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(New York Daily News)   NRA: "Israel only stopped school shootings by putting armed security guards in their schools." Israel: "Yeah, about that"   (nydailynews.com) divider line 241
    More: Obvious, NRA, school shootings, Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel, northern israel, Jewish state, corporals, gun ownership, Israeli citizen  
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23845 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Dec 2012 at 8:59 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-24 09:32:16 AM

Farkage: Shadowknight: Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.

Virginia Tech Police didn't go in the buildings. I went to school there so don't pretend you know anything I don't. The soldiers at Fort Hood had no access to their weapons, so how could that have helped?"



If only the U.S. military taught its soldiers unarmed combat.
 
2012-12-24 09:33:45 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Any bets on how long until LaPierre is laughed out of his job?


He will never be. He has the support of millions upon millions of armed idiots.
 
2012-12-24 09:34:04 AM

Chariset: I wonder how much overlap there is between those who support arming teachers and those who said a month ago that teachers are overpaid, underworked unionists who live high on the hog while Real Amerikans struggle in "real" jobs.


THIS THIS THIS

I've been trying to communicate this idea for two weeks now, but haven't been able to find the words. Thank you.
 
2012-12-24 09:35:23 AM

Chariset: I wonder how much overlap there is between those who support arming teachers and those who said a month ago that teachers are overpaid, underworked unionists who live high on the hog while Real Amerikans struggle in "real" jobs.


A lot.
 
2012-12-24 09:36:28 AM

Elzar: Oh hai all you anti-semite gun haters. You know who else hated jews with guns?

/ this is what the NRA really believes


Already on FB one of my friends posted a jpeg claiming that Adolf Hitler banned guns, therefore banning guns is evil.

We've resorted to Reducto Ad Hitlerum.
 
2012-12-24 09:36:45 AM

Snatch Bandergrip: Chariset: I wonder how much overlap there is between those who support arming teachers and those who said a month ago that teachers are overpaid, underworked unionists who live high on the hog while Real Amerikans struggle in "real" jobs.

THIS THIS THIS

I've been trying to communicate this idea for two weeks now, but haven't been able to find the words. Thank you.


I asked this question of a buch of Tea Partiers. They said that it's irrelevant whether they're incompetent at teaching kids and they should be allowed to protect themselves/forced to protect the kids. Presumably at lower pay still.
 
2012-12-24 09:37:51 AM
I think it's past time when gun control legislation can be effective. The NRA, with the willing support of a vast number of Americans, has arranged things so that there are so many guns that it is near impossible to "control" them. How do we propose to confiscate these weapons without initiating a bloodbath, or even a civil war?

It may be that their insane solution of armed police patrolling schools is the only solution left. What a sick country.
 
2012-12-24 09:38:37 AM
The problem can only be either mental health or guns. It can't possibly be both at the same time. YOU MUST CHOOSE!
 
2012-12-24 09:39:00 AM

spcMike: Shadowknight: Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.

We don't carry weapons on Post.


Bullshiat. Security Forces and MPs are always armed.
 
2012-12-24 09:39:09 AM
My gun-nut cousins were all over this "Israel arms teachers" nonsense for a good solid 3 days, until I finally got fed up and found a "Lol, no" link to post in response. I got a "Well well well I guess we need fences/armed security personnel", but it at least stopped the flow of tasteless viral Facebook pics for a while.

They didn't have Word One to say to me at our Christmas get-together the other night, so I think I might be persona non grata after my betrayal, which honestly is fine by me. At least this year he didn't use Grandma's money to buy and wrap himself a box of 9mm shells, then spend 10 minutes telling everyone how he probably wouldn't be able to buy them next year.
 
2012-12-24 09:40:32 AM
What i would like to know is how do these countries (with strict gun regulation) keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

/serious question
 
2012-12-24 09:44:35 AM

heinekenftw: Elzar: Oh hai all you anti-semite gun haters. You know who else hated jews with guns?

/ this is what the NRA really believes

Already on FB one of my friends posted a jpeg claiming that Adolf Hitler banned guns, therefore banning guns is evil.

