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(Hawaii Reporter)   A Hawaiian High School Orchestra raises $30,000 for doctors in Africa, but people from a church worked on the setup? Never fear, The First Amendment FUD Brigade is there to make sure this atrocity doesn't happen again   (hawaiireporter.com) divider line 247
    More: Sick, First Amendment, arrests, Department of Transportation, Hawaii, Christian churches, HPD, new instruments  
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9435 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 01:01:52 PM
I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.
 
2012-12-20 01:09:04 PM
What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this. The school gets some regular volunteers. The charity gets $60,000 a year.
 
Let's put this to the Lemon test
 
1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
 
It is setting up a holiday concert for it's choral group. Perfectly secular.
 
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
 
As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.
 
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
 
A single event that is completely run by the school district and only gets some help from parishioners does not entangle excessively.
 
Seems like a pass to me.
 
2012-12-20 01:35:03 PM
It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.
 
2012-12-20 01:57:34 PM

Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.


Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.
 
2012-12-20 02:11:08 PM

ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.


The problem with that general definition, if one wants to use it, is that there are actual Hawaiian schools here, meaning schools that are attended only by people of Hawaiian descent.  Moanalua High School is not one of these. 
 
Also, If the school in the article were in Los Angeles it would be referred to as a California high school or a Los Angeles high school, not a Californian or Los Angelino high school.
 
2012-12-20 02:21:49 PM

Brettster808: ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.

The problem with that general definition, if one wants to use it, is that there are actual Hawaiian schools here, meaning schools that are attended only by people of Hawaiian descent.  Moanalua High School is not one of these. 
 
Also, If the school in the article were in Los Angeles it would be referred to as a California high school or a Los Angeles high school, not a Californian or Los Angelino high school.


Hawai'ian is both a term for the native inhabitants and for the residents overall. Adding the "n," "ite," or "ian" to the end of a place name refers to things that belong to that particular region. It doesn't work quite as well for other places as it does for Hawai'i, so using it in that way would be grammatically improper, but it works perfectly for Hawai'i.
 
2012-12-20 02:23:34 PM

ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.


Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.
 
2012-12-20 02:30:04 PM
FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*
 
2012-12-20 02:36:45 PM
*reads more of TFA*

I donno...Kahle may have had strong arguments for some of those things, and there's nothing wrong with due diligence, but WOW does he go overboard. The First Amendment guarantees that government can't press a religion (or religion in general) on its populace. Church members that *happen* to be volunteering at a school-organized event does not qualify.

And I'm all for someone not wanting to believe in God. I can tolerate someone thinking those who believe in God are morons. But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against. And I f*cking HATE hypocrites more than anything else on the planet. Even more than the Beeb. And that's saying a lot.

What I'd really like to see is this guy and the WBC people at the same rally. That would be fun to watch.
 
2012-12-20 02:43:30 PM

Theaetetus: ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.


According to another article (mostly behind a paywall), the event was named similar to the New Hope church and was apparently pretty tied to them:  http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=182772291
 
That seems to be confirmed by the DOE's statement:
Donalyn Dela Cruz, director of Communications for the DOE, said the decision announced Monday to cancel the Friday concert was made by the DOE after consultation with the Attorney General's office.

"The Department applauds both the students who were hoping to provide this concert, as well as the charitable purpose behind it. However, after some consideration, the Department realized that the concert could have been better structured," Dela Cruz said.
 
2012-12-20 02:45:52 PM
And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.
 
2012-12-20 02:47:45 PM
Oh, and the replacement concert?
The new charity concert is not a State of Hawaii Department of Education event, nor is it endorsed or affiliated with Moanalua High School or the State of Hawaii. It will be a Christian concert.
 
2012-12-20 02:50:25 PM
Just to clarify - I'm not saying that the concert definitely violated the Lemon test, just that there seems to be a lot of details that are missing from that biased article.
 
2012-12-20 03:04:04 PM
They should have blessed the rains instead
 
2012-12-20 03:06:30 PM
Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.
 
2012-12-20 03:07:46 PM
I think I'm going to start a charitable homeopathic monetary fund.  Add a single cent and everyone in Africa will be rich beyond their wildest dreams.
 
2012-12-20 03:07:56 PM
It's interesting but depressing that the people who want the second amendment followed to the letter are often the people who give no such authority to the first amendment. Good heavens, it's almost as if they only quote the Bible constitution when it supports their own prejudices.
 
2012-12-20 03:08:26 PM

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS and medicine and dental care being shoved down my throat.


 
2012-12-20 03:10:17 PM
The ACLU isn't the problem- they defend attacks on the constitution. The authorities who listened to this clown are. Why is it true that the concert isn't acceptable due to a church helping, but it would have been acceptable with this guy helping? Who's to decide that what he believes isn't a religion? He's got a set of views about where we are in the universe, what we should do with problems, what happens when we die- that sounds a lot like what he's fighting against.
 
2012-12-20 03:10:32 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I hate relgious nuts like Kahle.
 
2012-12-20 03:10:35 PM

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.


0.5/10
 
2012-12-20 03:10:50 PM
That's not atheism, that's just some good old fashioned trolling.
 
2012-12-20 03:11:27 PM
That's a nice, concise, easily-readable headline ya got there, subs.
 
2012-12-20 03:11:38 PM
This ain't cool, brah.
 
2012-12-20 03:12:06 PM
i14.photobucket.com You're not helping
 
2012-12-20 03:12:11 PM
Maybe I'm retarded but...WTF does that headline even mean?
 
2012-12-20 03:12:15 PM
I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.
 
jvl
2012-12-20 03:12:29 PM

Dinobot: I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


Unless you are a ass-covering retarded person working at Hawaii's Department of Education, you have nothing to apologize for. A crazy person writing a letter is still just a crazy person.

/ Christian
 
2012-12-20 03:13:07 PM
It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.
 
2012-12-20 03:13:28 PM
I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.
 
2012-12-20 03:13:30 PM
Wow! Old News is exciting!

As when I first saw this I'll ask the question again, why not just move the event to a different venue? What nobody willing to donate a concert hall or something?
 
2012-12-20 03:13:37 PM
"The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "
 
I think that 'splains it better
 
2012-12-20 03:14:13 PM
I can't help but feel like there may be more to this story than TFA is telling.
 
2012-12-20 03:14:22 PM

Cybernetic: It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.


Yikes. "a atheist"? I gotta proofread before I click Submit.
 
2012-12-20 03:15:31 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: This ain't cool, brah.


What is not cool? Writing a letter to Department of Education? Lots of cranks write all kinds of letters. They could have ignored him and if he filed a lawsuit let the law talking dudes figure out if it was legal, but no the DOE went and shut it down. If anything it is not the atheist that is to blame, but the farking bureaucrat.
 
2012-12-20 03:15:55 PM
I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.
 
2012-12-20 03:17:00 PM

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.


he seems like an AAW to a great degree but he's probably right this time around.
 
/atheist attention whore
//oftentimes redundant
 
2012-12-20 03:17:37 PM
I'll bet if they kidnap and torture the atheist, he'll be begging for God's mercy in no time. Problem solved.
 
2012-12-20 03:17:50 PM
What's that you say? They're violating the First Amendment? Meh.

Wait, someone's talking about violating the Second Amendment? Time to git mah guns an' defend the Constitution to the DEATH.
 
2012-12-20 03:18:30 PM
But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against.

So, atheists should just STFU, cuz there's not really any god-promoting in our government, right?

//
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR,
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under no God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
 
2012-12-20 03:18:41 PM
And, as always, people are rushing to judgement even though the article has almost no actual information in it.

Yea, as presented, the article sounds like this is a matter of one person being mighty stupid.

But I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the only point of view presented is from a local talk radio host, the "journalist" wrote his own obvious biases into it and there's no explanation as to why, exactly, the concert was actually cancelled? The whole thing reads like a freakin' hit piece.

But no, I'm sure that TFA presents the whole story accurately and completely. Sure...
 
2012-12-20 03:18:53 PM
Mercy Ships is a religious organization. The state of Hawaii should not let New Hope Oahu church use their resources, or those of a public high school which they fund, as a vehicle for this fundraiser.

If NHO had the clout, they'd just do it themselves. No problem at all.
 
2012-12-20 03:19:02 PM
Sometimes, I wonder if we are actually doing Africa and her people any favors by providing lots of aid.

It is well documented that food dumps are just as likely to end up feeding the local warlord as opposed to the people who actually need it.

We spend millions to bring water to villages; but don't take the time to make sure the people will use it. One example I remember; an aid group spent 6 months building a pipeline for a village, only to have the people not use it, because they thought the source was haunted.

/ Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?
 
2012-12-20 03:20:07 PM

Saners: I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.


Possibly one of the most one-sided articles I've seen outside Fox news and the UK tabloid media
 
2012-12-20 03:20:29 PM
I have attended several schools that double as churches on weekends, usually while their new church is being built. I've never heard of anyone objecting to that.

Prolly not a lot of atheists here, though.
 
2012-12-20 03:20:54 PM
While he gets his panties in a knot about church workers volunteering to help out at a fundraiser completely ran otherwise by a state-funded entity, the majority of us here on the mainland have to deal with shiat like 'no liquor on Sunday because that's the lord's day and he commanded it herp derp' or 'you cannot sell liquor by the drink unless you also sell food because if you drink and don't eat it is a sin unto the almighty jesus christ.' Right there in the law books.
 
2012-12-20 03:21:23 PM
an atheist activist

This has to be the most pathetic thing I have ever read. Seriously. "Activism" for non-belief? At the expense of charity? Oh, I am so impressed.
 
2012-12-20 03:21:33 PM
www.patentspostgrant.com

I'm a staunch agnostic and no fan of organized religion or its infiltration into the state. I bristle at the obvious bias TFA has for people like me. And even I think this guy is an insufferable AW coonthammer who needs to be punched in the dick with a glove made of crucifixes.

Mercy Ships is not a religious organization, they're an organization of religious people who put their faith into action by doing good things for people for free because that's what they think their messianic figure would do. I have mad respect for that. Some incidental evangelism is unavoidable when working with a group like that, but I couldn't find anything on their site that said they actively promoted a church. In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

I thought island people treated each other with aloha.
 
2012-12-20 03:22:00 PM

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.


Triple here. Mercy Ships seems to be a somewhat religious organization, but they get doctors to people who need them, and that's cool. I'd be happier if the beneficiary were Doctors Without Borders, but at least they're not just handing out Bibles and saying "see ya!"
 
2012-12-20 03:22:32 PM

SisterMaryElephant: But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against.

So, atheists should just STFU, cuz there's not really any god-promoting in our government, right?

//
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR,
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under no God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


We should keep "under God" in there. It's what helps people in Sierra Leone struggle on - knowing that no matter how rough they have it, they can take solace in the fact that unbelieving Americans live under the tyranny of the Pledge of Allegiance
 
2012-12-20 03:23:50 PM

Theaetetus: And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.


