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(Hawaii Reporter)   A Hawaiian High School Orchestra raises $30,000 for doctors in Africa, but people from a church worked on the setup? Never fear, The First Amendment FUD Brigade is there to make sure this atrocity doesn't happen again   (hawaiireporter.com) divider line 247
    More: Sick, First Amendment, arrests, Department of Transportation, Hawaii, Christian churches, HPD, new instruments  
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9437 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 3:01 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 01:01:52 PM  
I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.
 
2012-12-20 01:09:04 PM  
What a farking douche twat. There is no case law that says government institutions can't work with religious institutions on projects. The church gets nothing out of this. The school gets some regular volunteers. The charity gets $60,000 a year.
 
Let's put this to the Lemon test
 
1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
 
It is setting up a holiday concert for it's choral group. Perfectly secular.
 
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
 
As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.
 
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
 
A single event that is completely run by the school district and only gets some help from parishioners does not entangle excessively.
 
Seems like a pass to me.
 
2012-12-20 01:35:03 PM  
It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.
 
2012-12-20 01:57:34 PM  

Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.


Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.
 
2012-12-20 02:11:08 PM  

ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.


The problem with that general definition, if one wants to use it, is that there are actual Hawaiian schools here, meaning schools that are attended only by people of Hawaiian descent.  Moanalua High School is not one of these. 
 
Also, If the school in the article were in Los Angeles it would be referred to as a California high school or a Los Angeles high school, not a Californian or Los Angelino high school.
 
2012-12-20 02:21:49 PM  

Brettster808: ArkAngel: Brettster808: It is a Hawaii high school, not a Hawaiian high school. 
 
A Hawaiian high school would be a school for people of Hawaiian descent.
 
/lives down the street from Moanalua High School mentioned in the article.

Both are correct. It is a high school in Hawai'i which makes it a Hawai'ian high school.

The problem with that general definition, if one wants to use it, is that there are actual Hawaiian schools here, meaning schools that are attended only by people of Hawaiian descent.  Moanalua High School is not one of these. 
 
Also, If the school in the article were in Los Angeles it would be referred to as a California high school or a Los Angeles high school, not a Californian or Los Angelino high school.


Hawai'ian is both a term for the native inhabitants and for the residents overall. Adding the "n," "ite," or "ian" to the end of a place name refers to things that belong to that particular region. It doesn't work quite as well for other places as it does for Hawai'i, so using it in that way would be grammatically improper, but it works perfectly for Hawai'i.
 
2012-12-20 02:23:34 PM  

ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.


Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.
 
2012-12-20 02:30:04 PM  
FTFA: Kahle appears to enjoy the media attention

Christians have WBC. Atheists have this guy.

*facepalm*
 
2012-12-20 02:36:45 PM  
*reads more of TFA*

I donno...Kahle may have had strong arguments for some of those things, and there's nothing wrong with due diligence, but WOW does he go overboard. The First Amendment guarantees that government can't press a religion (or religion in general) on its populace. Church members that *happen* to be volunteering at a school-organized event does not qualify.

And I'm all for someone not wanting to believe in God. I can tolerate someone thinking those who believe in God are morons. But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against. And I f*cking HATE hypocrites more than anything else on the planet. Even more than the Beeb. And that's saying a lot.

What I'd really like to see is this guy and the WBC people at the same rally. That would be fun to watch.
 
2012-12-20 02:43:30 PM  

Theaetetus: ArkAngel: As said before, the church gets nothing out of this except some volunteer opportunities and maybe some good press that any group would get from this. It doesn't advance religion.

Don't know about that... there may be some more involvement, big signage, etc. If it was just that "some volunteers happen to be church employees," I doubt it would have ever been an issue in the first place, and I doubt the DOE would cancel it.


According to another article (mostly behind a paywall), the event was named similar to the New Hope church and was apparently pretty tied to them:  http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=182772291
 
That seems to be confirmed by the DOE's statement:
Donalyn Dela Cruz, director of Communications for the DOE, said the decision announced Monday to cancel the Friday concert was made by the DOE after consultation with the Attorney General's office.

"The Department applauds both the students who were hoping to provide this concert, as well as the charitable purpose behind it. However, after some consideration, the Department realized that the concert could have been better structured," Dela Cruz said.
 
2012-12-20 02:45:52 PM  
And Mercy Ships apparently isn't all that secular.
 
2012-12-20 02:47:45 PM  
Oh, and the replacement concert?
The new charity concert is not a State of Hawaii Department of Education event, nor is it endorsed or affiliated with Moanalua High School or the State of Hawaii. It will be a Christian concert.
 
2012-12-20 02:50:25 PM  
Just to clarify - I'm not saying that the concert definitely violated the Lemon test, just that there seems to be a lot of details that are missing from that biased article.
 
