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(WOODTV Grand Rapids)   "Guns are not the problem...mental illness is the problem," says mom who keeps a gun because she lives in fear for her life from her mentally ill son   (woodtv.com) divider line 194
    More: Obvious, mental health professional, mom, guns  
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6474 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 7:52 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 09:06:19 PM

mgshamster: pxlboy: ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"

Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.

It's actually one of the things I like about Fark; that you can't go back and change what you said.


Good point. I suppose it is important to enshrine the most egregious examples of DERP on Fark for posterity. Unfortunately my posts have become a bit more incoherent since I recently started drinking whiskey. Yay whiskey!
 
I laughed too hard at this headline. We do need to start providing a safety net for families like these so they (or others) don't end up getting murdered by their own defective offspring. 
 
I know that loony-bins were closed decades ago for primarily economic reasons - and that there are horror-stories of people being committed against their will simply for being depressed or for being gay - but there are far too many mentally-ill homeless people who have nowhere to go and who simply can't care for themselves. That needs to change.
 
2012-12-20 09:07:39 PM

atomic-age: mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.

This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.


Yeah, it was more addressing why we have such an aversion to it here.  Lots of older generations fear mental health, and want nothing to do with it, including funding it.
 
2012-12-20 09:09:51 PM

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


He's 13, what are they supposed to do? There are no agencies for them to turn to and the public thinks they are crazy.

I'm all for letting all the non-violent drug offenders go free and having a place parents can turn too with crazy kids. Im also for then allowing them a drug detox program until they prove they aren't fit to live free.

Its obvious out nations approach to mental health and drugs is not working, let's correct that issue.
 
2012-12-20 09:12:31 PM

mgshamster: atomic-age: mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.

This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.

Yeah, it was more addressing ...


Yes, that's true. My father's grandmother was institutionalized, if his accounts bear truth, for little more than bearing a bastard child and not being particularly ashamed of this. Also, keeping to herself in a small cabin, hunting, fishing, and trapping to support herself. Her family was not in favor of her being in the institution, but she was put there by a judge and stayed put away for years.
 
2012-12-20 09:14:11 PM
Would like to know if they tell potential neighbors about their little "issue"?
 
Thinking about it, could this have been the type of deal when the dad shot his son that was breaking into the relatives house - about 3 months ago?
 
2012-12-20 09:15:16 PM
Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH! I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!

I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the
WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM!!!

Puny God.
 
2012-12-20 09:16:12 PM
Excellent rant, Azlefty

My $0.02:

Television. It radically distorts our perception of reality. It amplifies our fear and distrust for fellow citizens. Over and over TV takes exceptional occurrences and repeats it over and over until everybody thinks its a norm.

- People have been unjustly committed to asylums occasionally in the past, and TV has repeated these stories until everybody thinks it's far more common than it really is. So we can't get public support for committing people who really need it.

- So many movies and TV shows about evil government plots that millions of people get paranoid enough to stock up on guns and ammo. I'm a big supporter of the 2nd amendment, but I simply don't understand people buying guns with huge clips. Do they expect to fight a huge civil war? What gave them this idea?

- Violence in our society was actually more common in the US in the past, but TV hyping present day violence non-stop in news and fiction makes people think it's exploding out of control when it actually isn't

- According to TV, ALL Priests are kiddie diddlers, ALL businessmen are crooked, ALL teenagers wearing trenchcoats are mass shooters, ALL camping trips will be interrupted by bears, aliens, marauding motorcycle clubs (take your pick), etc.

Present day TV is slowly poisoning our society. Nobody trusts anybody anymore, so conditioned and overstimulated we've become by TV. I really wish we could turn off TV for a whole year, just to see if things calm down a bit.
 
2012-12-20 09:18:27 PM

leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.


Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.

Schizophrenia breaks down roughly into a rule of thirds. One third of schizophrenics have a single break, recover and never have problems again and it is usually under stress. One third are chronic schizophrenics but are controlled on current medications if they take them which is a rather big if given how bad they make patients and normal people feel. One third are not amenable to treatment with available methods and only institutionalization allows them to live in a humane fashion. Schizophrenics are technically adept if not logical and the worst school massacre by Kehoe in 1927 was committed with explosives and not guns. At Columbine Harris and Klebold also set explosives. You can make a very good quality plastic explosive out of nothing more exotic than salt and petroleum jelly

freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com
 
2012-12-20 09:20:18 PM

OscarTamerz: I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.


