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(SFGate)   Live in California and don't have solar panels? That'll be 4% more on your electric bill, dirty energy consumer   (sfgate.com) divider line 171
    More: Asinine, solar panels, fixed costs, solar energy  
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7594 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2012 at 10:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-18 11:30:20 PM

TheJoe03: Serious question because I don't know much about the specifics of solar power, would your power supply be diminished in the winter (rainy/cloudy season in California)?


Yes. That said, people tend to use more power in the summer to run air conditioning.
 
2012-12-18 11:31:32 PM

super_grass: So is this a genuine step towards reducing fossil fuel consumption or did some solar panel seller grease certain palms in Sacramento?


This. I'd love to hear who got what from whom.

Corruption, thy name is Sacramento.
 
2012-12-18 11:34:38 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We could nationalize the wires and treat it like a public good, similar to the highways or (hopefully) the internet. Then use public money to upgrade and maintain it - similar to the Department of Transportation on the state level.
 
But I'm just a crazy liberal.


No, you are a crazy socialist.

A government takeover is not a solution. We need to encourage competition. Why do I have only one option for electricity? Why only one option for water? What is this communist Russia? Where are the goddamn competitors? That is the only way to bring prices down to a reasonable level. As long as government selected monopolies control these things we will pay through the nose.
 
2012-12-18 11:37:33 PM
www.aerojockey.com

I'm a California homeowner with no solar panels and I'm ok with this.
 
2012-12-18 11:38:14 PM
I just get all my electricity from my neighbor's outside outlet. That counts as an alternative power source, right?
www.jfiveelectric.com
 
2012-12-18 11:42:15 PM
That whole article read like an industry spokesman op-ed.
 
2012-12-18 11:44:08 PM

MrEricSir: I'd also point out that if you're a homeowner with decent credit, you might be able to get a loan to install solar panels. Solar loans are usually set up so that your monthly loan payment and power bill added together are no more than your average electric rate before the panels were added.


I am dubious. It would take 100+ years to pay off the panels if paying at a rate that kept my payment below what I currently pay. Ok, I exagerate, but it would certainly be far more years than I want to owe someone money for. Say my power bill is $150/month and after I install the solar panels it is zero. I am guessing here but lets say the solar panels cost $20k between parts and labor. With no interest I would be looking at 11 freaking years of payments if they were to remain at $150 a month. With interest it would be more like 25 years.

All of which horribly conflicts with my goal to never be in debt to anyone again. Ok, I owe on my house for now and wont be able to pay that off for 10 years or so but no way in hell am I going to add anything else that I cant pay for in cash.
 
2012-12-18 11:45:23 PM
Go California! This'll drive the cost of solar panels and reverse power equipment down to livable levels, Now, they just need to incorporate the panels into roofing, so we can kill stones with one bird. How long does a solar panel last out in the weather, anyways?
 
2012-12-18 11:46:19 PM

vudukungfu: But you build one little tiny reactor in your garden shed, and they swoop in on you like you're some kind of a freak.

 
Yea nothing at al freakish about the dude....
 
 
i135.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-18 11:47:50 PM

Billybobgeorgebob: That whole article read like an industry spokesman op-ed.


Welcome to journalism 101: Why write something about a topic you don't care about when there are 50 other guys who really, really care about the topic and are just desperate to get their drafts into your hands?
 
2012-12-18 11:47:55 PM

TheJoe03: tortilla burger: California is really good at spearheading changes that need to be made; unfortunately, California is also really bad at implementing them correctly on the first go-around

Very true, but you always need someone to try and fark up so others can make a better law afterwards. It would be cool if CA took the extra charge and gave it back to the public so we can get solar power for an affordable price.


As I Californian I am much more skeptical. Not only is the state bad at implementing changes on the first go-around, they are bad at implementing them on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, nth go around. The best thing the CA government could do is disolve itself.
 
2012-12-18 11:48:22 PM
They don't care. They think they are saving the planet.
 
2012-12-18 11:51:03 PM
More well-intentioned laws that are having unintended consequences. I don't fault people for wanting to encourage society to use renewable sources, I fault them for failing to consider what laws on the books will force people to do.
 
2012-12-18 11:51:21 PM
Hasn't California been plagued with brownouts? Isn't that extra capacity simply providing electricity that they were previously unwilling, or unable to provide? This smells like bullshiat.
 
2012-12-18 11:52:01 PM

tortilla burger: California is really good at spearheading changes that need to be made; unfortunately, California is also really bad at implementing them correctly on the first go-around



Pretty much.
 
