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(Rochester Democrat and Chronicle)   Shooter of Webster NY Firemen identified, it was a 62 year old white male previously jailed for beating his grandmother to death with a hammer. Pro and anti hammer comments to the right   (democratandchronicle.com) divider line 355
    More: Followup, white male, hammers, volunteer firefighters, grandmother, Rose Spengler  
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5687 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 6:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-24 08:16:28 PM
That is some farked up cheese-whiz.

on a different note: I'm detecting a lack of Oldboy references in a hammer related thread. You're slipping, Fark.
 
2012-12-24 08:16:42 PM
img19.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-24 08:16:43 PM

Mrtraveler01: way south: Infernalist: The only thing of value that I learned from this article is that even those convicted of brutal murder can get their hands on lethal weaponry without so much as a hint of a problem.

The solution, obviously, is MOAR GUNS

The alternative is to prevent you from buying a gun and pretend that this act disarmed him.

/So you can turn off your alarm system and sleep with the doors unlocked, because the solution to crime is in the bag.
/Even if the elimination of guns was possible, I suspect that a guy who murders his own family member with a hammer will find a way to make do.

I think the question we need to ask is how did he get a gun and what c could have been done to prevent that?


Its a fair question.
I'm more curious how he left the corrections system with a serious flaw in his character left uncorrected.

Arguing about the weapon only changes the hypothetical bodycount. The problem is he decided to commit such a crime.
 
2012-12-24 08:18:43 PM
So someone who by law wasn't allowed to have a gun committed a mass shooting again.

Why do gun control advocates think that restricting guns is going to keep people like this from getting guns? He obviously, as a felon, was able to get a weapon. Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.
 
2012-12-24 08:19:44 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: And what law-abiding citizen did he get his gun from?


Silly. He was obviously a member of a very well-regulated militia.
 
2012-12-24 08:20:36 PM
Thank God for the Assault Hammer ban.

www.homeland-security-center.bg

Only the government is allowed to have them.
 
2012-12-24 08:22:27 PM

way south: The death penalty costs less than 50 cents a bullet (if we use the good stuff)...Its the litigation and appeals that cost so much.


Not to mention the cost of the innocent lives taken by the State. With a life w/o parole sentence at least you can release someone who is vindicated later.
 
2012-12-24 08:24:06 PM
I don't think I've seen race identified in a fark headline before.
 
2012-12-24 08:24:28 PM
Mjollnir?

*thunder crackles and lightning crashes*
 
2012-12-24 08:24:30 PM

SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.


I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.
 
2012-12-24 08:25:44 PM

Mrtraveler01: way south: Wayne 985: kombat_unit: stirfrybry: Good thing he didn't get the death penalty for killing granny

Good thing or the fark progessive crocodile tears would have been immense when they carried out the sentence.

I wouldn't care if he was executed or not, but you're dishonest to pretend that life without parole is not a (cheaper) option.

The death penalty costs less than 50 cents a bullet (if we use the good stuff).
Its the litigation and appeals that cost so much.

/I'm ambivalent on the death penalty but at least make that distinction clear.
/IIRC it has no statistical effect on crime.

Damn that due process amiright?


Nothing against the process. But the implication that death is more expensive than life presumes that he simply wont litigate anyway after avoiding the hangman's noose, and that a lower cost is justification for our moral choices.
It doesn't take into account the cost of what happens when he causes trouble in prison.

/or maybe kills or injures another inmate.
/or gets out and kills firemen in an ambush.
/The lawsuit over his wrongful execution would probably have cost less than all the death benefits we'll be paying out.
/Morally incorrect but look at the savings!
 
2012-12-24 08:25:48 PM

pmmal: Just before setting the fire, he was alleged to have said, "trust me. I know what I'm doing."

/obscure? on Christmas eve?


WTF does Bubba Zenetti have to do with it?
 
2012-12-24 08:26:17 PM
God, this story is so effed up. Who has a problem with firefighters, of all people? Christ.
 
2012-12-24 08:26:34 PM

Somacandra: SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.


