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(Hawaii Reporter)   A Hawaiian High School Orchestra raises $30,000 for doctors in Africa, but people from a church worked on the setup? Never fear, The First Amendment FUD Brigade is there to make sure this atrocity doesn't happen again   (hawaiireporter.com) divider line 247
    More: Sick, First Amendment, arrests, Department of Transportation, Hawaii, Christian churches, HPD, new instruments  
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9431 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 03:53:10 PM
It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.
 
2012-12-20 03:53:59 PM

Slaves2Darkness: And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist i


Actually, in the church I grew up in, the pastors emphasized doing good *because* it was good, not for magical-afterlife-brownie points. (I don't even ever remember them *mentioning hell*.)

/I also recall an easter sermon *Decrying* the "You've won the Jesus lottery! You get to go to heaven and earthly concerns should be no worry to you anymore!" rather nihilistic faith-not-acts interpretation of Christianity that's pretty popular in the US
 
2012-12-20 03:54:56 PM

jack21221: AJisaff: obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???

The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."


as far as I can tell, it is 100% dedicated to providing health care services to impoverished people with no mention of proselytization.
 
2012-12-20 03:55:47 PM
Before bowing out of the sliding board politics clusterf*ck of insufferable semantic weenie waving that this thread is destined to become, I would like to state that, personally, I do not give a William nor Nilliam, polly wolly doo dah f*ck if the money was raised by nuns farting through kazoos, put in a bank account run by Rastafarian Druids, shipped there on some televangelist's private flying whorehouse and dipped in holy water by a congressional page who then hand delivers it to whatever outfit gets some kids medical care. And if you do, you are the fifty foot tall dinosaur skeleton in the museum of not getting it.
 
2012-12-20 03:56:42 PM

bunner: SocraticIrony: FTFY

You misspelled "gerrymandered, poorly edited and wiped my agenda all over". I'm certainly surprised. But I know you won't rest until life is just a gridlock of dime store semantics shuffled about by the kids whose parents told them how smart they were all the time. Carry on, soldier. We're all counting on you to lead us out of the darkness of accomplishment with a resounding "meh, whatever, there's RULES!" : )


This paragraph, at best, sounds like the incoherent babbling of a syphilitic mind.
 
2012-12-20 03:57:37 PM
I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year
 
2012-12-20 03:59:14 PM

ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school.

A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.

/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.



cdn1.screenrant.com
 
2012-12-20 03:59:30 PM

SocraticIrony: This paragraph, at best, sounds like the incoherent babbling of a syphilitic mind.


and you come off like one more Woolworth's lunch counter know it all who thinks that cheap insults and a posture of authoritative arrogance equals unquestionable intellectual acuity. We all have our cross to bear. See what I did there? : )
 
2012-12-20 03:59:41 PM
good on my alma mater.

boo on the asshole from my home state.
 
2012-12-20 03:59:54 PM

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.



I am atheist, but I love Christmas. I don't see it as a religous holiday. I couldn't care less that other people do. That's their prerogative. I view it as a cultural holiday. A day when everyone can STFU up about all the crap in their lives and have a good day. A day where people are actually kind to one another for a change.
 
2012-12-20 04:00:00 PM

reaperducer: These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people fund a christian missionary organisation which also does relief work in Africa, and you're against it?


Fixed.
 
2012-12-20 04:00:23 PM

Colin O'Scopy: If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in, I just can't get (while disregarding the religious' problems with 'facts' in the first place). It's easy: organize your own fund-raiser on your own and do with the proceeds as you wish. It's a free country.

It really IS that easy.

But no, you wanna whine and biatch, accomplishing nothing while losing out on at least $30,000.00 There IS a reason this guy is getting his way most of the time.

He's right.


^THIS
 
2012-12-20 04:03:34 PM

Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.


So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?
 
2012-12-20 04:04:26 PM
For those interested, here is an interview with Mitch Kahle from our mainstream newspaper, the Star-Advertiser. He's not quite the bogey man he sounds like in the linked article. I especially like his answer regarding his "attacks on Christianity." The Star-Advertiser is paywalled so here goes:

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591

"Kahle's latest effort to put a wall between state and church involved acting to prevent the entanglement of Moanalua High School's orchestra with the Christian group New Hope Oahu in presenting a charity concert earlier this month.

Other newsworthy cases included prompting the U.S. Army to remove a huge cross at Schofield Barracks, in 1997, and, starting last year, getting the state Senate to dispense with prayers and invocations at the start of its sessions.

