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(Yahoo)   Why Tim Tebow will also suck in the CFL   (ca.sports.yahoo.com) divider line 78
    More: Obvious, Tim Tebow, CFL, Rich Gannon, Montreal Alouettes, Stephen Garcia, Colin Kaepernick, Bernie Kosar, Greg McElroy  
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2405 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Dec 2012 at 9:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-20 12:33:01 AM  
Because he sucks?
 
2012-12-20 12:53:45 AM  
Every NFL player is on a CFL neg list.  99.999% of whom they expect never to have a conversation with, but its in one of those 'you never know' categories.  There's no price to be paid for neg list rights, although they are traded around sometimes when an unusual opportunity like Ricky Williams comes up.
 
2012-12-20 02:20:41 AM  
Tim Tebow will be playing in the NFL next year, and likely as a starter. It just won't be at quarterback.
 
Tebow has been very clear on this: He wants to help a team succeed. While he would like a shot at being a QB, I am certain he would be happy playing Running Back, especially if the team he is on (it won't be the Jets) is willing to make use of his full talents and toss in the occasional trick passing play for him.
 
In short, Tim Tebow is and always has been a Running Back that can throw a pass here or there to keep defenses honest. He isn't the fastest guy out there, but you will not find a player that will do more to help his team win. Hell, Steven Jackson is likely leaving my favorite team, the St. Louis Rams, after this season. I'd be happy to see Sam Bradford handing the ball off to Tim Tebow as a Running Back, or having Tebow block for him on passing plays.
 
Tebow has the spirit of a champion in him. He's a guy you want playing on your team, just as long as it isn't as your starting QB.
 
2012-12-20 06:32:49 AM  

MmmmBacon: Tim Tebow will be playing in the NFL next year, and likely as a starter. It just won't be at quarterback.
 
Tebow has been very clear on this: He wants to help a team succeed. While he would like a shot at being a QB, I am certain he would be happy playing Running Back, especially if the team he is on (it won't be the Jets) is willing to make use of his full talents and toss in the occasional trick passing play for him.
 
In short, Tim Tebow is and always has been a Running Back that can throw a pass here or there to keep defenses honest. He isn't the fastest guy out there, but you will not find a player that will do more to help his team win. Hell, Steven Jackson is likely leaving my favorite team, the St. Louis Rams, after this season. I'd be happy to see Sam Bradford handing the ball off to Tim Tebow as a Running Back, or having Tebow block for him on passing plays.
 
Tebow has the spirit of a champion in him. He's a guy you want playing on your team, just as long as it isn't as your starting QB.


Sounds like grasping at straws.  Ok, he's a lousy quarterback, but there must be SOMETHING  that an NFL team could use him for.  You make it sound like he's that one guy at work that is really lousy at his job, but he's got a family and we'd hate to see him out of work, so maybe he can sweep the floor or something.
 
2012-12-20 09:28:56 AM  
I don't think he is lousy professionally: I just think he hasn't had a team invest in him.

I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now
 
2012-12-20 09:31:58 AM  
tebow > sanchez
 
2012-12-20 09:37:43 AM  

karasoth: I don't think he is lousy professionally: I just think he hasn't had a team invest in him.

I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now


On the bench?
 
2012-12-20 09:40:35 AM  

MrVeach: karasoth: I don't think he is lousy professionally: I just think he hasn't had a team invest in him.

I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now

On the bench?


Yes thats recent though: prior to his injury and last season Alex Smith was so amazingly better then he was at a similar point in his career to Tebow. Because he finally had #1) a Good Coach and #2) a good team
 
2012-12-20 09:42:32 AM  
Another Tebow thread? When did Drew sell to espn?
 
2012-12-20 09:43:21 AM  
i47.tinypic.com
 
2012-12-20 09:44:36 AM  

karasoth: I don't think he is lousy professionally: I just think he hasn't had a team invest in him.

I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now


The 49ers were essentially saddled with the guy for a number of years given his contract as the #1 player picked in that draft; after he suffered an injury in his one Tebow-esque season (2007- 7 GP, 48.7 comp. %, 4.7 YPA), he was benched and had to massively restructure said contract just to stay on the team. Since then, he's been at around 60 % completion and 6.5 YPA.
 
2012-12-20 09:46:46 AM  
Is this the thread where we get to watch Jim from St. Paul suck on Tebow's dick and tell us how awesome he is?

If so, count me out.

Thanks.
 
2012-12-20 09:50:01 AM  

Incorrigible Astronaut: karasoth: I don't think he is lousy professionally: I just think he hasn't had a team invest in him.

I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now

The 49ers were essentially saddled with the guy for a number of years given his contract as the #1 player picked in that draft; after he suffered an injury in his one Tebow-esque season (2007- 7 GP, 48.7 comp. %, 4.7 YPA), he was benched and had to massively restructure said contract just to stay on the team. Since then, he's been at around 60 % completion and 6.5 YPA.


