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(WOODTV Grand Rapids)   "Guns are not the problem...mental illness is the problem," says mom who keeps a gun because she lives in fear for her life from her mentally ill son   (woodtv.com) divider line 193
    More: Obvious, mental health professional, mom, guns  
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6483 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 7:52 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 08:13:34 PM  

CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.


Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.
 
2012-12-20 08:13:39 PM  

mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.


Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.
 
2012-12-20 08:15:05 PM  

Gabrielmot: Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?


Exactly.
 
2012-12-20 08:16:44 PM  

pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.


Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.
 
2012-12-20 08:17:16 PM  

Gabrielmot: mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.

Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.


I met a kid like that once. I, and a few others who knew him, are fairly certain that he's going to end up in jail for hurting others.
 
2012-12-20 08:18:40 PM  
This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.
 
2012-12-20 08:20:43 PM  
Thanks Ronnie Raygun!

The GOP is proven correct once again. Eliminating public mental health systems is good for all of America!
 
2012-12-20 08:21:25 PM  
So when the kid did something odd at young age they put him into the hands of the licensed doctors and those doctors started drugging the kid and he got worse. One could say the medical system is broken. This family is likely another victim of the medical cartel.

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Dr. Thomas Szasz
 
2012-12-20 08:21:59 PM  

whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.


Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.
 
2012-12-20 08:22:29 PM  

Gabrielmot: The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?


Maybe there should not be expectations placed on the very mentally ill that they need to integrate with society as if they are normal.
I think the parents are brave for speaking out like this.
 
2012-12-20 08:22:56 PM  
Getting angry when overwhelmed is not the same thing as deliberately planning a mass murder.

These parents sound a bit like drama queens.
 
2012-12-20 08:23:02 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.
 
Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:18 PM  

Tumunga: Prank Call of Cthulhu: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep.

Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.

My cat ate hers.


Whoa. You cat is hard-core.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:18 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


Because socialism, goddamnit!
 
I had read somewhere, but cannot recall exactly where, a very succinct description of the 'why'. As I recall, it was motivated primarily by entrenched racism. That is, certain groups have always had their way and their say and the thought that certain inferiors (poor minorities) might be given the chance to become equals unnerves them. It might be safe to say that they know what the end result of equality in healthcare and education would bring. They can't have the handicap narrowed have to look at some black or latino man in the eye as an equal.
 
Look at how bugnuts they went when a black Democrat was elected. The future is looking less and less white-dominated all the time and that scares the hell out of them.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:23 PM  

spamdog: I think the parents are brave for speaking out like this.


The parents aren't the ones who will face any consequences for speaking out. Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.
 
2012-12-20 08:26:30 PM  
*your*
 
/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?
 
2012-12-20 08:27:28 PM  

Max Awesome: *your*
 
/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?


Also this.
 
2012-12-20 08:28:22 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.


Well you said it yourself. There is a stigma attached.

I think what's actually going to be a cause of stigmatization are the symptoms of his actual mental illness such as violent outbursts, rather than someone googling his name.
I mean do you really think he's going to be getting a job where they do that kind of screening, given his mental condition?
I think you've got your priorities backwards here.
 
2012-12-20 08:28:45 PM  
Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.
 
2012-12-20 08:29:50 PM  
Rant On!
 
ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the select fire versions and was available at the corner hardware store.
If we look at these incidents we see that even including the Criminal syndicate acts like the Valentine's Day Massacre, that up until the early 1980s these events were very rare in the United States. 
Now the reason I show these facts is twofold; first that the tools used by those who commit the atrocities were more easily available in the past, remember prior to the gun control act of 1968 you could buy guns through the mail and second, to show that contrary to some peoples assertions these tools have been around and easily available for decades yet we did not see these acts committed.
Which makes one wonder if the tools were available why didn't the disturbed commit these acts as they are now?
If we actually review the possible reasons two factors immediately become apparent; Mental Health Treatment and the Media.
The Mental  Health Care issues began with the case of O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), a landmark decision in mental health law.  The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends.  While this affirmed the  rights of those who  any consider "different" it also opened up the  doors for polticos from both parties to  empty out  State Mental Hospitals while slashing mental health budgets insuring  that those freed from  the hospital and those with problems in the  future would not receive the treatment needed to be able to integrate into society. This issue was recognized with President Carter signed the Mental Health Systems act of 1980 to create the system needed for treatment of these people.  When Ronald Reagan took office in 1981 he was responsible for slashing the Budget for this program despite signing massive spending increases and deficits into law, this underfunding has continued to today with BOTH parties being responsible!
The next issue with Mental Health was the "correction" of mental health laws to supposedly comply with O'Connor v Donaldson, when in fact what these laws did was insure that the State would not have to properly budget for treatment of those severely mentally ill by redefining what constituted a danger to oneself or others, this is what allows involuntary commitment to Mental Health Hospitals.  Here in CA all one has to do is look around us to see the result, daily we can see those whose grip on reality (or lack of) endangers themselves or others yet unless they are actively trying to harm themselves or others, there is no option for treatment and even when they reach the high threshold it is in many  if not most cases  treated as a purely criminal matter instead of the Medical issue it is or if they are committed for treatment they are stabilized and instead of being put into a functioning community mental health program that can guide them they are turned back onto  the  streets to begin  the  cycle anew.  Even families who are trying to help their family members get needed care get no help from the system  and must jump through sometimes impossible hoops in an attempt to get needed care (this is the picture emerging from CT) or in many cases are forced to turn loved ones out into the  streets and/or watch helplessly as  they  enter the Criminal Justice system due to the  lack of treatment Kelly Thomas and his death is a good example of this. 
The next item is the Media, prior to 1980s most media was a local affair and the National News was heard at 6 and 9 on your local station.  The 1980s brought us a national saturation of cable and satellite TV; now instead of the news being on twice in the evening we now had 24 hour news channels such as CNN relaying any all stories that would fill the program between commercials.  This also led to an explosion of available Stations creating the need for more and more stories that would grab the viewers' attention and make them watch.  With the  ever increasing  need to fill "airtime" we saw more and more "human Interest" stories on people who in an earlier decade would not be not be newsworthy if not for the need to fill that airtime.  It was at this time we first started seeing the occurrence of these atrocities. I can remember driving home from Tucson AZ and listening about the Atrocity at the  San Ysidro CA McDonalds at the hands of James  Huberty,  who had the day of  the  atrocity called a mental health center who did not return his call because they  did not fell he was a danger to himself or others- It is a sad testament when a unreturned phone call can be attributed to causing the  deaths of so many. Then along comes the internet and fame is just a click away and yet another massive expansion of  the  media  with more space to fill and quicker responses to any acts like those being  discussed.  This is where we see the increase not only in these acts but in the severity of the actions, since along with the increased coverage comes the media recognition which equates to these people as the fame and notoriety that they seek- remember all the foiled plots to shoot and blow up schools after Columbine, and this week?   The increased coverage helps trigger these people into acting and thus becoming "somebody!"
When one looks at the facts surrounding the acts we see that even though the tools-firearms- used to commit the atrocities have been around for a century or more it was not until the two issues I have mentioned came into being that we started to see the rise of these acts.  Now it would be easy to scream like many are doing and want the Press to be regulated or violates ones rights just because they might think be "odd," but that is wrong and goes against the principals set forth by our Founding Fathers and thus cannot be done.
Instead I propose some actual intelligent (as we have been shown there is no such thing as "common sense in elected officials) legislation and voluntary guidelines for the press to combat and prevent these atrocities, they are:
Restore and fully fund the Mental Health Systems act of 1980 to create the system and professionals needed for treatment of these people, this includes group homes and independent living centers that provide minimal but needed supervision to guide those with mental illness back into society and yes -gasp- Hospitals to provide treatment for those with severe mental health issues that are now on the streets.
Expand mental health clinics into Colleges, Universities and High Schools, for many the signs of Mental illness do not manifest until later teens or early twenties.
Change the mental health evaluation laws to allow for up to 30 days of evaluation as our Federal laws now do.
Make any evaluation be done by a Psychiatric Doctor, in to many states we have para-professionals or Family Practice MDs making these decisions and as skilled and caring they are this is still a medical issue requiring specialized evaluation from a Psychiatric Medical Doctor.
Change the involuntary commitment laws to allow families and advocates to be able to have easier access to involuntary commitment while at the same time allowing those who have successfully completed treatment a procedure to expunge the commitment form their records based on their successful recovery and ongoing treatment, after 60 months of success.
For the Press
When this type of incident occurs REFUSE to identify who committed the act,  or instead identify them and also use a disparaging and comical name, such as calling the Tucson Shooter "Uncle Fester" or the Aurora Shooter as "Side Show Bob"
Do not interview the doers Family friends etc.  Deny them the notoriety they crave.
If you do report on the doer do no human Interest things such as asking why?  Instead report just the facts of the case such as court appearances etc. 
Do report on every aspect on the Victims, it was the doers intent to destroy them to promote himself, show him that he is nothing and they are everything.
 Give it time before you play the political game, yes we know it will occur but this also emboldens these people since their act can "Change the course of the Nation" and once again bring them notoriety.
Will this stop these acts?  No but it will have a more positive effect on decreasing them than all of the ineffective gun laws being  pushed as we can see by  the rarity of these events prior to 1980. 
If we truly want to have a Conversation on steps to take here is the place to Start! 
 
