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(KFYI)   According to the CDC, in 2015 more people will die from gunshot wounds than car accidents in the US for the first time ever   (politics.kfyi.com) divider line 261
    More: Sad, gun deaths, gunshot wound  
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3042 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Dec 2012 at 12:56 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 02:04:08 PM  

homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....


bradycenter.org

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.
 
2012-12-20 02:05:07 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: I need to hit them up for some stock tips.

 
I'd invest heavily in the feral boar meat sector.
 
2012-12-20 02:05:20 PM  
Let's bring back the ban on bayonet lugs and pistol grips, that will address the problem!
 
2012-12-20 02:06:43 PM  

OgreMagi: Charlie Chingas: We can prevent this by banning guns. There. Problem solved. You're welcome.

Fortunately the criminal types are such law abidding citizens who will happily turn in their illegal weapons when the ban takes affect.  You're a farking genius!


Solving the world's problems one at a time.
 
2012-12-20 02:06:50 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The effect of a specific kind of bullet on a person is static. Our bullets have changed a lot, though - from powdered musket balls to 7.62 FMJ and beyond - and each type has a slightly different effect. To say nothing of hollow points, composition of the round(/jacket), the type of powder used and how much, the weight/shape of the round...


Yeah.  I guess I should be more specific, since what I'm really referring to is the kinds of bullets that civilians have used to kill other unarmored civilians with over the last 20-40 years, rather than a long term historical comparison or any comment on military advancements.
 
2012-12-20 02:11:52 PM  

Snargi: Death by firearms isn't even in the top 15 causes of death in this country. The data that backs this up is in this document from the CDC.


Don't be fatuous. Everyone is supposed to die eventually. Most deaths occur to old people. We aren't talking about "death control," we're talking about "murder control." The gun is the #1-by-a-long-shot weapon of choice for murder and suicide in this country.

There are, it may surprise you to know, also people working quite diligently on dropping the rate of cancer, heart disease, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and other disease-related deaths as well.
 
2012-12-20 02:11:58 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: voltOhm: So the CDC is freaking psychic now? It's not even 2013 yet. The fear Mongers are working overtime on this one. The funny thing is the people spouting this nonsense are the same people that are pro-population control through abortions. Freaking cowardly idiots.

Now that's how you troll.

We've got it all here folks. Random capitalization, ad hominem attacks, pants on the head stupidity, and the turd is deposited right out of the gate.


The CDC is trolling us?
 
2012-12-20 02:12:10 PM  

you have pee hands: dittybopper: See how the car death rate drops like a rock right around 2007? Fewer people were driving because they lost their cars:

U.S. Car Fleet Shrinks by Four Million in 2009

The only way that trend of car deaths going below gun deaths is possible is if the economy continues to tank. If we have the recovery we all hope for, more people will be on the roads in more cars, and they will bounce back up.


The auto death rate has dropped a lot faster than the number of miles driven.  Cars and roads keep getting safer; the effect of a bullet on a person is pretty much static.


There haven't been any major noticeable improvements in either vehicle safety or road safety that you can point to that account for the sudden drop.

On the other hand, easing congestion by removing millions of vehicles off the road can have benefits out of proportion to the raw numbers, if the roads were at or above safe handling capacity and are now significantly below it.
 
2012-12-20 02:13:52 PM  

Dr Dreidel:
// I'm sure you knew all that, just pointing it out
// just as a Model T, driven today on a dirt road, is just as safe as it was in the 1920s


Your argument is invalid.

That Model T is not at risk of only running into other vehicles capable of a top speed of 40mph. It would now be sharing the road with other much heavier vehicles capable of much greater speeds. Including aggressive, angry drivers in 4x4s that get stuck behind it. Or oncoming traffic who can't see the Model T because of it's woefully poor lighting. Or the Model T's inability to stop in a short enough distance when traveling behind a vehicle with modern brakes.

// I'm sure you knew all that, just pointing it out
 
2012-12-20 02:14:12 PM  

Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.


