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(Hawaii Reporter)   A Hawaiian High School Orchestra raises $30,000 for doctors in Africa, but people from a church worked on the setup? Never fear, The First Amendment FUD Brigade is there to make sure this atrocity doesn't happen again   (hawaiireporter.com) divider line 80
    More: Sick, First Amendment, arrests, Department of Transportation, Hawaii, Christian churches, HPD, new instruments  
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9431 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-20 01:01:52 PM
11 votes:
I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.
2012-12-20 03:13:07 PM
9 votes:
It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.
2012-12-20 03:12:15 PM
8 votes:
I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.
2012-12-20 01:09:04 PM
6 votes:
What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this. The school gets some regular volunteers. The charity gets $60,000 a year.
 
Let's put this to the Lemon test
 
1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
 
It is setting up a holiday concert for it's choral group. Perfectly secular.
 
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
 
As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.
 
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
 
A single event that is completely run by the school district and only gets some help from parishioners does not entangle excessively.
 
Seems like a pass to me.
2012-12-20 02:36:45 PM
5 votes:
*reads more of TFA*

I donno...Kahle may have had strong arguments for some of those things, and there's nothing wrong with due diligence, but WOW does he go overboard. The First Amendment guarantees that government can't press a religion (or religion in general) on its populace. Church members that *happen* to be volunteering at a school-organized event does not qualify.

And I'm all for someone not wanting to believe in God. I can tolerate someone thinking those who believe in God are morons. But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against. And I f*cking HATE hypocrites more than anything else on the planet. Even more than the Beeb. And that's saying a lot.

What I'd really like to see is this guy and the WBC people at the same rally. That would be fun to watch.
2012-12-20 02:30:04 PM
5 votes:
FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*
2012-12-20 03:13:37 PM
4 votes:
"The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "
 
I think that 'splains it better
2012-12-20 02:45:52 PM
4 votes:
And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.
2012-12-20 04:23:57 PM
3 votes:
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Actively eschewing stamp collecting whilst berating those who happen to collect stamps is a hobby.

A piss-poor hobby, but a hobby regardless.
2012-12-20 04:20:03 PM
3 votes:

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.

More info:

A notation of their front-group activities
Documentation showing their longterm links with YWAM (although YWAM claims it's a "separate ministry" now, there are still extremely close links--moreso than with (say) Focus on the Family and Family Research Council; Mercy Ships was "split" largely after antidominionist researchers pointed out they were a front of the (deservedly infamous) YWAM)
None other than the form 990 of "YWAM Mercy Ships" from 2010--which is d/b/a "Mercy Ships International", a subsidiary of the main Mercy Ships operation per the main form 990 from the same year--and both showing very much that it's still a de facto YWAM frontgroup, and that both divisions still share the board of directors.

(BTW--that last one is why dominionists are fighting very, very hard to keep from closing the "church loophole" allowing dominionist megachurches to get out of filing a form 990 like other not-for-profit orgs. What's in those form 990s is sometimes very, very damning indeed.)

As for its parent org:

More documentation of YWAM/Mercy Ships links
Documentation from conservative Christian evangelical on YWAM's extensive NAR linkage
A whole metric shiat-ton of articles from Talk to Action re the extensive NAR linkage of YWAM (including articles by Bruce Wilson and Rachel Tabachnick, some of the top secular researchers on NAR-linked dominionists)
More info re YWAM including its involvement in the "Path to 9/11" smear-job "documentary"
Notes from an exit counselor who considers YWAM a coercive religious group--including notes on Matthew Murray, a former YWAM member who started having a psychotic manifestation of PTSD while at a YWAM facility and who eventually had a full mental breakdown which ended in a murder-suicide
The particular chapter of Max Blumenthal's "Republican Gomorrah" dealing with Murray, including his involvement with YWAM and beginning of severe psychiatric injury
Links from another exit counselor who considers YWAM a group of concern (including a link to an ex-YWAM walkaway forum)
Blog of an ex-YWAM member, with links to ex-YWAM walkaway forums

In fact, YWAM is one of the few "Bible-based" coercive religious groups (along with the ever-rebranding Maranatha/Every Nation/Morning Star International/etc. and a general increasing awareness of the NAR in general having coercive tendencies--especially in the Assemblies of God, of which YWAM is one of a veritable hydra of fronts--ever since it went blatantly NARasitic, the Assemblies have about as many fronts as the Moonies). And--surprise surprise surprise--pretty much the de facto headquarters of YWAM is in Hawaii (per their form 990).
2012-12-20 04:07:06 PM
3 votes:

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.