/new to California
//needs its own tag
 
2012-12-18 11:52:48 PM
Looking at my electric bill, I'm seeing at least ten dollars worth of fixed charges... so if I had solar panels (and didn't live in Utah) and I broke dead even kilowatt-wise with Rocky Mountain Power, I'd still end up paying them ten dollars. So they've already got their mark-up, maintenance cost, whatever-the-heck-you-want-to-call-it built into their billing infrastructure.

Not feeling sorry for PG&E
 
2012-12-18 11:56:40 PM

Mikeyworld: Go California! This'll drive the cost of solar panels and reverse power equipment down to livable levels, Now, they just need to incorporate the panels into roofing, so we can kill stones with one bird. How long does a solar panel last out in the weather, anyways?


20 years or so per http://scitizen.com/future-energies/how-long-do-solar-panels-last-_a-1 4-2897.html
Pay off is 12 years or so in per http://www.moneyweek.com/personal-finance/will-solar-panels-pay-for-th emselves-47322

Huge problem from my perspective. I dont want to be a slave to anyone for that long.
 
2012-12-18 11:56:48 PM

Pribar: vudukungfu: But you build one little tiny reactor in your garden shed, and they swoop in on you like you're some kind of a freak.
 
Yea nothing at al freakish about the dude....
 
 
[i135.photobucket.com image 350x450]


He go hunting with Dick Cheney?
 
2012-12-19 12:01:52 AM

Ima4nic8or: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We could nationalize the wires and treat it like a public good, similar to the highways or (hopefully) the internet. Then use public money to upgrade and maintain it - similar to the Department of Transportation on the state level.
 
But I'm just a crazy liberal.

No, you are a crazy socialist.

A government takeover is not a solution. We need to encourage competition. Why do I have only one option for electricity? Why only one option for water? What is this communist Russia? Where are the goddamn competitors? That is the only way to bring prices down to a reasonable level. As long as government selected monopolies control these things we will pay through the nose.


Competition for transmission wires? That's certainly free-market-y. You see, as I said before, I'm a crazy liberal, and I believe we tried competition for stuff like that and it didn't work (Philadelphia fire department, circa 1780 and New York DC electric wires in the Edison/Tesla days). I'm certainly open to the idea of putting enough solar panels everywhere to allow anyone to sell excess electricity and be their own power company, just like I support the idea that anyone could open their own ISP if the "tubes" of the internet are nationalized. Water is a bit more tricky, but if someone can present an actual viable solution to make monopolistic water utilities obsolete, I'd love to hear it. Until then, deal with it.
 
I want the method and medium of transmission as public property, not the actual companies behind it. But just keep whacking at that strawman.
 
2012-12-19 12:02:08 AM

Ima4nic8or:
Pay off is 12 years or so in per http://www.moneyweek.com/personal-finance/will-solar-panels-pay-for-th emselves-47322

Huge problem from my perspective. I don't want to be a slave to anyone for that long.


When I was in sixth grade, lo these many years, I wrote a report on solar energy. At the time, I vaguely recall that the payoff time was 10-12 years. *sigh*
 
2012-12-19 12:02:48 AM

Ima4nic8or: Mikeyworld: Go California! This'll drive the cost of solar panels and reverse power equipment down to livable levels, Now, they just need to incorporate the panels into roofing, so we can kill stones with one bird. How long does a solar panel last out in the weather, anyways?

20 years or so per http://scitizen.com/future-energies/how-long-do-solar-panels-last-_a-1 4-2897.html
Pay off is 12 years or so in per http://www.moneyweek.com/personal-finance/will-solar-panels-pay-for-th emselves-47322

Huge problem from my perspective. I dont want to be a slave to anyone for that long.


20 years is the expected life but I've seen people saying that as long as they're undamaged the ones that have been around 30-40 years are still pumping out electrons.
 
2012-12-19 12:04:43 AM
It's like a child deduction but THE SUN!
 
2012-12-19 12:05:04 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Pud: What is I use another power source? Like the one I saw in this documentary a few years ago. Do I get the discount then?

This always bugged me. Why not just have the energy generated by a perpetual motion machine? The science is essentially the same.


Because in the original script they were apparently ACTUALLY using humans for processing that the machines were not as good at/as efficient at. Our meat brains were much, much better suited for some tasks, apparently.

