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(Hawaii Reporter)   A Hawaiian High School Orchestra raises $30,000 for doctors in Africa, but people from a church worked on the setup? Never fear, The First Amendment FUD Brigade is there to make sure this atrocity doesn't happen again   (hawaiireporter.com) divider line 247
    More: Sick, First Amendment, arrests, Department of Transportation, Hawaii, Christian churches, HPD, new instruments  
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9435 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 03:23:50 PM

Theaetetus: And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.


" and serving all people without regard for race, gender, or religion."
 
2012-12-20 03:24:03 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.

0.5/10


Really? Damn. For a moment I thought I had a good one. Man, I'm bad at this. I guess it's back to Craig's List anon meetings...
 
2012-12-20 03:24:34 PM
OH, they live in friggin' Hawaii, for fark's sake.
 
No one who lives in Hawaii has a right to complain about anything.
 
2012-12-20 03:25:28 PM

ArkAngel:
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Seems like a pass to me.


Seems like you don't know how to logic to me.
 
2012-12-20 03:25:32 PM
Add me to the list of "This guy is a farking asshole". He's making us atheists look bad.
On top of that, he is denying really awesome charities a BOATLOAD of money. People, children, will die as a direct result. Nice job, dick.

One thing I didn't get from the article is why they can't simply hold the concert somewhere else. It doesn't have to be in a school. I'm reasonably sure what with all the press attention, there will be more than a few venues that would be willing to host it.

Let the show go on!!
 
2012-12-20 03:25:39 PM
They cancelled a high school event," said Chad Brownstein,

The high school isn't in cahoots with the church. The high school is in cahoots with the jooos.
 
2012-12-20 03:26:35 PM
Hawaii helping out people born in African? They sending birth certificates?
 
2012-12-20 03:26:46 PM

iheartscotch: Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?


FTFA: Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa

HOW IN THE FARK WOULD THAT NOT HELP.

please step forward to claim you're either a dumbass, trolling, or you just don't bother with these article things here (you know, pretty much the purpose of the site).
 
2012-12-20 03:27:01 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


They don't traffic humans.
 
2012-12-20 03:27:25 PM
Yea Atheists, winning friends all over the world...
 
2012-12-20 03:27:28 PM

xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*


Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.
 
2012-12-20 03:27:43 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: This ain't cool, brah.

What is not cool? Writing a letter to Department of Education? Lots of cranks write all kinds of letters. They could have ignored him and if he filed a lawsuit let the law talking dudes figure out if it was legal, but no the DOE went and shut it down. If anything it is not the atheist that is to blame, but the farking bureaucrat.


Look brah, you gotta go with Christ, brah.
 
2012-12-20 03:28:08 PM
You can kick this shopworn, clapped out "argument" around all you want and take sides and get all "good for him" til your gums bleed, but at the end of the day, this guy is and industrial application 55 gallon drum of douche and he just f*cked over some needy people and some talented kids to the tune of 30,000.00, all in one fell swoop. And that's not activism. That's pissy, bloated, self important butthurt. And nothing more.
 
2012-12-20 03:30:01 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.
 
2012-12-20 03:30:06 PM
So I'm not sure why the blame isn't with DOE.

Crazy whackjobs who send letters of complaint are a dime a dozen. DOE was under no obligation to listen to this guy. There was no lawsuit (and the dufus would've lost had he tried).
 
2012-12-20 03:31:29 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.
 


Ever see Christians who claim everyone else is going to Hell?

This is the same shiat. Guy is an atheist and an asshole. He wants to push his religious views onto everyone else--and from his behavioral pattern, it looks more that he wants to do so for his own pleasure reveling in the degree of control he can exert over others rather than for some belief that what he's doing is good for anyone.

Power hungry git. People like that should be dumped off on some uninhabitable island somewhere far away.
 
2012-12-20 03:31:43 PM
If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in, I just can't get (while disregarding the religious' problems with 'facts' in the first place). It's easy: organize your own fund-raiser on your own and do with the proceeds as you wish. It's a free country.

It really IS that easy.

But no, you wanna whine and biatch, accomplishing nothing while losing out on at least $30,000.00 There IS a reason this guy is getting his way most of the time.

He's right.
 
