been made more durable, with some minor cosmetic changes and some of the high-tech improvements both Peter and Otto had been tinkering with recently. Exactly what changed remains to be seen, but he spent about a week working on it, so I presume he did something nifty.

The web shooters may or may not be adamantium now. He thought about it, but they don't specifically show him making it happen. I'm assuming he's determined enough to find adamantium and make the necessary improvements to the web shooters.

In ASM #700, OttoPeter shows an ability to do things with the web shooters that Peter never thought of. In Avenging Spider-Man #15.1 OttoPeter laments the fact that Parker never applied himself and held back too much, and that he COULD have done all these things but just didn't put his mind to it. He lacked discipline. OttoPeter does not. If anything, OttoPeter is driven to succeed.

All of this doesn't address my one big gripe with Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Venom: EVERY Avenger seems to know who Venom really is (Flash Thompson), and they all know who Spider-Man is, yet Spider-Man and Venom are not aware of each other's identity. They have somehow managed to be the only two Avengers who don't know each other's identity. I was hoping they'd deal with this before ASM #700, and they didn't. They just left this dangling plot point out there to dangle some more.

Look... Flash Thompson IDOLIZED Spider-Man. He knows Spider-Man and has spent time with him. I would think that when he became an Avenger the first thing he would do is reveal his identity to Spider-Man and reassure him that the symbiote is under control (thanks to Pym, Richards, Stark and McCoy) and that he wants to do everything he can to honor what he learned from idolizing Spider-Man. But that didn't happen. Even in big fight scenes when every Avenger was present, somehow Venom and Spider-Man would somehow manage to not be in the same space together.

And that's annoying. I wanted that conversation. I wanted Pete to have to make the choice to reveal his identity to his fellow Avenger, and possibly give him some advice and pointers. I wanted Flash to react to the truth that his friend (and former enemy) Peter was also his teammate, Spider-Man. . . And they robbed me of that moment.

Honestly, how is it Peter has revealed his identity to EVERY Avenger except Flash? How is it that Captain America has introduced Flash, as war hero Flash Thompson aka Agent Venom, to every standing Avenger EXCEPT Spider-Man?

It was just a big screw-you to the readers, and I wish they'd resolved it.
 
2012-12-27 05:26:46 PM

ZeroCorpse: So in Avenging Spider-Man 15.1, OttoPeter makes changes to the costume. Here's what he did:

[i.imgur.com image 850x556]

The eye lenses are now advanced optics. They can change focus, and have a variety of optical effects including what looks like a targeting system. One would assume he also built in night vision, zoom functions, and other handy optics that both Ock and Green Goblin have had in their lenses for a while now.

The boots are now tabi boots, to allow more flexibility with the toe and the new toe-claw (to work in tandem with his newly-learned kung fu. He trained with Shang Chi recently.)

The gloves now have claws on the fingertips. I guess this is both offensive, and for those "just in case my powers fail I can still grip the wall" moments. From the way some of the artwork looks, these may be retractable.

The whole costume has been made more durable, with some minor cosmetic changes and some of the high-tech improvements both Peter and Otto had been tinkering with recently. Exactly what changed remains to be seen, but he spent about a week working on it, so I presume he did something nifty.

The web shooters may or may not be adamantium now. He thought about it, but they don't specifically show him making it happen. I'm assuming he's determined enough to find adamantium and make the necessary improvements to the web shooters.

In ASM #700, OttoPeter shows an ability to do things with the web shooters that Peter never thought of. In Avenging Spider-Man #15.1 OttoPeter laments the fact that Parker never applied himself and held back too much, and that he COULD have done all these things but just didn't put his mind to it. He lacked discipline. OttoPeter does not. If anything, OttoPeter is driven to succeed.

All of this doesn't address my one big gripe with Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Venom: EVERY Avenger seems to know who Venom really is (Flash Thompson), and they all know who Spider-Man is, yet Spider-Man and Venom are not aware of each other's ide ...


I like everything but the claw toe.
 
2012-12-27 06:26:37 PM
They should make Vulture or Dr. Light become Parker.
 
2012-12-27 10:01:29 PM

Shadowtag: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.


I actually just reread the Pete/Grady one just today and I really liked that. And I'd agree that Spider Island was terrible on paper but awesome in execution. I liked Ends of the Earth, but yeah it was a weak follow-up. The thing I liked most about JMS' run was the totemic mysticism and Morlun. I thought Morlun was the best new villain in a VERY long time, but yeah, the Osborn stuff was badly botched (though the kids were ORIGINALLY supposed to be Pete's, but for whatever reason, Marvel Editorial at the time had a MASSIVE bug up their ass about acknowledging Peter and Gwen as being ANY kind of sexual couple...)

NeoCortex42: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

I just started reading the Ed Brubaker run on Captain America for the first time, and am just a few issues away from Cap's death. So far, it's amazing. It has me even more excited for the next Captain America movie than I already was.


Innit GREAT?! Dude totally redeemed the "retcon."

Rwa2play: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Uh, big difference: Captain America didn't restart at #1 IIRC (also: Batman did this as well even though you knew Bruce Wayne would return to the suit).


Who cares about the numbering? And if you wanna get technical: Spidey's relanuching with a new series. They'll pick up the ASM numbering when this is inevitably retconned. And weirdly enough the Batman/Cap "trapped in time/not dead" stories happened within MONTHS of each other...

karasoth: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

That was shiat to


Good contribution!
 
