Honest Bender: "How do you get more Peter Parker than that? Now the readers think he's a menace. That's exciting. On a meta level, that is Spider-Man."

Peter Parker is Spider-Man. THAT is Spider-Man. What we have here is a big heaping helping of turd.

Who will be banging Mary Jane. And getting goodbye kisses, after a family meal, from a geriatric aunt he was married to (and possibly had sex with).

/Happy dreams

Worst. Idea. Ever.

At least it's creative.

TheManofPA: Here's our third thread to discuss this.

What a ton of CRAP

I don't care if Mary Jane jumps off the page and gives me a blowjob, I'm not buying it. Quite literally. Peter Parker dying in the cancer riddled body of an old man while Doctor Octopus gets to bang Mary Jane in the body of a super-hero in his prime is simply unacceptable.

Good thing I dropped Spiderman after One More Day. I thought it was going to be shiat from there on out, and it seems I keep getting proved right. First the sidekick, now this.

Well it still sounds better than the Clone Saga. As long as Doc Spidey doesn't wear a torn hoodie I'll give it a shot.

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

That was shiat to

So is the SpiderMan in the Avengers now the Doc Ock one, or is it Peter Parker before he switches minds with the doctor?

TheManofPA: Here's our thread to discuss this. As I posted in the redlit one: They should just get 80s style wacky and say it is REALLY A clone of Doc Ock....from a parallel universe in space.

...who is the Beyonder posing as a Skull copy of a clone of Doc Ock... And ooh, I've gone cross eyed

Read it today. I found it underwhelming, and yet kind of upsetting at the same time. Watching Peter die and be replaced by his worst enemy is not exactly a fun thing to read. It's not often you see the bad-guy win on such a total complete level.

On the other hand, it is a novel twist at least. But Ock just murdered Spider-Man and is essentially going to be raping Mary Jane for the next year at least - and this is the guy Marvel wants me to follow and purchase multiple books to see how his story plays out?

Plus, Mary Jane was such a dim-witted punching bag in this story. Nothing but a brainless reactive blow-up doll fantasy-girlfriend:

Fake Ock-Peter: "Shut up woman; I've got some science stuff do do."
Dumbass Mary Jane: "Ok honey."

Fake Ock-Peter: "Why do you always yammer at me with the same inane pep-talk, woman?"
Dumbass Mary Jane: "But... Peter, I've just realized at this very moment that I'm in love with you (again)!"

I kept waiting for her to notice at some point that Peter was treating her like shiat, but she was completely oblivious - and worse - she seemed just fine with it.

It's these kind of dumb, poorly written stunt-stories that make me realize I really am too old to be reading this shiat.

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.

Spockerpus.


It's settled.

I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other... And Arcade's serious this time. After his horrible win/loss record, he's not fooling around. He has become ridiculously powerful and has made it clear that the kids can't fight him, and that if they don't fight he'll simply kill them all on a whim. If they play his game, one will walk away from the experience. By issue #3 the death toll makes it clear this will be a grim, story-driven book.

Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.

subtlehavok: At least it's creative.

This.

That being said, I am skeptical that they would ever make this truly permanent. In the meantime we get to see a tale of redemption for Doc Ock. I dunno about you, but I found that one of the most compelling parts of the second Spider-Man movie. I LIKE watching a bad guy turn good, not overnight but slowly.

I think people would be less butthurt about this if it was a spinoff imprint of some variety. Rather bold that they've chosen to do this in the main imprint of the comics, although from what I hear the writing has justified it.

Max Awesome: Read it today. I found it underwhelming, and yet kind of upsetting at the same time. Watching Peter die and be replaced by his worst enemy is not exactly a fun thing to read. It's not often you see the bad-guy win on such a total complete level.

On the other hand, it is a novel twist at least. But Ock just murdered Spider-Man and is essentially going to be raping Mary Jane for the next year at least - and this is the guy Marvel wants me to follow and purchase multiple books to see how his story plays out?

Plus, Mary Jane was such a dim-witted punching bag in this story. Nothing but a brainless reactive blow-up doll fantasy-girlfriend:

Fake Ock-Peter: "Shut up woman; I've got some science stuff do do."
Dumbass Mary Jane: "Ok honey."