2012-12-20 03:31:45 PM
Can we get his address and start sending him bibles qurans books of mormon ect.
 
2012-12-20 03:32:22 PM

thecpt: iheartscotch: Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?

FTFA: Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa

HOW IN THE FARK WOULD THAT NOT HELP.

please step forward to claim you're either a dumbass, trolling, or you just don't bother with these article things here (you know, pretty much the purpose of the site).


Hey skippy; I was talking generalities, not this specific case.

Housing actual doctors in Africa is a good thing.

/ I stand by my statement questioning whether or not we are actually helping them.

// also, some charities are better than others; such as doctors without borders
 
2012-12-20 03:32:38 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


You don't think things through very well, do you?
 
2012-12-20 03:33:09 PM

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


So, this year the New Hope Church decided to keep the money rather than give it to Mercy Ships?

Can't imagine why that would upset some people, atheist or not.
 
2012-12-20 03:33:11 PM

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


Maybe, but you gotta pick your battles. While I'm sure the DOE could've rectified the situation without shutting the event down or perhaps the principal / super should've had better oversight of the event's funding and planning (that's their screw up), this success doesn't help Mitch's cause. Rather, it makes more people go to a religious event.

Mitch,

www.patentspostgrant.com
 
2012-12-20 03:33:30 PM
And yall keep voting Democrat...


thegatewaypundit.com
 
2012-12-20 03:34:35 PM
God Bless them Atheists; Oh wait a minute, they don't believe in that.

Reset: Nobody Bless them Atheists.

\Asshats
 
2012-12-20 03:34:47 PM
Oh look, it's the atheist version of Fred Phelps of Westboro Babtist.
 
2012-12-20 03:34:48 PM

Colin O'Scopy: If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in


See, sometimes people, various people, get together under various auspices to do useful things. Does that sink in? Or is that offensive, too? Your soapbox has piss on it, btw.
 
2012-12-20 03:36:00 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better

So, this year the New Hope Church decided to keep the money rather than give it to Mercy Ships?

Can't imagine why that would upset some people, atheist or not.


I dunno if they planned on keeping the money but I can see the point since it isn't specified this time around.
 
2012-12-20 03:36:55 PM
 
2012-12-20 03:38:50 PM
Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.
 
2012-12-20 03:39:28 PM

iheartscotch: Hey skippy; I was talking generalities, not this specific case.

Housing actual doctors in Africa is a good thing.

/ I stand by my statement questioning whether or not we are actually helping them.

// also, some charities are better than others; such as doctors without borders


Gotch' ya. I really thought you were questioning the efforts of these kids. The idea that most of these areas lack the basics of what is considered civilization is how I address which charities are best. Doctors and Engineers without borders are my two favorites. A few of my engineer friends helped install clean water collectors for countless communities in South America, and of course their best work is irrigation in Africa. Just giving them food constantly is definitely like giving fish and not fishing poles, unless its famine or natural disaster related.
 
2012-12-20 03:40:07 PM

Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.



But this guy did the opposite of that.
 
2012-12-20 03:40:16 PM

xanadian: The First Amendment guarantees that government can't press a religion (or religion in general) on its populace.


That's actually a highly bullshiat argument.

http://www.liberty-ca.org/articles/article200206misapplied_establishm e nt_clause.htm

It guarantees that the Federal Government of the United States ... well, it guarantees that Congress cannot establish such laws, flatly. Congress can behave however they want--they can establish policy to pray at the opening of Congressional meetings if they want.

It is explicitly recognized by the courts that the First Amendment in no way applies the Establishment Clause to the states. This is not disputed--the Supreme Court relies, explicitly, on the Fourteenth Amendment to apply the restrictions on the Federal government to the States as well. That is to say: the Supreme Court has ruled that whatever it is that the Federal Government cannot do, so too shall the States not have such power. The Tenth Amendment disagrees.
 
2012-12-20 03:41:43 PM

kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.


But this guy did the opposite of that.


No, he wrote a letter. It was a bureaucrat in the DOE that shut the program down. Also you are only getting one very biased side of this story.
 
2012-12-20 03:41:47 PM
I could tell by the writing style, word choice, and tone of TFA that I was dealing with "news." It was also apparent from the RON-PAUL-fanclub-president, FB friend of mine that "likes" that site. A bad indictment.