The one aggravation I have had with associating myself with atheists is this willingness to disassociate themselves from other atheists because the press is bad. Sorry, but this man did nothing wrong. To completely ignore the obvious bias of this piece to make yourself appear to believers as "one of the good atheists" does far worse to the image of atheists in general than this piece could.

The irreligious are no less prone to being jerks, but we aren't jerks for noting religious entanglement no matter how supposedly traditional.
2012-12-20 04:04:26 PM
3 votes:
For those interested, here is an interview with Mitch Kahle from our mainstream newspaper, the Star-Advertiser. He's not quite the bogey man he sounds like in the linked article. I especially like his answer regarding his "attacks on Christianity." The Star-Advertiser is paywalled so here goes:

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591

"Kahle's latest effort to put a wall between state and church involved acting to prevent the entanglement of Moanalua High School's orchestra with the Christian group New Hope Oahu in presenting a charity concert earlier this month.

Other newsworthy cases included prompting the U.S. Army to remove a huge cross at Schofield Barracks, in 1997, and, starting last year, getting the state Senate to dispense with prayers and invocations at the start of its sessions.

In recognition of his work through the years, Kahle was named "free thinker of the year" in 2011 by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national organization that Kahle occasionally works with.

Kahle also is passionate about achieving full civil rights for homosexuals -- which he has campaigned for since even before he took on his first state-church challenge. In recognition of his advocacy for gay rights through the years, he was named one of several grand marshalls for this year's Honolulu Gay Rights Parade.

Kahle, 50, has been in Hawaii since 1992. He was born and raised in Michigan, where he graduated from Jonesville High School. He also attended Boston University and studied at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. He lives in downtown Honolulu with his significant other of the last 25 years, Holly Huber, with whom he has a small business involved in "everything from data base development to video production."

"We're basically free-lancers," he said. "When you register your business in Honolulu -- when you do a 'DBA,' as they call it -- they ask you what your business is, and I remember putting down 'Anything legal,' and that's kind of the way it's turned out."

QUESTION: How did this latest public action of yours (involving the Moanalua High School orchestra and New Hope Oahu) come about? Was that inadvertent or do you go looking for these things?

ANSWER: We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church.

Q: How long have you been doing this?

A: We've been active here in Hawaii in state-church issues since 1997. Before that, going back even earlier, I was involved, and still am involved, in the gay rights movement. But our first case here, we were contacted by a Vietnam veteran who was upset about the large cross that was at Kolekole Pass. And that was really what sort of kick-started our advocacy here, because we filed a lawsuit in federal court and 45 days later the Army pulled the cross down. So that was kind of the start of things.

Q: What drove you to get into this kind of activity?

A: Well, I've always felt uneasy about the mingling of religion and government, ... and I noticed that it was also making other people uncomfortable. So when a Vietnam veteran ... comes to you and says he doesn't want this cross on U.S. Army property, I was willing to take up the challenge for him.

And, basically, that's what it's been all along. ... We're able to help people because we can bring things to the public where someone else might feel intimidated or they might feel like they would be discriminated against.

Q: Why has the gay rights issue been so important for you?

A: Well, the injustice of it. The idea that we would deny an entire class of citizens in our society the rights and benefits of marriage is absurd to me. I have always felt that it is a grave injustice ... , but it looks like we're finally going to see that change.

Q: Most of your state-church challenges are related to the Christian religion? Why is that?

A: I don't know if I can put this in an elegant sound bite for you, but basically only the government can violate the Constitution. Individuals and churches, we can't violate the Constitution. Only the government can. And (in the United States) the government virtually all the time endorses Christianity over other religions.

Q: Why do you think there is a need to keep religion and government separate?

A: Well, that's really the only way we can all have freedom of conscience.

Humans have a right to believe any idea they want, whether it's a legitimate idea or an absurd idea. What we can't have is the government deciding what ideas are appropriate and what ideas are not. And in the case of religion, if we have the government saying Christianity is an appropriate religion but Scientology is not -- whatever anyone might think of Scientology -- what that does is it inhibits the freedom of the citizens.

The irony of the separation of state and church is that the United States is one of the most religious of modern nations on Earth, and it is because we keep religion out of government. The separation of church and state is a very misunderstood legal precedent.

Q: Some of our letter writers think you're pulling a fast one, saying, "Where does it say that in the Constitution?"