And I don't disagree with any of that.

But I want to put Tim's career in the NFL to date in context

He's had less then a full season starting
He was drafted by a Head Coach who had no intention of starting him or investing in him.
When he was the starter for most of a Season it was by a head coach who had *no* other option.

So Pey Pey was coming to denver and denver was trying to trade him
Jax wanted him but had no intention to use him or develop him they just wanted him to put asses in seats
The Jests told him they wanted to utilize him and develop him. So Tebus signed with the Jests.... turned out they picked up Tebow as a stunt as well.

So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor?
He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

I think Teebus can sit third string somewhere and be developed into a solid quarterback. But some one needs to be willing to do it.
I think a team with the right weapons (Not Denver, nor the Jests ATM) could make due with Tebow as an adequate second stringer.

I can point to a lot of guys who came out of college and never really were given an honest chance when they started but later were given a shot by teams and did ok.

Will Timmy ever be a Peyton or a Brady? No he won't. He might be a Orton or a Brad Johnson or a Jeff garcia or maybe an Alex Smith.....and really thats not a bad place to be if you a professional QB

Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB
 
2012-12-20 09:53:14 AM  

karasoth: Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB


Isn't this his 3rd/4th year now? Which time has the time/money to burn to take Timmay to throwing school? It's time to admit he's a bust. Last I checked, lies put tears in the baby Jesus's eyes.
 
2012-12-20 09:53:22 AM  

Amurica...Fark Ya!: Is this the thread where we get to watch Jim from St. Paul suck on Tebow's dick and tell us how awesome he is?

If so, count me out.

Thanks.


Never counted you in... GTFO
 
2012-12-20 09:53:27 AM  
PowerSlacker: tebow > sanchez

You have to use the LHC to see things that small.
 
2012-12-20 09:54:10 AM  

EyeballKid: Which time team has the time/money to burn to take Timmay to throwing school?


/farked that up, my bad
/but if I just had better people around me, and a year or two, I could nail that sentence.
 
2012-12-20 09:56:07 AM  

EyeballKid: karasoth: Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB

Isn't this his 3rd/4th year now? Which time has the time/money to burn to take Timmay to throwing school? It's time to admit he's a bust. Last I checked, lies put tears in the baby Jesus's eyes.


The Bronc's didn't put anything into him and had no intention of using him
The Jest's had no intention of ever using him

He basically has wasted 4 years in those two teams
 
2012-12-20 10:00:43 AM  
I don't think his accountant would agree with that statement.
 
2012-12-20 10:01:31 AM  

Pockafrusta: Amurica...Fark Ya!: Is this the thread where we get to watch Jim from St. Paul suck on Tebow's dick and tell us how awesome he is?

If so, count me out.

Thanks.

Never counted you in... GTFO


Awww...poor thing...you actually think you are important. Carry on.
 
2012-12-20 10:03:02 AM  

PowerSlacker: tebow > sanchez


In the Jet's system, yes.
 
2012-12-20 10:06:21 AM  
I think it's hard to gauge how Tebow will turn out when you bench him for a year and then let him run 5 plays before pulling him. You have to let him play and become a member of the team and let them start to gel. After seeing Sanchez throw 4 interceptions in that game, you really think Tebow couldn't do better? Maybe if they let him play more than 4 downs, he may start to show some promise. Yes, they can play in practice, but it's different than being in an actual game.
 
2012-12-20 10:07:35 AM  
I just cracked up picturing Tebow in the CFL complaining about his receivers going into motion before the snap or insisting the other team get penalized for too many men on the field.
 
2012-12-20 10:07:53 AM  

FunkyBlue: I think it's hard to gauge how Tebow will turn out when you bench him for a year and then let him run 5 plays before pulling him. You have to let him play and become a member of the team and let them start to gel. After seeing Sanchez throw 4 interceptions in that game, you really think Tebow couldn't do better? Maybe if they let him play more than 4 downs, he may start to show some promise. Yes, they can play in practice, but it's different than being in an actual game.


Allan Iverson agrees
 
2012-12-20 10:11:00 AM  

EyeballKid: karasoth: Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB

Isn't this his 3rd/4th year now? Which time has the time/money to burn to take Timmay to throwing school? It's time to admit he's a bust.


Last team he was with started 1-4. Tebow then made starting QB and Denver made the playoffs. Regardless of what happened after that,(playoff win) he carried the Broncos to the playoffs not being able to throw a pass. He has significant value as a player.
 
2012-12-20 10:12:38 AM  
CFL rules make the things that Tebow is bad at more important. The headline should read, "Why Tim Tebow will suck more in the CFL."
 
