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(WOODTV Grand Rapids)   "Guns are not the problem...mental illness is the problem," says mom who keeps a gun because she lives in fear for her life from her mentally ill son   (woodtv.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, mental health professional, mom, guns  
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6493 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 7:52 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



193 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2012-12-20 06:37:29 PM  
What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?
 
2012-12-20 07:52:41 PM  
To what
 
2012-12-20 07:53:22 PM  

Indubitably: To what


You cannot be serious?
 
Grrr.
 
2012-12-20 07:54:45 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Euthanize and try again?
 
2012-12-20 07:54:55 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Buy him a copy of Call of Duty.
 
2012-12-20 07:55:45 PM  
But then I'd have to pay more taxes and I'd rather schools got shot up than pay more taxes.
 
2012-12-20 07:55:47 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Easy. He's coming right for us!

i98.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-20 07:56:06 PM  
My guess if mom can fix her vocal fry, everyone around her would be less crazy.
 
2012-12-20 07:56:19 PM  
This the End, my only friend, the End.
 
2012-12-20 07:56:51 PM  
Only in freakin' Grand Rapids would anyone be that fakring stupid.
 
2012-12-20 07:57:11 PM  
Hope she's a responsible gun owner and hide's it somewhere smart like the flour bowl or in plain site.
 
2012-12-20 07:57:15 PM  
Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.
 
2012-12-20 07:57:22 PM  
Look in a mirror first, then look at them.
 
2012-12-20 07:57:37 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Euthanize him for the greater good.
 
2012-12-20 07:57:53 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep. 
 
Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.
 
2012-12-20 07:58:42 PM  
Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.
 
2012-12-20 07:59:03 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


"Accidentally" leave your gun out in hopes that your child will kill himself and thereby relieve you of your burden? No way that could back-fire.
 
2012-12-20 07:59:06 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


"he says he'll kill himself"

Let him. Problem solved.
 
2012-12-20 08:00:13 PM  
No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.

The harping about mental illness is driven by conservatives rationalizing their violent crime enablement and liberals polishing their nonpartisan bona fides.
 
2012-12-20 08:00:48 PM  
This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.
 
2012-12-20 08:01:39 PM  
Oh, look...another gun control thread.
 
/bails
 
2012-12-20 08:01:40 PM  
Quit using pronouns, you jackhats.
 
Grow up.
 
2012-12-20 08:01:41 PM  

Belias: Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.


You're right, she would be dead by the time the kid goes stabby.

www.immortalmusic.net
 
2012-12-20 08:01:59 PM  

spamdog: But then I'd have to pay more taxes and I'd rather schools got shot up than pay more taxes.


With less students to teach, your taxes should go down. It's nice that someone has the nerve to cull the herd every once in a while.

/window seat.
 
2012-12-20 08:02:55 PM  
Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.
 
2012-12-20 08:03:05 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep.

Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.


My cat ate hers.
 
2012-12-20 08:03:42 PM  
There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.
 
And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).
 
2012-12-20 08:04:01 PM  

mc_madness: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Euthanize him for the greater good.


3.bp.blogspot.com

The Greater Good
 
2012-12-20 08:04:02 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


Maybe people should actually talk about mental illness publicly instead of pretending it doesn't exist and treating it like a leper colony.
 
2012-12-20 08:04:07 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


They're allowed to, though, aren't they?  Just like they can release information about themselves, they can also release information about their kids.  Parents are the ones who give consent for medical procedures and transfer of medical records from one hospital to the next, so why can't they talk about them publicly, too?
 
/Not saying they should
 
2012-12-20 08:05:04 PM  
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (WOOD) - They have rigged their bedroom door to make noise when it's opened, for fear their mentally ill son will try to kill them in their sleep.

Their other children know when to lock themselves in another room. They've locked kitchen knives in their safe.

"At the worst of it last year, I had to come to terms with the idea that I may have to kill my own child in order to protect my family," said the boy's dad, Paul Ledford.


/This is truly the trap most parents fall in when they have a mentally unstable child that they fear could harm them or their families. You can call the police, emergency services, but they will say, "What have they done? We can't do anything unless they have threatened or caused injury to themselves or someone else.". It's the law, they can't touch them unless they have already hurt someone, or are armed and threatening. Otherwise...we can't arrest or commit someone for being weird. Weird isn't against the law.

This is sad, as i had a mentally ill sister who was a paranoid schizophrenic. She acted odd, but the could do nothing until she tried to drown my child in the tub. Then, yes, they could act. Until that point, you live in fear that the person will wake you up with a knife in your neck, or hearing gunshots. I feel very sad for this family.
 
2012-12-20 08:05:17 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.
 
2012-12-20 08:06:10 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep.

Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.


' "At the age of 6, he had a suicide plan," she said. ' It's depressing to think about, but there could very well be a long-developed reason why so many illness have suicidal tendencies as a symptom.
 
2012-12-20 08:06:25 PM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep. 
 
Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.


Nah, you get prededtors to do the dirty work. Encourage the kid to take rides from a stranger with puppies.
 
2012-12-20 08:06:37 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

They have rigged their bedroom door to make noise when it's opened, for fear their mentally ill son will try to kill them in their sleep.


Off hand, it's time he was institutionalized...ok, past time he was institutionalized.
 
2012-12-20 08:06:56 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

media-files.gather.com
We have the solutions in case you reeeeaaallly want to use them.
 
2012-12-20 08:07:02 PM  

Indubitably: Look in a mirror first, then look at them.


This requires personal responsibility. A trait that, sadly, has become a lost art.
 
2012-12-20 08:07:15 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


There isn't anything to do.
I was listening to a local psychiatrist describe how the funding simply dried up and many facilities shut down decades ago. Patients have no where to go, there was no treatment for many. A good number end up homeless or in jail.
They'll probably just keep the kid till he's old enough to wander off someplace on his own. God only knows what will happen.

The government, meanwhile, is trying to decide how many clips should fit in the magazine of an assault pistol.
 
2012-12-20 08:08:00 PM  
Welcome to the ugly underbelly of mental health care in America.

Pretty much yes...if you can't fork over the $1000 per day to keep your teenaged danger to society in a place where he can get the treatment he needs, you are forced to keep him in your home essentially without treatment or turn him out on the streets.

This couple is living a nightmare. And the government thinks that taking the guns out of this house is going to prevent this kid from killing his parents. WTF?
 
2012-12-20 08:08:40 PM  
shower_in_my_socks: "crazy got a gun."

I love Aerosmith.
 
2012-12-20 08:09:26 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).


B-b-b-but Second Amendment! And B. Hussein Obama killing our freedoms!.
 
2012-12-20 08:09:52 PM  

mgshamster: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

They're allowed to, though, aren't they?  Just like they can release information about themselves, they can also release information about their kids.  Parents are the ones who give consent for medical procedures and transfer of medical records from one hospital to the next, so why can't they talk about them publicly, too?
 
/Not saying they should


Oh they're absolutely legally allowed to, I just personally think it's a very bad decision. This kid is 13. The kid from that "I am Adam Lanza's Mother" piece is 11. Their parents have chosen to publicly label them as likely threats to society, in spite of the fact that mass shootings are actually still pretty rare, and in spite of the fact that mentally ill people are actually more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators.

Yes, the mental health system needs major overhaul, but people are making a lot of assumptions about Adam Lanza right now without a whole lot of evidence to go on. I'm sure mental illness was a factor, but we don't know how big a factor or exactly what happened and why yet, and we probably won't for a long time.

I seem to recall some of the same issues being discussed after Columbine, and it turned out later that almost all of the media narrative on the story was false and had very little to do with what actually happened.
 
2012-12-20 08:10:07 PM  
For the "clever" insinuators: gotcha.
 
*)
 
2012-12-20 08:10:27 PM  

Belias: Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.


I would also expect the mom to be dead before she could get the gun. And if she EVER EVER EVER leaves it unlocked or the combination gets leaked...
 
2012-12-20 08:10:52 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


My grade 4 teacher used to tell a joke:

Name 3 things that you can use to tell a secret:
1. Telephone
2. Telegraph
3. Tellawoman

Get it? "Tell a woman", heh... I slay me!
 
2012-12-20 08:11:47 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (WOOD) - They have rigged their bedroom door to make noise when it's opened, for fear their mentally ill son will try to kill them in their sleep.

Their other children know when to lock themselves in another room. They've locked kitchen knives in their safe.

"At the worst of it last year, I had to come to terms with the idea that I may have to kill my own child in order to protect my family," said the boy's dad, Paul Ledford.

/This is truly the trap most parents fall in when they have a mentally unstable child that they fear could harm them or their families. You can call the police, emergency services, but they will say, "What have they done? We can't do anything unless they have threatened or caused injury to themselves or someone else.". It's the law, they can't touch them unless they have already hurt someone, or are armed and threatening. Otherwise...we can't arrest or commit someone for being weird. Weird isn't against the law.

This is sad, as i had a mentally ill sister who was a paranoid schizophrenic. She acted odd, but the could do nothing until she tried to drown my child in the tub. Then, yes, they could act. Until that point, you live in fear that the person will wake you up with a knife in your neck, or hearing gunshots. I feel very sad for this family.


Wow. God that's horrible.
 
2012-12-20 08:12:16 PM  
Mental illness must be epidemic in the US. Is it a symptom or cause of the insatiable need for guns?
 
2012-12-20 08:12:30 PM  
Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.
 
2012-12-20 08:12:58 PM  
This is what I've been saying all week. Guns are not the problem, they are only the tool of the mentally ill that are not being helped, and have more rights than we do.
 
2012-12-20 08:12:58 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple " to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.

And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).


The worst school "shooting" happened in the 1920s, and it was a maniac who blew up a school using a bomb. And, that assault weapon in the newtown shooting? It was locked in his car, un-used. He shot people with something no reasonable gun law would have prevented.

Don't write when you've given up all your freedoms in the name of temporary safety.
 
2012-12-20 08:13:34 PM  

CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.


Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.
 
2012-12-20 08:13:39 PM  

mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.


Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.
 
2012-12-20 08:15:05 PM  

Gabrielmot: Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?


Exactly.
 
2012-12-20 08:16:44 PM  

pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.


Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.
 
2012-12-20 08:17:16 PM  

Gabrielmot: mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.

Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.


I met a kid like that once. I, and a few others who knew him, are fairly certain that he's going to end up in jail for hurting others.
 
2012-12-20 08:18:40 PM  
This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.
 
2012-12-20 08:20:43 PM  
Thanks Ronnie Raygun!

The GOP is proven correct once again. Eliminating public mental health systems is good for all of America!
 
2012-12-20 08:21:25 PM  
So when the kid did something odd at young age they put him into the hands of the licensed doctors and those doctors started drugging the kid and he got worse. One could say the medical system is broken. This family is likely another victim of the medical cartel.

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Dr. Thomas Szasz
 
2012-12-20 08:21:59 PM  

whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.


Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.
 
2012-12-20 08:22:29 PM  

Gabrielmot: The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?


Maybe there should not be expectations placed on the very mentally ill that they need to integrate with society as if they are normal.
I think the parents are brave for speaking out like this.
 
