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(Kansas.com)   You know you're a hard core Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions. "It is only sinners like Pharaoh and Herod who make great rejoicings over the day"   (kansas.com) divider line 108
    More: Silly, pharaohs, Herod, Pagan traditions, Jewish tradition, nativity, resistance, ethnic, traditions  
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5367 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 8:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-24 07:25:50 PM  
Same types go batshait overboard crazy with Good Friday and gloss over two days later.
 
2012-12-24 07:36:15 PM  
Meh. The Puritans called, they want their outrage back.
 
2012-12-24 07:42:54 PM  
I have an idea for a holiday comedy special... hard-core Christians form an unlikely alliance with hard-core atheists and start a real "War on Christmas™".  Many wacky hijinks and much hilarity ensues.
 
2012-12-24 08:08:05 PM  
I bet these people are a ball to hang out with.
 
2012-12-24 08:13:49 PM  
You mean hanging objects from an evergreen tree on the solstice and celebrating a fertile rabbit on the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox aren't Christian?
 
2012-12-24 08:17:04 PM  
Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.
 
2012-12-24 08:28:25 PM  

simplicimus: Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.


Maybe, but the theocratic culture and laws that political Christians try to impose on us make the obvious Pagan connections really funny.
 
2012-12-24 08:46:09 PM  
fta- the Bible offers little help in resolving the question



Well, that's a surprise.
 
2012-12-24 08:47:02 PM  
I'm no Christian, but I still found the article pretty interesting.
 
2012-12-24 08:55:37 PM  
Meta war on Christmas.
 
2012-12-24 08:56:07 PM  
Atheists. Again.
 
2012-12-24 08:57:04 PM  
You know you're a hard core true Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions. "It is only sinners like Pharaoh and Herod who make great rejoicings over the day"

It may not be popular but at least (in this case) they are following the owners manual. After all, if you do not follow the rules, what's the point in claiming to be Christian?

/FTFY
 
2012-12-24 08:57:28 PM  
I wish a Merry Christmas for those folks who recognize that this is a time of honoring and gratitude for what is.

I wish a Merry Mind for the restivus.

*)
 
2012-12-24 08:57:31 PM  

trivial use of my dark powers: I bet these people are a ball to hang out with.


I'd need at least a morning star to hang with them.
 
2012-12-24 08:57:51 PM  

Ex_Parrot: Meta war on Christmas.


1.bp.blogspot.com
Of course, she's Hindu.
 
2012-12-24 08:58:27 PM  
Hey, I celebrate He who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25.
www.mysterium.com
 
2012-12-24 08:58:52 PM  
Jeremiah 10:1-4

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."
 
2012-12-24 08:58:55 PM  

Ex_Parrot: Meta war on Christmas.


Fark Rye For Many Whores: Atheists. Again.


Raise your useless shields against nothing again, friend, as your ilk reap billions...*)
 
2012-12-24 09:00:16 PM  

MBooda: Hey, I celebrate He who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25.
[www.mysterium.com image 383x274]


To pagan
 
2012-12-24 09:00:27 PM  
It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.
 
2012-12-24 09:01:42 PM  

lordjupiter: It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.


No, it isn't, for people die over these facts everyday, no?
 
2012-12-24 09:03:21 PM  

simplicimus: Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.


My Latin prof refused to call it Easter because of the pagan Oestra connotations. We had to call it "the Paschal season."
 
2012-12-24 09:05:07 PM  

Gyrfalcon: trivial use of my dark powers: I bet these people are a ball to hang out with.

I'd need at least a morning star to hang with them.


well played.
 
2012-12-24 09:06:37 PM  

Indubitably: lordjupiter: It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.

No, it isn't, for people die over these facts everyday, no?


Are you saying nerds aren't dangerous?
 
2012-12-24 09:07:16 PM  

lordjupiter: Indubitably: lordjupiter: It's like watching two nerds argue over whose fan-fic is more real.

No, it isn't, for people die over these facts everyday, no?

Are you saying nerds aren't dangerous?


Nope.
 
2012-12-24 09:10:04 PM  
How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?
 
2012-12-24 09:12:34 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?


Damn, you beat me to it.  Where do you think early Christianity got the idea for all this shiat?  They had to steal it from somewhere, and since the pagans were the only ones around.......
 
2012-12-24 09:12:35 PM  
You know you're a hard core corp Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions.

