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(Talking Points Memo)   The history of the AR-15, the gun used at Sandy Hook. Since the media doing this, I'm impressed we're not looking at a picture of the AK-47. I mean, they're both assault rifles and both have "A" in their name   (tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 667
    More: Interesting, Sandy Hook, assault rifles, Kalashnikov, Palm City, semi-automatic rifle, John Allen Muhammad, Cerberus Capital Management LP, assault weapons ban  
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13567 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Dec 2012 at 10:07 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-21 11:04:51 AM  

Dimensio: Evil Twin Skippy: Dimensio: Additional perspective is helpful:

2011 murder statistics, weapon used:

Rifle (any rifle, not just "assault weapons): 323
Knife or other cutting tool: 1,694
Unarmed attacks (hands, fists, feet, etc): 728

And handguns?

6,220


Sort of makes the point you were trying to make about knives and bare hands killing more people than guns smell like Bullshiat, doesn't it?
 
2012-12-21 11:05:05 AM  

Gosling: Dimensio: Of what relevance are penises -- of any size -- to the current discussion? For what reason did you introduce the subject of male genitalia?

'Consider Your Man Card Reissued'. That's why. Guns that exist to compensate for small penises.


Which firearms compensate for "small penises"? How, exactly, does any firearm compensate for a deficiency in genital size?
 
2012-12-21 11:05:10 AM  

Endive Wombat: remus: Endive Wombat: [i51.tinypic.com image 640x533]
I still shake my head that during the height of the coverage of Sandy Hook, Megyn Kelly at Fox reported that the shooter is suspected to have a 9mm handgun and a Glock.

Well, to be fair, her statement was accurate. He indeed had a 9mm Sig and a 10mm Glock. Since the Glock wasn't also a 9mm, nor was it a Sig Sauer, it does belong to a different set than "9mm handgun", and the Sig does not belong to the discrete set "Glock", thus her statement was factually correct.

Fair enough.  But she did not know that at the time of the broadcast.  More importantly, why does the caliber of the gun even matter?  You have got close to 30 people dead, 20 of them kids.  The caliber of the gun(s) used does not change anything.

The problem is when the media and politicians start using terminology that they do not fully understand...them being on TV = to most, an authority figure and or expert...so their ignorance is spread to the masses.

Hell, look at all the derp that is coming from the far left/ignorant on the issue of gun control.  I cannot wait to see what Carolyn MccArthy attempts to legislate against next.  Shes already going after The Shoulder Thing That Goes Up and Heat Seeking Bullets.


Hey, I TOTALLY agree with you. I was just pointing out the semantics and set theory of her statement.
 
2012-12-21 11:05:12 AM  

ronaprhys: Why 5? What's magic about that number? It's pretty easy to come up with uses for more than 5.

The fact is that limiting the number of firearms a person may own would do absolutely nothing to reduce homicide rates nor is it an enforceable law.


Why 5? Because you just have to pick a number and 5 sounds about right.
 
2012-12-21 11:05:23 AM  

Southern100: WinoRhino: Gosling: The fact that the Bushmaster AR-15 was legally purchased by the shooter's mom and that it was the gun used in the shooting isn't evidence enough for you?

Someone steals my car and hits a pedestrian. Ban the Honda Civic.

An average of 10,000 people (including thousands of children) are killed every year by drunk drivers. Ban alcohol.


By 2015 it's estimated that Cars will kill less people per year than guns. That's because we keep passing safety measures, and technology keeps increasing the safety of the product.
 
2012-12-21 11:05:35 AM  

FightDirector: 3) Magazine Capacity. Reloading takes under 2 seconds. This is not a solution. Moreover, what are you going to do about the millions of 30-round magazine that already exist? We're back to door-to-door searches on this one. Again, this is not a solution.


I think that this point does not get discussed enough.  My firearms instructor could unload 50+ rounds in extremely tight groupings, going through 3-4 large magazines - unloading the mag, slapping a new one in and recocking, faster than I could get one 17 round magazine unloaded matching his groupings.




Fine, make all mags 5 rounds or less, for those who are trained, this is not a problem.




As to the current stockpile in the US of all those millions of high capacity mags, the only way I see the Feds doing anything about it is having a no questions asked drop off at your local police station...and if you are caught using one in a crime, self defense or hunting, they will toss your ass in jail and fine the shiat out of you...oh and destroy your guns too

 
2012-12-21 11:06:18 AM  
Back soon. Gotta help dig the driveway out of the snow dump Wisconsin got last night.
 
2012-12-21 11:06:33 AM  

Gosling: Dimensio: Of what relevance are penises -- of any size -- to the current discussion? For what reason did you introduce the subject of male genitalia?