Some of that processing power was used to *maintain* the matrix, which was what allowed humans aware of it (and with sufficient mental fortitude/abilities) to alter their environment within it: Because they were *part* of the processing, they could alter it.

.. Executives decided this was 'too confusing' for moviegoers and made them change it.
 
2012-12-19 12:05:26 AM
hmm, an article with it's only sources Southern Edison and PG&E.

How remarkable the conclusions.


Why nary a mention of the cost of building new coal and natural gas and nuclear plants to meet the power needs and the transmission lines and approval process in their cost projections that have been saved by consumer photovoltaic supply.


funny that.
 
2012-12-19 12:07:21 AM
Oh and privatization lol.

The rules are shortsighted because eventually rates must be raised to make up the difference, according to Southern California Edison, which has joined with competitors to estimate potential losses.

/fees shorty fees
 
2012-12-19 12:08:04 AM
Ok, now I am mad. This article got me to wondering if I could escape PG&E by simply installing a full time diesel generator. After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF? Why is it anyone's business how I power my own home? Goddamn bunch of facists whores for PG&E is what the government is.
 
2012-12-19 12:11:18 AM
Power companies always have complained about this. They get all sorts of right of ways to run those power lines. California's goal is to have 33% of their power from renewables by 2020, but only some of that will be solar. Most home solar installations don't produce that much surplus energy, and when they are producing the most energy, it's when the grid needs it the most. Those same homes will buy it back at night. Utility companies actually build dams and pump water back up at night to do the same thing. They run the water back down during peak demand. It's basically a battery that lets them smooth their load. They actually build their own facilities to do this. Solar, they are getting without the outlay of cash. When these articles come along it's not because it's actually hurting the power companies, it's because it's not helping them as much as it could (if they could, for instance get it free). They pay for some PR releases and try to take money out of the pocket of people putting up solar. Why? Because most people putting up solar aren't part of a huge lobby. Utilities have all sorts of special perks that they won't give up. Their right of ways alone! Part of the social contract for letting them have all those right of ways is they have to charge and pay competitive rates. It's probably not practical to set up a market for selling home solar back to the company and negotiated rates. The companies hold publicly granted virtual monopolies on the delivery. Even on that day, very far off in the future, when we wean ourselves off fossil fuels, there will still be lots of demand for energy delivery.

The worst part of this article is the fact that the power companies are complaining trying to stir up sentiment with the people who they are charging more for electricity. Part of the deal with the public right of ways is energy commissions have some say in rate hikes. The power companies fight this tooth and nail. If they didn't have that monopoly though, they wouldn't be able to pass the price on to the consumer. They'd most likely have to eat it, because their competitors would undersell them. There is some competition in power delivery now, but it's mostly more costly, buy green power sorts of stuff. The power companies use the cheapest available power source and pay almost none of the social costs (like pollution downwind from their plant.)

This can effect poorer people. The solution is more programs to make low interest loans to low income households, and to let landlords sell to their renters at market prices. As long as those programs are in place, it's good economics.

Before anyone feels to sorry for the utilities, remember these are the same utilities that illegally manipulated the energy markets a decade ago.

Okay, maybe that was an incoherent rant. I see this silly argument over and over.  If they don't think they can make money on it, turn the grid over to the government. They can maintain it along with the roads and other public good projects.
 
2012-12-19 12:12:13 AM
Somehow, the entire Enron fark-up-the-ass has been forgotten entirely.

When your local production doesn't keep up, you pay double or triple for your power.


Thank Yahweh that you are getting microproduction all across the state. You farking morons. Stop trying to sneak in yet more ways to fark over your consumers.
 
2012-12-19 12:12:42 AM

Ima4nic8or: Ok, now I am mad. This article got me to wondering if I could escape PG&E by simply installing a full time diesel generator. After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF? Why is it anyone's business how I power my own home? Goddamn bunch of facists whores for PG&E is what the government is.


for what you would pay to power with gas etc you could buy twice the necessary amount of solar panels.

/go dave.
 
2012-12-19 12:14:38 AM

MrEricSir: MaudlinMutantMollusk: F*ck PG&E
 
/seriously... they're just evil

Sshh, don't let them hear you say that. They might blow up your entire neighborhood.


This reminds me of when their main grid station for the wind farm out here had a major component blow up, knocking out grid for close to 1000 wind turbines. Made my job easy for a few days until it came back on and all of my turbines were having a shiat fit over it.

/heard the pop in the distance from several miles away.
 