/pet peave
 
2012-12-24 09:13:28 PM  

Plant Rights Activist: You know you're a hard core corp Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions.

/pet peave


1/10?
 
2012-12-24 09:18:54 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?


In the OT, probably a lot. NT is a shift. Paul is just sucking up to the Romans and establishing trade routes. John is just crazy rants against Nero.
 
2012-12-24 09:21:09 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?


Um, monotheism?
 
2012-12-24 09:23:00 PM  

simplicimus: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

In the OT, probably a lot. NT is a shift. Paul is just sucking up to the Romans and establishing trade routes. John is just crazy rants against Nero.


Well, except the whole Jesus thing, which wasn't exactly unique either.
 
2012-12-24 09:23:17 PM  

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


Um, God's wife (until King David)?
 
2012-12-24 09:25:14 PM  

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."
 
2012-12-24 09:25:36 PM  
I have a coworker who does this. The idea is that jesus should be celebrated each and every day. Its kind of weird, but its his religious thing, not
mine.
 
2012-12-24 09:26:05 PM  

reported: I have an idea for a holiday comedy special... hard-core Christians form an unlikely alliance with hard-core atheists and start a real "War on Christmas™".  Many wacky hijinks and much hilarity ensues.


I'm in. Can we drink?
 
2012-12-24 09:27:20 PM  
But even to some Christians, Christmas has always seemed like a version of a pagan feast - and therefore unworthy of observance.

Growing up my parents did not celebrate Christmas for this very reason. In fact, they would pull us from school if the class was having any sort of holiday party. Even today, my parents refuse to go into any place of business displaying a Christmas tree.
 
2012-12-24 09:29:48 PM  
Well, since they stole the idea anyway, and they seem to just change the rules based on whim or whatever, isn't the whole thing ridiculous? Religion as a whole that is. Don't they just make up whatever serves their political ideology?
 
2012-12-24 09:34:37 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."


Not sure if serious.
 
2012-12-24 09:37:06 PM  

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.


Serious. Baal was the main competition.
 
2012-12-24 09:39:23 PM  

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.


Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"
 
2012-12-24 09:41:07 PM  
Is this another story about Gary Gygax?
 
2012-12-24 09:41:22 PM  

simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.


I know that.  But everyone knows Abrahamic Christianity is monotheistic, regardless of what non-believers were doing at the time.  So monotheism couldn't have been stolen from paganism, which is the worship of many gods, by definition.  Their monotheism was partly a reaction to the paganism of the time.

Other than that, it was a farking joke.  Jesus.
 
2012-12-24 09:42:02 PM  
When the original Christians tried to convert the Germanic pagans, they found it mighty rough going. In that religion, anyone who dies in battle is carried off to Valhalla by beautiful winged women called "Valkyries" while anyone who died in bed---"The Straw Death" as they called it---was doomed to wander forever in the frozen wasteland of Hel. That is why the phrase: "--colder than hell--" prevails today.

They found it easier to modify the dogma, rather than try to wage war against people who liked to go down the hard way, and take a lot of others with them. Hence the similarity between modern Christianity and old Germanic paganism.

Heilsa Odin!
 
2012-12-24 09:42:22 PM  
To float.
 
2012-12-24 09:42:47 PM  

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"



Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.
 
2012-12-24 09:43:20 PM  

mittromneysdog: Jeremiah 10:1-4

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."


lern2read, the passage was about idolatry, not Christmas trees, which didn't appear until the 1500s. Before then, pagans would Festivus themselves around a tree and each other, not cut down and display a tree.

Don't take your Christian memes from your crazy aunt's Facebook posts, please, for the sake of humanity's sanity.
 
2012-12-24 09:43:41 PM  
Funny he should mention Herod, because master debater and Christian apologist William Lane Craig said that the Sandy Hook massacre is just another reminder of the reason for the season. Much like the BBC did with Wayne LaPierre, I present his views with a disclaimer that this is not a parody, and that these are the views of William Lane Craig, who calls his particular brand of apologetics "Reasonable Faith".
 
2012-12-24 09:44:41 PM  

Indubitably: To float.


fc06.deviantart.net
 
2012-12-24 09:47:26 PM  

lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.


I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.
 
2012-12-24 09:47:35 PM  
To quote Homer.

"God bless those pagans."
 