2012-12-20 08:22:56 PM  
Getting angry when overwhelmed is not the same thing as deliberately planning a mass murder.

These parents sound a bit like drama queens.
 
2012-12-20 08:23:02 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.
 
Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:18 PM  

Tumunga: Prank Call of Cthulhu: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

Put a pillow over his head and smother him in his sleep.

Seriously. Even animals know what to do when they have defective young.

My cat ate hers.


Whoa. You cat is hard-core.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:18 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


Because socialism, goddamnit!
 
I had read somewhere, but cannot recall exactly where, a very succinct description of the 'why'. As I recall, it was motivated primarily by entrenched racism. That is, certain groups have always had their way and their say and the thought that certain inferiors (poor minorities) might be given the chance to become equals unnerves them. It might be safe to say that they know what the end result of equality in healthcare and education would bring. They can't have the handicap narrowed have to look at some black or latino man in the eye as an equal.
 
Look at how bugnuts they went when a black Democrat was elected. The future is looking less and less white-dominated all the time and that scares the hell out of them.
 
2012-12-20 08:24:23 PM  

spamdog: I think the parents are brave for speaking out like this.


The parents aren't the ones who will face any consequences for speaking out. Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.
 
2012-12-20 08:26:30 PM  
*your*
 
/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?
 
2012-12-20 08:27:28 PM  

Max Awesome: *your*
 
/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?


Also this.
 
2012-12-20 08:28:22 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.


Well you said it yourself. There is a stigma attached.

I think what's actually going to be a cause of stigmatization are the symptoms of his actual mental illness such as violent outbursts, rather than someone googling his name.
I mean do you really think he's going to be getting a job where they do that kind of screening, given his mental condition?
I think you've got your priorities backwards here.
 
2012-12-20 08:28:45 PM  
Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.
 
2012-12-20 08:29:50 PM  
Rant On!
 
ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the select fire versions and was available at the corner hardware store.
If we look at these incidents we see that even including the Criminal syndicate acts like the Valentine's Day Massacre, that up until the early 1980s these events were very rare in the United States. 
Now the reason I show these facts is twofold; first that the tools used by those who commit the atrocities were more easily available in the past, remember prior to the gun control act of 1968 you could buy guns through the mail and second, to show that contrary to some peoples assertions these tools have been around and easily available for decades yet we did not see these acts committed.
Which makes one wonder if the tools were available why didn't the disturbed commit these acts as they are now?
If we actually review the possible reasons two factors immediately become apparent; Mental Health Treatment and the Media.
The Mental  Health Care issues began with the case of O'Connor v. Donaldson, 422 U.S. 563 (1975), a landmark decision in mental health law.  The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends.  While this affirmed the  rights of those who  any consider "different" it also opened up the  doors for polticos from both parties to  empty out  State Mental Hospitals while slashing mental health budgets insuring  that those freed from  the hospital and those with problems in the  future would not receive the treatment needed to be able to integrate into society. This issue was recognized with President Carter signed the Mental Health Systems act of 1980 to create the system needed for treatment of these people.  When Ronald Reagan took office in 1981 he was responsible for slashing the Budget for this program despite signing massive spending increases and deficits into law, this underfunding has continued to today with BOTH parties being responsible!
The next issue with Mental Health was the "correction" of mental health laws to supposedly comply with O'Connor v Donaldson, when in fact what these laws did was insure that the State would not have to properly budget for treatment of those severely mentally ill by redefining what constituted a danger to oneself or others, this is what allows involuntary commitment to Mental Health Hospitals.  Here in CA all one has to do is look around us to see the result, daily we can see those whose grip on reality (or lack of) endangers themselves or others yet unless they are actively trying to harm themselves or others, there is no option for treatment and even when they reach the high threshold it is in many  if not most cases  treated as a purely criminal matter instead of the Medical issue it is or if they are committed for treatment they are stabilized and instead of being put into a functioning community mental health program that can guide them they are turned back onto  the  streets to begin  the  cycle anew.  Even families who are trying to help their family members get needed care get no help from the system  and must jump through sometimes impossible hoops in an attempt to get needed care (this is the picture emerging from CT) or in many cases are forced to turn loved ones out into the  streets and/or watch helplessly as  they  enter the Criminal Justice system due to the  lack of treatment Kelly Thomas and his death is a good example of this. 
The next item is the Media, prior to 1980s most media was a local affair and the National News was heard at 6 and 9 on your local station.  The 1980s brought us a national saturation of cable and satellite TV; now instead of the news being on twice in the evening we now had 24 hour news channels such as CNN relaying any all stories that would fill the program between commercials.  This also led to an explosion of available Stations creating the need for more and more stories that would grab the viewers' attention and make them watch.  With the  ever increasing  need to fill "airtime" we saw more and more "human Interest" stories on people who in an earlier decade would not be not be newsworthy if not for the need to fill that airtime.  It was at this time we first started seeing the occurrence of these atrocities. I can remember driving home from Tucson AZ and listening about the Atrocity at the  San Ysidro CA McDonalds at the hands of James  Huberty,  who had the day of  the  atrocity called a mental health center who did not return his call because they  did not fell he was a danger to himself or others- It is a sad testament when a unreturned phone call can be attributed to causing the  deaths of so many. Then along comes the internet and fame is just a click away and yet another massive expansion of  the  media  with more space to fill and quicker responses to any acts like those being  discussed.  This is where we see the increase not only in these acts but in the severity of the actions, since along with the increased coverage comes the media recognition which equates to these people as the fame and notoriety that they seek- remember all the foiled plots to shoot and blow up schools after Columbine, and this week?   The increased coverage helps trigger these people into acting and thus becoming "somebody!"
When one looks at the facts surrounding the acts we see that even though the tools-firearms- used to commit the atrocities have been around for a century or more it was not until the two issues I have mentioned came into being that we started to see the rise of these acts.  Now it would be easy to scream like many are doing and want the Press to be regulated or violates ones rights just because they might think be "odd," but that is wrong and goes against the principals set forth by our Founding Fathers and thus cannot be done.
Instead I propose some actual intelligent (as we have been shown there is no such thing as "common sense in elected officials) legislation and voluntary guidelines for the press to combat and prevent these atrocities, they are:
Restore and fully fund the Mental Health Systems act of 1980 to create the system and professionals needed for treatment of these people, this includes group homes and independent living centers that provide minimal but needed supervision to guide those with mental illness back into society and yes -gasp- Hospitals to provide treatment for those with severe mental health issues that are now on the streets.
Expand mental health clinics into Colleges, Universities and High Schools, for many the signs of Mental illness do not manifest until later teens or early twenties.
Change the mental health evaluation laws to allow for up to 30 days of evaluation as our Federal laws now do.
Make any evaluation be done by a Psychiatric Doctor, in to many states we have para-professionals or Family Practice MDs making these decisions and as skilled and caring they are this is still a medical issue requiring specialized evaluation from a Psychiatric Medical Doctor.
Change the involuntary commitment laws to allow families and advocates to be able to have easier access to involuntary commitment while at the same time allowing those who have successfully completed treatment a procedure to expunge the commitment form their records based on their successful recovery and ongoing treatment, after 60 months of success.
For the Press
When this type of incident occurs REFUSE to identify who committed the act,  or instead identify them and also use a disparaging and comical name, such as calling the Tucson Shooter "Uncle Fester" or the Aurora Shooter as "Side Show Bob"
Do not interview the doers Family friends etc.  Deny them the notoriety they crave.
If you do report on the doer do no human Interest things such as asking why?  Instead report just the facts of the case such as court appearances etc. 
Do report on every aspect on the Victims, it was the doers intent to destroy them to promote himself, show him that he is nothing and they are everything.
 Give it time before you play the political game, yes we know it will occur but this also emboldens these people since their act can "Change the course of the Nation" and once again bring them notoriety.
Will this stop these acts?  No but it will have a more positive effect on decreasing them than all of the ineffective gun laws being  pushed as we can see by  the rarity of these events prior to 1980. 
If we truly want to have a Conversation on steps to take here is the place to Start! 
 
 
Rant Off!
 
2012-12-20 08:31:14 PM  

Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.


The media needs someone to blame and its about to run short of guns and video games to point at (once their favorite politicians have acted they won't want to review those actions and say they failed).

We DO have a mental health problem that borders on being an epidemic. The spotlight has pointed here many times before.
I'm not sure how else we can expect the public to react. If they don't see these people as curable, they're going to ostracize them and it will make things worse.
 
2012-12-20 08:32:00 PM  

pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.


Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"
 
2012-12-20 08:32:17 PM  

Azlefty: Rant On!
 
ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...

To make readable

 
2012-12-20 08:32:25 PM  

CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.


Funny how the libs ignore it when it does not advanc e their agenda!
 
2012-12-20 08:33:08 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


I stand by what I said always, I think...
 
*)
 
2012-12-20 08:33:35 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.


It's pretty much the problem with respect to mass shootings. Sane people tend to kill when there's something concrete in it for them, or when someone's really, really pissed them off. That tends to mean single targets and targeting other adults.

People that go kill a bunch of strangers, the primary problem is the crazies.
 
2012-12-20 08:33:38 PM  

spamdog: Genevieve Marie: Their child is the one who'll deal with the stigma.

Well you said it yourself. There is a stigma attached.

I think what's actually going to be a cause of stigmatization are the symptoms of his actual mental illness such as violent outbursts, rather than someone googling his name.
I mean do you really think he's going to be getting a job where they do that kind of screening, given his mental condition?
I think you've got your priorities backwards here.


The parents are the only ones reporting his symptoms here. You're assuming that they're reporting them in a totally accurate way. They may be, but they also may not be. There's no way to get either the child's perspective or the perspective of any of his teachers or doctors.  That's kind of the problem with reporting a parent's perspective on their child's mental illness with names attached to the story and no journalistic checks to make sure the story is accurate and fair to the child being reported on.

Also, the child is only 13. There's still time to work with him, and hopefully get him to a place where he's stable enough to lead some sort of independent life. That effort will be more difficult though, if potential employers and others are able to google the name and see that his parents think he's a potential mass murderer.
 
2012-12-20 08:33:49 PM  

Azlefty: CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.

Funny how the libs ignore it when it does not advanc e their agenda!


Speak freely.
 
2012-12-20 08:34:00 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.
 
2012-12-20 08:35:28 PM  

ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"


Mostly, it would be nice to correct typos. Maybe the editing can be allowed if it collapses the original post (viewable by a button) and shows the update as such.
 
2012-12-20 08:35:41 PM  

pxlboy: ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"

Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.


It's actually one of the things I like about Fark; that you can't go back and change what you said.
 
2012-12-20 08:38:53 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.
 
And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).


THIS. THIS. And more of THIS.
 
2012-12-20 08:41:10 PM  

screechingbitermonkey: shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.

And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

THIS. THIS. And more of THIS.


But what if the British invade?
 
2012-12-20 08:41:44 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Also, the child is only 13. There's still time to work with him, and hopefully get him to a place where he's stable enough to lead some sort of independent life.


