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(Telegraph)   With the Red Menace over, The Doctor is sad because he has to star in his own show again. Will Intergalactic Lesbians, a redesigned TARDIS, and his new companion's lovely Dalek Bumps be enough to cheer him up in Doctor Who: "The Snowmen"?   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 310
    More: Interesting, Doctor Who, Intergalactic Lesbians, Dalek Bumps, physicians, Victorian London, Weeping Angels, Emmerdale, Strictly Come Dancing  
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5358 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Dec 2012 at 12:00 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-26 03:23:25 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: Titanius Anglesmith: Bloody William: Titanius Anglesmith: Strax is awesome. He needs his own spinoff

I know Moffat's already doing Sherlock, but Strax, Vastra, and Jenny need to have their own spin-off where they're a Sherlock Holmes/Sarah Jane Smith crew that solves bizarre crimes and threats. I would subscribe to cable again if I could get that on BBCA.

I'd be down for that too.

The only thing stopping that would be the ongoing expense of the makeup for Lady Vastra.


I've thought of that. Probably way too much... Simply have the Doctor give her a gizmo that makes her appear human, so Neve McIntoch can just appear as herself most of the time and only have her 'true form' maybe a couple of times an episode. You'd probably need to do that purely for time reasons since the lead actor in a show having to spend hours a day in makeup would cause huge problems.
 
2012-12-26 03:27:14 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: FirstNationalBastard: One thing... so Strax is alive again? It's not just Strax from a time before he died, but a resurrected Strax? And the only negative effect of his resurrection is that he finds it difficult to count to himself?

This didn't happen onscreen, did it?


No, he was assumed to have permanently died in Rory's arms -- his last words being a response to Rory reminding him that he is a warrior, "Rory, I'm a nurse," presumably unaware of the Last Centurion's identical dual nature.


I figure this could just be earlier in their timeline.
 
2012-12-26 03:29:12 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: HopScotchNSoda: DjangoStonereaver: The only thing stopping that would be the ongoing expense of the makeup for Lady Vastra.
Moreover, period pieces are considerably more expensive than contemporary settings, what with props, set dressing, costumes, and hiding the anachronisms when shooting on-location. Right now, the Beeb is working with slashed budgets. Give it a few years before "Tipping the Scales" will be economically viable.

Another valid point, though I think that even with their tighter budgets the number of BBC-produced
dramas set in that time period means that they have standing sets and existing Victorian-era costumes
hand whereas a US-based production doesn't.

Still:  I think that the characters are best if used sparingly.


The BBC don't really have any standing sets, or even many studios, anymore apart from the soaps in year round production. TV Centre has been sold and the sets there with it, though the plan is for a couple of them to be refurbished and back in use in a couple of years. DW and soaps like Casualty are rare in having permanent sets, as well as Eastenders.
Also many "BBC" shows are actually made by indie production companies and they can use any studios or sets they chose. Sherlock, Life On Mars, Spooks, Merlin, all made by indies.
 
2012-12-26 03:33:16 PM  

Flint Ironstag: DjangoStonereaver: Titanius Anglesmith: Bloody William: Titanius Anglesmith: Strax is awesome. He needs his own spinoff

I know Moffat's already doing Sherlock, but Strax, Vastra, and Jenny need to have their own spin-off where they're a Sherlock Holmes/Sarah Jane Smith crew that solves bizarre crimes and threats. I would subscribe to cable again if I could get that on BBCA.

I'd be down for that too.

The only thing stopping that would be the ongoing expense of the makeup for Lady Vastra.

I've thought of that. Probably way too much... Simply have the Doctor give her a gizmo that makes her appear human, so Neve McIntoch can just appear as herself most of the time and only have her 'true form' maybe a couple of times an episode. You'd probably need to do that purely for time reasons since the lead actor in a show having to spend hours a day in makeup would cause huge problems.


Hmmm......

content8.flixster.com

I agree she should be seen more often.
 
2012-12-26 03:38:23 PM  
img29.imageshack.us

She is rather cute...
 
2012-12-26 04:48:06 PM  

t3knomanser: It looked like they started cheaping out on it a bit this episode, even.


I noticed that too. Besides the fact that her facial makeup already looked a bit different than it did on "A Good Man Goes To War", I noticed a few times where she seemed to have pink lips during the special.

HopScotchNSoda: Yes, they run the risk of over-use. River, as intriguing and fun as she is, was over-used last year. Strax last night was funny, but can you imagine that schtick week after week?


Yeah, it would go pretty stale fast. I also agree with you about River, she was used way too much last year, by the time her episode with the Angels (another over used character) came earlier this year she had lost a bit of her fun and mystery. I did notice in the "Coming Next Year" bit at the end that Strax, Vastra, and Jenny may come back later in the season, as well as Cybermen and maybe Sontarrans (the I saw was wearing regular Sontarran armor.
 
2012-12-26 05:18:52 PM  

t3knomanser: HopScotchNSoda: Conversely, why does Vastra (or any Silurian female for that matter) have boobs? Silurians are not mammals (as she proudly notes).