He got them from his mom.
 
2012-12-24 08:27:11 PM

LordJiro: If right-wing ideology was actually consistent, giving the state power to execute people would be the last thing they'd want. Second to last would be 'making it easier and faster for the state to execute you'.


If the state doesn't have the power to execute people, that power reverts to the people themselves. If left-wing ideology was actually consistent, they'd appreciate giving the State an absolute monopoly on the power to decide who should be killed. If it was *really* consistent, the position "okay, let's give the state exclusive rights to decide who should be killed, but then make the actual number of executions zero" would fly as well as "let's make marijuana a legally regulated pharmaceutical, then set the legally regulated amount to zero".

Granted the system does incarcerate and execute people incorrectly, and that there's an indefensable bias toward executing black men. I've never heard of a murder victim getting due process or a right to appeal though.
 
2012-12-24 08:28:15 PM

Pertifly: God, this story is so effed up. Who has a problem with firefighters, of all people? Christ.


Really killed my Christmas spirit when I heard that story.
 
2012-12-24 08:29:21 PM

Mrtraveler01: Somacandra: SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.

He got them from his mom.


That's the problem with kids these days.
When I was his age we had to work hard and save up for our rampage guns.

/Ok... maybe that's too soon.
 
2012-12-24 08:29:46 PM

Somacandra: SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.


Well he actually possessed them illegally since he wasn't old enough to own handguns, got denied a few days earlier.... and oh yeah.... he shot his mother 4 times in the face to take them.
 
2012-12-24 08:30:28 PM

Mrtraveler01: He got them from his mom.


Exactly. That's my point. She got them legally and trained him on them. That's why I disagree with the person I was responding to.
 
2012-12-24 08:32:40 PM

Somacandra: Mrtraveler01: He got them from his mom.

Exactly. That's my point. She got them legally and trained him on them. That's why I disagree with the person I was responding to.


Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.
 
2012-12-24 08:32:58 PM

Amos Quito: GAT_00: Sure am glad he was allowed to buy/keep his gun, depending on when the gun purchase happened.

Yeah, I'm sure he bought it - all nice and legal.


[msnbcmedia.msn.com image 327x380]


I see "gun show loophole" stories in our future. Although, really, very few non-dealers sell at gun shows, because you can't make enough money to make renting the table profitable unless you're a licensed dealer (and the feds really frown on "collectors" who make money from dealing without a license). More likely, he bought it through a classified ad. No paperwork, no background check, no Merry Christmas for the local fire department.
 
2012-12-24 08:33:01 PM

Coco LaFemme: He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer.

Why wasn't he still in prison?


Ditto that - wtf was that parole board thinking?...
 
2012-12-24 08:34:16 PM

Benjamin Orr: Well he actually possessed them illegally since he wasn't old enough to own handguns, got denied a few days earlier.... and oh yeah.... he shot his mother 4 times in the face to take them.


A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns. The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out. Unless you want a police state coming into houses and forcibly separating people from living together or confiscating legal guns when they find mentally ill people there then something else has to be done.
 
2012-12-24 08:35:20 PM

Benjamin Orr: he cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.


I've practiced at shooting ranges without signing in. That's not hard to do.
 
2012-12-24 08:35:37 PM

Somacandra: SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.


Ya, murdering the legal owner and stealing the firearms is kinda sorta like legally-procured except for the legally part.
 
2012-12-24 08:36:20 PM

Somacandra: Benjamin Orr: Well he actually possessed them illegally since he wasn't old enough to own handguns, got denied a few days earlier.... and oh yeah.... he shot his mother 4 times in the face to take them.

A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns. The only way to stop him from getting them would have been to force his mother to get rid of them or make him move out. Unless you want a police state coming into houses and forcibly separating people from living together or confiscating legal guns when they find mentally ill people there then something else has to be done.


So just make all guns illegal then? What is your solution?
 
2012-12-24 08:36:25 PM

Somacandra: Mrtraveler01: He got them from his mom.

Exactly. That's my point. She got them legally and trained him on them. That's why I disagree with the person I was responding to.