 
Rant Off!
 
2012-12-20 08:31:14 PM  

Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.


The media needs someone to blame and its about to run short of guns and video games to point at (once their favorite politicians have acted they won't want to review those actions and say they failed).

We DO have a mental health problem that borders on being an epidemic. The spotlight has pointed here many times before.
I'm not sure how else we can expect the public to react. If they don't see these people as curable, they're going to ostracize them and it will make things worse.
 
2012-12-20 08:32:00 PM  

pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.


Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"
 
2012-12-20 08:32:17 PM  

Azlefty: Rant On!
 
ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


To make readable
 
2012-12-20 08:32:25 PM  

CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.


Funny how the libs ignore it when it does not advanc e their agenda!
 
2012-12-20 08:33:08 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


I stand by what I said always, I think...
 
*)
 
2012-12-20 08:33:35 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.


It's pretty much the problem with respect to mass shootings. Sane people tend to kill when there's something concrete in it for them, or when someone's really, really pissed them off. That tends to mean single targets and targeting other adults.

People that go kill a bunch of strangers, the primary problem is the crazies.
 
2012-12-20 08:33:38 PM  

spamdog: Genevieve Marie: Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.

Well you said it yourself. There is a stigma attached.

I think what's actually going to be a cause of stigmatization are the symptoms of his actual mental illness such as violent outbursts, rather than someone googling his name.
I mean do you really think he's going to be getting a job where they do that kind of screening, given his mental condition?
I think you've got your priorities backwards here.


The parents are the only ones reporting his symptoms here. You're assuming that they're reporting them in a totally accurate way. They may be, but they also may not be. There's no way to get either the child's perspective or the perspective of any of his teachers or doctors.  That's kind of the problem with reporting a parent's perspective on their child's mental illness with names attached to the story and no journalistic checks to make sure the story is accurate and fair to the child being reported on.

Also, the child is only 13. There's still time to work with him, and hopefully get him to a place where he's stable enough to lead some sort of independent life. That effort will be more difficult though, if potential employers and others are able to google the name and see that his parents think he's a potential mass murderer.
 
2012-12-20 08:33:49 PM  

Azlefty: CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.

Funny how the libs ignore it when it does not advanc e their agenda!


Speak freely.
 
2012-12-20 08:34:00 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.
 
2012-12-20 08:35:28 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


Mostly, it would be nice to correct typos. Maybe the editing can be allowed if it collapses the original post (viewable by a button) and shows the update as such.
 
2012-12-20 08:35:41 PM  

pxlboy: ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"

Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.


It's actually one of the things I like about Fark; that you can't go back and change what you said.
 
2012-12-20 08:38:53 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.
 