And it amazes me that anyone would be comfortable seeing people unjustly deprived of all of their rights in exchange for gun rights for the majority.

Amazes me and makes me really, really sad.
 
hej
2012-12-20 09:22:41 PM

zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.


We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.
 
2012-12-20 09:24:48 PM
To lead
 
2012-12-20 09:35:57 PM

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


Bet you'd have a different opinion if you were locked up in this situation. Defining and identifying "Crazy" is subjective as it gets. Better none locked up than an innocent and undeserving person cast into such a nightmare. I can't believe people think there is a violence free utopia just waiting to be legislated for us.
 
2012-12-20 09:39:32 PM
FTA:

"They hope that their vigilance and their faith in God will keep him from doing something terrible. "

This is not going to end well.
 
2012-12-20 09:39:58 PM

Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?


As soon as the TFers stop subbing because of the lack of an edit feature. So never.
 
2012-12-20 09:40:37 PM

hej: zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.

We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.


Can't tell if serious or troll.
 
2012-12-20 09:42:22 PM

OscarTamerz: leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.


Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental illness lock him up! He doesn't trust the government, mental illness! lock him up!

That's what "mental illness" is about. Getting rid of inconvenient people. The soviet union sent people to Siberia to help their mental illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Sov iet_Union

There's no such thing as "mental illness". An Illness is found with objective tests. There's a problem in the blood chemistry, there's a tumor in the brain, etc and so forth. Mental illness is subjective and that's what makes it useful to get rid of inconvenient people. It's also a useful place to dump patients whom doctors can't figure out what is wrong with them. Ever notice that many a physical disease is classified as "mental illness" until someone finally finds the physical problem?
 
2012-12-20 09:44:54 PM

12349876: Belias: Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.

I would also expect the mom to be dead before she could get the gun. And if she EVER EVER EVER leaves it unlocked or the combination gets leaked...


Reading comprehension fail? Did the article claim the gun was to defend against their 13 year old son? The father is a concealed weapons instructor. They clearly don't keep the gun ready to shoot their son.

But bonus points for repeating a capitalized 'ever' three times... for great justice?
 
2012-12-20 09:46:38 PM

leadmetal: OscarTamerz: leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.

Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental i ...


This is the same crap as, "Well, ADD is just a contrivance, so they must all be contrivances with no basis in physiology whatsoever."

Neurochemical issues can't cause unusual or erratic behavior? Schizophrenia is just made up?
 
2012-12-20 09:50:23 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: To what

You cannot be serious?

Grrr.


anyone else really confused by this?
 
2012-12-20 09:52:25 PM

Fark It: hej: zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.

We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.

Can't tell if serious or troll.


Poes law is kicking my ass these days. I can't help you there.

/the old "kids died, so I must be right" act is wearing kind of thin.
/kids die in lots of situations that people don't seem to care about preventing.
/they won't sacrifice a few bucks to feed an orphan but they will gladly offer up my rifle to themselves feel safer.
/collect all the crooks rifles first, maybe I'll be a believer.
 
2012-12-20 09:52:33 PM
Is there anything left of Mr. Lanza's brain to study? Because if he shot himself in the heart or neck, his brain might be useful to the scientists. Maybe he had a wicked tumor or something ...
 
2012-12-20 09:54:09 PM

leadmetal: There's no such thing as "mental illness".


Oh jesus. Jesus jumped up christ.
 
2012-12-20 09:59:14 PM
NO.
PIGS


puzzles-games.eu

ARE THE PROBLEM
 
2012-12-20 10:06:47 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.

The harping about mental illness is driven by conservatives rationalizing their violent crime enablement and liberals polishing their nonpartisan bona fides.