2012-12-20 03:04:04 PM  
They should have blessed the rains instead
 
2012-12-20 03:06:30 PM  
Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.
 
2012-12-20 03:07:46 PM  
I think I'm going to start a charitable homeopathic monetary fund.  Add a single cent and everyone in Africa will be rich beyond their wildest dreams.
 
2012-12-20 03:07:56 PM  
It's interesting but depressing that the people who want the second amendment followed to the letter are often the people who give no such authority to the first amendment. Good heavens, it's almost as if they only quote the Bible constitution when it supports their own prejudices.
 
2012-12-20 03:08:26 PM  

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS and medicine and dental care being shoved down my throat.


 
2012-12-20 03:10:17 PM  
The ACLU isn't the problem- they defend attacks on the constitution. The authorities who listened to this clown are. Why is it true that the concert isn't acceptable due to a church helping, but it would have been acceptable with this guy helping? Who's to decide that what he believes isn't a religion? He's got a set of views about where we are in the universe, what we should do with problems, what happens when we die- that sounds a lot like what he's fighting against.
 
2012-12-20 03:10:32 PM  

Dinobot: I'm an atheist and I think this is bs. 
 
I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


I hate relgious nuts like Kahle.
 
2012-12-20 03:10:35 PM  

Charlie Chingas: Good for them! Tired of all this christian BS being shoved down my throat.


0.5/10
 
2012-12-20 03:10:50 PM  
That's not atheism, that's just some good old fashioned trolling.
 
2012-12-20 03:11:27 PM  
That's a nice, concise, easily-readable headline ya got there, subs.
 
2012-12-20 03:11:38 PM  
This ain't cool, brah.
 
2012-12-20 03:12:06 PM  
i14.photobucket.com You're not helping
 
2012-12-20 03:12:11 PM  
Maybe I'm retarded but...WTF does that headline even mean?
 
2012-12-20 03:12:15 PM  
I'm so bored with the Orthodox Atheists constantly searching for something to get their panties in a wad about. They're like the internet version of race baiters.

These kids raise hundreds of thousands of dollars to help needy people in Africa, and you're against it? Fark you.

When was the last time you saw an atheist soup kitchen set up? When was the last time you saw an atheist homeless shelter?

A couple of years ago I saw a U.S. government report estimating that the Catholic Church has spent over one TRILLION (yes, with a T) dollars helping the victims of the human trafficking industry around the world. What the fark have atheists done for the helpless?

Jack squat, that's what.
 
jvl
2012-12-20 03:12:29 PM  

Dinobot: I feel really sorry for the kids and their altruistic plans, and I'd like to apologize on behalf of moderate atheists while don't believe are not out there actively trying to kill everyone else's fun.


Unless you are a ass-covering retarded person working at Hawaii's Department of Education, you have nothing to apologize for. A crazy person writing a letter is still just a crazy person.

/ Christian
 
2012-12-20 03:13:07 PM  
It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.
 
2012-12-20 03:13:28 PM  
I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.
 
2012-12-20 03:13:30 PM  
Wow! Old News is exciting!

As when I first saw this I'll ask the question again, why not just move the event to a different venue? What nobody willing to donate a concert hall or something?
 
2012-12-20 03:13:37 PM  
"The problem -- which led Matayoshi to cancel last Friday's Christmas concert at Moanalua High School because it was too intertwined with a New Hope Oahu church fundraising effort -- stemmed from a change in the "Gift of Hope Charity Concert" since the event's origins several years ago. The Moanalua orchestra had worked with New Hope Oahu's singers in past events, which served as a benefit for Mercy Ships, a charity that provides the world's poor with medical care.
However, this year the beneficiary seemed to be the church's own mission. Mitch Kahle, founder of Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church, noted that no charity was listed. When he asked how to get tickets, he was instructed to get them from the church at a service, where he was told to write out the check to New Hope. "
 
I think that 'splains it better
 
2012-12-20 03:14:13 PM  
I can't help but feel like there may be more to this story than TFA is telling.
 
2012-12-20 03:14:22 PM  

Cybernetic: It is possible to be a atheist without being a dick, just as it is possible to be a Christian without being a dick.

Mitch Kahle is a dick.


Yikes. "a atheist"? I gotta proofread before I click Submit.
 
2012-12-20 03:15:31 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: This ain't cool, brah.


What is not cool? Writing a letter to Department of Education? Lots of cranks write all kinds of letters. They could have ignored him and if he filed a lawsuit let the law talking dudes figure out if it was legal, but no the DOE went and shut it down. If anything it is not the atheist that is to blame, but the farking bureaucrat.
 
2012-12-20 03:15:55 PM  
I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.
 