'Consider Your Man Card Reissued'. That's why. Guns that exist to compensate for small penises.


Seriously - that's about as lame as you can get. If you're going to use that in a debate, you're as useless as tits on a boarhog.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-21 11:07:15 AM  

FightDirector: thurstonxhowell: Dimensio: "Assault weapon" is a poor term with no established definition that is intentionally utilized to confuse civilian sporting rifles with military weapons.

"Civilian sporting rifle", when used to describe an AR-15, is one of the most ham-fisted attempts at political correctness I've ever seen.

How about this? Is this a legitimate civilian sporting rifle?

[i1.wp.com image 850x209]

That firearm is a Mini-14, a rifle that can accept a magazine that holds 5, 10, 20, or 30 rounds (or larger). It fires a bullet approximately .223 inches wide, at a velocity of about 2800 feet per second. It can fire one - and ONLY one - round each time you pull the trigger.


The scary man's firearm is an AR-15. It can accept a magazine that holds 5, 10, 20, or 30 rounds (or larger; Betamags can hold approx 100 rounds but have horrific jam rates). It fires a bullet approximately .223 inches wide, at a velocity of about 2800 feet per second. It can fire one - and ONLY one - round each time you pull the trigger. It is covered in black plastic, which makes it lighter and theoretically more impact-resistant. These facts are scary, yes? It looks like this:

[blogs.suntimes.com image 850x250]

They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN. They shoot the same bullet, from magazines of the same size, at the same velocity. But one looks dammed scary, while one looks a lot like a hunting rifle you see on the wall.

There is quite literally no way to word a gun ban - while being intellectually honest - that will make a difference (because you can get a gun that does the same thing - or more - in a different cosmetic package) or word one in such a way that will not become a *de facto* ban on ALL guns. And while the latter may be a desirable goal to some minds, there is simply no actual, practical way to make it happen, without setting the military loose on the civilian population in a house-to-house and turning our country into another Afghanistan-style military quagmire.


But you'll fight to the death and commit treason against your own country for fashion.

The idea that people just want gun control because the guns "look scary" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on Fark or anywhere. Mini-14s were covered under the assault weapon ban the same as the AR-15, which isn't surprising because the Mini-14 is a scaled down M-14 just as the AR-15 is a scaled down AR-10.

That's why AR-15s are legal in the UK in single shot straight pull form, but the Mini-14 above would be illegal. So much for the "looks scary" theory.

It's even funnier that you think you nuts could take on the police, much less the army. Most gun owners aren't crazy, and even if they were your little toys aren't going to do much against actual soldiers.

Even the idea that a bunch of deluded rednecks who think they are tough because they have a toy can compare to Afghan tribesmen who have been fighting their whole lives is comical.
 
2012-12-21 11:07:29 AM  

BokChoy:
It worked just fine in New Orleans ...


Of course it did. Most law abiding citizens do whatever the law requires them to do. How many CRIMINALS do you think turned in their firearms?
 
2012-12-21 11:07:31 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Dimensio: Evil Twin Skippy: Dimensio: Additional perspective is helpful:

2011 murder statistics, weapon used:

Rifle (any rifle, not just "assault weapons): 323
Knife or other cutting tool: 1,694
Unarmed attacks (hands, fists, feet, etc): 728

And handguns?

6,220

Sort of makes the point you were trying to make about knives and bare hands killing more people than guns smell like Bullshiat, doesn't it?


My comparison was specifically to rifles, due to recent calls for restricting civilian access to certain popular rifle models.
 
2012-12-21 11:07:49 AM  

Dimensio: Gosling: Dimensio: What limit would you recommend, and what demonstrable benefit would result?

Let's say five guns, total, per registered gun owner. I think that's a reasonable limit. So if you have three registered gun owners in the house, you can have 15 guns in the house.

It wouldn't do anything to the people who really do just want the one gun for hunting or protection. In fact, they can do both that way. Multiple types of game, even. But with a five-gun limit, you'd have to start thinking about what kind of gun you really need to have. The small-penis guns would probably drop off in sales as a result because people would (I hope to God) pick smaller, more pragmatic guns over AR-15's.

And that results in fewer guns floating around, and fewer that can be used in mass shootings, which will help result in fewer Newtowns, fewer Virginia Techs, fewer Auroras, fewer yada yada yada.

And maybe we can have some sort of buyback program for the pre-existing overage.

Of what relevance are penises -- of any size -- to the current discussion? For what reason did you introduce the subject of male genitalia?


Some people just really like to think about penises. NTTAWWT.
 