" and serving all people without regard for race, gender, or religion."
 
2012-12-20 03:24:03 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.

0.5/10


Really? Damn. For a moment I thought I had a good one. Man, I'm bad at this. I guess it's back to Craig's List anon meetings...
 
2012-12-20 03:24:34 PM
OH, they live in friggin' Hawaii, for fark's sake.
 
No one who lives in Hawaii has a right to complain about anything.
 
2012-12-20 03:25:28 PM

ArkAngel:
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Seems like a pass to me.


Seems like you don't know how to logic to me.
 
2012-12-20 03:25:32 PM
Add me to the list of "This guy is a farking asshole". He's making us atheists look bad.
On top of that, he is denying really awesome charities a BOATLOAD of money. People, children, will die as a direct result. Nice job, dick.

One thing I didn't get from the article is why they can't simply hold the concert somewhere else. It doesn't have to be in a school. I'm reasonably sure what with all the press attention, there will be more than a few venues that would be willing to host it.

Let the show go on!!
 
2012-12-20 03:25:39 PM
They cancelled a high school event," said Chad Brownstein,

The high school isn't in cahoots with the church. The high school is in cahoots with the jooos.
 
2012-12-20 03:26:35 PM
Hawaii helping out people born in African? They sending birth certificates?
 
2012-12-20 03:26:46 PM

iheartscotch: Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?


FTFA: Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa

HOW IN THE FARK WOULD THAT NOT HELP.

please step forward to claim you're either a dumbass, trolling, or you just don't bother with these article things here (you know, pretty much the purpose of the site).
 
2012-12-20 03:27:01 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


They don't traffic humans.
 
2012-12-20 03:27:25 PM
Yea Atheists, winning friends all over the world...
 
2012-12-20 03:27:28 PM

xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*


Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.
 
2012-12-20 03:27:43 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: This ain't cool, brah.

What is not cool? Writing a letter to Department of Education? Lots of cranks write all kinds of letters. They could have ignored him and if he filed a lawsuit let the law talking dudes figure out if it was legal, but no the DOE went and shut it down. If anything it is not the atheist that is to blame, but the farking bureaucrat.


Look brah, you gotta go with Christ, brah.
 
2012-12-20 03:28:08 PM
You can kick this shopworn, clapped out "argument" around all you want and take sides and get all "good for him" til your gums bleed, but at the end of the day, this guy is and industrial application 55 gallon drum of douche and he just f*cked over some needy people and some talented kids to the tune of 30,000.00, all in one fell swoop. And that's not activism. That's pissy, bloated, self important butthurt. And nothing more.
 
2012-12-20 03:30:01 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.
 
2012-12-20 03:30:06 PM
So I'm not sure why the blame isn't with DOE.

Crazy whackjobs who send letters of complaint are a dime a dozen. DOE was under no obligation to listen to this guy. There was no lawsuit (and the dufus would've lost had he tried).
 
2012-12-20 03:31:29 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.
 


Ever see Christians who claim everyone else is going to Hell?

This is the same shiat. Guy is an atheist and an asshole. He wants to push his religious views onto everyone else--and from his behavioral pattern, it looks more that he wants to do so for his own pleasure reveling in the degree of control he can exert over others rather than for some belief that what he's doing is good for anyone.

Power hungry git. People like that should be dumped off on some uninhabitable island somewhere far away.
 
2012-12-20 03:31:43 PM
If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in, I just can't get (while disregarding the religious' problems with 'facts' in the first place). It's easy: organize your own fund-raiser on your own and do with the proceeds as you wish. It's a free country.

It really IS that easy.

But no, you wanna whine and biatch, accomplishing nothing while losing out on at least $30,000.00 There IS a reason this guy is getting his way most of the time.

He's right.
 
2012-12-20 03:31:45 PM
Can we get his address and start sending him bibles qurans books of mormon ect.
 
2012-12-20 03:32:22 PM

thecpt: iheartscotch: Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?

FTFA: Instead, they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa

HOW IN THE FARK WOULD THAT NOT HELP.

please step forward to claim you're either a dumbass, trolling, or you just don't bother with these article things here (you know, pretty much the purpose of the site).


Hey skippy; I was talking generalities, not this specific case.

Housing actual doctors in Africa is a good thing.

/ I stand by my statement questioning whether or not we are actually helping them.

// also, some charities are better than others; such as doctors without borders
 
2012-12-20 03:32:38 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


You don't think things through very well, do you?
 
2012-12-20 03:33:09 PM

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


So, this year the New Hope Church decided to keep the money rather than give it to Mercy Ships?

Can't imagine why that would upset some people, atheist or not.
 
2012-12-20 03:33:11 PM

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


Maybe, but you gotta pick your battles. While I'm sure the DOE could've rectified the situation without shutting the event down or perhaps the principal / super should've had better oversight of the event's funding and planning (that's their screw up), this success doesn't help Mitch's cause. Rather, it makes more people go to a religious event.

Mitch,

www.patentspostgrant.com
 
2012-12-20 03:33:30 PM
And yall keep voting Democrat...


thegatewaypundit.com
 
2012-12-20 03:34:35 PM
God Bless them Atheists; Oh wait a minute, they don't believe in that.

Reset: Nobody Bless them Atheists.

\Asshats
 
2012-12-20 03:34:47 PM
Oh look, it's the atheist version of Fred Phelps of Westboro Babtist.
 
2012-12-20 03:34:48 PM

Colin O'Scopy: If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in


See, sometimes people, various people, get together under various auspices to do useful things. Does that sink in? Or is that offensive, too? Your soapbox has piss on it, btw.
 
2012-12-20 03:36:00 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better

So, this year the New Hope Church decided to keep the money rather than give it to Mercy Ships?

Can't imagine why that would upset some people, atheist or not.


I dunno if they planned on keeping the money but I can see the point since it isn't specified this time around.
 
2012-12-20 03:36:55 PM
 
2012-12-20 03:38:50 PM
Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.
 
2012-12-20 03:39:28 PM

iheartscotch: Hey skippy; I was talking generalities, not this specific case.

Housing actual doctors in Africa is a good thing.

/ I stand by my statement questioning whether or not we are actually helping them.

// also, some charities are better than others; such as doctors without borders


Gotch' ya. I really thought you were questioning the efforts of these kids. The idea that most of these areas lack the basics of what is considered civilization is how I address which charities are best. Doctors and Engineers without borders are my two favorites. A few of my engineer friends helped install clean water collectors for countless communities in South America, and of course their best work is irrigation in Africa. Just giving them food constantly is definitely like giving fish and not fishing poles, unless its famine or natural disaster related.
 
2012-12-20 03:40:07 PM

Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.



But this guy did the opposite of that.
 
2012-12-20 03:40:16 PM

xanadian: The First Amendment guarantees that government can't press a religion (or religion in general) on its populace.


That's actually a highly bullshiat argument.

http://www.liberty-ca.org/articles/article200206misapplied_establishm e nt_clause.htm

It guarantees that the Federal Government of the United States ... well, it guarantees that Congress cannot establish such laws, flatly. Congress can behave however they want--they can establish policy to pray at the opening of Congressional meetings if they want.

It is explicitly recognized by the courts that the First Amendment in no way applies the Establishment Clause to the states. This is not disputed--the Supreme Court relies, explicitly, on the Fourteenth Amendment to apply the restrictions on the Federal government to the States as well. That is to say: the Supreme Court has ruled that whatever it is that the Federal Government cannot do, so too shall the States not have such power. The Tenth Amendment disagrees.
 
2012-12-20 03:41:43 PM

kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.


But this guy did the opposite of that.


No, he wrote a letter. It was a bureaucrat in the DOE that shut the program down. Also you are only getting one very biased side of this story.
 
2012-12-20 03:41:47 PM
I could tell by the writing style, word choice, and tone of TFA that I was dealing with "news." It was also apparent from the RON-PAUL-fanclub-president, FB friend of mine that "likes" that site. A bad indictment.

I tried to find something on the matter on the Star Advertiser website to no avail, so I'm glad I have you lot to do my research for me.

skullkrusher: However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


I'm not in the least bit surprised that the "news" source of TFA didn't manage to speak to Kahle himself. He obviously seems like a man most excited to talk in general, but that would be what a reporter would do, not someone that produces "news."
 
2012-12-20 03:41:52 PM
That article sucked.
 
2012-12-20 03:43:00 PM

bunner: See, sometimes people, various people a select group of people who share a belief, get together under various auspices for a the single purpose of to do useful things celebrating their religion using public funds from a larger group of people who don't believe in what they do, which is unconstitutional but we've been doing it so let us keep doing it..



FTFY
 
2012-12-20 03:43:08 PM
Mercy Ships website

The giant "Pray" button leads me to believe that this is not secular.

And here is where they spell things out more plainly:

"Mercy Ships follows the 2,000-year-old model of Jesus to provide hope and healing to the world's forgotten poor"

This is a religious group.
 
2012-12-20 03:43:51 PM

iheartscotch: Sometimes, I wonder if we are actually doing Africa and her people any favors by providing lots of aid.

It is well documented that food dumps are just as likely to end up feeding the local warlord as opposed to the people who actually need it.

We spend millions to bring water to villages; but don't take the time to make sure the people will use it. One example I remember; an aid group spent 6 months building a pipeline for a village, only to have the people not use it, because they thought the source was haunted.

/ Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?


obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???
 
2012-12-20 03:45:02 PM

AJisaff: obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???


The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."
 
2012-12-20 03:46:40 PM
There are no atheists when the volcano blows and the tsunami's roll
 
2012-12-20 03:46:51 PM

SocraticIrony: FTFY


You misspelled "gerrymandered, poorly edited and wiped my agenda all over". I'm certainly surprised. But I know you wont rest until life is just a gridlock of dime store semantics shuffled about by the kids who's parents told then how smart they were all the time. Carry on, soldier. We're all counting on you to lead us out of the darkness of accomplishment with a resounding "meh, whatever, there's RULES!" : )
 
2012-12-20 03:47:17 PM

LarryDan43: Hawaii helping out people born in African? They sending birth certificates?


stat.mobli.com
 
2012-12-20 03:48:10 PM

clane: And yall keep voting Democrat...


[thegatewaypundit.com image 350x288]



Wrong Thread, wrong tab.

/dipshiat.
 
2012-12-20 03:48:26 PM

jack21221: The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."


which in their minds is just being charitable. Housing doctors falls under that category.
 
2012-12-20 03:48:27 PM
So you want to go to the local High School's benefit concert. You call up the front office about tickets, and they tell you that not only do you have to go to a church to buy tickets, you'll be writing a check directly to that church for the tickets.

So the High School is raising money for a church. That's why the DOE said it was structured improperly.
 
2012-12-20 03:49:55 PM

thecpt: jack21221: The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."

which in their minds is just being charitable. Housing doctors falls under that category.