A: Right. The word privacy doesn't appear in the Constitution, but I don't think anybody would want to say that we don't have privacy rights. The separation of church and state was a metaphor created by Thomas Jefferson when he wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the Congregationalists being endorsed by the government. They used to have established churches, as you know, and Jefferson simply coined the metaphor "the wall of separation between church and state." That's where it comes from.

Q: In general, do you think courts are a better way to confront a particular case than via legislative bodies?

A: Traditionally the courts have been where this has been settled. I mean, even if we go back to the 1960s, to Engel v. Vitale, which is the case that made it unconstitutional for public schools to have morning prayers. Or you go forward to the cases that made creationism not allowed to be taught in high school science curriculum. These types of cases are really what has become what we call the separation of state and church today. ... And these are all, really, I think when you add all these up over about 40 years, the precedent that establishes what is the separation of state and church.

Q: Have you ever considered taking on tax exemptions for churches? Is that something that galls you at all?

A: It does bother me a lot. I do not believe that churches should be tax-exempt. I believe that they should be treated like any other sort of private club. Churches use the same kind of services that anyone else does. They have fire protection, police protection, water and sewer, roads connecting their churches to parishioners. I think that they should pay taxes like anyone else.

Q: Regarding that episode at the Legislature, in 2010, it was determined that you were assaulted, right?

A: Well, yeah, I got the bruises to prove it. (Laughter) It was in April of 2010, and it was after spending most of the legislative session petitioning Senate President Colleen Hanabusa to refrain from having these overtly Christian prayers. She really left us no other choice but to stand up and object right there in the Senate chamber. It wasn't a rant. Very simply, I stood up and said "I object." I stated my name, and I said, "I object to this prayer on the grounds that it violates the First Amendment to the Constitution." And I sat down quietly.

Now, I was dragged outside the Senate chambers and thrown down on the ground. And when one of my associates (Kevin Hughes) was trying to record them with a video camera, the video camera was punched and he was thrown to the ground. And so, when that type of thing happened, we knew that we had to file a lawsuit. There was really no way to allow that to ever happen again.

And, actually I want to give the new Senate president, Shan Tsutsui, credit because he resolved the situation by changing the Senate rules so that they don't have prayers and invocations any more. And that is really the way to do it, because it's a breath of fresh air to go to a legislative session and hear the Senate just go to work and not waste any time with endorsing or promoting Christianity, which is really by far and away the only religion that was ever represented.

Q: You had a monetary award. What did you do with that?

A: Yes. We settled the case. The case actually went into litigation, and we litigated for about a year, I guess. And then we went on a hearing on a motion before Judge Leslie Kobayashi, and she ruled definitively in our favor. And, really, we set a wonderful legal precedent, in that if the government invites the public to participate in a prayer, that creates an open public forum, and by doing so, she basically made it so that the state had no possible way to defend its case, and literally within 24 hours they were agreeing to a six-figure settlement.

Q: So did you sink that money back into the group?

A: Well, it was awarded to us personally; it was a personal injury lawsuit. Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church does not accept monetary donations of any kind. We do not even have a bank account. No one in this organization has ever received a penny of compensation of any kind.

You know, in just this last week I've had more than a dozen people wanting to donate to us, because of the publicity (surrounding the charity concert issue) and what we always do -- and it's stated right on our website -- we ask people to join the ACLU of Hawaii or donate to the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Q: What do you think about the imprisonment of Hawaii island resident Roger Christie, who claims a right to smoke marijuana on religious grounds?

A: Well, you know, that was dealt with by a court -- I believe it was in Oregon -- in a case where Native American practitioners wanted to use peyote. So the court has already ruled on that. Now, I don't think there's much difference between someone who wants to smoke a little marijuana as part of their religious ritual and somebody who wants to drink communion wine. So I think that there is a problem, and hopefully someday that will be resolved by the court.

Q: Are you a religious man yourself, or an atheist, an agnostic?

A: Well, it all really depends on how you define these words, and let me tell you how I define the word "atheist." It's someone who's not religious. Just like if someone is apolitical. It means they're not political. ... For myself, I like to have evidence for something that I believe. For instance, there's no evidence that unicorns or fairies exist. So, therefore, I don't really have to go around proclaiming myself to be a nonbeliever in unicorns or fairies.

Same thing with being atheist. It really doesn't describe much of anything. It doesn't say a thing about a person. Somebody who's an atheist could be a really wonderful, humane, empathetic person. Or they could be a rude, rotten criminal. It doesn't really say anything about anyone.

Q: Do you have any legal cases pending right now?

