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(Miami Herald)   Guess which state lets dumb children into Advance Placement classes and wonders why they don't score higher on tests   (miamiherald.com) divider line 126
    More: Florida, Advanced Placement, high schools, College Board, ETS, adult educations, credit hours, class size, Broward Schools  
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8650 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 9:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-24 08:30:32 AM  
Dnrtfa

The schools get extra funding for each student in AP classes, so they pack them in as much as they can.

This is what happens when legislatue gives financial incentives for student "performance."
 
2012-12-24 08:40:09 AM  
"I'm gonna go write myself a minivan."

~Wally
 
2012-12-24 09:16:29 AM  
I was going to say "Texas", then I remembered there aren't enough smart kids in Texas to warrant an Advance Placement program. Then I saw the Florida tag and thought, "Hey, that makes sense."
 
2012-12-24 09:19:08 AM  
i758.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-24 09:21:43 AM  
Typical libtard reaction toward the dumb kids, so at least their *feelings* won't be hurt by being placed on the little bus.

/dnra
 
2012-12-24 09:22:29 AM  
 
2012-12-24 09:23:46 AM  
We want more minorities in advanced placement classes!

What do you mean, most of them didn't pass the tests? Make the tests easier!

What in god's name is a jive turkey?

/ you can't expect AP classes to have the exact same ratio of minorites as the rest of your school
 
GBB
2012-12-24 09:23:53 AM  
That's because AP is the new Honors
'B's are the new 'D's
PhDs are the new Masters Degree
Going-to-college is the new getting-a-job-straight-out-of-high-school
 
2012-12-24 09:25:39 AM  
Most states do this, and none of them wonder why the kids don't do better. It's considered discriminatory to exclude kids who want to take the classes even if everyone knows going in he has no chance of passing the test. When I took these tests 16 and 17 years ago, my parents had to pay the test fees. I'm pretty sure they can't do that anymore either.
 
2012-12-24 09:26:30 AM  
Maryland. Though, that don't just let them, they encourage them.
 
2012-12-24 09:30:36 AM  
My school wouldn't let me take the AP classes because I was a "discipline problem." I sat for the exams anyway; I had to cover the fee from each one, then the school reimbursed me the money when I passed.
 
2012-12-24 09:33:01 AM  

StrikitRich: Florida students' reading scores rank second in world


Doesn't say which world.


What Florida did was basically spend all their resources on the lowest performers. Now those same "lowest performers" are taking the AP classes.
 
2012-12-24 09:34:07 AM  
NC has this problem as well, There's a magnet school in Raleigh that is supposed to have 80% high achievers and 20% local population, however the ratio is reversed yet they still get the funding. A buddy of mine teaches AP math there, he was told by admin that no one can fail the tests in his class and no one can come out of the class with less than a B for the year. He's got 5 classes a day full of kids who can barely do fractions and he's required to give them passing grades that they simply don't earn in Trig and Pre-calc or even Algebra.
 
2012-12-24 09:34:35 AM  
New York.  I remember having a couple tards in my AP classes.  Made the rest of us feel better about ourselves.
 
2012-12-24 09:36:21 AM  
So, subtard, since the kids aren't able to speak that means they aren't bright enough to be in an AP class?

That is what you meant by, "dumb", right?
 
2012-12-24 09:36:42 AM  

JWideman: StrikitRich: Florida students' reading scores rank second in world


Doesn't say which world.

What Florida did was basically spend all their resources on the lowest performers. Now those same "lowest performers" are taking the AP classes.


So what you are saying is spending money on education works?
 
2012-12-24 09:49:26 AM  
Wow, there is more talking out of the ass here than I usually see. Start with Subby - no, the state isn't wondering why they don't score higher on the tests, it is understood from the beginning that expanding enrollment to AP classes will lower the average score. I know, that doesn't make as funny a headline.
 
2012-12-24 10:00:34 AM  
I tutor remedial-level math at a large, public comprehensive university. The students coming to us from high school are functionally illiterate in math. 60% of entering freshman need remedial math to start the college level curriculum - that's the national average and we meet it dead on. Our lowest level remedial math course starts at 6th grade math, and students are flunking it in record numbers. These are students who, no joke, need a calculator to multiply and divide and add or subtract more than 2 numbers.

