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(Buzzfeed)   The Chechen Army has some impressive guns. These...are not those guns   (buzzfeed.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Chechen, guerrilla fighter, Second Chechen War  
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21727 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 9:07 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-12-21 01:45:24 AM  
3 votes:

doglover: The reciever failed after 6 shots IIRC. Plus you still need all the manufactured steel parts anyway. Myth Busted.


Funny, you look at it and say myth busted. I look at it and say, successful proof of concept. If we're talking mythbusters, they'd call it plausible. 6 shots is more than enough to kill somebody and loot a better gun.

It all depends on what you think the intent of the test was. Is the intent to produce a functional, dimensionally identical replacement AR lower receiver, or to do a proof of concept that you can make a working firearm with 3d printed components. If the intent is the former, it's a failure, but an educational one. If it's a proof of concept, it's a success.

It's worth further experimentation. If I were looking to design a practical 3d printable firearm, I'd base it off of something like a derringer or a pepperbox rather than an AR. Can you say cheap, disposable, anonymous insurgency weapon? Who cares if it breaks after 5 (or even 1) shot. Melt it down and print a new one.

Plus you aren't even considering the possibility of using the 3d printed part as a master for something like investment casting. Print a master, make a mold of it, and then cast the final part in metal. Now that's something with a lot of promise.

If you wanted to make a printable plastic AR receiver, you'd definitely have to make it a lot beefier to compensate for the fact that it's polymer vs alloy. Mechanically/functionally, it's the inside dimensions that matter. Outside dimensions are irrelevant unless you're looking for a cosmetically-identical part versus a functionally-identical part. How and where did the first attempt fail? Beef up that part of the receiver and do over. Maybe version 2.0 will get off 10 shots before it fails. Gather more data, refine your design.

Science is an iterative process. A failed experiment/test isn't bad if you learn from it and gather useful data. The fact that he was as successful as he was on his very first attempt is frankly amazing. Only an idiot says "oh, my first attempt wasn't a total success, so I'll just give up now."
2012-12-20 09:36:37 PM  
2 votes:

UsikFark: some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate

If you don't like it, kill someone with a better gun.


hellinahandbasket.net

So, don't bother killing someone with this gun.
2012-12-21 07:35:54 AM  
1 vote:

thorthor: MemeSlave: Once "gun control" hits the US, we'll be building these in our garages too.

Yeah that farking Negro is gonna take our guns! Herp dederp de derp.


See, what makes that funny is that for the last 300 years, it's been the White man taking the guns from the Black man. And he still keeps trying to do it: The areas with the highest percentages of minorities tend to have the strictest gun laws. That's why "I know what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne" was racial code saying "Relax Whitey, we're only going to take the guns away from brown people".
2012-12-21 03:48:07 AM  
1 vote:

doglover: You even seen a lone soldier in war time? I sure as heck haven't


You're thinking about a lone gunman type scenario.

Think bigger. Think insurgency squad ambushing a small group of off duty soldiers while they're eating.

Think even bigger. How about an insurgency cell handing out thousands of dirt-cheap, disposable, untracable single shot pistols to an angry mob of protesters? Now that's something that would make a riot squad piss in their jackboots.
2012-12-21 03:23:05 AM  
1 vote:

doglover: As for the idea a limited number of shots is all you need: this one failed at 6. How do we know the next one won't fail at 1?

Testing.

Many's the gun that's taken out its wielder with a catastrophic failure.

Definitely. We're not talking recreational firearms, we're talking about field expedient solutions for people in an insurgency type situation fighting against an oppressive regime. EG like in Syria right now. It's not something to use every day. It's something to use when your only two options are to fight or to die.

First rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun. A printed expedient weapon (PEW) satisfies that basic requirement.

And what if you miss the first shot?

If you miss, you're farked. Don't miss. Viva la resistance.

Such are the fortunes of war.

And who are we looting these guns from, anyway? You even seen a lone soldier in war time? I sure as heck haven't. Even assuming a dearth of enemy combatants in the continental US for reasons unknown and your last great hope is your 3D printer, you're still not gonna enjoy having it fail after an unknown, single digit number of shots.

The US isn't the primary place something like this would be useful, although it is useful from a theoretical perspective as an object lesson in the futility of banning guns. In the US it's more of a political statement than a practical solution. It's also an interesting intellectual exercise (IE what engineers do for fun). However, I could see it being practical in a more repressive country.

I don't see it as being the last great hope with your 3D printer, it's more about giving a resistance cell in someplace like Syria the ability to covertly acquire a bootstrap arsenal. Send them the parts to build a Makerbot (or similar), disguised as something else (EG a videogame or toy) which they then assemble. They might even be able to acquire it openly. Point is that a 3D printer is innocuous enough that it's going to be a lot easier to get into a repressive country than weapons or machine tools, not to mention being much cheaper.