2012-12-20 10:17:14 AM  
I made the Marc Trestman case in the thread yesterday. My main point was that it'd be a good way for him to get away from any sort of expectations and try to rebuild himself if he wants to play QB. Whether he would actually be successful at it is a different story.

The UFL is a very intriguing option from a financial perspective. TV networks would jump at the chance to televise those games which would be huge financially for that league. Tebow would have the football stage to himself in the spring and could probably work some sort of revenue sharing deal. Then again, he'd have to worry about some no name guy trying to make a name for himself against him and I doubt he'd get any better.
 
2012-12-20 10:18:09 AM  
Tebow --- According to ESPN the greatest player that never was.
 
2012-12-20 10:19:45 AM  

karasoth: So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor? He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

 
FUNDAMENTALS??  In the N F L??  You think every NFL QB gets this luxury?  Oh, right, HoF QBs like Tom Brady not only are supremely talented, they're also led by the hand.  Um, NO.  Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.  The coach basically said ONE thing to him, and forgot about him at the bottom of the QB depth chart -- "If you want to make it in the NFL, you're going to have to build up your speed."  He was drafted as an afterthought, given one piece of advice, and that was it.  The next preseason Tom Brady was promoted to backup because he worked his tail off, to the point that he was faster than some of guys guaranteed to make the roster and outperforming the incumbent.  He became the permanent starter in his second season.  Since then he has been relentless in eliminating his weaknesses with minimal, if any, direction from coaches, not because Tom Brady is special, but because he's a grown-up professional.
 
Honestly, you're defending Tebow by saying he's not succeeding because he's not being tutored like some sixth-grader getting trumpet lessons in a professional league?  The shiat Tebow needs to learn can be picked up in YouTube tutorials FFS.  What's Tebow's excuse?  Tebow's had longer than Brady to mature, and he's still waiting for a coach to tell him what to do?  This is the problem with Tebow -- he's an idiot.  A boy, in every meaningful sense.  He "wants to help the team", and I do believe that -- I really do -- but he has no farking clue how to think on his own.  He's a brainwashed fundie mamma's boy who, by himself, has no internal filter, no capability for self-assessment, no critical thinking skills, and no idea how to improve.  Which is a disaster for a position that requires intensive preparation and analysis.  He's so stupid he can't even watch his own damn film and realize he'd be better off as a RB or TE.
 
You have it exactly backwards.  Tebow is not waiting for a coach to mold him into the player he should be.  The coaches are waiting for Tebow to grow the fark up and figure out his problems on his own.  They're not gonna go, "Oh, you poor neglected boy, let me teach you the basic fundamentals of football."  Oh, lordy, the audacity of Tebow fans how think he should be taught fundamentals when the coaches are working 18-hour days breaking down film.  They ain't got time for precious snowflake shiat.  Players are expected to make decisions like grown men.  If he still needs to be led by the effin' hand while gunning for the most cerebral job in sports it's no farking wonder coaches aren't keen on sending him out there.
 
2012-12-20 10:25:26 AM  

dragonchild: karasoth: So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor? He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

FUNDAMENTALS??  In the N F L??  You think every NFL QB gets this luxury?  Oh, right, HoF QBs like Tom Brady not only are supremely talented, they're also led by the hand.  Um, NO.  Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.  The coach basically said ONE thing to him, and forgot about him at the bottom of the QB depth chart -- "If you want to make it in the NFL, you're going to have to build up your speed."  He was drafted as an afterthought, given one piece of advice, and that was it.  The next preseason Tom Brady was promoted to backup because he worked his tail off, to the point that he was faster than some of guys guaranteed to make the roster and outperforming the incumbent.  He became the permanent starter in his second season.  Since then he has been relentless in eliminating his weaknesses with minimal, if any, direction from coaches, not because Tom Brady is special, but because he's a grown-up professional.

Honestly, you're defending Tebow by saying he's not succeeding because he's not being tutored like some sixth-grader getting trumpet lessons in a professional league?  The shiat Tebow needs to learn can be picked up in YouTube tutorials FFS.  What's Tebow's excuse?  Tebow's had longer than Brady to mature, and he's still waiting for a coach to tell him what to do?  This is the problem with Tebow -- he's an idiot.  A boy, in every meaningful sense.  He "wants to help the team", and I do believe that -- I really do -- but he has no farking clue how to think on his own.  He's a brainwashed fundie mamma's boy who, by himself, has no internal filter, no capability for self-assessment, no critical thinking skills, and no idea how to improve.  Which is a disaster for a position that requires ...


I can point to plenty of guys who got developed into talents and learned by riding the wood. (Matt Hassleback and Aaron Rodgers stand out as two) and there are others. (some one by the name of BRETT FARVE you might have heard of)

SOME quarterbacks succeed in being in Tom Brady's situation. Some don't.