2012-12-24 09:48:15 PM  

lordjupiter: Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.


assets.sbnation.com
 
2012-12-24 09:49:04 PM  

Krymson Tyde: I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.


Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.
 
2012-12-24 09:50:21 PM  

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.

I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.


And/or all of it was just a way of explaining the sometimes contradictory characteristics of life and the universe in archetypical, anthropomorphized form.

Or, aliens.
 
2012-12-24 09:53:36 PM  

fusillade762: Meh. The Puritans called, they want their outrage back.


To be fair Christmas as we celebrate it wasn't really a thing back in their day. And despite what people think the Pilgrims and later early Puritans weren't a bunch of miserable kill joys. It's not until the Great Awakening of the 1700s, see Jonathan Edwards, that you get the real anti-fun kill joys. And they didn't actually find many followers among the descendents of the original settlers funny enough.
 
2012-12-24 09:53:55 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Krymson Tyde: I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.

Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.


Well, a saint for every occasion. But how the heck did we wind up with St. Michael the Archangel? (my birthday and confirmation name)
 
2012-12-24 09:54:19 PM  

doglover: Indubitably: To float.

[fc06.deviantart.net image 748x916]


You evilize my love, which is inviolable.
 
2012-12-24 09:55:20 PM  

Indubitably: doglover: Indubitably: To float.

[fc06.deviantart.net image 748x916]

You evilize my love, which is inviolable.


Keep trying, jackhat.
 
2012-12-24 09:55:43 PM  
Whenever someone points out Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December, after a massive "Well duh", I like to point out there's no evidence anywhere was born and raised poor. The Gospels make no statement about the economic conditions of his upbringing and indeed Luke mentions something that would indicate Jesus grew up quite a long ways from poor.
 
2012-12-24 09:57:59 PM  

MBooda: Hey, I celebrate He who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25.
[www.mysterium.com image 383x274]


Mithras?

/ I'd be leery of joining that cult
// "Christians" did a pretty effective job in wiping them out....
 
2012-12-24 10:00:12 PM  
Once a year you have the option not to be a cancerous dick to everyone. Naturally, some people have a hard time with this and double down.
 
2012-12-24 10:09:25 PM  

WhyteRaven74: The Gospels make no statement about the economic conditions of his upbringing and indeed Luke mentions something that would indicate Jesus grew up quite a long ways from poor.


His Mom and Dad were on a donkey tour to Bethlehem, which was like a Princess Cruise in those days. Complete with 3 touts trying to push trinkets on them at the first port o call.
 
2012-12-24 10:11:04 PM  

foxyshadis: mittromneysdog: Jeremiah 10:1-4
This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."

lern2read, the passage was about idolatry, not Christmas trees, which didn't appear until the 1500s. Before then, pagans would Festivus themselves around a tree and each other, not cut down and display a tree.


You know there is more than one type of Pagan/Heathen, right? A tree would be cut in some of the Nordic traditions and the wood used after Jul to heat your hof. Nothing went  to waste. That started waaaay before the 1500's, as wood was used as a heating source for thousands of years, obviously, just like the observance of the solstice, plotting the best time plant your crops, etc, - all were based on solar observations going back much further than some give them credit for. That's why our holidays fall  where they do.

The Pagan/Heathen traditions are incredibly varied based on region. Making a blanket assertion that trees were not brought inside by any Pagans is silly. Especially since sometimes the hof was constructed around a living tree that was decorated for Jul and other wood was used for heat.  Trees have huge importance in  the Nordic traditions.

/Nordic Heathen type person
 
2012-12-24 10:47:55 PM  
FTFA: Jackass

"called the pagan origin of Christmas 'a myth without historical substance.' He argued that at least one pagan festival, the Roman Natilis Solis Invictus, instituted by Emperor Aurelian on December 25, 274 was introduced in response to the Christian observance."

Jackass goes on to say pagans intruding on Xtian holiday, not other way around, etc.; doesn't recognize worldwide celebrations of the season well before Hey Zeus X.
 
2012-12-24 10:49:00 PM  
"At least one..."

That's not looking real strong.
 
2012-12-24 10:55:25 PM  

Lumpmoose: simplicimus: Jeez, get over it. Christmas is Festivus, Easter is the celebration of the fertility goddess Ostra. Just because Christianity co-opted pagan festivals doesn't diminish the symbolic value.