We've resorted to Reducto Ad Hitlerum.


It's not as if history really matters... mankind always makes the same mistakes only the names change.
 
2012-12-24 09:46:12 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: What i would like to know is how do these countries (with strict gun regulation) keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

/serious question



Economics. More regulations means fewer guns sold or possessed. Fewer guns means limited supply. Limited supply means the price for guns and ammo is higher. Higher prices proclude certain criminals from committing gun crimes. What's the point of paying $700 for a pistol and ammo to rob $250 from a local grocery store?

It's the same reason there aren't many crimes committed in the U.S. with fully automatic weapons.
 
2012-12-24 09:46:40 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Any bets on how long until LaPierre is laughed out of his job?


At this point I'm almost wondering if the NRA is playing rope-a-dope to drive the panic sale of guns through the roof before they call in their markers with politicians and media to shut it all down, or wait for the debt ceiling to cut any measures out.

Or better yet, I'm betting the counter gambit will be "any law limiting assault weapons has to include open carry of all other weapons" whereupon they can have another rush to sell "carry legal" weapons specifically designed to circumvent the ban.
 
2012-12-24 09:47:09 AM

nucular_option: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7501666/81477700#c81477700" target="_blank">Shadowknight</a>:</b> <i>Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.</i>

The Columbine guards did not handle the improvised grenades very well...
VT's police were a ways away and not in the building...
Ft. Hood's security was contract security and a ways away...

To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society. Don't bring a Calculus book to a gunfight.


And exactly how are you going to ensure that every gun wielder is sane, sober, and friendly? No to mentioned trained and competent?

What's your plan for that good sir?

/people use tools to make tasks easier
//when tools are available people will use them
///guns are tools that make killing and maiming people easy
 
2012-12-24 09:47:37 AM

born_yesterday:


I'm curious; did part of the class cover when NOT to draw? If so, how much emphasis was placed on the individuals responsibilities in a live fire situation?

/Honest question
//Thank you in advance


Yes, much of the classes were learning not to draw and understanding the consequences of when you draw. Basically it came down to two sentences: "If you are in a situation where someone is being threatened and you are not, don't be a hero and call the cops. If you are in a situation where it is the other guy or you, then defend yourself."
 
2012-12-24 09:49:26 AM

Daquin: born_yesterday:


I'm curious; did part of the class cover when NOT to draw? If so, how much emphasis was placed on the individuals responsibilities in a live fire situation?

/Honest question
//Thank you in advance

Yes, much of the classes were learning not to draw and understanding the consequences of when you draw. Basically it came down to two sentences: "If you are in a situation where someone is being threatened and you are not, don't be a hero and call the cops. If you are in a situation where it is the other guy or you, then defend yourself."


The lesson, in a nutshell, is this: If you have to pull your gun for ANY reason, you already lost.
 
2012-12-24 09:49:55 AM

nucular_option: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7501666/81477700#c81477700" target="_blank">Shadowknight</a>:</b> <i>Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.</i>

The Columbine guards did not handle the improvised grenades very well...
VT's police were a ways away and not in the building...
Ft. Hood's security was contract security and a ways away...

To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society. Don't bring a Calculus book to a gunfight.


Because Somalia and Afghanistan are so polite. Next!
 
2012-12-24 09:50:38 AM
Isn't the only difference between a terrorist and a homicidal maniac that someone with a political agenda brainwashed the terrorist to do it where as the nut-jobs brainwash themselves?
 
2012-12-24 09:51:58 AM

born_yesterday: BalugaJoe: If you have a gun then someone the Predator aliens can shoot you.

You guys go ahead and like up to be a hot meal. I saw Predator 2; you want to be fair game; you'll be crying for your mommies and wishin' you'd never been born, just like you were when you saw Predator 2.


Yeah but in Predator - the original - Arnie killed the alien with a knife and some trees.  TREES!
 
2012-12-24 09:53:07 AM

I'm an Egyptian!: nucular_option: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7501666/81477700#c81477700" target="_blank">Shadowknight</a>:</b> <i>Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.</i>

The Columbine guards did not handle the improvised grenades very well...
VT's police were a ways away and not in the building...
Ft. Hood's security was contract security and a ways away...