Not every Quarterback "Earns" his spot. Quite a few get their spot because of Head Coach infatuation with them (pretty much every Tampa QB Gruden drafted or traded for) so lets get real
 
2012-12-20 10:26:51 AM  

dragonchild: karasoth: So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor? He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

FUNDAMENTALS??  In the N F L??  You think every NFL QB gets this luxury?  Oh, right, HoF QBs like Tom Brady not only are supremely talented, they're also led by the hand.  Um, NO.  Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.  The coach basically said ONE thing to him, and forgot about him at the bottom of the QB depth chart -- "If you want to make it in the NFL, you're going to have to build up your speed."  He was drafted as an afterthought, given one piece of advice, and that was it.  The next preseason Tom Brady was promoted to backup because he worked his tail off, to the point that he was faster than some of guys guaranteed to make the roster and outperforming the incumbent.  He became the permanent starter in his second season.  Since then he has been relentless in eliminating his weaknesses with minimal, if any, direction from coaches, not because Tom Brady is special, but because he's a grown-up professional.

Honestly, you're defending Tebow by saying he's not succeeding because he's not being tutored like some sixth-grader getting trumpet lessons in a professional league?  The shiat Tebow needs to learn can be picked up in YouTube tutorials FFS.  What's Tebow's excuse?  Tebow's had longer than Brady to mature, and he's still waiting for a coach to tell him what to do?  This is the problem with Tebow -- he's an idiot.  A boy, in every meaningful sense.  He "wants to help the team", and I do believe that -- I really do -- but he has no farking clue how to think on his own.  He's a brainwashed fundie mamma's boy who, by himself, has no internal filter, no capability for self-assessment, no critical thinking skills, and no idea how to improve.  Which is a disaster for a position that requires ...


Bold words. Italics.

In all seriousness, this. This times a gajillion. Tebow reminds me of my wife's college students who have no critical thinking skills and expect to be walked through everything.
 
2012-12-20 10:32:45 AM  
Smith got Developed and has been an OK QB, Farve, Hassleback, and Rodgers have all been developmental projects (and those have all worked out well)
Gradkowski developed into an adequate backup and a medicore starter after he got cut from the Bucs
the McCowans have improved with some pine riding on other teams

Tebow on the bench with a team that is willing to invest in him can do well.

And Jax can afford to invest in Tebow (and Tebow will have a comfort zone there to improve)
 
2012-12-20 10:37:20 AM  

dragonchild: karasoth: So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor? He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?
 
FUNDAMENTALS??  In the N F L??  You think every NFL QB gets this luxury?  Oh, right, HoF QBs like Tom Brady not only are supremely talented, they're also led by the hand.  Um, NO.  Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.  The coach basically said ONE thing to him, and forgot about him at the bottom of the QB depth chart -- "If you want to make it in the NFL, you're going to have to build up your speed."  He was drafted as an afterthought, given one piece of advice, and that was it.  The next preseason Tom Brady was promoted to backup because he worked his tail off, to the point that he was faster than some of guys guaranteed to make the roster and outperforming the incumbent.  He became the permanent starter in his second season.  Since then he has been relentless in eliminating his weaknesses with minimal, if any, direction from coaches, not because Tom Brady is special, but because he's a grown-up professional.


Not only that but Brady took the position from a former #1 overall pick and 2x All-Pro. Tebow had to beat out Orton, who's a journeyman at best, and Sanchez, who's a bust of a first round pick. Unlike a few other people in this thread, I think Tebow probably *is* working hard to improve, he just won't.
 
2012-12-20 10:37:21 AM  

karasoth: I mean look at how god awful Alex Smith was at the start of his career: And look at where he is now. I think if Tebow had a organization invest in him (and its a GOOD organization) he might end up as good a QB as Alex Smith is now


Benched for the hot new rookie? Yeah, I can see that in Tebow's future.
 
2012-12-20 10:39:25 AM  

karasoth: But I want to put Tim's career in the NFL to date in context

He's had less then a full season starting
He was drafted by a Head Coach who had no intention of starting him or investing in him.
When he was the starter for most of a Season it was by a head coach who had *no* other option.

So Pey Pey was coming to denver and denver was trying to trade him
Jax wanted him but had no intention to use him or develop him they just wanted him to put asses in seats
The Jests told him they wanted to utilize him and develop him. So Tebus signed with the Jests.... turned out they picked up Tebow as a stunt as well.

So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor?
He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

I think Teebus can sit third string somewhere and be developed into a solid quarterback. But some one needs to be willing to do it.
I think a team with the right weapons (Not Denver, nor the Jests ATM) could make due with Tebow as an adequate second stringer.

I can point to a lot of guys who came out of college and never really were given an honest chance when they started but later were given a shot by teams and did ok.

