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(Rochester Democrat and Chronicle)   Shooter of Webster NY Firemen identified, it was a 62 year old white male previously jailed for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer. Pro and anti hammer comments to the right   (democratandchronicle.com) divider line 355
    More: Followup, white male, hammers, volunteer firefighters, grandmother, Rose Spengler  
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5688 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 6:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-24 08:52:30 PM

Captain Steroid: Lemme get this straight... not only was this a**hole let of prison after serving 17 YEARS for using his grandmother in a home version of "Whack-A-Mole", but another a**hole thought it was okay to sell or give him GUNS?

[i1182.photobucket.com image 237x348]


So it turns out, relatives of criminals can buy guns!!! Oh shiat. Plus, PPT's can be done without a NICS check.
 
2012-12-24 08:54:29 PM
Clearly this means we need to arm our firefighters.
 
2012-12-24 08:55:42 PM

Benjamin Orr: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

Cite.

Link


Logs for one range, for the past year.
 
2012-12-24 08:55:58 PM

Mrtraveler01: Is there any gun regulation you would support.


Yes... sensible regulations that would actually make a difference (not cosmetic bullshiat that will never change anything)

One thing would be to make all non licensed person to person sales go through a licensed dealer with the same checks required if you were buying from a dealer. (aka the gun show loophole)

Better funding/reporting for the NICS database to help make sure the existing laws/restrictions for felons and people with mental issues are followed more often.

Tougher sentencing for people with illegal guns or involved in the illegal trade of guns.
 
2012-12-24 08:57:07 PM
It must have been...

www.bookwormsapple.com
 
2012-12-24 08:58:23 PM

Mrtraveler01: Clearly this means we need to arm our firefighters.


Nah, we just need capital punishment on all murderers and man-slaughterers
 
2012-12-24 08:59:25 PM

kombat_unit: Mrtraveler01: Clearly this means we need to arm our firefighters.

Nah, we just need capital punishment on all murderers and man-slaughterers


Or lock them up for life.
 
2012-12-24 08:59:42 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

Cite.

Link

Logs for one range, for the past year.


whatever
 
2012-12-24 09:00:32 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

Cite.

Link

Logs for one range, for the past year.


Clearly not comprehensive, but I'm pretty sure you have a link to all the other ranges she was training him at?
 
2012-12-24 09:02:08 PM

ultraholland: [www.nailgundepot.com image 400x364]

Just what purpose does this serve anyway? These things come with high-capacity magazines and are designed to fire a nail as quickly as the user can pull the trigger; some even have drums. A drum of nails?! Why can't you carpentry nuts understand that a manual hammer-and-nail combo is adequate for your uses, or does shiat like this help stroke your damaged little ego?


Colbertian!

/coal-bear Ian?
 
2012-12-24 09:02:11 PM

Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US


I'm not a fan of absolute prohibition of just about anything--the POTUS needs access to the nuclear football, of course. I would say that the very rigid controls on the sale, licensing and distribution of fully automatic firearms do pretty well. Those that need to have them have them and those that don't usually don't. Its not people with fully automatic weapons I get concerned about.
 
2012-12-24 09:05:37 PM
To lift my life/shiat is traceable and sad. And that isn't even infinitive, yo...
 
2012-12-24 09:06:20 PM

Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US


Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control
 
2012-12-24 09:06:20 PM

Benjamin Orr: Somacandra: Benjamin Orr: Well he actually possessed them illegally since he wasn't old enough to own handguns, got denied a few days earlier.... and oh yeah.... he shot his mother 4 times in the face to take them.

A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns. The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out. Unless you want a police state coming into houses and forcibly separating people from living together or confiscating legal guns when they find mentally ill people there then something else has to be done.

So just make all guns illegal then? What is your solution?



His "easy access" was to commit murder. That's what he had to do to walk out of that house with the Bushmaster.
 
2012-12-24 09:09:10 PM

kombat_unit: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

Cite.

Link

Logs for one range, for the past year.

Clearly not comprehensive, but I'm pretty sure you have a link to all the other ranges she was training him at?


I don't really give a sh*t. Apparently he got good enough to kill twenty-six on his own.