Fake Ock-Peter: "Why do you always yammer at me with the same inane pep-talk, woman?"
Dumbass Mary Jane: "But... Peter, I've just realized at this very moment that I'm in love with you (again)!"

I kept waiting for her to notice at some point that Peter was treating her like shiat, but she was completely oblivious - and worse - she seemed just fine with it.

It's these kind of dumb, poorly written stunt-stories that make me realize I really am too old to be reading this shiat.

Try the asian (Korea is producing some great stuff) comics. If you can ignore some of the more bizarre anatomical oddities (She's 17 and has size ZZZZ breasts perkier than an A cup could dream of!), some of the comics are good and short-ish. I favored the 100-200 issue stories myself. Explore some interesting things. I have no clue where to find them anymore, they used to be prolific but then American/Asian companies got publishing rights all sorted out and the stuff poofed to more secluded sites like real illegal downloads.

I've said it before, but I think continually writing the same character for, what, 70 years now? is a serious problem. There's no real growth or change, and everyone knows that killing off a major character is simply going to be retconned next week or month either when a new installment goes in, or when the person rises from the grave or was never dead or etc. etc. etc. We know what his powers are, how they work, who everyone is, who the villains are, and how they all interlock.

please, someone go "reorg" over at Marvel, make sure you get Mr. Q

And this is one reason that I have stopped reading comics. Makes the storylines from WWE Raw look believable.

Shadowtag: Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

Having read the issue and the lead-up, this is at least good, maybe even excellent, and considering Dan Slott is the best Spider-Man writer in a LONG time (and I liked large swaths of JMS' run), I'm willing to let him drive the car.

Spider-Island was way better than it had any right to be. Ends of the Earth not so much.

I liked the two parter where Pete and Grady have to stop the world from ending because Grady turned the break room into a Time Tunnel. And I did enjoy bits and pieces of JMS' run. Mostly the two-parters such as Loki and the little girl in his honors bio class. Once he joined the Avengers, I got pretty turned off. When that crap about Norman's children rolled in, I dropped the book.

Spider Island was just darling awful. Like, drop this book and run awful.

The best out Marvel has for this is - It's not Ock, it's brainwashed Parker. I.e., Ock tried to swap minds and failed, as mad scientists often do. Instead, he brainwashed Parker into thinking he's Ock, and Ock accidentally brainwashed himself into thinking he's Parker. So Ock died under his delusion, and Parker is now walking around thinking he's Ock. And all it would take is a contrived plot device like a bump on the head/electric shock/telepath to realize, "Hey Spidey, you're like, f"ed up" and set him straight,

Anything else veers head first into creepy rape by deception territory, which I honestly don't put past Marvel these days.

Possible contender for the new Doc Ock?

ZeroCorpse: Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.

I dropped the book approximately well over 12 years ago, because of clone saga. It sounds like I've missed one stupid storyline after another.

ZeroCorpse: I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kill each other ...

Don't forget Uncanny Avengers...because The Avengers made a billion dollars in the movie theater, they need to tie in everything to the Avengers now, much like everything was around the X-men in the early 2000s after those movies hit.

The Marvel Now! is a weak attempt at their answer to the New 52.  I said this in the other thread, rebooting Uncanny X-Force, and starting a second X-Force title with Cable are a bit odd to me.  But yeah, Peter Parker will be back when the second movie hits.

Will they retcon Elektro in the comics and change him to a black guy, like they are removing white Nick Fury in the 616 realm to make room for black Fury?

ZeroCorpse: Oh, and anybody still complaining about One More Day which took place 156 issues ago, who claims they dropped the book at that time has no right to say anything about Spider-Man comics.

156 issues is approximately 12 years' worth of comics in the old 13-issues-per-year format. Slott and company have been cranking out Spider-Man stories--- GOOD Spider-Man stories-- at least twice a month since OMD. OMD is not at issue here, and it was ultimately a good thing, as it cleared the way for some of the best issues of ASM in the past twenty years.

Slott's taking a huge risk with this Otto/Peter thing. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he sure as shiat has been writing circles around JMS's crap, and has done an admirable job fixing a lot of JMS's stupid retcons and redesigns of the character. The past 156 issues have been the Spider-Man I know and love.