As to how a resistance cell uses them, well... that's up to them. The French and Belgian resistance movements from WWII offer some useful object lessons, and Che Guevara literally wrote the book on modern revolutionary warfare. A PEW would be more far more useful as an assassination tool than a weapon for a stand-up firefight.

2012-12-21 02:53:25 AM  
1 vote:
I'm the kind of guy that doesn't particularly like guns and have no desire to own my own firearms.

But I'd be seventeen kinds of happy being a guy that makes 'em.

/ I don't even understand
2012-12-21 02:42:16 AM  
1 vote:
Make it Orky.

And yet they still defeated the Russian army in set-piece battles.
2012-12-21 01:11:44 AM  
1 vote:

thisisarepeat: This. I've also seen machine shops built to produce weapons where every mill, lathe or drill press however rudimentary, were all run from a stationary washing machine motor with a bunch of home made belts. People are capable of amazing things in the face of adversity, unfortunately most are really just completely useless.


I'm curious how the Khyber gunsmiths produce their barrels (or where they source them from). Of all the components, a rifle barrel is by far the hardest to produce. Fascinating article about making rifle barrels here.
2012-12-20 11:34:57 PM  
1 vote:

thisisarepeat: This. I've also seen machine shops built to produce weapons where every mill, lathe or drill press however rudimentary, were all run from a stationary washing machine motor with a bunch of home made belts.


On a somewhat tangental note, When I was a kid I had the opportunity to visit a working wood shop dating back to the 1820s where all the tools were driven off of a water wheel. There was a turning axle running the length of the shop on the ceiling, and all the tools were driven by leather belts coming off of it. Really amazing. I'll have to ask my dad where it was and see if it's still around.
2012-12-20 11:12:26 PM  
1 vote:
1. Take 1 length schedule 80 3/4" pipe 12" long;

2. Thread one end and apply cap;

3. Drill cap in center;

4. Clip 6d nail about 1/4" long;

5. Insert 1 12 ga. shotgun shell, preferably #00 buck;

6. Bring device into close proximity with police officer or enemy soldier;

7. Detonate shell with a sharp blow from a rock or hard object;

8. Take all the guns and ammo you need from dead enemy.

If it ever comes down to war, I can get all the guns I want.
2012-12-20 11:04:10 PM  
1 vote:

clyph: some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate

They only have to be accurate and reliable enough to ambush one enemy and take his weapons.

I love photos like this. It shows the sheer absurdity of attempts to ban guns. If you can't buy one, you can make one that's good enough to get you something better.

An open bolt, full auto SMG is one of the mechanically simplest firearms around. It's actually MORE difficult to make it NOT be full auto. Going with a pistol caliber round means that you can use a mass-delayed blowback action, which is dirt simple compared to a gas operated locking bolt action which you'd need for a rifle caliber cartridge.


This. I've also seen machine shops built to produce weapons where every mill, lathe or drill press however rudimentary, were all run from a stationary washing machine motor with a bunch of home made belts. People are capable of amazing things in the face of adversity, unfortunately most are really just completely useless.
2012-12-20 10:55:01 PM  
1 vote:
ATTENTION ALL FARKERS: Get on the Innertubes and locate a book called "U.S. Army Training Manual TM-210: Improvised Weapons". Download a copy and save it, then spam a copy to all your friends.

Just take an old fart's word, it will be worth your time.

\\\ And at the rate things are going, you are likely to need it sooner than you might want.
2012-12-20 10:50:31 PM  
1 vote:
I wonder how many bodies are on all those. I don't know the first thing about Chechen military or guerrilla prowess but something tells me each owner/maker of those guns was plenty lethal with it.
2012-12-20 10:45:59 PM  
1 vote:
Holy crap I want these people working on a steampunk costume for me for my next Renfaire. But I'd pass on firing any of those, thanks
2012-12-20 10:45:07 PM  
1 vote:

Insatiable Jesus: I like seeing displays of homemade weapons like this. It brings back sweet childhood memories. Of being taken, after our slap on the wrist in court, by the Norfolk VA detectives who worked on our case, to see our "mortar" proudly displayed in their collection of zip guns and shanks. Iron pipe, cap, hole, M-80, D-sized battery.


I never had M-80s. I made a pnuematic potato gun to launch marbles. Great days, they were, great days.
2012-12-20 10:40:08 PM  
1 vote:

xen0blue: considering they made them from what they had laying around, probably without the proper tools to even make them, i'd consider it pretty damn good.

you've gotta think of everything in context.


I was gonna say this.
I saw some guy on youtube using basic shop equipment to turn out professional looking Mac 10's.
that the Chechens couldn't do as well suggests they must have no industrial capability left. Not even presses and lathes.