In recognition of his work through the years, Kahle was named "free thinker of the year" in 2011 by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national organization that Kahle occasionally works with.

Kahle also is passionate about achieving full civil rights for homosexuals -- which he has campaigned for since even before he took on his first state-church challenge. In recognition of his advocacy for gay rights through the years, he was named one of several grand marshalls for this year's Honolulu Gay Rights Parade.

Kahle, 50, has been in Hawaii since 1992. He was born and raised in Michigan, where he graduated from Jonesville High School. He also attended Boston University and studied at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. He lives in downtown Honolulu with his significant other of the last 25 years, Holly Huber, with whom he has a small business involved in "everything from data base development to video production."

"We're basically free-lancers," he said. "When you register your business in Honolulu -- when you do a 'DBA,' as they call it -- they ask you what your business is, and I remember putting down 'Anything legal,' and that's kind of the way it's turned out."

QUESTION: How did this latest public action of yours (involving the Moanalua High School orchestra and New Hope Oahu) come about? Was that inadvertent or do you go looking for these things?

ANSWER: We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church.

Q: How long have you been doing this?

A: We've been active here in Hawaii in state-church issues since 1997. Before that, going back even earlier, I was involved, and still am involved, in the gay rights movement. But our first case here, we were contacted by a Vietnam veteran who was upset about the large cross that was at Kolekole Pass. And that was really what sort of kick-started our advocacy here, because we filed a lawsuit in federal court and 45 days later the Army pulled the cross down. So that was kind of the start of things.

Q: What drove you to get into this kind of activity?

A: Well, I've always felt uneasy about the mingling of religion and government, ... and I noticed that it was also making other people uncomfortable. So when a Vietnam veteran ... comes to you and says he doesn't want this cross on U.S. Army property, I was willing to take up the challenge for him.

And, basically, that's what it's been all along. ... We're able to help people because we can bring things to the public where someone else might feel intimidated or they might feel like they would be discriminated against.

Q: Why has the gay rights issue been so important for you?

A: Well, the injustice of it. The idea that we would deny an entire class of citizens in our society the rights and benefits of marriage is absurd to me. I have always felt that it is a grave injustice ... , but it looks like we're finally going to see that change.

Q: Most of your state-church challenges are related to the Christian religion? Why is that?

A: I don't know if I can put this in an elegant sound bite for you, but basically only the government can violate the Constitution. Individuals and churches, we can't violate the Constitution. Only the government can. And (in the United States) the government virtually all the time endorses Christianity over other religions.

Q: Why do you think there is a need to keep religion and government separate?

A: Well, that's really the only way we can all have freedom of conscience.

Humans have a right to believe any idea they want, whether it's a legitimate idea or an absurd idea. What we can't have is the government deciding what ideas are appropriate and what ideas are not. And in the case of religion, if we have the government saying Christianity is an appropriate religion but Scientology is not -- whatever anyone might think of Scientology -- what that does is it inhibits the freedom of the citizens.

The irony of the separation of state and church is that the United States is one of the most religious of modern nations on Earth, and it is because we keep religion out of government. The separation of church and state is a very misunderstood legal precedent.

Q: Some of our letter writers think you're pulling a fast one, saying, "Where does it say that in the Constitution?"

A: Right. The word privacy doesn't appear in the Constitution, but I don't think anybody would want to say that we don't have privacy rights. The separation of church and state was a metaphor created by Thomas Jefferson when he wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the Congregationalists being endorsed by the government. They used to have established churches, as you know, and Jefferson simply coined the metaphor "the wall of separation between church and state." That's where it comes from.

Q: In general, do you think courts are a better way to confront a particular case than via legislative bodies?

A: Traditionally the courts have been where this has been settled. I mean, even if we go back to the 1960s, to Engel v. Vitale, which is the case that made it unconstitutional for public schools to have morning prayers. Or you go forward to the cases that made creationism not allowed to be taught in high school science curriculum. These types of cases are really what has become what we call the separation of state and church today. ... And these are all, really, I think when you add all these up over about 40 years, the precedent that establishes what is the separation of state and church.

Q: Have you ever considered taking on tax exemptions for churches? Is that something that galls you at all?

A: It does bother me a lot. I do not believe that churches should be tax-exempt. I believe that they should be treated like any other sort of private club. Churches use the same kind of services that anyone else does. They have fire protection, police protection, water and sewer, roads connecting their churches to parishioners. I think that they should pay taxes like anyone else.