To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society. Don't bring a Calculus book to a gunfight.

Because Somalia and Afghanistan are so polite. Next!


I heard they smile when they shoot... that's polite, right?
 
2012-12-24 09:53:41 AM

I'm an Egyptian!: Because Somalia and Afghanistan are so polite. Next!


What we need to do is issue assault rifles to all children over 9 years old.  That's why there's no violence in Africa.
 
2012-12-24 09:53:43 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Any bets on how long until LaPierre is laughed out of his job?


Yeah, he's been in the leadership role in the NRA for close to 20 years. The only time that he hasn't been the voice of the NRA in that time is when Chuck Heston was president.
 
2012-12-24 09:54:01 AM

nucular_option: To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society.


I'd rather not live in a culture where an arguement with the neighbor about his dog crapping on my front lawn naturally escalates to pistols at dawn.
 
2012-12-24 09:55:27 AM

ElBarto79: It's a fundamentally different situation


Yes.
Terrorists attack in groups.
 
2012-12-24 09:56:04 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: I'm an Egyptian!: nucular_option: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7501666/81477700#c81477700" target="_blank">Shadowknight</a>:</b> <i>Columbine had armed security guards.

Virginia Tech had it's own police department.

Fort Hood was a farking military base.

Tell me again how more guns will solve things.</i>

The Columbine guards did not handle the improvised grenades very well...
VT's police were a ways away and not in the building...
Ft. Hood's security was contract security and a ways away...

To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society. Don't bring a Calculus book to a gunfight.

Because Somalia and Afghanistan are so polite. Next!

I heard they smile when they shoot... that's polite, right?


Hmm. Never thought of it that way. I guess an armed society is a polite society. A bloody one, but polite. Dare I say, mission accomplished?
 
2012-12-24 09:56:25 AM

way south: ElBarto79: It's a fundamentally different situation

Yes.
Terrorists attack in groups.


Or loosley grouped pieces...
 
2012-12-24 09:58:15 AM
HindiDiscoMonster:

What i would like to know is how do these countries (with strict gun regulation) keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

/serious question


Consistent national-level laws, background checks, and it probably helps that they don't have such a farked up enforcement system and have a few million fewer guns floating around to begin with.

We have a patchwork of arbitrary state laws which basically means that there's a steady flow of guns from states with lax laws allowing "collector" sales from the trunks of cars at gun shows and no limits on how many a "collector" can buy in a month to states that actually have gun laws.

On top of that, at least in my state the local and state police can't enforce gun laws. They have to depend on the ATF for that, and that leads to absolutely insane incidents like this one where a gun shop "lost" almost 500 guns, it took 6 years for it to grind through the system, and when they finally did get busted the owners just sold their stock to a friend and effectively just transferred the shop from one pocket to the other.
 
2012-12-24 09:59:27 AM

imontheinternet: I'm an Egyptian!: Because Somalia and Afghanistan are so polite. Next!

What we need to do is issue assault rifles to all children over 9 years old.  That's why there's no violence in Africa.


Yeah, but how many school shootings do you hear about? Granted all the schools are all shot up and destroyed, but you don't hear about school shootings! This is evidence we should be arming 9 year olds!
 
2012-12-24 09:59:47 AM

evilmrsock: "It would be better not to drag Israel into what is an internal American discussion," he added.

What a weird sentiment. I wonder what would happen if you reversed it?


Tatsuma would accuse you of anti semitism.
 
2012-12-24 10:00:13 AM
What the NRA believes all security guards in schools look like
lifeinsurancebyjeff.com
What an actual security guard in a school tends to look like
www.hudsonlee.com
 
2012-12-24 10:00:45 AM

ElBarto79: I've seen numerous people posting this picture on Facebook and my first thought each time was "you know, she's not trying to protect those kids from their own citizens, she's trying to protect them from terrorists." It's a fundamentally different situation and shouldn't be seen as a model for us to follow in our own borders where our people *should* be able to walk around without fear of being shot.