Ummm, no. Mental health professionals have been screaming about the mental health problem ever since JFK was shot. (Long story there, you can look it up if you want.) The two issues are not even tangentially related, as gun control (i.e. legislation) is only effective on those willing to be legislated to. In other words there will always be readily available guns for those who want them. When I was 16 I made a shootable .22 out of wood, screws, and rubber bands. Hell, you can make them with 3D printers now. Mental health is and always has been the only issue. We know this because it is the only common element to exist in every mass murder in this country's history. (Arguments have been made for every mass murder in history, but such claims can obviously not be proven.) But the fact remains that mental illness is the only commonality, and it appears prominently in every single one. It can not, logically speaking, be anything else.
 
2012-12-20 10:07:46 PM

wildcardjack: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 320x400]

[media-files.gather.com image 550x412]
We have the solutions in case you reeeeaaallly want to use them.


Doctors these days just prescribe a cocktail that includes an epic amount of resperdone or risperdol along with just enough depakote not to give the poor kid liver failure. This basically keeps them too zoned out to cause any major harm.

Dont worry, I honestly cant see him getting into a gun safe even if he knew the combination. That doesnt mean he cant be dangerous, but he wont be heavily armed beyond a chainsaw or book of matches. He will be 18 in 3 years.

Welcome to our life.
 
2012-12-20 10:08:04 PM

spamdog: leadmetal: There's no such thing as "mental illness".

Oh jesus. Jesus jumped up christ.


Yeah, I'm afraid that next he'll be telling us about Thetans.
 
2012-12-20 10:14:28 PM
In September 1972 my parents, the Baltimore City Public Schools and the city's juvenile court put me in a locked State institution when I was nine and a half (9 1/2) years old. They let me out a year and a half later because of overcrowding.

I wasn't dangerous, just worryingly weird; e.g., a month before my 8th birthday, on my way home to get yelled at, grounded and spanked for being expelled from 3rd grade for "fighting" -- 3 bigger boys claimed I started it, the principal thought they bullied me for a good reason, and I'd already been suspended for "fighting" (read: getting beaten up) twice that year -- I stepped in front of a speeding car and wound up on my back in traction for three months with a steel pin through my leg and some innards missing.

If I'd ever made my parents afraid for their lives, instead of just being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," they'd have had the State lock me up till I turned 18. Who needs insurance? Let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Has the world changed so much since then?


Oh, by the way:

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. - Leviticus 20:9 (NIV)

and

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version (KJV)


And these people call themselves Christian. Sheesh.
 
2012-12-20 10:14:49 PM

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Put him in the Marines.
 
2012-12-20 10:17:25 PM
Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


I agree with you %100. Let's just get rid of all the guns!
 
2012-12-20 10:19:05 PM

Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.


Well if you can't demonize groups, how will I claim to have 'done something' next election.
 
2012-12-20 10:19:55 PM
Count me in as someone saved by the change in laws. My mother had me locked up when I was a teenager in one of these private hospitals, she worked for an insurance company and they paid everything. She had the Dr's tell me that they were going to keep me in there after I turned 18; I told them you can't, I'm not a threat to myself or anybody else and you know it, you can sign the release papers now or wait a week until I sign them myself.
I left that hospital homeless and sane, other than a little PTSD which I still deal with, which is far better than being involuntarily stuck in that place until I somehow became a good person again in my parents eyes.
Took until about 35 - 37 for that to happen, so it would have been one long stay.
 
2012-12-20 10:20:21 PM
Tell you what, since we are having a rash of these "my kid is crazy and dangerous and nobody will do nuttin" stories from parents who may or may not be batshiat insane themselves but are violating their children's privacy:

1. Take away all their kiddies, change the names and adopt out all the normal ones. Give them therapy for a while since they must have PTSD from all this publicity, if nothing else.

2. Make the crazy kids wards of the state.

3. Spay & neuter the parents since they have no clue what a kid's civil rights ought to look like. Even if they have the legal right to tell these things it still aint right. I have the legal right to do a lot of things that aren't morally right.

4. Test the parents to find out if they made the little guy into a future cereal killer. Parents do things to their kids that defy description. Since mental illness runs in families maybe they aren't quite right either.