/which might explain the fighting...
2012-12-20 10:34:58 PM  
1 vote:
considering they made them from what they had laying around, probably without the proper tools to even make them, i'd consider it pretty damn good.

you've gotta think of everything in context.
2012-12-20 10:22:48 PM  
1 vote:
zedster

Vice.com interview with him

The Internet has an unlimited supply of weird.
2012-12-20 10:19:39 PM  
1 vote:

djh0101010: Do you know how I know you've never done the two tasks you're pretending are different?


3d printing is an additive process. CNC milling is a subtractive process.

There are a lot of analogies in the processes but there are a lot of differences as well, in my admittedly limited experience. Not an expert on either, but I've played around a little with both. I'm a CompE, not a ME. When it comes to hands-on building I'm much more experienced in a wood shop than a machine shop.
2012-12-20 10:10:55 PM  
1 vote:

doglover: Uh-huh. I'll just use my 3D printer to- oh wait it's a stupid expensive tool for the price of which I could actually set up some tools and make my own gunsmithing shop.


I'll agree that a good 3d printer is going to cost as much as a decent second-hand shop lathe. The difference is, with a 3d printer you just need to download a file and hit print. Using machine tools requires some skill and training.

Designing something to be 3-D printed is also a lot less complex than designing something for a CNC mill.
2012-12-20 10:06:28 PM  
1 vote:

Oznog: clyph: some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate

They only have to be accurate and reliable enough to ambush one enemy and take his weapons.

I love photos like this. It shows the sheer absurdity of attempts to ban guns. If you can't buy one, you can make one that's good enough to get you something better.

An open bolt, full auto SMG is one of the mechanically simplest firearms around. It's actually MORE difficult to make it NOT be full auto. Going with a pistol caliber round means that you can use a mass-delayed blowback action, which is dirt simple compared to a gas operated locking bolt action which you'd need for a rifle caliber cartridge.

[www.extremetech.com image 638x371]

Well you ain't going on a killing spree with any of theose. I'm not saying you couldn't kill someone, but it'd likely be only one person, most likely yourself.

The significant technology that got demonstrated recently was 3D printing a gun's lower receiver. Now the upper receiver and barrel were all mfg gun parts, but the trouble is, the law regards those as REPLACEMENT parts, not a firearm, and are largely uncontrolled.

The lower receiver is considered "the gun", even though it has the least stressed parts in it. But the stressed parts like the barrel wears out from the stress and they wanted people to be able to replace them without all the paperwork and registration of a new firearm. That logic has somewhat backfired as the receiver is relatively simple to make now, and getting an off-the-shelf replacement barrel and upper receiver makes a whole "new gun" at home.


Uh-huh. I'll just use my 3D printer to- oh wait it's a stupid expensive tool for the price of which I could actually set up some tools and make my own gunsmithing shop.
2012-12-20 10:05:11 PM  
1 vote:
On the one hand, i find these pictures cool and interesting.

On the other, I realize these were made for a guerrilla war that has been going on for years and cost the lvies of women and children.

And don't get me started on the whole terrorist thing over there...
2012-12-20 10:04:13 PM  
1 vote:

Oznog: I'm just puzzled why they don't design a gun which they have the technology to manufacture reliably.


They do, sort of. There are a lot of Khyber guns which are semi-original creations combining features from multiple commercial designs. You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to copy a working mechanism. Creating a new one from scratch is a lot more difficult.

The thing is that the Khyber Pass gunsmiths are artisans, not factory workers. Each weapon is a one-off creation of an individual craftsman or small team. It's a very pre-industrial approach to manufacturing.
2012-12-20 10:01:57 PM  
1 vote:

Oznog: UsikFark: some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate

If you don't like it, kill someone with a better gun.

[hellinahandbasket.net image 850x564]

So, don't bother killing someone with this gun.


You probably know this already, but killing someone to get a better gun is exactly what that gun was meant for.
2012-12-20 09:58:18 PM  
1 vote:
And yet they seem to giving Putin all sorts of mayhem with these crap-ass tools.
2012-12-20 09:56:41 PM  
1 vote:
Shovel guy didn't make all of that gun himself. He used real parts where he wanted to, steampunk'd the rest.
2012-12-20 09:55:13 PM  
1 vote:

clyph: some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate

They only have to be accurate and reliable enough to ambush one enemy and take his weapons.

I love photos like this. It shows the sheer absurdity of attempts to ban guns. If you can't buy one, you can make one that's good enough to get you something better.