2012-12-21 11:07:52 AM  

Endive Wombat: FightDirector: 3) Magazine Capacity. Reloading takes under 2 seconds. This is not a solution. Moreover, what are you going to do about the millions of 30-round magazine that already exist? We're back to door-to-door searches on this one. Again, this is not a solution.

I think that this point does not get discussed enough.  My firearms instructor could unload 50+ rounds in extremely tight groupings, going through 3-4 large magazines - unloading the mag, slapping a new one in and recocking, faster than I could get one 17 round magazine unloaded matching his groupings.


Fine, make all mags 5 rounds or less, for those who are trained, this is not a problem.


As to the current stockpile in the US of all those millions of high capacity mags, the only way I see the Feds doing anything about it is having a no questions asked drop off at your local police station...and if you are caught using one in a crime, self defense or hunting, they will toss your ass in jail and fine the shiat out of you...oh and destroy your guns too


I like the cut of your jib, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, if you have one.
 
2012-12-21 11:07:56 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: As a fan of guns, I still can't understand why any civilian needs a 30 round clip.

We were at the range the other day with some friends, shooting some old .22 and a pistol. At the end of the range were two guys firing off an AR-15. (One of them was an instructor, methinks.) I have to admit, I gave it more than a good look. It was a nice firearm, and in the hands of an idiot he was making groupings that embarrassed we who were shooting Boy scout grade rifles with iron sights.

Still, in a range setting, that puppy was WAY out of place. Somebody buying that thing is not in the same league with recreational shooters, hunters, and the like. That gun is really only good for mowing down human beings at a lot of them. It doesn't have the stopping power for big game. It is overkill for small game. There are even rules for bird hunting that limit shotguns to a 3 round magazine. 30 rounds is military load out, and has no place outside of war.


The right to bear arms is provided to us by our founding fathers not to protect us from bad guys, or to hunt. It was to protect us from a tyrannical government, like the one they were up against.
 
2012-12-21 11:08:06 AM  

Endive Wombat: FightDirector: 3) Magazine Capacity. Reloading takes under 2 seconds. This is not a solution. Moreover, what are you going to do about the millions of 30-round magazine that already exist? We're back to door-to-door searches on this one. Again, this is not a solution.

I think that this point does not get discussed enough.  My firearms instructor could unload 50+ rounds in extremely tight groupings, going through 3-4 large magazines - unloading the mag, slapping a new one in and recocking, faster than I could get one 17 round magazine unloaded matching his groupings.


Fine, make all mags 5 rounds or less, for those who are trained, this is not a problem.


As to the current stockpile in the US of all those millions of high capacity mags, the only way I see the Feds doing anything about it is having a no questions asked drop off at your local police station...and if you are caught using one in a crime, self defense or hunting, they will toss your ass in jail and fine the shiat out of you...oh and destroy your guns too


How will owners be compensated for the loss of their property?
 
2012-12-21 11:08:14 AM  

Thunderpipes: hundreddollarman: Thunderpipes: Loader device?

We have gotten so bad people are too lazy to manually load a magazine?

You'd be surprised at how much ammo a person goes through for a defensive handgun class. Heck, even a practice trip at the range, I go through about 100-200 rounds. Magazines have pretty stiff springs in them, so you do have to use a little elbow grease to put cartridges in them, especially the last one or two. Repeat that times a couple hundred and you'll have a pretty sore thumb.

I consider it part of the fun. Shot about 300 rounds last time at the range, .308 and some .223 a buddy let me use.

Like Arnold says about working out and wusses who use straps. Man up and let your forearms get strong, you won't need help.


So, you are against women using guns? We wouldn't want them to actually be able to enjoy the range by loading their magazines? I know a few that literally couldn't load a stiff magazine without a loading device to assist.

What about older shooters with arthritis? I also know a few that can't load magazines without a load device. You don't want them enjoying the shooting sports either? Even though they can shoot amazing once they are loaded up?

Get off the "man up' baloney. Not all people are as strong as you and this isn't, I hope, survival of the fittest quite yet?
 
2012-12-21 11:08:15 AM  
lh3.ggpht.com
 
2012-12-21 11:08:25 AM  

Southern100: CygnusDarius: Fark it, I'll make my own guns.

[englishrussia.com image 520x390]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

/From link

Neat. :-)

But all you really need these days is a computer and a 3-D Printer. Presto - instant gun.


NO. NO. NO.

A 3d printer cant print in the tight tolerances needed to make a properly functioning gun. Also, the materials wont hold up to the stresses of firing a bullet.

But by all means keep believing everything you see on CSI and CNN.
 
2012-12-21 11:09:13 AM  

Southern100: Irregardless


fark you. Learn English.
 