Which is why, I would argue that Jenny and Vastra aren't lesbians. It's a pedantic argument, but we're discussing Doctor Who, so it's in-bounds.

When we discuss sexual orientation, we are really discussing the affinity towards a certain combination of primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Most people seem to feel that even if someone had a desirable personality, they wouldn't be attracted to someone if that combination of sexual characteristics were not to their liking.

In that context, a lesbian would be a female who is attracted to individuals possessing the primary and secondary sex characteristics of female humans. Despite some similarities, Vastra could not have those characteristics. We see that she has organs similar to mammaries, but they can not possibly be breasts, and I would imagine that upon close examination, they wouldn't trigger the same responses as breasts. Similarly, Vastra likely has an organ similar to a cloaca, which upon close examination could not seem anything like a vagina (especially since it's the endpoint of the reproductive, urinary and digestive tracts).

Similar issues hold true for Vastra.

While they certainly have a same-sex relationship, due to their alien biologies, I would argue that they are not "lesbians" as we would typically conceive of it.

DjangoStonereaver: The only thing stopping that would be the ongoing expense of the makeup for Lady Vastra.

It looked like they started cheaping out on it a bit this episode, even.



I wondered that about the makeup on Vastra as well. I didn't know if it was something new, on the cheap or that I had just gotten a new TV for Christmas that was nearly twice the size of my old one.
 
2012-12-26 05:36:24 PM  
So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.
 
2012-12-26 05:37:30 PM  

t3knomanser: HopScotchNSoda: Conversely, why does Vastra (or any Silurian female for that matter) have boobs? Silurians are not mammals (as she proudly notes).

Which is why, I would argue that Jenny and Vastra aren't lesbians. It's a pedantic argument, but we're discussing Doctor Who, so it's in-bounds.

When we discuss sexual orientation, we are really discussing the affinity towards a certain combination of primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Most people seem to feel that even if someone had a desirable personality, they wouldn't be attracted to someone if that combination of sexual characteristics were not to their liking.

In that context, a lesbian would be a female who is attracted to individuals possessing the primary and secondary sex characteristics of female humans. Despite some similarities, Vastra could not have those characteristics. We see that she has organs similar to mammaries, but they can not possibly be breasts, and I would imagine that upon close examination, they wouldn't trigger the same responses as breasts. Similarly, Vastra likely has an organ similar to a cloaca, which upon close examination could not seem anything like a vagina (especially since it's the endpoint of the reproductive, urinary and digestive tracts).

Similar issues hold true for Vastra.

While they certainly have a same-sex relationship, due to their alien biologies, I would argue that they are not "lesbians" as we would typically conceive of it.



I would have to agree. This does, however, make me wonder exactly what sexual relations between these two would be like. I imagine it's more fun for the human than the reptile, seeing as the human has a clitoris and vulva, and the reptile has an exceptionally interesting tongue. The human also has nipples which are an erogenous zone, while the reptile's bumps that somewhat resemble breasts can't possibly have nipples, since lizards are not mammalian. The reptile would have a cloaca-like organ, I'm sure, and I can't imagine it has the same sensitivity that a clitoris on a human female would, so stimulation of this organ may or may not be pleasant to Vastra (and, remember that the cloaca is also the reptile's sole excretory orifice, so while there may be some stimulation for Vastra, her human companion would have to be okay with essentially licking what could be fairly called the reptile's anus.)

Standard lesbian sexual positions for clitoral stimulation would likely only have an effect on the human. Oral stimulation would be a more likely possibility, but it's not at all like lesbian sex when you consider the organs involved. Kissing would probably be rather nice, though, and I bet that those reptilian scales feel pretty interesting against the nether-regions of a human body... Not that I'd condone rubbing yourself with an iguana or anything like that.

But though we can't really call them lesbians, since their inter-species characteristics would trump their perceived gender, we can at least agree that they seem to be in love and are dedicated to each other, and really, that's all that matters.

I'm just glad we don't have to get into the mating practices of Sil.
 
2012-12-26 05:46:25 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?


I did but I'm choosing not to dwell on it. The Christmas specials will always have something saccharine and they did enough other things right IMHO.
 
2012-12-26 05:58:32 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.


Nothing will ever top the 'clap if you believe in fairies ' ending when the Doctor was captured by the Master.
 
2012-12-26 06:09:03 PM  

NeoCortex42: Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.

Nothing will ever top the 'clap if you believe in fairies ' ending when the Doctor was captured by the Master.


And as horrible as that was, it still isn't worse than Fear Her or Love and Monsters. Honestly, I'm not sure how I made it all the way through the Tennant years.
 
2012-12-26 06:13:35 PM  

ZeroCorpse: so stimulation of this organ may or may not be pleasant to Vastra


If anything, actions that simulate the "cloacal kiss" would probably work well. A mouth makes a decent stand-in, I imagine, but yes, this does mean Jenny has to be one kinky little minx.
 