I tried to find something on the matter on the Star Advertiser website to no avail, so I'm glad I have you lot to do my research for me.

skullkrusher: However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


I'm not in the least bit surprised that the "news" source of TFA didn't manage to speak to Kahle himself. He obviously seems like a man most excited to talk in general, but that would be what a reporter would do, not someone that produces "news."
 
2012-12-20 03:41:52 PM
That article sucked.
 
2012-12-20 03:43:00 PM

bunner: See, sometimes people, various people a select group of people who share a belief, get together under various auspices for a the single purpose of to do useful things celebrating their religion using public funds from a larger group of people who don't believe in what they do, which is unconstitutional but we've been doing it so let us keep doing it..



FTFY
 
2012-12-20 03:43:08 PM
Mercy Ships website

The giant "Pray" button leads me to believe that this is not secular.

And here is where they spell things out more plainly:

"Mercy Ships follows the 2,000-year-old model of Jesus to provide hope and healing to the world's forgotten poor"

This is a religious group.
 
2012-12-20 03:43:51 PM

iheartscotch: Sometimes, I wonder if we are actually doing Africa and her people any favors by providing lots of aid.

It is well documented that food dumps are just as likely to end up feeding the local warlord as opposed to the people who actually need it.

We spend millions to bring water to villages; but don't take the time to make sure the people will use it. One example I remember; an aid group spent 6 months building a pipeline for a village, only to have the people not use it, because they thought the source was haunted.

/ Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?


obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???
 
2012-12-20 03:45:02 PM

AJisaff: obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???


The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."
 
2012-12-20 03:46:40 PM
There are no atheists when the volcano blows and the tsunami's roll
 
2012-12-20 03:46:51 PM

SocraticIrony: FTFY


You misspelled "gerrymandered, poorly edited and wiped my agenda all over". I'm certainly surprised. But I know you wont rest until life is just a gridlock of dime store semantics shuffled about by the kids who's parents told then how smart they were all the time. Carry on, soldier. We're all counting on you to lead us out of the darkness of accomplishment with a resounding "meh, whatever, there's RULES!" : )
 
2012-12-20 03:47:17 PM

LarryDan43: Hawaii helping out people born in African? They sending birth certificates?


stat.mobli.com
 
2012-12-20 03:48:10 PM

clane: And yall keep voting Democrat...


[thegatewaypundit.com image 350x288]



Wrong Thread, wrong tab.

/dipshiat.
 
2012-12-20 03:48:26 PM

jack21221: The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."


which in their minds is just being charitable. Housing doctors falls under that category.
 
2012-12-20 03:48:27 PM
So you want to go to the local High School's benefit concert. You call up the front office about tickets, and they tell you that not only do you have to go to a church to buy tickets, you'll be writing a check directly to that church for the tickets.

So the High School is raising money for a church. That's why the DOE said it was structured improperly.
 
2012-12-20 03:49:55 PM

thecpt: jack21221: The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."

which in their minds is just being charitable. Housing doctors falls under that category.


A public school cannot raise money for religious groups. I wholeheartedly support them raising money on their own, but I cannot agree press-ganging the school into it.
 
2012-12-20 03:50:12 PM
I'm looking right now for a less biased and wharrglably version of this story. The Hawaii Reporter is sort of our own little "Free Republic" and not the most credible source when it comes to nuance.

In the past, these concerts were advertised for the Mercy Ships. This year, in a departure, they were advertised to benefit "New Hope Church."

Here is Mr Kahle's explanation from our much more mainstream Star-Advertiser:

" We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church."

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591 (may be pay walled)
 
2012-12-20 03:51:29 PM

kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.


But this guy did the opposite of that.

No, he wrote a letter. It was a bureaucrat in the DOE that shut the program down. Also you are only getting one very biased side of this story.


So lets take baby steps.

If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.


So, if I ask you a stupid question and you go on a shooting rampage with a high powered Bushmaster M-4 that slaughters 20 children I'm to blame?
 
2012-12-20 03:51:57 PM
Separation of church and state, what don't you understand?
 
2012-12-20 03:53:05 PM

NateAsbestos: xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*

Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.


So we go there now?
 
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