2012-12-21 11:09:14 AM  

Gosling: ronaprhys: Why 5? What's magic about that number? It's pretty easy to come up with uses for more than 5.

The fact is that limiting the number of firearms a person may own would do absolutely nothing to reduce homicide rates nor is it an enforceable law.

Why 5? Because you just have to pick a number and 5 sounds about right.


Which is a wonderful statement from someone who doesn't know much of anything about firearms.

Another fun fact - you do not need to pick a number. In fact, setting a "limit" seems like it'd be infringing upon someone's rights, which is a Constitutional no-no. Now, within the framework of the Constitution, set about devising a method to reduce the homicide rate. Said method has to be practical and enforceable, so that it's likely to be obeyed. It also has to show a clear and measurable reduction in the homicide rate.

Go.
 
2012-12-21 11:09:53 AM  

OHDUDENESS: Don't the reports say that he only killed his mother with the .223? The other 26 people were shot by handguns, right?


Every report I have read on this said that he killed everybody in the school with close range shots from the Bushmaster. The only time I have heard anything different were people in threads or comment sections from articles, who made claims that reports said he used a handgun.
 
2012-12-21 11:10:56 AM  

vpb: The idea that people just want gun control because the guns "look scary" is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on Fark or anywhere. Mini-14s were covered under the assault weapon ban the same as the AR-15, which isn't surprising because the Mini-14 is a scaled down M-14 just as the AR-15 is a scaled down AR-10.


The now-expired federal "assault weapons ban" did not prohibit manufacture of the Ruger Mini-14. Manufacturing a Mini-14 with two or more of the "banned" features was prohibited, but the Mini-14 rifle model itself was not.

The "Colt AR-15" was identified by name in the previous federal "assault weapons ban".
 
2012-12-21 11:12:33 AM  

Gosling: Dimensio: What limit would you recommend, and what demonstrable benefit would result?

Let's say five guns, total, per registered gun owner. I think that's a reasonable limit.


Not a reasonable limit, because someone who enjoys varied shooting sports would run up against that limit quickly:

1. Open field deer rifle: Probably a scoped bolt action, you need accuracy.
2. Swamp/deep woods deer rifle: Probably open-sighted semi-auto or lever action carbine.
3. Varmint rifle: Probably similar to 1, but in a smaller caliber because the varmints are smaller.
4. Small game rifle: Probably a .22 LR for things like squirrels and rabbits.
5. Shotgun: Could be used for geese, ducks, turkeys.

But you've just covered the majority (but not all) hunting situations, and you've got nothing left for things like a CCW handgun, specialized target rifles, specialized shotgun event shotguns, or even "spares" to use when your main gun breaks and you don't have time to get it fixed before your big hunting trip.

I haven't even delved into competition guns like IPSC, biathlon (both modern and my personal favorite, primitive), trap and skeet, etc.

I like to point out to people that guns are like golf clubs: You wouldn't play golf with just a 9 iron in your bag, would you? Of course not, you'd have clubs for all sorts of situations, woods, irons, at least one putter, a sand wedge, etc. Guns are the same way: They are all optimized for different situations. You wouldn't try to hunt pronghorns out west with an SKS, just like you wouldn't hunt swamp deer with a bolt action with a 10-power scope on it. You wouldn't use a .22 LR to hunt Elk or Moose, and you wouldn't use a .338 to hunt squirrels.
 
2012-12-21 11:13:04 AM  

ongbok: OHDUDENESS: Don't the reports say that he only killed his mother with the .223? The other 26 people were shot by handguns, right?

Every report I have read on this said that he killed everybody in the school with close range shots from the Bushmaster. The only time I have heard anything different were people in threads or comment sections from articles, who made claims that reports said he used a handgun.


Initial news reports claimed the rifle to have been found in the car. Later reports contradicted that claim. Regardless, the rifle itself provided no tactical advantage given his actions; he could have accomplished the same criminal results using only any number of firearm types.
 
2012-12-21 11:14:17 AM  

Gosling: Dimensio: Are you saying that she would not have purchased a functionally equivalent firearm had "Bushmaster" brand rifles been prohibited?

She was a doomsday prepper. She would probably have bought ALL the guns if she had the chance, and all the other weapons up to and including Kung Lao's razor hat.

Personally, part of the legislation I'd push for would include a limit on how many guns a specific person can own. There's no reason I can see why someone needs to have dozens and dozens of guns in the house. And a lot of these shootings involve the shooter amassing half an arsenal.


You still can only shoot them one at a time (well, two if you are using pistols and don't plan on hitting anything)

This is stupid
 
2012-12-21 11:15:23 AM  

dittybopper: Gosling: Dimensio: What limit would you recommend, and what demonstrable benefit would result?