FTA:

But his parents said it takes too long to get help, and that drugs don't always help.

"We are running out of drugs to try, and he's only 13 years old," his mom said.

Insurance covered 20 of the 30 days at Pine Rest this year. Doctors want him to stay for 6 months, but at $1,000 or so a day, they can't afford it, they said.


I think these parents talking to the media about this is pretty much a cry for help. It's all very well and good to say that he could become a normal citizen, but the point of the parents talking to the media about it, is that he isn't getting the proper care that he needs in order for this to happen.

I really, really think you have your priorities backwards.
-Somebody- is going to have to start talking about this in order for it to be addressed.
 
2012-12-20 08:43:04 PM  
My jimmies have been rustled. I have a mental illness and I'm tired of being painted as a violent sociopath who will shoot everyone at work at the drop of a hat. I have good days and bad days, and on bad days I call in sick and sleep for 15 or 20 hours. The stigma has gotten worse.

Mental Healthcare needs to be changed. It takes me 2 weeks for an appointment to talk to someone, and it's expensive as well.
 
2012-12-20 08:44:39 PM  
We need to return to the old system of the mentally ill being in locked institutions away from everyone else.
 
2012-12-20 08:46:40 PM  

flamingboar: My jimmies have been rustled. I have a mental illness and I'm tired of being painted as a violent sociopath who will shoot everyone at work at the drop of a hat. I have good days and bad days, and on bad days I call in sick and sleep for 15 or 20 hours. The stigma has gotten worse.

Mental Healthcare needs to be changed. It takes me 2 weeks for an appointment to talk to someone, and it's expensive as well.


Let's not forget about the ridiculously-expensive medications and insurers only covering the generic (or a tiny fraction of the name brand). I usually have to shop two or three pharmacies before I find one that actually has mine in stock.
 
2012-12-20 08:47:25 PM  

Thisbymaster: We need to return to the old system of the mentally ill being in locked institutions away from everyone else.

 
You could paint a mile of fence with a brush that wide.
 
How's the view up there?
 
2012-12-20 08:48:31 PM  

Thisbymaster: We need to return to the old system of the mentally illguns being in locked institutionsarmories away from everyone else.

 
2012-12-20 08:48:42 PM  

spamdog: I really, really think you have your priorities backwards.
-Somebody- is going to have to start talking about this in order for it to be addressed.


You're making assumptions about my priorities that aren't totally accurate. I'm a big believer in reforming the mental health system. As a teenager, I suffered major depression and was diagnosed with several different things, including ADHD, and put on a lot of different medications. I came out of all of that treatment with a dependence on Adderall that it took a long time to shake and with a complete and total misdiagnosis.

As it turns out, I have a sleep disorder. For the last several years, the only medication I've had to take has been stuff to help me sleep, and I am completely and totally healthy otherwise. But when I was young? I was labelled as bipolar, as possibly as having "oppositional defiance" and I can't imagine what it would have done to my mental state to have my parents go on record as saying that I was a really bad kid. I wasn't- I was a really good kid that was basically constantly operating in a sleep deprived state.
 
Mental illness is incredibly complex and difficult to accurately diagnose and treat. This kid's parents probably are crying out for help, but they're doing it in a way that compromises their child's incredibly private medical information in a way that may result in him being unfairly labelled by those that know him for the rest of his life. That's a terrible thing to do, any way you look at it.

I understand these parents need help. I don't think talking to the media, particularly in this context, is an appropriate way  to try and obtain it.
 
2012-12-20 08:49:15 PM  
This parent has the responsibility to keep her kid away from society and her family. If "the system" is the only available option, so be it. Call the police at every infraction, take him to the hospital for every outburst. Document, complain, press charges. Do everything possible to take him out of the home. No person should live in daily fear of anyone, least of all a child. If the kid snaps and does hurt someone, mommy dearest knows that she had the responsibility to stop it from happening and she did nothing because she couldn't bring herself to it out of misplaced loyalty and affection. If the kid is that broken, there is no helping, only preventing.
 
2012-12-20 08:50:17 PM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


The AR15 is just kind of a toy for most of its owners. It can also be used for competitive shooting. It's very accurate, relatively light, light-recoiling, and easy to use. The 5.56mm or .223 is generally considered by hunters to be marginal for humanely dispatching anything larger than squirrels. Hollowpoints are because, in defensive situations, your best chance of getting an assailant quickly stopped is to blow a huge farking hole in them. Most people are not tolerant enough of recoil to want to use the hand-cannons that can do this with a simple round-nose lead projectile.
 
2012-12-20 08:51:00 PM  
Jesus, can we stop acting like it's one or the other? Can't the problem be guns AND crazy people?
 
2012-12-20 08:51:41 PM  

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


This, the standard needs to change from immediate risk to self and others to indeterminable risk. It's too hard to have someone locked up. The result is that many mentally unstable people end up homeless and without care. The effort to be humane has resulted in suffering instead.

Yes, I have actually worked with doctors to have someone committed before. It's too difficult and they keep hurting others, just not badly /enough/.
 
2012-12-20 08:57:40 PM  
Also, I'm very uncomfortable seeing the dialogue about mental illness focus on protecting "normal" people from the mentally ill rather than focus on helping the mentally ill get the help they need.
 
2012-12-20 08:59:39 PM  

CPennypacker: Funny how conservatives only started giving a shiat about mental health when they realized they could use it as a scapegoat to protect their pea shooters.


THIS
And it only lasted for about 36 hours, since now they've moved on to numerous other scapegoats: women, teachers unions, public education. I'm currently waiting for New Gingrich to propose his 'Corps of Untrained Darkie Teenage Boy Janitors With Glocks' as the salvation for everything.
 
2012-12-20 08:59:55 PM  

way south: Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.

The media needs someone to blame and its about to run short of guns and video games to point at (once their favorite politicians have acted they won't want to review those actions and say they failed).

We DO have a mental health problem that borders on being an epidemic. The spotlight has pointed here many times before.
I'm not sure how else we can expect the public to react. If they don't see these people as curable, they're going to ostracize them and it will make things worse.



And we know who to thank for this epidemic; conservatives and their short sighted policies. Backed, as always, by Big Money. Push it onto the States, eliminate our federal tax burden. Worked about as well for us as GOP ideas on banking regulation.


Perhaps what is most interesting about the change in policies of involuntary commitment is the coalition that helped bring it about: a combination of "law and order" conservatives, economic conservatives, and liberal groups that sought reform in the pr ovision of mental health services. But the policy shift had hardly anything at all to do with the mentally ill or the practitioners who treated them. It was designed to lower taxes and shift responsibility away from the federal government. Ironically then , the need for reform perceived by those involved and concerned with the mentally ill (practitioners and families) was co-opted by the interests of capital.
Link
 
2012-12-20 09:03:27 PM  

mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.


This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.
 
2012-12-20 09:04:15 PM  

Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!

I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."

I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.

Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on

Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms

The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years

The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle

The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906

The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893

The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911

The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935

The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963

In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns

In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"

All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


/I tried to read your whole rant, but really, i lost consciousness after the first thousand words.
 
2012-12-20 09:05:07 PM  

Jim_Callahan: TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.

It's pretty much the problem with respect to mass shootings. Sane people tend to kill when there's something concrete in it for them, or when someone's really, really pissed them off. That tends to mean single targets and targeting other adults.

People that go kill a bunch of strangers, the primary problem is the crazies.


There are about 10,000 Americans killed per year by firearms. Nothing makes me facepalm harder than when people want to focus the gun violence discussion entirely on the mass killings that take maybe 20 lives per year, less than the number generally killed by bee stings, deer (via auto-collision), lightning, or dogs.

Despite their over-representation in mass killings, the mentally ill do not commit violent crime at a rate above the national average.
 
2012-12-20 09:06:19 PM  

mgshamster: pxlboy: ProfessorOhki: pxlboy: Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?

Also this.

Just what we need, people being able to retroactively change their posts to claim "no, I never said that, see!?"

Fair enough. But if it's edited, there should be a mark or something prominent to show that the post was edited.

It's actually one of the things I like about Fark; that you can't go back and change what you said.


Good point. I suppose it is important to enshrine the most egregious examples of DERP on Fark for posterity. Unfortunately my posts have become a bit more incoherent since I recently started drinking whiskey. Yay whiskey!
 
I laughed too hard at this headline. We do need to start providing a safety net for families like these so they (or others) don't end up getting murdered by their own defective offspring. 
 
I know that loony-bins were closed decades ago for primarily economic reasons - and that there are horror-stories of people being committed against their will simply for being depressed or for being gay - but there are far too many mentally-ill homeless people who have nowhere to go and who simply can't care for themselves. That needs to change.
 
2012-12-20 09:07:39 PM  

atomic-age: mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.

This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.


Yeah, it was more addressing why we have such an aversion to it here.  Lots of older generations fear mental health, and want nothing to do with it, including funding it.
 
2012-12-20 09:09:51 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


He's 13, what are they supposed to do? There are no agencies for them to turn to and the public thinks they are crazy.

I'm all for letting all the non-violent drug offenders go free and having a place parents can turn too with crazy kids. Im also for then allowing them a drug detox program until they prove they aren't fit to live free.

Its obvious out nations approach to mental health and drugs is not working, let's correct that issue.
 
2012-12-20 09:12:31 PM  

mgshamster: atomic-age: mgshamster: CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.

Re: m-16. Because it's fun to shoot at a range; at least, that's why my gun loving friends tell me.  It is fun to shoot bigger guns, though.

Re: mental health.  I have no clue to the full extent of it, and am by no means an expert, but it may have something to do with the fact that only a few generations ago (like my great-grandparents), being labeled with a mental health problem would ruin you.  And women would be put in mental health facilities just for going through menopause (that happened to my great-great-grandmother, my mother tells me). It's a stigma you do not want.  It's only recently, such as the past 20 years, that we're seeing a better acceptance of mental health.  Younger generations are ok with getting therapy when it's needed.  I hear lots of stuff on the news about helping soldiers with PTSD.  We're just now actually starting to bring it back to an acceptable level in our culture.  It still has a long way to go, but I believe we're on the path to recovery.

This does not address the fact that it's virtually impossible to get mental health care unless you are actively homicidal or suicidal, and even then it is hard to get the care you need.

Yeah, it was more addressing ...


Yes, that's true. My father's grandmother was institutionalized, if his accounts bear truth, for little more than bearing a bastard child and not being particularly ashamed of this. Also, keeping to herself in a small cabin, hunting, fishing, and trapping to support herself. Her family was not in favor of her being in the institution, but she was put there by a judge and stayed put away for years.
 
2012-12-20 09:14:11 PM  
Would like to know if they tell potential neighbors about their little "issue"?
 
Thinking about it, could this have been the type of deal when the dad shot his son that was breaking into the relatives house - about 3 months ago?
 
2012-12-20 09:15:16 PM  
Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH! I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!

I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the
WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM!!!

Puny God.
 
2012-12-20 09:16:12 PM  
Excellent rant, Azlefty

My $0.02:

Television. It radically distorts our perception of reality. It amplifies our fear and distrust for fellow citizens. Over and over TV takes exceptional occurrences and repeats it over and over until everybody thinks its a norm.