2012-12-19 12:16:04 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier:
But I'm just a crazy liberal.


i agree
 
2012-12-19 12:17:09 AM

Ima4nic8or: After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?


www.qwantz.com
 
2012-12-19 12:22:29 AM

dbaggins: Somehow, the entire Enron fark-up-the-ass has been forgotten entirely.

When your local production doesn't keep up, you pay double or triple for your power.


Thank Yahweh that you are getting microproduction all across the state. You farking morons. Stop trying to sneak in yet more ways to fark over your consumers.



Silicon Valley runs almost completely on Google windfarms and solar panels ? NO, but it would solve a hell of a lot of transmission requirements. Would you rather buy that power over wimpy powerlines from Oregon, or Washington, or Texas ? really ? well, that's what you are going to have to do next summer if you don't get with the program your dinosaurs.
 
2012-12-19 12:26:47 AM

lousyskater: MrEricSir: MaudlinMutantMollusk: F*ck PG&E
 
/seriously... they're just evil

Sshh, don't let them hear you say that. They might blow up your entire neighborhood.

This reminds me of when their main grid station for the wind farm out here had a major component blow up, knocking out grid for close to 1000 wind turbines. Made my job easy for a few days until it came back on and all of my turbines were having a shiat fit over it.

/heard the pop in the distance from several miles away.



Heh... not surprising
 
/that farm shows up on doppler radar
//I worked on those salt water intrusion gates near Crows Landing
 
2012-12-19 12:30:52 AM
"After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.
 
2012-12-19 12:32:03 AM

This poster says: "After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.


Not to mention the pollution standards that a home generator could never hope to match.
 
2012-12-19 12:34:22 AM

Girion47: This poster says: "After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.

Not to mention the pollution standards that a home generator could never hope to match.


Fark you... that air is on MY property!
 
2012-12-19 12:35:49 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: lousyskater: MrEricSir: MaudlinMutantMollusk: F*ck PG&E
 
/seriously... they're just evil

Sshh, don't let them hear you say that. They might blow up your entire neighborhood.

This reminds me of when their main grid station for the wind farm out here had a major component blow up, knocking out grid for close to 1000 wind turbines. Made my job easy for a few days until it came back on and all of my turbines were having a shiat fit over it.

/heard the pop in the distance from several miles away.


Heh... not surprising
 
/that farm shows up on doppler radar
//I worked on those salt water intrusion gates near Crows Landing


Haha, yeah. We get text messages from a weather service for any kind of thunderstorms in the area so we can get down from the tower before any lightning shows up(rare as hell around here, but it still happens). We had to tweak the message settings so that it'd only send messages on lightning strikes within 30 miles because it was just sending us messages left and right because of the effect the farm has on doppler radar.
 
2012-12-19 12:35:55 AM
Good thing for me I don't live in California. Terrain and latitude physically rule out any sort of solar power for me. If I was charged a premium for not using solar - I'd make a big stink.

/So... Chop down a bunch of trees and flatten that mountain and change the declination of the planet then I would be able to produce my own solar power.
//They won't let me dam the nearby stream and generate my own hydro power.
 
2012-12-19 12:36:05 AM
So why is the government forcing utilities to pay an above market price for electricity generated by homeowners? The utilities could just pay the price they buy it from others and then everything would work out fine.

Or is this just a scheme to so that solar panel owners don't have put in storage systems for cloudy days and yet have the economic benefit as if they had? (They get to use the grid as a free battery essentially, they put power in on sunny days and take it out on cloudy days)
 
2012-12-19 12:36:17 AM

Girion47: This also happens with out soh panus.

[hitchcockandme.files.wordpress.com image 600x294] 

/obscure?


You want to put the solar panels on the ROOF? You mad geniuses!
 
2012-12-19 12:37:26 AM

Ima4nic8or: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: We could nationalize the wires and treat it like a public good, similar to the highways or (hopefully) the internet. Then use public money to upgrade and maintain it - similar to the Department of Transportation on the state level.
 
But I'm just a crazy liberal.

No, you are a crazy socialist.

A government takeover is not a solution. We need to encourage competition. Why do I have only one option for electricity? Why only one option for water? What is this communist Russia? Where are the goddamn competitors? That is the only way to bring prices down to a reasonable level. As long as government selected monopolies control these things we will pay through the nose.



Like that neighborhood in Arizona where they let everyone choose their own trash company, so every day there's a dozen different trash trucks rumbling down the streets, spewing exhaust, and making noise, and all the garbage cans are always out because everyone's trash day is different.
 
yay free market!
 