A: We always have a few things in the warmer, but they're not ready to come out yet. ... And sometimes things have a way of resolving themselves. I mean, look how rare that you actually really do have to file a lawsuit. In this case with Moanalua High School, a couple of well-written letters and the situation was taken care of."
2012-12-20 03:38:50 PM
3 votes:
Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.
2012-12-20 03:10:35 PM
3 votes:

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.


0.5/10
2012-12-20 02:43:30 PM
3 votes:

Theaetetus: ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.


According to another article (mostly behind a paywall), the event was named similar to the New Hope church and was apparently pretty tied to them:  http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=182772291
 
That seems to be confirmed by the DOE's statement:
Donalyn Dela Cruz, director of Communications for the DOE, said the decision announced Monday to cancel the Friday concert was made by the DOE after consultation with the Attorney General's office.

"The Department applauds both the students who were hoping to provide this concert, as well as the charitable purpose behind it. However, after some consideration, the Department realized that the concert could have been better structured," Dela Cruz said.
2012-12-20 06:04:28 PM
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2012-12-20 05:39:03 PM
2 votes:

skullkrusher: well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.


I'll try to be as patient as I can. You can pray. You can pray all you want. You cannot use my tax dollars to coerce others into praying. Here's a handy quiz:

Crazyeddie believes that people shouldn't be allowed to pray:
T
F

Money I can use to convince people to pray can come from:
B. The Federal Government
E. The State government
H. Local Government, but only if it's for a good cause
U. Private institutions


Answer key: FU
2012-12-20 04:48:19 PM
2 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Intrepid00: Theaetetus: And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.

 
" and serving all people without regard for race, gender, or religion."
 
For that matter....so do the sushi-restaurant suppliers run by Moonies or various Scientology fronts, but they're still recruitment fronts...and Mercy Ships is very much a front-group of one of the nastier NARasite coercive religious groups. (Hell, they're a front of one of the very few coercive religious groups actually linked with a murder-suicide.)
 
For those wondering (I was) I managed to figure out exactly which NAR Great Porn Dragon is referring to (surprisingly, it's *not* the National Association of Realtors!)  What it is, though, is the New Apostolic Reformation, a bunch of dominionist yahoos who think the government should be a theocracy controlled by evangelical Christians.
2012-12-20 04:48:12 PM
2 votes:

MayoBoy: Has reading become a lost art?  FTFA:


First of all, the "article" is an opinion piece. If you had read anything else in this thread, you would have seen two things:

1) The advertisements said the money was going to New Hope Church, and the church played a big role in organizing the concert.

2) Mercy Ships is an evangelical Christian organization with strong ties to Youth With A Mission (they used to be the same, but have recently split up on paper)

Has critical reading become a lost art? When I was in school, we learned how to detect bias in 9th grade English class.
2012-12-20 04:36:57 PM
2 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.

I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.

More info:

A notation of their front-group activities
Documentation showing their longterm links with YWAM (although YWAM claims it's a "separate ministry" now, there are still extremely close links--moreso than with (say) Focus on the Family and Family Research Council; Mercy Ships was "split" largely after antidominionist researchers pointed out they were a front of the (deservedly infamous) YWAM)
None other than the form 990 of "YWAM Mercy Ships" from 2010--which is d/b/a "Mercy Ships International", a subsidiary of the main Mercy Ships operation per the main form 990 from the same year--and both showing very much that it's still a de facto YWAM frontgroup, and that both divisions still share the board of directors.

(BTW--that last one is why dominionists are fighting very, very hard to keep from closing the "church loophole" allowing domini ...


Oh wow.  Okay, heck, I'm with Mitch Kahle on this one, then.  Didn't think I would be.
2012-12-20 04:32:34 PM
2 votes:

Thunderboy: reaperducer: What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

I've done my share, I just don't belong to any particular organization.

Major dick move by the guy in the article. Never mind atheists - he give humans a bad name.


I keep asking people this, but nobody responds. Can you please point out exactly why what he did was bad? A school event was raising money for a church (supposedly to benefit a Christian charity). This guy pointed out that public schools cannot raise money for Christian organizations, so now the church is holding the concert directly.

Please explain to me why this is wrong.
2012-12-20 04:20:56 PM
2 votes:

skullkrusher: orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?

I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


I used to participate in some "medical missions" to 3rd world countries as a anesthesiologist, but became disillusioned at how the skill and technology I brought was used as tool to convert my patients to whatever the trip sponsors were selling.

