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(The Detroit_News)   Michigan Governor Rick Snyder decides arming teachers after eliminating their collective bargaining rights is not the greatest idea in the world   (detroitnews.com) divider line 159
    More: Obvious, Governors of Michigan, teachers  
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2776 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Dec 2012 at 6:45 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-18 03:49:20 PM  
Too bad he realized the obvious.
 
2012-12-18 03:57:03 PM  
Smart man. Those farking teachers were destroying America quickly enough with their finger paint and their bake sales, and their not talking about Jesus.
 
2012-12-18 04:08:55 PM  
Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.
 
2012-12-18 04:13:21 PM  
WHY are these freedom loving Amerikans (tm) worried about concealed carry??
Why isnt ALL carry exposed?
It should be legal to shoot and kill anyone carrying a concealed weapon.
WHAT are they hiding???!!!!

FREAKS

on a slightly more serious note
REALLY
concealed carry in the schools??
I dont know which is worse.
 
2012-12-18 04:33:35 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.


This is what they believe though..... if only that teacher would have had a gun, she have taken him out.

Never mind that she had no idea he was coming, so, she is his first shot, she's dead, kids are still dead.

Let's not suggest such stupidity, spend our money and time on better solutions...
1. Better security at schools (alarm systems that trigger when things like glass panes break, security cameras with someone in the security room watching during school hours, etc).
2. Have schools as a "base" for where we collect (anonymous) information about kids (whether in school or out of school) about possible psychological issues. If people are encouraged to report things they witness there, to one location, potentially "troubled" kids can be discovered and gotten help earlier. Instead of after the fact having dozens of people coming out of the woodwork saying "Oh yeah, he had issues"...

I know, giving teachers guns is much cheaper. Sorry, sometimes you have to spend money to actually be safer.
 
2012-12-18 04:40:15 PM  

dletter: I know, giving teachers guns is much cheaper. Sorry, sometimes you have to spend money to actually be safer.


except that none of these things will make us safer.
this crap would take decades to implement and cost bills and we are still letting the worst criminals right into the school. Make the kids stay home where they belong!!
 
2012-12-18 04:47:08 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.


Exactly. Every teacher should have a nuclear first-strike capability, particularly the underpaid ones with thirty-five screaming little psycho weasels and helicopter parents guarding each precious can-do-no-wrong snowflake.

dletter: If people are encouraged to report things they witness there, to one location, potentially "troubled" kids can be discovered and gotten help earlier.


Presuming you have sufficiently funded political structure that thinks those with trouble should be helped so that they have less trouble, rather than one that thinks they should be locked up so that they are less trouble.
 
2012-12-18 04:48:24 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.


One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.
 
2012-12-18 04:49:49 PM  

abb3w: Every teacher should have a nuclear first-strike capability


IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION, PEOPLE!!1!
 
2012-12-18 06:18:24 PM  
There has not been an elimination of collective bargaining rights. There is no longer a mandatory requirement that you be in a union to work as a teacher.
 
2012-12-18 06:20:23 PM  

GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.


If the lady that took several bullets while trying to lunge at the shooter had had a gun (or for that matter, a crossbow, or even a baseball bat), you think this might've turned out differently?

Or maybe the thought that he might've got dropped before getting ten feet inside the door might've been a deterrent.
 
2012-12-18 06:22:00 PM  

namatad: WHY are these freedom loving Amerikans (tm) worried about concealed carry??
Why isnt ALL carry exposed?
It should be legal to shoot and kill anyone carrying a concealed weapon.
WHAT are they hiding???!!!!

FREAKS

on a slightly more serious note
REALLY
concealed carry in the schools??
I dont know which is worse.


There were (at least) two shootings in schools prior to Columbine, that ended in an armed school employee dropping the attacker with a relatively minimal number of other casualties.

Other than Bath, virtually all of the bloodbaths that have happened since then, have been in places where there were absolutely no weapon like devices allowed.
 
