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(WebMD)   Study completed by scientists who were all rejected by Mensa says that IQ tests do not measure all types of intelligence   (webmd.com) divider line 46
    More: Obvious, IQ tests, Mensa, short-term memory, oversimplifications, natural sciences, MIND Institute  
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1555 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 Dec 2012 at 12:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-22 12:24:22 PM
Well, yeah. Trying to measure IQ often depends on the environment where the subject was raised and lives in. In high school, I knew some kids who seemed to be rather dull-witted and didn't do well -- until you got them onto their home turf, usually the Florida wild woods.

Then they basically became wilderness experts with an impressive knowledge and ability to cope with the wilds.

In my time, we didn't have video games, but we had pinball. Many a 'slacker' who teachers were convinced needed to look at their ID cards to spell their own names would show up at the pinball parlor and make those machines dance.

When I took a test to get into nursing school, it was a lengthy thing, designed to weed out most of the applicants. There were 500 of us for 40 seats and those 40 seats would be whittled down to thirty, followed by a culling out to 20. After that, you were on your own concerning graduation.

The test had mechanical parts on it that stumped me. From a car. A Model-T!! They didn't have distributors -- nor oil pans and oil pumps. They had spark advance and 'automatic oilers' that sat atop the engine like an octopus, once you set the many little valves to drip oil on the moving parts, it drained right out onto the road. They also didn't have hydraulic brakes but a brake lever and friction pads.
I've not figured out just why that section was in the test.

Now I've met some incredibly smart folks, who would have a problem using a hand can opener. There have been many I've met whose IQ is somewhat intimidating but they'd have a problem using microwave dinners.

I get hysterical when I see these folks in high end SUVs, get a simple flat and can't figure out the jack or how to change the tire. They have to call a service. (Nor does it dawn on them to carry a can of fix-a-flat.)
IQ is basically a measurement of all of one's combined skills. I can't do higher mathematics, but I made it into the final 20 of my nursing class. (I was real happy when they came out with these tiny, electronic calculators later on that could do so much more than the old 8 pound electric desk versions.)

When the computer age hit, a host of previously dull folks suddenly not only understood the complexities of computer code, but thrived on it. Some seemed to have problems dressing themselves, but they wrote the codes that make your systems sing today.

Then you have the 'Idiot Savant' a person who is a genius at one thing but needs a keeper to survive in daily life.

I have been around folks whose major skills consist of mopping floors and not much else.

 I worked construction with over muscled guys whose favorite past time was bar fights, seemed to have problems grasping the finer points of speaking and apparently had nearly given up thinking. Yet, they could frame a house expertly and quickly, with no wasted motions and nearly no errors. Some made cuts basically by sight, without all that new fangled measuring twice or calculating angles. They looked, they saw what was needed and they sliced it out of the wood.

Essentially, they did automatic calculations of angles and stress points in their heads. At a glance! And they failed high school basic math!

IO tests give you the basics. It's hard to try and factor in all of the complexities. Personality tests are easier.
 
2012-12-22 01:04:57 PM
The difference between ignorant and educated people is that the latter know more facts. But that has nothing to do with whether they are stupid or intelligent. The difference between stupid and intelligent people-and this is true whether or not they are well-educated-is that intelligent people can handle subtlety. They are not baffled by ambiguous or even contradictory situations-in fact, they expect them and are apt to become suspicious when things seem overly straightforward.
 
2012-12-22 01:05:34 PM
Done in one. My ex was smart as shiat "book wise", but outside of school she was as dumb as a carrot.
 
2012-12-22 01:16:08 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Done in one. My ex was smart as shiat "book wise", but outside of school she was as dumb as a carrot.


I see what you did there...

+1
 
2012-12-22 01:18:31 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Done in one. My ex was smart as shiat "book wise", but outside of school she was as dumb as a carrot.


What you and Rik01 seem unable to understand is that there's a difference between knowledge, skill, and intelligence. People who are literally mentally retarded can be taught, so knowing information isn't a sign of intelligence. Being able to play pinball really well is a skill that can be developed over time.
 
2012-12-22 01:24:33 PM
So is slacking. Unless you're compiling, then it's ok.

imgs.xkcd.com
 
2012-12-22 01:36:38 PM
Rik01:

That was a really long-winded way to say that people gravitate toward their niches.
 
2012-12-22 01:49:34 PM
Do you know what the point of joining Mensa is? To brag about belonging to Mensa.
 