FTFY. Murdered is murdered. If you just count gun homicides, than a country that where the preferred method of homicide is the gun is going to look worse than a country that has an overall higher homicide rate, but a very low *GUN* homicide rate.
 
2012-12-20 02:16:15 PM  

Olfin Bedwere: justGreg: david_gaithersburg: According to Wiki the US has on of the lowest per capita homicide rates on the planet Link
.

LOL wut? Compared to some starving sub-Saharan African countries maybe. Not compared to the countries that we should be compared to:

Japan 0.3
Germany 0.8
Italy 0.9
UK 1.2
Canada 1.6
USA 4.2

There are 97 countries on that list with a lower homicide rate, including Iraq, Israel, and Afghanistan. We have a homicide problem, and your link verifies it.

/USA - We're number 98!


There are 106 on that list with a higher rate than the US. But they don't count much because they don't fit your criteria, right? It seems to me that the world has a homicide problem, not just the US.


Hey, if you draw great solace and internal peace from having a lower murder rate than El Salvador and Uganda then good on you. I would have thought most Americans aspired to a higher standing in the global community, but whatever.
 
2012-12-20 02:16:16 PM  
unless gunshots are now spec'd as "lead poisoning" how is the CDC a credible source?

\Canadian eh?
\\Walking Dead showed me why not to go to Atlanta
 
2012-12-20 02:21:08 PM  

Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.


Finland 0.45
Australia 0.14
England and Wales 0.07
Spain 0.2
Germany 0.19
Canada 0.51
USA 2.97

Does that help?
 
2012-12-20 02:23:06 PM  
My comment was really dicky.

//I'm sure I know that. Just pointing it out to myself

:-P
 
2012-12-20 02:23:57 PM  
How do those numbers work when you remove suicides?
 
2012-12-20 02:24:39 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: It's not the first time ever; I'm sure this was the case before cars were invented as well. But there is also more here than just "gun violence will destroy us all"... but I'm pretty sure we'll hear what they are.


I read an abstract by someone who looked at causes of death before the automobile. Which answered the question, why did society tolerate the carnage caused by automobiles? Turns out horses, trains, and trolleys are dangerous. Apparently significant numbers of people died in rail accidents up until the 1950's Fatalities that were mostly replaced by automobile accidents. Granted modern airplanes and passenger rail are very safe, much safer than cars.

One nice thing about guns, you can significantly reduce your risk by not owning one. And further by not associating with people that do.
 
2012-12-20 02:25:08 PM  

sweetmelissa31: I'd invest heavily in the feral boar meat sector.

 
Actually, I would invest in an outfitting company like these guys did. (Check the video link. You might be surprised at what you see)
 
2012-12-20 02:26:34 PM  

Pangea: That Model T is not at risk of only running into other vehicles capable of a top speed of 40mph. It would now be sharing the road with other much heavier vehicles capable of much greater speeds. Including aggressive, angry drivers in 4x4s that get stuck behind it. Or oncoming traffic who can't see the Model T because of it's woefully poor lighting. Or the Model T's inability to stop in a short enough distance when traveling behind a vehicle with modern brakes.

// I'm sure you knew all that, just pointing it out


Considering the Model T isn't "street legal" in modern times without modifications to make it so (exhaust, braking, airbags/seatbelts, etc), none of those really matters. Hell, get 9 Model Ts together on a dirt racetrack to "simulate" the driving conditions in 1920. Besides which, none of the things you mentioned have much to do with the car or the road specifically (which is what I said), or have the same risks as they did then (other drivers not being able to see the Model T, for example).
 
Or don't, as we've sufficiently picked apart the metaphor as to lose all meaning.
 
// and you have pee hands: I wasn't trying to be a pedantic dick, but succeeded anyway
 
2012-12-20 02:27:15 PM  

EngineerAU: What? This is an outrage! We must solve this by removing the CDC's funding!

Link


I was not aware of this until a couple of days ago. I therefore now know the NRA (and probably a good portion of its membership) isn't just a knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing inconvenience on the American social and political scene, they're downright malicious and - on a certain level, given how reliable data would ultimately help save lives - CRUEL.
 