A public school cannot raise money for religious groups. I wholeheartedly support them raising money on their own, but I cannot agree press-ganging the school into it.
 
2012-12-20 03:50:12 PM
I'm looking right now for a less biased and wharrglably version of this story. The Hawaii Reporter is sort of our own little "Free Republic" and not the most credible source when it comes to nuance.

In the past, these concerts were advertised for the Mercy Ships. This year, in a departure, they were advertised to benefit "New Hope Church."

Here is Mr Kahle's explanation from our much more mainstream Star-Advertiser:

" We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church."

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591 (may be pay walled)
 
2012-12-20 03:51:29 PM

kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: kendelrio: Slaves2Darkness: reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist is ever charitable is because they want to be.


But this guy did the opposite of that.

No, he wrote a letter. It was a bureaucrat in the DOE that shut the program down. Also you are only getting one very biased side of this story.


So lets take baby steps.

If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.


So, if I ask you a stupid question and you go on a shooting rampage with a high powered Bushmaster M-4 that slaughters 20 children I'm to blame?
 
2012-12-20 03:51:57 PM
Separation of church and state, what don't you understand?
 
2012-12-20 03:53:05 PM

NateAsbestos: xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*

Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.


So we go there now?
 
2012-12-20 03:53:10 PM
It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.
 
2012-12-20 03:53:59 PM

Slaves2Darkness: And when has Christians ever done anything good out of the goodness of their hearts? Never. They all want to be Christ like and do good works to score brownie points in their mythical heaven. A Christian who gives to charity can never be considered charitable, they are just obeying what their mythical father/son/ghost god tells them they should be doing.

An atheist on the other hand who gives to charity, well they have to be considered the best that humanity has to offer, because no mythical father/son/ghost god is directing their actions. The only reason an atheist i


Actually, in the church I grew up in, the pastors emphasized doing good *because* it was good, not for magical-afterlife-brownie points. (I don't even ever remember them *mentioning hell*.)

/I also recall an easter sermon *Decrying* the "You've won the Jesus lottery! You get to go to heaven and earthly concerns should be no worry to you anymore!" rather nihilistic faith-not-acts interpretation of Christianity that's pretty popular in the US
 
2012-12-20 03:54:56 PM

jack21221: AJisaff: obviously you did not RTFA, as the concert was to fund housing for doctors treating those in the most need. but hey, whatever makes you feel more justified in your middle class priviledge,and not sharing it, right???

The concert was to fund a Christian organization on a mission to "follow the 2000-year-old model of Jesus."


as far as I can tell, it is 100% dedicated to providing health care services to impoverished people with no mention of proselytization.
 
2012-12-20 03:55:47 PM
Before bowing out of the sliding board politics clusterf*ck of insufferable semantic weenie waving that this thread is destined to become, I would like to state that, personally, I do not give a William nor Nilliam, polly wolly doo dah f*ck if the money was raised by nuns farting through kazoos, put in a bank account run by Rastafarian Druids, shipped there on some televangelist's private flying whorehouse and dipped in holy water by a congressional page who then hand delivers it to whatever outfit gets some kids medical care. And if you do, you are the fifty foot tall dinosaur skeleton in the museum of not getting it.
 
2012-12-20 03:56:42 PM

bunner: SocraticIrony: FTFY

You misspelled "gerrymandered, poorly edited and wiped my agenda all over". I'm certainly surprised. But I know you won't rest until life is just a gridlock of dime store semantics shuffled about by the kids whose parents told them how smart they were all the time. Carry on, soldier. We're all counting on you to lead us out of the darkness of accomplishment with a resounding "meh, whatever, there's RULES!" : )


This paragraph, at best, sounds like the incoherent babbling of a syphilitic mind.
 
2012-12-20 03:57:37 PM
I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year
 
2012-12-20 03:59:14 PM

ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school.

A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.

/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.



cdn1.screenrant.com
 
2012-12-20 03:59:30 PM

SocraticIrony: This paragraph, at best, sounds like the incoherent babbling of a syphilitic mind.


and you come off like one more Woolworth's lunch counter know it all who thinks that cheap insults and a posture of authoritative arrogance equals unquestionable intellectual acuity. We all have our cross to bear. See what I did there? : )
 
2012-12-20 03:59:41 PM
good on my alma mater.

boo on the asshole from my home state.
 
2012-12-20 03:59:54 PM

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.



I am atheist, but I love Christmas. I don't see it as a religous holiday. I couldn't care less that other people do. That's their prerogative. I view it as a cultural holiday. A day when everyone can STFU up about all the crap in their lives and have a good day. A day where people are actually kind to one another for a change.
 
2012-12-20 04:00:00 PM

reaperducer: These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people fund a christian missionary organisation which also does relief work in Africa, and you're against it?


Fixed.
 
2012-12-20 04:00:23 PM

Colin O'Scopy: If your religious organization is so farkin' spectactular, what do you need any government involvement for? Cut out the government part of it and it'll conform to the constitution.

It really IS that easy.

Why you religious can't seem to allow that one simple fact to sink in, I just can't get (while disregarding the religious' problems with 'facts' in the first place). It's easy: organize your own fund-raiser on your own and do with the proceeds as you wish. It's a free country.

It really IS that easy.

But no, you wanna whine and biatch, accomplishing nothing while losing out on at least $30,000.00 There IS a reason this guy is getting his way most of the time.

He's right.


^THIS
 
2012-12-20 04:03:34 PM

Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.


So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?
 
2012-12-20 04:04:26 PM
For those interested, here is an interview with Mitch Kahle from our mainstream newspaper, the Star-Advertiser. He's not quite the bogey man he sounds like in the linked article. I especially like his answer regarding his "attacks on Christianity." The Star-Advertiser is paywalled so here goes:

http://www.staradvertiser.com/columnistspremium/20121214_Mitch_Kahle. h tml?id=183466591

"Kahle's latest effort to put a wall between state and church involved acting to prevent the entanglement of Moanalua High School's orchestra with the Christian group New Hope Oahu in presenting a charity concert earlier this month.

Other newsworthy cases included prompting the U.S. Army to remove a huge cross at Schofield Barracks, in 1997, and, starting last year, getting the state Senate to dispense with prayers and invocations at the start of its sessions.

In recognition of his work through the years, Kahle was named "free thinker of the year" in 2011 by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national organization that Kahle occasionally works with.

Kahle also is passionate about achieving full civil rights for homosexuals -- which he has campaigned for since even before he took on his first state-church challenge. In recognition of his advocacy for gay rights through the years, he was named one of several grand marshalls for this year's Honolulu Gay Rights Parade.

Kahle, 50, has been in Hawaii since 1992. He was born and raised in Michigan, where he graduated from Jonesville High School. He also attended Boston University and studied at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. He lives in downtown Honolulu with his significant other of the last 25 years, Holly Huber, with whom he has a small business involved in "everything from data base development to video production."

"We're basically free-lancers," he said. "When you register your business in Honolulu -- when you do a 'DBA,' as they call it -- they ask you what your business is, and I remember putting down 'Anything legal,' and that's kind of the way it's turned out."

QUESTION: How did this latest public action of yours (involving the Moanalua High School orchestra and New Hope Oahu) come about? Was that inadvertent or do you go looking for these things?

ANSWER: We are constantly looking for these things, and we also are constantly being called and being told by people about violations. But we had been aware of Moanalua High School's involvement in this concert for a number of years. ... What really caught our attention this year was the lack of a charity (listed in the promotional materials). ... So we were really suspicious of whether this was a public school endorsing a church fundraiser that was potentially raising money for itself or for a religious mission. That's what really sort of tipped the scale on it for us.

What's interesting is we wrote a letter voicing our concerns to the principal of Moanalua High School, and that letter was essentially ignored. ... So we took it to the next step and contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is out of Madison, Wis. They're a national organization that we've partnered with before, and they provided a lawyer (who) wrote a letter to the Department of Education on our behalf. I can't tell you for sure, but it looks like that letter and our letter got sent over to the attorney general, and I think the attorney general quite rightly recognized the legal entanglement ... of this award-winning orchestra endorsing a church.

Q: How long have you been doing this?

A: We've been active here in Hawaii in state-church issues since 1997. Before that, going back even earlier, I was involved, and still am involved, in the gay rights movement. But our first case here, we were contacted by a Vietnam veteran who was upset about the large cross that was at Kolekole Pass. And that was really what sort of kick-started our advocacy here, because we filed a lawsuit in federal court and 45 days later the Army pulled the cross down. So that was kind of the start of things.

Q: What drove you to get into this kind of activity?

A: Well, I've always felt uneasy about the mingling of religion and government, ... and I noticed that it was also making other people uncomfortable. So when a Vietnam veteran ... comes to you and says he doesn't want this cross on U.S. Army property, I was willing to take up the challenge for him.

And, basically, that's what it's been all along. ... We're able to help people because we can bring things to the public where someone else might feel intimidated or they might feel like they would be discriminated against.

Q: Why has the gay rights issue been so important for you?

A: Well, the injustice of it. The idea that we would deny an entire class of citizens in our society the rights and benefits of marriage is absurd to me. I have always felt that it is a grave injustice ... , but it looks like we're finally going to see that change.

Q: Most of your state-church challenges are related to the Christian religion? Why is that?

A: I don't know if I can put this in an elegant sound bite for you, but basically only the government can violate the Constitution. Individuals and churches, we can't violate the Constitution. Only the government can. And (in the United States) the government virtually all the time endorses Christianity over other religions.

Q: Why do you think there is a need to keep religion and government separate?

A: Well, that's really the only way we can all have freedom of conscience.

Humans have a right to believe any idea they want, whether it's a legitimate idea or an absurd idea. What we can't have is the government deciding what ideas are appropriate and what ideas are not. And in the case of religion, if we have the government saying Christianity is an appropriate religion but Scientology is not -- whatever anyone might think of Scientology -- what that does is it inhibits the freedom of the citizens.

The irony of the separation of state and church is that the United States is one of the most religious of modern nations on Earth, and it is because we keep religion out of government. The separation of church and state is a very misunderstood legal precedent.

Q: Some of our letter writers think you're pulling a fast one, saying, "Where does it say that in the Constitution?"

A: Right. The word privacy doesn't appear in the Constitution, but I don't think anybody would want to say that we don't have privacy rights. The separation of church and state was a metaphor created by Thomas Jefferson when he wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists who were concerned about the Congregationalists being endorsed by the government. They used to have established churches, as you know, and Jefferson simply coined the metaphor "the wall of separation between church and state." That's where it comes from.

Q: In general, do you think courts are a better way to confront a particular case than via legislative bodies?

A: Traditionally the courts have been where this has been settled. I mean, even if we go back to the 1960s, to Engel v. Vitale, which is the case that made it unconstitutional for public schools to have morning prayers. Or you go forward to the cases that made creationism not allowed to be taught in high school science curriculum. These types of cases are really what has become what we call the separation of state and church today. ... And these are all, really, I think when you add all these up over about 40 years, the precedent that establishes what is the separation of state and church.