2012-12-19 12:40:04 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Dude, if you're interested in this, check out The Hunt for Zero Point by Nick Cook. It's a fascinating investigation into 20th century claims of free energy, and how a looming breakthrough all but vanished mysteriously and abruptly.

The author reports his findings in a "just the facts" style, allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. Fascinating read.


Sounds like a crackpot book, to be honest. It's investigating claims that break every law of physics known, something that is quite literally impossible, and then "leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusions" about something that is impossible.
 
2012-12-19 12:41:10 AM

This poster says: "After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.


But 240V is 240V regardless of how it is generated. So it's logically not the 'someone is incompetent so nobody can' safety reasoning behind banning just some methods.
 
2012-12-19 12:44:31 AM

jack21221: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Dude, if you're interested in this, check out The Hunt for Zero Point by Nick Cook. It's a fascinating investigation into 20th century claims of free energy, and how a looming breakthrough all but vanished mysteriously and abruptly.

The author reports his findings in a "just the facts" style, allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. Fascinating read.

Sounds like a crackpot book, to be honest. It's investigating claims that break every law of physics known, something that is quite literally impossible, and then "leaves the reader to draw his/her own conclusions" about something that is impossible.


Physics is heading towards zero-point, not away from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

In the early 20th century this would have been called 'the ether' or something similar.
 
2012-12-19 12:47:01 AM

leadmetal: This poster says: "After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.

But 240V is 240V regardless of how it is generated. So it's logically not the 'someone is incompetent so nobody can' safety reasoning behind banning just some methods.


So, when your rogue generation kills a linemen, you'll be ok with explaining that to their family, friends and co-workers?
 
2012-12-19 12:52:58 AM
Wow. Am I the only one who's having trouble summoning any outrage over this?

If a house burned down to the ground and never purchased electricity ever again, no one would think it unfair that that house never paid another penny for grid maintenance and upgrades. As the house is no longer a PG&E customer, it's no longer required to contribute to pay to maintain the grid it no longer uses.

Now replace "burned down to the ground" with "got solar panels and produced more electricity than it uses."
 
2012-12-19 12:55:01 AM

badLogic: leadmetal: This poster says: "After a google search it turns out that creating residential power using gas, diesel, or propane among other methods is illegal. WTF?"

With good reason. Because it is very possible to KILL me or my crew if everyone was allowed to generate in parallel with the grid. Transformers aren't directional; you generate 240v single phase for your house, and it will backfeed into the grid, even if I have a line out of service. However you generate it, it will feed into the distribution system stepping up to the tens of thousands of volts. Let's say I'm working on a supposedly dead line then someone turns on a generator somewhere without opening their main dx. That someone just energized what I'm working on with lethal levels of voltage. Co-generation is marked on area maps by a power system engineer so we know where to go to lock out their switchgear so that this cannot happen. "Rouge generation" (as it is called) can end someone's life.

It is a good thing it is illegal. You can't trust johnny jackoff the homeowner with these sorts of things.

But 240V is 240V regardless of how it is generated. So it's logically not the 'someone is incompetent so nobody can' safety reasoning behind banning just some methods.

So, when your rogue generation kills a linemen, you'll be ok with explaining that to their family, friends and co-workers?


Huh? WTF?
Again, if 240V comes from A how is that safer if it comes from B?

This is simple logic. Why do you trust Joe Blow not to kill you with generation method A, but not trust Bob Blow who uses generation method B? Why is the guy who uses A not presumed to be a moron?

It doesn't make any rational sense to do it that way. Regardless of generation method the same automatic switchover equipment to isolate the home from the grid or manual throwing of the main breaker is required.
 
2012-12-19 12:55:13 AM
I live just a few miles from the Livermore wind farm, which produces absolutely nothing, so I'm NOT getting a kick out of this.
 
2012-12-19 12:58:26 AM
Cant I just do away with the risk to the lineman by totally disconnecting the line coming in from PG&E? How could anyone object then?

As for the concerns about the air: feh. I am willing to breath it. It would be the smell of freedom. Air quality should be determined by the free market. If you want cleaner air, pollute less. If you think it is plenty clean you can chose some dirtier method to generate power. In the end those in the majority will win out. If most folks want really clean air then most will chose clean methods of power generation, cars, etc.. If most folks are willing to put a bit more stuff in the air to save some money then they would on occasion chose dirtier methods. Democracy at work.
 
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