My parents refused to let one of my brothers speak until he was 5 years old and starting school. He was bothering them, so he wasn't allowed to talk at all, ever. It took the school board to make them teach the kid to talk. That's right, his vocal tone was annoying to them and he was a bothersome child, so he was not allowed to speak and did not learn to talk until he started school. Being able to speak is required in school.

Whether these kids are monsters or its on the parents, taking all the kids away will fix everything. Can't really see a downside here.

Did I miss anything?
 
2012-12-20 10:21:27 PM

Balchinian: Mental health is and always has been the only issue.


You and your fellow gun-fanciers can keep on chanting that while the rest of us craft and pass more restrictive legislation.
 
2012-12-20 10:30:59 PM

The One True TheDavid: In September 1972 my parents, the Baltimore City Public Schools and the city's juvenile court put me in a locked State institution when I was nine and a half (9 1/2) years old. They let me out a year and a half later because of overcrowding.
...
If I'd ever made my parents afraid for their lives, instead of just being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," they'd have had the State lock me up till I turned 18. Who needs insurance? Let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Has the world changed so much since then?


Yes it has.

We've been trying to tell you Reagan and the ACLU got rid of the capability to lock up people for being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," a few years after it happenned to you. Now, they have to live in fear of their lives, or pay $1K a day if they can find a spot in a private facility.

We can't lock kids up now until its too late. That's why these things happen. If we could lock up people for being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," there's be a lot more school kids alive right now.

Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.

 
2012-12-20 10:31:03 PM
In the midst of this forum where the concensus is that the mental health "system" is completely ineffective and broken, I would just like to put in a good word for it, and for the medications we have available, and for the range of care and institutions we have. Sure, things could be a lot better, but they have been much, much worse in the past.

There are a lot of broken people, there are a lot of people who can't function well in society, there are a lot of holes in "the system", there are a lot of meds that don't work as well as we wish they could, especially without the side effects.

BUT....there are a lot of people who are functioning well in society because we do have a lot of medications that are wonderful and effective. A huge proportion of people in our society are taking those medications, and while I don't think it's good that they're used to that extent, I believe that much of the overuse is due to caution, to people taking them who don't really need them. But, I'd rather too many people were taking them than not enough were getting them who need them. Many of those meds can literally save peoples' lives; that certainly has been the case for me, and I'm so grateful that I needed them when they were available, and not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.

I also had potential access to a gun when I was in an extremely deep valley of depression, and I'm grateful that I told someone that I was worried that I might avail myself of that access; the therapist was able to remove me from the access, and so I did not end up killing myself.
 
2012-12-20 10:35:10 PM

irreverend mother: Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.


Not enough pain and anguish in the world he could have suffered for what he did to the mentally ill.
 
2012-12-20 10:35:11 PM

Huggermugger: In the midst of this forum where the concensus is that the mental health "system" is completely ineffective and broken, I would just like to put in a good word for it, and for the medications we have available, and for the range of care and institutions we have. Sure, things could be a lot better, but they have been much, much worse in the past.

There are a lot of broken people, there are a lot of people who can't function well in society, there are a lot of holes in "the system", there are a lot of meds that don't work as well as we wish they could, especially without the side effects.

BUT....there are a lot of people who are functioning well in society because we do have a lot of medications that are wonderful and effective. A huge proportion of people in our society are taking those medications, and while I don't think it's good that they're used to that extent, I believe that much of the overuse is due to caution, to people taking them who don't really need them. But, I'd rather too many people were taking them than not enough were getting them who need them. Many of those meds can literally save peoples' lives; that certainly has been the case for me, and I'm so grateful that I needed them when they were available, and not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.

I also had potential access to a gun when I was in an extremely deep valley of depression, and I'm grateful that I told someone that I was worried that I might avail myself of that access; the therapist was able to remove me from the access, and so I did not end up killing myself.


These are all very good observations and definitely need to be mentioned. Yes, the system has a lot of flaws and issues, but it's still much better than it used to be. Mental health care needs more funding and it needs to be accessible to all, and there need to be more residential facilities available to people that could be helped by them, but this is all still a lot better than mental health care has ever been before.
 