2012-12-22 02:12:31 PM

Jarhead_h: Do you know what the point of joining Mensa is? To brag about belonging to Mensa.


meh, almost anyone can get into mensa, 2 sigma only? MEH get back to me if you are in 4 sigma.

I have never understood these discussions. Is it just that tards think that IQ test everything? That any test is perfect and tests everyone uniformly?

All tests are biased.
No test tests everything.
Tests are still useful within the scope of what they measure to split the test takers into strata.

A math test covering everything up to calculus would allow you to find the people who cant add and separate them from the people who can do fractions, geometry and trig. This has value in certain places.

IQ tests have been able to predict "success." They are also very useful in weeding out the people who are too stupid to understand distributions and probability.
 
2012-12-22 02:14:40 PM
I prefer Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences.

Mozart probably wasn't a fan of Algebra, but he was a musical genius.
 
2012-12-22 02:18:34 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Done in one. My ex was smart as shiat "book wise", but outside of school she was as dumb as a carrot.


You've just described half of Fark.
 
2012-12-22 02:24:38 PM

Jarhead_h: Do you know what the point of joining Mensa is? To brag about belonging to Mensa.


It depends on the person. I joined at the end of grad school because my resume was about a quarter of a sheet long even with increasing the font size to comical levels. So I joined for a year and added it to the activities section of my resume. The magazine for members was actually interesting but not interesting enough to cover the annual dues. The newsletter I got from the local chapter was a joke. I didn't see a point to paying dues when I wasn't getting much out of it. But I've met people who are members who are really involved with their local chapter and go to the national conventions. For them it's a social group where they're not mocked for getting enjoyment out of solving puzzles and playing games based on logic. No one has to apologize for being smart.

Kudos to subby for not using all caps to spell Mensa. Not sure why so many people make that mistake, especially when most Mensa literature uses all lowercase.
 
2012-12-22 02:29:58 PM
Old news.

The Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale has been using multiple subscores since 1997:

upload.wikimedia.org

My score? "Unable to assign" due to the extreme range of subscores.
 
2012-12-22 02:31:44 PM
What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?
 
2012-12-22 02:45:20 PM

WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?


They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)
 
2012-12-22 02:46:20 PM

diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)


Dammit.
 
2012-12-22 02:52:56 PM

WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?


Emotional intelligence? You mean those brilliant people who know how to emotionally manipulate people into giving them exactly what they want, like say, getting people riled up on the internet so they act like fools or getting the whole congregation to give more money due to a hypnotic preacher speech that played their heartstrings like a banjo?

Nope, can't trust those people.
 
2012-12-22 02:57:23 PM

diaphoresis: diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)

Dammit.


you ONLY have two people on ignore?
you must NEVER go into a political thread or global warming
 
2012-12-22 02:58:10 PM
"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. Also, Mensa sucks."

-Socrates
 
2012-12-22 03:19:46 PM

EngineerAU: It depends on the person. I joined at the end of grad school because my resume was about a quarter of a sheet long even with increasing the font size to comical levels. So I joined for a year and added it to the activities section of my resume.


Most recruiters will tell you to leave Mensa off of your resume.
 
2012-12-22 03:31:16 PM

Rik01: Nor does it dawn on them to carry a can of fix-a-flat.


Given the price of tires for most SUVs, fix-a-flat is a good way to turn a $10 patch job at your local garage into a couple hundred dollars for two new tires.
 
2012-12-22 03:36:07 PM
What I find a lot more helpful than intelligence is taste. Some really smart people like some really stupid crap and others who probably don't do so well on IQ tests like some pretty refined shiat. But, mostly, I tend to hang around with people like me who think more conceptually, who often can't see the trees for the forest.
 
2012-12-22 03:50:50 PM

Teufelaffe: Rik01: Nor does it dawn on them to carry a can of fix-a-flat.

Given the price of tires for most SUVs, fix-a-flat is a good way to turn a $10 patch job at your local garage into a couple hundred dollars for two new tires.


Two?
 
2012-12-22 03:55:06 PM
I figure anyone who pays dues to stay in a club with no agenda other than exclusivity can't be all that smart.
 
2012-12-22 04:00:38 PM

Honest Bender: Teufelaffe: Rik01: Nor does it dawn on them to carry a can of fix-a-flat.

Given the price of tires for most SUVs, fix-a-flat is a good way to turn a $10 patch job at your local garage into a couple hundred dollars for two new tires.

Two?


You replace tires in pairs, or the different levels of wear can fark up your alignment, ABS functionality, and cause uneven wear on suspension components.
 
