Incoming tipping thread. Head for the bunkers.

BarkingUnicorn: Wish every place would do this.

I agree. Pay your workers what they'd make with an average tip and price accordingly while monitoring your employees to make sure they're doing their jobs. How do you tell the server or restaurant if the service was good or bad? The same way you do everywhere else: write a note, talk to the manager, come back next time or don't, in that order, based on the service.

i'm going to drive all the way to ohio just so i can eat there. i hate tipping, its arbitrary, its confusing, its unnecessary, and it creates friction between the server and the customer. how about restaurants just charge me what it costs to prepare the food and pay the employees a good wage? none of this "we'll pay our employees slave wages and let the customer make up the difference based on how good a job he thought the employee did."

Every so often we hire people to represent us and legislate and enforce laws and they punch in, disappear up their own asses for the balance of their tenure, and tell us to give them a lot of our money, then tell us what we're allowed to do with what's left. So far, this has gotten everybody who isn't pigf*cking rich into hock to their lower lip. For Freedom™. Next reel, please.

this is about taxes not about tipping .. a co-op restaurant is not operating like a typical restaurant. The government wants their cut of the revenue.

Looks like the co-op was taking the tip credit (lets them pay servers less than minimum wage) and then dividing their tips among all employees including non-tip credit jobs, which is illegal. I bet someone within the co-op decided that wasn't "fair" and ratted the company out to the Dept of Labor. Those bureaucratic folks don't find this on their own, Easy fix, pay you're servers at least minimum wage then you can do whatever you want with the tips and know one in the DoL will care.

Phew. I though this was going to be a "dismembered penis in the food" story.

cakeman: this is about taxes not about tipping .. a co-op restaurant is not operating like a typical restaurant. The government wants their cut of the revenue.

Not really the situation. It was actually about fairness to the employees. The wait staff were being paid subminimum wage, but were still being taxed based on the assumption that they were being tippped fully, when they were in fact sharing their tips with people who were not usually tip earning. The result is that the waitstaff carried the full tax liability but only received a portion of the income. The co-op is spinning it in their favor, but they were really screwing their wait staff.

Wyalt Derp: Welcome to 0bama's Amercia!

- 82345862856923789457826478568264895682746 / 10 Seriously, it's not eve ironic or cute anymore.

Wyalt Derp: "Since issuing the field bulletin, the Department of Labor has cracked down on restaurants [...] Even though Casa Nueva's tip-pooling scheme was the definition of fairness, it did not adhere to the letter of the law"

Welcome to 0bama's Amercia!

I got a parking ticket last week for breaking a law that had been in place for over a decade. Welcome to Obama's America.

enderthexenocide: i'm going to drive all the way to ohio just so i can eat there. i hate tipping, its arbitrary, its confusing, its unnecessary, and it creates friction between the server and the customer. how about restaurants just charge me what it costs to prepare the food and pay the employees a good wage? none of this "we'll pay our employees slave wages and let the customer make up the difference based on how good a job he thought the employee did."

Tipping is confusing only if you are a moran. It is the system that is currently in place, is pretty straightforward and is pretty simple. Are there benefits to the system? Yes. Are there disadvantages? yes. Continuing to whine about how awful tipping is when it is ultimately not that much better or worse than the system you describe just makes you sound like a cranky old man yelling at clouds.

bunner: Wyalt Derp: Welcome to 0bama's Amercia!
 
- 82345862856923789457826478568264895682746 / 10 Seriously, it's not eve ironic or cute anymore.
 
I wouldn't say that. Federal government overregulation that destroys a small business made up of progressives to serve a tax-and-spend agenda is pretty ironic.

Don't forget to tip your dishwashers!

MycroftHolmes:
Tipping is confusing only if you are a moran. It is the system that is currently in place, is pretty straightforward and is pretty simple. Are there benefits to the system? Yes. Are there disadvantages? yes. Continuing to whine about how awful tipping is when it is ultimately not that much better or worse than the system you describe just makes you sound like a cranky old man yelling at clouds.