And if three seconds later a crazed man casually strolled up behind her and shot her in the back of the head you'd have every gun nut saying "well, she didn't have the gun in her hands" or "she was busy watching the kids.". Just like above in this very thread: more guns are the answer, several instances of gun violence are mentioned where there were armed individuals around to stop them, and then there is a barrage of excuses.
 
2012-12-24 10:02:55 AM

Prince George: Isn't the only difference between a terrorist and a homicidal maniac that someone with a political agenda brainwashed the terrorist to do it where as the nut-jobs brainwash themselves?


Hooray for the self-made man?
 
2012-12-24 10:03:44 AM

Chariset: I wonder how much overlap there is between those who support arming teachers and those who said a month ago that teachers are overpaid, underworked unionists who live high on the hog while Real Amerikans struggle in "real" jobs.


i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-24 10:04:35 AM
Want a gun utopia? Look at parts of Africa.
/Off to find the pic of the African woman with a baby and gun
 
2012-12-24 10:06:44 AM

wildsnowllama: ElBarto79: I've seen numerous people posting this picture on Facebook and my first thought each time was "you know, she's not trying to protect those kids from their own citizens, she's trying to protect them from terrorists." It's a fundamentally different situation and shouldn't be seen as a model for us to follow in our own borders where our people *should* be able to walk around without fear of being shot.

And if three seconds later a crazed man casually strolled up behind her and shot her in the back of the head you'd have every gun nut saying "well, she didn't have the gun in her hands" or "she was busy watching the kids.". Just like above in this very thread: more guns are the answer, several instances of gun violence are mentioned where there were armed individuals around to stop them, and then there is a barrage of excuses.


You're right. I don't even know why these gungrabbers are even whining about 20 kids. Hey, they were growing up in Godless Connecticut, and would have grown up to be libs, anyway. No great loss. Plus, we need to remember that freedom isn't free. The tree of liberty needs to be watered. We should be honoring the sacrifice of those 26 individuals. They laid their lives at the altar of freedom.
 
2012-12-24 10:07:04 AM

maxheck: HindiDiscoMonster:

What i would like to know is how do these countries (with strict gun regulation) keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

/serious question

Consistent national-level laws, background checks, and it probably helps that they don't have such a farked up enforcement system and have a few million fewer guns floating around to begin with.

We have a patchwork of arbitrary state laws which basically means that there's a steady flow of guns from states with lax laws allowing "collector" sales from the trunks of cars at gun shows and no limits on how many a "collector" can buy in a month to states that actually have gun laws.

On top of that, at least in my state the local and state police can't enforce gun laws. They have to depend on the ATF for that, and that leads to absolutely insane incidents like this one where a gun shop "lost" almost 500 guns, it took 6 years for it to grind through the system, and when they finally did get busted the owners just sold their stock to a friend and effectively just transferred the shop from one pocket to the other.


That certainly explains much. I don't see a solution for us that does not radically alter the rights we have under the 2nd. Perhaps Federal regulation of any rifle that is not a single shot (bolt action) weapon or shotgun (max of 2 shells), or no more than a revolver for a handgun. Everything else requiring Federal licensing. In addition, weapons confiscated during arrest would have to actually be destroyed, not find their way back to the street. There are a few other things, but typing in a touchscreen sucks.
 
2012-12-24 10:08:00 AM
And make sure they are trained in those special evasion techniques
cdn.bleacherreport.net
 
2012-12-24 10:10:48 AM

ElBarto79:
I've seen numerous people posting this picture on Facebook and my first thought each time was "you know, she's not trying to protect those kids from their own citizens, she's trying to protect them from terrorists." It's a fundamentally different situation and shouldn't be seen as a model for us to follow in our own borders where our people *should* be able to walk around without fear of being shot.


So Israeli Arabs who commit mass killings of innocents are somehow fundamentally different than American Whites who commit mass killings of innocents?? Wow, the word "terrorist" means even less than I thought it did.
 