2012-12-20 02:27:43 PM  

justGreg: Olfin Bedwere: justGreg: david_gaithersburg: According to Wiki the US has on of the lowest per capita homicide rates on the planet Link
.

LOL wut? Compared to some starving sub-Saharan African countries maybe. Not compared to the countries that we should be compared to:

Japan 0.3
Germany 0.8
Italy 0.9
UK 1.2
Canada 1.6
USA 4.2

There are 97 countries on that list with a lower homicide rate, including Iraq, Israel, and Afghanistan. We have a homicide problem, and your link verifies it.

/USA - We're number 98!

There are 106 on that list with a higher rate than the US. But they don't count much because they don't fit your criteria, right? It seems to me that the world has a homicide problem, not just the US.

Hey, if you draw great solace and internal peace from having a lower murder rate than El Salvador and Uganda then good on you. I would have thought most Americans aspired to a higher standing in the global community, but whatever.


I don't "draw great solace" from it at all. We can obviously do better as a nation. Still, cherry picking statistics by saying you can only compare the US rate to a handful of other countries doesn't seem to be very helpful to me, and that's what you're doing. Still, it's a free country, and if that's what you want to do, then good on you.
 
2012-12-20 02:27:54 PM  

BronyMedic: Snargi: Death by firearms isn't even in the top 15 causes of death in this country. The data that backs this up is in this document from the CDC.

Trauma - like GSWs that are not intentionally self-inflicted - falls under the category of Accidents (Unintentional Injuries)


You have a valid point but there are innumerable ways to die by accident and we see lots of articles on Fark every year that chronicle bizarre ways to accidentally die.

To break it down further:

From the same CDC doc. pg. 42, Table 2.

In 2011: There were 122,777 deaths by accidents (unintentional injuries) of which accidental discharge of firearms caused 851.

That is only 0.6931265627927055% of the total dead by accident (unintentional injury) killed by firearms. Not even one percent.
 
2012-12-20 02:29:14 PM  

dittybopper: There haven't been any major noticeable improvements in either vehicle safety or road safety that you can point to that account for the sudden drop.

 
On the other hand, easing congestion by removing millions of vehicles off the road can have benefits out of proportion to the raw numbers, if the roads were at or above safe handling capacity and are now significantly below it.
 
That's true, it's mostly just been incremental improvements.  Given that the average car is on the road for 10-15 years it's almost impossible to have any kind of drastic rate drop due to just cars in a couple years anyway, there just isn't that much turnover.  The number of miles driven only dropped 3-4% though, it'd be a little surprising to me to see a 25% drop in fatalities from a drop in congestion that small though there could be a tipping point in there.  The fatality rate per mile driven has been dropping pretty steadily for 45 years, though.  Maybe this is what we should expect and the relatively flatter rate drop in the early 00s is more of the anomaly.
 
2012-12-20 02:34:04 PM  

justGreg: Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.

Finland 0.45
Australia 0.14
England and Wales 0.07
Spain 0.2
Germany 0.19
Canada 0.51
USA 2.97

Does that help?


Actually, it does. But seeing those numbers doesn't have the same shock value which is why the Brady Campaign didn't use percentages for their graphic.
 
2012-12-20 02:35:57 PM  
So.. the Center For Disease Control has spoken for something that isn't a disease.

What's next. The IRS slapping handcuffs on shoplifters?
 
2012-12-20 02:36:22 PM  
Not if we arm school teachers and lock up all the mentally ill people we can find!
 
2012-12-20 02:36:29 PM  
 
2012-12-20 02:39:14 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Charlie Chingas: We can prevent this by banning guns. There. Problem solved. You're welcome.

And fertilizer.
And accelerants.
And projectiles.
And blunt objects.
Any piercing objects.

There are always weapons.

At least with a gun you have a chance to stop/overwhelm the shooter, can't say the same for someone with a bomb.


The deadliest school massacre in US history occurred in 1927, killed 38 elementary-school students and six adults, and injured 58 others.