2012-12-22 04:52:21 PM

mjbok: Most recruiters will tell you to leave Mensa off of your resume.


It was twelve years ago so it really doesn't matter now that I have tons of material to fill out the resume. I do laugh when I see a resume with "Who's Who" on it.
 
2012-12-22 06:01:03 PM

Teufelaffe: Honest Bender: Teufelaffe: Rik01: Nor does it dawn on them to carry a can of fix-a-flat.

Given the price of tires for most SUVs, fix-a-flat is a good way to turn a $10 patch job at your local garage into a couple hundred dollars for two new tires.

Two?

You replace tires in pairs, or the different levels of wear can fark up your alignment, ABS functionality, and cause uneven wear on suspension components.


He may have been implying that, depending on the level of wear on the tires, you might not be buying two, but four. If the tires are half worn or so, may as well get all new ones rather than stress the clutch pack or transfer case.

So yeah, that little $10 can can get EXPENSIVE.
 
2012-12-22 07:33:22 PM

namatad: diaphoresis: diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)

Dammit.

you ONLY have two people on ignore?
you must NEVER go into a political thread or global warming


lol.. actually I do, but I am not as intolerant of other people's opinions as they are of mine.

Se la vie
 
2012-12-22 07:47:56 PM

diaphoresis: namatad: diaphoresis: diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)

Dammit.

you ONLY have two people on ignore?
you must NEVER go into a political thread or global warming

lol.. actually I do, but I am not as intolerant of other people's opinions as they are of mine.

Se la vie


Maybe you're just utdeliberatingess because you have no opinion, because you have the IQ of an old carrot and can't. think for yourself.

/not serious, just trying for #3
//and no I am never deliberately a troll, inspite of folks in politics threads who want me to be one so they can ignore what I'm saying (or me).
 
2012-12-22 07:51:37 PM

Animatronik: diaphoresis: namatad: diaphoresis: diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)

Dammit.

you ONLY have two people on ignore?
you must NEVER go into a political thread or global warming

lol.. actually I do, but I am not as intolerant of other people's opinions as they are of mine.

Se la vie

Maybe you're just utdeliberatingess because you have no opinion, because you have the IQ of an old carrot and can't. think for yourself.

/not serious, just trying for #3
//and no I am never deliberately a troll, inspite of folks in politics threads who want me to be one so they can ignore what I'm saying (or me).


Well either its 4 months early for April Fool's or my IQ isn't high enough to type on this new device :(
Still oughta be good enough to get me #3.
 
2012-12-22 08:10:32 PM
I guy I helped through high school who could barely read is now a multi-millionare. He owns a junk yard in Detroit. If money is how you measure success he is successful.
 
2012-12-22 08:24:18 PM

Saborlas: I prefer Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligences.

Mozart probably wasn't a fan of Algebra, but he was a musical genius.


MI has some severe flaws and should not be considered a theory of intelligence but a framework for recognizing variability in aptitude and dismissing global intelligence as global altitude. Otherwise, MI is unsupported in the literature and woefully misapplied in education instruction.
 
2012-12-22 08:33:05 PM

namatad: diaphoresis: diaphoresis: WhippingBoy: What about "EQ" or any other crap stupid people use to make themselves feel better?

They are known as The Fark Elites.

I have 2 people on ignore. The Fark Elites have dozens. It makes them feel superior.

;-)

Dammit.

you ONLY have two people on ignore?
you must NEVER go into a political thread or global warming


Not everybody quakes in their shoes at the thought of reading opinions that differ from theirs. Ignore filters are for closed minds.
 
2012-12-22 09:06:40 PM
A good friend of mine lost half his brain in a motorcycle accident. The doctors said his IQ would be about 65 after that. Now he makes scale-model college stadiums out of squirrel parts that get stuck in a bug zapper, and he rakes in hundreds of dollars a month. You can't tell me that IQ tests have any real-world value.
 
2012-12-22 10:54:06 PM

common sense is an oxymoron: Old news.

The Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale has been using multiple subscores since 1997:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 650x452]

My score? "Unable to assign" due to the extreme range of subscores.


My main problem with tests of this nature is that the left side of the chart is heavily dependent on what you've been taught. Nevermind if you've got a great memory and great comprehension of those words you know, if you were not taught those specific terms you will do poorly on that side of the scale.

Standardized testing doesn't necessarily help, because some things change with time or contradict what's taught for practical value(IE food groupings, as a concept, have changed radically over the last 20 years, some nuts count as a "meat" now, due to protein value), or semantics sully a question, or some questions are purposefully misleading, or all out wrong, or vague to the point of uselessness.