Will Timmy ever be a Peyton or a Brady? No he won't. He might be a Orton or a Brad Johnson or a Jeff garcia or maybe an Alex Smith.....and really thats not a bad place to be if you a professional QB

Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB


He's only started 6 games and 2 playoff games in his career.
During the off season between his draft and sophomore year, he worked with a QB coach the ENTIRE off season to help him get a quicker release and to help him learn to read defenses. The end result? He still has the same long, drawn out, side arm, then up over the top of his shoulder release. In fact, if he were to start to throw the ball when you started reading this, his release would be about right.... NOW!

The point is: He's had just as much training and face time with the QB coach as anyone else. He's been in the number 2 position, talked with multiple starters about how to react to defenses and defensive looks, and he still can't hit a target. Trust me, I live outside of Denver, and when he was drafted it was right then and there: All Tebow All The Time. Every sports broadcast on local and national news had to bring him up every episode. He's been given every chance to succeed in the NFL, and some could even say he's been given more chances because he is such a dynamic player that the fans love. His fans are rabid and can dictate NFL owners and head coaches decisions.

So, don't tell me he hasn't had the opportunity, he has. Many love to say he has a winning spirit, the heart of a champion and all that, I can kind of agree with that. Look at Doug Flutie. 5'9" QB, never given an honest chance in the NFL, but he went to the USFL then the CFL. In the CFL he went on to win 3 Grey Cups, break tons of records and was voted as the Greatest CFL Player in the history of the sport before being inducted into it's Hall Of Fame. Then came his return to the NFL.

Once again, he had trouble securing starting jobs because the coaches wanted prototypical 6'5" QB's, regardless of the fact Flutie just kept winning them games. He was benched for the likes of Rob Johnson and the rookie Drew Brees, before landing in New England where he rode the pine while Tom Brady scored them a Super Bowl win. As a starter, Fltuie won tons of games in every league he played in.

The difference between Tebow and Flutie? Flutie can throw the ball. Tebow is slow on his wind up and inaccurate at best (47.9% lifetime completion rate). Tebow has been working with QB coaches since he was a teenager, and he still hasn't improved. The year he spent the offseason to improve his throw? It changed nothing in his stance, windup or release, because that's the way he throws. You'd have just as much luck attempting to make him learn to throw right handed.

In college, Tebow earned himself a Heisman with his legs, not throwing. Hell, he won a national championship with his legs, leading the team in rushing yards many games that season. Again, not throwing the ball, but running it. He. Cannot. Throw.

But, let's step back for a moment. He did have some success throwing TD's in College. Do you suppose there's a difference between college level secondary's and pro level? I'm gonna say yes. Not just in talent level, but in schemes, looks and execution. Instead of being on the top team that steamrolls everyone they meet (it's always much more fun to play the game when the defense has literally been knocked on it's ass), he's now playing with teams that are more evenly matched with the best of the best playing in each position. Even the worst NFL players are worth their weight in Gold compared to average and good College players.

Tebow is not RGIII, unfortunately, and I know he really, really wants the chance to prove he is. I've said as much: Jacksonville wants him, so send him there, and let them develop him all they want. In 2 years when he's cut from the team to 'go in other direction', he can retire comfortably and do all the missionary work he wants to, and be happy knowing he's making a difference in the world off the football field, instead of on it. It's getting to the point where he's starting to ruin his humble ambiance and 'aw shucks' attitude. He's starting to look like a spoiled brat.
 
2012-12-20 10:40:11 AM  

karasoth: Smith got Developed and has been an OK QB, Farve, Hassleback, and Rodgers have all been developmental projects (and those have all worked out well)
Gradkowski developed into an adequate backup and a medicore starter after he got cut from the Bucs
the McCowans have improved with some pine riding on other teams

Tebow on the bench with a team that is willing to invest in him can do well.

And Jax can afford to invest in Tebow (and Tebow will have a comfort zone there to improve)


Every QB you named who became a legitimate starter didn't have all the weaknesses that Tebow does, neither did the backups you're trotting out. They could either make reads and check progressions or throw the ball well. Tebow does neither.
 
2012-12-20 10:40:47 AM  

redmid17: dragonchild: karasoth: So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor? He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

FUNDAMENTALS??  In the N F L??  You think every NFL QB gets this luxury?  Oh, right, HoF QBs like Tom Brady not only are supremely talented, they're also led by the hand.  Um, NO.  Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth round.  The coach basically said ONE thing to him, and forgot about him at the bottom of the QB depth chart -- "If you want to make it in the NFL, you're going to have to build up your speed."  He was drafted as an afterthought, given one piece of advice, and that was it.  The next preseason Tom Brady was promoted to backup because he worked his tail off, to the point that he was faster than some of guys guaranteed to make the roster and outperforming the incumbent.  He became the permanent starter in his second season.  Since then he has been relentless in eliminating his weaknesses with minimal, if any, direction from coaches, not because Tom Brady is special, but because he's a grown-up professional.