In fact, I once ruined a sure thing with a super hot Delta stewardess who asked me if I was spreading the word of god on my medical mission. I told her "No. These people already have all the religion they could ever want. What they really need is some help."

These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.
2012-12-20 04:08:23 PM
2 votes:
Of course they had to have their little Christian concert on school grounds. They had no choice but to cancel it and whine to the media about their utter inability to move it to a different location.

reaperducer: These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.


We aren't against raising money for needy people in Africa. We are agianst using tax dollars and government property for religious purposes. Either make the thing secular or move it somewhere else, like a farking church.
2012-12-20 04:08:06 PM
2 votes:

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent _ Movement "founded to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for all human beings, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, sexual orientation, sex, gender identity, religious beliefs, class, allegiance, or political opinions.[1]"


yup, the red cross does jack squat.
2012-12-20 03:50:12 PM
2 votes:
I'm looking right now for a less biased and wharrglably version of this story. The Hawaii Reporter is sort of our own little "Free Republic" and not the most credible source when it comes to nuance.

In the past, these concerts were advertised for the Mercy Ships. This year, in a departure, they were advertised to benefit "New Hope Church."

Here is Mr Kahle's explanation from our much more mainstream Star-Advertiser:

" We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church."

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591 (may be pay walled)
2012-12-20 03:43:00 PM
2 votes:

bunner: See, sometimes people, various people a select group of people who share a belief, get together under various auspices for a the single purpose of to do useful things celebrating their religion using public funds from a larger group of people who don't believe in what they do, which is unconstitutional but we've been doing it so let us keep doing it..



FTFY
2012-12-20 03:31:43 PM
2 votes:
If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in, I just can't get (while disregarding the religious' problems with 'facts' in the first place). It's easy: organize your own fund-raiser on your own and do with the proceeds as you wish. It's a free country.

It really IS that easy.

But no, you wanna whine and biatch, accomplishing nothing while losing out on at least $30,000.00 There IS a reason this guy is getting his way most of the time.

He's right.
2012-12-20 03:30:01 PM
2 votes:

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.
2012-12-20 03:21:33 PM
2 votes:
www.patentspostgrant.com

I'm a staunch agnostic and no fan of organized religion or its infiltration into the state. I bristle at the obvious bias TFA has for people like me. And even I think this guy is an insufferable AW coonthammer who needs to be punched in the dick with a glove made of crucifixes.

Mercy Ships is not a religious organization, they're an organization of religious people who put their faith into action by doing good things for people for free because that's what they think their messianic figure would do. I have mad respect for that. Some incidental evangelism is unavoidable when working with a group like that, but I couldn't find anything on their site that said they actively promoted a church. In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

I thought island people treated each other with aloha.
2012-12-20 03:15:55 PM
2 votes:
I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.
2012-12-20 03:12:06 PM
2 votes:
i14.photobucket.com You're not helping
2012-12-20 03:10:50 PM
2 votes:
That's not atheism, that's just some good old fashioned trolling.
2012-12-20 03:08:26 PM
2 votes:

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS and medicine and dental care being shoved down my throat.


2012-12-20 02:47:45 PM
2 votes:
Oh, and the replacement concert?
The new charity concert is not a State of Hawaii Department of Education event, nor is it endorsed or affiliated with Moanalua High School or the State of Hawaii. It will be a Christian concert.
2012-12-21 11:54:20 PM
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.

I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.


.......

THOSE SNEAKSY CHRISTIANSES! WE HATES THEM, PRECIOUS!!

/but seriously, that is f*cking low
//what else do you expect from those who affiliate with the Prop 8 crowd
2012-12-20 10:53:46 PM
1 votes:

crazyeddie: From their Website:
Prayer has been an integral part of Mercy Ships decades-long history. Join with those around the world who uphold the work of Mercy Ships in prayer.

And yet here come the christains and supposed atheists to tell us how we must shut up and take it while our tax dollars support proselyzation:
Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.
ArkAngel: What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this.
BuckTurgidson: [i14.photobucket.com image 54x11] You're not helping
OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.
Flakeloaf: Mercy Ships is not a religious organization
xanadian: Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

Great Porn Dragon Nailed it:
a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one o ...


And now I know.... the rest of the story.
2012-12-20 06:55:38 PM
1 votes:

crazyeddie: Cybernetic: Who is coercing? Who is being coerced? Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?

PUBLIC school fundraiser for a CHURCH MISSION. You may not like the word coerce; feel free to substitute it with another that assuages your cognitive dissonance.

You can pray. You can be religious and spread the good word all you want. You can't use my money to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?