The majority of the problem doesn't lie in high schools. The problem starts much earlier than that. Students don't understand the fundamentals of math like arithmetic, fractions, and postive/negative numbers, so when they get to high school level work - Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Precal - they are completely bewildered.
 
2012-12-24 10:02:12 AM  

Mambo Bananapatch: I was going to say "Texas", then I remembered there aren't enough smart kids in Texas to warrant an Advance Placement program. Then I saw the Florida tag and thought, "Hey, that makes sense."


Actually the idea comes out of a program from Texas. Laying the Foundation has tried to compete with College Board financially.

Most states are seeing what FLA is seeing.
 
2012-12-24 10:03:49 AM  

StrikitRich: JWideman: StrikitRich: Florida students' reading scores rank second in world


Doesn't say which world.

What Florida did was basically spend all their resources on the lowest performers. Now those same "lowest performers" are taking the AP classes.

So what you are saying is spending money on education works?


Nope. Those kids don't pass.
 
2012-12-24 10:04:50 AM  

Macular Degenerate: I tutor remedial-level math at a large, public comprehensive university. The students coming to us from high school are functionally illiterate in math. 60% of entering freshman need remedial math to start the college level curriculum - that's the national average and we meet it dead on. Our lowest level remedial math course starts at 6th grade math, and students are flunking it in record numbers. These are students who, no joke, need a calculator to multiply and divide and add or subtract more than 2 numbers.

The majority of the problem doesn't lie in high schools. The problem starts much earlier than that. Students don't understand the fundamentals of math like arithmetic, fractions, and postive/negative numbers, so when they get to high school level work - Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Precal - they are completely bewildered.


Problem lies with the push to get all students into college.
 
2012-12-24 10:08:48 AM  

Macular Degenerate: I tutor remedial-level math at a large, public comprehensive university. The students coming to us from high school are functionally illiterate in math. 60% of entering freshman need remedial math to start the college level curriculum - that's the national average and we meet it dead on. Our lowest level remedial math course starts at 6th grade math, and students are flunking it in record numbers. These are students who, no joke, need a calculator to multiply and divide and add or subtract more than 2 numbers.

The majority of the problem doesn't lie in high schools. The problem starts much earlier than that. Students don't understand the fundamentals of math like arithmetic, fractions, and postive/negative numbers, so when they get to high school level work - Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Precal - they are completely bewildered.



Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations. It doesn't help that pop culture depicts math as something you either magically "get" or you don't (Beautiful Mind, Good Will Hunting, etc).
 
2012-12-24 10:12:50 AM  

CreamFilling: Most states do this, and none of them wonder why the kids don't do better. It's considered discriminatory to exclude kids who want to take the classes even if everyone knows going in he has no chance of passing the test. When I took these tests 16 and 17 years ago, my parents had to pay the test fees. I'm pretty sure they can't do that anymore either.


There's that, and IIRC, I had to be "recommended" by teachers to be allowed to enroll in an AP class in the first place.

/ didn't take the AP Calculus I exam in 1986
// I suck at math...
 
2012-12-24 10:18:11 AM  

Wulfman: Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations. It doesn't help that pop culture depicts math as something you either magically "get" or you don't (Beautiful Mind, Good Will Hunting, etc).


I cringe every time I hear grown adults say "oh I'm bad at math" and most people just agree that's a reasonable thing to be bad at. If someone said "I can't read very well" most people would suggest they enroll in a class or get some self-help materials because they'd realize illiteracy is a big problem that will affect someone's life greatly.
 
2012-12-24 10:19:07 AM  

Wulfman:
Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations.


And they are right, math is fairly useless for the vast majority of people.
 
2012-12-24 10:20:17 AM  

itsdan: I cringe every time I hear grown adults say "oh I'm bad at math" and most people just agree that's a reasonable thing to be bad at. If someone said "I can't read very well" most people would suggest they enroll in a class or get some self-help materials because they'd realize illiteracy is a big problem that will affect someone's life greatly.