Most of us know of a certain poster of a famous test, the Wason Selection Task, here on fark, but instead of asking the relevant question, he simply states "Which do you flip?" Why am I flipping cards at all? I prefer slot machines..

Questioning in some lines such as verbal comprehension, you've got to be not only knowledgeable of all of the content, but in the right frame of mind, and there is simply not enough data to put you where you need to be, or so much that a distinction is impossible.

Donkey is to Elephant as Lion is to ____________

Rhino?
Wolf?
Hippo?
Mouse?

If it's a politics reference, Wolf would probably be accurate as an opposite, or maybe mouse.... What if it's hairy is to grey hide, Rhino or Hippo?

I've seen entirely too many questions framed in just such a way, and lost any faith in the current systems as a measurement for intelligence in that area. It's got less measurable worth than an ink blot test.

Maybe that's what happens when you're more intelligent than the guy writing the questions.
 
2012-12-22 11:11:06 PM

omeganuepsilon:

Maybe that's what happens when you're more intelligent than the guy writing the questions.


Maybe. But it's just as likely that you're actually not more intelligent than the guy writing the questions, and you just don't know the answer
 
2012-12-22 11:28:46 PM

Tourney3p0: omeganuepsilon:

Maybe that's what happens when you're more intelligent than the guy writing the questions.

Maybe. But it's just as likely that you're actually not more intelligent than the guy writing the questions, and you just don't know the answer


You're sooooooooooooo clever.
trolololol
 
2012-12-23 12:26:09 AM

omeganuepsilon: common sense is an oxymoron: Old news.

The Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale has been using multiple subscores since 1997:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 650x452]

My score? "Unable to assign" due to the extreme range of subscores.

My main problem with tests of this nature is that the left side of the chart is heavily dependent on what you've been taught. Nevermind if you've got a great memory and great comprehension of those words you know, if you were not taught those specific terms you will do poorly on that side of the scale.



True. Hence the development of the "performance IQ," which is less dependent on education and/or exposure to specific words in specific contexts. There are additional tests available for aspects of brain function which are not covered by the WAIS (for example, face recognition).

It's easy to take an online "IQ test," but not many people are willing to spend several hours (and several hundred dollars) to find out that winning at Trivial Pursuit doesn't indicate across-the-board genius-level function, and this can be problematic. If I hadn't had to go through voc rehab due to progressive hearing loss, I wouldn't have been tested myself despite my strong suspicion that my behavior patterns matched up all too well with the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's/ASD. The IQ tests I took in school measured verbal IQ only and definitely gave a skewed impression. Unfortunately, there are quite a few people who seem to think that deviations from the neurotypical don't exist without some Official Seal of Approval, or at the very least that self-diagnosis = attention-whoring unless proven otherwise. Hell, even some so-called professionals have problems dealing with it. I had one individual tell me that, since I wasn't diagnosed before age 18, I couldn't have ASD, but that any prospective employer would have to deal with rigid thought processes, poor social skills, problems with executive function, and most of the other diagnostic criteria. WTF?


Standardized testing doesn't necessarily help, because some things change with time or contradict what's taught for practical value(IE food groupings, as a concept, have changed radically over the last 20 years, some nuts count as a "meat" now, due to protein value), or semantics sully a question, or some questions are purposefully misleading, or all out wrong, or vague to the point of uselessness.


Also true, and also compensated for, at least in part, by including the performance tests as well as the verbal tests. It might be helpful if all such tests adjusted their "normal" scores over time; but, given the state of our educational system, it might also cause more difficulties that it solves.


Questioning in some lines such as verbal comprehension, you've got to be not only knowledgeable of all of the content, but in the right frame of mind, and there is simply not enough data to put you where you need to be, or so much that a distinction is impossible.

Donkey is to Elephant as Lion is to ____________

Rhino?
Wolf?
Hippo?
Mouse?

If it's a politics reference, Wolf would probably be accurate as an opposite, or maybe mouse.... What if it's hairy is to grey hide, Rhino or Hippo?

I've seen entirely too many questions framed in just such a way, and lost any faith in the current systems as a measurement for intelligence in that area. It's got less measurable worth than an ink blot test.

Maybe that's what happens when you're more intelligent than the guy writing the questions.