In a hundred years or so, we'll look back and think it was so odd and strange that we had all these churches all over the place trying to shove their views down our throats. And that we tolerated it.

Sorry, kids, you can't raise money for a Christianist mission on school grounds in a school event paid for by taxpayers. Take it elsewhere.
2012-12-20 06:21:50 PM
1 votes:

letrole: buckler: Le Troll is your surname.
letrole: And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.
buckler: Tsk, tsk...very unchristan of you.


I'm not obligated to date the obese and gormless, and I'm certainly not required to step in as a new daddy for a ragamuffin.


Careful, now...you're going off-script.
2012-12-20 06:08:28 PM
1 votes:

umad: crazyeddie: Why is this so hard to understand?

Maybe because the type of person who believes in ghosts and magic isn't going to be too keen on using simple logic? Just a guess.


Favorited. You are green5.
2012-12-20 05:57:31 PM
1 votes:

Cybernetic: Who is coercing? Who is being coerced? Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?


PUBLIC school fundraiser for a CHURCH MISSION. You may not like the word coerce; feel free to substitute it with another that assuages your cognitive dissonance.

You can pray. You can be religious and spread the good word all you want. You can't use my money to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?
2012-12-20 05:45:08 PM
1 votes:
the church group is "Mercy Ships" a bunch of Dominionist scum.
2012-12-20 05:14:51 PM
1 votes:
fark this guy...
Ask his Athiest group how much they made in donations last year...
Asshole.
2012-12-20 04:48:19 PM
1 votes:

Tatterdemalian: AJisaff: yup, the red cross does jack squat.

Yup, the Red Holy Symbol of Jeebus is an atheist organization.

/or is the Red Holy Symbol of Mohammed the atheist one?
//either way, 0/10


actually, they are now promoting the use of the red crystal in order to remove any thought that it is religious....
Bill O'reilly still thinks it's based on the religious cross, but he was wrong... and so are you...

A]ccording to the American Red Cross website, it was "n honor of the Swiss ... [that] the symbol of a red cross on a white background (the reverse of the Swiss flag) was identified as a protective emblem in conflict areas." While the cross on the Swiss flag originated in the 1200s from "a symbol of the Christian faith," according to the Swiss Embassy in the United States, the Red Cross makes no mention of Christianity as a reason for adopting the symbol. ...

In addition to stating that its symbol was chosen as the reverse of the Swiss flag, the American Red Cross website adds that "[t]he Red Cross idea was born in 1859, when Henry Dunant, a young Swiss man, came upon the scene of a bloody battle in Solferino, Italy," and that the "emblem was adopted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality" at the first-ever Geneva Convention at Geneva, Switzerland, in 1864.
2012-12-20 04:48:11 PM
1 votes:

crazyeddie: TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.


hey Eddie - you're a moron,
 
Love,
God
2012-12-20 04:45:12 PM
1 votes:
From their Website:
Prayer has been an integral part of Mercy Ships decades-long history. Join with those around the world who uphold the work of Mercy Ships in prayer.

And yet here come the christains and supposed atheists to tell us how we must shut up and take it while our tax dollars support proselyzation:

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

ArkAngel: What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this.

BuckTurgidson: [i14.photobucket.com image 54x11] You're not helping

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.

Flakeloaf: Mercy Ships is not a religious organization

xanadian: Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.


Great Porn Dragon Nailed it:
a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one of the first to get caught up in a televangelism scandal.) It's likely that the whole "New Hope" paradenomination are either Hawaiian International Foursquare churches (heavily stealthed ones) or a paradenominational daughter.

Back to New Hope Oahu, it seems they run a few ordination mills themselves, including a planned one in Burma (probably trying to take advantage of the new openness and move in before regulations for missionary activity can be set--NARasites did the same thing in the ex-USSR and in South Korea, it's something they've gotten stupidly good at). It too has some clear NARasite linkage, including to a training institute for NARasite leadership.



TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.
2012-12-20 04:43:20 PM
1 votes:

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


Well, that was anti-climactic.

Next year they'll use a shell charity then hand the money off to New Hope.

//Public schools should not be raising money for local churches missions.
2012-12-20 04:36:38 PM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Theaetetus: ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.

According to another article (mostly behind a paywall), the event was named similar to the New Hope church and was apparently pretty tied to them:  http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=182772291

That seems to be confirmed by the DOE's statement:
Donalyn Dela Cruz, director of Communications for the DOE, said the decision announced Monday to cancel the Friday concert was made by the DOE after consultation with the Attorney General's office.