And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).


THIS. THIS. And more of THIS.
 
2012-12-20 08:41:10 PM  

screechingbitermonkey: shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.

And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

THIS. THIS. And more of THIS.


But what if the British invade?
 
2012-12-20 08:41:44 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Also, the child is only 13. There's still time to work with him, and hopefully get him to a place where he's stable enough to lead some sort of independent life.


FTA:

But his parents said it takes too long to get help, and that drugs don't always help.

"We are running out of drugs to try, and he's only 13 years old," his mom said.

Insurance covered 20 of the 30 days at Pine Rest this year. Doctors want him to stay for 6 months, but at $1,000 or so a day, they can't afford it, they said.


I think these parents talking to the media about this is pretty much a cry for help. It's all very well and good to say that he could become a normal citizen, but the point of the parents talking to the media about it, is that he isn't getting the proper care that he needs in order for this to happen.

I really, really think you have your priorities backwards.
-Somebody- is going to have to start talking about this in order for it to be addressed.
 
2012-12-20 08:43:04 PM  
My jimmies have been rustled. I have a mental illness and I'm tired of being painted as a violent sociopath who will shoot everyone at work at the drop of a hat. I have good days and bad days, and on bad days I call in sick and sleep for 15 or 20 hours. The stigma has gotten worse.

Mental Healthcare needs to be changed. It takes me 2 weeks for an appointment to talk to someone, and it's expensive as well.
 
2012-12-20 08:44:39 PM  
We need to return to the old system of the mentally ill being in locked institutions away from everyone else.
 
2012-12-20 08:46:40 PM  

flamingboar: My jimmies have been rustled. I have a mental illness and I'm tired of being painted as a violent sociopath who will shoot everyone at work at the drop of a hat. I have good days and bad days, and on bad days I call in sick and sleep for 15 or 20 hours. The stigma has gotten worse.

Mental Healthcare needs to be changed. It takes me 2 weeks for an appointment to talk to someone, and it's expensive as well.


Let's not forget about the ridiculously-expensive medications and insurers only covering the generic (or a tiny fraction of the name brand). I usually have to shop two or three pharmacies before I find one that actually has mine in stock.
 
2012-12-20 08:47:25 PM  

Thisbymaster: We need to return to the old system of the mentally ill being in locked institutions away from everyone else.

 
You could paint a mile of fence with a brush that wide.
 
How's the view up there?
 
2012-12-20 08:48:31 PM  

Thisbymaster: We need to return to the old system of the mentally illguns being in locked institutionsarmories away from everyone else.

 
2012-12-20 08:48:42 PM  

spamdog: I really, really think you have your priorities backwards.
-Somebody- is going to have to start talking about this in order for it to be addressed.


You're making assumptions about my priorities that aren't totally accurate. I'm a big believer in reforming the mental health system. As a teenager, I suffered major depression and was diagnosed with several different things, including ADHD, and put on a lot of different medications. I came out of all of that treatment with a dependence on Adderall that it took a long time to shake and with a complete and total misdiagnosis.

As it turns out, I have a sleep disorder. For the last several years, the only medication I've had to take has been stuff to help me sleep, and I am completely and totally healthy otherwise. But when I was young? I was labelled as bipolar, as possibly as having "oppositional defiance" and I can't imagine what it would have done to my mental state to have my parents go on record as saying that I was a really bad kid. I wasn't- I was a really good kid that was basically constantly operating in a sleep deprived state.
 
Mental illness is incredibly complex and difficult to accurately diagnose and treat. This kid's parents probably are crying out for help, but they're doing it in a way that compromises their child's incredibly private medical information in a way that may result in him being unfairly labelled by those that know him for the rest of his life. That's a terrible thing to do, any way you look at it.

I understand these parents need help. I don't think talking to the media, particularly in this context, is an appropriate way  to try and obtain it.
 