Not only that but Brady took the position from a former #1 overall pick and 2x All-Pro. Tebow had to beat out Orton, who's a journeyman at best, and Sanchez, who's a bust of a first round pick. Unlike a few other people in this thread, I think Tebow probably *is* working hard to improve, he just won't.


Denver had no intention of starting Tebow: Performance or not in camp. They were using him as a PR stunt
Jets had no intention of starting Tebow: He was a stunt for them to

Tebow needs an organization that actually has an intent to use him if he earns it
 
2012-12-20 10:43:07 AM  

redmid17: karasoth: Smith got Developed and has been an OK QB, Farve, Hassleback, and Rodgers have all been developmental projects (and those have all worked out well)
Gradkowski developed into an adequate backup and a medicore starter after he got cut from the Bucs
the McCowans have improved with some pine riding on other teams

Tebow on the bench with a team that is willing to invest in him can do well.

And Jax can afford to invest in Tebow (and Tebow will have a comfort zone there to improve)

Every QB you named who became a legitimate starter didn't have all the weaknesses that Tebow does, neither did the backups you're trotting out. They could either make reads and check progressions or throw the ball well. Tebow does neither.


Brett Farve was not good in Atlanta
The McCowans were pretty awful their first few seasons

I will give you Hassleback and Rodgers as having less developmental problems then Tebow but there are plenty of guys who started after developing on a team who were problematic
 
2012-12-20 10:43:46 AM  

karasoth: Not every Quarterback "Earns" his spot. Quite a few get their spot because of Head Coach infatuation with them (pretty much every Tampa QB Gruden drafted or traded for) so lets get real


OK, let's get real then.  It's apparent that Tebow doesn't get that Head Coach Infatuation. . . which means he's going to have to earn the QB spot (or whatever spot) the hard way.  Like, oh, Tom Brady.
 

karasoth: SOME quarterbacks succeed in being in Tom Brady's situation. Some don't.


There's the rub.  That particular "situation" was being written off by the ENTIRE league and then being forgotten at the bottom of a depth chart.  Which means the QBs who succeed in "Tom Brady's situation" are those who had the mettle to make it in the NFL.  He wasn't given any special treatment.  How was being a sixth-round afterthought in any way more advantageous than Tim Tebow's situation?
 
Welcome to the real world, Tebow, where you are no longer Special.  You are running out of time to join the world of grown-ups.
 
2012-12-20 10:45:09 AM  

karasoth: redmid17: karasoth: Smith got Developed and has been an OK QB, Farve, Hassleback, and Rodgers have all been developmental projects (and those have all worked out well)
Gradkowski developed into an adequate backup and a medicore starter after he got cut from the Bucs
the McCowans have improved with some pine riding on other teams

Tebow on the bench with a team that is willing to invest in him can do well.

And Jax can afford to invest in Tebow (and Tebow will have a comfort zone there to improve)

Every QB you named who became a legitimate starter didn't have all the weaknesses that Tebow does, neither did the backups you're trotting out. They could either make reads and check progressions or throw the ball well. Tebow does neither.

Brett Farve was not good in Atlanta
The McCowans were pretty awful their first few seasons

I will give you Hassleback and Rodgers as having less developmental problems then Tebow but there are plenty of guys who started after developing on a team who were problematic


I know they were awful. They still had a skillset coming into the league that Tebow couldn't and can't match.
 
2012-12-20 10:48:28 AM  

HST's Dead Carcass: karasoth: But I want to put Tim's career in the NFL to date in context

He's had less then a full season starting
He was drafted by a Head Coach who had no intention of starting him or investing in him.
When he was the starter for most of a Season it was by a head coach who had *no* other option.

So Pey Pey was coming to denver and denver was trying to trade him
Jax wanted him but had no intention to use him or develop him they just wanted him to put asses in seats
The Jests told him they wanted to utilize him and develop him. So Tebus signed with the Jests.... turned out they picked up Tebow as a stunt as well.

So he has been on two teams who never took him serious as a prospect for their team: is that PERHAPS a reason why his fundementals are poor?
He has had 3 coaches who didn't believe in him: Is this POSSIBLE why he is having trouble transitioning to the NFL game?

I think Teebus can sit third string somewhere and be developed into a solid quarterback. But some one needs to be willing to do it.
I think a team with the right weapons (Not Denver, nor the Jests ATM) could make due with Tebow as an adequate second stringer.

I can point to a lot of guys who came out of college and never really were given an honest chance when they started but later were given a shot by teams and did ok.