Q: Have you ever considered taking on tax exemptions for churches? Is that something that galls you at all?

A: It does bother me a lot. I do not believe that churches should be tax-exempt. I believe that they should be treated like any other sort of private club. Churches use the same kind of services that anyone else does. They have fire protection, police protection, water and sewer, roads connecting their churches to parishioners. I think that they should pay taxes like anyone else.

Q: Regarding that episode at the Legislature, in 2010, it was determined that you were assaulted, right?

A: Well, yeah, I got the bruises to prove it. (Laughter) It was in April of 2010, and it was after spending most of the legislative session petitioning Senate President Colleen Hanabusa to refrain from having these overtly Christian prayers. She really left us no other choice but to stand up and object right there in the Senate chamber. It wasn't a rant. Very simply, I stood up and said "I object." I stated my name, and I said, "I object to this prayer on the grounds that it violates the First Amendment to the Constitution." And I sat down quietly.

Now, I was dragged outside the Senate chambers and thrown down on the ground. And when one of my associates (Kevin Hughes) was trying to record them with a video camera, the video camera was punched and he was thrown to the ground. And so, when that type of thing happened, we knew that we had to file a lawsuit. There was really no way to allow that to ever happen again.

And, actually I want to give the new Senate president, Shan Tsutsui, credit because he resolved the situation by changing the Senate rules so that they don't have prayers and invocations any more. And that is really the way to do it, because it's a breath of fresh air to go to a legislative session and hear the Senate just go to work and not waste any time with endorsing or promoting Christianity, which is really by far and away the only religion that was ever represented.

Q: You had a monetary award. What did you do with that?

A: Yes. We settled the case. The case actually went into litigation, and we litigated for about a year, I guess. And then we went on a hearing on a motion before Judge Leslie Kobayashi, and she ruled definitively in our favor. And, really, we set a wonderful legal precedent, in that if the government invites the public to participate in a prayer, that creates an open public forum, and by doing so, she basically made it so that the state had no possible way to defend its case, and literally within 24 hours they were agreeing to a six-figure settlement.

Q: So did you sink that money back into the group?

A: Well, it was awarded to us personally; it was a personal injury lawsuit. Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church does not accept monetary donations of any kind. We do not even have a bank account. No one in this organization has ever received a penny of compensation of any kind.

You know, in just this last week I've had more than a dozen people wanting to donate to us, because of the publicity (surrounding the charity concert issue) and what we always do -- and it's stated right on our website -- we ask people to join the ACLU of Hawaii or donate to the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

Q: What do you think about the imprisonment of Hawaii island resident Roger Christie, who claims a right to smoke marijuana on religious grounds?

A: Well, you know, that was dealt with by a court -- I believe it was in Oregon -- in a case where Native American practitioners wanted to use peyote. So the court has already ruled on that. Now, I don't think there's much difference between someone who wants to smoke a little marijuana as part of their religious ritual and somebody who wants to drink communion wine. So I think that there is a problem, and hopefully someday that will be resolved by the court.

Q: Are you a religious man yourself, or an atheist, an agnostic?

A: Well, it all really depends on how you define these words, and let me tell you how I define the word "atheist." It's someone who's not religious. Just like if someone is apolitical. It means they're not political. ... For myself, I like to have evidence for something that I believe. For instance, there's no evidence that unicorns or fairies exist. So, therefore, I don't really have to go around proclaiming myself to be a nonbeliever in unicorns or fairies.

Same thing with being atheist. It really doesn't describe much of anything. It doesn't say a thing about a person. Somebody who's an atheist could be a really wonderful, humane, empathetic person. Or they could be a rude, rotten criminal. It doesn't really say anything about anyone.

Q: Do you have any legal cases pending right now?

A: We always have a few things in the warmer, but they're not ready to come out yet. ... And sometimes things have a way of resolving themselves. I mean, look how rare that you actually really do have to file a lawsuit. In this case with Moanalua High School, a couple of well-written letters and the situation was taken care of."
 
2012-12-20 04:05:29 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


You are an Atheist.... he is an Anti-theist.
 
I have no problem with Atheists, but Anti-theists are douchebags.
 
2012-12-20 04:06:14 PM

orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?


I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?
 
2012-12-20 04:07:06 PM

ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.


The one aggravation I have had with associating myself with atheists is this willingness to disassociate themselves from other atheists because the press is bad. Sorry, but this man did nothing wrong. To completely ignore the obvious bias of this piece to make yourself appear to believers as "one of the good atheists" does far worse to the image of atheists in general than this piece could.

The irreligious are no less prone to being jerks, but we aren't jerks for noting religious entanglement no matter how supposedly traditional.
 
2012-12-20 04:07:13 PM

clane: And yall keep voting Democrat...


[thegatewaypundit.com image 350x288]


The word is voted *american*. whether it's liberal, democrat, republican, conservative, libertarian or tea party - they are all bad.
 
2012-12-20 04:07:18 PM

skullkrusher: I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year


You're a good fella, skull.
 
2012-12-20 04:08:06 PM

reaperducer: I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent _ Movement "founded to protect human life and health, to ensure respect for all human beings, and to prevent and alleviate human suffering, without any discrimination based on nationality, race, sexual orientation, sex, gender identity, religious beliefs, class, allegiance, or political opinions.[1]"


yup, the red cross does jack squat.
 
2012-12-20 04:08:19 PM
they send $30,000 they raise every year overseas to a well-known charity, Mercy Ships, which is current housing American doctors in Africa on a medical mission.

So... missionaries?
 
2012-12-20 04:08:23 PM
Of course they had to have their little Christian concert on school grounds. They had no choice but to cancel it and whine to the media about their utter inability to move it to a different location.

reaperducer: These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.


We aren't against raising money for needy people in Africa. We are agianst using tax dollars and government property for religious purposes. Either make the thing secular or move it somewhere else, like a farking church.
 
2012-12-20 04:09:34 PM

jack21221: Would you guys calling this atheist activist an "asshole" stop and consider the bias of the article you're reading? That's an opinion piece, not a news article.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/story/Charity-concert-continues-desp it e-religious/LvT6D6C7SE2AwTIDJ0qUgQ.cspx is a bit more unbiased, but it still doesn't give a lot of information.

From what I can tell, it looks like the money raised was not going to a secular charity, but going directly to the New Hope church. I'm sorry, but a public school event cannot raise money for a church.


Hello?
I always like these articles that white Knight the Christians by omitting the actual facts in an effort to make the guy who calls foul on their misbehavior an asshole..

No you cant use the public school kids as beggars to raise money for your church dickheads.. Not yours GTFA and DIAF
 
2012-12-20 04:09:34 PM
I'm getting tired of atheists.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:07 PM

kendelrio: If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.


If the school hadn't proposed running a fund raiser for a local church, would he have written the letter? Doesn't sound like it. The school was responsible the letter being written which resulted in the decision being made. Ergo the school is responsible.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:32 PM

eudemonist: skullkrusher: I think St Jude's is gonna have to split their annual skullkrusher family gift with Mercy Ships this year

You're a good fella, skull.


nah, if I were a good guy I'd give St Jude's the same amount and dig down for more to give Mercy Ships :)
 
/might do that
 
2012-12-20 04:11:49 PM
I'm catholic, I also work for Amtrak. I guess no one can ride trains now. Sorry guys.
 
2012-12-20 04:11:56 PM
"the whole point of being an atheist is not giving a shiat!"
-Atheist Adam Carolla
 
2012-12-20 04:13:24 PM

ggecko: Separation of church and state, what don't you understand?


The part about that only being validated by the supreme court based on the assertion that the states don't have the power to make state laws at all.

Separation of Church and State, according to the Supreme Court, is extended to the states by the 14th Amendment as Incorporation. The 14th amendment states:


No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Essentially, any state law which restricts the freedoms of any citizen is a violation of this. That state law providing for enforcement of operating a motor vehicle in excess of posted speed limits and in disregard for traffic control devices and signage? Those citations "abridge the privileges ... of citizens of the United States." You have the privilege to drive--the state mandates that you MAY NOT drive without a state-issued license, which abridges this privilege. You have that privilege because there is no Federal law requiring licensing to operate a motor vehicle or otherwise restricting operation of a motor vehicle, thus you are automatically privileged to drive. State laws abridge these privileges.

Problem?
 
2012-12-20 04:14:14 PM

LarryDan43: Hawaii helping out people born in Africa? They sending birth certificates?


*golfclap*
 
2012-12-20 04:14:22 PM
As stupid as this is, it's an argument we have to keep having.  Frankly I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the idea that this concert is happening and might also somewhat benefit a church.  I don't really care if the football players at my local high school want to have a prayer circle before their game.  But it's still important that somebody says something about this and other similar situations.  It's vital that we continually refine and examine our interpretations of the first amendment.
 
So no, allowing this concert to happen is hardly going to bring down a theocracy on our heads.  But it's still part of an argument we have to keep having, so that the rest of the time we get to live in a society where challenges like this can happen.  The alternative is frightening.
 
2012-12-20 04:15:23 PM

OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.


Good, we've been tired of christian assholes for a long time.
 
2012-12-20 04:16:34 PM

SisterMaryElephant: OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.

Good, we've been tired of christian assholes for a long time.


I'm tired of all of ye
 
2012-12-20 04:16:42 PM

myne: NateAsbestos: xanadian: FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*

Hey this guy's a cock but I doubt he's calling for the deaths of people who disagree with him.

So we go there now?


This is Fark. We *always* "go there."
 
2012-12-20 04:17:00 PM
Atheism is a Religion.
 
2012-12-20 04:17:09 PM

OMG! We're All Gonna Die!: I'm getting tired of atheists.


I'm getting tired of stupid people picking up whatever patch they're told to sew on their coats - for whatever the ostensibly Meaningful Cause™ dui jour is - acting like something important happens every time they remind you that THEY have drank the SUPERIOR kool aid! It's like watching a 1st grade class trying to do Shakespeare while they have to use the bathroom. I don't care if you're trying to shove Jesus or atheism up everybody else's ass, to be honest because, so far, your best effort has been to aspire to being a suppository.
 
2012-12-20 04:18:41 PM

skullkrusher: I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

There are plenty of non-religious medical relief charities for which the school could have raised money.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:03 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.

More info:

A notation of their front-group activities
Documentation showing their longterm links with YWAM (although YWAM claims it's a "separate ministry" now, there are still extremely close links--moreso than with (say) Focus on the Family and Family Research Council; Mercy Ships was "split" largely after antidominionist researchers pointed out they were a front of the (deservedly infamous) YWAM)
None other than the form 990 of "YWAM Mercy Ships" from 2010--which is d/b/a "Mercy Ships International", a subsidiary of the main Mercy Ships operation per the main form 990 from the same year--and both showing very much that it's still a de facto YWAM frontgroup, and that both divisions still share the board of directors.