I'm more concerned with his access to the weapons.
 
2012-12-24 09:11:02 PM

Somacandra: Happens all the time. Especially in Obama headlines. And I've had at least one greenlight about Black Marines myself.


Sorry, I meant in headlines about criminals.
 
2012-12-24 09:11:03 PM

Champion of the Sun: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control


Who is talking about zip guns? Do you have any idea of how many people are currently making (legally btw) semi-automatic rifles?

Do you have any idea how easy it is to make something like a Sten gun with common tools?

You don't know what you are talking about... but I guess keep acting like you have any idea how hard it is to make a gun.

Plus our borders are obviously completely sealed and nothing can get into the US without us knowing about it.
 
2012-12-24 09:11:47 PM

give me doughnuts: Benjamin Orr: Somacandra: Benjamin Orr: Well he actually possessed them illegally since he wasn't old enough to own handguns, got denied a few days earlier.... and oh yeah.... he shot his mother 4 times in the face to take them.

A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns. The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out. Unless you want a police state coming into houses and forcibly separating people from living together or confiscating legal guns when they find mentally ill people there then something else has to be done.

So just make all guns illegal then? What is your solution?


His "easy access" was to commit murder. That's what he had to do to walk out of that house with the Bushmaster.


So magically make all guns go away?
 
2012-12-24 09:12:44 PM

Benjamin Orr: Since this happened early this morning... I am going to guess he didn't use one of the scary guns since they are not reporting what kind of gun(s) he used.



4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-24 09:13:38 PM

thornhill: Therion: How about we stop publishing their names and giving these farking assholes the publicity/notoriety they crave; and have all news media refer to shooters as "the farking asshole who ..."?

I doubt that it's really a motivating factor. I mean, can you cite any evidence of this?

Most of these shooters have a mental illness or are driven by extreme paranoid beliefs.


Look up copy cat suicides. Might be an extension to that.
 
2012-12-24 09:14:26 PM

Somacandra: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

I'm not a fan of absolute prohibition of just about anything--the POTUS needs access to the nuclear football, of course. I would say that the very rigid controls on the sale, licensing and distribution of fully automatic firearms do pretty well. Those that need to have them have them and those that don't usually don't. Its not people with fully automatic weapons I get concerned about.


Well that is probably because the ones with legal full-auto paid a crap ton for them and the ones with the illegal imports are shooting other drug dealers.

I don't think the Class 3 model is going to work for most guns because the scarcity just isn't there. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US right now.
 
2012-12-24 09:16:14 PM

Champion of the Sun: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control


I wouldn't fear the home grown weapons (its not that difficult to machine a sub machine gun tho) so much as the imports.
Weapons sold in the US are built to American rules. Weapons stolen or purchased from elsewhere do not have the same handicaps.

An AK, bought in Africa for $50 and smuggled in on the same trailers with the Cocaine and Mexican ditch weed to be sold for a hundred times the price, will be the genuine article. It will have select fire, armor piercing rounds, grenade launchers and whatever they can find.

Once the power of firearms has been centralized to a few cops and national guardsmen, the criminals will also be more likely to use illegal weapons in brazen attacks.
If you've got the money to fight these factors you become like England or Australia. There are more people suffering the effects of crime but fewer shootings.
If you don't have the cash, you become more like Mexico... Which is just one big happy basket of abuse and corruption.
 
2012-12-24 09:18:18 PM

Coco LaFemme: He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer.

Why wasn't he still in prison?


wasnt holding any weed

no use to the guards
 
2012-12-24 09:19:06 PM

Benjamin Orr: Since this happened early this morning... I am going to guess he didn't use one of the scary guns since they are not reporting what kind of gun(s) he used.


They're all scary. That's kind of the point.
 
2012-12-24 09:19:14 PM

LiberalEastCoastElitist: thornhill: Therion: How about we stop publishing their names and giving these farking assholes the publicity/notoriety they crave; and have all news media refer to shooters as "the farking asshole who ..."?

I doubt that it's really a motivating factor. I mean, can you cite any evidence of this?

Most of these shooters have a mental illness or are driven by extreme paranoid beliefs.

Look up copy cat suicides. Might be an extension to that.