Will Timmy ever be a Peyton or a Brady? No he won't. He might be a Orton or a Brad Johnson or a Jeff garcia or maybe an Alex Smith.....and really thats not a bad place to be if you a professional QB

Not every team is going to have a Brady, Manning, Manning, or Rodgers. I think with 2 to 3 years of actual DEVELOPMENT Tim will be a fine NFL QB

He's only started 6 games and 2 playoff games in his career.
During the off season between his draft and sophomore year, he worked with a QB coach the ENTIRE off season to help him get a quicker release and to help him learn to read defenses. The end result? He still has the same long, drawn out, side arm, then up over the top of his should ...


I think the mechanics aren't that much of an issue (and Doug Flutie has said as much. And lets not forget Brett Farve had pretty clunky mechanics). He hasn't developed the ability to read pro schemes and make the right choices with Pro Schemes that he was capable of doing in college.

You can look at Sanchez and Freeman (both drafted in the same class iirc) and it took them a full season and a half of STARTING to get to that point.

And at the end of the Day the Denver Front office and none of the Denver head coaches he had EVER intended Tim to start a game in Denver EVER. He worked out with the QB coach sure....but if you work out with the QB coach and he knows your never getting the job he isn't going to work with you that hard and he isn't going to push you to be your best
 
2012-12-20 10:52:30 AM  

karasoth: You can look at Sanchez and Freeman (both drafted in the same class iirc) and it took them a full season and a half of STARTING to get to that point.


Erm I think the whole point of McElroy starting is that Sanchez *hasn't* gotten the point. Freeman also had a pretty good rookie season.
 
2012-12-20 10:54:11 AM  

redmid17: karasoth: You can look at Sanchez and Freeman (both drafted in the same class iirc) and it took them a full season and a half of STARTING to get to that point.

Erm I think the whole point of McElroy starting is that Sanchez *hasn't* gotten the point. Freeman also had a pretty good rookie season.


Whoops my bad. He had a great 2010. You were right on him. Thought he was drafted a year later.
 
2012-12-20 10:56:36 AM  
If Tebow is just so good and nobody gives him a chance and all he does is win - why can't he beat out other QB's in training camp?
 
2012-12-20 10:57:15 AM  

redmid17: karasoth: You can look at Sanchez and Freeman (both drafted in the same class iirc) and it took them a full season and a half of STARTING to get to that point.

Erm I think the whole point of McElroy starting is that Sanchez *hasn't* gotten the point. Freeman also had a pretty good rookie season.


Sanchez had a good first two seasons (when the Jets had better teams) as the Jets teams started circling the drain he had no ability to make better choices. Basically when Sanchez had GOOD choices to make he could make good choices. When he had good enough, ok, and least awful choices to make he started screwing up

and Josh freeman rode the bench for most of his first season before he was given the keys.

I think the mechanical issues of tebow are over stated.

The Denver team he was on was missing a lot of pieces to be a good team. They got better when he left on the receiving team and the rushing game improved. (That and Pey Pey elevates receivers).
 
2012-12-20 10:59:58 AM  

spanarkelspinner: If Tebow is just so good and nobody gives him a chance and all he does is win - why can't he beat out other QB's in training camp?


Because the Quarterback system is a form of ego for Head Coaches and General Managers

they have an idea of what they want for each position

If you don't fit the mold they largely ignore you. It doesn't matter if you "Just win." They would rather win the RIGHT way
 
2012-12-20 10:59:58 AM  

karasoth: Denver had no intention of starting Tebow: Performance or not in camp. They were using him as a PR stunt
Jets had no intention of starting Tebow: He was a stunt for them to

Tebow needs an organization that actually has an intent to use him if he earns it


McDaniels drafted him as the future of the organization. Once McDaniels was fired for cheating (Tebow sure would have been a lot better than he is if he knew the the defensive play calls) and Elway took over, Tebow's time was running out. The ONLY reason he got a start in Denver is because his rabid fans were screaming, and literally buying Billboards telling the organization to start him. Orton only broke Elways passing records the previous year, so, it's not like he was special or anything. Truth is Orton can win games as long as the game doesn't ride on his shoulders. He can execute accurately enough, and command the game just enough, to not fall behind, but he's not going to have 4th quarter heroics. Tebow ruined what could have been an average career for Orton.

I'd also like to point out that no one felt Orton would excel in Denver, but the coaches worked with him and in 1 year turned him into a QB that beat Saint John Elway's passing yards and TD's in a season. That's how well QB coaches do in this league, they made a 'mediocre' and average QB break a hall of famer's records. No small feat! But, why didn't that work for Tebow? He spent an entire year with a throwing coach. No change in his stance or throwing form or wind up or release...