2012-12-26 06:19:43 PM  

ZeroCorpse:

I would have to agree. This does, however, make me wonder exactly what sexual relations ... The reptile would have a cloaca-like organ, I'm sure, and I can't im ...


This needs to be moved to the geek tab. Or maybe we need a 'TMI GEEK' tab.
 
2012-12-26 06:20:31 PM  

Zarquon's Flat Tire: NeoCortex42: Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.

Nothing will ever top the 'clap if you believe in fairies ' ending when the Doctor was captured by the Master.

And as horrible as that was, it still isn't worse than Fear Her or Love and Monsters. Honestly, I'm not sure how I made it all the way through the Tennant years.


We also can't forget Jesus Doctor being flown by angel robots, or Superman Master shooting balls of lightning.
 
2012-12-26 06:33:54 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.


That would be cutting things a little close, time-wise. If anything, I figured that Tim Latimer was the kids future half-brother, from Capt. Latimer's eventual remarriage.


ZeroCorpse: I would have to agree. This does, however, make me wonder exactly what sexual relations between these two would be like. I imagine it's more fun for the human than the reptile, seeing as the human has a clitoris and vulva, and the reptile has an exceptionally interesting tongue. The human also has nipples which are an erogenous zone, while the reptile's bumps that somewhat resemble breasts can't possibly have nipples, since lizards are not mammalian. The reptile would have a cloaca-like organ, I'm sure, and I can't imagine it has the same sensitivity that a clitoris on a human female would, so stimulation of this organ may or may not be pleasant to Vastra (and, remember that the cloaca is also the reptile's sole excretory orifice, so while there may be some stimulation for Vastra, her human companion would have to be okay with essentially licking what could be fairly called the reptile's anus.)


Moffat made it clear in AGMGTW that Vastra's cunniligus (and/or analingus) abilities were a key aspect of their relationship. ("I don't know why you put up with me." [Thwack!] as she immediately stings an Anglican marine from across the room with her absurdly long and apparently prehensile tongue.) As for Vastra's cloaca being just as much a bung hole as it is a vag, that just means that Jenny tosses salad. Nothing wrong with that; it's all good. Alternatively, maybe Vastra prefers a good deep-dicking with a big, scaley lizard strap-on wielded by Jenny.

The bit about her love of human blood and it's obvious implication got me wondering about the reverse. Does Jenny fry up Vastra's un-fertilised eggs for breakfast?

What is disturbing is Vastra's inability or unwillingness to control her urges and not fall in love with the help. "Taking her reward" with the ill-bred cockney maid is one thing - but to marry her? Heavens to Mergatroid! Capt. Latimer fancied Clara / Miss Montague, but he recognised her unsuitability (even before learning that she was actually of a far lower station than even a governess).
 
2012-12-26 06:34:50 PM  
Damn it! Yes, I *do* know the difference between "its" and "it's". That was a typo. Drat!
 
2012-12-26 06:43:35 PM  

TheManofPA: Dwight_Yeast: Along similar lines, I realized earlier today that I'd love for someone on the show for once to look at the TARDIS and say, "It's a Police Box. Well, to be precise, it's something that looks like a police box but isn't" and then run down all the things that are "wrong" with it compared to the real thing (putting a lampshade on the fact that the prop on the show has never been an exact copy). It's the sort of thing that could be done in an episode set in the 40s or 50s in London, when they were still a common sight.

It happened in Blink. The cop gives 1 or 2 details about why it isn't a real phone box.


And again in The Doctor's Wife:

Idris: There's a sign on my front door. You have been walking past it for seven hundred years. What does it say?

The Doctor: That's not instructions!

Idris: There's an instruction at the bottom. What does it say?

The Doctor: "Pull to open."

Idris: Yes, and what do you do?

The Doctor: I push!

Idris: Every single time. Seven hundred years. Police box doors open out the way.
 
2012-12-26 06:48:57 PM  

malle-herbert: Reminds me a bit of Tom Baker & City of death where the alien guy's spaceship exploded and he was splintered in time
but all versions of him shared their memories somehow...
Maybe that's what happened to Clara ?


It's not a matter of "somehow", but it's hard to explain.

First you have to accept that there's no such thing as "Time" as we perceive it. There is Space/Time, which are inseparable and they're what the Doctor generally means when "wibbly wobbly" comes up. We can move in three directions in space but only one in time, and we assume we have no control over that one.

But there's no reason a being couldn't exist that could move through the fourth dimension (time) as we move through the other three.
 
2012-12-26 06:54:03 PM  

TheManofPA: Dwight_Yeast: Along similar lines, I realized earlier today that I'd love for someone on the show for once to look at the TARDIS and say, "It's a Police Box. Well, to be precise, it's something that looks like a police box but isn't" and then run down all the things that are "wrong" with it compared to the real thing (putting a lampshade on the fact that the prop on the show has never been an exact copy). It's the sort of thing that could be done in an episode set in the 40s or 50s in London, when they were still a common sight.

It happened in Blink. The cop gives 1 or 2 details about why it isn't a real phone box.