(BTW--that last one is why dominionists are fighting very, very hard to keep from closing the "church loophole" allowing dominionist megachurches to get out of filing a form 990 like other not-for-profit orgs. What's in those form 990s is sometimes very, very damning indeed.)

As for its parent org:

More documentation of YWAM/Mercy Ships links
Documentation from conservative Christian evangelical on YWAM's extensive NAR linkage
A whole metric shiat-ton of articles from Talk to Action re the extensive NAR linkage of YWAM (including articles by Bruce Wilson and Rachel Tabachnick, some of the top secular researchers on NAR-linked dominionists)
More info re YWAM including its involvement in the "Path to 9/11" smear-job "documentary"
Notes from an exit counselor who considers YWAM a coercive religious group--including notes on Matthew Murray, a former YWAM member who started having a psychotic manifestation of PTSD while at a YWAM facility and who eventually had a full mental breakdown which ended in a murder-suicide
The particular chapter of Max Blumenthal's "Republican Gomorrah" dealing with Murray, including his involvement with YWAM and beginning of severe psychiatric injury
Links from another exit counselor who considers YWAM a group of concern (including a link to an ex-YWAM walkaway forum)
Blog of an ex-YWAM member, with links to ex-YWAM walkaway forums

In fact, YWAM is one of the few "Bible-based" coercive religious groups (along with the ever-rebranding Maranatha/Every Nation/Morning Star International/etc. and a general increasing awareness of the NAR in general having coercive tendencies--especially in the Assemblies of God, of which YWAM is one of a veritable hydra of fronts--ever since it went blatantly NARasitic, the Assemblies have about as many fronts as the Moonies). And--surprise surprise surprise--pretty much the de facto headquarters of YWAM is in Hawaii (per their form 990).
 
2012-12-20 04:20:37 PM

orbister: The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.


False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:42 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.


Not collecting stamps is a hobby.
 
2012-12-20 04:20:56 PM

skullkrusher: orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?

I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?


I used to participate in some "medical missions" to 3rd world countries as a anesthesiologist, but became disillusioned at how the skill and technology I brought was used as tool to convert my patients to whatever the trip sponsors were selling.

In fact, I once ruined a sure thing with a super hot Delta stewardess who asked me if I was spreading the word of god on my medical mission. I told her "No. These people already have all the religion they could ever want. What they really need is some help."

These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.
 
2012-12-20 04:22:26 PM

bunner: orbister: The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.


People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:29 PM

orbister: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:52 PM

xmasbaby: These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.


MSF are amazing people.
 
2012-12-20 04:23:57 PM
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Actively eschewing stamp collecting whilst berating those who happen to collect stamps is a hobby.

A piss-poor hobby, but a hobby regardless.
 
2012-12-20 04:24:43 PM

bunner: Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.


False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.
 
2012-12-20 04:25:05 PM

orbister: People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.


So?
 
2012-12-20 04:25:08 PM

orbister: skullkrusher: I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?

The person whose life is being saved by an emergency appendectomy probably doesn't give a fark if you steal his wallet while you're doing the operation, but that doesn't make it right.

There are plenty of non-religious medical relief charities for which the school could have raised money.


true. Think about it as sitting through a time share sales presentation in exchange for a free cruise ;)
 
seriously, I haven't seen anything about Mercy Ships which indicates proselyization. Sure they probably have a chaplain or 2 on board. They might invite local churches to minister to congregation members on board. Neither one of these things trouble me in the slightest
 
2012-12-20 04:25:10 PM
Email: inf­o­[nospam-﹫-backwards]c­ssch*n­et

http://www.hcssc.net/

Enjoy! These guys are scum.
 
2012-12-20 04:26:32 PM

orbister: kendelrio: If he hadn't written the letter, would the DOE have shut it down? Doesn't sound like it. He was responsible for the decision being made. Ergo he is responsible.

If the school hadn't proposed running a fund raiser for a local church, would he have written the letter? Doesn't sound like it. The school was responsible the letter being written which resulted in the decision being made. Ergo the school is responsible.


Oh ya? Well you eat POO!!

/nana boo boo
// rubber and glue
 
2012-12-20 04:27:03 PM
bunner: Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.

orbister: False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.

Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.
 
2012-12-20 04:27:18 PM

orbister: bunner: Watching people run around the town square shouting "YOU WONT SEE ME COLLECTING STAMPS!" is a pain in the ass.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none.


That whole circular "this serves me so it must be true" fandango probably works on people who stare at their sneakers when somebody tosses out two false equivalencies at once. : )
 
2012-12-20 04:27:41 PM
I wonder how many of these "atheists" like Kahle are really atheists and how many are evangelicals ratfarking the system.
 
2012-12-20 04:27:43 PM

xmasbaby: skullkrusher: orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?

I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?

I used to participate in some "medical missions" to 3rd world countries as a anesthesiologist, but became disillusioned at how the skill and technology I brought was used as tool to convert my patients to whatever the trip sponsors were selling.

In fact, I once ruined a sure thing with a super hot Delta stewardess who asked me if I was spreading the word of god on my medical mission. I told her "No. These people already have all the religion they could ever want. What they really need is some help."

These days, I only work and travel to the needy with with atheists and the dispirited religious. MSF is awesome and hardcore, but I can't commit that much time away, so I send them money instead.


MSF is great but I really don't see an issue with Mercy Ships and MSF obviously cannot treat everyone.
 
2012-12-20 04:27:56 PM

Vangor: ibsalamander: It's not like we atheists have a set of shared beliefs or anything, but guys like this just reinforce the "atheist = super-douche" stereotype. I don't believe in God, but I love the traditional Christmas (religious) music, and I certainly don't care about a few government dollars going into making the world just a little bit more beautiful once a year. Particularly in light of the crass, frenzied exploitation of children and the shameless, vulgar commercialism that has all but hijacked our holiday season in recent years.

The one aggravation I have had with associating myself with atheists is this willingness to disassociate themselves from other atheists because the press is bad. Sorry, but this man did nothing wrong. To completely ignore the obvious bias of this piece to make yourself appear to believers as "one of the good atheists" does far worse to the image of atheists in general than this piece could.

The irreligious are no less prone to being jerks, but we aren't jerks for noting religious entanglement no matter how supposedly traditional.


Most of my friends are atheists, but it would never have occurred to any of us to associate with each other on the basis of our non-beliefs.

And yes, you are jerks for shiatting on Christmas,

And I think there are some doctors in Africa who might argue that this man did do something wrong.
 
2012-12-20 04:28:11 PM

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Check his username

/it's his surname
 
2012-12-20 04:29:45 PM

ibsalamander:

And I think there are some doctors in Africa who might argue that this man did do something wrong.


They're still getting their money, and the concert is being held by the church, not the school. I fail to see what's wrong about that. Can you please point it out to me?
 
2012-12-20 04:30:08 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


This.
 
2012-12-20 04:30:26 PM

reaperducer: What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.


I've done my share, I just don't belong to any particular organization.

Major dick move by the guy in the article. Never mind atheists - he give humans a bad name.
 
2012-12-20 04:31:43 PM

letrole: Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.


Really, why's that, then? I mean, isn't the point of alleged superior intellectual methodology to beat the dead horse with the most flair while ignoring the actual scenery surrounding the horse? Debate as a form of academic masturbation is just that, more often than not.
 
2012-12-20 04:32:34 PM

Thunderboy: reaperducer: What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

I've done my share, I just don't belong to any particular organization.

Major dick move by the guy in the article. Never mind atheists - he give humans a bad name.


I keep asking people this, but nobody responds. Can you please point out exactly why what he did was bad? A school event was raising money for a church (supposedly to benefit a Christian charity). This guy pointed out that public schools cannot raise money for Christian organizations, so now the church is holding the concert directly.

Please explain to me why this is wrong.
 
2012-12-20 04:33:59 PM
Insatiable Jesus: I wonder how many of these "atheists" like Kahle are really atheists and how many are evangelicals ratfarking the system.

I wonder how many scare-quoted "Atheists" don't in truth doubt the existence of God, but are actually driven by madness and rage and evil.

I've met such a fellow. It's one thing to be an unbeliever, quite another to confess belief, but still curse God and refuse acceptance.

Spooky.
 
2012-12-20 04:36:38 PM

Theaetetus: Theaetetus: ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.

According to another article (mostly behind a paywall), the event was named similar to the New Hope church and was apparently pretty tied to them:  http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=182772291

That seems to be confirmed by the DOE's statement:
Donalyn Dela Cruz, director of Communications for the DOE, said the decision announced Monday to cancel the Friday concert was made by the DOE after consultation with the Attorney General's office.

"The Department applauds both the students who were hoping to provide this concert, as well as the charitable purpose behind it. However, after some consideration, the Department realized that the concert could have been better structured," Dela Cruz said.


Well, well, well--colour me completely unsurprised by this:

a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one of the first to get caught up in a televangelism scandal.) It's likely that the whole "New Hope" paradenomination are either Hawaiian International Foursquare churches (heavily stealthed ones) or a paradenominational daughter.

Back to New Hope Oahu, it seems they run a few ordination mills themselves, including a planned one in Burma (probably trying to take advantage of the new openness and move in before regulations for missionary activity can be set--NARasites did the same thing in the ex-USSR and in South Korea, it's something they've gotten stupidly good at). It too has some clear NARasite linkage, including to a training institute for NARasite leadership.

If this wasn't an attempt at "stealth evangelism" in a public school (something else for which NARasites are outright infamous for)...I'll eat my hat.
 
2012-12-20 04:36:54 PM

letrole: I've met such a fellow. It's one thing to be an unbeliever, quite another to confess belief, but still curse God and refuse acceptance.


I don't believe in a God, but there are many versions of God who, if he DID exist, would be beyond contempt and would deserve the curses.
 
2012-12-20 04:36:57 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.

I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.

More info:

A notation of their front-group activities
Documentation showing their longterm links with YWAM (although YWAM claims it's a "separate ministry" now, there are still extremely close links--moreso than with (say) Focus on the Family and Family Research Council; Mercy Ships was "split" largely after antidominionist researchers pointed out they were a front of the (deservedly infamous) YWAM)
None other than the form 990 of "YWAM Mercy Ships" from 2010--which is d/b/a "Mercy Ships International", a subsidiary of the main Mercy Ships operation per the main form 990 from the same year--and both showing very much that it's still a de facto YWAM frontgroup, and that both divisions still share the board of directors.

(BTW--that last one is why dominionists are fighting very, very hard to keep from closing the "church loophole" allowing domini ...


Oh wow.  Okay, heck, I'm with Mitch Kahle on this one, then.  Didn't think I would be.
 
2012-12-20 04:39:14 PM

Intrepid00: Theaetetus: And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.

" and serving all people without regard for race, gender, or religion."


