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(Kansas.com)   You know you're a hard core Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions. "It is only sinners like Pharaoh and Herod who make great rejoicings over the day"   (kansas.com) divider line 46
    More: Silly, pharaohs, Herod, Pagan traditions, Jewish tradition, nativity, resistance, ethnic, traditions  
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5361 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 8:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-24 08:57:04 PM
5 votes:
You know you're a hard core true Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions. "It is only sinners like Pharaoh and Herod who make great rejoicings over the day"

It may not be popular but at least (in this case) they are following the owners manual. After all, if you do not follow the rules, what's the point in claiming to be Christian?

/FTFY
2012-12-24 10:11:04 PM
3 votes:

foxyshadis: mittromneysdog: Jeremiah 10:1-4
This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."

lern2read, the passage was about idolatry, not Christmas trees, which didn't appear until the 1500s. Before then, pagans would Festivus themselves around a tree and each other, not cut down and display a tree.


You know there is more than one type of Pagan/Heathen, right? A tree would be cut in some of the Nordic traditions and the wood used after Jul to heat your hof. Nothing went  to waste. That started waaaay before the 1500's, as wood was used as a heating source for thousands of years, obviously, just like the observance of the solstice, plotting the best time plant your crops, etc, - all were based on solar observations going back much further than some give them credit for. That's why our holidays fall  where they do.

The Pagan/Heathen traditions are incredibly varied based on region. Making a blanket assertion that trees were not brought inside by any Pagans is silly. Especially since sometimes the hof was constructed around a living tree that was decorated for Jul and other wood was used for heat.  Trees have huge importance in  the Nordic traditions.

/Nordic Heathen type person
2012-12-24 09:25:14 PM
3 votes:

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."
2012-12-24 08:58:52 PM
3 votes:
Jeremiah 10:1-4

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."
2012-12-25 01:00:33 AM
2 votes:
As a bit of trivia, the Westboro Baptist Church considers Christmas to be a blasphemous holiday and doesn't celebrate it.

/the more you know
2012-12-24 10:47:55 PM
2 votes:
FTFA: Jackass

"called the pagan origin of Christmas 'a myth without historical substance.' He argued that at least one pagan festival, the Roman Natilis Solis Invictus, instituted by Emperor Aurelian on December 25, 274 was introduced in response to the Christian observance."

Jackass goes on to say pagans intruding on Xtian holiday, not other way around, etc.; doesn't recognize worldwide celebrations of the season well before Hey Zeus X.
2012-12-24 09:42:02 PM
2 votes:
When the original Christians tried to convert the Germanic pagans, they found it mighty rough going. In that religion, anyone who dies in battle is carried off to Valhalla by beautiful winged women called "Valkyries" while anyone who died in bed---"The Straw Death" as they called it---was doomed to wander forever in the frozen wasteland of Hel. That is why the phrase: "--colder than hell--" prevails today.

They found it easier to modify the dogma, rather than try to wage war against people who liked to go down the hard way, and take a lot of others with them. Hence the similarity between modern Christianity and old Germanic paganism.

Heilsa Odin!
2012-12-24 09:37:06 PM
2 votes:

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.


Serious. Baal was the main competition.
2012-12-24 09:27:20 PM
2 votes:
But even to some Christians, Christmas has always seemed like a version of a pagan feast - and therefore unworthy of observance.

Growing up my parents did not celebrate Christmas for this very reason. In fact, they would pull us from school if the class was having any sort of holiday party. Even today, my parents refuse to go into any place of business displaying a Christmas tree.
2012-12-24 09:23:17 PM
2 votes:

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


Um, God's wife (until King David)?
2012-12-24 09:18:54 PM
2 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?


In the OT, probably a lot. NT is a shift. Paul is just sucking up to the Romans and establishing trade routes. John is just crazy rants against Nero.
2012-12-24 08:28:25 PM
2 votes:

simplicimus: Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.


Maybe, but the theocratic culture and laws that political Christians try to impose on us make the obvious Pagan connections really funny.
2012-12-24 08:13:49 PM
2 votes:
You mean hanging objects from an evergreen tree on the solstice and celebrating a fertile rabbit on the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox aren't Christian?
2012-12-26 06:45:23 PM
1 votes:

fredzilla: I find it amusing that the fundies who usually comment in religious/atheistic threads have avoided commenting in this thread altogether.


Fear.
2012-12-25 10:21:29 AM
1 votes:

Lumpmoose: You mean hanging objects from an evergreen tree on the solstice and celebrating a fertile rabbit on the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox aren't Christian?


Candles, caroling, and gifts, too.

Add to it that Jesus was most likely born in August, and the bible specifically states not to have anything to do pagan traditions makes even more ridiculous. Io Saturnalia!
2012-12-25 08:36:04 AM
1 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.


"Saints", at least the common perception of them today, are just another invention of Catholicism (much like Christmas itself). In the Bible, the "saints" are those who have been sanctified, i.e. saved, born again, or whatever you want to call it. Note that all of Paul's letters are addressed to the saints (except of course the ones written to a specific person). He wasn't writing to a bunch of dead guys...