Maybe, but the theocratic culture and laws that political Christians try to impose on us make the obvious Pagan connections really funny.


Laws, yeah. Culture? Nah.
 
2012-12-24 10:55:44 PM  

lordjupiter: So monotheism couldn't have been stolen from paganismpolytheism, which is the worship of many gods, by definition.


FTFY
(Actually "pagan" can mean polytheistic, but can also just mean not-Judeo-Christian.)
 
2012-12-24 10:58:25 PM  

lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?


There were a bunch of pagan monotheism believes long before Christianity. The best example being the worship of Aten several decades before Moses came up with the idea after Jewish enslavement in the area where Akhenaten enforced it when he was pharaoh. There a number of other examples around this time too and even today monotheism is a common theme in dozens of older religions.
 
2012-12-24 11:07:31 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."


And yet,
I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. (Isa 45:5)
 
2012-12-24 11:14:41 PM  

BokerBill: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

And yet,
I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. (Isa 45:5)


"for thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: "
 
2012-12-24 11:25:53 PM  

simplicimus: BokerBill: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

And yet,
I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. (Isa 45:5)

"for thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: "


Just an earlier version of the Smeagol/Gollum/Precious trinity.
 
2012-12-24 11:30:51 PM  

lordjupiter: Um, monotheism?


Not until you learn the Polytheism and Masonry techs.
 
2012-12-24 11:33:46 PM  
Meh, just finished the Wigilia festivities.
I'll use your festivus pole for a crappie condo tomorrow
 
2012-12-25 12:07:10 AM  

simplicimus: ArcadianRefugee: Krymson Tyde: I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.

Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.

Well, a saint for every occasion. But how the heck did we wind up with St. Michael the Archangel? (my birthday and confirmation name)


That's easy. Sainthood isn't a god-like status, it's more of a hall of fame. Naturally an Archangel that has been deemed super-important belongs in the HoF.
 
2012-12-25 12:10:31 AM  
All you doubters are in for the shock of your life, because some day astronauts or astronomers are going to find that teapot out there in orbit, and then you will repent and be a true believe!
 
2012-12-25 12:13:24 AM  

simplicimus: ArcadianRefugee: Krymson Tyde: I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.

Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.

Well, a saint for every occasion. But how the heck did we wind up with St. Michael the Archangel? (my birthday and confirmation name)


Michael is mentioned as an angel. No idea why they call him saint.
 
2012-12-25 12:31:32 AM  
Remember to keep the Saturn in Saturnalia everyone.
 
2012-12-25 01:00:33 AM  
As a bit of trivia, the Westboro Baptist Church considers Christmas to be a blasphemous holiday and doesn't celebrate it.

/the more you know
 
2012-12-25 01:04:09 AM  

lordjupiter: simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.

I know that.  But everyone knows Abrahamic Christianity is monotheistic, regardless of what non-believers were doing at the time.  So monotheism couldn't have been stolen from paganism, which is the worship of many gods, by definition.  Their monotheism was partly a reaction to the paganism of the time.

Other than that, it was a farking joke.  Jesus.


You can think that if you like. But the Egyptians had already tried out that "monotheism" thing at least a thousand years before that, when Ahkenaten gave it a shot, abandoning the rest of the pantheon in favor of worshipping only the Aten, the sun-god, as embodied in himself. If he'd succeeded (and hadn't pissed off all the priests by doing so) monotheism would have been a done deal before the Abrahamic religions ever got going. Ahkenaten's problem: Monotheism needs god to be omnipotent and yet remote, so being embodied in a Pharaoh doesn't work.
 
2012-12-25 01:07:38 AM  

simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.


Actually, Ba'Al is old Hebrew which means "Nothing." The Great Opposer, aka Satan, had a nickname, Ba'Alzebub, which means the Lord of Nothing. Somebody mistranslated it years later and now we have Lord of the Flies, Be'Elzebub.

Back on topic, when OT prophets and rabbis spoke of idol worship they never referred to any other worshiped deities by their respective names. Calling them "Nothing" took psychological power away from those they sought to ruin. It was a propaganda tactic much like Islam's version of Jesus' birth in which Jesus was not only born of a virgin, but he also spoke at birth.

Islam Jesus' first words included the following phrase: "There are those that believe I am the Son of God, but they are liars."