Trained him  on him?

How is that exactly?
 
2012-12-24 08:37:11 PM
Why are these always self inflicted deaths? If a person wanted to die and do the most harm possible along the way, don't you think they'd wait and at least try to take out some cops too? I never quite understood this.
 
2012-12-24 08:37:21 PM

Indubitably: Somacandra: Mrtraveler01: He got them from his mom.

Exactly. That's my point. She got them legally and trained him on them. That's why I disagree with the person I was responding to.

Trained him  on him?

How is that exactly?


/Force-tard again.

//try 'them'
 
2012-12-24 08:37:59 PM

Somacandra: Benjamin Orr: he cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

I've practiced at shooting ranges without signing in. That's not hard to do.


In some states (not sure about CT) it is required. I know my local ranges will not let anybody in without signing all of the forms required (insurance, proof of age,etc) and you can't get in without them checking you in.
 
2012-12-24 08:38:14 PM
If I had a hammer...
 
2012-12-24 08:39:26 PM

Coco LaFemme: Why wasn't he still in prison?


Priorities. Gotta make room for all of the real criminals. Y'know, the ones busted for pot possession.
 
2012-12-24 08:40:19 PM

Somacandra: SquiggsIN: Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

I guess you're referring to the legally-procured firearms the Sandy Hook mass murderer used? He certainly didn't have any disadvantages to getting his hands on them.


not to speak ill of the dead but, his mother was a farking moron. She knew he was unstable and left them available to him, ending in hers and 26 other deaths. responsible gun owners don't advertise their arsenals nor allow access to people who have no business having them.
 
2012-12-24 08:40:19 PM

Coco LaFemme: He beat his grandmother to death with a hammer.

Why wasn't he still in prison?


She was already dead, it wasn't like he was going to do it again.
 
2012-12-24 08:40:33 PM

Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.


Cite.
 
2012-12-24 08:41:30 PM

Mike_LowELL: [upload.wikimedia.org image 200x175]

But video games don't cause violence.  Got it.


...based on the ratio of hammers to barrels, we should be seeing 100 times more rolling barrel deaths than we do hammer deaths.
 
2012-12-24 08:42:00 PM
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a hammer is a good guy with a hammer.
 
2012-12-24 08:43:10 PM
People still kill with guns, so we should get rid of gun laws.
People still speed, so we should get rid of speeding laws.
People still do everything, so we should just get rid of laws.
 
2012-12-24 08:43:59 PM

Somacandra: A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns.


This is debatable.
We still don't have a clear picture of how the guns were stored (and many upscale gun safes are quite formidable, but nothing is impervious) or how much access he had.

Domestic violence is a very big cause of murders and assaults. People don't expect their own family to kill them.
Its possible she never meant for him to have access to the guns but also never saw him as such a grave threat.
She opens the safe to clean, turns her back and gets blindsided.

/If he did try to purchase a firearm on his own but got turned down, IIRC that's supposed to trigger some phone calls.
 
2012-12-24 08:44:47 PM

SquiggsIN: So someone who by law wasn't allowed to have a gun committed a mass shooting again.

Why do gun control advocates think that restricting guns is going to keep people like this from getting guns? He obviously, as a felon, was able to get a weapon. Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.


This is why I'm tired of people calling for a debate or dialogue on gun control. One side of the 'debate' has the reasoning of a three year old. When my toddler doesn't want to go to bed I don't debate her, or start a dialogue. I put her to bed. Time for the adults in this country to make and enforce a bedtime. Gun nuts using the worst analogies and hypotheticals to ensure they can keep their toys aren't worthy of a debate.

If there weren't access to guns by people who currently qualify to own one, no criminal would be able to steal that legal gun. Probably bought it with no paperwork at a gun show or through a straw purchase anyways. Or stole it from his sister who could legally own it. If thieves can steal guns from responsible gun owners, they're not really responsible gun owners are they?
 
2012-12-24 08:45:08 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Benjamin Orr: Except that other family members/friends have disputed the sister-in-laws story. The cops even searched all of the shooting range check in logs and could not find her or his names anywhere.