That's a different phenomenon. It's about emulating behavior you hear about. Nobody is committing suicide to get their name in the newspaper.
 
2012-12-24 09:19:17 PM

Aracnix: gwenners: [jaypgreene.files.wordpress.com image 265x400]

/hot, like a fire

If that guy his his grandmother to death with his "hammer" then I'm just impressed.


This thread has a shortage of verbs. I think I'll get hammered now.
 
2012-12-24 09:21:27 PM
Here's what I keep hearing:

1) You can't restrict access cause 2nd Amendment says we can't and any attempt to do so is unAmerican.

2) There are too many guns in circulation, so we can't possibly get them all, so why bother getting any of them?

3) We need MOAR GUNS, that'll fix the problem.

Honestly, it's enough to make a civilized man sick to his stomach.
 
2012-12-24 09:21:35 PM

Rocknutts: I live about 2 miles away where this happened. I don't know if they located his sister yet, but she is probably in one of the houses that burned down. There was a row of houses that were delapidated or boarded up. They sat on multi million dollar property. I thought that it was arson at first.


That is interesting.
 
2012-12-24 09:22:56 PM

Somacandra: The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out.


Have you ever heard of a gun safe? How about a trigger lock?

I don't even own a gun and I know about them. Jeez.
 
2012-12-24 09:25:44 PM

LiberalEastCoastElitist: Somacandra: The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out.

Have you ever heard of a gun safe? How about a trigger lock?

I don't even own a gun and I know about them. Jeez.


Lanza's mother apparently allowed him access to her firearms while she was trying to have him committed.

That's the kind of dumb mistake you only get to make once.
 
2012-12-24 09:26:20 PM

moothemagiccow: Benjamin Orr: Since this happened early this morning... I am going to guess he didn't use one of the scary guns since they are not reporting what kind of gun(s) he used.

They're all scary. That's kind of the point.


oooga booga scary guns!!!

Well I meant the scarier ones that the AWB wanted to get rid of that were exactly the same as others with wooden stocks instead of scary black stocks.
 
2012-12-24 09:27:42 PM

Infernalist: Here's what I keep hearing:

1) You can't restrict access cause 2nd Amendment says we can't and any attempt to do so is unAmerican.

2) There are too many guns in circulation, so we can't possibly get them all, so why bother getting any of them?

3) We need MOAR GUNS, that'll fix the problem.

Honestly, it's enough to make a civilized man sick to his stomach.


1) Fire!!!
2) Moar gasoline!
3) ????
4) Profit!
 
2012-12-24 09:32:39 PM

way south: Champion of the Sun: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control

I wouldn't fear the home grown weapons (its not that difficult to machine a sub machine gun tho) so much as the imports.
Weapons sold in the US are built to American rules. Weapons stolen or purchased from elsewhere do not have the same handicaps.

An AK, bought in Africa for $50 and smuggled in on the same trailers with the Cocaine and Mexican ditch weed to be sold for a hundred times the price, will be the genuine article. It will have select fire, armor piercing rounds, grenade launchers and whatever they can find.

Once the power of firearms has been centralized to a few cops and national guardsmen, the criminals will also be more likely to use illegal weapons in brazen attacks.
If you've got the money to fight these factors you become like England or Australia. There are more people suffering the effects of crime but fewer shootings.
If you don't have the cash, you become more like Mexico... Which is just one big happy basket of abuse and corruption.


Did the batman shooter, columbine kids, or Lanza have the connections to get imported illegal guns? Could they establish an IRA connection to get automatic weapons? Stupid hypothetical. This is the real world, regular loons don't have those connections.
 
2012-12-24 09:32:50 PM

thornhill: LiberalEastCoastElitist: thornhill: Therion: How about we stop publishing their names and giving these farking assholes the publicity/notoriety they crave; and have all news media refer to shooters as "the farking asshole who ..."?

I doubt that it's really a motivating factor. I mean, can you cite any evidence of this?

Most of these shooters have a mental illness or are driven by extreme paranoid beliefs.

Look up copy cat suicides. Might be an extension to that.

That's a different phenomenon. It's about emulating behavior you hear about. Nobody is committing suicide to get their name in the newspaper.