No guns were used.
 
2012-12-20 02:49:19 PM  

Olfin Bedwere: justGreg: Olfin Bedwere: justGreg: david_gaithersburg: According to Wiki the US has on of the lowest per capita homicide rates on the planet Link
.

LOL wut? Compared to some starving sub-Saharan African countries maybe. Not compared to the countries that we should be compared to:

Japan 0.3
Germany 0.8
Italy 0.9
UK 1.2
Canada 1.6
USA 4.2

There are 97 countries on that list with a lower homicide rate, including Iraq, Israel, and Afghanistan. We have a homicide problem, and your link verifies it.

/USA - We're number 98!

There are 106 on that list with a higher rate than the US. But they don't count much because they don't fit your criteria, right? It seems to me that the world has a homicide problem, not just the US.

Hey, if you draw great solace and internal peace from having a lower murder rate than El Salvador and Uganda then good on you. I would have thought most Americans aspired to a higher standing in the global community, but whatever.

I don't "draw great solace" from it at all. We can obviously do better as a nation. Still, cherry picking statistics by saying you can only compare the US rate to a handful of other countries doesn't seem to be very helpful to me, and that's what you're doing. Still, it's a free country, and if that's what you want to do, then good on you.


Are you just being intentionally obtuse? I stated that we are 98th on the list, so the full context is there. And comparing us directly to other G8 nations is not cherry-picking, it is entirely normal and useful.
 
2012-12-20 02:50:41 PM  

hasty ambush: Does the CDC tell us how many of those who will be shot had it coming?

For example:

A female hotel clerk confronted by a known criminal who put a knife to her throat found the courage and the ability to deny his attempted rape-she shot him


No, they don't:

5.1.1b Intent Categories
...
Homicide - injuries inflicted by another person with intent to injure or kill, by any means. Excludes injuries due to legal intervention and operations of war. Justifiable homicide is not identified in WISQARS.
 
2012-12-20 02:50:46 PM  

Cybernetic: DeathByGeekSquad: Charlie Chingas: We can prevent this by banning guns. There. Problem solved. You're welcome.

And fertilizer.
And accelerants.
And projectiles.
And blunt objects.
Any piercing objects.

There are always weapons.

At least with a gun you have a chance to stop/overwhelm the shooter, can't say the same for someone with a bomb.

The deadliest school massacre in US history occurred in 1927, killed 38 elementary-school students and six adults, and injured 58 others.

No guns were used.


What the media doesn't tell you: that was no school, and those were not kids. they were midgets and they were secretly making cocaine.
 
2012-12-20 02:50:59 PM  

neversubmit: begun car wars have


ADQ represent!
 
2012-12-20 02:51:02 PM  

factoryconnection: Snargi: Death by firearms isn't even in the top 15 causes of death in this country. The data that backs this up is in this document from the CDC.

Don't be fatuous. Everyone is supposed to die eventually. Most deaths occur to old people. We aren't talking about "death control," we're talking about "murder control." The gun is the #1-by-a-long-shot weapon of choice for murder and suicide in this country.

There are, it may surprise you to know, also people working quite diligently on dropping the rate of cancer, heart disease, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and other disease-related deaths as well.


Why are these still legal?
scm-l3.technorati.com
 
2012-12-20 02:52:55 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Ever consider what it would like to be in your line of work if schools no longer become the hot target? Cause an accident, wait for the emergency crews to swarm the site, detonate. The public horror of the individuals society pushes up on hero pedestals being picked off as they do their sworn duty.

You can almost hear the media salivating at the thought of the ratings bump, as they prepare news segments providing clear timelines on how to replicate the process for future homegrown bombers.


You're talking about something that we've known about, and trained people from the dispatch level to the individual provider level, for years to recognize, because those bad people in the Middle East do it all the time. It happened a few days ago in MO when someone sniped an MO State Trooper while he was helping EMS.
 
You act like because it doesn't make the news, it doesn't happen.
 
And it still doesn't make me any more likely to carry anything other than the F-S combat knife I carry already.
 