2012-12-20 10:36:03 PM
I'm a gun owner and I frequent a few gun-related forums. It always unnerves me whenever someone refers to their collection as "toys" or refer to a gun as "she." Kind of creepy.
 
2012-12-20 10:38:00 PM

orclover: irreverend mother: Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.

Not enough pain and anguish in the world he could have suffered for what he did to the mentally ill.


I always do try to at least keep it in perspective that there were a lot of very, very good reasons to close most of the state run mental hospitals. There were some pretty terrible conditions in a lot of them and they were very poorly run.

The problem with that initiative is that it relied on the idea that community run and privately owned facilities would crop up to take up the slack, but it provided absolutely no funding or help for groups to make that happen. They threw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
2012-12-20 10:43:41 PM
Here's a good first push in the right direction:

Step 1: Find all Aspies in the U.S. and relocate them to Haiti.
Step 2: Seal the border with Dominican Republic.
Step 3: Win.
 
2012-12-20 10:47:41 PM
Maybe nothing needs to change, other than people turning off the damn tv and not freaking out and emotionally calling for drastic changes in law based on a single event. That's how stupid laws that diminish rights get put into place. Maybe you agree with this one, but what about the next law that takes YOUR rights because some rare sensationalistic event caused an outcry for the greater good?

Mass shootings are gruesome and disturbing, but rare, and violent crime in general is dropping.

There is not a shooter or a kiddie diddler waiting around every corner, as the media would have you believe.

Your risk of dying in a car wreck is far greater than being shot, so if you want to protect yourself and your family make sure to drive a safe car, watch out for bad drivers, and be a responsible driver yourself. Teach your kids to do the same.

I agree that mental health services need to be overhauled, but even that is unlikely to make much of a difference in these rare instances. No matter what, we can't prevent them all. Since the extremely violent people are like a needle in a haystack compared to the mentally ill that are no danger to anyone but themselves, trying to profile and guess who needs locked up is a pretty futile practice.
And I personally am not willing to quash the rights of millions, in hopes that we snag a few future shooters with them. The amount of people that ARE willing to go that route is disturbing.
 
2012-12-20 10:48:40 PM

fat_free: Here's a good first push in the right direction:

Step 1: Find all Aspies in the U.S. and relocate them to Haiti.
Step 2: Seal the border with Dominican Republic.
Step 3: Win.


Well we could try fixing them, or discovering them prebirth and either treating or aborting them. But thats alot of work.

Lets ban a bunch of shiat and call it a day :)
 
2012-12-20 10:50:38 PM

Genevieve Marie: These are all very good observations and definitely need to be mentioned. Yes, the system has a lot of flaws and issues, but it's still much better than it used to be. Mental health care needs more funding and it needs to be accessible to all, and there need to be more residential facilities available to people that could be helped by them, but this is all still a lot better than mental health care has ever been before.


One major adversity, though, is that there is still a huge stigma in terms of how medical insurance companies view mental health, which is as a financial loss, and they react by calling it a pre-existing condition, which is an automatic stain on the record of anyone who's ever been treated for mental health issues, and especially if you've been hospitalized. That's why getting rid of the concept of pre-existing conditions is so important, because you want people to avail themselves of mental health care when they need it, and not to avoid getting treatment because they're terrified that doing so will leave a huge blemish on them for the rest of their lives, and they won't be able to get insurance ever again.
 
2012-12-20 10:51:48 PM

spamdog: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Maybe people should actually talk about mental illness publicly instead of pretending it doesn't exist and treating it like a leper colony.


It's a start. One thing people need to discuss openly and frequently is the intermittent nature of mental illness, and the difficulty of getting proper treatment. Even WITH adequate insurance and a loving family, this kid has been hospitalized for 30 days so far this year...because his insurance will only cover that much. The doctors think he needs six months of intensive in-patient treatment, but the insurance won't cover it and the parents can't afford it, so he's already doing the yo-yo treatment so many of us are familiar with: in till he gets better, then out till he gets worse, then in till he gets better, then out...