I have read all 700 issues of ASM, plus about 99% of the annuals (I might have missed one here or there). There have been ups and downs, highs and lows, and OMD might have been a low point, but it was immediately followed by some fantastic writing that stayed generally consistent for 12 years' worth of stories by the old Marvel printing schedule.

So yes, I'm giving Superior Spider-Man a chance.

Having read Spiderman since the 80s:

#1) This is not GOOD spider-man. In fact most marvel comics are practically unreadable. About once every two months I go into yee old comic book shop (where I go for Role Playing Game and Magic the gathering related goodness) and I check out the comic books I used to love. I skim through them till I get to sad and I put them back on the shelf. There is a reason the comic movies and tv shows are using modified versions of 80s and 90s storylines to advance their projects.... its because the 21st century has been just awful for comics
#2) There is the fact OM/BND and this really do terrible things to the character of Mary Jane. They have been working hard to try to make me dislike the character
#3) I agree with another Old Comic reader in this thread: Spider-Man has been going down hill with unimaginative garbage since the Clone Saga

I don't read comics, but I rejoice a little when a super-hero dies and people freak out.

I'm thinking, "Oh, you thought dressing up in a funny costume and going to fight criminals with guns, while not using guns yourself would be SAFE?"

The only unrealistic part is all the comics in which Spiderman DOESN'T die.

Empty Matchbook: Has anyone talking shiat actually read the issue? How about the issues leading up to it?? This is like when they killed Captain America, people rushed to comic book stores to buy the issue and were then massively disappointed because they didn't bother reading the 24 issues that led UP TO IT.

I just started reading the Ed Brubaker run on Captain America for the first time, and am just a few issues away from Cap's death. So far, it's amazing. It has me even more excited for the next Captain America movie than I already was.

FinFangFark: ZeroCorpse: I will give this time and see what they do with Superior Spider-Man. I would have rather seen some other villain get Spidey's body and memories (like, oh, Norman Osborn or Miles Warren, or maybe some complete loser like Mysterio), but I think this has some potential. After reading Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 and seeing some of Otto's innovations with Spidey's costume and gadgets, I think this may be a cool way to improve Spider-Man without making some sort of radical change in Parker's core beliefs and ideals. When Pete comes back (and he will, because all they really need to do is force Ock out of Pete's brain) he's going to have better gadgets, a better costume, and some new tactics that he will probably keep.

I'm stunned, though, that we keep getting threads on this Marvel Now! title, and not on the two that are really kicking all sorts of ass: All-New X-Men, and Avengers Arena.

All-New X-Men is a great premise: Scott Summers is a dick. He killed Professor X and is hanging around with Magneto, Illyana (demon sorceress mutant) and the White Queen, trying to form a mutant revolution. Hank McCoy is pissed about Charles, and he's undergoing yet another mutation which might kill him, so when Ice Man says, off-hand, that he wishes Cyclops could meet his younger self to see what he has become, Beast decides that he'll arrange it... And he brings the original five teenaged X-Men forward to the present to confront Scott. They're horrified by everything they see. Jean's dead in the future. Scott joined Magneto and killed Xavier. Henry is blue, furry, and has a cat face. Iceman is all jagged and weird. The teenagers think the world has gone completely backwards... And they're stuck here for the time being.

Avengers Arena is another cool idea. It's essentially Battle Royale with superhero kids. Some of the Runaways, some of the Avengers Academy kids, some of the Braddock Academy kids... All kidnapped by a super-amped-up Arcade and dropped on a hidden place to kil ...

Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.

subtlehavok: At least it's creative.

How the hell is this a defense? Creative =/= worth reading

For Fark sake insufferable "performance art" is creative too.

FinFangFark: NeoCortex42: Trocadero: Not only that, but White Nick Fury is now running HYRDA in the Ultimate Universe, trying to kill Ultimate President Captain America.

Wait, what? I thought the Ultimate Universe was completely separate from the rest of Marvel. How did White Fury get there?

Disney.

Had to swap them out.  Can't have a white Fury in regularly continuity when you sold the masses a black Fury.  Yes, I know, it's farking retarded.