The method is clear propaganda for the purpose of a young religion to denigrate and overcome older, more established religions.
 
2012-12-25 01:12:27 AM  
Who cares how many gods you believe in, one or a hundred and one? I just believe in one less.
 
2012-12-25 01:15:15 AM  

Long Pig: simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.

Actually, Ba'Al is old Hebrew which means "Nothing." The Great Opposer, aka Satan, had a nickname, Ba'Alzebub, which means the Lord of Nothing. Somebody mistranslated it years later and now we have Lord of the Flies, Be'Elzebub.

Back on topic, when OT prophets and rabbis spoke of idol worship they never referred to any other worshiped deities by their respective names. Calling them "Nothing" took psychological power away from those they sought to ruin. It was a propaganda tactic much like Islam's version of Jesus' birth in which Jesus was not only born of a virgin, but he also spoke at birth.

Islam Jesus' first words included the following phrase: "There are those that believe I am the Son of God, but they are liars."

The method is clear propaganda for the purpose of a young religion to denigrate and overcome older, more established religions.


Ba'al means 'lord' in the semitic languages. See

Why should it matter? The earliest Christian writers were more interested in Jesus' death and resurrection than in his birth.

They still do, they're (we're) called Orthodox.
 
2012-12-25 01:19:46 AM  

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Angels, dude.

Not that I believe any of that stuff literally, but if we're talking about theories...definitely aliens.

I have a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence to back it up: Angels were Judaism's way of incorporating the multiple gods into the one big guy.


I would say you're very close. I would hypothesize they are actually aspects of deities when you compare their characteristics to descriptions found in regional pagan and Kabalistic texts.

Without sounding too esoteric, take the pagan stance. Many pagan/earthy religions believe in powerful beings, protectors, demi-gods, or spirits which are found posted at each of the four cardinal directions. These beings could be called upon by praying in their direction or by repeating the prayer 4 times to direct your prayers to all of them at once. Taking these 4 beings and comparing them to the 4 archangels, spoken of at different times in the OT and a couple times in the NT, you can find some texts which refer to praying to them.

Blow your horn 4 times as you circle Jehrico and it will fall down.... This was a direct reference to those practices. It was a call to the Four Directions by pagan standards and a call to the 4 Archangels by Judaic standards.
 
2012-12-25 01:25:41 AM  

Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"


Great example of how Ben Johnson, William Shakespeare and King James influenced the translation of the English version... King's "We". The King and Queen are "The Sovereign" which means they are the nation. When referring to themselves they invoke the nation as though it does not exist without them. That "we" bled over into the translation process and there OBVIOUSLY would be no way that the King's important "we" would not be used to invoke the entire population of all creation by the deity.
 
2012-12-25 02:07:51 AM  

simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.


Or, more properly, the ba'alim (which is to say, the Lords, the Old Gods of Sumer and the Fertile Cresent region)--as others have noted, there's actually some fairly solid evidence (some from older glosses in the Old Testament, some from the histories in the Old Testament far more explicitly) that Judaism started out as basically a monotheistic fork of much older Fertile Crescent polytheism. The book of Exodus actually hints very strongly at just HOW recent the fork was, in fact--with the God of Abraham and Isaac going mildly batshiat over the construction of a golden calf meant (ironically) to worship the God of Abraham and Isaac--which was traditionally seen in the Old Religion as the symbol of Ba'al Hadad.

Put even more bluntly: It took a few thousand years for Judaism to differentiate itself from the Old Religion of Gilgamesh and Hammurabi, enough that there were very frequent reversions to the Old Faith well up into the beginnings of the Christian era (in fact, the Old Religion wasn't completely eradicated until the time of Islam, and the calls to holy war against pagans in both the Old Testament AND the Koran have a whole lot to do with the continued existence of the pre-Abrahamic base religion). There's a reason that images of golden calves and of ashtarot (representations of the goddess Ishtar or Astara) were utterly forbidden, as well as any graven image...