Back to the original topic - I try to avoid Christmas as much as I can because it's just way too overblown. Except for the handful of spots in the Bible where the story is told, it's not really given that much importance. John even skips over it completely and jumps right into Jesus's adult life. Jesus' death and resurrection, on the other hand, can be found all over the bible, from Genesis to Revelation. So why is it that in modern culture the "Christmas season" is already two months and growing, while Easter gets barely half a day?
GBB [TotalFark]
2012-12-25 06:08:09 AM
1 votes:

Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.


-OR-

If God gave us Free Will, why does he demand we worship him under threat of eternal torture?
2012-12-25 02:07:51 AM
1 votes:

simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.


Or, more properly, the ba'alim (which is to say, the Lords, the Old Gods of Sumer and the Fertile Cresent region)--as others have noted, there's actually some fairly solid evidence (some from older glosses in the Old Testament, some from the histories in the Old Testament far more explicitly) that Judaism started out as basically a monotheistic fork of much older Fertile Crescent polytheism. The book of Exodus actually hints very strongly at just HOW recent the fork was, in fact--with the God of Abraham and Isaac going mildly batshiat over the construction of a golden calf meant (ironically) to worship the God of Abraham and Isaac--which was traditionally seen in the Old Religion as the symbol of Ba'al Hadad.

Put even more bluntly: It took a few thousand years for Judaism to differentiate itself from the Old Religion of Gilgamesh and Hammurabi, enough that there were very frequent reversions to the Old Faith well up into the beginnings of the Christian era (in fact, the Old Religion wasn't completely eradicated until the time of Islam, and the calls to holy war against pagans in both the Old Testament AND the Koran have a whole lot to do with the continued existence of the pre-Abrahamic base religion). There's a reason that images of golden calves and of ashtarot (representations of the goddess Ishtar or Astara) were utterly forbidden, as well as any graven image...

(The big question, interestingly, is WHERE the idea for monotheism (in its earliest days, solitary dedication to a singular deity) came from. Some speculation exists that possibly the first monotheist religion (the monotheism of Akhenaten, who pretty much declared Aten (the sun god) to be the sole deity worthy of worship; his attempt at monotheism ended poorly, with things going back to the old ways almost immediately after his death) could have been a strong influence, and certainly the history of proto-Judaism does seem rather similar; there is some more definite evidence of influence from Zoroastrianism around the time period that Christianity diverged from Judaism (including a fairly radical shift in the imagery of Satan from "God's own Miles Edgeworth" to "Angra Mainyu Expy" and--mostly showing up in the Apocrypha used in the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Coptic and Dewahedo Orthodox churches--a shift as well in "angel-ology" that may have been influenced by the concepts of yazatas and Amesha Spentas). Interestingly, Zoroastrianism itself seems to have had a similar process of monotheistic evolution from Vedic faiths.)
2012-12-25 01:19:46 AM
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.

I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.


I would say you're very close. I would hypothesize they are actually aspects of deities when you compare their characteristics to descriptions found in regional pagan and Kabalistic texts.

Without sounding too esoteric, take the pagan stance. Many pagan/earthy religions believe in powerful beings, protectors, demi-gods, or spirits which are found posted at each of the four cardinal directions. These beings could be called upon by praying in their direction or by repeating the prayer 4 times to direct your prayers to all of them at once. Taking these 4 beings and comparing them to the 4 archangels, spoken of at different times in the OT and a couple times in the NT, you can find some texts which refer to praying to them.

Blow your horn 4 times as you circle Jehrico and it will fall down.... This was a direct reference to those practices. It was a call to the Four Directions by pagan standards and a call to the 4 Archangels by Judaic standards.
2012-12-25 01:15:15 AM
1 votes:

Long Pig: simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.

Actually, Ba'Al is old Hebrew which means "Nothing." The Great Opposer, aka Satan, had a nickname, Ba'Alzebub, which means the Lord of Nothing. Somebody mistranslated it years later and now we have Lord of the Flies, Be'Elzebub.

Back on topic, when OT prophets and rabbis spoke of idol worship they never referred to any other worshiped deities by their respective names. Calling them "Nothing" took psychological power away from those they sought to ruin. It was a propaganda tactic much like Islam's version of Jesus' birth in which Jesus was not only born of a virgin, but he also spoke at birth.

Islam Jesus' first words included the following phrase: "There are those that believe I am the Son of God, but they are liars."

The method is clear propaganda for the purpose of a young religion to denigrate and overcome older, more established religions.


Ba'al means 'lord' in the semitic languages. See

Why should it matter? The earliest Christian writers were more interested in Jesus' death and resurrection than in his birth.

They still do, they're (we're) called Orthodox.
2012-12-25 01:04:09 AM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.

I know that.  But everyone knows Abrahamic Christianity is monotheistic, regardless of what non-believers were doing at the time.  So monotheism couldn't have been stolen from paganism, which is the worship of many gods, by definition.  Their monotheism was partly a reaction to the paganism of the time.

Other than that, it was a farking joke.  Jesus.