- People have been unjustly committed to asylums occasionally in the past, and TV has repeated these stories until everybody thinks it's far more common than it really is. So we can't get public support for committing people who really need it.

- So many movies and TV shows about evil government plots that millions of people get paranoid enough to stock up on guns and ammo. I'm a big supporter of the 2nd amendment, but I simply don't understand people buying guns with huge clips. Do they expect to fight a huge civil war? What gave them this idea?

- Violence in our society was actually more common in the US in the past, but TV hyping present day violence non-stop in news and fiction makes people think it's exploding out of control when it actually isn't

- According to TV, ALL Priests are kiddie diddlers, ALL businessmen are crooked, ALL teenagers wearing trenchcoats are mass shooters, ALL camping trips will be interrupted by bears, aliens, marauding motorcycle clubs (take your pick), etc.

Present day TV is slowly poisoning our society. Nobody trusts anybody anymore, so conditioned and overstimulated we've become by TV. I really wish we could turn off TV for a whole year, just to see if things calm down a bit.
 
2012-12-20 09:18:27 PM  

leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.


Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.

Schizophrenia breaks down roughly into a rule of thirds. One third of schizophrenics have a single break, recover and never have problems again and it is usually under stress. One third are chronic schizophrenics but are controlled on current medications if they take them which is a rather big if given how bad they make patients and normal people feel. One third are not amenable to treatment with available methods and only institutionalization allows them to live in a humane fashion. Schizophrenics are technically adept if not logical and the worst school massacre by Kehoe in 1927 was committed with explosives and not guns. At Columbine Harris and Klebold also set explosives. You can make a very good quality plastic explosive out of nothing more exotic than salt and petroleum jelly

freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com
 
2012-12-20 09:20:18 PM  

OscarTamerz: I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.


And it amazes me that anyone would be comfortable seeing people unjustly deprived of all of their rights in exchange for gun rights for the majority.

Amazes me and makes me really, really sad.
 
hej
2012-12-20 09:22:41 PM  

zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.


We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.
 
2012-12-20 09:24:48 PM  
To lead
 
2012-12-20 09:35:57 PM  

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


Bet you'd have a different opinion if you were locked up in this situation. Defining and identifying "Crazy" is subjective as it gets. Better none locked up than an innocent and undeserving person cast into such a nightmare. I can't believe people think there is a violence free utopia just waiting to be legislated for us.
 
2012-12-20 09:39:32 PM  
FTA:

"They hope that their vigilance and their faith in God will keep him from doing something terrible. "

This is not going to end well.
 
2012-12-20 09:39:58 PM  

Max Awesome: *your*

/sigh. When is FARK going to join the twenty first century and let us edit our mistakes?


As soon as the TFers stop subbing because of the lack of an edit feature. So never.
 
2012-12-20 09:40:37 PM  

hej: zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.

We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.


Can't tell if serious or troll.
 
2012-12-20 09:42:22 PM  

OscarTamerz: leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.


Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental illness lock him up! He doesn't trust the government, mental illness! lock him up!

That's what "mental illness" is about. Getting rid of inconvenient people. The soviet union sent people to Siberia to help their mental illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Sov iet_Union

There's no such thing as "mental illness". An Illness is found with objective tests. There's a problem in the blood chemistry, there's a tumor in the brain, etc and so forth. Mental illness is subjective and that's what makes it useful to get rid of inconvenient people. It's also a useful place to dump patients whom doctors can't figure out what is wrong with them. Ever notice that many a physical disease is classified as "mental illness" until someone finally finds the physical problem?
 
2012-12-20 09:44:54 PM  

12349876: Belias: Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.

I would also expect the mom to be dead before she could get the gun. And if she EVER EVER EVER leaves it unlocked or the combination gets leaked...


Reading comprehension fail? Did the article claim the gun was to defend against their 13 year old son? The father is a concealed weapons instructor. They clearly don't keep the gun ready to shoot their son.

But bonus points for repeating a capitalized 'ever' three times... for great justice?
 
2012-12-20 09:46:38 PM  

leadmetal: OscarTamerz: leadmetal: OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.

You do understand how mental illness is traditionally been used? Family members who want another family member's stuff. Neighbor's and family members who don't like each other. Political opponents and dissidents. Then there is how a community just goes after unpopular and different people.

Yes, yes I do. Do you understand how mental illness works? People have demonstrable deficits in logic usually accompanied by auditory but not visual hallucinations. I'd much rather have a few people lose their walking around rights than everybody lose their 2nd amendment rights.

Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental i ...


This is the same crap as, "Well, ADD is just a contrivance, so they must all be contrivances with no basis in physiology whatsoever."

Neurochemical issues can't cause unusual or erratic behavior? Schizophrenia is just made up?
 
2012-12-20 09:50:23 PM  

Indubitably: Indubitably: To what

You cannot be serious?

Grrr.


anyone else really confused by this?
 
2012-12-20 09:52:25 PM  

Fark It: hej: zippie26: Somebody please explain to me how she's mistaken.

We've had a mass shooting that involved many children. You're now an idiot and an asshole if you keep a gun for protection.

Can't tell if serious or troll.


Poes law is kicking my ass these days. I can't help you there.

/the old "kids died, so I must be right" act is wearing kind of thin.
/kids die in lots of situations that people don't seem to care about preventing.
/they won't sacrifice a few bucks to feed an orphan but they will gladly offer up my rifle to themselves feel safer.
/collect all the crooks rifles first, maybe I'll be a believer.
 
2012-12-20 09:52:33 PM  
Is there anything left of Mr. Lanza's brain to study? Because if he shot himself in the heart or neck, his brain might be useful to the scientists. Maybe he had a wicked tumor or something ...
 
2012-12-20 09:54:09 PM  

leadmetal: There's no such thing as "mental illness".


Oh jesus. Jesus jumped up christ.
 
2012-12-20 09:59:14 PM  
NO.
PIGS


puzzles-games.eu

ARE THE PROBLEM
 
2012-12-20 10:06:47 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: No, mental illness is a problem. As is the easy availability of firearms. The two are only tangentially related.

The harping about mental illness is driven by conservatives rationalizing their violent crime enablement and liberals polishing their nonpartisan bona fides.



Ummm, no. Mental health professionals have been screaming about the mental health problem ever since JFK was shot. (Long story there, you can look it up if you want.) The two issues are not even tangentially related, as gun control (i.e. legislation) is only effective on those willing to be legislated to. In other words there will always be readily available guns for those who want them. When I was 16 I made a shootable .22 out of wood, screws, and rubber bands. Hell, you can make them with 3D printers now. Mental health is and always has been the only issue. We know this because it is the only common element to exist in every mass murder in this country's history. (Arguments have been made for every mass murder in history, but such claims can obviously not be proven.) But the fact remains that mental illness is the only commonality, and it appears prominently in every single one. It can not, logically speaking, be anything else.
 
2012-12-20 10:07:46 PM  

wildcardjack: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 320x400]

[media-files.gather.com image 550x412]
We have the solutions in case you reeeeaaallly want to use them.


Doctors these days just prescribe a cocktail that includes an epic amount of resperdone or risperdol along with just enough depakote not to give the poor kid liver failure. This basically keeps them too zoned out to cause any major harm.

Dont worry, I honestly cant see him getting into a gun safe even if he knew the combination. That doesnt mean he cant be dangerous, but he wont be heavily armed beyond a chainsaw or book of matches. He will be 18 in 3 years.

Welcome to our life.
 
2012-12-20 10:08:04 PM  

spamdog: leadmetal: There's no such thing as "mental illness".

Oh jesus. Jesus jumped up christ.


Yeah, I'm afraid that next he'll be telling us about Thetans.
 
2012-12-20 10:14:28 PM  
In September 1972 my parents, the Baltimore City Public Schools and the city's juvenile court put me in a locked State institution when I was nine and a half (9 1/2) years old. They let me out a year and a half later because of overcrowding.

I wasn't dangerous, just worryingly weird; e.g., a month before my 8th birthday, on my way home to get yelled at, grounded and spanked for being expelled from 3rd grade for "fighting" -- 3 bigger boys claimed I started it, the principal thought they bullied me for a good reason, and I'd already been suspended for "fighting" (read: getting beaten up) twice that year -- I stepped in front of a speeding car and wound up on my back in traction for three months with a steel pin through my leg and some innards missing.

If I'd ever made my parents afraid for their lives, instead of just being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," they'd have had the State lock me up till I turned 18. Who needs insurance? Let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Has the world changed so much since then?


Oh, by the way:

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. - Leviticus 20:9 (NIV)

and

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 King James Version (KJV)


And these people call themselves Christian. Sheesh.
 
2012-12-20 10:14:49 PM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Put him in the Marines.
 
2012-12-20 10:17:25 PM  
Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


I agree with you %100. Let's just get rid of all the guns!
 
2012-12-20 10:19:05 PM  

Genevieve Marie: whatshisname: This is pathetic. Unable to look themselves squarely in the face after a horrific tragedy, Americans instead start demonizing the mentally ill.

Pretty much, yea. It's starting to trend that way and it's making me very uncomfortable.


Well if you can't demonize groups, how will I claim to have 'done something' next election.
 
2012-12-20 10:19:55 PM  
Count me in as someone saved by the change in laws. My mother had me locked up when I was a teenager in one of these private hospitals, she worked for an insurance company and they paid everything. She had the Dr's tell me that they were going to keep me in there after I turned 18; I told them you can't, I'm not a threat to myself or anybody else and you know it, you can sign the release papers now or wait a week until I sign them myself.
I left that hospital homeless and sane, other than a little PTSD which I still deal with, which is far better than being involuntarily stuck in that place until I somehow became a good person again in my parents eyes.
Took until about 35 - 37 for that to happen, so it would have been one long stay.
 
2012-12-20 10:20:21 PM  
Tell you what, since we are having a rash of these "my kid is crazy and dangerous and nobody will do nuttin" stories from parents who may or may not be batshiat insane themselves but are violating their children's privacy:

1. Take away all their kiddies, change the names and adopt out all the normal ones. Give them therapy for a while since they must have PTSD from all this publicity, if nothing else.

2. Make the crazy kids wards of the state.

3. Spay & neuter the parents since they have no clue what a kid's civil rights ought to look like. Even if they have the legal right to tell these things it still aint right. I have the legal right to do a lot of things that aren't morally right.

4. Test the parents to find out if they made the little guy into a future cereal killer. Parents do things to their kids that defy description. Since mental illness runs in families maybe they aren't quite right either.

My parents refused to let one of my brothers speak until he was 5 years old and starting school. He was bothering them, so he wasn't allowed to talk at all, ever. It took the school board to make them teach the kid to talk. That's right, his vocal tone was annoying to them and he was a bothersome child, so he was not allowed to speak and did not learn to talk until he started school. Being able to speak is required in school.

Whether these kids are monsters or its on the parents, taking all the kids away will fix everything. Can't really see a downside here.

Did I miss anything?
 
2012-12-20 10:21:27 PM  

Balchinian: Mental health is and always has been the only issue.