Thank you! I'm sadly getting to the point where my mind is starting to elide what I create and what I remember.
 
2012-12-26 07:00:17 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Yeah, it would go pretty stale fast. I also agree with you about River, she was used way too much last year, by the time her episode with the Angels (another over used character) came earlier this year she had lost a bit of her fun and mystery. I did notice in the "Coming Next Year" bit at the end that Strax, Vastra, and Jenny may come back later in the season, as well as Cybermen and maybe Sontarrans (the I saw was wearing regular Sontarran armor.


Yeah, the trio is coming back later in the year for more fun. Notice that the Doctor tells them to stay right where they are, so it looks like he's going to find Clara and then at some point return with her.
 
2012-12-26 07:02:09 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: The Doctor: "Pull to open."


Doesn't that sign technically refer to the door for the phone, which does open outward?

/Great scene, though
 
2012-12-26 07:20:20 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Doesn't that sign technically refer to the door for the phone, which does open outward?


I believe so, but I think the main doors on a real police box open outwards, as well.

Like this:

www.policeboxes.com
 
2012-12-26 07:27:27 PM  

ClintonKun: I can't be the only one who loved the imagery of the TARDIS on top of a cloud with a spiral staircase leading up to it. That is probably the purest depiction of the "fairy tale" theme that Moffat has been going for.


Did anyone else notice that the spiral staircase changed direction at the very top?

From the bottom, it spiraled upward the traditional way, with the center column on your right. However, near the very top, the last complete twist was with the center on one's left (demonstrated by the fact that Clara had her right hand on the rail when she reached the top.

Even the TARDIS's frickin' staircases wibble-wobble four-dimensionally.
 
2012-12-26 07:34:06 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: ClintonKun: I can't be the only one who loved the imagery of the TARDIS on top of a cloud with a spiral staircase leading up to it. That is probably the purest depiction of the "fairy tale" theme that Moffat has been going for.

Did anyone else notice that the spiral staircase changed direction at the very top?

From the bottom, it spiraled upward the traditional way, with the center column on your right. However, near the very top, the last complete twist was with the center on one's left (demonstrated by the fact that Clara had her right hand on the rail when she reached the top.

Even the TARDIS's frickin' staircases wibble-wobble four-dimensionally.



Why not? The staircase was also shorter on the inside than it was on the outside as the Doctor explained to Clara when she wondered how they were able to get up so high so fast.
 
2012-12-26 07:42:29 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: Even the TARDIS's frickin' staircases wibble-wobble four-dimensionally.


Why not? The staircase was also shorter on the inside than it was on the outside as the Doctor explained to Clara when she wondered how they were able to get up so high so fast.


I dunno. I think I might be more unsettled by finding out that I was physically inverted somehow (her left hand is on the rail ... now her right and she's traveling in the opposite direction!) than by realizing I got some place faster than I had calculated. The latter only seems to warps space.
 
2012-12-26 08:38:08 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: And the Matt Smith era brought about a TARDIS regeneration, so it looks all shiny and new now.


Well not anymore, the outside is completely dilapidated and most of the paint has worn off. Looks like he has been parked there brooding over Amy for many years.
 
2012-12-26 09:21:59 PM  

Hand Banana: FirstNationalBastard: And the Matt Smith era brought about a TARDIS regeneration, so it looks all shiny and new now.

Well not anymore, the outside is completely dilapidated and most of the paint has worn off. Looks like he has been parked there brooding over Amy for many years.


That happened in The Angels Take Manhattan, caused by the temporal energy. Makes it look even more like the first Doctor's TARDIS as a result...
 
2012-12-26 09:25:57 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.


Not with GI. I mean, if you found that ridiculous you'd have to find most doctor who conclusions ridiculous.

The way GI works, it simply latches onto the strongest emotion in the area. At least they used some ground rules and didn't use a deus ex machina to end the episode.
 
2012-12-26 09:32:57 PM  

Zarquon's Flat Tire: NeoCortex42: Mike Chewbacca: So nobody else thought that "an entire family crying on Christmas" saving the day through their salty tears was ridiculous?

And yeah, I also noticed the name name Latimer popping up. Maybe the little boy was the father of Latimer in Family of Blood.

Nothing will ever top the 'clap if you believe in fairies ' ending when the Doctor was captured by the Master.

And as horrible as that was, it still isn't worse than Fear Her or Love and Monsters. Honestly, I'm not sure how I made it all the way through the Tennant years.


Yeah. I usually defend doctor who (as I.mentioned above) but there were some really far reaching deus ex moments in the tenant years. Some of that stuff seemed to he just written in to end the episode. It's all well and good but I wish some of it has been a little more thought out.
 
2012-12-26 09:44:49 PM  

Bloody William: I caught it early and it's AWESOME. Also, I'm really interested in Oswin and what happens with her. My theory is she's a time-splintered Rani who fractured across the timeline to avoid the Time War, but I thought River was the Rani too, so I'm probably wrong. Also, Shrax!