For that matter....so do the sushi-restaurant suppliers run by Moonies or various Scientology fronts, but they're still recruitment fronts...and Mercy Ships is very much a front-group of one of the nastier NARasite coercive religious groups. (Hell, they're a front of one of the very few coercive religious groups actually linked with a murder-suicide.)
 
2012-12-20 04:40:50 PM

jack21221: I keep asking people this, but nobody responds. Can you please point out exactly why what he did was bad? A school event was raising money for a church (supposedly to benefit a Christian charity). This guy pointed out that public schools cannot raise money for Christian organizations, so now the church is holding the concert directly.

Please explain to me why this is wrong


Has reading become a lost art?  FTFA:
 
It's true that some of the New Hope parishioners volunteered to sell tickets or work on the set. But the concert is run by school staff and features its students, and tickets are sold both on campus and by phone. One hundred percent of the proceeds go to Mercy Ships.  
 
2012-12-20 04:40:57 PM

AJisaff: yup, the red cross does jack squat.


Yup, the Red Holy Symbol of Jeebus is an atheist organization.

/or is the Red Holy Symbol of Mohammed the atheist one?
//either way, 0/10
 
2012-12-20 04:43:20 PM

skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better


Well, that was anti-climactic.

Next year they'll use a shell charity then hand the money off to New Hope.

//Public schools should not be raising money for local churches missions.
 
2012-12-20 04:43:41 PM
letrole: Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.

bunner: Really, why's that, then? I mean, isn't the point of alleged superior intellectual methodology to beat the dead horse with the most flair while ignoring the actual scenery surrounding the horse? Debate as a form of academic masturbation is just that, more often than not.

If you encounter a strawman, you have to explain how the strawman is supposed to work. By doing this, you back up your claim of logical fallacy, and you further prove the debating point.

As it stands, the original goon was only doing only a little better version of Pee Wee herman's "I know you are, so what am I?"

but not by much.
 
2012-12-20 04:45:11 PM

letrole: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Actively eschewing stamp collecting whilst berating those who happen to collect stamps is a hobby.

A piss-poor hobby, but a hobby regardless.


The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society.
Atheism has sometimes been defined to include the simple absence of belief that any deities exist. This broad definition would include newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas.

//No mention of it being a religion.

Fun fact; In the US, in states with the highest percentages of atheists, the murder rate is lower than average. In the most religious US states, the murder rate is higher than average (wiki).

/TMYK
 
2012-12-20 04:45:12 PM
From their Website:
Prayer has been an integral part of Mercy Ships decades-long history. Join with those around the world who uphold the work of Mercy Ships in prayer.

And yet here come the christains and supposed atheists to tell us how we must shut up and take it while our tax dollars support proselyzation:

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

ArkAngel: What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this.

BuckTurgidson: [i14.photobucket.com image 54x11] You're not helping

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.

Flakeloaf: Mercy Ships is not a religious organization

xanadian: Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.


Great Porn Dragon Nailed it:
a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one of the first to get caught up in a televangelism scandal.) It's likely that the whole "New Hope" paradenomination are either Hawaiian International Foursquare churches (heavily stealthed ones) or a paradenominational daughter.

Back to New Hope Oahu, it seems they run a few ordination mills themselves, including a planned one in Burma (probably trying to take advantage of the new openness and move in before regulations for missionary activity can be set--NARasites did the same thing in the ex-USSR and in South Korea, it's something they've gotten stupidly good at). It too has some clear NARasite linkage, including to a training institute for NARasite leadership.



TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.
 
2012-12-20 04:45:29 PM
What a Hawaiian HS band might look like
img843.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-20 04:45:38 PM
Stay classy, libs!
 
2012-12-20 04:45:47 PM

bunner: SocraticIrony: This paragraph, at best, sounds like the incoherent babbling of a syphilitic mind.

and you come off like one more Woolworth's lunch counter know it all who thinks that cheap insults and a posture of authoritative arrogance equals unquestionable intellectual acuity. We all have our cross to bear. See what I did there? : )


I know for a fact that the irony of this statement is lost on you.

/icwutudidthur.jpeg
//You also rhymed
///like a school girl.
 
2012-12-20 04:45:53 PM

meat0918: skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better

Well, that was anti-climactic.

Next year they'll use a shell charity then hand the money off to New Hope.

//Public schools should not be raising money for local churches missions.


yeah, having a hard time getting outraged by his outraged in light of that info. He still seems douchey but not because of this.
 
2012-12-20 04:46:53 PM

letrole: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

orbister: Not collecting stamps is a hobby.


Actively eschewing stamp collecting whilst berating those who happen to collect stamps is a hobby.

A piss-poor hobby, but a hobby regardless.


Le Troll is your surname.
 
2012-12-20 04:48:11 PM

crazyeddie: TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.


hey Eddie - you're a moron,
 
Love,
God
 
2012-12-20 04:48:12 PM

MayoBoy: Has reading become a lost art?  FTFA:


First of all, the "article" is an opinion piece. If you had read anything else in this thread, you would have seen two things:

1) The advertisements said the money was going to New Hope Church, and the church played a big role in organizing the concert.

2) Mercy Ships is an evangelical Christian organization with strong ties to Youth With A Mission (they used to be the same, but have recently split up on paper)

Has critical reading become a lost art? When I was in school, we learned how to detect bias in 9th grade English class.
 
2012-12-20 04:48:19 PM

Tatterdemalian: AJisaff: yup, the red cross does jack squat.

Yup, the Red Holy Symbol of Jeebus is an atheist organization.

/or is the Red Holy Symbol of Mohammed the atheist one?
//either way, 0/10


actually, they are now promoting the use of the red crystal in order to remove any thought that it is religious....
Bill O'reilly still thinks it's based on the religious cross, but he was wrong... and so are you...

A]ccording to the American Red Cross website, it was "n honor of the Swiss ... [that] the symbol of a red cross on a white background (the reverse of the Swiss flag) was identified as a protective emblem in conflict areas." While the cross on the Swiss flag originated in the 1200s from "a symbol of the Christian faith," according to the Swiss Embassy in the United States, the Red Cross makes no mention of Christianity as a reason for adopting the symbol. ...

In addition to stating that its symbol was chosen as the reverse of the Swiss flag, the American Red Cross website adds that "[t]he Red Cross idea was born in 1859, when Henry Dunant, a young Swiss man, came upon the scene of a bloody battle in Solferino, Italy," and that the "emblem was adopted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality" at the first-ever Geneva Convention at Geneva, Switzerland, in 1864.
 
2012-12-20 04:48:19 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Intrepid00: Theaetetus: And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.

 
" and serving all people without regard for race, gender, or religion."
 
For that matter....so do the sushi-restaurant suppliers run by Moonies or various Scientology fronts, but they're still recruitment fronts...and Mercy Ships is very much a front-group of one of the nastier NARasite coercive religious groups. (Hell, they're a front of one of the very few coercive religious groups actually linked with a murder-suicide.)
 
For those wondering (I was) I managed to figure out exactly which NAR Great Porn Dragon is referring to (surprisingly, it's *not* the National Association of Realtors!)  What it is, though, is the New Apostolic Reformation, a bunch of dominionist yahoos who think the government should be a theocracy controlled by evangelical Christians.
 
2012-12-20 04:48:24 PM

SocraticIrony: I know for a fact that the irony of this statement is lost on you.


No, it isn't. There is none. you just embedded an implied assertion and ascribed it to some nonexistent irony. You're also a troll. And it's been done better. : )
 
2012-12-20 04:48:48 PM
letrole: I've met such a fellow. It's one thing to be an unbeliever, quite another to confess belief, but still curse God and refuse acceptance.

jack21221: I don't believe in a God, but there are many versions of God who, if he DID exist, would be beyond contempt and would deserve the curses.


Well, that's just your opinion.
 
2012-12-20 04:49:52 PM

doonerpjenkins: Email: info[[nospam-﹫-backwards] image 7x13]cssch[* image 7x13]net

http://www.hcssc.net/

Enjoy! These guys are scum working hard to make sure Culty McCulterson NARasites can't use a public nonsectarian school to make money.


Fixed that for you, and half tempted to write them to THANK them.

(If they want to raise money for their culty-McCulterson NARasite schemes to convert African families to full-on Uganda-style KILL THE GAYS AND BURN THE WITCH CHILDREN dominionist NARasitism--and yes, their parent group is one of those linked to the Ugandan "Kill The Gays" bill that just will not farking die and comes back like a bad case of Genocide Herpes every six months and cases of kids being killed or becoming displaced (and functionally abandoned) kids after NARasite "revivals" promoting "deliverance ministry"...Sub-Saharan Africa is literally the LAST place we need to be encouraging frank NARasitism because it's already crossing the line to frank genocide there) they have their own megachurch facilities to do so. They don't need to use public school facilities for a de facto recruitment front, which (seriously, I will bet farking money on this because I've seen this so many times with NARasites trying to sneak recruitment fronts into public schools with the aim of targeting KIDS to join their coercive groups) was probably the intent of New Hope Oahu to begin with.)
 
2012-12-20 04:51:47 PM
Barbecue Bob: The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society.
Atheism has sometimes been defined to include the simple absence of belief that any deities exist. This broad definition would include newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas.



Atheism is a Religion.

The amusing part is where an almost endless supply of Schoolboy Atheists will launch into ever-decreasing circles of denial, and exercises of semantics worthy of any medieval theologian.
 
2012-12-20 04:52:15 PM

Great Porn Dragon: they want to raise money for their culty-McCulterson NARasite schemes to convert African families to full-on Uganda-style KILL THE GAYS AND BURN THE WITCH CHILDREN dominionist NARasitism


Do you have the minutes of this meeting? It sounds fascinating.
 
2012-12-20 04:53:52 PM
buckler: Le Troll is your surname.


And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.
 
2012-12-20 04:53:59 PM
"THE FREEMASONS JESUS PEOPLE ARE POISONING THE WELLS! *yawn* Grow a spine, folks. You look silly.
 
2012-12-20 04:57:08 PM

bunner: SocraticIrony: I know for a fact that the irony of this statement is lost on you.

No, it isn't. There is none. you just embedded an implied assertion and ascribed it to some nonexistent irony. You're also a troll. And it's been done better. : )


Hah I'm not a troll but picturing your face turning red from indignation while frantically trying to type your eloquent ad hominems while at the same time trying to deny they are just that, brings a smile to my face.
 
2012-12-20 04:57:27 PM
This makes me want to Puka
 
2012-12-20 04:58:08 PM

jack21221: Thunderboy: reaperducer: What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.

I've done my share, I just don't belong to any particular organization.

Major dick move by the guy in the article. Never mind atheists - he give humans a bad name.

I keep asking people this, but nobody responds. Can you please point out exactly why what he did was bad? A school event was raising money for a church (supposedly to benefit a Christian charity). This guy pointed out that public schools cannot raise money for Christian organizations, so now the church is holding the concert directly.