You and your fellow gun-fanciers can keep on chanting that while the rest of us craft and pass more restrictive legislation.
 
2012-12-20 10:30:59 PM  

The One True TheDavid: In September 1972 my parents, the Baltimore City Public Schools and the city's juvenile court put me in a locked State institution when I was nine and a half (9 1/2) years old. They let me out a year and a half later because of overcrowding.
...
If I'd ever made my parents afraid for their lives, instead of just being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," they'd have had the State lock me up till I turned 18. Who needs insurance? Let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Has the world changed so much since then?


Yes it has.

We've been trying to tell you Reagan and the ACLU got rid of the capability to lock up people for being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," a few years after it happenned to you. Now, they have to live in fear of their lives, or pay $1K a day if they can find a spot in a private facility.

We can't lock kids up now until its too late. That's why these things happen. If we could lock up people for being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," there's be a lot more school kids alive right now.

Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.

 
2012-12-20 10:31:03 PM  
In the midst of this forum where the concensus is that the mental health "system" is completely ineffective and broken, I would just like to put in a good word for it, and for the medications we have available, and for the range of care and institutions we have. Sure, things could be a lot better, but they have been much, much worse in the past.

There are a lot of broken people, there are a lot of people who can't function well in society, there are a lot of holes in "the system", there are a lot of meds that don't work as well as we wish they could, especially without the side effects.

BUT....there are a lot of people who are functioning well in society because we do have a lot of medications that are wonderful and effective. A huge proportion of people in our society are taking those medications, and while I don't think it's good that they're used to that extent, I believe that much of the overuse is due to caution, to people taking them who don't really need them. But, I'd rather too many people were taking them than not enough were getting them who need them. Many of those meds can literally save peoples' lives; that certainly has been the case for me, and I'm so grateful that I needed them when they were available, and not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.

I also had potential access to a gun when I was in an extremely deep valley of depression, and I'm grateful that I told someone that I was worried that I might avail myself of that access; the therapist was able to remove me from the access, and so I did not end up killing myself.
 
2012-12-20 10:35:10 PM  

irreverend mother: Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.


Not enough pain and anguish in the world he could have suffered for what he did to the mentally ill.
 
2012-12-20 10:35:11 PM  

Huggermugger: In the midst of this forum where the concensus is that the mental health "system" is completely ineffective and broken, I would just like to put in a good word for it, and for the medications we have available, and for the range of care and institutions we have. Sure, things could be a lot better, but they have been much, much worse in the past.

There are a lot of broken people, there are a lot of people who can't function well in society, there are a lot of holes in "the system", there are a lot of meds that don't work as well as we wish they could, especially without the side effects.

BUT....there are a lot of people who are functioning well in society because we do have a lot of medications that are wonderful and effective. A huge proportion of people in our society are taking those medications, and while I don't think it's good that they're used to that extent, I believe that much of the overuse is due to caution, to people taking them who don't really need them. But, I'd rather too many people were taking them than not enough were getting them who need them. Many of those meds can literally save peoples' lives; that certainly has been the case for me, and I'm so grateful that I needed them when they were available, and not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.

I also had potential access to a gun when I was in an extremely deep valley of depression, and I'm grateful that I told someone that I was worried that I might avail myself of that access; the therapist was able to remove me from the access, and so I did not end up killing myself.


These are all very good observations and definitely need to be mentioned. Yes, the system has a lot of flaws and issues, but it's still much better than it used to be. Mental health care needs more funding and it needs to be accessible to all, and there need to be more residential facilities available to people that could be helped by them, but this is all still a lot better than mental health care has ever been before.
 
2012-12-20 10:36:03 PM  
I'm a gun owner and I frequent a few gun-related forums. It always unnerves me whenever someone refers to their collection as "toys" or refer to a gun as "she." Kind of creepy.
 
2012-12-20 10:38:00 PM  

orclover: irreverend mother: Personally, I find it only karma that Reagan was shot by a crazy man and ended out his days not knowing who he was, considering he gutted our mental health care.

Not enough pain and anguish in the world he could have suffered for what he did to the mentally ill.


I always do try to at least keep it in perspective that there were a lot of very, very good reasons to close most of the state run mental hospitals. There were some pretty terrible conditions in a lot of them and they were very poorly run.

The problem with that initiative is that it relied on the idea that community run and privately owned facilities would crop up to take up the slack, but it provided absolutely no funding or help for groups to make that happen. They threw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
2012-12-20 10:43:41 PM  
Here's a good first push in the right direction:

Step 1: Find all Aspies in the U.S. and relocate them to Haiti.
Step 2: Seal the border with Dominican Republic.
Step 3: Win.
 
2012-12-20 10:47:41 PM  
Maybe nothing needs to change, other than people turning off the damn tv and not freaking out and emotionally calling for drastic changes in law based on a single event. That's how stupid laws that diminish rights get put into place. Maybe you agree with this one, but what about the next law that takes YOUR rights because some rare sensationalistic event caused an outcry for the greater good?

Mass shootings are gruesome and disturbing, but rare, and violent crime in general is dropping.

There is not a shooter or a kiddie diddler waiting around every corner, as the media would have you believe.

Your risk of dying in a car wreck is far greater than being shot, so if you want to protect yourself and your family make sure to drive a safe car, watch out for bad drivers, and be a responsible driver yourself. Teach your kids to do the same.

I agree that mental health services need to be overhauled, but even that is unlikely to make much of a difference in these rare instances. No matter what, we can't prevent them all. Since the extremely violent people are like a needle in a haystack compared to the mentally ill that are no danger to anyone but themselves, trying to profile and guess who needs locked up is a pretty futile practice.
And I personally am not willing to quash the rights of millions, in hopes that we snag a few future shooters with them. The amount of people that ARE willing to go that route is disturbing.
 
2012-12-20 10:48:40 PM  

fat_free: Here's a good first push in the right direction:

Step 1: Find all Aspies in the U.S. and relocate them to Haiti.
Step 2: Seal the border with Dominican Republic.
Step 3: Win.


Well we could try fixing them, or discovering them prebirth and either treating or aborting them. But thats alot of work.

Lets ban a bunch of shiat and call it a day :)
 
2012-12-20 10:50:38 PM  

Genevieve Marie: These are all very good observations and definitely need to be mentioned. Yes, the system has a lot of flaws and issues, but it's still much better than it used to be. Mental health care needs more funding and it needs to be accessible to all, and there need to be more residential facilities available to people that could be helped by them, but this is all still a lot better than mental health care has ever been before.


One major adversity, though, is that there is still a huge stigma in terms of how medical insurance companies view mental health, which is as a financial loss, and they react by calling it a pre-existing condition, which is an automatic stain on the record of anyone who's ever been treated for mental health issues, and especially if you've been hospitalized. That's why getting rid of the concept of pre-existing conditions is so important, because you want people to avail themselves of mental health care when they need it, and not to avoid getting treatment because they're terrified that doing so will leave a huge blemish on them for the rest of their lives, and they won't be able to get insurance ever again.
 
2012-12-20 10:51:48 PM  

spamdog: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Maybe people should actually talk about mental illness publicly instead of pretending it doesn't exist and treating it like a leper colony.


It's a start. One thing people need to discuss openly and frequently is the intermittent nature of mental illness, and the difficulty of getting proper treatment. Even WITH adequate insurance and a loving family, this kid has been hospitalized for 30 days so far this year...because his insurance will only cover that much. The doctors think he needs six months of intensive in-patient treatment, but the insurance won't cover it and the parents can't afford it, so he's already doing the yo-yo treatment so many of us are familiar with: in till he gets better, then out till he gets worse, then in till he gets better, then out...

It takes up to six months to find out IF a medication is going to work at all (or not), and really, especially for a child, it needs to be done under controlled conditions, with nothing else that could impact the patient's mental condition (school, work, relationships, family, other stressors). With the Sandy Hook shooter, people are already going "How could that woman (the dead mom) let her son get out of control like that?!?" Well--this is the way. She couldn't afford the long-term inpatient care, medications take a very long time to assess, and it has to be done over and over again; while kids and teachers are not always understanding of why Junior is sometimes a zombie and sometimes The Flash at school and on the playground.

If more parents could acknowledge that they have problems too, maybe something would get done. But all these parents are out there thinking they're all alone, and then when something does happen, people point fingers: "How could YOU let your child get so out of hand?" and then everyone else shuts up even more.
 
2012-12-20 11:15:26 PM  

CygnusDarius: shower_in_my_socks: And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

B-b-b-but Second Amendment! And B. Hussein Obama killing our freedoms!.


You guys are more obsessed with guns than genuine gun-nuts. WTF?

/or maybe you've just never left you safe little suburban bubble and run into truly "will kill you because they think you're Elvis" crazies who have no place to go but the streets.
//sigh.
 
2012-12-20 11:18:36 PM  

Huggermugger: not 10 or 20 or 50 years ago when they wouldn't have been there.


Or if you had been unlucky enough to have been here:

http://vimeo.com/40433864  - Link goes to full video (entitled Titicus Follies); it's the only movie in the US banned from release for reasons other than obscenity.  NSFW (if I recall correctly)

Synopsis: Titicut Follies portrays the existence of occupants of Bridgewater, some of them catatonic, holed up in unlit cells, and only periodically washed. It also depicts inmates/patients required to strip naked publicly, force feeding, and indifference and bullying on the part of many of the institution's staff.  (from wiki)

Or here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resource s/ lobotomist-bedlam-1946/

Link goes to a PBS article about the Life Magazine 1946 expose on the dire state of mental asylums.
 
2012-12-20 11:19:30 PM  

Somaticasual: shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple " to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun." If this dipshiat had been armed with a kitchen knife or some shiatty "bombs" of the type that the Columbine @ssholes tried unsuccessfully to use, there wouldn't be 20 dead 6 year-olds in Newtown a week before Christmas. The guns are the problem, and everyone who isn't a biased gun nut can see it. The only question is what to do about it.

And if you have a crazy person in your house, you should not have any guns. Even in a safe, kids are crafty. I knew quite a few kids growing up who knew how to get into the family safe, and their parents had no farking clue. The fact that this wacko's mom TRAINED HIM to use a gun is so impossibly stupid (but legal! yay America!).

The worst school "shooting" happened in the 1920s, and it was a maniac who blew up a school using a bomb. And, that assault weapon in the newtown shooting? It was locked in his car, un-used. He shot people with something no reasonable gun law would have prevented.

Don't write when you've given up all your freedoms in the name of temporary safety.


Actually, the gun law did prevent him.

He had to steal those pistols because he couldn't buy them.

/just establishing a fact, not really going anywhere with it.
 
2012-12-20 11:22:01 PM  

Gabrielmot: mrlewish: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Why not? They are in charge of the minor and are in charge of all their medical decisions including the right to or not to talk about medical info.

Well, here's a scenario...

The kid *isn't* crazy. The parents are the ones who are batshiat insane. But either way, an international article with the kid's parents saying he's insane is going to make it pretty hard for him to get into a good school, or get a good job later in life isn't it?