F*cking THIS. These are worse than the Trivial-Pursuit-type questions. If you see a legitimate analogy that the test designer didn't, too bad for you.
/tl;dr: brains are too complex to measure using simple tools (which may themselves have been designed by simple tools)
 
2012-12-23 01:24:39 AM
You know how you know you're smart?
when you can figure things out better than other smart people.

You don't need an official to tell you.

/excuse me while I find my other sock...
 
2012-12-23 02:54:01 AM

common sense is an oxymoron: F*cking THIS. These are worse than the Trivial-Pursuit-type questions. If you see a legitimate analogy that the test designer didn't, too bad for you.


Only one of the assessments I use have utilized any analogy items, but this is strictly in the verbal domain, is a singular task, and the instrument has been built to basically ignore frequent wrong answers while providing a range of possible responses and identifying less frequent but higher level categorization. Some of my instruments have no language component whatsoever, and others allow me to grant answers which are not provided by the designers but share similar criteria (this, however, requires me to recognize those criteria in the answer or probe for rationale which is rather common).
 
2012-12-23 03:04:57 AM

mjbok: EngineerAU: It depends on the person. I joined at the end of grad school because my resume was about a quarter of a sheet long even with increasing the font size to comical levels. So I joined for a year and added it to the activities section of my resume.

Most recruiters will tell you to leave Mensa off of your resume.


WHY THE FARK would ANYONE put mensa on their resume??
THAT is just begging me to make fun of how stupid they are.
So, Mensa? Couldnt get into any really IQ societies? HMMMMMM
Well, we only hire 4 sigmas. Do you think that you got what it takes??
 
2012-12-23 02:08:29 PM

Vangor: common sense is an oxymoron: F*cking THIS. These are worse than the Trivial-Pursuit-type questions. If you see a legitimate analogy that the test designer didn't, too bad for you.

Only one of the assessments I use have utilized any analogy items, but this is strictly in the verbal domain, is a singular task, and the instrument has been built to basically ignore frequent wrong answers while providing a range of possible responses and identifying less frequent but higher level categorization. Some of my instruments have no language component whatsoever, and others allow me to grant answers which are not provided by the designers but share similar criteria (this, however, requires me to recognize those criteria in the answer or probe for rationale which is rather common).



Analogies are just one part of any standardized test, including the SAT. The problem is that it's pretty much impossible to account for contextual subtleties or idiosyncratic insights in any test intended for mass distribution.

If a third party thinks your mental function needs to be evaluated (or if you have the time and money to satisfy your own curiosity), then you can be tested one-on-one with a fair degree of accuracy; otherwise, not so much. This applies to studies such as CT, MRI, or PET as well. I'm curious as hell and would love to get a full workup to see what's really going on in my head. I don't know whether it would make any difference as far as my actually getting through life is concerned, but maybe there's really some useful information to be found.
 
2012-12-23 03:35:54 PM
I was turned down by Mensa. Therefore, I agree with this.

They really want me to try again - CONSTANT emails about upcoming test dates... I'm guessing their marketing dept. knows that I donate to charitable organizations, looked at my upper-middle class ZIP code and want a cut.

/97th percentile.
//We are the 98 percent.
 
2012-12-23 07:15:34 PM

common sense is an oxymoron:
Analogies are just one part of any standardized test, including the SAT. The problem is that it's pretty much impossible to account for contextual subtleties or idiosyncratic insights in any test intended for mass distribution.


I was speaking purely about instruments for measuring intelligence developmentally (IQ) as opposed to standardized tests which are not norm-referenced and explicitly measure body of knowledge than delayed or accelerated cognitive development.
 
2012-12-24 09:35:40 AM
I don't see the point of taking the test to get into Mensa. As mentioned upthread, the only reason to be in Mensa is to brag about being in Mensa. And they say that it's designed for the top 2% of IQ. WTF? Seriously? About 98% of the population can count to potato.

And I've looked at the practice test for fun. Also as mentioned upthread, too many of the questions are written for shiat. I hope the real test isn't that way. And the practice test is ridiculously easy...but you have to be able to read the mind of the test-writer, and understand what is meant THROUGH his poor wording and phraseology.

So, I think I'll take the actual Mensa test about the same time that someone makes a bet with me about it. And given that I will probably never be around anyone who gives a shiat either way, that's probably never.
 
2012-12-24 09:43:56 AM

namatad: Couldnt get into any really IQ societies?


I guess when it comes to sentence structure, your 4-sigma really means 4-smegma. But hey, why bother with the inclusion of a subject, or some of the other necessary words, when you can put such a well-placed adverb in there?
 
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