An open bolt, full auto SMG is one of the mechanically simplest firearms around. It's actually MORE difficult to make it NOT be full auto. Going with a pistol caliber round means that you can use a mass-delayed blowback action, which is dirt simple compared to a gas operated locking bolt action which you'd need for a rifle caliber cartridge.


www.extremetech.com

Well you ain't going on a killing spree with any of theose. I'm not saying you couldn't kill someone, but it'd likely be only one person, most likely yourself.

The significant technology that got demonstrated recently was 3D printing a gun's lower receiver. Now the upper receiver and barrel were all mfg gun parts, but the trouble is, the law regards those as REPLACEMENT parts, not a firearm, and are largely uncontrolled.

The lower receiver is considered "the gun", even though it has the least stressed parts in it. But the stressed parts like the barrel wears out from the stress and they wanted people to be able to replace them without all the paperwork and registration of a new firearm. That logic has somewhat backfired as the receiver is relatively simple to make now, and getting an off-the-shelf replacement barrel and upper receiver makes a whole "new gun" at home.
2012-12-20 09:49:55 PM  
1 vote:
"The Chechen Army has some impressive guns. These...are not those guns"


And yet somehow I'm impressed.
2012-12-20 09:48:58 PM  
1 vote:

Oznog: MemeSlave: Once "gun control" hits the US, we'll be building these in our garages too.

What puzzled me is Khyber Pass guns. The weaponsmiths are fantastically good at producing copies of popular, manufactured guns, but with relatively crude tools.
They're remarkably close to the originals, but "not quite", and may be out-of-shape or have spelling errors in the markings.
Quality is unpredictable and explosion is possible, especially without underloaded ammunition.

I'm just puzzled why they don't design a gun which they have the technology to manufacture reliably.


Because the quality of steel you need to produce reliable firearms for modern ammunition is pretty high tech, and definitely beyond the capacity of village gunsmiths who are using whatever random scraps they can get for raw material. They don't make ammo; they buy it, and so they make guns that fit it.
2012-12-20 09:47:13 PM  
1 vote:

thorthor: Our teachers are smart enough to educate our kids maybe they could build their own weapons, hell lets let the kids help. The only solution that I can see is if EVERYONE is armed at all times, and can spray bullets willy nilly. That will stop all of this gun violence.... right?

/first time trolling, hope I'm doing it right?


3/10

Would be 2/10, but it's your first time.
2012-12-20 09:44:53 PM  
1 vote:

MemeSlave: Once "gun control" hits the US, we'll be building these in our garages too.


What puzzled me is Khyber Pass guns. The weaponsmiths are fantastically good at producing copies of popular, manufactured guns, but with relatively crude tools.
They're remarkably close to the originals, but "not quite", and may be out-of-shape or have spelling errors in the markings.
Quality is unpredictable and explosion is possible, especially without underloaded ammunition.

I'm just puzzled why they don't design a gun which they have the technology to manufacture reliably.
2012-12-20 09:44:30 PM  
1 vote:

some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate


They only have to be accurate and reliable enough to ambush one enemy and take his weapons.

I love photos like this. It shows the sheer absurdity of attempts to ban guns. If you can't buy one, you can make one that's good enough to get you something better.

An open bolt, full auto SMG is one of the mechanically simplest firearms around. It's actually MORE difficult to make it NOT be full auto. Going with a pistol caliber round means that you can use a mass-delayed blowback action, which is dirt simple compared to a gas operated locking bolt action which you'd need for a rifle caliber cartridge.
2012-12-20 09:38:15 PM  
1 vote:
s3-ec.buzzfed.coms3-ec.buzzfed.com

You're bordering on "Steampunk" there.
I don't think "Chechenpunk" will quite catch on, though.
2012-12-20 09:37:01 PM  
1 vote:
Once "gun control" hits the US, we'll be building these in our garages too.
2012-12-20 09:35:04 PM  
1 vote:

some_beer_drinker: some of those don't look very accurate


If you don't like it, kill someone with a better gun.
2012-12-20 09:27:16 PM  
1 vote:

zedster: I liked this on, man build AK out of Shovel


That was amazing, the coolest thing I've read all week.
2012-12-20 09:25:53 PM  
1 vote:
Those look like weapons I started out with in Borderlands.
2012-12-20 09:23:09 PM  
1 vote:
The WW2 Sten gun prototype was built from hardware parts in a kitchen. I've seen crude shotguns made from black iron pipe. Getting a gun is more difficult than making one, it seems.
2012-12-20 09:23:04 PM  
1 vote:
Building a gun is impressive to me.
2012-12-20 09:14:05 PM  
1 vote:
These are not they.
2012-12-20 09:13:12 PM  
1 vote:

zedster: I liked this one, man builds AK out of Shovel


I thoroughly enjoyed that, thank you.
2012-12-20 08:57:21 PM  
1 vote:
 
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