"The Department applauds both the students who were hoping to provide this concert, as well as the charitable purpose behind it. However, after some consideration, the Department realized that the concert could have been better structured," Dela Cruz said.


Well, well, well--colour me completely unsurprised by this:

a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one of the first to get caught up in a televangelism scandal.) It's likely that the whole "New Hope" paradenomination are either Hawaiian International Foursquare churches (heavily stealthed ones) or a paradenominational daughter.

Back to New Hope Oahu, it seems they run a few ordination mills themselves, including a planned one in Burma (probably trying to take advantage of the new openness and move in before regulations for missionary activity can be set--NARasites did the same thing in the ex-USSR and in South Korea, it's something they've gotten stupidly good at). It too has some clear NARasite linkage, including to a training institute for NARasite leadership.

If this wasn't an attempt at "stealth evangelism" in a public school (something else for which NARasites are outright infamous for)...I'll eat my hat.
2012-12-20 04:29:45 PM
1 votes:

ibsalamander:

And I think there are some doctors in Africa who might argue that this man did do something wrong.


They're still getting their money, and the concert is being held by the church, not the school. I fail to see what's wrong about that. Can you please point it out to me?
2012-12-20 04:24:43 PM
1 votes:

bunner: Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.


False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
2012-12-20 04:23:52 PM
1 votes:

xmasbaby: These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.


MSF are amazing people.
2012-12-20 04:23:29 PM
1 votes:

orbister: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.
2012-12-20 04:22:26 PM
1 votes:

bunner: orbister: The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.


People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.
2012-12-20 04:18:41 PM
1 votes:

skullkrusher: I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

There are plenty of non-religious medical relief charities for which the school could have raised money.
2012-12-20 04:17:09 PM
1 votes:

OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.


I'm getting tired of stupid people picking up whatever patch they're told to sew on their coats - for whatever the ostensibly Meaningful Cause™ dui jour is - acting like something important happens every time they remind you that THEY have drank the SUPERIOR kool aid! It's like watching a 1st grade class trying to do Shakespeare while they have to use the bathroom. I don't care if you're trying to shove Jesus or atheism up everybody else's ass, to be honest because, so far, your best effort has been to aspire to being a suppository.
2012-12-20 04:11:07 PM
1 votes:

kendelrio: If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.


If the school hadn't proposed running a fund raiser for a local church, would he have written the letter? Doesn't sound like it. The school was responsible the letter being written which resulted in the decision being made. Ergo the school is responsible.
2012-12-20 04:09:34 PM
1 votes:

jack21221: Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.


Hello?
I always like these articles that white Knight the Christians by omitting the actual facts in an effort to make the guy who calls foul on their misbehavior an asshole..

No you cant use the public school kids as beggars to raise money for your church dickheads.. Not yours GTFA and DIAF
2012-12-20 03:59:54 PM
1 votes:

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.



I am atheist, but I love Christmas. I don't see it as a religous holiday. I couldn't care less that other people do. That's their prerogative. I view it as a cultural holiday. A day when everyone can STFU up about all the crap in their lives and have a good day. A day where people are actually kind to one another for a change.
2012-12-20 03:53:59 PM
1 votes:

Slaves2Darkness: And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist i


Actually, in the church I grew up in, the pastors emphasized doing good *because* it was good, not for magical-afterlife-brownie points. (I don't even ever remember them *mentioning hell*.)

/I also recall an easter sermon *Decrying* the "You've won the Jesus lottery! You get to go to heaven and earthly concerns should be no worry to you anymore!" rather nihilistic faith-not-acts interpretation of Christianity that's pretty popular in the US
2012-12-20 03:49:55 PM
1 votes:

thecpt: jack21221: The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."

which in their minds is just being charitable. Housing doctors falls under that category.


A public school cannot raise money for religious groups. I wholeheartedly support them raising money on their own, but I cannot agree press-ganging the school into it.
2012-12-20 03:43:08 PM
1 votes:
Mercy Ships website

The giant "Pray" button leads me to believe that this is not secular.

And here is where they spell things out more plainly:

"Mercy Ships follows the 2,000-year-old model of Jesus to provide hope and healing to the world's forgotten poor"

This is a religious group.
2012-12-20 03:40:07 PM
1 votes:

Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.



But this guy did the opposite of that.
2012-12-20 03:33:09 PM
1 votes:

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


So, this year the New Hope Church decided to keep the money rather than give it to Mercy Ships?