Let's say five guns, total, per registered gun owner. I think that's a reasonable limit.

Not a reasonable limit, because someone who enjoys varied shooting sports would run up against that limit quickly:

1. Open field deer rifle: Probably a scoped bolt action, you need accuracy.
2. Swamp/deep woods deer rifle: Probably open-sighted semi-auto or lever action carbine.
3. Varmint rifle: Probably similar to 1, but in a smaller caliber because the varmints are smaller.
4. Small game rifle: Probably a .22 LR for things like squirrels and rabbits.
5. Shotgun: Could be used for geese, ducks, turkeys.

But you've just covered the majority (but not all) hunting situations, and you've got nothing left for things like a CCW handgun, specialized target rifles, specialized shotgun event shotguns, or even "spares" to use when your main gun breaks and you don't have time to get it fixed before your big hunting trip.

I haven't even delved into competition guns like IPSC, biathlon (both modern and my personal favorite, primitive), trap and skeet, etc.

I like to point out to people that guns are like golf clubs: You wouldn't play golf with just a 9 iron in your bag, would you? Of course not, you'd have clubs for all sorts of situations, woods, irons, at least one putter, a sand wedge, etc. Guns are the same way: They are all optimized for different situations. You wouldn't try to hunt pronghorns out west with an SKS, just like you wouldn't hunt swamp deer with a bolt action with a 10-power scope on it. You wouldn't use a .22 LR to hunt Elk or Moose, and you wouldn't use a .338 to hunt squirrels.


You do realize that it's highly likely that Gosling will respond with nothing more than a "well, then you need to pick", don't you. I applaud trying to educate folks who want to be educated on a subject (and rather enjoy being educated myself - you and others have given me lots of information I didn't have), but he isn't one of them.
 
2012-12-21 11:15:52 AM  

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: If you have a child with a mental illness, put your guns

and knives and hammers and most other heavy blunt or sharp objects in one of these, and keep the combination to yourself for as long as you can hold out.
[padens.com image 612x600]


Where do you stop putting things under lock and key?  Do you stop at hand guns or the living room lamps? legitimate question.
 
2012-12-21 11:15:54 AM  

FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.


ok then we'll ban them both. The day of you gun loving jackasses running shiat is over.
 
2012-12-21 11:16:23 AM  

Dimensio: Endive Wombat: FightDirector: 3) Magazine Capacity. Reloading takes under 2 seconds. This is not a solution. Moreover, what are you going to do about the millions of 30-round magazine that already exist? We're back to door-to-door searches on this one. Again, this is not a solution.

I think that this point does not get discussed enough.  My firearms instructor could unload 50+ rounds in extremely tight groupings, going through 3-4 large magazines - unloading the mag, slapping a new one in and recocking, faster than I could get one 17 round magazine unloaded matching his groupings.


Fine, make all mags 5 rounds or less, for those who are trained, this is not a problem.


As to the current stockpile in the US of all those millions of high capacity mags, the only way I see the Feds doing anything about it is having a no questions asked drop off at your local police station...and if you are caught using one in a crime, self defense or hunting, they will toss your ass in jail and fine the shiat out of you...oh and destroy your guns too

How will owners be compensated for the loss of their property?


Because it is now illegal, so fark you, that's why!

This just simply will not happen.  They can ban the manufacture of high capacity mags like they did before, but it will be just as ineffective.  With the previous ban, retailers and those with a bit extra cash simply bought up what they could and continued to sell them during the ban.
 
2012-12-21 11:17:15 AM  

Southern100: BokChoy:
It worked just fine in New Orleans ...

Of course it did. Most law abiding citizens do whatever the law requires them to do. How many CRIMINALS do you think turned in their firearms?


Yes, but criminals at least have a sense of perspective. They know if they just mow down people willy nilly, their ass is going to be on a wanted poster, assuming they don't go down in a hail of bullets in a police shootout.

What we need are laws to handle the cases where a seemingly "normal" person flips on their homicide bit. And it's not going to stop every homicidal maniac. But it would at least slow them down. Most of these mass shooting are people who have gone over the edge, and use readily available means that their disposal to create mass casualties.

Making guns and buckets of ammo a little harder to get than cough medicine could potentially save some lives. Nutters, when they have to explain what they want out loud, forget that they are nutters.

Just try ordering a few tons of fertilizer. Odds are, you'll get some scrutiny, if not a visit from the local constabulary to sort out what you want to use it for. It should be the same for buying pallets of ammunition.
 