Not being from the US, but finding it maximally annoying to feel pressure to tip everyone, constantly: what exactly are the benefits to the system? Because giving a dollar bill to the barman every time he takes the cap off of my beer just makes me want to buy a case of beer and stay at home. Unless the benefits to the system are higher rates of alcoholism.

"Even though Casa Nueva's tip-pooling scheme was the definition of fairness, it did not adhere to the letter of the law"

Fairness is a subjective attribute and cannot be defined.

/approves

curriemaster: MycroftHolmes:
Tipping is confusing only if you are a moran. It is the system that is currently in place, is pretty straightforward and is pretty simple. Are there benefits to the system? Yes. Are there disadvantages? yes. Continuing to whine about how awful tipping is when it is ultimately not that much better or worse than the system you describe just makes you sound like a cranky old man yelling at clouds.

Not being from the US, but finding it maximally annoying to feel pressure to tip everyone, constantly: what exactly are the benefits to the system? Because giving a dollar bill to the barman every time he takes the cap off of my beer just makes me want to buy a case of beer and stay at home. Unless the benefits to the system are higher rates of alcoholism.

The tipping system offers consumers a chance to directly impact a service providers income and therefore provide an immediate feedback system. You don't like a server's performance, don't tip him. If the majority of people feel as you do (if the person is a truly bad server), they will be unable to continue at that job without improving.

gerrymander: bunner: Wyalt Derp: Welcome to 0bama's Amercia!

- 82345862856923789457826478568264895682746 / 10 Seriously, it's not eve ironic or cute anymore.

I wouldn't say that. Federal government overregulation that destroys a small business made up of progressives to serve a tax-and-spend agenda is pretty ironic.

You mean like handing a bunch of free passes to pirates, thieves and bankers while running up an unserviceable debt that's backed by nothing but our great, great, great grand kid's sweat equity while pissing away enough money to make Croesus vomit on dime store "military actions" in countries we're not at war with? Like that? I got news. This wasn't just this administration's MO. But I think it's important that we keep shouting at each other and sewing patches on our coats, lest Those Who Matter™ get all twitchy and start rolling tanks in the streets. The economy has been a football / hostage for two factions of wankers for so long that we think that IS governance. Blaming it on Party A or Party B just means you're buying the con.

MycroftHolmes: The tipping system offers consumers a chance to directly impact a service providers income and therefore provide an immediate feedback system. You don't like a server's performance, don't tip him. If the majority of people feel as you do (if the person is a truly bad server), they will be unable to continue at that job without improving.

I guess my issue is that the default = tip rather than good service = tip.

For the barman example, he says "What will it be?" and I say "Beer of the day, barkeep!" whereupon he opens a beer and says "3 dollars please". This is about as neutral as service gets and yet I am obliged, nay expected, to throw a dollar in the tip jar; which represents a solid 33%. I use a bar as an example because there is often minimal interaction but multiple tipping opportunities, however restaurant service can often be similar.

Poor feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = +money
Negative = no money

Better feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = no money
Negative = -money?

Obviously Im not proposing that. But the onus of staff suitability for the job should not be placed upon the shoulders of the customer. In most industries the responsibility of evaluating a worker's effectiveness is their manager's...why should it be different for food industry service staff?

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Backlash against this custom will soon reach a tipping point. I'm not just making gratuitous puns.

curriemaster: MycroftHolmes: The tipping system offers consumers a chance to directly impact a service providers income and therefore provide an immediate feedback system. You don't like a server's performance, don't tip him. If the majority of people feel as you do (if the person is a truly bad server), they will be unable to continue at that job without improving.

I guess my issue is that the default = tip rather than good service = tip.

For the barman example, he says "What will it be?" and I say "Beer of the day, barkeep!" whereupon he opens a beer and says "3 dollars please". This is about as neutral as service gets and yet I am obliged, nay expected, to throw a dollar in the tip jar; which represents a solid 33%. I use a bar as an example because there is often minimal interaction but multiple tipping opportunities, however restaurant service can often be similar.