(The big question, interestingly, is WHERE the idea for monotheism (in its earliest days, solitary dedication to a singular deity) came from. Some speculation exists that possibly the first monotheist religion (the monotheism of Akhenaten, who pretty much declared Aten (the sun god) to be the sole deity worthy of worship; his attempt at monotheism ended poorly, with things going back to the old ways almost immediately after his death) could have been a strong influence, and certainly the history of proto-Judaism does seem rather similar; there is some more definite evidence of influence from Zoroastrianism around the time period that Christianity diverged from Judaism (including a fairly radical shift in the imagery of Satan from "God's own Miles Edgeworth" to "Angra Mainyu Expy" and--mostly showing up in the Apocrypha used in the Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Coptic and Dewahedo Orthodox churches--a shift as well in "angel-ology" that may have been influenced by the concepts of yazatas and Amesha Spentas). Interestingly, Zoroastrianism itself seems to have had a similar process of monotheistic evolution from Vedic faiths.)
 
2012-12-25 02:23:53 AM  

Long Pig: simplicimus: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Serious. Baal was the main competition.

Actually, Ba'Al is old Hebrew which means "Nothing." The Great Opposer, aka Satan, had a nickname, Ba'Alzebub, which means the Lord of Nothing. Somebody mistranslated it years later and now we have Lord of the Flies, Be'Elzebub.

Back on topic, when OT prophets and rabbis spoke of idol worship they never referred to any other worshiped deities by their respective names. Calling them "Nothing" took psychological power away from those they sought to ruin. It was a propaganda tactic much like Islam's version of Jesus' birth in which Jesus was not only born of a virgin, but he also spoke at birth.

Islam Jesus' first words included the following phrase: "There are those that believe I am the Son of God, but they are liars."

The method is clear propaganda for the purpose of a young religion to denigrate and overcome older, more established religions.


Uh, I'm going to be calling for a cite on that claim that "Ba'al means nothing", because there are going to be modern speakers of Hebrew who'd argue strenuously with you on that--much less folks who've studied languages and pre-Abrahamic religions.

Specifically, "Ba'al" does not mean "nothing", but (if anything) means the very antithesis of "nothing"; Ba'al (plural "ba'alim") is an honourific in multiple Semitic languages including Hebrew translating to roughly "lord" and which in pre-Abrahamic Semitic religion tended to refer to frank divinity--the female equivalent was "astharot" or "Lady".

And yes, there were multiple ba'alim worshipped in pre-Abrahamic times (and well up to the time of Christianity--with Babylon being a major centre of the Old Faith well into Roman times, hence the extreme antipathy you see in the Bible towards that city) including one of the more famous that is mentioned indirectly in the Old Testament--Ba'al Hadad, whose traditional symbol is a golden calf--yes, as in the same golden calf mentioned repeatedly in the Old Testament (including a story of a conversion narrative where it was proven an effigy calf of Ba'al Hadad was not miraculously consuming food).

As for Be'elzebub...Firstly, there's some real question as to whether that was ever intended to refer to Satan to begin with (up to the early Christian era, the primary image of Satan was not as an Angra Mainyu-esque anti-deity but as God's own prosecuting attorney in the divine court and directly working for the Abrahamic God as a professional heel to test humanity (yes, Job makes a LOT more sense if you think of God as the Judge, Job as Phoenix Wright, and Satan as Miles Edgeworth before the heel-face turn)). What is actually more likely is that the name is actually a parody of that of one of the ba'alim still worshipped in the Old Religion.

Specifically, Be'elzebub seems to have been a very deliberate corruption of the honourific "Ba'al Zebul"--"Lord of the High Places", an honourific referring to Ba'al Hadad who was also the god of storms--with the name changed to (in context) basically call the "Lord of the High Places" "Lord Of The Shiatpile". (Yes, this was the snarky way of saying "Your god is a literal pile of shiat"--this "God of Nothing" stuff fails to actually get the fact that the Jewish population was trolling the shiat out of the followers of old Mesopotamian religion. :D)
 
2012-12-25 02:26:58 AM  
If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.
 
2012-12-25 02:36:09 AM  

Long Pig: Krymson Tyde: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: lordjupiter: ArcadianRefugee: How many Christian beliefs aren't originally pagan?

Um, monotheism?

That's silly. The bible doesn't say He is the only god, just that he should be #1 on in people's lives.

"I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me."

Notice it isn't

"I am the Lord your God; there are no other gods."

Not sure if serious.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"

Genesis 3:22 states, "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us...'"

Great example of how Ben Johnson, William Shakespeare and King James influenced the translation of the English version... King's "We". The King and Queen are "The Sovereign" which means they are the nation. When referring to themselves they invoke the nation as though it does not exist without them. That "we" bled over into the translation process and there OBVIOUSLY would be no way that the King's important "we" would not be used to invoke the entire population of all creation by the deity.