2012-12-21 11:17:24 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Dimensio: Evil Twin Skippy: Dimensio: Additional perspective is helpful:

2011 murder statistics, weapon used:

Rifle (any rifle, not just "assault weapons): 323
Knife or other cutting tool: 1,694
Unarmed attacks (hands, fists, feet, etc): 728

And handguns?

6,220

Sort of makes the point you were trying to make about knives and bare hands killing more people than guns smell like Bullshiat, doesn't it?


Depends on how you analyze those numbers.
Handguns are popular among drug dealers and gang members because they are easily concealed, and drug related murders are a chunk of those six thousand. Thy also represent a user base that WILL NOT heed any politicians call for disarmament or magazine bans.

These kinds of dangerous people drive law abiding citizens to buy guns (60% of the sales are for self defense).
Self defense sometimes calls for a higher capacity, depending on your views about the subject.
Most shootings end in less than five shots, but saying you'll only need five is gambling that the incident you face stays inside the curve.
It's like saying you only need 72 hours worth of supplies because most disasters are shorter than three days of inconvenience.
Some people want more.

The point is that when politicians ask for magazine bans, they aren't talking to the crazies or the violent.
They are only talking to you.

That being the case, if you don't want a gun with more than five or ten rounds then limit yourself to that.
It's about as effective as any AWB has been.
 
2012-12-21 11:17:30 AM  

Red_Fox: FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.

ok then we'll ban them both. The day of you gun loving jackasses running shiat is over.


Your proposal is unreasonable and irrational.
 
2012-12-21 11:18:23 AM  

Endive Wombat: Dimensio: Endive Wombat: FightDirector: 3) Magazine Capacity. Reloading takes under 2 seconds. This is not a solution. Moreover, what are you going to do about the millions of 30-round magazine that already exist? We're back to door-to-door searches on this one. Again, this is not a solution.

I think that this point does not get discussed enough.  My firearms instructor could unload 50+ rounds in extremely tight groupings, going through 3-4 large magazines - unloading the mag, slapping a new one in and recocking, faster than I could get one 17 round magazine unloaded matching his groupings.


Fine, make all mags 5 rounds or less, for those who are trained, this is not a problem.


As to the current stockpile in the US of all those millions of high capacity mags, the only way I see the Feds doing anything about it is having a no questions asked drop off at your local police station...and if you are caught using one in a crime, self defense or hunting, they will toss your ass in jail and fine the shiat out of you...oh and destroy your guns too

How will owners be compensated for the loss of their property?

Because it is now illegal, so fark you, that's why!

This just simply will not happen.  They can ban the manufacture of high capacity mags like they did before, but it will be just as ineffective.  With the previous ban, retailers and those with a bit extra cash simply bought up what they could and continued to sell them during the ban.


You did not address my question: how will owners be compensated for the loss of their property.
 
2012-12-21 11:18:25 AM  

dittybopper: I like to point out to people that guns are like golf clubs: You wouldn't play golf with just a 9 iron in your bag, would you? Of course not, you'd have clubs for all sorts of situations, woods, irons, at least one putter, a sand wedge, etc. Guns are the same way: They are all optimized for different situations. You wouldn't try to hunt pronghorns out west with an SKS, just like you wouldn't hunt swamp deer with a bolt action with a 10-power scope on it. You wouldn't use a .22 LR to hunt Elk or Moose, and you wouldn't use a .338 to hunt squirrels.


You can kill someone with a golf club too. Maybe we should look into banning them
 
2012-12-21 11:18:26 AM  

Red_Fox: FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.

ok then we'll ban them both. The day of you gun loving jackasses running shiat is over.


Tough talk from a Canadian. Keep flapping the top of your head, buddy.

/ok, feel better
//any other rational people want to discuss the issue?
 
2012-12-21 11:18:49 AM  

FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.


Ummm...excuse me, one has the shoulder thing that goes up and the other does not!!!
 
2012-12-21 11:18:54 AM  

Duelist: How do we stop that 1 person from thinking that killing others is a good idea?


This is really the heart of the matter. Modern society is extremely farked up. And I don't mean just getting mental health care to those who are already in trouble. I mean changing society so that we're not so divided, alienated and dehumanized.

It's a hell of a world that makes people want to kill other people for no reason at all.
 
2012-12-21 11:19:17 AM  
Man, the NRA's press conference is going to make it worse on themselves.
 
2012-12-21 11:20:23 AM  

Endive Wombat: remus: Endive Wombat: [i51.tinypic.com image 640x533]
I still shake my head that during the height of the coverage of Sandy Hook, Megyn Kelly at Fox reported that the shooter is suspected to have a 9mm handgun and a Glock.