Probably because not reading will actually impede an average person's life, where an inability to factor is relevant to only a tiny cross-section of people.
 
2012-12-24 10:20:45 AM  

lilplatinum: Wulfman:
Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations.

And they are right, math is fairly useless for the vast majority of people.



[citation needed] Do you have any numbers to back that up?

/hint, it's a trap
 
2012-12-24 10:21:10 AM  

Forbidden Doughnut: CreamFilling: Most states do this, and none of them wonder why the kids don't do better. It's considered discriminatory to exclude kids who want to take the classes even if everyone knows going in he has no chance of passing the test. When I took these tests 16 and 17 years ago, my parents had to pay the test fees. I'm pretty sure they can't do that anymore either.

There's that, and IIRC, I had to be "recommended" by teachers to be allowed to enroll in an AP class in the first place.

/ didn't take the AP Calculus I exam in 1986
// I suck at math...


When I was in high school I had to be recommended for AP classes for freshman year, and then maintain a certain gpa to continue the following years.
 
2012-12-24 10:25:44 AM  
The answer is definitely Pennsylvania. My sister had classmates in her AP American History class last year who thought Al Gore was black, the American Revolution was a war over slavery, and New Jersey is a part of Pennsylvania. And when she reported her findings to the school board because as the student representative it was her responsibility to do so, she caught hell from the school (and encouragement from the school board - go figure).
 
2012-12-24 10:28:33 AM  

Wulfman: lilplatinum: Wulfman:
Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations.

And they are right, math is fairly useless for the vast majority of people.


[citation needed] Do you have any numbers to back that up?

/hint, it's a trap


What would you need advanced math for if you are not in a field that uses it? I passed the AP test in calc so I didn't have to be subjected to that nonsense throughout school, and I have used nothing I learned past 6 grade in the 13 years since. The only thing that was more a waste of my time from school was cursive... (Remember when they told you that thats how all adults write?)
 
2012-12-24 10:32:13 AM  

lilplatinum: Wulfman: lilplatinum: Wulfman:
Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations.

And they are right, math is fairly useless for the vast majority of people.


[citation needed] Do you have any numbers to back that up?

/hint, it's a trap

What would you need advanced math for if you are not in a field that uses it? I passed the AP test in calc so I didn't have to be subjected to that nonsense throughout school, and I have used nothing I learned past 6 grade in the 13 years since. The only thing that was more a waste of my time from school was cursive... (Remember when they told you that thats how all adults write?)



So we have moved the goalposts from "math" to "advanced math" in our conversation? I'm looking at exactly what you typed.
 
2012-12-24 10:36:19 AM  

Wulfman: So we have moved the goalposts from "math" to "advanced math" in our conversation? I'm looking at exactly what you typed.


Clarification is not "moving goalposts", and yes, I meant anything beyond basic math. Obviously basic arithmatic is used in daily life sometimes.. that is about all.
 
2012-12-24 10:37:36 AM  

lilplatinum: And they are right, math is fairly useless for the vast majority of people.


It's useless if you're planning on working a McJob for the rest of your life. But if you want a job that actually pays a decent wage, you're probably going to be working with budgets, figuring out percentages and proportions, and maybe figuring out some kind of simple algorithm.

If I went into a restaurant and asked my dinner companions to tell me what was on the menu because I couldn't read, people would look at me like I had three heads. But if I ask them to help me calculate the tip because "I suck at math," I'd hear rounds of sympathy from around the table. "It's OK - I suck at math too." We've allowed it to become acceptable to be math illiterate in this country, and that's farked up if you ask me.
 
2012-12-24 10:37:39 AM  

Macular Degenerate: I tutor remedial-level math at a large, public comprehensive university. The students coming to us from high school are functionally illiterate in math. 60% of entering freshman need remedial math to start the college level curriculum - that's the national average and we meet it dead on. Our lowest level remedial math course starts at 6th grade math, and students are flunking it in record numbers. These are students who, no joke, need a calculator to multiply and divide and add or subtract more than 2 numbers.

The majority of the problem doesn't lie in high schools. The problem starts much earlier than that. Students don't understand the fundamentals of math like arithmetic, fractions, and postive/negative numbers, so when they get to high school level work - Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Precal - they are completely bewildered.