Also, that was the greatest Doctor Who Christmas episode in ages. I've always found them bland or pointless, but this was interesting and really leads into the next season.

Also, Victorian detective lizard gay marriage.


My hubby has a theory that clara is the child of The Doctor and River Song, hence how she can exist/die in more than one era
 
2012-12-26 10:08:27 PM  
I think Clara is just another example of someone being "remembered into existence" like the Doctor a couple of seasons back...
 
2012-12-26 10:20:32 PM  

Hand Banana: FirstNationalBastard: And the Matt Smith era brought about a TARDIS regeneration, so it looks all shiny and new now.

Well not anymore, the outside is completely dilapidated and most of the paint has worn off. Looks like he has been parked there brooding over Amy for many years.


That's another thing I don't like and don't agree with and is hugely out of character.

Adric gets smeared into a fine paste, and The Doctor is in Heathrow soon after chasing a plane through time. Peri seemingly gets her brain sucked out and replaced, and life goes on. Even Rose goes to a parallel universe, and the Doctor goes on to find a good redhead. But the Red Menace goes away to live a normal, happy life and there's years of brooding?

Moffat is worse than RTD was about making his pet characters THE MOST IMPORTANT EVER.
 
2012-12-26 10:29:15 PM  

dopekitty74: Bloody William: I caught it early and it's AWESOME. Also, I'm really interested in Oswin and what happens with her. My theory is she's a time-splintered Rani who fractured across the timeline to avoid the Time War, but I thought River was the Rani too, so I'm probably wrong. Also, Shrax!

Also, that was the greatest Doctor Who Christmas episode in ages. I've always found them bland or pointless, but this was interesting and really leads into the next season.

Also, Victorian detective lizard gay marriage.

My hubby has a theory that clara is the child of The Doctor and River Song, hence how she can exist/die in more than one era


In which case the whole snogging thing really wasn't a good idea.

/Dallas got away with having Lucy and Ray shagging, only to reveal a few years later that Ray was her uncle and no one ever said anything.
 
2012-12-26 10:32:55 PM  

Flint Ironstag: dopekitty74: Bloody William: I caught it early and it's AWESOME. Also, I'm really interested in Oswin and what happens with her. My theory is she's a time-splintered Rani who fractured across the timeline to avoid the Time War, but I thought River was the Rani too, so I'm probably wrong. Also, Shrax!

Also, that was the greatest Doctor Who Christmas episode in ages. I've always found them bland or pointless, but this was interesting and really leads into the next season.

Also, Victorian detective lizard gay marriage.

My hubby has a theory that clara is the child of The Doctor and River Song, hence how she can exist/die in more than one era

In which case the whole snogging thing really wasn't a good idea.

/Dallas got away with having Lucy and Ray shagging, only to reveal a few years later that Ray was her uncle and no one ever said anything.


They were in Texas.
 
2012-12-26 10:38:35 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: But the Red Menace goes away to live a normal, happy life and there's years of brooding?


To be fair, the arc was meant to cover the entirety of the Doctor's companions. Much of the Moffat era has focused on how dangerous the Doctor is to be around.
 
2012-12-26 11:07:44 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Adric gets smeared into a fine paste, and The Doctor is in Heathrow soon after chasing a plane through time. Peri seemingly gets her brain sucked out and replaced, and life goes on. Even Rose goes to a parallel universe, and the Doctor goes on to find a good redhead. But the Red Menace goes away to live a normal, happy life and there's years of brooding?


They established that the Ponds were traveling with the Doctor for over a decade, so he would be much more attached to them than other companions that were with him a shorter time, so it should have been a bigger blow emotionally. Also, they have been playing up how his 1100 plus years of loss is weighing on the Doctor, so it is less the one time loss and more the accumulated pain of all the lost companions. Maybe Moffat should have driven that home a bit more by giving the Doctor a one-two punch of also having him finding out about Sarah Jane around the same time, but that card kind of already go played with the Brigadier in the season 6 finale.
 
2012-12-26 11:17:30 PM  

Mad_Radhu: FirstNationalBastard: Adric gets smeared into a fine paste, and The Doctor is in Heathrow soon after chasing a plane through time. Peri seemingly gets her brain sucked out and replaced, and life goes on. Even Rose goes to a parallel universe, and the Doctor goes on to find a good redhead. But the Red Menace goes away to live a normal, happy life and there's years of brooding?

They established that the Ponds were traveling with the Doctor for over a decade, so he would be much more attached to them than other companions that were with him a shorter time, so it should have been a bigger blow emotionally.


Due to the nature of the show, we don't know how long other companions traveled with him. Plus, Rory and his baggage were with The Doctor for a decade of their lives, not necessarily a decade of the Doctor's life. Remember, they had plenty of down time back on Earf between times the Doctor popped in.
 
2012-12-26 11:47:54 PM  
Just once I'd like to hear The Doctor tell a story about a companion prior to Rose. Like, for instance, I'd like to hear him explain how he still feels responsible for Adric's death, or how he regrets the way he treated Peri, or how he wishes he had finished what he was trying to do with Ace, or how Donna kind of reminded him of Mel.