It takes up to six months to find out IF a medication is going to work at all (or not), and really, especially for a child, it needs to be done under controlled conditions, with nothing else that could impact the patient's mental condition (school, work, relationships, family, other stressors). With the Sandy Hook shooter, people are already going "How could that woman (the dead mom) let her son get out of control like that?!?" Well--this is the way. She couldn't afford the long-term inpatient care, medications take a very long time to assess, and it has to be done over and over again; while kids and teachers are not always understanding of why Junior is sometimes a zombie and sometimes The Flash at school and on the playground.

If more parents could acknowledge that they have problems too, maybe something would get done. But all these parents are out there thinking they're all alone, and then when something does happen, people point fingers: "How could YOU let your child get so out of hand?" and then everyone else shuts up even more.
 
2012-12-20 11:15:26 PM

CygnusDarius: shower_in_my_socks: And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

B-b-b-but Second Amendment! And B. Hussein Obama killing our freedoms!.


You guys are more obsessed with guns than genuine gun-nuts. WTF?

/or maybe you've just never left you safe little suburban bubble and run into truly "will kill you because they think you're Elvis" crazies who have no place to go but the streets.
//sigh.
 
2012-12-20 11:18:36 PM

Huggermugger: not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.


Or if you had been unlucky enough to have been here:

http://vimeo.com/40433864  - Link goes to full video (entitled Titicus Follies); it's the only movie in the US banned from release for reasons other than obscenity.  NSFW (if I recall correctly)

Synopsis: Titicut Follies portrays the existence of occupants of Bridgewater, some of them catatonic, holed up in unlit cells, and only periodically washed. It also depicts inmates/patients required to strip naked publicly, force feeding, and indifference and bullying on the part of many of the institution's staff.  (from wiki)

Or here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resource s/ lobotomist-bedlam-1946/

Link goes to a PBS article about the Life Magazine 1946 expose on the dire state of mental asylums.
 
2012-12-20 11:19:30 PM

Somaticasual: shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple " to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.

And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

The worst school "shooting" happened in the 1920s, and it was a maniac who blew up a school using a bomb. And, that assault weapon in the newtown shooting? It was locked in his car, un-used. He shot people with something no reasonable gun law would have prevented.

Don't write when you've given up all your freedoms in the name of temporary safety.


Actually, the gun law did prevent him.

He had to steal those pistols because he couldn't buy them.

/just establishing a fact, not really going anywhere with it.
 
2012-12-20 11:22:01 PM

Gabrielmot: mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.

Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.


Yes, there has been a worrying tendency in the past few days to equate "mental illness" with violence. The kid in the article suffers from some angry outbursts, and presumably anxiety and depression: emotional problems. These aren't the same as having a psychotic illness.

I sympathise with the person who said their sister with paranoid sz tried to drown their kid, but actually only a minority of people with schizophrenia are a danger to others like that. I did live with someone with very severe Paranoid Sz for a few years, who had a history of violence. What I noticed most in his case was that while he was living with me was the first time he had ever been ill and the people he was with didn't react by wanting him out of the house and in hospital asap. It was also the first time nobody got hurt. I had plenty of time to think about violence and mental illness while he was there - I guess the thing I noticed was that he had been stuck in a spiral of people expecting him to be violent and not listening to him and taking his emotions seriously. It seems this is much more likely with men or boys.

Calling for more controls over "mentally ill" people in general would probably hurt a lot of people who don't deserve it. In the UK at the moment we have new laws whereby people can be forcibly medicated in the community, which were originally brought in to deal with people with severe personality disorders - psychopaths, basically. What has actually happened is that a lot of completely harmless people are being forced to take medications that they don't want. If you think that sounds like a great idea, try a few months on one of the antipsychotics and see how you feel about it then.

Diagnoses of "bipolar" and "ADHD" seem particularly popular with american parents at the moment. I found this video recently which is about a project in California that was shut down after 23 years due to the state financial problems. Apparently they had 100% success with all the kids they treated. They seemed to credit their success on engagement with the kids - once the kids realised that they were listened to and taken seriously they improved. There is too much emphasis on medicalising these problems at the moment, and little serious research on behavioural methods.