Q: Regarding that episode at the Legislature, in 2010, it was determined that you were assaulted, right?

A: Well, yeah, I got the bruises to prove it. (Laughter) It was in April of 2010, and it was after spending most of the legislative session petitioning Senate President Colleen Hanabusa to refrain from having these overtly Christian prayers. She really left us no other choice but to stand up and object right there in the Senate chamber. It wasn't a rant. Very simply, I stood up and said "I object." I stated my name, and I said, "I object to this prayer on the grounds that it violates the First Amendment to the Constitution." And I sat down quietly.

Now, I was dragged outside the Senate chambers and thrown down on the ground. And when one of my associates (Kevin Hughes) was trying to record them with a video camera, the video camera was punched and he was thrown to the ground. And so, when that type of thing happened, we knew that we had to file a lawsuit. There was really no way to allow that to ever happen again.

And, actually I want to give the new Senate president, Shan Tsutsui, credit because he resolved the situation by changing the Senate rules so that they don't have prayers and invocations any more. And that is really the way to do it, because it's a breath of fresh air to go to a legislative session and hear the Senate just go to work and not waste any time with endorsing or promoting Christianity, which is really by far and away the only religion that was ever represented.

Q: You had a monetary award. What did you do with that?

A: Yes. We settled the case. The case actually went into litigation, and we litigated for about a year, I guess. And then we went on a hearing on a motion before Judge Leslie Kobayashi, and she ruled definitively in our favor. And, really, we set a wonderful legal precedent, in that if the government invites the public to participate in a prayer, that creates an open public forum, and by doing so, she basically made it so that the state had no possible way to defend its case, and literally within 24 hours they were agreeing to a six-figure settlement.

Q: So did you sink that money back into the group?

A: Well, it was awarded to us personally; it was a personal injury lawsuit. Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church does not accept monetary donations of any kind. We do not even have a bank account. No one in this organization has ever received a penny of compensation of any kind.

You know, in just this last week I've had more than a dozen people wanting to donate to us, because of the publicity (surrounding the charity concert issue) and what we always do -- and it's stated right on our website -- we ask people to join the ACLU of Hawaii or donate to the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Q: What do you think about the imprisonment of Hawaii island resident Roger Christie, who claims a right to smoke marijuana on religious grounds?

A: Well, you know, that was dealt with by a court -- I believe it was in Oregon -- in a case where Native American practitioners wanted to use peyote. So the court has already ruled on that. Now, I don't think there's much difference between someone who wants to smoke a little marijuana as part of their religious ritual and somebody who wants to drink communion wine. So I think that there is a problem, and hopefully someday that will be resolved by the court.

Q: Are you a religious man yourself, or an atheist, an agnostic?

A: Well, it all really depends on how you define these words, and let me tell you how I define the word "atheist." It's someone who's not religious. Just like if someone is apolitical. It means they're not political. ... For myself, I like to have evidence for something that I believe. For instance, there's no evidence that unicorns or fairies exist. So, therefore, I don't really have to go around proclaiming myself to be a nonbeliever in unicorns or fairies.

Same thing with being atheist. It really doesn't describe much of anything. It doesn't say a thing about a person. Somebody who's an atheist could be a really wonderful, humane, empathetic person. Or they could be a rude, rotten criminal. It doesn't really say anything about anyone.

Q: Do you have any legal cases pending right now?

A: We always have a few things in the warmer, but they're not ready to come out yet. ... And sometimes things have a way of resolving themselves. I mean, look how rare that you actually really do have to file a lawsuit. In this case with Moanalua High School, a couple of well-written letters and the situation was taken care of."
 
2012-12-20 04:05:29 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


You are an Atheist.... he is an Anti-theist.
 
I have no problem with Atheists, but Anti-theists are douchebags.
 
2012-12-20 04:06:14 PM

orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?


I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?
 
2012-12-20 04:07:06 PM

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.


The one aggravation I have had with associating myself with atheists is this willingness to disassociate themselves from other atheists because the press is bad. Sorry, but this man did nothing wrong. To completely ignore the obvious bias of this piece to make yourself appear to believers as "one of the good atheists" does far worse to the image of atheists in general than this piece could.

The irreligious are no less prone to being jerks, but we aren't jerks for noting religious entanglement no matter how supposedly traditional.
 
2012-12-20 04:07:13 PM

clane: And yall keep voting Democrat...


[thegatewaypundit.com image 350x288]


The word is voted *american*. whether it's liberal, democrat, republican, conservative, libertarian or tea party - they are all bad.
 