It's about emulating behavior you hear about.
It's about emulating behavior you hear about.
It's about emulating behavior you hear about.

Because they're crazy mofos. Link I rest my case.
 
2012-12-24 09:32:56 PM

Mrtraveler01: way south: Infernalist: The only thing of value that I learned from this article is that even those convicted of brutal murder can get their hands on lethal weaponry without so much as a hint of a problem.

The solution, obviously, is MOAR GUNS

The alternative is to prevent you from buying a gun and pretend that this act disarmed him.

/So you can turn off your alarm system and sleep with the doors unlocked, because the solution to crime is in the bag.
/Even if the elimination of guns was possible, I suspect that a guy who murders his own family member with a hammer will find a way to make do.

I think the question we need to ask is how did he get a gun and what c could have been done to prevent that?


Most likely he got it through a straw purchase from a legal gun dealer, buying it himself from a licensed but corrupt dealer, buying it from an unlicensed street dealer (who got it by one of the previously mentioned methods or by stealing it from a dealer or a legal owner), or he got it from friends or family.
How Criminals Get Guns
 
2012-12-24 09:33:40 PM
As a gun owner, I'm willing to have the discussion on gun registration, permits, profiling, background checking, etc. I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to make sure only responsible people will purchase weapons.
But, I'm not willing to say that banning guns will ever be the answer. You know what the opponent is playing with or POSSIBLY playing with. We know that there are already MILLIONS of guns in the world and that criminals may already have them. Unless you can guarantee that every gun in the country is going to be gone what's the point of demanding we get rid of a fraction of them?

Would you willingly start a game of chess without your queen, knights, or bishops? That's what the gun control lobby is working toward. Why willingly put yourself at a disadvantage when you already know the opposition will play dirty with ANYTHING they can get their hands on?

All the rules in the world won't stop people from getting a weapon if they want one. We can confiscate and destroy every weapon we can find and there will still be weapons out there.
 
2012-12-24 09:35:47 PM

Champion of the Sun: way south: Champion of the Sun: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control

I wouldn't fear the home grown weapons (its not that difficult to machine a sub machine gun tho) so much as the imports.
Weapons sold in the US are built to American rules. Weapons stolen or purchased from elsewhere do not have the same handicaps.

An AK, bought in Africa for $50 and smuggled in on the same trailers with the Cocaine and Mexican ditch weed to be sold for a hundred times the price, will be the genuine article. It will have select fire, armor piercing rounds, grenade launchers and whatever they can find.

Once the power of firearms has been centralized to a few cops and national guardsmen, the criminals will also be more likely to use illegal weapons in brazen attacks.
If you've got the money to fight these factors you become like England or Australia. There are more people suffering the effects of crime but fewer shootings.
If you don't have the cash, you become more like Mexico... Which is just one big happy basket of abuse and corruption.

Did the batman shooter, columbine kids, or Lanza have the connections to get imported illegal guns? Could they establish an IRA connection to get automatic weapons? Stupid hypothetical. This is the real world, regular loons don't have those connections.


I personally have no connections to Colombian or Afghan drug lords. I can however get cocaine and heroin in about an hour.

I can also get illegal guns from those very same local connections.
 
2012-12-24 09:35:53 PM

mc_madness: Boxing analyst Max Kellerman's brother was beaten to death by a boxer with a hammer nicknamed "the Hammer".

Ironic no?


No... Calling a hammer "the hammer" is pretty much exactly what anyone would expect.
 
2012-12-24 09:37:59 PM

Champion of the Sun: way south: Champion of the Sun: Benjamin Orr: Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US

Exactly why we shouldn't have a debate. One side is as intelligent as most three year old children. Kinda hard to murder kindergartners with a zip gun. Not likely to be a bunch of homemade bathtub hooch guns if we enact stringent gun control

I wouldn't fear the home grown weapons (its not that difficult to machine a sub machine gun tho) so much as the imports.
Weapons sold in the US are built to American rules. Weapons stolen or purchased from elsewhere do not have the same handicaps.