I have a feeling we'll be seeing some easily won massive lawsuits from these kids for defamation of character against their parents in a few years.

/whether or not they are crazy.


Yes, there has been a worrying tendency in the past few days to equate "mental illness" with violence. The kid in the article suffers from some angry outbursts, and presumably anxiety and depression: emotional problems. These aren't the same as having a psychotic illness.

I sympathise with the person who said their sister with paranoid sz tried to drown their kid, but actually only a minority of people with schizophrenia are a danger to others like that. I did live with someone with very severe Paranoid Sz for a few years, who had a history of violence. What I noticed most in his case was that while he was living with me was the first time he had ever been ill and the people he was with didn't react by wanting him out of the house and in hospital asap. It was also the first time nobody got hurt. I had plenty of time to think about violence and mental illness while he was there - I guess the thing I noticed was that he had been stuck in a spiral of people expecting him to be violent and not listening to him and taking his emotions seriously. It seems this is much more likely with men or boys.

Calling for more controls over "mentally ill" people in general would probably hurt a lot of people who don't deserve it. In the UK at the moment we have new laws whereby people can be forcibly medicated in the community, which were originally brought in to deal with people with severe personality disorders - psychopaths, basically. What has actually happened is that a lot of completely harmless people are being forced to take medications that they don't want. If you think that sounds like a great idea, try a few months on one of the antipsychotics and see how you feel about it then.

Diagnoses of "bipolar" and "ADHD" seem particularly popular with american parents at the moment. I found this video recently which is about a project in California that was shut down after 23 years due to the state financial problems. Apparently they had 100% success with all the kids they treated. They seemed to credit their success on engagement with the kids - once the kids realised that they were listened to and taken seriously they improved. There is too much emphasis on medicalising these problems at the moment, and little serious research on behavioural methods.

Perhaps the system in America really does need to be improved for the sake of genuine psych patients who can't get admitted. But if you are looking for a magic solution to behavioural problems in a pill of any sort it just isn't going to happen. When people are locked up in secure hospitals for violent acts the main focus of their therapy is getting them to take responsibility for their actions. All meds can do is temporarily dope someone up so much that they can't really do anything much at all, and often the treatment that people get in psych hospitals makes their hostility and paranoia worse as well. It is always a BIG mistake for anyone's friends or relatives to think that once someone has been admitted they are "in the best place with people who will take care of them". Modern psych hospitals have very little time for people's innermost thoughts and feelings at all, and can be downright abusive.

Therapeutic means to stop over prescription of anti psychotic medications to children

This is a really big subject, much too big for a fark post. I just want to point out that a witch hunt on "mentally ill" people would probably wind up hurting a lot of people who don't deserve it.
 
2012-12-20 11:36:02 PM  
leadmetal:
[...]

Deficit in logic? Means not sharing the same beliefs and perceptions as the majority of the population. A popular deficit in logic is not agreeing with the government. (which oddly enough disagreement with government usually happens when a person follows logic!) Hallucinations aren't required. The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason. Furthermore what's a hallucination but a perception someone else doesn't share?

When the newest psychiatry manual comes out practically everyone will have some sort of mental illness. Why? Because it feeds a the therapeutic state. The alliance between government and "health care" for more and more profits.

Well, I for one am sick and tired of a bunch of farking conformists and collectivists who decide that they get to decide what "normal" is and then lock up or otherwise impair everyone who doesn't fit that mold. Oh, he doesn't have the same opinion as us, must be mental illness lock him up! He doesn't trust the government, mental illness! lock him up!


I'm with you except for for this: "The kid in this article isn't having hallucinations. He apparently gets extremely and uncontrollably and violently angry for no apparent reason."

Let's acknowledge that there's some kind of problem here. If all we have to go on is what we read in the paper we can't be sure what the problem is. Maybe he has a perfectly good reason, like maybe his parents are Satanic ritual pedophiles, or maybe he's gay or transsexual and/or much smarter than his parents and they hate him for it, or maybe they should look for an endocrine disorder or a tumor, maybe... I'm driven to support the underdog too, but something IS wrong somewhere.

Obviously, they should rule out a physical cause, and they should thoroughly investigate the family, the schools, etc. (Whoever "they" are.)

In any case, unless the parents are so vicious they should be locked up for a long time, it might be a good idea for everybody concerned for him to be in a controlled and safe environment with other kids like him, run by people who actually give a damn and can relate to the kids, until he learns to control himself so those around him can feel safe. (Assuming he's not dying of an inoperable brain tumor, in which case they should probably skip straight to allowing him to choose euthanasia -- in an ideal world anyway)

Keeping other people is not necessarily incompatible with human rights, freedom and dignity, once you broaden the picture to include the kid and those around him. There has to be a moral and effective way to protect both him and those around him or we humans truly are nothing but a cancer on the planet.

But yes, in general you are 100% correct: our society does have some kind of "immune response" that acts against misfits. (Like me, e.g.) Maybe it's socially constructed to support the current political/economic system, maybe it's a holdover from persecuting heretics in our society's Christian past, maybe there is a Collective Unconscious (or Hive Mind), or maybe Quatermass and the Pit (link) was based on a true story. Whatever. The problem then is that sometimes this "whatever" IS based on something, and there are some times when that "something" is a clear & pressing danger to other people's life, limb and human rights & dignities. We can't focus solely on him to the exclusion of the rest of the world. (Maybe he does enough of that himself already.)

In another alternative, one of our society's foundation myths holds that YHWH sent Cain into the wilderness: is there still a wilderness he can go to and a way to prepare him for it, if that's what he'd rather do? When you kill something and eat it that's called "hunting," and perhaps his anger could motivate him to learn to hunt effectively -- in the process sublimating his anger and destructive tendencies for a worthwhile purpose. Take me, for example: if I do have a 'brain chemistry problem" and if it is hereditary then the presence of "the frontier" might explain why my line didn't die out before I had myself sterilized without ever having offspring: when you couldn't get along with your family or neighbors you could go off by yourself with your knife, your fish hooks and your gun to live on what you could get. Perhaps my forefathers only really became a problem to others when we stopped roaming in the forest by ourselves or with our chosen few, and instead started getting locked up and/or forcibly sedated. Could it be that we're just too damn civilized these days, that our current laws discourage people from say traipsing around the Great Smokies with a .30-06?

Or maybe this problem is just too complicated for our fat lazy stupid American brains to deal with and he might as well be "stoned with stones that he may die." At least he'd be out of his misery before too long.

I hate to admit it but knee-jerking won't always do. Sometimes ya gotta give yourself a headache.
 
2012-12-20 11:48:08 PM  
He's right behnd me, isn't he?
 
2012-12-20 11:49:01 PM  

Azlefty: Rant On!

ENOUGH!  I AM TIRED OF THE SCREAMING FROM BOTH SIDES!
I am sick of the Right Screaming it is because we have taken God out of the Schools and Society, BS! If you are a true Christian you know where you faith is and resides and no it isn't having your snowflake say a prayer over the School PA system to show how "godly" they are.  Nor is it in insisting that YOUR FAITH be plastered all over the public square!  A very good friend of mine who is a Pastor told me, "If you have to tell people or make a spectacle to show them you are a Christian you are doing it wrong."
I am sick of the left blaming guns, a gun is inanimate object it is not good or evil, it does nothing until it is in the hands of a human. It is we humans that are the problem.
Now if you really give a damn about what happened then let's have a real discussion about this without the political posturing that has been going on
Let's start by looking at some facts about firearms
The Weapon types used have been around for over 100 years
The first semi auto "assault rifle" was the 1903 Mondragón Mexican battle rifle
The First magazine fed semi auto rifle was made by Winchester in 1905 , followed by  the  commercially successful Remington model 8 in 1906
The First Semi auto pistol was the c-93 Borchardt of 1893
The most popular semi auto pistol type is based on the 1911 Colt .45 ACP of -you guessed it- 1911
The first Hi Capacity magazine pistol was the Browning Hi Power of 1935
The "AR" type of Rifles such as the Bushmaster was introduced in 1963
In WW 1 the Axis powers used Machine Pistols and sub machine guns
In WW 2 Paratroopers were equipped with semi auto, collapsible stock hi capacity magazine fed M1 Carbines that also has a "pistol grip"
All of these weapons or variations of them were and are available on the Civilian Market for purchase, even the notorious "Chicago typewriter" the Thompson has been available in the semi auto version since before the 1934 gun control act that regulated the selec ...


This is one of the best posts I've ever seen.

/seriously.
//favorited.
 
2012-12-21 12:09:41 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Balchinian: Mental health is and always has been the only issue.

You and your fellow gun-fanciers can keep on chanting that while the rest of us craft and pass more restrictive legislation.


Based on what, emotion?? Sorry, but all the verifiable data indicates that stricter gun laws don't decrease crime, that prohibition only drives the otherwise legitimate use of whatever is prohibited underground where it can not be controlled or even monitored, and that (as I already stated) gun type, availability, and legislation have no causal connection to mass murder while mental illness does have it in every single case.

Laws in this country need to be based on legitimate data, not emotion, and not how righteous it makes those who propose a law look and feel. We are not running a damn daisy farm here, this is a civilization. Reason and rationality must prevail over emotion or we might as well disband now. It is hard, especially when things like this involve freaking 5 and 6 year olds, but we can not afford as a country to be ruled by emotions. If you can not set yours aside and examine the facts objectively, at least have the courtesy to step aside and let those who can take care of it. Dragging your bleeding heart all over the place is doing more harm than good.
 
2012-12-21 12:12:09 AM  
I am quite sure that if we still had state-run mental hospitals, this kid would have been in one. But those cost money, and conservatives are against that, so I'm sure they'll ban guns instead of bringing those back.
 
2012-12-21 12:15:29 AM  

Balchinian: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Balchinian: Mental health is and always has been the only issue.

You and your fellow gun-fanciers can keep on chanting that while the rest of us craft and pass more restrictive legislation.

Based on what, emotion?? Sorry, but all the verifiable data indicates that stricter gun laws don't decrease crime, that prohibition only drives the otherwise legitimate use of whatever is prohibited underground where it can not be controlled or even monitored, and that (as I already stated) gun type, availability, and legislation have no causal connection to mass murder while mental illness does have it in every single case.

Laws in this country need to be based on legitimate data, not emotion, and not how righteous it makes those who propose a law look and feel. We are not running a damn daisy farm here, this is a civilization. Reason and rationality must prevail over emotion or we might as well disband now. It is hard, especially when things like this involve freaking 5 and 6 year olds, but we can not afford as a country to be ruled by emotions. If you can not set yours aside and examine the facts objectively, at least have the courtesy to step aside and let those who can take care of it. Dragging your bleeding heart all over the place is doing more harm than good.


pysih.com
 
2012-12-21 12:19:06 AM  

JWideman: I am quite sure that if we still had state-run mental hospitals, this kid would have been in one. But those cost money, and conservatives are against that, so I'm sure they'll ban guns instead of bringing those back.


Who gives the politician more money? Gun lobbying groups or generic rich people who want tax cuts?
 