Well, to be fair, her statement was accurate. He indeed had a 9mm Sig and a 10mm Glock. Since the Glock wasn't also a 9mm, nor was it a Sig Sauer, it does belong to a different set than "9mm handgun", and the Sig does not belong to the discrete set "Glock", thus her statement was factually correct.

Fair enough.  But she did not know that at the time of the broadcast.  More importantly, why does the caliber of the gun even matter?  You have got close to 30 people dead, 20 of them kids.  The caliber of the gun(s) used does not change anything.

The problem is when the media and politicians start using terminology that they do not fully understand...them being on TV = to most, an authority figure and or expert...so their ignorance is spread to the masses.

Hell, look at all the derp that is coming from the far left/ignorant on the issue of gun control.  I cannot wait to see what Carolyn MccArthy attempts to legislate against next.  Shes already going after The Shoulder Thing That Goes Up and Heat Seeking Bullets.


Because people want details? The same reason they specify "late model Buick", "2001 Chrysler minivan", etc, etc when describing what the old man was driving when he drove into the Farmers Market, when they could have just said "vehicle".
 
2012-12-21 11:20:45 AM  

Red_Fox: FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.

ok then we'll ban them both. The day of you gun loving jackasses running shiat is over.


How many guns protect the Messiah daily?

Weird how they are good enough for him, but us peasants cannot own them.
 
2012-12-21 11:21:02 AM  

MrBallou: Duelist: How do we stop that 1 person from thinking that killing others is a good idea?

This is really the heart of the matter. Modern society is extremely farked up. And I don't mean just getting mental health care to those who are already in trouble. I mean changing society so that we're not so divided, alienated and dehumanized.

It's a hell of a world that makes people want to kill other people for no reason at all.


Murder rates in "modern society" are substantially lower than they were in previous eras.
 
2012-12-21 11:21:07 AM  

Sultan Of Herf: A 3d printer cant print in the tight tolerances needed to make a properly functioning gun. Also, the materials wont hold up to the stresses of firing a bullet.

But by all means keep believing everything you see on CSI and CNN.



Gotta admit, when I heard of a 3D printer printin' out something with "tight tolerances", firearms weren't the first thing to come to mind.
 
2012-12-21 11:22:40 AM  

kombat_unit: r1niceboy: I like me some firepower (learned to shoot using the FN FAL), but I'm at a loss to explain how someone could justify owning an AR-15. They exist to put a lot of firepower in a lot of targets very quickly while only just giving a nod to existing gun laws. I would add that had Adam Lanza been carrying a full auto assault rifle, he'd have sprayed, wounding more, but killing less kids. The AR-15 makes you pick your shots.

Read United States v. Miller 1939 and you will then be able to explain why we should own AR-15s.


There's the right to own guns, but then there's the reason for owning them. Every time someone tries to justify their owning one, I feel like I'm driving through Derpville and can't get gas because the town's armed to make sure Duane doesn't leave his sister at the altar.
 
2012-12-21 11:23:03 AM  

dittybopper: Gosling: Dimensio: What limit would you recommend, and what demonstrable benefit would result?

Let's say five guns, total, per registered gun owner. I think that's a reasonable limit.

Not a reasonable limit, because someone who enjoys varied shooting sports would run up against that limit quickly:

1. Open field deer rifle: Probably a scoped bolt action, you need accuracy.
2. Swamp/deep woods deer rifle: Probably open-sighted semi-auto or lever action carbine.
3. Varmint rifle: Probably similar to 1, but in a smaller caliber because the varmints are smaller.
4. Small game rifle: Probably a .22 LR for things like squirrels and rabbits.
5. Shotgun: Could be used for geese, ducks, turkeys.

But you've just covered the majority (but not all) hunting situations, and you've got nothing left for things like a CCW handgun, specialized target rifles, specialized shotgun event shotguns, or even "spares" to use when your main gun breaks and you don't have time to get it fixed before your big hunting trip.

I haven't even delved into competition guns like IPSC, biathlon (both modern and my personal favorite, primitive), trap and skeet, etc.

I like to point out to people that guns are like golf clubs: You wouldn't play golf with just a 9 iron in your bag, would you? Of course not, you'd have clubs for all sorts of situations, woods, irons, at least one putter, a sand wedge, etc. Guns are the same way: They are all optimized for different situations. You wouldn't try to hunt pronghorns out west with an SKS, just like you wouldn't hunt swamp deer with a bolt action with a 10-power scope on it. You wouldn't use a .22 LR to hunt Elk or Moose, and you wouldn't use a .338 to hunt squirrels.