2012-12-20 04:07:18 PM

skullkrusher: I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year


You're a good fella, skull.
 
2012-12-20 04:08:06 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent _ Movement "founded to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for all human beings, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, sexual orientation, sex, gender identity, religious beliefs, class, allegiance, or political opinions.[1]"


yup, the red cross does jack squat.
 
2012-12-20 04:08:19 PM
they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa on a medical mission.

So... missionaries?
 
2012-12-20 04:08:23 PM
Of course they had to have their little Christian concert on school grounds. They had no choice but to cancel it and whine to the media about their utter inability to move it to a different location.

reaperducer: These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.


We aren't against raising money for needy people in Africa. We are agianst using tax dollars and government property for religious purposes. Either make the thing secular or move it somewhere else, like a farking church.
 
2012-12-20 04:09:34 PM

jack21221: Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.


Hello?
I always like these articles that white Knight the Christians by omitting the actual facts in an effort to make the guy who calls foul on their misbehavior an asshole..

No you cant use the public school kids as beggars to raise money for your church dickheads.. Not yours GTFA and DIAF
 
2012-12-20 04:09:34 PM
I'm getting tired of atheists.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:07 PM

kendelrio: If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.


If the school hadn't proposed running a fund raiser for a local church, would he have written the letter? Doesn't sound like it. The school was responsible the letter being written which resulted in the decision being made. Ergo the school is responsible.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:32 PM

eudemonist: skullkrusher: I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year

You're a good fella, skull.


nah, if I were a good guy I'd give St Jude's the same amount and dig down for more to give Mercy Ships :)
 
/might do that
 
2012-12-20 04:11:49 PM
I'm catholic, I also work for Amtrak. I guess no one can ride trains now. Sorry guys.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:56 PM
"the whole point of being an atheist is not giving a shiat!"
-Atheist Adam Carolla
 
2012-12-20 04:13:24 PM

ggecko: Separation of church and state, what don't you understand?


The part about that only being validated by the supreme court based on the assertion that the states don't have the power to make state laws at all.

Separation of Church and State, according to the Supreme Court, is extended to the states by the 14th Amendment as Incorporation. The 14th amendment states:


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Essentially, any state law which restricts the freedoms of any citizen is a violation of this. That state law providing for enforcement of operating a motor vehicle in excess of posted speed limits and in disregard for traffic control devices and signage? Those citations "abridge the privileges ... of citizens of the United States." You have the privilege to drive--the state mandates that you MAY NOT drive without a state-issued license, which abridges this privilege. You have that privilege because there is no Federal law requiring licensing to operate a motor vehicle or otherwise restricting operation of a motor vehicle, thus you are automatically privileged to drive. State laws abridge these privileges.

Problem?
 
2012-12-20 04:14:14 PM

LarryDan43: Hawaii helping out people born in Africa? They sending birth certificates?


*golfclap*
 
2012-12-20 04:14:22 PM
As stupid as this is, it's an argument we have to keep having.  Frankly I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the idea that this concert is happening and might also somewhat benefit a church.  I don't really care if the football players at my local high school want to have a prayer circle before their game.  But it's still important that somebody says something about this and other similar situations.  It's vital that we continually refine and examine our interpretations of the first amendment.
 
So no, allowing this concert to happen is hardly going to bring down a theocracy on our heads.  But it's still part of an argument we have to keep having, so that the rest of the time we get to live in a society where challenges like this can happen.  The alternative is frightening.
 
2012-12-20 04:15:23 PM

OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.


Good, we've been tired of christian assholes for a long time.
 
2012-12-20 04:16:34 PM

SisterMaryElephant: OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.

Good, we've been tired of christian assholes for a long time.


I'm tired of all of ye
 
2012-12-20 04:16:42 PM

myne: NateAsbestos: xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*

Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.

So we go there now?


This is Fark. We *always* "go there."
 
2012-12-20 04:17:00 PM
Atheism is a Religion.
 
2012-12-20 04:17:09 PM

OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.


I'm getting tired of stupid people picking up whatever patch they're told to sew on their coats - for whatever the ostensibly Meaningful Cause™ dui jour is - acting like something important happens every time they remind you that THEY have drank the SUPERIOR kool aid! It's like watching a 1st grade class trying to do Shakespeare while they have to use the bathroom. I don't care if you're trying to shove Jesus or atheism up everybody else's ass, to be honest because, so far, your best effort has been to aspire to being a suppository.
 