2012-12-20 08:49:15 PM  
This parent has the responsibility to keep her kid away from society and her family. If "the system" is the only available option, so be it. Call the police at every infraction, take him to the hospital for every outburst. Document, complain, press charges. Do everything possible to take him out of the home. No person should live in daily fear of anyone, least of all a child. If the kid snaps and does hurt someone, mommy dearest knows that she had the responsibility to stop it from happening and she did nothing because she couldn't bring herself to it out of misplaced loyalty and affection. If the kid is that broken, there is no helping, only preventing.
 
2012-12-20 08:50:17 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


The AR15 is just kind of a toy for most of its owners. It can also be used for competitive shooting. It's very accurate, relatively light, light-recoiling, and easy to use. The 5.56mm or .223 is generally considered by hunters to be marginal for humanely dispatching anything larger than squirrels. Hollowpoints are because, in defensive situations, your best chance of getting an assailant quickly stopped is to blow a huge farking hole in them. Most people are not tolerant enough of recoil to want to use the hand-cannons that can do this with a simple round-nose lead projectile.
 
2012-12-20 08:51:00 PM  
Jesus, can we stop acting like it's one or the other? Can't the problem be guns AND crazy people?
 
2012-12-20 08:51:41 PM  

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


This, the standard needs to change from immediate risk to self and others to indeterminable risk. It's too hard to have someone locked up. The result is that many mentally unstable people end up homeless and without care. The effort to be humane has resulted in suffering instead.

Yes, I have actually worked with doctors to have someone committed before. It's too difficult and they keep hurting others, just not badly /enough/.
 
2012-12-20 08:57:40 PM  
Also, I'm very uncomfortable seeing the dialogue about mental illness focus on protecting "normal" people from the mentally ill rather than focus on helping the mentally ill get the help they need.
 
2012-12-20 08:59:39 PM  

CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.


THIS
And it only lasted for about 36 hours, since now they've moved on to numerous other scapegoats: women, teachers unions, public education. I'm currently waiting for New Gingrich to propose his 'Corps of Untrained Darkie Teenage Boy Janitors With Glocks' as the salvation for everything.
 
2012-12-20 08:59:55 PM  

way south: Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.

The media needs someone to blame and its about to run short of guns and video games to point at (once their favorite politicians have acted they won't want to review those actions and say they failed).

We DO have a mental health problem that borders on being an epidemic. The spotlight has pointed here many times before.
I'm not sure how else we can expect the public to react. If they don't see these people as curable, they're going to ostracize them and it will make things worse.



And we know who to thank for this epidemic; conservatives and their short sighted policies. Backed, as always, by Big Money. Push it onto the States, eliminate our federal tax burden. Worked about as well for us as GOP ideas on banking regulation.


Perhaps what is most interesting about the change in policies of involuntary commitment is the coalition that helped bring it about: a combination of "law and order" conservatives, economic conservatives, and liberal groups that sought reform in the pr ovision of mental health services. But the policy shift had hardly anything at all to do with the mentally ill or the practitioners who treated them. It was designed to lower taxes and shift responsibility away from the federal government. Ironically then , the need for reform perceived by those involved and concerned with the mentally ill (practitioners and families) was co-opted by the interests of capital.
Link
 
2012-12-20 09:03:27 PM  

mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.


This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.
 
2012-12-20 09:04:15 PM  

Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!

I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."

I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.

Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on

Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms

The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years

The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle

The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906

The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893

The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911

The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935

The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963

In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns

In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"

All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


/I tried to read your whole rant, but really, i lost consciousness after the first thousand words.
 
2012-12-20 09:05:07 PM  

Jim_Callahan: TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.

It's pretty much the problem with respect to mass shootings. Sane people tend to kill when there's something concrete in it for them, or when someone's really, really pissed them off. That tends to mean single targets and targeting other adults.

People that go kill a bunch of strangers, the primary problem is the crazies.


There are about 10,000 Americans killed per year by firearms. Nothing makes me facepalm harder than when people want to focus the gun violence discussion entirely on the mass killings that take maybe 20 lives per year, less than the number generally killed by bee stings, deer (via auto-collision), lightning, or dogs.

Despite their over-representation in mass killings, the mentally ill do not commit violent crime at a rate above the national average.
 
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