This is why I would focus on the Ammo, not the gun. People also collect guns for their intrinsic beauty. You have the issue of museums and private collections, which can have hundred or thousands. I don't think limiting GUN ownership is a good idea, or even a desirable one.

I just want a common sense rule in place to limit the damage that one person can do when they go off the deep end. And I think we can all agree, there are plenty of ways to do that and not infringe on the other uses of a gun in any way.
 
2012-12-21 11:24:36 AM  

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: If you have a child with a mental illness, put your guns in one of these, and keep the combination to yourself.
[padens.com image 612x600]


Thanks for this. Proper safety would have at the very least kept the household weapons out of that kids hands. I'm not saying that he could not have found them somewhere else, but at least he would have been delayed more which could have led to a change of hear/getting caught. I'm a firm believer that if you can't securely lock your weapons in a safe then you should not have them in the first place. Honestly, If I had a child with mental illness I would seriously consider selling off my collection. Thank god I'm not currently in that situation.
 
2012-12-21 11:25:02 AM  

Green Scorpio: dittybopper: I like to point out to people that guns are like golf clubs: You wouldn't play golf with just a 9 iron in your bag, would you? Of course not, you'd have clubs for all sorts of situations, woods, irons, at least one putter, a sand wedge, etc. Guns are the same way: They are all optimized for different situations. You wouldn't try to hunt pronghorns out west with an SKS, just like you wouldn't hunt swamp deer with a bolt action with a 10-power scope on it. You wouldn't use a .22 LR to hunt Elk or Moose, and you wouldn't use a .338 to hunt squirrels.

You can kill someone with a golf club too. Maybe we should look into banning them


If you saw me attempt to play golf, you would.
 
2012-12-21 11:26:09 AM  

WTF Indeed: TheVeryDeadIanMartin: If you have a child with a mental illness, put your guns in one of these, and keep the combination to yourself.
[padens.com image 612x600]

How dare you encourage that! Personal responsibility has zero place gun ownership, so says my NRA mailer.


Encouraging it is fine. Hell, I have a gun safe, albeit not as fancy as that one.

Requiring it is unconstitutional: Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.
 
2012-12-21 11:26:56 AM  

Sultan Of Herf: Southern100: CygnusDarius: Fark it, I'll make my own guns.

[englishrussia.com image 520x390]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

[englishrussia.com image 800x600]

/From link

Neat. :-)

But all you really need these days is a computer and a 3-D Printer. Presto - instant gun.

NO. NO. NO.

A 3d printer cant print in the tight tolerances needed to make a properly functioning gun. Also, the materials wont hold up to the stresses of firing a bullet.

But by all means keep believing everything you see on CSI and CNN.


Please be informed.

http://defensedistributed.com/
 
2012-12-21 11:27:02 AM  

Endive Wombat: FightDirector: They are, functionally, the SAME FARKING GUN.

Ummm...excuse me, one has the shoulder thing that goes up and the other does not!!!


someone posted this the other day. it's worth the watch.
 
2012-12-21 11:27:08 AM  
Of all the irraitating thing gunnuts do, none is more annoying or ridiculous than thier constant butt-hurt about Gun nomeclature and identification.  They use it like a secret handshake to indentify other obsesssives like themselves and marginalize the opinions of everyone else  "Ah-ha the article said the gun was an Ar-15  but CLEARLY it was an Ar-15 L limited edition with the collapsible stock and the chome sights-stupid Lib reporter who doesn;t know anything about guns.."

SO. THE FARK. WHAT?

I can't identify a Holley carburetor from a stock one, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on speed limits, particularly when someone just killed a bunch of people drag-racing in a souped up car.

Just like evangelical Christians who have somehow convinced themselves they are a persecuted minority in a country that self-indentifies as 90% Christian; you folks have convinced yourselves that you are a special, enlightened elite from an obscure subculture facing ignorant masses who know nothing about guns.  The truth is that there are 270 MILLION firearms in private hands or 9 for every ten people in the US.  Add in those who have handled or fired one without owning one, and those who have a military or police issued on and guess what?  90+% of the population knows about guns, have fired a gun in thier lifetime, are more than familiar with their basic operation.   They just don't CARE about them the way you do.

You remind me nohing so much as Star-wars geeks who work themselves into paroxsyms of nerd-rage because a movie reviewer never checked the Wiki to find out that the 4th storm trooper to the left in scene 116 has actually been assigned a name and rich backstory by the fan-fic community,

and BTW yes, there is technically a difference btween a "clip" and a "magazine" but they've become interchangeable words in the vernacular and so either is correct when talking about the thing that goes into the gun and holds bullets, and your pedantic corrections serve no purpose but to call you out as a douchebag
 
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