2012-12-20 04:18:41 PM

skullkrusher: I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

There are plenty of non-religious medical relief charities for which the school could have raised money.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:03 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.

More info:

A notation of their front-group activities
Documentation showing their longterm links with YWAM (although YWAM claims it's a "separate ministry" now, there are still extremely close links--moreso than with (say) Focus on the Family and Family Research Council; Mercy Ships was "split" largely after antidominionist researchers pointed out they were a front of the (deservedly infamous) YWAM)
None other than the form 990 of "YWAM Mercy Ships" from 2010--which is d/b/a "Mercy Ships International", a subsidiary of the main Mercy Ships operation per the main form 990 from the same year--and both showing very much that it's still a de facto YWAM frontgroup, and that both divisions still share the board of directors.

(BTW--that last one is why dominionists are fighting very, very hard to keep from closing the "church loophole" allowing dominionist megachurches to get out of filing a form 990 like other not-for-profit orgs. What's in those form 990s is sometimes very, very damning indeed.)

As for its parent org:

More documentation of YWAM/Mercy Ships links
Documentation from conservative Christian evangelical on YWAM's extensive NAR linkage
A whole metric shiat-ton of articles from Talk to Action re the extensive NAR linkage of YWAM (including articles by Bruce Wilson and Rachel Tabachnick, some of the top secular researchers on NAR-linked dominionists)
More info re YWAM including its involvement in the "Path to 9/11" smear-job "documentary"
Notes from an exit counselor who considers YWAM a coercive religious group--including notes on Matthew Murray, a former YWAM member who started having a psychotic manifestation of PTSD while at a YWAM facility and who eventually had a full mental breakdown which ended in a murder-suicide
The particular chapter of Max Blumenthal's "Republican Gomorrah" dealing with Murray, including his involvement with YWAM and beginning of severe psychiatric injury
Links from another exit counselor who considers YWAM a group of concern (including a link to an ex-YWAM walkaway forum)
Blog of an ex-YWAM member, with links to ex-YWAM walkaway forums

In fact, YWAM is one of the few "Bible-based" coercive religious groups (along with the ever-rebranding Maranatha/Every Nation/Morning Star International/etc. and a general increasing awareness of the NAR in general having coercive tendencies--especially in the Assemblies of God, of which YWAM is one of a veritable hydra of fronts--ever since it went blatantly NARasitic, the Assemblies have about as many fronts as the Moonies). And--surprise surprise surprise--pretty much the de facto headquarters of YWAM is in Hawaii (per their form 990).
 
2012-12-20 04:20:37 PM

orbister: The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.


False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:42 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.


Not collecting stamps is a hobby.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:56 PM

skullkrusher: orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?

I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


I used to participate in some "medical missions" to 3rd world countries as a anesthesiologist, but became disillusioned at how the skill and technology I brought was used as tool to convert my patients to whatever the trip sponsors were selling.

In fact, I once ruined a sure thing with a super hot Delta stewardess who asked me if I was spreading the word of god on my medical mission. I told her "No. These people already have all the religion they could ever want. What they really need is some help."

These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.
 
2012-12-20 04:22:26 PM

bunner: orbister: The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.


People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:29 PM

orbister: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:52 PM

xmasbaby: These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.


MSF are amazing people.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:57 PM
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Actively eschewing stamp collecting whilst berating those who happen to collect stamps is a hobby.

A piss-poor hobby, but a hobby regardless.
 
2012-12-20 04:24:43 PM

bunner: Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.


False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
 
2012-12-20 04:25:05 PM

orbister: People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.


So?
 
2012-12-20 04:25:08 PM

orbister: skullkrusher: I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?

The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

There are plenty of non-religious medical relief charities for which the school could have raised money.


true. Think about it as sitting through a time share sales presentation in exchange for a free cruise ;)
 
seriously, I haven't seen anything about Mercy Ships which indicates proselyization. Sure they probably have a chaplain or 2 on board. They might invite local churches to minister to congregation members on board. Neither one of these things trouble me in the slightest
 
2012-12-20 04:25:10 PM
Email: in­fo[nospam-﹫-backwards]cssc­h*net

http://www.hcssc.net/

Enjoy! These guys are scum.
 
2012-12-20 04:26:32 PM

orbister: kendelrio: If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.

If the school hadn't proposed running a fund raiser for a local church, would he have written the letter? Doesn't sound like it. The school was responsible the letter being written which resulted in the decision being made. Ergo the school is responsible.


Oh ya? Well you eat POO!!

/nana boo boo
// rubber and glue
 
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