2012-12-27 10:02:15 PM
Aaaaaaaaaand I just realized how unruly that post looks. Don't drink and fark, kids! Or if you do: don't admit to it!

/wait...DAMNIT!
 
2012-12-28 11:22:26 AM
See, this way when they revisit the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly reappears, we'll all be rooting for him to off Peter and take back his life.

Actually, let's put this in real-world perspective. If you believe in the soul as an eternal, ghostly version of a living person that's basically a living person minus the molecules, that it goes to somewhere after you die, but retains its integrity because the body is really just a soul's spray-tan, and that there's a somewhere for souls to go and be together once that spray-tan wears off, then Peter Parker, if he had really existed, was forcibly transplanted into the diseased and faded spray-tan of Otto Octavius and Otto, were he also a real person, took Peter's young, healthy, super-powered spray-tan to wear. Moreover, in some kind of soul frottage, the two having brushed against each other's soul caused their memories, but not personalities, to be copied into each other. Somehow, that makes Otto now a better man, but Peter didn't become an actual villain. Then, since the reverse button didn't get held down long enough, Otto's spray-tan finally faded and Peter's soul floated away while Peter's spray-tan not only stuck to Otto but soaked in. Knowing that people who die in comics that are major characters that still sell well never really die isn't even necessary to know that someone with metaphysical powers is going to figure out what happened and fix things, or the villain-turned-hero will realize the hero deserved to live his life and somehow reverse things (and in a post-Buffy creative world, coupled with Peter Parker being the Burdened Hero there would be something tragic about forcing him to resume a life after having gone to his reward), or the villain-turned-hero will royally screw up and decide to bail into another body, which will either draw the hero's soul back or it will be put back. Or some other Act Of Publisher.

In the real world, if someone got in a big fight or went into a coma or even just had a period resembling depression and came out of it with a different personality and some form of amnesia, after some brain scans and observation, it'd be assumed there had been some transient or permanent brain damage and trauma-related psychological issues. There might be therapy, or if not diagnosed, the people close to the changed individual might not notice, might notice but not care, might notice and care but like the new personality, or might notice and care and not like the new personality, at which point their options would be to bail, to try to inform the person that their new personality isn't the desired one and see if they will change, then bail if they don't, to try to put up with the new personality and possibly steer them back to the preferred behavior, including perhaps staging some form of intervention, or to wait it out and see if they "get better" on their own. (Oh, or my personal favorite, notice and not like the new personality and then try to make everyone else thinks the changed person is just an asshole.) From the affected person's point of view, they may or may not recognize a change, they may or may not like the new version of themself if they do recognize the change, but even if they think they think they're someone else wearing a new body, the rule in the real world is that the heat is where the meat is. You're not a soul in another's body, you're a person with an identity disorder. Reality is already subjective, so it's pretty much the opinion of the majority that makes a collective soft-focus, two-dimensional, abstract objective reality.

In the real world version, Doc Ock died thinking he was Peter Parker, and Peter Parker lives but thinks he's secretly Doctor Octopus with the memories of Peter Parker and Otto Octavius. And that he's also Spider-Man, but a slightly different Spider-Man who does things differently. And who is also a prick. In that real world, either he would go back to acting and thinking like Peter Parker/Spider-Man used to, as far as others were concerned, or he wouldn't. If the former, he'd have "recovered" from his disorder. Then, if he was subtle enough about it, he could add or change his behaviors in a progressive way, the same as we all do, and he'd be given not a moment's notice. People change. It's the sudden changes that frighten us because we need some kind of short-to-medium-term continuity to keep from having our Strangeness Alarms go off. If the latter, then it's still on others to accept him or not, including the readers of his comic books. That's meta for you.

Speaking to the argument for the soul as described in popular Western theology, as an aside, there's a big old flaw in the logic which certainly makes it helpful for those who wish to forgo that path. Assuming that the soul is not merely the animating spirit but also the living consciousness and repository of memory as described above, then if the memory or personality is gone, is the person gone? In the real world, if someone gets a knock on the head and gets amnesia, should we accept that their soul fled their body? If someone gets an experiential or physical brain trauma or has a neurological disease or stroke or tumor or chemical imbalance that alters their capacity for memories or cognition, their behavior or their perceptual abilities do we say they're a different soul and therefore regard them as a pretender? A squatter in someone else's house, as it were? Because then we'd have to say that any time we changed our minds we literally changed our souls. And certainly we can't blame the soul for the body any more than we could blame the body for the soul, right? That would be like holding the child accountable for the parent, even if the child was orphaned at birth. We'd also have to say that the happy baby we were as infants and the bratty kid and the hormone-driven teenager and the overconfident know-it-all college graduate and the devoted parent and the stressed and disillusioned middle-ager, and all the other versions of ourselves up through to our end were all different and distinct minds passing through the keyhole shaped like us, just like how our bodies are molecules passing through the keyhole shaped like us. That's a double-sided Ship Of Theseus conundrum. With only a momentary spiritual/corporal convergence, how could there be more than a momentary moral, ethical or spiritual culpability? You can't have it both ways and call it right or just from either a subjective or objective standpoint.
 
2012-12-28 01:36:46 PM

Grotesk: [a lot of good text]


Also, they could just have God draw Spider-Man back to life. Won't be the first time.

i.crackedcdn.com
 
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