I tutored math 302b which was theory of counting for teachers. You know why students fail the fundamentals with that class. Converting base 10 to any other base is the basis of the final. That class is the number one repeated class at my alma mater. Teachers don't understand fundamentals, how can their students.
 
2012-12-24 10:39:21 AM  

GBB: That's because AP is the new Honors
'B's are the new 'D's
PhDs are the new Masters Degree
Going-to-college is the new getting-a-job-straight-out-of-high-school


As a university & college prof, lecturer, instructor, I would like to point out that higher education was never meant for anyone other than the rich.
Think about that when you send your snowflake off to an eternity of debt.

No worries though, I'll be 77 before my loans are paid off - no lie - so I'm in the same boat
 
2012-12-24 10:39:43 AM  

lilplatinum: Clarification is not "moving goalposts", and yes, I meant anything beyond basic math. Obviously basic arithmatic is used in daily life sometimes.. that is about all.


What exact operations do you include in basic arithmetic? Obviously not integration or differentiation of functions; presumably, addition and multiplication. What else?
 
2012-12-24 10:40:16 AM  

lilplatinum: Wulfman: So we have moved the goalposts from "math" to "advanced math" in our conversation? I'm looking at exactly what you typed.

Clarification is not "moving goalposts", and yes, I meant anything beyond basic math. Obviously basic arithmatic is used in daily life sometimes.. that is about all.



So not statistics?
 
2012-12-24 10:41:33 AM  

Wulfman: Macular Degenerate: I tutor remedial-level math at a large, public comprehensive university. The students coming to us from high school are functionally illiterate in math. 60% of entering freshman need remedial math to start the college level curriculum - that's the national average and we meet it dead on. Our lowest level remedial math course starts at 6th grade math, and students are flunking it in record numbers. These are students who, no joke, need a calculator to multiply and divide and add or subtract more than 2 numbers.

The majority of the problem doesn't lie in high schools. The problem starts much earlier than that. Students don't understand the fundamentals of math like arithmetic, fractions, and postive/negative numbers, so when they get to high school level work - Algebra, Geometry, Trig, and Precal - they are completely bewildered.


Math is treated as an obstacle by most students and most parents, even a lot of smart and successful parents, and they view the ability to do math without a calculator about the same way that most people regard navigation by stars and compass - a pointless exercise that isn't seen as relevant to anybody's life going back several generations. It doesn't help that pop culture depicts math as something you either magically "get" or you don't (Beautiful Mind, Good Will Hunting, etc)that only socially awkward nerds get.


ftfy
 
2012-12-24 10:42:51 AM  
FTFA: The curriculum exposes them to more information. Students generally have to write more and under tight deadlines. The format is supposed to spur critical thinking, independent study and confidence.

God forbid that students try to challenge themselves and actually learn. FU Floriduh!!!
 
2012-12-24 10:43:04 AM  

Macular Degenerate: It's useless if you're planning on working a McJob for the rest of your life. But if you want a job that actually pays a decent wage, you're probably going to be working with budgets, figuring out percentages and proportions, and maybe figuring out some kind of simple algorithm.


I work as a ship broker, I have to run voyage calculations, figure out my commission, etc. Everything is done on a computer in about 5 seconds. Anyone with even the vaguest understanding of math could do it since you are not required to calculate anything yourself. I also use more math than the majority of people, "McJobs" or not.

Communications skills are infinitely more important to having a good job than being able to calculate things, unless you want to be an Engineer or so...

If I went into a restaurant and asked my dinner companions to tell me what was on the menu because I couldn't read, people would look at me like I had three heads. But if I ask them to help me calculate the tip because "I suck at math," I'd hear rounds of sympathy from around the table. "It's OK - I suck at math too." We've allowed it to become acceptable to be math illiterate in this country, and that's farked up if you ask me.

Yes, because reading is a more important skill and one that cannot be made up for by an app on your farking phone as of yet.
 
2012-12-24 10:43:07 AM  

StrikitRich: Florida students' reading scores rank second in world


Doesn't say which world.


Lemme know when their comprehension scores come in.
 