...Except that the "Royal We" does not exactly exist in a lot of languages, and some of the earliest writings in the Old Testament corpus do fairly clearly refer to what would normally be considered a plurality--"Elohim" being probably the most notorious example (basically it would normally translate as "The Gods", probably did originally translate that way, and is now mostly glossed over by followers of the Abrahamic faiths as being an honourific similar to the "Royal We"--but some older texts do hint at this actually being originally a polytheistic term that basically got "retconned" into an honourific, seeing as honourific pluralisation does not occur anywhere else in that entire family of languages and the term is clearly plural in the closest related languages to Biblical Hebrew).

Not only that, but there is evidence that no less than two separate creation stories (including different orders of events) were incorporated by different writers into the book of Genesis, probably pointing at "retconning" of different (and originally polytheistic) origin stories--there are in fact still traces of where stories from the "old religion" have been basically retconned into Genesis in particular (some of the stories of which WOULD have dated from well into the pre-Abrahamic era--it's not really until the events of Exodus where we even start to see the barest basis of a monotheistic fork being documented)--many have pointed out strong similarities between the story of Noah and flood stories from pre-Abrahamic faiths. (Most often the Epic of Gilgamesh has been noted, but the Epic of Ziusudra, whilst more obscure, may be a more direct antecedent of the Noah mythos.)
 
GBB
2012-12-25 06:08:09 AM  

Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.


-OR-

If God gave us Free Will, why does he demand we worship him under threat of eternal torture?
 
2012-12-25 07:10:11 AM  

GBB: Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.

-OR-

If God gave us Free Will, why does he demand we worship him under threat of eternal torture?


Or God is omnipotent while at the same time he needs us to send a lot of money, AND defend his faith against all unbelievers.
 
2012-12-25 07:53:11 AM  

reported: I have an idea for a holiday comedy special... hard-core Christians form an unlikely alliance with hard-core atheists and start a real "War on Christmas™".  Many wacky hijinks and much hilarity ensues.


Ideas... newsletter... my interest. You know the meme.
 
2012-12-25 07:55:42 AM  
Oh for fark's sake.  The question was if Xtianity contained anything NOT stolen from paganism, not who invented monotheism.  If you define pagans as polytheists, then by definition they couldn't steal monotheism from them even if monotheism had been tried before because it was abandoned.  Unless you just want to discount anything that wasn't invented by Xtianity, which can also be done if you use a broader, "heathen" definition for pagans, in which case anything not totally original could be argued to have been borrowed or stolen.

There should be no question that Xtianity is supposed to be monotheistic and generally in reaction to pagan/heathen religions of the time--especially that of the Romans--whether or not it fits a technical definition (and intent was the issue).  You could also view it as being about the special god of the Jews and his lesser deities, which some could interpret as a polytheistic system though the Jews certainly didn't view it that way, or in ways similar to the polytheistic faiths that had been established.

This has become a "netpick".

Either way, it's just forensic analysis as far as I'm concerned, and of course, farkin aliens.
 
2012-12-25 08:36:04 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: Let's not forget the multitude of 'saints'.


"Saints", at least the common perception of them today, are just another invention of Catholicism (much like Christmas itself). In the Bible, the "saints" are those who have been sanctified, i.e. saved, born again, or whatever you want to call it. Note that all of Paul's letters are addressed to the saints (except of course the ones written to a specific person). He wasn't writing to a bunch of dead guys...

Back to the original topic - I try to avoid Christmas as much as I can because it's just way too overblown. Except for the handful of spots in the Bible where the story is told, it's not really given that much importance. John even skips over it completely and jumps right into Jesus's adult life. Jesus' death and resurrection, on the other hand, can be found all over the bible, from Genesis to Revelation. So why is it that in modern culture the "Christmas season" is already two months and growing, while Easter gets barely half a day?
 
2012-12-25 08:43:51 AM  

Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.


Watch out, we got a real Epicurus over here
bbsimg.ngfiles.com
 
2012-12-25 08:49:51 AM  

SpacemanSpoof: Back to the original topic - I try to avoid Christmas as much as I can because it's just way too overblown. Except for the handful of spots in the Bible where the story is told, it's not really given that much importance. John even skips over it completely and jumps right into Jesus's adult life. Jesus' death and resurrection, on the other hand, can be found all over the bible, from Genesis to Revelation. So why is it that in modern culture the "Christmas season" is already two months and growing, while Easter gets barely half a day?