An AK, bought in Africa for $50 and smuggled in on the same trailers with the Cocaine and Mexican ditch weed to be sold for a hundred times the price, will be the genuine article. It will have select fire, armor piercing rounds, grenade launchers and whatever they can find.

Once the power of firearms has been centralized to a few cops and national guardsmen, the criminals will also be more likely to use illegal weapons in brazen attacks.
If you've got the money to fight these factors you become like England or Australia. There are more people suffering the effects of crime but fewer shootings.
If you don't have the cash, you become more like Mexico... Which is just one big happy basket of abuse and corruption.

Did the batman shooter, columbine kids, or Lanza have the connections to get imported illegal guns? Could they establish an IRA connection to get automatic weapons? Stupid hypothetical. This is the real world, regular loons don't have those connections.


They didn't because the value of locally made weapons on the American black market is lower than what it would cost to import them.
Prohibition reverses that, which is what pays for all the criminal overhead. The new importers, organized crooks, will buy cheap and sell high.

They will make those connections because they can flip a common weapon for at least ten times its value.
The Columbine kids wouldn't have to do anything but front the cash.

/Or do you think those wildly gyrating coke heads in a rave have personal connections in Columbia?
 
2012-12-24 09:41:34 PM

way south: They will make those connections because they can flip a common weapon for at least ten times its value.


Just like they do all over the world, right?
 
2012-12-24 09:42:20 PM
Infernalist: The only thing of value that I learned from this article is that even those convicted of brutal murder can get their hands on lethal weaponry without so much as a hint of a problem.

The solution, obviously, is MOAR GUNS

way south: The alternative is to prevent you from buying a gun and pretend that this act disarmed him.

/So you can turn off your alarm system and sleep with the doors unlocked, because the solution to crime is in the bag.
/Even if the elimination of guns was possible, I suspect that a guy who murders his own family member with a hammer will find a way to make do.

Mrtraveler01: I think the question we need to ask is how did he get a gun and what c could have been done to prevent that?

way south: Its a fair question.
I'm more curious how he left the corrections system with a serious flaw in his character left uncorrected.

Arguing about the weapon only changes the hypothetical bodycount. The problem is he decided to commit such a crime.


Instead of point and click, 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead with no more effort than a trigger pull, he would have had to come after them howling with a hammer. Which probably would have had one firefighter injured, if that.

Look at it this way, reduce the number of guns in society and you weed out the lazy and homicidal. The motivated and homicidal will then have to expend imagination and physical effort, actually engaging in hand to hand combat in order to murder. And boy howdy, hand to hand combat can be pretty tiring, let me tell you what. Much more taxing than point-and-click murder.
 
2012-12-24 09:47:32 PM
Meanwhile, Texas is wondering how come this guy didn't go for a ride on Ol' Sparky around 1982 or so - then saw the "NY" in the story and that pretty much explained everything.
 
2012-12-24 09:49:44 PM

LiberalEastCoastElitist: thornhill: LiberalEastCoastElitist: thornhill: Therion: How about we stop publishing their names and giving these farking assholes the publicity/notoriety they crave; and have all news media refer to shooters as "the farking asshole who ..."?

I doubt that it's really a motivating factor. I mean, can you cite any evidence of this?

Most of these shooters have a mental illness or are driven by extreme paranoid beliefs.

Look up copy cat suicides. Might be an extension to that.

That's a different phenomenon. It's about emulating behavior you hear about. Nobody is committing suicide to get their name in the newspaper.

It's about emulating behavior you hear about.
It's about emulating behavior you hear about.
It's about emulating behavior you hear about.

Because they're crazy mofos. Link I rest my case.


The issue was reporting the shooter's name, not witholding the story.

You're conflating two entirely separate issues.
 
2012-12-24 09:50:19 PM

SquiggsIN: But, I'm not willing to say that banning guns will ever be the answer. You know what the opponent is playing with or POSSIBLY playing with. We know that there are already MILLIONS of guns in the world and that criminals may already have them. Unless you can guarantee that every gun in the country is going to be gone what's the point of demanding we get rid of a fraction of them?


If there were a 100 guns in the country instead of a hundred million, they would be harder to come by, and as a result, fewer criminals would be able to obtain them and use them for murder. If weapons became rarer, they would become more valuable, kept carefully cleaned and oiled in secure safes, rather than cavalierly stored and easily stolen.