"And there was this time when I regenerated, and nobody was looking at me because Peri was leaning over me."
 
2012-12-26 11:49:33 PM  

Flint Ironstag: My hubby has a theory that clara is the child of The Doctor and River Song, hence how she can exist/die in more than one era

In which case the whole snogging thing really wasn't a good idea.


Meh. Incest and time travel go hand in hand. In factm if you want to live forever, being your own father or grandfather may be the best thing.
 
2012-12-27 12:26:40 AM  
With all of the time-travel, I feel that the writers are failing to incorporate past stories going on in the timeline. That was done somewhat in Remembrance of the Daleks which was set a day or two after "An Unearthly Child" (and included the day that it aired), and Sarah Jane mentioned the events of one of the Doctor's recent adventures when they reunited in "School Reunion", and "The Curse of the Black Spot" sort of tied into The Smugglers, but such examples are rare.

Take this past episode for an example. Vastra, Strax, and Jenny have been back from Demon's Run for four years, fighting crime in London, eating criminals, eating each other, and using their advanced technology to keep the world secure. In the middle of that time what happens? The Savoy Hotel is built atop an alien space ship, and the Doctor and his in-laws show up in the nick of time. There is no indication that the Paternostra Row Gang even knew about it, much less participated.

Meanwhile, Vastra is pretty damn open about who and what she and Strax are - in the heyday of the Torchwood Institute. Somehow, I doubt that Torchwood or the Home Office would care about splitting hairs as to whether Vastra is technically "alien", and would consider her an enemy of the Empire. Strax is certainly alien.

Within a couple of years of "The Snowmen"'s setting, the events of The Talons of Weng-Chiang take place.

There are a lot of examples of when different incarnations of the Doctor are in multiple places at the same time. Take 22 November 1963 for example. The First Doctor had just departed from the junk yard a couple of days earlier with Susan, Ian & Barbara. The Sixth Doctor and Ace are back at the junk yard & the Cole Hill School, fighting Daleks -- meanwhile, the Ninth Doctor is in Dallas with a front row spot to watch Kennedy's head turn to pink mist and to pose for Zabruder. Less than six years later, the Eleventh Doctor, Rory and River are rescuing Amy from the Silence in Florida at the same moment that several incarnations of the Tenth Doctor and Martha are just off-camera watching Neal Armstrong in person. It's as if these things are on completely independent timelines, with no acknowledgement of the other.

Look at another scene in "Day of the Moon": when the Doctor, Amy, Rory, and Canton land the TARDIS on the side of a skyscraper being constructed, and River dives into the pool. Of the five people aboard the TARDIS, the Doctor is, ironically, the only one who is not known to be simultaneously outside of the TARDIS, in or en route to New York. Amy and Rory's elderly selves are there (hell, they might have even gone into the city to watch if they knew the right date & building). Canton's days- or weeks- younger self is a few stories above, having just watched River back flip into oblivion. River's young self is on her way there from Florida.

Vastra looked in AGMGTW like she was rather well settled, and hadn't just recently established herself. Well, five years earlier, a Graske was running around her own damn neighbourhood in "Attack of the Graske" right there in front of the park where the Doctor later hovered the TARDIS in "The Snowmen".
 
2012-12-27 12:38:40 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: With all of the time-travel, I feel that the writers are failing to incorporate past stories going on in the timeline.


Well, the whole point is that he can't "cross his own timeline". What that means exactly has never been clear, but it seems that if the Doctor were in two places on Earth at the same moment and none of the events they affected affected each other, they'd be fine. Realistically, that means in 1895, one Doctor could be in London, while the other was in Borneo, where one event could never directly affect the other.

That is impossible in todays world.
 
2012-12-27 01:06:47 AM  

ZeroCorpse: Just once I'd like to hear The Doctor tell a story about a companion prior to Rose. Like, for instance, I'd like to hear him explain how he still feels responsible for Adric's death, or how he regrets the way he treated Peri, or how he wishes he had finished what he was trying to do with Ace, or how Donna kind of reminded him of Mel.

"And there was this time when I regenerated, and nobody was looking at me because Peri was leaning over me."



There have been any number of opportune times to mention Adric, given his death's relevance to both Silurian and mammalian histories. He fulfilled their prophesy and facilitated the emergence of mammals, leading to humans. Maybe that's been avoided because of the general hatred of Adric. He's also been rendered sort of obsolete (Amelia took his mantle as the youngest companion, Adam bested him as the most unwanted companion, and Jack is a far more "fabulous" companion - NTTAWWT of course).

The writers also blew an opportunity to reference Benton last year. At the end of "The God Complex", the Doctor could have indicated that Benton was the dealer who sold him the car which he gave to Rory. Benton became a used car dealer when he retired from the Army, as the Brigadier stated in Mawdryn Undead. That would have been doubly apropos, given the similarity between Benton's and Rory's calm cool badassery and refusal to rattle off the "It's bigger on the inside" line since they felt no need to state the obvious..