Please explain to me why this is wrong.


I admittedly made the n00b mistake of taking the article at face value.
 
2012-12-20 04:59:28 PM

SocraticIrony: Hah I'm not a troll but picturing your face turning red from indignation while frantically trying to type


You, uh read this sh*t first, don't you? *snort* Sorry, I feel great. Word to your sainted mother, kind gal she is. Bye nose pick. : )
 
2012-12-20 05:02:23 PM

bunner:
You, uh read this sh*t first, don't you? *snort* Sorry, I feel great. Word to your sainted mother, kind gal she is. Bye nose pick. : )


Nothing of substance to say? I'll declare this a victory then.
 
2012-12-20 05:04:35 PM
Great Porn Dragon: If they want to raise money for their culty-McCulterson NARasite schemes to convert African families to full-on Uganda-style KILL THE GAYS AND BURN THE WITCH CHILDREN dominionist NARasitism--and yes, their parent group is one of those linked to the Ugandan "Kill The Gays" bill

Fullcaps IN unusual or the wrong PLACES detracts from the content and makes the author look a bit loonish

/HTH
/HAND
 
2012-12-20 05:05:19 PM

letrole: letrole: Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.

bunner: Really, why's that, then? I mean, isn't the point of alleged superior intellectual methodology to beat the dead horse with the most flair while ignoring the actual scenery surrounding the horse? Debate as a form of academic masturbation is just that, more often than not.

If you encounter a strawman, you have to explain how the strawman is supposed to work. By doing this, you back up your claim of logical fallacy, and you further prove the debating point.

As it stands, the original goon was only doing only a little better version of Pee Wee herman's "I know you are, so what am I?"

but not by much.


You got a manual for that gymnastic dead end? Cause if this is one of those "I have a complete list of debate fallacies and an abacus" things, I don't think I'm buying.
 
2012-12-20 05:05:42 PM

skullkrusher: crazyeddie: TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.

hey Eddie - you're a moron,

Love,
God


Which god? And why does he need my tax dollars to get his message out? We need to end solcial welfare for churches: Let them stand on their own two feet. They use fire, police, roads, social services, and yet are tax exempt. I say make them pay their fair share.

Surely you support such bootstrappiness, right Skully?
 
2012-12-20 05:09:08 PM

SocraticIrony: I'll declare this a victory then.


Of course you will dear. But you'e NOT TROLLING!1!! You're saving me a fortune on cable and way funnier than fat redneck girls in sketchy beauty pageants. Come on, gimmie the Big Troll™ You know, , the one that sends you into a dick squeezing lip biting frenzy while you high five your friends in 8th grade! You can do it, water boy! : )
 
2012-12-20 05:09:08 PM

bunner: orbister: People. Will. Go. Along. With. Almost. Anything. If. It. Saves. Their. Lives.

So?


So exploiting their weakness is wrong. If only there was some religion which took the side of the weak against the powerful, eh?
 
2012-12-20 05:09:15 PM

crazyeddie: skullkrusher: crazyeddie: TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.

hey Eddie - you're a moron,

Love,
God

Which god? And why does he need my tax dollars to get his message out? We need to end solcial welfare for churches: Let them stand on their own two feet. They use fire, police, roads, social services, and yet are tax exempt. I say make them pay their fair share.

Surely you support such bootstrappiness, right Skully?


Turns out the skullcrusher was correct. You are crazy. Sadly, you mixed it with a whole bunch of stupid. That never turns out well.
 
2012-12-20 05:09:29 PM
>as far as I can tell, it is 100% dedicated to providing health care services to impoverished people with no mention of proselytization.

Right...http://www.mercyships.org/pray/
 
2012-12-20 05:10:02 PM

kendelrio: Oh ya? Well you eat POO!!


My Dad's bigger than your Dad.
 
2012-12-20 05:11:27 PM
bunner You got a manual for that gymnastic dead end? Cause if this is one of those "I have a complete list of debate fallacies and an abacus" things, I don't think I'm buying.

I have no idea who summoned you or what you're rabbiting on about. I will poke you with the tip of my umbrella if you come any closer.
 
2012-12-20 05:14:51 PM
fark this guy...
Ask his Athiest group how much they made in donations last year...
Asshole.
 
2012-12-20 05:18:59 PM

letrole: bunner You got a manual for that gymnastic dead end? Cause if this is one of those "I have a complete list of debate fallacies and an abacus" things, I don't think I'm buying.

I have no idea who summoned you or what you're rabbiting on about. I will poke you with the tip of my umbrella if you come any closer.


It seems we have a common concern.
 
2012-12-20 05:19:50 PM

letrole: Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.


I agree. How's your sarcasm detector?
 
2012-12-20 05:21:11 PM

crazyeddie: skullkrusher: crazyeddie: TL;DR: Christians are filthy and they should feel ashamed for trying to use public monies for their superstition. Shame on you if you defend them.

hey Eddie - you're a moron,

Love,
God

Which god? And why does he need my tax dollars to get his message out? We need to end solcial welfare for churches: Let them stand on their own two feet. They use fire, police, roads, social services, and yet are tax exempt. I say make them pay their fair share.

Surely you support such bootstrappiness, right Skully?


well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.
 
2012-12-20 05:25:22 PM

jack21221: ibsalamander:

And I think there are some doctors in Africa who might argue that this man did do something wrong.

They're still getting their money, and the concert is being held by the church, not the school. I fail to see what's wrong about that. Can you please point it out to me?


You give me far too much credit. Didn't RTFA, just picked up on the (apparently manufactured) indignation.

Just the same, reading through the comments it's clear that the "atheist = super-douche" meme isn't going away anytime soon.
 
2012-12-20 05:25:26 PM

orbister: kendelrio: Oh ya? Well you eat POO!!

My Dad's bigger than your Dad.


Well... You're mom is so fat she swears GRAVY!
 
2012-12-20 05:28:13 PM
letrole: Argument by charges of logical fallacy is the last refuge of the man who has lost the real argument.

orbister: I agree. How's your sarcasm detector?

My sarcasm detector has barely flickered.

But my bullshiat detector is spinning so wildly that I reversed the leads to power my laptop.
 
2012-12-20 05:38:15 PM

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I support everything this man is doing. People like this are a big part of the reason why the United States has never become a haven for radical, fundamentalist religion unlike Afghanistan, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Sudan...
 
2012-12-20 05:39:03 PM

skullkrusher: well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.


I'll try to be as patient as I can. You can pray. You can pray all you want. You cannot use my tax dollars to coerce others into praying. Here's a handy quiz:

Crazyeddie believes that people shouldn't be allowed to pray:
T
F

Money I can use to convince people to pray can come from:
B. The Federal Government
E. The State government
H. Local Government, but only if it's for a good cause
U. Private institutions


Answer key: FU
 
2012-12-20 05:43:29 PM
Christianity is a religion!
 
2012-12-20 05:45:08 PM
the church group is "Mercy Ships" a bunch of Dominionist scum.
 
2012-12-20 05:48:29 PM

MadMattressMack: skullkrusher: "The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "

I think that 'splains it better

Maybe, but you gotta pick your battles. While I'm sure the DOE could've rectified the situation without shutting the event down or perhaps the principal / super should've had better oversight of the event's funding and planning (that's their screw up), this success doesn't help Mitch's cause. Rather, it makes more people go to a religious event.

Mitch,

[www.patentspostgrant.com image 480x360]


Couldn't pass by this comment without replying.

This man, and atheists at large even, are not trying to stop people from attending a religious event. The point is to keep church and state separate. Period. He accomplished that goal by stopping a public school orchestra from performing a fundraising event for a church. If people choose to attend a church event put on to support the church then that's great for them.
 
2012-12-20 05:50:11 PM
Atheists demand respect and expect acceptance of their beliefs. Atheists feel dirty inside. All the anger, the forced arrogance, the belligerence -- it's simply shame turned inside out.
 
2012-12-20 05:50:53 PM

crazyeddie: skullkrusher: well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.

I'll try to be as patient as I can. You can pray. You can pray all you want. You cannot use my tax dollars to coerce others into praying.


Who is coercing? Who is being coerced?

Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?
 
2012-12-20 05:50:58 PM

letrole: buckler: Le Troll is your surname.


And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.


Tsk, tsk...very unchristan of you.
 
2012-12-20 05:53:54 PM

crazyeddie: skullkrusher: well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.

I'll try to be as patient as I can. You can pray. You can pray all you want. You cannot use my tax dollars to coerce others into praying. Here's a handy quiz:

Crazyeddie believes that people shouldn't be allowed to pray:
T
F

Money I can use to convince people to pray can come from:
B. The Federal Government
E. The State government
H. Local Government, but only if it's for a good cause
U. Private institutions


Answer key: FU


Christians are dirty:
T
F
 
If you read the thread, you'd see that I think this attention whore was correct in this case. While you're absolutely besides yourself about the egregious overstepping of the separation of church and state in years past with regards to this school, church and charity bear in mind that not only does your tax dollars fund houses of worship, you PAY clergymembers to minister to members of the ministry. Better put a stop to that.
 
2012-12-20 05:54:57 PM

Cybernetic: crazyeddie: skullkrusher: well, it was really about your blanket "Christians are dirty" comment as well as your smoking gun of a link to a prayer portion of their website where they encourage people to pray for several causes. Truly, they are history's greatest monsters.

I'll try to be as patient as I can. You can pray. You can pray all you want. You cannot use my tax dollars to coerce others into praying.

Who is coercing? Who is being coerced?

Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?


Click the link he provided. They log your IP and send jackbooted thugs to your house to make you say the Our Father.
 
2012-12-20 05:57:31 PM

Cybernetic: Who is coercing? Who is being coerced? Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?


PUBLIC school fundraiser for a CHURCH MISSION. You may not like the word coerce; feel free to substitute it with another that assuages your cognitive dissonance.

You can pray. You can be religious and spread the good word all you want. You can't use my money to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?
 
2012-12-20 06:00:56 PM
buckler: Le Troll is your surname.
letrole: And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.
buckler: Tsk, tsk...very unchristan of you.


I'm not obligated to date the obese and gormless, and I'm certainly not required to step in as a new daddy for a ragamuffin.
 
2012-12-20 06:02:04 PM

crazyeddie: Why is this so hard to understand?


Maybe because the type of person who believes in ghosts and magic isn't going to be too keen on using simple logic? Just a guess.
 
2012-12-20 06:02:40 PM

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.


Want to know how I know you don't know what the fark you're talking about?

/know
//read, motherfarker!!!
 
2012-12-20 06:04:28 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-20 06:05:44 PM

bunner: Before bowing out of the sliding board politics clusterf*ck of insufferable semantic weenie waving that this thread is destined to become, I would like to state that, personally, I do not give a William nor Nilliam, polly wolly doo dah f*ck if the money was raised by nuns farting through kazoos, put in a bank account run by Rastafarian Druids, shipped there on some televangelist's private flying whorehouse and dipped in holy water by a congressional page who then hand delivers it to whatever outfit gets some kids medical care. And if you do, you are the fifty foot tall dinosaur skeleton in the museum of not getting it.