Can't imagine why that would upset some people, atheist or not.
2012-12-20 03:28:08 PM
1 votes:
You can kick this shopworn, clapped out "argument" around all you want and take sides and get all "good for him" til your gums bleed, but at the end of the day, this guy is and industrial application 55 gallon drum of douche and he just f*cked over some needy people and some talented kids to the tune of 30,000.00, all in one fell swoop. And that's not activism. That's pissy, bloated, self important butthurt. And nothing more.
2012-12-20 03:25:28 PM
1 votes:

ArkAngel:
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Seems like a pass to me.


Seems like you don't know how to logic to me.
2012-12-20 03:20:29 PM
1 votes:
I have attended several schools that double as churches on weekends, usually while their new church is being built. I've never heard of anyone objecting to that.

Prolly not a lot of atheists here, though.
2012-12-20 03:20:07 PM
1 votes:

Saners: I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.


Possibly one of the most one-sided articles I've seen outside Fox news and the UK tabloid media
2012-12-20 03:19:02 PM
1 votes:
Sometimes, I wonder if we are actually doing Africa and her people any favors by providing lots of aid.

It is well documented that food dumps are just as likely to end up feeding the local warlord as opposed to the people who actually need it.

We spend millions to bring water to villages; but don't take the time to make sure the people will use it. One example I remember; an aid group spent 6 months building a pipeline for a village, only to have the people not use it, because they thought the source was haunted.

/ Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?
2012-12-20 03:18:53 PM
1 votes:
Mercy Ships is a religious organization. The state of Hawaii should not let New Hope Oahu church use their resources, or those of a public high school which they fund, as a vehicle for this fundraiser.

If NHO had the clout, they'd just do it themselves. No problem at all.
2012-12-20 03:18:41 PM
1 votes:
And, as always, people are rushing to judgement even though the article has almost no actual information in it.

Yea, as presented, the article sounds like this is a matter of one person being mighty stupid.

But I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the only point of view presented is from a local talk radio host, the "journalist" wrote his own obvious biases into it and there's no explanation as to why, exactly, the concert was actually cancelled? The whole thing reads like a freakin' hit piece.

But no, I'm sure that TFA presents the whole story accurately and completely. Sure...
2012-12-20 03:18:30 PM
1 votes:
But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against.

So, atheists should just STFU, cuz there's not really any god-promoting in our government, right?

//
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR,
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under no God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
2012-12-20 03:17:37 PM
1 votes:
I'll bet if they kidnap and torture the atheist, he'll be begging for God's mercy in no time. Problem solved.
2012-12-20 03:14:22 PM
1 votes:

Cybernetic: It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.


Yikes. "a atheist"? I gotta proofread before I click Submit.
2012-12-20 03:13:28 PM
1 votes:
I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.
2012-12-20 03:11:38 PM
1 votes:
This ain't cool, brah.
2012-12-20 03:10:32 PM
1 votes:

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I hate relgious nuts like Kahle.
2012-12-20 03:10:17 PM
1 votes:
The ACLU isn't the problem- they defend attacks on the constitution. The authorities who listened to this clown are. Why is it true that the concert isn't acceptable due to a church helping, but it would have been acceptable with this guy helping? Who's to decide that what he believes isn't a religion? He's got a set of views about where we are in the universe, what we should do with problems, what happens when we die- that sounds a lot like what he's fighting against.
2012-12-20 03:07:56 PM
1 votes:
It's interesting but depressing that the people who want the second amendment followed to the letter are often the people who give no such authority to the first amendment. Good heavens, it's almost as if they only quote the Bible constitution when it supports their own prejudices.
2012-12-20 02:50:25 PM
1 votes:
Just to clarify - I'm not saying that the concert definitely violated the Lemon test, just that there seems to be a lot of details that are missing from that biased article.
2012-12-20 02:21:49 PM
1 votes:

Brettster808: ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.

The problem with that general definition, if one wants to use it, is that there are actual Hawaiian schools here, meaning schools that are attended only by people of Hawaiian descent.  Moanalua High School is not one of these. 
 
Also, If the school in the article were in Los Angeles it would be referred to as a California high school or a Los Angeles high school, not a Californian or Los Angelino high school.


Hawai'ian is both a term for the native inhabitants and for the residents overall. Adding the "n," "ite," or "ian" to the end of a place name refers to things that belong to that particular region. It doesn't work quite as well for other places as it does for Hawai'i, so using it in that way would be grammatically improper, but it works perfectly for Hawai'i.
2012-12-20 01:57:34 PM
1 votes:

Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.


Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.
 
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