The Doctor does allude to Susan and her presumed death, from time to time. Amy commented about Leela's attire in "Meanwhile in the TARDIS 2" but Leela's presumed death when Gallifrey was destroyed has gone unmentioned. Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart of course has been a repeated topic of conversation. Ten and Sarah Jane re-enacted her two farewell scenes from The Web of Fear (the "don't you forget me" scene was repeated almost verbatim in "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith", and she stood in the middle of the road, silently watching the TARDIS de-materialise in "School Reunion".) He also used "Dr James McCrimmon" as his alias in "Tooth and Claw". Eleven has made a couple of references to K-9 in "Closing Time" (Hum, a robot dog; not as much fun as I remember.") and "The Power of Three" (Is that all you do? Hover? I had a metal dog could do that.")

The Sarah Jane Adventures was far more active about addressing classic era companions. The portrait of the Brigadier in her attic was the first footage from the classic era to be used in the revived era. She caught us up on not only herself, and guest-stars the Brigadier and Jo; but also revealed the post-companionship lives of Ian, Barbara, Ben, Polly, Ace, Liz, and Tegan, and the post-companionship death of Harry. Ace was scheduled to guest star, but her episodes were cancelled when Sladen died.

If anyone was going to remind him of Mel, it would be River, given their out-of-sequence relationship.
 
2012-12-27 01:36:29 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: HopScotchNSoda: With all of the time-travel, I feel that the writers are failing to incorporate past stories going on in the timeline.

Well, the whole point is that he can't "cross his own timeline". What that means exactly has never been clear, but it seems that if the Doctor were in two places on Earth at the same moment and none of the events they affected affected each other, they'd be fine. Realistically, that means in 1895, one Doctor could be in London, while the other was in Borneo, where one event could never directly affect the other.

That is impossible in todays world.


Others (i.e. mortals) supposedly can't (the Blinovich Limitation Effect), although Amy has been repeatedly shown to be immune in "The Big Bang", "Good Night", and "Space". The Doctor can certainly interact with himself, as demonstrated in The Three Doctors, The Five Doctors, The Two Doctors, "Time Crash", Ten's and Martha's repeated returns to watch Neal Armstrong (as stated by Martha in "Blink"), Nine visiting Krakatoa's eruption with either One or Two (Nine was depicted there in "Rose" and Three [back when the TARDIS didn't function] said that he had been there).

My point is that there are multiple things going on that are never referenced. Stuff in the past (his past or the world's past) is mentioned, or the allusions to what a character or creature or force will do in the future because the Doctor already experienced that (i.e., the stuff about the Great Intelligence and the London Underground). But there is rarely any note taken to the events that are simultaneously occurring or recently occurred (in terms of the world's chronology) that we, the audience know about because an earlier story dealt with it.

When Amy and Rory were trying to celebrate their -125th wedding anniversary and instead fighting the [Atraxi?] at the Savoy, Vincent van Gogh had recently said good-bye to the Doctor & Amy, and was suffering his final agonising weeks. Did that occur to Amy? No, perish the thought. She was only thinking about getting her barren wasteland pumped full of Rory juice.

When the Doctor and Martha were trapped without the TARDIS in the spring of 1969, waiting for Inspector Shipton, he knew that the events of The Invasion were going down (and thus where his younger TARDIS could be found). A few months later, when the Eleventh Doctor was in Florida with his soon-to-be family, watching Armstrong on the television, and several copies of the Tenth Doctor & Martha were on the Moon, watching in-person, the Third Doctor was in England with a non-functioning TARDIS, working for Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart and sharing cape-suits with Elvis.
 
2012-12-27 01:43:08 AM  
Catching up with this thread. Have only watched the cold open and the title sequence so far (waiting for the girlfriend to get out of the bath before continuing), but having said that...

Dwight_Yeast: Rwa2play: Hmmm...possible spoiler there?

My thought has always been that the Time Lords are coming back because you don't cast someone like Timothy Dalton as Emperor of the Time Lords for a one-shot deal. Moffat is playing a long game with the show, and I've always got the sense he thought the whole notion of the Time War and writing the other Time Lords out was a mistake. Their existence justifies the Doctor's focus on an insignificant planet in a "galactic backwater", as they're out there, taking care of all the rest of space/time.


It's been well-established over the entire history of the series that the Time Lords were very much not "taking care of all the rest of space/time." That's arguably the main reason The Doctor left Gallifrey in the first place - the Time Lords' strict non-intervention policy. There have obviously been exceptions made, but it's always been made clear that Gallifrey keeps to itself pretty much ever since Rassilon.

I hope you're wrong about their return. I much prefer the "last of his kind" thing. It gives the character additional weight, and makes him somewhat more unpredictable, with all the baggage he's carrying around.


TeddyRooseveltsMustache: The episode was also a good segway segue...


FTFY

Dwight_Yeast: Mad_Radhu: Doesn't that sign technically refer to the door for the phone, which does open outward?