You're missing the plugging of Easter Candy almost the entire time during Lent -- ironically. And I think it's only Mardi Gras/Valentines Day that prevents anything earlier.


And that's the tie-in. As Mel Brooks/Yogurt pointed out: "Commoishilism!"

/loving this thread
 
2012-12-25 08:51:16 AM  

trivial use of my dark powers: I bet these people are a ball to hang out with.


s8.thisnext.com
 
2012-12-25 09:23:45 AM  
"You know you're a hard core Christian if you refuse to celebrate Christmas because it's rooted in Pagan traditions. "It is only sinners like Pharaoh and Herod who make great rejoicings over the day""

Different Pharaoh's had different beliefs- at least one was a monotheist- but afaik, being Jewish, wouldn't Herod have celebrated Hannukah, not some Roman holiday?
I know, picking on Fundamentalists attempting to make a logical argument is like laughing at cripples trying to run.
 
2012-12-25 09:46:13 AM  
A couple weeks ago our church kicked off the Advent season with our "Hanging of the Greens" service, where we deck out the sanctuary with all the various Christmas trappings: fir garlands, a tree decked out with ornaments showing various Christian images, a wreath, candles, poinsettias and so on. With each addition, the religious explanation for the trappings is given: evergreens representing eternal life, lights representing the Light of the World breaking forth into the darkness, etc.

Yes, much of the symbolism is unabashedly pagan in origin. That's not really an issue. After all, if pagans can be baptized and become Christians, why can't we "baptize" pagan holidays and make them Christian ones?
 
2012-12-25 10:21:29 AM  

Lumpmoose: You mean hanging objects from an evergreen tree on the solstice and celebrating a fertile rabbit on the Sunday after the first full moon of the vernal equinox aren't Christian?


Candles, caroling, and gifts, too.

Add to it that Jesus was most likely born in August, and the bible specifically states not to have anything to do pagan traditions makes even more ridiculous. Io Saturnalia!
 
2012-12-25 10:41:55 AM  

middlewaytao: Add to it that Jesus was most likely born in Augus


Actually the going thinking is some time in spring given the gospel of Luke mentions shepherds out in their fields.
 
HSA
2012-12-25 12:43:47 PM  

Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.


Thanking god for allowing free will?
 
2012-12-25 12:51:12 PM  

GBB: Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.

-OR-

If God gave us Free Will, why does he demand we worship him under threat of eternal torture?


Ironically, perhaps, for a guy who collects foreskins like kids used to collect Pogs, he's a bit of a prick.
 
2012-12-25 01:52:09 PM  
The moron Christmas continues.
 
2012-12-25 03:28:59 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: GBB: Mock26: If there is free will then why would someone thank god for something good? He had nothing to do with it.
If there is no free will, they why do you not thank god for all the tragedies? He made them happen.

-OR-

If God gave us Free Will, why does he demand we worship him under threat of eternal torture?

Or God is omnipotent while at the same time he needs us to send a lot of money, AND defend his faith against all unbelievers.


And defend him against insults!
 
2012-12-25 05:44:24 PM  

Forbidden Doughnut: MBooda: Hey, I celebrate He who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25.
[www.mysterium.com image 383x274]

Mithras?

/ I'd be leery of joining that cult


Hmm...
0.tqn.com
 
2012-12-25 11:24:06 PM  

WhyteRaven74: middlewaytao: Add to it that Jesus was most likely born in Augus

Actually the going thinking is some time in spring given the gospel of Luke mentions shepherds out in their fields.


Yes, there are a few theories, but most don't fall anywhere near December.

The bible also implies not to celebrate birthdays, either.

To add to my list of pagan Saturnalia practices, cookies in the shape of men, pointed red hats.....
 
2012-12-26 01:49:21 AM  
I find it amusing that the fundies who usually comment in religious/atheistic threads have avoided commenting in this thread altogether.
 
2012-12-26 06:45:23 PM  

fredzilla: I find it amusing that the fundies who usually comment in religious/atheistic threads have avoided commenting in this thread altogether.


Fear.
 
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