As I've noted, the Catch 22 of firearms is that the more firearms in the hands of the law abiding, the more firearms in the hands of the criminals.
 
2012-12-24 09:52:13 PM

way south: The Columbine kids wouldn't have to do anything but front the cash.


For the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for prohibition to make guns so rare that it would be very difficult for a common person to raise the money and find the criminal element willing to sell them a gun? For example, can a pair of 15 years go out and buy a RPG, even with time and planning to save money and find a dealer? What about the fact that these mass murders are the exception to the rule in terms of forethought? Any cop will tell you the typical criminal is dumb and impulsive. I read somewhere that stop and frisk is forcing gang bangers to hide their guns rather than carry them on their person, and for that reason, there are fewer gun crimes (i.e. lack of spontaneity).
 
2012-12-24 09:55:58 PM

Gulper Eel: Meanwhile, Texas is wondering how come this guy didn't go for a ride on Ol' Sparky around 1982 or so - then saw the "NY" in the story and that pretty much explained everything.


Even if you add up the guy's mother and the 2 firefighters, Texas has still probably killed more innocent people than this asshole.
 
2012-12-24 09:56:23 PM

JungleBoogie: Instead of point and click, 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead with no more effort than a trigger pull, he would have had to come after them howling with a hammer. Which probably would have had one firefighter injured, if that.


...Or he could have walked up calmly appearing like just another bystander, then clicked a dead man switch and killed a dozen people with pipe bombs.
This is how many modern ambushes often go down. He could have thrown acid or gasoline on the men. He could also have stabbed two or three people with a fifteen inch bowie before anyone figured out they were being attacked.
Its difficult to say because, for whatever reason, he chose the gun. If the gun was not there, there is no proof he could only have chosen a hammer over, say, using an automobile to plow into the crowd. He put enough effort into making this plan and you are making a logical leap to say that he would then be too lazy to think up an alternative to a firearm.
If he wanted to save the greatest amount of effort, he would have eaten the bullet all by himself.

...But now we are arguing about a hypothetical body count, and this is pointless.
The problem is still the fact that he got out of bed thinking "I want to kill a bunch of people today".
You are looking for one or two less deaths by way of harshing millions of mellows, I'm looking for how we could have prevented the situation entirely.
 
2012-12-24 10:07:19 PM

Champion of the Sun: If there weren't access to guns by people who currently qualify to own one, no criminal would be able to steal that legal gun.


Okay, let's imagine that, by some miracle of magic, you actually managed to get through restrictions that would actually disarm America's hunters. (You won't ever actually manage this, but until you do, you haven't actually done anything to limit access to guns more than the limits the Sandy Hook shooter already faced.) All right. Now let's assume that all the previously-legal guns get handed in (which is even less likely). Then, hell, as long as we're piling on ludicrous improbabilities, we invent an absolutely perfect border fence technology that makes it impossible to smuggle guns into the US.

You know what happens to the number of firearm murders in the US? Nothing that'll show up in the statistics. Semi-automatic weapons are not some sort of sophisticated super-technology. They're century-old designs easily made with common metalworking tools. Propellant and primers for ammo are about as hard to cook up as meth (though moderately more likely to blow up the neighbors). Millions of guns will get manufactured in small metal shops across the country, and they flood the streets.

But, hey, now we can have a full-out War on Guns that'll be just as fully effective as the War on Drugs . . . at justifying the erosion of civil liberties and funneling money into street gangs and organized crime. Congratulations, you just made America that much worse a place to live!

Hey, you know what we could outlaw next? Alcohol. Just think of all the lives we could save if drunk drivers couldn't legally get liquor . . . .
 
2012-12-24 10:11:31 PM

thornhill: The issue was reporting the shooter's name, not witholding the story.

You're conflating two entirely separate issues.


I'm not allowed to change the discussion to what I think is the actual cause? Ok.
 
2012-12-24 10:11:40 PM

WordsnCollision: It must have been...

[www.bookwormsapple.com image 400x662]


Good book, but Anvil of the Stars was better.
 
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