I believe so, but I think the main doors on a real police box open outwards, as well.


Absolutely true. If the doors opened inward, the interiors of real police boxes would be largely useless.
 
2012-12-27 02:00:43 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: When the Doctor and Martha were trapped without the TARDIS in the spring of 1969, waiting for Inspector Shipton, he knew that the events of The Invasion were going down (and thus where his younger TARDIS could be found). A few months later, when the Eleventh Doctor was in Florida with his soon-to-be family, watching Armstrong on the television, and several copies of the Tenth Doctor & Martha were on the Moon, watching in-person, the Third Doctor was in England with a non-functioning TARDIS, working for Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart and sharing cape-suits with Elvis.


I fully understand this nitpick, but there are a lot of things you have to be willing to overlook to enjoy "Doctor Who." Considering how many stories take place on Earth (too many in the modern series, if you ask me - it's ridiculous that we'd be invaded so often given the rate of failure), this sort of problem is inevitable.

However, a point of order: The Pertwee/Baker-era UNIT stories ostensibly took place in the late '70s and early '80s. Sarah Jane says several times in the course of her companionship that she's from 1980, and since she was introduced during 3's exile on Earth, that pretty much nails it.

Well, that is until Peter Grimwade (writer), Peter Moffatt (director) and JNT cocked it all up in "Mawdryn Undead," by saying the Brigadier retired in 1976, and Tegan and Nyssa visit him afterwards in 1977.

So that right there's another example of how you can't really get hung up on this stuff if you want to stay sane and stay a "Doctor Who" fan.

Now, off to finish the episode!
 
2012-12-27 02:02:35 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: Dwight_Yeast: HopScotchNSoda: With all of the time-travel, I feel that the writers are failing to incorporate past stories going on in the timeline.

Well, the whole point is that he can't "cross his own timeline". What that means exactly has never been clear, but it seems that if the Doctor were in two places on Earth at the same moment and none of the events they affected affected each other, they'd be fine. Realistically, that means in 1895, one Doctor could be in London, while the other was in Borneo, where one event could never directly affect the other.

That is impossible in todays world.

Others (i.e. mortals) supposedly can't (the Blinovich Limitation Effect), although Amy has been repeatedly shown to be immune in "The Big Bang", "Good Night", and "Space". The Doctor can certainly interact with himself, as demonstrated in The Three Doctors, The Five Doctors, The Two Doctors, "Time Crash", Ten's and Martha's repeated returns to watch Neal Armstrong (as stated by Martha in "Blink"), Nine visiting Krakatoa's eruption with either One or Two (Nine was depicted there in "Rose" and Three [back when the TARDIS didn't function] said that he had been there).

My point is that there are multiple things going on that are never referenced. Stuff in the past (his past or the world's past) is mentioned, or the allusions to what a character or creature or force will do in the future because the Doctor already experienced that (i.e., the stuff about the Great Intelligence and the London Underground). But there is rarely any note taken to the events that are simultaneously occurring or recently occurred (in terms of the world's chronology) that we, the audience know about because an earlier story dealt with it.

When Amy and Rory were trying to celebrate their -125th wedding anniversary and instead fighting the [Atraxi?] at the Savoy, Vincent van Gogh had recently said good-bye to the Doctor & Amy, and was suffering his final agonising weeks. Did that occur to Amy? No, perish the thought. She was only thinking about getting her barren wasteland pumped full of Rory juice.

When the Doctor and Martha were trapped without the TARDIS in the spring of 1969, waiting for Inspector Shipton, he knew that the events of The Invasion were going down (and thus where his younger TARDIS could be found). A few months later, when the Eleventh Doctor was in Florida with his soon-to-be family, watching Armstrong on the television, and several copies of the Tenth Doctor & Martha were on the Moon, watching in-person, the Third Doctor was in England with a non-functioning TARDIS, working for Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart and sharing cape-suits with Elvis.


Not quite. First, Pertwee's tenure as The Doctor didn't begin until 1970. Second, the third Doctor's era was supposedly set about 5 years beyond the then-present day, putting his stories in the mid-to-late 70s.

So, the third Doctor wasn't running around in 1969 while 10 and 11 were also there.
 
2012-12-27 02:14:23 AM  
If you want to get a headache trying to work out the UNIT timeline, here's the tardis.wikia article. It gets especially brain-twisting in the "contradictory clues" section at the bottom. Don't hurt yourselves.
 
2012-12-27 03:05:40 AM  
I feel like I should point out that the works of Douglas Noel Adams basically act as a parallel gloss to Doctor Who, as he covers a lot of its faults in his books.

If DNA had been the show-runner for the last 40 years, everything would have been perfect.

On the other hand, he would have only been able to produce about four serials in that time.
 
2012-12-27 04:03:48 AM  
I too am sorry to see that we don't get Victorian Clara. would have been a nice change of pace.

What bugged me most in the whole episode though was a well-educated, proper, rich Victorian gentleman saying "I said I would feed you. I didn't say who to."


It's "to whom," you farkwits.
 
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