Perhaps the system in America really does need to be improved for the sake of genuine psych patients who can't get admitted. But if you are looking for a magic solution to behavioural problems in a pill of any sort it just isn't going to happen. When people are locked up in secure hospitals for violent acts the main focus of their therapy is getting them to take responsibility for their actions. All meds can do is temporarily dope someone up so much that they can't really do anything much at all, and often the treatment that people get in psych hospitals makes their hostility and paranoia worse as well. It is always a BIG mistake for anyone's friends or relatives to think that once someone has been admitted they are "in the best place with people who will take care of them". Modern psych hospitals have very little time for people's innermost thoughts and feelings at all, and can be downright abusive.

Therapeutic means to stop over prescription of anti psychotic medications to children

This is a really big subject, much too big for a fark post. I just want to point out that a witch hunt on "mentally ill" people would probably wind up hurting a lot of people who don't deserve it.
 
2012-12-20 11:36:02 PM
leadmetal:
[...]

Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental illness lock him up! He doesn't trust the government, mental illness! lock him up!


I'm with you except for for this: "The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason."

Let's acknowledge that there's some kind of problem here. If all we have to go on is what we read in the paper we can't be sure what the problem is. Maybe he has a perfectly good reason, like maybe his parents are Satanic ritual pedophiles, or maybe he's gay or transsexual and/or much smarter than his parents and they hate him for it, or maybe they should look for an endocrine disorder or a tumor, maybe... I'm driven to support the underdog too, but something IS wrong somewhere.

Obviously, they should rule out a physical cause, and they should thoroughly investigate the family, the schools, etc. (Whoever "they" are.)

In any case, unless the parents are so vicious they should be locked up for a long time, it might be a good idea for everybody concerned for him to be in a controlled and safe environment with other kids like him, run by people who actually give a damn and can relate to the kids, until he learns to control himself so those around him can feel safe. (Assuming he's not dying of an inoperable brain tumor, in which case they should probably skip straight to allowing him to choose euthanasia -- in an ideal world anyway)

Keeping other people is not necessarily incompatible with human rights, freedom and dignity, once you broaden the picture to include the kid and those around him. There has to be a moral and effective way to protect both him and those around him or we humans truly are nothing but a cancer on the planet.

But yes, in general you are 100% correct: our society does have some kind of "immune response" that acts against misfits. (Like me, e.g.) Maybe it's socially constructed to support the current political/economic system, maybe it's a holdover from persecuting heretics in our society's Christian past, maybe there is a Collective Unconscious (or Hive Mind), or maybe Quatermass and the Pit (link) was based on a true story. Whatever. The problem then is that sometimes this "whatever" IS based on something, and there are some times when that "something" is a clear & pressing danger to other people's life, limb and human rights & dignities. We can't focus solely on him to the exclusion of the rest of the world. (Maybe he does enough of that himself already.)

In another alternative, one of our society's foundation myths holds that YHWH sent Cain into the wilderness: is there still a wilderness he can go to and a way to prepare him for it, if that's what he'd rather do? When you kill something and eat it that's called "hunting," and perhaps his anger could motivate him to learn to hunt effectively -- in the process sublimating his anger and destructive tendencies for a worthwhile purpose. Take me, for example: if I do have a 'brain chemistry problem" and if it is hereditary then the presence of "the frontier" might explain why my line didn't die out before I had myself sterilized without ever having offspring: when you couldn't get along with your family or neighbors you could go off by yourself with your knife, your fish hooks and your gun to live on what you could get. Perhaps my forefathers only really became a problem to others when we stopped roaming in the forest by ourselves or with our chosen few, and instead started getting locked up and/or forcibly sedated. Could it be that we're just too damn civilized these days, that our current laws discourage people from say traipsing around the Great Smokies with a .30-06?

Or maybe this problem is just too complicated for our fat lazy stupid American brains to deal with and he might as well be "stoned with stones that he may die." At least he'd be out of his misery before too long.

I hate to admit it but knee-jerking won't always do. Sometimes ya gotta give yourself a headache.
 
2012-12-20 11:48:08 PM
He's right behnd me, isn't he?
 
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