2012-12-20 02:53:49 PM  

gibbon1: Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: It's not the first time ever; I'm sure this was the case before cars were invented as well. But there is also more here than just "gun violence will destroy us all"... but I'm pretty sure we'll hear what they are.

I read an abstract by someone who looked at causes of death before the automobile. Which answered the question, why did society tolerate the carnage caused by automobiles? Turns out horses, trains, and trolleys are dangerous. Apparently significant numbers of people died in rail accidents up until the 1950's Fatalities that were mostly replaced by automobile accidents. Granted modern airplanes and passenger rail are very safe, much safer than cars.

One nice thing about guns, you can significantly reduce your risk by not owning one. And further by not associating with people that do.


Can you show statistics without suicide?
 
2012-12-20 02:55:21 PM  

Cybernetic: The deadliest school massacre in US history occurred in 1927, killed 38 elementary-school students and six adults, and injured 58 others.

No guns were used.


It's also the reason why you can't buy demolitions-grade explosives without a license. Oddly enough, very few elementary schools have been blown up since then. Plenty of abortion clinics using black powder pipe bombs, though.
 
2012-12-20 02:55:32 PM  

BronyMedic: DeathByGeekSquad: Ever consider what it would like to be in your line of work if schools no longer become the hot target? Cause an accident, wait for the emergency crews to swarm the site, detonate. The public horror of the individuals society pushes up on hero pedestals being picked off as they do their sworn duty.

You can almost hear the media salivating at the thought of the ratings bump, as they prepare news segments providing clear timelines on how to replicate the process for future homegrown bombers.

You're talking about something that we've known about, and trained people from the dispatch level to the individual provider level, for years to recognize, because those bad people in the Middle East do it all the time. It happened a few days ago in MO when someone sniped an MO State Trooper while he was helping EMS.

You act like because it doesn't make the news, it doesn't happen.

And it still doesn't make me any more likely to carry anything other than the F-S combat knife I carry already.


Do you even have a choice?
 
2012-12-20 02:58:38 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Do you even have a choice?

 

Yes and no. It depends on your service you work for. Many of the third services, like county based, will allow you to carry if you're a commissioned law enforcement officer unofficially, but you really keep it on the down-low if you do it. If you're Law Enforcement based, they will demand you are a reserve before you do so.
 
Private services generally will not only prohibit you from carrying even with a permit, but fire you if they find out you're packing a firearm because it's a massive legal liability for them.
 
To be honest, I wouldn't want to carry a pistol on me while on duty for the simple fact that there's a high chance a mental patient, or patient trying to flee from custody would take it away and use it against me and my partner while we were caring for them.
 
2012-12-20 02:59:03 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: factoryconnection: Snargi: Death by firearms isn't even in the top 15 causes of death in this country. The data that backs this up is in this document from the CDC.

 
Don't be fatuous. Everyone is supposed to die eventually. Most deaths occur to old people. We aren't talking about "death control," we're talking about "murder control." The gun is the #1-by-a-long-shot weapon of choice for murder and suicide in this country.
 
There are, it may surprise you to know, also people working quite diligently on dropping the rate of cancer, heart disease, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and other disease-related deaths as well.
 
Why are these still legal?
[scm-l3.technorati.com image 360x285]

 
Because these are not available year round.
 
i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-12-20 02:59:43 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Still waiting for those "super-predators" we were promised.


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-20 03:04:06 PM  

justGreg: Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.

Finland 0.45
Australia 0.14
England and Wales 0.07
Spain 0.2
Germany 0.19
Canada 0.51
USA 2.97

Does that help?


I'm not sure...are you saying 3% of the US population dies from a firearms related homicde each year?

That would be like 10 million people a year.......
 
2012-12-20 03:04:50 PM  

BronyMedic: StoPPeRmobile: Do you even have a choice?

Yes and no. It depends on your service you work for. Many of the third services, like county based, will allow you to carry if you're a commissioned law enforcement officer unofficially, but you really keep it on the down-low if you do it. If you're Law Enforcement based, they will demand you are a reserve before you do so.