You can think that if you like. But the Egyptians had already tried out that "monotheism" thing at least a thousand years before that, when Ahkenaten gave it a shot, abandoning the rest of the pantheon in favor of worshipping only the Aten, the sun-god, as embodied in himself. If he'd succeeded (and hadn't pissed off all the priests by doing so) monotheism would have been a done deal before the Abrahamic religions ever got going. Ahkenaten's problem: Monotheism needs god to be omnipotent and yet remote, so being embodied in a Pharaoh doesn't work.
2012-12-25 12:31:32 AM
1 votes:
Remember to keep the Saturn in Saturnalia everyone.
2012-12-24 11:14:41 PM
1 votes:

BokerBill: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

And yet,
I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. (Isa 45:5)


"for thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: "
2012-12-24 11:07:31 PM
1 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."


And yet,
I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. (Isa 45:5)
2012-12-24 10:58:25 PM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


There were a bunch of pagan monotheism believes long before Christianity. The best example being the worship of Aten several decades before Moses came up with the idea after Jewish enslavement in the area where Akhenaten enforced it when he was pharaoh. There a number of other examples around this time too and even today monotheism is a common theme in dozens of older religions.
2012-12-24 09:55:43 PM
1 votes:
Whenever someone points out Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December, after a massive "Well duh", I like to point out there's no evidence anywhere was born and raised poor. The Gospels make no statement about the economic conditions of his upbringing and indeed Luke mentions something that would indicate Jesus grew up quite a long ways from poor.
2012-12-24 09:53:55 PM
1 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: Krymson Tyde: I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.

Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.


Well, a saint for every occasion. But how the heck did we wind up with St. Michael the Archangel? (my birthday and confirmation name)
2012-12-24 09:53:36 PM
1 votes:

fusillade762: Meh. The Puritans called, they want their outrage back.


To be fair Christmas as we celebrate it wasn't really a thing back in their day. And despite what people think the Pilgrims and later early Puritans weren't a bunch of miserable kill joys. It's not until the Great Awakening of the 1700s, see Jonathan Edwards, that you get the real anti-fun kill joys. And they didn't actually find many followers among the descendents of the original settlers funny enough.
2012-12-24 09:50:21 PM
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.

I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.


And/or all of it was just a way of explaining the sometimes contradictory characteristics of life and the universe in archetypical, anthropomorphized form.

Or, aliens.
2012-12-24 09:47:26 PM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.


I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.
2012-12-24 09:43:41 PM
1 votes:
Funny he should mention Herod, because master debater and Christian apologist William Lane Craig said that the Sandy Hook massacre is just another reminder of the reason for the season. Much like the BBC did with Wayne LaPierre, I present his views with a disclaimer that this is not a parody, and that these are the views of William Lane Craig, who calls his particular brand of apologetics "Reasonable Faith".
2012-12-24 09:43:20 PM
1 votes:

mittromneysdog: Jeremiah 10:1-4

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."


lern2read, the passage was about idolatry, not Christmas trees, which didn't appear until the 1500s. Before then, pagans would Festivus themselves around a tree and each other, not cut down and display a tree.

Don't take your Christian memes from your crazy aunt's Facebook posts, please, for the sake of humanity's sanity.
2012-12-24 09:39:23 PM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.


Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"
2012-12-24 09:29:48 PM
1 votes:
Well, since they stole the idea anyway, and they seem to just change the rules based on whim or whatever, isn't the whole thing ridiculous? Religion as a whole that is. Don't they just make up whatever serves their political ideology?
2012-12-24 09:25:36 PM
1 votes:
I have a coworker who does this. The idea is that jesus should be celebrated each and every day. Its kind of weird, but its his religious thing, not
mine.
2012-12-24 09:23:00 PM
1 votes:

simplicimus: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

In the OT, probably a lot. NT is a shift. Paul is just sucking up to the Romans and establishing trade routes. John is just crazy rants against Nero.


Well, except the whole Jesus thing, which wasn't exactly unique either.
2012-12-24 09:10:04 PM
1 votes:
How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?
2012-12-24 09:03:21 PM
1 votes:

simplicimus: Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.


My Latin prof refused to call it Easter because of the pagan Oestra connotations. We had to call it "the Paschal season."
2012-12-24 09:01:42 PM
1 votes:

lordjupiter: It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.


No, it isn't, for people die over these facts everyday, no?
2012-12-24 09:00:27 PM
1 votes:
It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.
2012-12-24 08:58:27 PM
1 votes:
Hey, I celebrate He who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25.
www.mysterium.com
2012-12-24 08:46:09 PM
1 votes:
fta- the Bible offers little help in resolving the question



Well, that's a surprise.
2012-12-24 08:17:04 PM
1 votes:
Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.
2012-12-24 07:42:54 PM
1 votes:
I have an idea for a holiday comedy special... hard-core Christians form an unlikely alliance with hard-core atheists and start a real "War on Christmas™".  Many wacky hijinks and much hilarity ensues.
2012-12-24 07:36:15 PM
1 votes:
Meh. The Puritans called, they want their outrage back.
2012-12-24 07:25:50 PM
1 votes:
Same types go batshait overboard crazy with Good Friday and gloss over two days later.
 
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