2012-12-21 12:49:58 AM  

Belias: Left out the part where they're in a safe. If the 13 year old is intent upon killing them, I expect cracking the safe would not be the path of least resistance.


Which is absolutely ironic and totally defeats her entire argument of having a gun for 'protection' against her 13 yr old psychopath son.
Someone like her is a 1000% better off NOT having a gun at all period.
 
2012-12-21 12:59:24 AM  

LDM90: Jesus, can we stop acting like it's one or the other? Can't the problem be guns AND crazy people?


It absolutely is but since it's more practical/effective to ban guns than it is to kill or lock up 'crazies' (assuming we can identify them to begin with) we have to choose the former despite the political firestorm and potential constitutional constraints.

Or we can do nothing and corporately accept that incidents like Newtown be a part of our modern society. It really is as simple as that if you really think about it.
 
2012-12-21 01:03:19 AM  
Somaticasual:And, that assault weapon in the newtown shooting? It was locked in his car, un-used. He shot people with something no reasonable gun law would have prevented.

He shot the kids with the AR15, one as many as 11 times, It was not locked in the trunk of his car.
 
2012-12-21 01:24:16 AM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


Maybe he needs to release all that pent up aggression. Get him laid!
 
2012-12-21 01:56:43 AM  
He said he has guns but keeps them locked in a safe where his son cannot get them.

He's signed his own death warrant.  They are stuck in some delusion if they believe that their kids won't ever go rifling through their things and find the key to that safe.
 
2012-12-21 01:58:54 AM  
Somaticasual:
The worst school "shooting" happened in the 1920s, and it was a maniac who blew up a school using a bomb. And, that assault weapon in the newtown shooting? It was locked in his car, un-used. He shot people with something no reasonable gun law would have prevented.

Don't write when you've given up all your freedoms in the name of temporary safety.

hmm last time I check bombs are banned in this country so not sure what your point is....
also you might want to get your news other than from FOX.

That mofo killed all the children WITH the AR-15!!! It was definitiely not locked and unused!
 
2012-12-21 02:07:26 AM  
It's amazing how fast threads devolve into arguments over gunz and which was the first school shooting and who is ultimately liable for the deaths...

when the discussion was mental illness and how we can treat it.

It's been like this since, well, forever. The minute we try to discuss in any kind of rational way how we can PREVENT mass shootings from happening in the first place, and why they happen, the argument almost immediately veers onto tangents about how we've always had gunz and how gunz should always be locked up and how gun lawz won't help and etc. etc. etc.

So here's a different question: Is it that talking about mental illness is just too scary for people and you'd rather pretend it doesn't exist; or is it that you don't want to correct the problem because it might come a little too close to home?
 
2012-12-21 02:12:06 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Is it that talking about mental illness is just too scary for people and you'd rather pretend it doesn't exist; or is it that you don't want to correct the problem because it might come a little too close to home?


I suspect it's more the fact that ANOTHER mother with a troubled son thinks it's just fine to keep guns in her house.
 
2012-12-21 02:21:14 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Gyrfalcon: Is it that talking about mental illness is just too scary for people and you'd rather pretend it doesn't exist; or is it that you don't want to correct the problem because it might come a little too close to home?

I suspect it's more the fact that ANOTHER mother with a troubled son thinks it's just fine to keep guns in her house.


So why do we need to talk about how the first school massacre was done in 1920 with a bomb? What's that got to do with anything going on today? I've seen that twice on this thread, and it just proves my point that what nobody wants to talk about is how prevalent mental illness is and how we need to start doing something about it.

No. Let's talk about gunz. We can argue about gunz! But talking about mental illness might get too real, and that would be bad, and worse, might even be ME.
 
2012-12-21 02:24:42 AM  
<b>(Sigh!!)</b>

Many of you know me for my rants, especially those concerning the Mental health System, which President Reagan slashed brutally under the excuse that the big State hospitals were no longer needed. We all knew he and congress did it to save billions during the economic crisis.

Without regard to the repercussions.

<i>See my last post on the subject:http://www.fark.com/comments/7488394/I-live-with-a-son-who-is -mentally -ill-I-love-my-son-But-he-terrifies-me</i>;

I worked in the mental health system and prior to that, in the medical field. I took college courses in both nursing and psychiatry.

Just as we were making <b>HUGE</b> strides in Mental Health, developing new treatments, dumping barbaric old ones, cutting the Patient's Bill Of Rights, educating the public to get past the 'Horror Hill' stigma Hollywood had created over mental illness and were getting folks to come in for treatment BEFORE their illnesses got too bad -- Congress slashed the budget
.
It has never recovered though other budgets for various program slashed then also have been fully re-funded. Since at least 1997, the mental health system has repeatedly had it's budget slashed, partially restored, then slashed again.

It's set us back nearly 100 years. Now, you get the best care only if you have the bucks. Before, we did it on a sliding scale. A lot of the homeless dumped from the state institutions never got better and actually got sicker causing much more problems
.
In the long run, the decision to close the state institutions and slash the cost us billions more than it saved. It still does and the amount is increasing as the mentally ill, especially among the homeless, get thrown in jail, given little to no treatment and then thrown out, with no backup plan, to go crazy again and wreck havoc among you, the citizens through theft, property damage, crimes and medical costs.

Now, Society has changed in the short time I've been alive. We've made huge technological strides comparable only to the other period of explosive advances: the Victorian Age. Actually, we've gone even faster and further.
Since I was born, our global population has tripled. With new technology comes new abuses -- such as the 'disposable years' which nearly covered our planet with trash. Companies pushed cars on the public until the highways snaked all over our country and became packed with traffic. That caused massive pollution. That also drained the finite fossil fuel reserves as we gobbled them down as if they would never run dry.

The internet opened the borders of nations many of us would only read about and now we can communicate nearly directly with people all over the globe or use street view Google Maps to seem like we're standing right there.

It also opened the door for abuse: from far too much information -- like how to build bombs, to hackers and pervs, the Lunatic Fringe, spammers and runaway advertising, information stealing and scams by the ton. The media seeks sensationalism for ratings, exaggerating stories and slanting them in various angles and we're hammered steadily with often conflicting and confusing information.

Our leaders slap together equally confusing and poorly thought out laws, lawyers find new ways to twist the truth and sue the krap out of everyone for everything, what was good is now bad and what was bad has an excuse. Loyalty is no longer treasured and a person is no longer treated like a valued being.

Everything seems to cause cancer. Leaving your house can get you killed, molested, poisoned, arrested or injured. Previously honorable businesses now find a hundred ways to skin you out of your cash while they invest in crude oil for profit, which in turn keeps gas prices high, which screws you over as expenses soar and the rich get massively richer.

TV shows how the history books lied, challenge and investigate religion, destroy our heroes, destroy our traditions and the difference between good and bad begins to blur.

Everyone has rights -- even if those rights infringe on your rights. Kids acting like kids can be expelled, tossed in jail and branded a sexual offender for life
.
Now is when we need a fully functional, actively developing Mental Health Care System. We need to once again make it easy for people to get help without going bankrupt. Hammered by confusing and conflicting social morals, laws and actions with every nutcase pointing out how deadly everything is and the economy stressing the public -- people are going to crack.

Reaganonomics wiped out the major progress we had in helping people back from the edge. Congress throws money at special interest groups and corrupt bills, but ignores the Mental Health System.

Anyone in my fields, with half a brain and an understanding of society would have seen this coming. Especially those who are supposed to guide us towards our future, who we elect to keep us safe and to use wisdom we don't have.

You don't turn a couple of hundred thousand mentally ill people loose without a support system, especially if many have been institutionalized for decades and <b>not</b> see the potential problems there and in the near future.
We can't reclaim most of the old institutions. They were left to rot and be vandalized. (GIS abandoned mental institutions.) The cost to restore them would be huge. We can establish limited care clinics and the new programs we were building in the middle 70's.

Then, we can rebuild the major institutions.

Society has changed several times since I was a kid. From trusting and healthy to suspicious, greedy and fat. Greed is rewarded.

It's time you all took a stand.

I still recall the first mass murderer in the bell tower of a college. That shocked the nation. It also helped bring reform to the Mental Health System.

So, how many more will die as you all sit about twiddling your thumbs? Not just in school shootings, but under bridges from neglect, getting killed over a scrap of food or hearing voices telling them to do bad things.

We seem to have a Pedophile problem. To handle it we now ruin their lives forever, even if innocent, cast them onto the outskirts of society so they can barely live, treat them like dirt or the lowest form of scum and create laws which can get our kids branded as sex offenders.

Prior to this, pedophiles left their victims alive most of the time. After the tar and feather mentality spread, the majority started killing them to try and not get caught because of the consequences.

So clamping down so strictly was a good idea? Maybe trying to understand the drive that makes a pedophile do what they do, risking everything should be studied and, maybe a cure found.

Instead, we're ruining innocent lives and getting a lot of kids killed who, years back, would have survived, traumatized, but alive.

We once had about the best Mental Health System in the world. Now we're like number 20.

<b><u>Do something about it!</u></b>
 
2012-12-21 02:25:32 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Gyrfalcon: Is it that talking about mental illness is just too scary for people and you'd rather pretend it doesn't exist; or is it that you don't want to correct the problem because it might come a little too close to home?

I suspect it's more the fact that ANOTHER mother with a troubled son thinks it's just fine to keep guns in her house.

So why do we need to talk about how the first school massacre was done in 1920 with a bomb? What's that got to do with anything going on today? I've seen that twice on this thread, and it just proves my point that what nobody wants to talk about is how prevalent mental illness is and how we need to start doing something about it.

No. Let's talk about gunz. We can argue about gunz! But talking about mental illness might get too real, and that would be bad, and worse, might even be ME.


Actually, I don't think that's it. I actually think it's that most people DO recognize that mental illness very rarely leads to violent psychotic episodes and that the vast majority of people with a mental illness are more likely to be harmed themselves than to cause harm to others.
 
2012-12-21 02:33:18 AM  
Oh, and for what it's worth, I totally agree with Rik01's assessments on the mental health care system. I just don't necessarily agree with how that's been forced into the narrative on the Sandy Hook shooting. We still know very little about the killer, his history, and the events leading up to the shooting. This happened with Columbine- the media forced a narrative so we could learn a lesson from it, and it turned out to be a completely and totally false narrative- the bullying stories, even the idea that the two shooters were equal partners.

I'm very, very wary of seeing that happen again- of having people decide what the lesson should be before we know the story. And I'm VERY uncomfortable with seeing this shooting used as a reason why it should be easier to involuntarily commit people.... the potential for abuse and civil rights violations is so, so high when it comes to involuntary commitment. There's a good reason why it's so difficult to do.
 
2012-12-21 03:10:31 AM  
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2012-12-21 04:15:34 AM  
Liberals already believe anyone who owns a gun, wants to own a gun or supports gun ownership is mentally ill, so it's kind of hard to have any sort of meaningful discussion about the role of mental illness on gun violence. To them possessing a firearm makes you a loon automatically.
 