Poor feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = +money
Negative = no money

Better feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = no money
Negative = -money?

Obviously Im not proposing that. But the onus of staff suitability for the job should not be placed upon the shoulders of the customer. In most industries the responsibility of evaluating a worker's effectiveness is their manager's...why should it be different for food industry service staff?

It is pretty accepted that 10 to 15 percent is neutral, and that wait staff pay reflects that. In the barkeep example, it is perfectly fair to tip one dollar every couple of drinks. In that case, though, at a busy bar, the barkeep will be more apt to serve the heavier tippers.


I disagree wholeheartedly that the customer is the wrong person to evaluate performance. Most companies spend a LOT of money and effort (surveys, focus groups, loyalty card programs) trying to obtain and measure customer opinion. The tipping system boils it down to a direct and immediate interaction

xanadian
Why the hell should I bust my ass to have my larger--and well-deserved--tips given to the slacker that does tables 4-8?

That's some crazy bootstrappy talk there ^.

It's time for the hipster/server/bartender crowd to be reminded how unfair personal responsibility is.

MycroftHolmes:
It is pretty accepted that 10 to 15 percent is neutral, and that wait staff pay reflects that. In the barkeep example, it is perfectly fair to tip one dollar every couple of drinks. In that case, though, at a busy bar, the barkeep will be more apt to serve the heavier tippers.


I disagree wholeheartedly that the customer is the wrong person to evaluate performance. Most companies spend a LOT of money and effort (surveys, focus groups, loyalty card programs) trying to obtain and measure customer opinion. The tipping system boils it down to a direct and immediate interaction

Using customer feedback as a metric to evaluate performance is one thing, making the customer directly responsible for that evaluation is entirely different. I know that I dont feel entirely comfortable acting as such, so I tend to tip higher than those more adapted to the tipping environment; even in a scenario where I experience mediocre or poor performance. Does this mean I am doing a poor job of incentivising the barman? Will other folk receive the same service because I have tipped too much? Will I ever be able to go out and just enjoy a beer without having to think about the service?

The difference between performance evaluation coming from a single person (a manager) and a large group of people (some of whom you may only ever serve once) is consistency. Let's say you are attempting to give the best service you've been trained for. Serving Person A? Bad tip. Serving Person B? Great tip. How, as a server, are you supposed to know the cause of the difference between the two values? How can you learn from that? A manager could (and should) give meaningful feedback other than just a percent value.

I imagine these issues are second nature (or nonexistant) to Americans, and maybe I am reading too much in to it...but going on holiday in the US always has a tinge of stress because of the whole tipping situation.

Table and counter service at a restaurant is what makes it a restaurant. Otherwise you fill a cooler full of sandwiches is blister packs and cans of Coke. If that's not worth more than 2.10 an hour, then this whole "full service restaurant" business idea should be reviewed.

MycroftHolmes: Tipping is confusing only if you are a moran. It is the system that is currently in place, is pretty straightforward and is pretty simple. Are there benefits to the system? Yes. Are there disadvantages? yes. Continuing to whine about how awful tipping is when it is ultimately not that much better or worse than the system you describe just makes you sound like a cranky old man yelling at clouds.

i don't think it is either of those things. it's hardly straightforward, since everyone has different opinions about how much to tip and what constitutes good or bad service. i'm sure we've all gone out to dinner with someone who feels that if the waiter doesn't kiss their ass the entire meal, then they don't deserve a tip. and some people will leave a tip no matter how bad the service is, because they don't want people to think they're cheap or mean. there really is no standard procedure for tipping, everyone does it differently. and another thing that bothers me is that the "acceptable" amount for tipping keeps changing, once upon a time it was 10% and then 13% and now it's 17% or something. is there some sort of newsletter i should get to inform me when they increase the arbitrary amount for "acceptable" tipping? is the waiter supposed to tell me what the going rate is? how else am i supposed to know?