Tebow was not a PR stunt for Denver, he was to be the heir apparent in Denver. McDaniels wanted him and was working with him during his rookie year before he got fired for being a terribad coach, which brings me to my final point: A Terrible Coach with no eye for talent drafts a terrible player with no talent, and the world is up in arms because of the type of guy he is OFF the field. Yes, he excelled at the college level. So did Rick Mirer, Ryan Leaf, Mark Sanchez, Matt Leinart, Carson Palmer, Rob Johnson, Patrick Ramsey, Brady Quinn, Richard Todd, Jeff George, Vince Young, Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, Cade McNown, David Klingler, Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Todd Marinovich, JeMarcus Russel just to name a few.

But, hey, wait, Tebow is different because ___________________ (fill in the blank).
 
2012-12-20 11:03:21 AM  

HST's Dead Carcass: karasoth: Denver had no intention of starting Tebow: Performance or not in camp. They were using him as a PR stunt
Jets had no intention of starting Tebow: He was a stunt for them to

Tebow needs an organization that actually has an intent to use him if he earns it

McDaniels drafted him as the future of the organization. Once McDaniels was fired for cheating (Tebow sure would have been a lot better than he is if he knew the the defensive play calls) and Elway took over, Tebow's time was running out. The ONLY reason he got a start in Denver is because his rabid fans were screaming, and literally buying Billboards telling the organization to start him. Orton only broke Elways passing records the previous year, so, it's not like he was special or anything. Truth is Orton can win games as long as the game doesn't ride on his shoulders. He can execute accurately enough, and command the game just enough, to not fall behind, but he's not going to have 4th quarter heroics. Tebow ruined what could have been an average career for Orton.

I'd also like to point out that no one felt Orton would excel in Denver, but the coaches worked with him and in 1 year turned him into a QB that beat Saint John Elway's passing yards and TD's in a season. That's how well QB coaches do in this league, they made a 'mediocre' and average QB break a hall of famer's records. No small feat! But, why didn't that work for Tebow? He spent an entire year with a throwing coach. No change in his stance or throwing form or wind up or release...

Tebow was not a PR stunt for Denver, he was to be the heir apparent in Denver. McDaniels wanted him and was working with him during his rookie year before he got fired for being a terribad coach, which brings me to my final point: A Terrible Coach with no eye for talent drafts a terrible player with no talent, and the world is up in arms because of the type of guy he is OFF the field. Yes, he excelled at the college level. So did Rick Mirer, Ryan Le ...


Look at McDaniel's shopping for Gady Quinn, whats his face who busted out in KC after he had that really good season in New England, getting Kyle Orton after he blew up the Quarterback Situation with Jay Cutler in Denver.

I think McDaniels picked up Tebow to try to sell himself as some sort of Little Hoodie evil genius stunt. And his original intent was to use Tebow for part of a modified Wildcat package (which is what McDaniels said at the time). If he lasted longer in Denver he would have found another quarterback to throw into the mix and string tebow along till he cut him
 
2012-12-20 11:07:54 AM  

karasoth: The Denver team he was on was missing a lot of pieces to be a good team. They got better when he left on the receiving team and the rushing game improved. (That and Pey Pey elevates receivers).


That same exact team is the one that Orton broke Elway's records with, and the same team that got to the playoffs with Tebow. Mind you, out of 16 games, Orton started 10 of them before the rabid fans all but forced the Broncos to start Tebow.

Otron and Sanchez have both flailed with their respective teams when Tebow joined because the fans want Tebow on the field. They amplify all the mistakes of the current starter, then conveniently forgive Tebow for worse performances. I know this because I live in Colorado, where the Professional Tebow hype started. I understand you're in Tampa, FL, which is where the whole Tebow-Mania started, and all I am saying is you can have the guy! In 3 years from now, if he's not out of the league, you can ceom around groin thrusting through threads that you were right.

But, I must say: You do not have a unique look into the psyche and advances of the NFL. We all get the same picture, and if even the professionals, who get paid to add merit to a players abilities are saying he's a bad player, then he's a bad player. Being a Tebow-Maniac is like being a Hulk-A-Maniac. Yes, we understand you're a fan, yes he is entertaining to watch, but in the end, you're being pretty annoying about the whole thing when we know it's all fake. But, we understand, it's still real to you.
 
2012-12-20 11:08:06 AM  

karasoth: redmid17: karasoth: You can look at Sanchez and Freeman (both drafted in the same class iirc) and it took them a full season and a half of STARTING to get to that point.

 
Erm I think the whole point of McElroy starting is that Sanchez *hasn't* gotten the point. Freeman also had a pretty good rookie season.
 
Sanchez had a good first two seasons (when the Jets had better teams) as the Jets teams started circling the drain he had no ability to make better choices. Basically when Sanchez had GOOD choices to make he could make good choices. When he had good enough, ok, and least awful choices to make he started screwing up
 
As far as rookie years go, Sanchez was below average. The problem is he barely improved as his rookie year wasn't that good in the first place. He's only regressed since his 2nd year.
 
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