*golf clap*

That was beautiful. Where do I sign up for your newsletter?
 
2012-12-20 06:07:22 PM
I just have one question.

What's his FARK handle?
 
2012-12-20 06:07:36 PM

Void_Beavis: Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.

Want to know how I know you don't know what the fark you're talking about?

/know
//read, motherfarker!!!


Welcome to Fark?
 
2012-12-20 06:08:28 PM

umad: crazyeddie: Why is this so hard to understand?

Maybe because the type of person who believes in ghosts and magic isn't going to be too keen on using simple logic? Just a guess.


Favorited. You are green5.
 
2012-12-20 06:09:01 PM

bunner: SocraticIrony: I'll declare this a victory then.

Of course you will dear. But you'e NOT TROLLING!1!! You're saving me a fortune on cable and way funnier than fat redneck girls in sketchy beauty pageants. Come on, gimmie the Big Troll™ You know, , the one that sends you into a dick squeezing lip biting frenzy while you high five your friends in 8th grade! You can do it, water boy! : )


You fantasize about 8th graders masturbating? Gross.
 
2012-12-20 06:13:44 PM

Charlie Chingas: Void_Beavis: Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.

Want to know how I know you don't know what the fark you're talking about?

/know
//read, motherfarker!!!

Welcome to Fark?


Indeed.
 
2012-12-20 06:19:58 PM
A house of worship getting involved in public affairs in Hawaii? Happens all the time.
 
2012-12-20 06:21:50 PM

letrole: buckler: Le Troll is your surname.
letrole: And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.
buckler: Tsk, tsk...very unchristan of you.


I'm not obligated to date the obese and gormless, and I'm certainly not required to step in as a new daddy for a ragamuffin.


Careful, now...you're going off-script.
 
2012-12-20 06:55:25 PM
buckler: Le Troll is your surname.
letrole: And if your mum had her way, it would be yours as well.
buckler: Tsk, tsk...very unchristan of you.
letrole: I'm not obligated to date the obese and gormless, and I'm certainly not required to step in as a new daddy for a ragamuffin.
buckler: Careful, now...you're going off-script.

So let's get back on-script.

For the next scene, you blurt some sort of ad-libbed non-sequitur and just stand there with a dumb look on your face by that floor mark over there. I'll come back across the stage and roundhouse kick you through the fake window.

We'll pickup with an exterior shot. You'll get up, make that wubbity wubbity sound like Bugs Bunny, then go shrieking down the backlot about how you're being mistreated. You'll go around the corner and run through the marked door.

The final part of the scene resumes with an interior shot of you flopping down in front of a pc terminal where you immediately begin logging in to progressive message boards where you make snide remarks about the standards of the community. As the segue begins, you crack a sardonic creepy smile whilst joining in an Atheist circle-jerk on Reddit. A few extras will appear alongside and you all begin to yiff.
 
2012-12-20 06:55:38 PM

crazyeddie: Cybernetic: Who is coercing? Who is being coerced? Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?

PUBLIC school fundraiser for a CHURCH MISSION. You may not like the word coerce; feel free to substitute it with another that assuages your cognitive dissonance.

You can pray. You can be religious and spread the good word all you want. You can't use my money to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?


In a hundred years or so, we'll look back and think it was so odd and strange that we had all these churches all over the place trying to shove their views down our throats. And that we tolerated it.

Sorry, kids, you can't raise money for a Christianist mission on school grounds in a school event paid for by taxpayers. Take it elsewhere.
 
2012-12-20 07:00:30 PM
SoxSweepAgain: In a hundred years or so, we'll look back and think it was so odd and strange that we had all these churches all over the place trying to shove their views down our throats. And that we tolerated it.


Every libertine for the last 250 years has said that.
 
2012-12-20 07:24:06 PM
Unlike the people upthread, I'm happy with the work that this guy is doing.
No amount of bias in that shiat article hides the fact that he's right, and even the dreaded ACLU works with him!
 
2012-12-20 07:32:15 PM

letrole: So let's get back on-script.


(extensive fantasy sequence)
 
My, you have spent a lot of time thinking of me. I'm flattered.
 
2012-12-20 08:13:37 PM

Charlie Chingas: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.

0.5/10

Really? Damn. For a moment I thought I had a good one. Man, I'm bad at this. I guess it's back to Craig's List anon meetings...


I've heard that the CL Man Seeking Man forum is a lot more forgiving.
 
2012-12-20 08:15:42 PM

letrole: Atheists demand respect and expect acceptance of their beliefs. Atheists feel dirty inside. All the anger, the forced arrogance, the belligerence -- it's simply shame turned inside out.


I know, right? I just hate those atheists, with their belligerence and shame turned inside out!!!!!

Shame that Atheism will soon become the one true (sic) Religion.
 
2012-12-20 09:17:48 PM
The problem with asshole atheists like this loser is that it's not enough for them to deny there is a God; they need EVERY ONE else to deny there is a God, also.

If they were true atheists they wouldn't care and couldn't care less about what others believe but instead this piece of shiate wants to force everyone else to believe has he does even if
1) he has a facts completely wrong
and
2) people DIE for lack of medical treatment this money would have provided.

Good thing this piece of shiate lives far, far away...
 
2012-12-20 10:52:39 PM

xmasbaby: skullkrusher: orbister: Flakeloaf: In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

So the price of being one of their patients is that local churches get to try to convert you when your helpless in a hospital bed. I wonder if they give equal access to local imams and animists?

I wonder if a person whose life is saved by an emergency appendectomy gives a fark?

I used to participate in some "medical missions" to 3rd world countries as a anesthesiologist, but became disillusioned at how the skill and technology I brought was used as tool to convert my patients to whatever the trip sponsors were selling.

In fact, I once ruined a sure thing with a super hot Delta stewardess who asked me if I was spreading the word of god on my medical mission. I told her "No. These people already have all the religion they could ever want. What they really need is some help..


Maybe it's just my optimism that had me believing they could keep their bullshiat to themselves. Oh well.
 
2012-12-20 10:53:46 PM

crazyeddie: From their Website:
Prayer has been an integral part of Mercy Ships decades-long history. Join with those around the world who uphold the work of Mercy Ships in prayer.

And yet here come the christains and supposed atheists to tell us how we must shut up and take it while our tax dollars support proselyzation:
Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.
ArkAngel: What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this.
BuckTurgidson: [i14.photobucket.com image 54x11] You're not helping
OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.
Flakeloaf: Mercy Ships is not a religious organization
xanadian: Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

Great Porn Dragon Nailed it:
a) As noted above, Mercy Ships is pretty much a front group of culty NARasites Youth With A Mission (who are in turn pretty much a front group of the NARasitic wing of the Assemblies of God, which is pretty much the majority in that denomination now).

b) New Hope Oahu is--surprise surprise surprise--a happy-clappy den of NARasites with links to a parent NARasitic congregation in Hilo with no obvious denominational affiliation (though both seem to be linked to a lot of NARasite paradenominations)--it took a fair amount of digging (finding some "leadership training" thing on the New Hope Hilo page, which seems to do all it can to hide anything about any affiliations whatsoever) to find there is linkage with an accreditation mill with a statement of faith very, very similar to that of the Assemblies of God--it took even more digging to find we're dealing with essentially an ordination mill run by International Foursquare, which is itself not only an "Assemblies daughter" but very NARasitic itself. (It's probably most (in)famous as Aimee Semple McPherson's "radio church"--McPherson being one of the first well-known "name it and claim it" radio televangelists, and one o ...


And now I know.... the rest of the story.
 
2012-12-21 03:16:52 AM
... just when I thought the gun nuts were the nuttiest ...

/note to self: contact Almond Joy, play them off against PayDay.
//...they're the same company?
///this is bigger and nuttier than I thought!
 
2012-12-21 10:27:13 AM

crazyeddie: Cybernetic: Who is coercing? Who is being coerced? Or is there some obscure secondary or tertiary definition of "coerce" that Merriam and Webster and Funk and Wagnalls all missed?

PUBLIC school fundraiser for a CHURCH MISSION. You may not like the word coerce; feel free to substitute it with another that assuages your cognitive dissonance.

You can pray. You can be religious and spread the good word all you want. You can't use my money to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?


My cognititve dissonance? You may want to research the meaning of that term, right after you're done reading the definition of "coerce":

co·erce
verb (used with object), co·erced, co·erc·ing.
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

As for your position being "hard to understand," you've actually made it quite plain. I take issue with your tendentious--and utterly incorrect--use of the word "coerce" to describe a situation that is not coercive in the least.

We all get that you have a problem with religion. And you're certainly allowed to have one. But when you use language in ridiculous ways, there will be times that you get called on it.
 
2012-12-21 12:07:05 PM
letrole: So let's get back on-script.

(extensive fantasy sequence)

buckler: My, you have spent a lot of time thinking of me. I'm flattered.


It was written long ago. I haven't had much luck casting the part until you just popped up.
 
2012-12-21 05:01:13 PM

Flakeloaf: [www.patentspostgrant.com image 480x360]

I'm a staunch agnostic and no fan of organized religion or its infiltration into the state. I bristle at the obvious bias TFA has for people like me. And even I think this guy is an insufferable AW coonthammer who needs to be punched in the dick with a glove made of crucifixes.

Mercy Ships is not a religious organization, they're an organization of religious people who put their faith into action by doing good things for people for free because that's what they think their messianic figure would do. I have mad respect for that. Some incidental evangelism is unavoidable when working with a group like that, but I couldn't find anything on their site that said they actively promoted a church. In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

I thought island people treated each other with aloha.


The problem lies in the extremism on both sides. It sucks we can't all just get along.
 
2012-12-21 11:54:20 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs.

I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.

I'm an antidominionist, and normally I'd think this is overenthusiastic--but I also know that Mercy Ships is basically a front group of the (very very NARasitic and very very culty-McCulterson) Youth With A Mission--and anything that stops dominionist NARasite Culty McCultersons from getting cash to continue a "Convert to neopentecostalism or you DON'T get the lifesaving/vision-saving/productivity-saving medical treatment" is JUST fine with me.

Seriously, Mercy Ships is not innocuous. At All. They explicitly promote themselves as a "Christian alternative" to secular and non-proselytising Christian medical charities (stuff like Doctors Without Borders or Presbyterian and Friends-linked medical charities or even One Great Hour of Sharing)--and have operated on a convert-or-no-medical-treatment and are best seen as an overt "bait-and-switch evangelism" front of the worst sort.


.......

THOSE SNEAKSY CHRISTIANSES! WE HATES THEM, PRECIOUS!!

/but seriously, that is f*cking low
//what else do you expect from those who affiliate with the Prop 8 crowd
 
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