2012-12-21 04:27:46 AM  

CygnusDarius: pxlboy: CygnusDarius: Maybe, just maybe, if Americans stop glorifying guns, and death, and combat, and the army, and focused more on the well-being of nation (both in body and in mind), it would be great.

Movies and video games are not the cause, they are the by-product of a recent embellishment of Death, while forsaking health.

Healthcare for the masses is bad, but killing brown people is good.

Sadly, this. Also, I can understand getting a handgun to protect yourself and those around you, I can understand getting a hunting rifle and a shotgun to hunt, but why the hell do you need an m-15, or hollow-points (ok, maybe this one might work against large game, like hogs)?.

And, by the same token, why the US keeps cutting funds on mental health?.


Well how about we talk about reality for a moment. The 2nd amendment is an interesting little beast. It guarantees the right of individuals to KEEP and BEAR (own and use) arms. It does so for the purpose of allowing the state/federal government/locality to form a well regulated militia. One does not exclude the other but they are meant to go together. It mentions nothing about hunting, or home defense, but one can reasonably say that those things would be a side benefit of being able to keep and bear said arms.

The benefit of the state to having individuals keep and bear them...is that the state doesn't have the burden of providing its citizen soldiers with basic infantry (and cavalry) weapons. It is never really defined what "well regulated" entails, but one would assume a command structure, method of communication, regular training and other normal activities. The reason for this decentralized structure was due to the slow speed of communications at the time of the founding and allowed for a rapid formation of a fighting force in the local area.

So the idea is that you have the right to keep and bear these arms as an individual with the idea in mind that if war breaks out you would sign right up and participate to the best of your abilities. Not that you are REQUIRED to be in a militia. Also it would indicate that since muskets were the major infantry weapon of the ages in the west (WMD of the day if you will), that any and all rifles today would fall under those same guidelines.

So any idiot who says, "you don't need that for hunting!" is an idiot. The same or similar idiot might say "You don't need that for home defense/protecting yourself!"

They are correct but still wrong because neither of those arguments are made by the constitution itself. If they can state that "You don't need that to kill the enemies of the United States." then uhhh ok...try making that argument.

"But Mr. Boedy you don't own a TANK DO YOU?!?"

No you moron I can't afford one, nor the maintenance, nor the fuel and ammunition. Most individuals of the day couldn't afford a cannon either and so didn't own one. They didn't have the horses or carts to transport them nor the amount of gunpowder or ammunition. So logistically speaking it is simply impractical rather than illegal. I'm fine with that. It is practical however to own an assault rifle. Cheap ammunition, field stripping and cleaning is easy, and storage is obtainable by anyone who can afford that kind of weapon anyhow.

And yes you should background check the hell out of anyone trying to buy these, multiple letters of character, licensing, training and all that are fine as an owner of any weapon should be a responsible owner. Due process is a thing that most people forget about and the background check/licensing and training process should be considered part of the legal manner in which you obtain a weapon within your rights.

All rights are subject to due process by the way. The right to vote and own firearms can be taken away...via due process but not without. Just remember this kiddies.
 
2012-12-21 04:28:35 AM  

Moonlightfox: Liberals already believe anyone who owns a gun, wants to own a gun or supports gun ownership is mentally ill, so it's kind of hard to have any sort of meaningful discussion about the role of mental illness on gun violence. To them possessing a firearm makes you a loon automatically.


irl i'm a liberal having a conversation with a sane gun owner right now.
 
2012-12-21 04:35:19 AM  

TDBoedy: So any idiot who says, "you don't need that for hunting!" is an idiot. The same or similar idiot might say "You don't need that for home defense/protecting yourself!"


I think most of us understand that what you need those for is shooting American soldiers.
 
2012-12-21 05:15:43 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: TDBoedy: So any idiot who says, "you don't need that for hunting!" is an idiot. The same or similar idiot might say "You don't need that for home defense/protecting yourself!"

I think most of us understand that what you need those for is shooting American soldiers.


you're a terrible troll
1/10
 
2012-12-21 06:34:24 AM  

TDBoedy: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: TDBoedy: So any idiot who says, "you don't need that for hunting!" is an idiot. The same or similar idiot might say "You don't need that for home defense/protecting yourself!"

I think most of us understand that what you need those for is shooting American soldiers.

you're a terrible troll
1/10


My bad. I should've said, "for defense from tyranny."
 
2012-12-21 06:46:24 AM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: TDBoedy: Nina_Hartley's_Ass: TDBoedy: So any idiot who says, "you don't need that for hunting!" is an idiot. The same or similar idiot might say "You don't need that for home defense/protecting yourself!"

I think most of us understand that what you need those for is shooting American soldiers.

you're a terrible troll
1/10

My bad. I should've said, "for defense from tyranny."


Or home defense.
Most guns sold are for self protection.

/not that you aren't trolling.
 
2012-12-21 08:08:18 AM  
Newsflash: Baseline primate behavior isn't rational.
 
2012-12-21 09:05:37 AM  

pxlboy: Oh, look...another gun control thread.

/bails


we should ban gun control threads
 
2012-12-21 09:20:29 AM  
Huggermugger

Perhaps too late but there are some language issues in your post, which is common. You use the words broken and function when talking about mental illness. People with mental illness are not broken, they are sick, and while functioning is noble it is not everything to life. Maybe these are merely figures of speech, but they still communicate a meaning. Sick people need care, not fixing.
 
2012-12-21 09:45:28 AM  
How would they know if the mental care needs fixing? Their child is not committed to a mental hospital, ergo they have not used the mental care that is available.

The level of stupid in these people is astounding. If you have to buy a gun in case you have to shoot your kid, TAKE HIM TO THE farkING LOONY BIN MORON.
 
2012-12-21 09:46:13 AM  

syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?


You use the mental care facilities available. Commit him to a mental hospital. Parents are too stupid to figure that out I guess.
 
2012-12-21 09:47:24 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: Hope she's a responsible gun owner and hide's it somewhere smart like the flour bowl or in plain site.


Hopefully she knows how to spell sight correctly.

/derp
 
2012-12-21 09:49:32 AM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


The new trend of parents going on record saying they know their kid is retarded batshiat crazy and are doing nothing about it does not sit well with me at all.

Why haven't they taken the kid to the loony bin? They obviously know nothing about current health care for wackjobs because they haven't bothered to use it.
 
2012-12-21 09:51:38 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: There have always been crazy people, and there will always be crazy people. There is no simple solution to improve mental healthcare. The real problem here is "crazy got a gun."


The problem is that crazy isn't in a high security mental facility receiving routine electroshock anymore.
 
2012-12-21 09:52:39 AM  

spamdog: Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.

Maybe people should actually talk about mental illness publicly instead of pretending it doesn't exist and treating it like a leper colony.


Huh? Do you even know what a leper colony is? If we separated all the crazy people from the population (which is what a leper colony is) then we would have zero problems with mental illness.
 
2012-12-21 10:39:03 AM  

The One True TheDavid:
If I'd ever made my parents afraid for their lives, instead of just being "ungovernable" and "emotionally disturbed," they'd have had the State lock me up till I turned 18. Who needs insurance? Let the taxpayers foot the bill.

Has the world changed so much since then.


I have a cousin who was an unruly child. He was in and out of juvenile facilities as a teen and he is in prison today. His parents were strict and abusive to him and his sister. She turned out well but he did not. Seeing how things went with my extended family, I would just like to know how much of this kid's problem might have been started by his parents.
 
2012-12-21 11:17:51 AM  

Moonlightfox: Liberals already believe anyone who owns a gun, wants to own a gun or supports gun ownership is mentally ill, so it's kind of hard to have any sort of meaningful discussion about the role of mental illness on gun violence. To them possessing a firearm makes you a loon automatically.


I see you're open to conversation and not at all paranoid yourself...
 
2012-12-21 11:59:42 AM  

Bullseyed: syrynxx: What do you do with a child like that?  Do nothing until he snaps and kills someone?

You use the mental care facilities available. Commit him to a mental hospital. Parents are too stupid to figure that out I guess.


The costs of long term institutionilization are skyhigh and no insurance pays for it. Also, you simply can't do that until they are a danger to others. Nobody believed Lanza was a danger to others, not even the psychologist he was seeing regularly.
 
2012-12-21 01:02:53 PM  

LDM90: Jesus, can we stop acting like it's one or the other? Can't the problem be guns AND crazy people?


That's crazy talk; here's your gun.
 
2012-12-21 03:01:43 PM  

OscarTamerz: Mental illness isn't the problem, the fact that the ACLU brought a series of suits saying that you can't lock people up for just being crazy you have to prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. If the police had dropped by the Lanzas that morning before he shot his mother there is nothing they could have done to save her or the kids at that school.


it isnt an either-or solution, you should not have to choose between locking the mentally Ill in jail and letting them run loose. That is the problem right now.
there are varying degrees of need for intervention. the legal litmus test for forcibly locking someone up (having to prove they are a danger to themselves or others) is still good in my book, but there needs to be something for that in-between, something that still protects the rights of the mentally ill while protecting themselves, the public, and hopefully improving their condition with the least amount of side effects.
are you against this? i'm tired of hearing "kill them" or "lock them up" even though i know it's probably in jest. What I fear is an over-reaction that will erode the rights of those deemed "mentally ill" by stupid incompetent psychs
 
2012-12-21 03:37:12 PM  

leadmetal: nconvenient people. The soviet union sent people to Siberia to help their mental illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Sov iet_Union

There's no such thing as "mental illness". An Illness is found with objective tests. There's a problem in the blood chemistry, there's a tumor in the brain, etc and so forth. Mental illness is subjective and that's what makes it useful to get rid of inconvenient people. It's also a useful place to dump patients whom doctors can't figure out what is wrong with them. Ever notice that many a physical disease is classified as "mental illness" until someone finally



this
this
this

/this
 
2012-12-21 07:32:02 PM  

Panatheist: leadmetal: nconvenient people. The soviet union sent people to Siberia to help their mental illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Sov iet_Union

There's no such thing as "mental illness". An Illness is found with objective tests. There's a problem in the blood chemistry, there's a tumor in the brain, etc and so forth. Mental illness is subjective and that's what makes it useful to get rid of inconvenient people. It's also a useful place to dump patients whom doctors can't figure out what is wrong with them. Ever notice that many a physical disease is classified as "mental illness" until someone finally


this
this
this

/this


oh. you know he just had a demon.
 
2012-12-21 09:21:38 PM  

Genevieve Marie: This new trend of parents going on the record and exposing the confidential and highly sensitive medical information of their minor children does not sit well with me at all.


It is worth examining the motivation behind the trend.
 
2012-12-22 09:31:20 AM  

leadmetal: There's no such thing as "mental illness". An Illness is found with objective tests. There's a problem in the blood chemistry, there's a tumor in the brain, etc and so forth. Mental illness is subjective and that's what makes it useful to get rid of inconvenient people. It's also a useful place to dump patients whom doctors can't figure out what is wrong with them. Ever notice that many a physical disease is classified as "mental illness" until someone finally finds the physical problem?


actually there is such a thing as "mental illness" though most of what you're saying is correct.

darn that free will

/politics doesn't help much either
 
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