i just want to pay for my food. i don't want to have to read someone's mind to guess what i should pay. because no matter what i do, some people call me a cheapskate and other people think i'm being way too generous.

enderthexenocide: i don't think it is either of those things. it's hardly straightforward, since everyone has different opinions about how much to tip and what constitutes good or bad service. i'm sure we've all gone out to dinner with someone who feels that if the waiter doesn't kiss their ass the entire meal, then they don't deserve a tip. and some people will leave a tip no matter how bad the service is, because they don't want people to think they're cheap or mean. there really is no standard procedure for tipping, everyone does it differently. and another thing that bothers me is that the "acceptable" amount for tipping keeps changing, once upon a time it was 10% and then 13% and now it's 17% or something. is there some sort of newsletter i should get to inform me when they increase the arbitrary amount for "acceptable" tipping? is the waiter supposed to tell me what the going rate is? how else am i supposed to know?

i just want to pay for my food. i don't want to have to read someone's mind to guess what i should pay. because no matter what i do, some people call me a cheapskate and other people think i'm being way too generous.

20% is customary. It hasn't been 10% in my lifetime. Its easy to remember and the difference between 13-15-17-20 is negligible but there is less math involved.

You should care if people think you're a cheapskate. You should not care if people think you're too generous (as if there is such a thing)

So instead of the whole tipping fiasco, they're just going to pay their employees a fair wage?

And people have a problem with this?

/needs a FINALLY tag
//your reward for good service is keeping your job

curriemaster: MycroftHolmes: The tipping system offers consumers a chance to directly impact a service providers income and therefore provide an immediate feedback system. You don't like a server's performance, don't tip him. If the majority of people feel as you do (if the person is a truly bad server), they will be unable to continue at that job without improving.

I guess my issue is that the default = tip rather than good service = tip.

For the barman example, he says "What will it be?" and I say "Beer of the day, barkeep!" whereupon he opens a beer and says "3 dollars please". This is about as neutral as service gets and yet I am obliged, nay expected, to throw a dollar in the tip jar; which represents a solid 33%. I use a bar as an example because there is often minimal interaction but multiple tipping opportunities, however restaurant service can often be similar.

Poor feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = +money
Negative = no money

Better feedback system:
Positive = +money
Neutral = no money
Negative = -money?

Obviously Im not proposing that. But the onus of staff suitability for the job should not be placed upon the shoulders of the customer. In most industries the responsibility of evaluating a worker's effectiveness is their manager's...why should it be different for food industry service staff?

Absolutely agree. I've never liked the idea of tipping someone for just doing their job competently. I do it because I know how little they get paid in wages, but I think it sucks.

There is nothing wrong with the act of tipping. If you believe good service should be rewarded, you should feel free to give someone some extra cash. People respond to incentives. Having said that, tips should be a supplement to income, rather than a component of income. In our current system, tips aren't so much a gratuity to the server as they are a wage subsidy to the employer. I find myself compelled to tip more so by the knowledge of subsistence wages than by merit. It's a good concept that has become perverse in the US.

Had the restraunt simply paid all it's workers at least minimum wage (before tips), this wouldn't be an issue.

If you read TFA, you'll see that the restaurant now simply adds a 20% "service charge".

If that's what you anti-tipper people want, zero choice, well... whatever.

SoxSweepAgain: If you read TFA, you'll see that the restaurant now simply adds a 20% "service charge".

If that's what you anti-tipper people want, zero choice, well... whatever.

I am not sure what the anti-tippers want. Near as I can figure, they break down into a few camps

1. Tipping is too hard to figure out and makes me uncomfortable because I have to use judgement, please take that responsibility away from me
2. I don't think we should have to pay for service on top of the food, let the owners just pay a decent wage (but don't raise the cost)
3. Let the owners pay a decent wage, lets add extra barriers to prevent me from giving feedback to the service staff, let me pay more (with less transparency to how that money is allocated). In short, make me pay more, reduce my control, make my experience worse, and likely let the server get paid less (this makes sense to some people???)