2012-12-24 10:13:49 AM

toomuchwhargarbl: ElBarto79:
I've seen numerous people posting this picture on Facebook and my first thought each time was "you know, she's not trying to protect those kids from their own citizens, she's trying to protect them from terrorists." It's a fundamentally different situation and shouldn't be seen as a model for us to follow in our own borders where our people *should* be able to walk around without fear of being shot.

So Israeli Arabs who commit mass killings of innocents are somehow fundamentally different than American Whites who commit mass killings of innocents?? Wow, the word "terrorist" means even less than I thought it did.


You certainly seem to live up to your name.
 
2012-12-24 10:15:00 AM
I was told the wild pigs in Israel had nothing to fear
 
2012-12-24 10:15:33 AM
I've been reading that the joos are funding this campaign to take away our guns, so of course Israel is saying that.
 
2012-12-24 10:15:53 AM
I think there are three very important words in the 2nd Amendment.

/well regulated militia
//well regulated
//regulated
 
2012-12-24 10:15:55 AM

willfullyobscure: I was told the wild pigs in Israel had nothing to fear


Only the kosher ones have to fear.
 
2012-12-24 10:16:11 AM

Karac: nucular_option: To "solve things" you need friendly guns close by at every turn. An armed society is a polite society.

I'd rather not live in a culture where an arguement with the neighbor about his dog crapping on my front lawn naturally escalates to pistols at dawn.


I really wish people would keep reading past Washingtons "an armed society is a safe society" quote so they'd realize he was talking about Western expansion into Native territory and the very real possibilty that England might invade via Upper Canada.

/F*cking context, how does it work?
 
2012-12-24 10:19:31 AM
You would think that these right wing idiots would have learned by now that with the speed that information flows around the world these days that they cannot make public lies like this anymore with out them quickly being debunked. But they probably don't care because they know their base will defend their lie no matter what facts are brought up to prove it wrong. I'm pretty sure that some right wing site is preparing some kind of story to attack this Israeli spokesman and call him a liar.

But I also find it funny that so many right wingers are screaming that we should have the same approach as Israel when it comes to guns because they let everybody have guns. Then we hear the reality.

Despite having a standing army of more than 100,000 and police and security guards carrying guns on the street, Israel has strict firearms licensing and supervision.

Licenses must be renewed regularly and cannot be issued to people with a history of mental problems or a criminal background.


So I agree with the NRA and gun nuts, lets be more like Israel when it comes to guns.
 
2012-12-24 10:19:46 AM
Twenty-five people were killed as Israeli commandos stormed the building, 22 of them children.

Isreali has CHILDREN working as commandos???

Maybe that's what we need to do: ARM THE CHILDREN!!!!!
 
2012-12-24 10:23:09 AM

Mambo Bananapatch: I think it's past time when gun control legislation can be effective. The NRA, with the willing support of a vast number of Americans, has arranged things so that there are so many guns that it is near impossible to "control" them. How do we propose to confiscate these weapons without initiating a bloodbath, or even a civil war?


As an owner of a scary black rifle I'd just like to say that I fully believe that the 2nd Amendment was doomed from its inception, per the nature of wealth/power to consolidate until large scale and very bloody events like civil wars happen to end such concentrations. You're right that at this point It's just a very long game to see if the citizenry's right to defense from other violent men whether or not they represent an entrenched power structure such as a government can be incrementally revoked before it actually requires exercise.
 
2012-12-24 10:24:14 AM
Here's another reason why the "put a guard in every school" plan is a poorly thought out and impractical:

The high school I went to was composed of 6 buildings on nearly 20 acres. You'd need a minimum of 6 guards, but realistically 10 or more. I think the schools budget was about $14 million; the Atlantic estimated the cost of a guard with benefits is about $90k; increasing the budget by $1 million on a non-programatic expenses is huge and never going to happen. It's just not realistic. And that's to say nothing about the increased cost of insurance from having so many guns on campus.
 
2012-12-24 10:24:30 AM

Poot beer: I think there are three very important words in the 2nd Amendment.

/well regulated militia
//well regulated
//regulated



The problem is you're assuming most NRA supporters can read.
 
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