Private services generally will not only prohibit you from carrying even with a permit, but fire you if they find out you're packing a firearm because it's a massive legal liability for them.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to carry a pistol on me while on duty for the simple fact that there's a high chance a mental patient, or patient trying to flee from custody would take it away and use it against me and my partner while we were caring for them.


Thanks.
 
2012-12-20 03:08:38 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: FTFA: "Every day, 85 Americans are shot dead, about 53 of them in suicides."

So are we to assume that of the 53 people that off themselves, some would not find another means if a gun was not available?


Nope...no way. If guns were unavailable people could not kill themselves. That's why in China and Japan, two large countries that strictly prohibit private gun ownership or possession, have suicide rates a fraction of that of the US.

Oh wait...they each off themselves at twice our rate even without access to guns? Unpossible!!!
 
2012-12-20 03:09:19 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Thanks.


It's not a problem. I can tell you right now of an on-duty firefighter in my hometown who keeps a full-frame 1911 strapped under his shirt when he's on duty (dude's massive in every meaning of the word).
 
They don't discourage it, but they don't encourage it either.
 
2012-12-20 03:10:10 PM  
So? Then jump in yer car and go out and kill some people, it's better than sitting home griping about it.

Jeez, you people; always expect the other guy to do the dirty work.

What a bunch of wussies.
 
2012-12-20 03:12:18 PM  

Giltric: justGreg: Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.

Finland 0.45
Australia 0.14
England and Wales 0.07
Spain 0.2
Germany 0.19
Canada 0.51
USA 2.97

Does that help?

I'm not sure...are you saying 3% of the US population dies from a firearms related homicde each year?

That would be like 10 million people a year.......


I believe that's out fault.
US Virgin Islands here. Between Us (60 per 100k) and Puerto Rico (50 per 100k) we're probably hammering that statistic.

/Yes, both areas have strict gun bans.
/Unless we're not counted as US citizens... which would make me feel rather insulted, you fascist statistic analyzing bastards.
 
2012-12-20 03:12:42 PM  
we should ban firearms
we should ban automobiles
we should ban chairs
we should ban food
 
2012-12-20 03:15:16 PM  

Giltric: justGreg: Snargi: homarjr: ]

/Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but I think you get the point....

[bradycenter.org image 740x343]

Those numbers are misleading. Give me the percentage of gun murders BY population of each of those countries.

Finland 0.45
Australia 0.14
England and Wales 0.07
Spain 0.2
Germany 0.19
Canada 0.51
USA 2.97

Does that help?

I'm not sure...are you saying 3% of the US population dies from a firearms related homicde each year?

That would be like 10 million people a year.......


Sorry, ambiguously presented. That is firearms related homicide per 100,000 people. So per capita, but not percentage (unless you move the decimal a couple of places).
 
2012-12-20 03:16:03 PM  

olddinosaur: So? Then jump in yer car and go out and kill some people, it's better than sitting home griping about it.

Jeez, you people; always expect the other guy to do the dirty work.

What a bunch of wussies.


lulz
 
2012-12-20 03:16:16 PM  

Giltric: I'm not sure...are you saying 3% of the US population dies from a firearms related homicde each year?

That would be like 10 million people a year.......



I think those are firearms deaths per 100K people. The ratios are about right. Generally the US has about 8 - 10 times the rate of firearms deaths per capita of Japan, who is usually dead last.
 
2012-12-20 03:21:29 PM  

RembrandtQEinstein: Show me the relevant stats.

 
Exclude the people who are involved in the drug trade.
Exclude suicides.
Exclude domestic violence incidents where one of the participants has either a violent criminal record or the police have been previously called to the residence more than once.

 
This statistic is as bullshiat as the "drunk" driving statistic where they count the incident as "alcohol related" if a sober driver hits a drunk pedestrian or if the diver is sober but the passenger is intoxicated.
 
So if we exclude the top three major categories of gun violence the statistic becomes bullshiat?  good to know.  Remove all the automobile fatalities where someone was speeding while you're at it
 
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