I guess that was inevitable to tie in with the movies, but was there a decent in-universe explanation? Is Black Fury moving to the 616 universe and leaving Ultimate? Or is Fury just going to be black in all his incarnations now?

Rwa2play: kid_icarus: The whole premise of this storyline is farking creepy. So Dr. O steals Peter's body...Peter farking dies inside Otto's old body...and Otto literally takes over his life? Interacting with his family, banging his girlfriend?? That's...disturbing on a lot of levels. And they expect fans to buy these new SSM comics and actually cheer for the body-snatching murderer of the former Spider-Man?

Anybody who even tries to compare this dreck with "Kraven's Last Hunt" should have their eyes poked out. Not even kidding with this either; at least "KLH" didn't treat the readers as idiots.

Heard someone try to compare it to Dick Grayson taking over the role as Batman after final crisis. I rolled my eyes and tried to explain it was more like the Joker taking over the role of Bruce Wayne after murdering Bruce Wayne...

And yes I have read all of JMS and Dan Slott's runs on Amazing. And yes I normally like Slott, but this is just.... I don't know, but I have no interesting in reading about the adventures of SpOck.

The new series really should be called Existential Spider-Man.

What is your consciousness if not all of your memories, footsteps, and live leading up to this moment? Who exactly are you? In ASM #698, when the body switch was revealed, Octo-Spidey straight up told Peter-in-Oct's-body "I have all of your memories, and you have all of mine." At that point, the two could look back and remember the other's life, like watching a video.

BUT, at the end of ASM #700, their minds are linked again. And Peter Parker's consciousness kicks it up a notch. He forces Octavius to actually live through those memories, essentially living Peter Parker's entire life. Completely. He pulls an Aladdin. You want to be Spider-Man? You get everything that comes with it. By forcing Octavius to actually live his entire life, he makes Otto become Peter Parker. This isn't a clone. This isn't a symbiotic relationship. This isn't two minds in one body.

Superior Spider-Man is going to be Doctor Octopus having lived his entire life and THEN ON TOP OF THAT having lived Peter Parker's entire life. At the core of it, Peter Parker is still alive in a way. His consciousness, his memories, everything that we know about him from the 50 year run of Amazing Spider-Man is going to be there. If your thoughts and memories and experiences are who you are then this. is. still. Peter Parker.

Meanwhile, the original one that we've read first-hand has finally received his rest. He gets to die and be at peace. It wasn't that Octavius beat him physically and outsmarted him completely. Yes, he was on death's door and yes he wasn't going to be able to beat Ock. Yes. He is dead. But before his death, he did something he's never done before. By forcing Octavius to live as him, he didn't just beat the villain again. He didn't just do the same thing he's done for 50 years of comics and out-punch, out-smart, and out-last the villain. He made the villain become him completely.

Honestly, it's the most beautiful ending I could think of. Peter Parker goes to heaven or Valhalla or whatever peaceful afterlife you can think of. He retires, along with his comic series itself, and ascends. And it's because he does something truly great. He saves Otto Octavius and gives him a second chance, a chance to continue doing good and even do better as Spider-Man. Meanwhile, Otto Octavius' body is dead, his deeds are dead, his villainous ways are dead, and all is forgiven. With Octavius' body dying with Peter's mind in it, both are saved. Peter can rest, and the legacy of Doc Ock is no more.

Now Peter lives within Ock's mind- no...Peter is Ock's mind. There isn't going to be any battle of consciousness or extraction...they are absolutely the same person. It's still Peter, but it has to deal with Ock's need to be heroic, to truly earn his title as Superior. Because now that he is two in one, and now that he has sworn to be the best Peter Parker he can be, he still needs to earn it. The new series is going to be about this new Peter Parker who has all the potential to be the greatest superhero with the greatest mind and the strongest will, one who could eclipse the Amazing Spider-Man. BUT that's the thing...he could. That doesn't mean he automatically does. Superior Spider-Man now has to look back on a lifetime of evil followed by a lifetime of good and be better than both put together.

Needless to say, I think it could be a great series. That being said, like its title character, it has to work extraordinarily hard to earn it.