2012-12-20 03:17:00 PM  

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.


he seems like an AAW to a great degree but he's probably right this time around.
 
/atheist attention whore
//oftentimes redundant
 
2012-12-20 03:17:37 PM  
I'll bet if they kidnap and torture the atheist, he'll be begging for God's mercy in no time. Problem solved.
 
2012-12-20 03:17:50 PM  
What's that you say? They're violating the First Amendment? Meh.

Wait, someone's talking about violating the Second Amendment? Time to git mah guns an' defend the Constitution to the DEATH.
 
2012-12-20 03:18:30 PM  
But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against.

So, atheists should just STFU, cuz there's not really any god-promoting in our government, right?

//
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR,
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under no God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
 
2012-12-20 03:18:41 PM  
And, as always, people are rushing to judgement even though the article has almost no actual information in it.

Yea, as presented, the article sounds like this is a matter of one person being mighty stupid.

But I'm supposed to ignore the fact that the only point of view presented is from a local talk radio host, the "journalist" wrote his own obvious biases into it and there's no explanation as to why, exactly, the concert was actually cancelled? The whole thing reads like a freakin' hit piece.

But no, I'm sure that TFA presents the whole story accurately and completely. Sure...
 
2012-12-20 03:18:53 PM  
Mercy Ships is a religious organization. The state of Hawaii should not let New Hope Oahu church use their resources, or those of a public high school which they fund, as a vehicle for this fundraiser.

If NHO had the clout, they'd just do it themselves. No problem at all.
 
2012-12-20 03:19:02 PM  
Sometimes, I wonder if we are actually doing Africa and her people any favors by providing lots of aid.

It is well documented that food dumps are just as likely to end up feeding the local warlord as opposed to the people who actually need it.

We spend millions to bring water to villages; but don't take the time to make sure the people will use it. One example I remember; an aid group spent 6 months building a pipeline for a village, only to have the people not use it, because they thought the source was haunted.

/ Aid is all well and good; and some does get where it is most needed. But, do we actually make their lives better; or do we make them more of a target for the neighboring tribe?
 
2012-12-20 03:20:07 PM  

Saners: I like how "just hours before the show" is actually "five days before the show."

I'm sure this article is in no way bias.


Possibly one of the most one-sided articles I've seen outside Fox news and the UK tabloid media
 
2012-12-20 03:20:29 PM  
I have attended several schools that double as churches on weekends, usually while their new church is being built. I've never heard of anyone objecting to that.

Prolly not a lot of atheists here, though.
 
2012-12-20 03:20:54 PM  
While he gets his panties in a knot about church workers volunteering to help out at a fundraiser completely ran otherwise by a state-funded entity, the majority of us here on the mainland have to deal with shiat like 'no liquor on Sunday because that's the lord's day and he commanded it herp derp' or 'you cannot sell liquor by the drink unless you also sell food because if you drink and don't eat it is a sin unto the almighty jesus christ.' Right there in the law books.
 
2012-12-20 03:21:23 PM  
an atheist activist

This has to be the most pathetic thing I have ever read. Seriously. "Activism" for non-belief? At the expense of charity? Oh, I am so impressed.
 
2012-12-20 03:21:33 PM  
www.patentspostgrant.com

I'm a staunch agnostic and no fan of organized religion or its infiltration into the state. I bristle at the obvious bias TFA has for people like me. And even I think this guy is an insufferable AW coonthammer who needs to be punched in the dick with a glove made of crucifixes.

Mercy Ships is not a religious organization, they're an organization of religious people who put their faith into action by doing good things for people for free because that's what they think their messianic figure would do. I have mad respect for that. Some incidental evangelism is unavoidable when working with a group like that, but I couldn't find anything on their site that said they actively promoted a church. In fact, they even said they "invited local churches" to minister to their patients.

I thought island people treated each other with aloha.
 
2012-12-20 03:22:00 PM  

OgreMagi: I'm another athiest who thinks this guy is an asshole.


Triple here. Mercy Ships seems to be a somewhat religious organization, but they get doctors to people who need them, and that's cool. I'd be happier if the beneficiary were Doctors Without Borders, but at least they're not just handing out Bibles and saying "see ya!"
 
2012-12-20 03:22:32 PM  

SisterMaryElephant: But when you start pressing your world view on other people THROUGH GOVERNMENT, you're doing exactly what you're protesting against.

So, atheists should just STFU, cuz there's not really any god-promoting in our government, right?

//
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR,
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
OR
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under no God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


We should keep "under God" in there. It's what helps people in Sierra Leone struggle on - knowing that no matter how rough they have it, they can take solace in the fact that unbelieving Americans live under the tyranny of the Pledge of Allegiance
 
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