Cite.


Link
 
2012-12-24 08:45:47 PM

way south: Somacandra: A mentally ill guy was living with easy access to legally procured guns.

This is debatable.
We still don't have a clear picture of how the guns were stored (and many upscale gun safes are quite formidable, but nothing is impervious) or how much access he had.

Domestic violence is a very big cause of murders and assaults. People don't expect their own family to kill them.
Its possible she never meant for him to have access to the guns but also never saw him as such a grave threat.
She opens the safe to clean, turns her back and gets blindsided.

/If he did try to purchase a firearm on his own but got turned down, IIRC that's supposed to trigger some phone calls.


I think he did try to buy a gun but got turned down.
 
2012-12-24 08:46:36 PM

Champion of the Sun: SquiggsIN: So someone who by law wasn't allowed to have a gun committed a mass shooting again.

Why do gun control advocates think that restricting guns is going to keep people like this from getting guns? He obviously, as a felon, was able to get a weapon. Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

This is why I'm tired of people calling for a debate or dialogue on gun control. One side of the 'debate' has the reasoning of a three year old. When my toddler doesn't want to go to bed I don't debate her, or start a dialogue. I put her to bed. Time for the adults in this country to make and enforce a bedtime. Gun nuts using the worst analogies and hypotheticals to ensure they can keep their toys aren't worthy of a debate.

If there weren't access to guns by people who currently qualify to own one, no criminal would be able to steal that legal gun. Probably bought it with no paperwork at a gun show or through a straw purchase anyways. Or stole it from his sister who could legally own it. If thieves can steal guns from responsible gun owners, they're not really responsible gun owners are they?


Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US
 
2012-12-24 08:48:35 PM
Lemme get this straight... not only was this a**hole let of prison after serving 17 YEARS for using his grandmother in a home version of "Whack-A-Mole", but another a**hole thought it was okay to sell or give him GUNS?

i1182.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-24 08:49:03 PM

Benjamin Orr: Champion of the Sun: SquiggsIN: So someone who by law wasn't allowed to have a gun committed a mass shooting again.

Why do gun control advocates think that restricting guns is going to keep people like this from getting guns? He obviously, as a felon, was able to get a weapon. Putting restrictions on legal gun ownership just puts law-abiding citizens at a disadvantage against the nutcases that have no intention of following whatever restrictions are in place anyway.

This is why I'm tired of people calling for a debate or dialogue on gun control. One side of the 'debate' has the reasoning of a three year old. When my toddler doesn't want to go to bed I don't debate her, or start a dialogue. I put her to bed. Time for the adults in this country to make and enforce a bedtime. Gun nuts using the worst analogies and hypotheticals to ensure they can keep their toys aren't worthy of a debate.

If there weren't access to guns by people who currently qualify to own one, no criminal would be able to steal that legal gun. Probably bought it with no paperwork at a gun show or through a straw purchase anyways. Or stole it from his sister who could legally own it. If thieves can steal guns from responsible gun owners, they're not really responsible gun owners are they?

Name one instance of prohibition that has worked in the US


Is there any gun regulation you would support.
 
2012-12-24 08:49:20 PM

It's Me Bender: I don't think I've seen race identified in a fark headline before.


Happens all the time. Especially in Obama headlines. And I've had at least one greenlight about Black Marines myself.
 
2012-12-24 08:51:41 PM
Seriously, if this 62 year old sh*t-for-brains thought up this plan, the rest of us better pick up our socks because that is frigging genius.
 
2012-12-24 08:51:47 PM
Need to have a permit for a hammer. Have hammer-frezones around schools, churches, etc. Maybe we can have a few hollywood types make an anti-hammer commercial. It's time to get moving folks.
 
2012-12-24 08:52:21 PM

way south: She opens the safe to clean, turns her back and gets blindsided.


Shot her in bed, possibly in her sleep.
 
2012-12-24 08:52:22 PM

i.chzbgr.com
SPENGLER! YOU ASSHOLE!
 
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