2012-12-24 10:43:29 AM  

MyRandomName: I tutored math 302b which was theory of counting for teachers. You know why students fail the fundamentals with that class. Converting base 10 to any other base is the basis of the final. That class is the number one repeated class at my alma mater. Teachers don't understand fundamentals, how can their students.


Obligatory.

Heck, it might even help you with the tutoring.
 
2012-12-24 10:45:23 AM  

abb3w: lilplatinum: Clarification is not "moving goalposts", and yes, I meant anything beyond basic math. Obviously basic arithmatic is used in daily life sometimes.. that is about all.

What exact operations do you include in basic arithmetic? Obviously not integration or differentiation of functions; presumably, addition and multiplication. What else?


Division? Being able to average something out? Fractions? I mean not much else for the average schmuck.. I can't recall ever factoring something in real life...

Wulfman: So not statistics?


For the average schmuck with no aspiration to be a good poker player? Figuring out statistics is probably not a very common activity..
 
2012-12-24 10:46:43 AM  

lilplatinum: If I went into a restaurant and asked my dinner companions to tell me what was on the menu because I couldn't read, people would look at me like I had three heads. But if I ask them to help me calculate the tip because "I suck at math," I'd hear rounds of sympathy from around the table. "It's OK - I suck at math too." We've allowed it to become acceptable to be math illiterate in this country, and that's farked up if you ask me.

Yes, because reading is a more important skill and one that cannot be made up for by an app on your farking phone as of yet.



I'm going to quibble with this. I've traveled in countries where I didn't speak the language and English wasn't widely spoken there. I managed to get delicious food everywhere despite not being able to read the menu. My point with this is that I'm not sure I want basic utility to be the foundation for the curriculum at my children's schools.
 
2012-12-24 10:50:35 AM  

lilplatinum: For the average schmuck with no aspiration to be a good poker player? Figuring out statistics is probably not a very common activity..


Probability is a slightly different branch than statistics, though they're related.

However, statistics kind of basic to understanding the significance of opinion polls... and understanding that your personal circle of acquaintance are likely to be a somewhat different from a representative sample of the US.
 
2012-12-24 10:51:21 AM  

lilplatinum: Wulfman: So not statistics?

For the average schmuck with no aspiration to be a good poker player? Figuring out statistics is probably not a very common activity..


I've got to run (gym in 26 minutes) but I suspect we're not so much at odds here as I initially thought. I don't agree with the above, however. Stats are such a great way for politicians and salesmen and advertisers to manipulate the innumerate, I don't see how schools can justify not offering it. That and basic econ would be much more useful than calc, regardless of the field the student intends to pursue. Hell, I used stats more than calc even when I worked as a physicist.
 
2012-12-24 10:51:47 AM  

Wulfman: My point with this is that I'm not sure I want basic utility to be the foundation for the curriculum at my children's schools.


There's also the utility of opportunity.
 
2012-12-24 10:52:55 AM  

Wulfman: I'm going to quibble with this. I've traveled in countries where I didn't speak the language and English wasn't widely spoken there. I managed to get delicious food everywhere despite not being able to read the menu. My point with this is that I'm not sure I want basic utility to be the foundation for the curriculum at my children's schools.


I have lived in both China and Germany years and got some farked up shiat on my table due to not being able to read the menu. A lack of an ability to read or communicate is far more impactful in your daily life than a lack of proficiency in math.
 
rpm
2012-12-24 10:53:49 AM  

lilplatinum: For the average schmuck with no aspiration to be a good poker player? Figuring out statistics is probably not a very common activity..


No, but being played by statistics is common, so a good grounding is essential.
 
2012-12-24 10:56:04 AM  

abb3w: Probability is a slightly different branch than statistics, though they're related.

However, statistics kind of basic to understanding the significance of opinion polls... and understanding that your personal circle of acquaintance are likely to be a somewhat different from a representative sample of the US.


Working in a largely financial field I would estimate that my personal circle of acquaintance involves more math activities than the majority of Americans working in non technical jobs.

And yes, one is a more educated consumer of media if one understands how polls work, but for the average day to day life of the average American this is a fairly academic point.
 
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