2012-12-18 06:23:06 PM  

dletter: 1. Better security at schools (alarm systems that trigger when things like glass panes break, security cameras with someone in the security room watching during school hours, etc).
2. Have schools as a "base" for where we collect (anonymous) information about kids (whether in school or out of school) about possible psychological issues. If people are encouraged to report things they witness there, to one location, potentially "troubled" kids can be discovered and gotten help earlier. Instead of after the fact having dozens of people coming out of the woodwork saying "Oh yeah, he had issues"...


oh, yes, citizen, report your friends and neighbors if you suspect they may have mental issues.
 
2012-12-18 06:36:31 PM  

ekdikeo4: There were (at least) two shootings in schools prior to Columbine, that ended in an armed school employee dropping the attacker with a relatively minimal number of other casualties.

Other than Bath, virtually all of the bloodbaths that have happened since then, have been in places where there were absolutely no weapon like devices allowed.


You really don't see any problems with introducing hundreds of thousands of firearms into places populated predominantly by curious children?

Not to mention that arming teachers removes the single largest barrier to these shootings, which is getting the weapon in the first place. All a troubled kid has to do is whack his gym teacher in the skull with a baseball bat, grab his gun, and start shooting.
 
2012-12-18 06:40:20 PM  
If we have to arm teachers in order to be safe, we have failed as a society.
 
2012-12-18 06:50:11 PM  
Why not just say "Knee jerk legislation is not going to help anyone" instead of his lame ass reason of ""These public venues need clear legal authority to ban firearms on their premises if they see fit to do so."

Although the tinfoil part of my brain makes me think it's a trap...
 
2012-12-18 06:51:22 PM  
Well, at least he's consistent, unlike the people who were jealous of a teacher's salary last year and saying "arm the teachers" now.

I mean, the good sound Republican solution will be that teachers will be required to take annual gun courses, then be required to carry a firearm with them at all times...all of which will not be covered by administrative costs; teachers will have to pay for these courses and firearms (and bullets) out of their own pockets. A nice, sound, conservative, American, business solution.
 
2012-12-18 06:52:23 PM  

GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.


If its ok for the teachers to play hero by tackling a gunman, I don't see where having them disarmed helps the situation.

/Tho I'd favor having lightly armed/armored security instead.
/The extra staff would still prove useful in the many situations that aren't school shootings.
/Its not like the worlds getting any safer.
 
2012-12-18 06:52:39 PM  

dletter: I know, giving teachers guns is much cheaper. Sorry, sometimes you have to spend money to actually be safer.


Actually, the teachers would probably have to buy their own guns, and pay for their own training, yet not get any Professional Development credit.

Because, you can't trust us to teach, but you can trust us to shoot straight.
 
2012-12-18 06:53:54 PM  
I longed for the days when we could play DodgeRPG in the school yard.
 
2012-12-18 06:54:03 PM  

dethmagnetic: Not to mention that arming teachers removes the single largest barrier to these shootings, which is getting the weapon in the first place


*gasp*! You don't mean to insinuate that fewer guns means fewer chances to get guns, are you? That's a downright unMurcan notion, right there!

/"Criminals are gonna get guns" is not an argument for "So lets make sure everyone has one anyway."
 
2012-12-18 06:54:17 PM  

way south: GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.

If its ok for the teachers to play hero by tackling a gunman, I don't see where having them disarmed helps the situation.

/Tho I'd favor having lightly armed/armored security instead.
/The extra staff would still prove useful in the many situations that aren't school shootings.
/Its not like the worlds getting any safer.


Also, a guy at the local radio station called in a good one: Having something like a panic button the teachers could wear around their necks at all times, to send out a faster alert.
 
2012-12-18 06:55:39 PM  
New Bill: CPL holders who get extra training and an advanced license can carry concealed in schools.

Current Michigan Law: All CPL holders can legally open carry in schools.

Right, makes sense...
 
2012-12-18 06:57:10 PM  
It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.
 
2012-12-18 06:57:37 PM  

ekdikeo4: If the lady that took several bullets while trying to lunge at the shooter had had a gun (or for that matter, a crossbow, or even a baseball bat), you think this might've turned out differently?

Or maybe the thought that he might've got dropped before getting ten feet inside the door might've been a deterrent.


The guy shot himself. Getting shot obviously wasn't a deterrent.

If the lady had a gun on her, it would have been a very unbalanced old west shootout. Can you draw your concealed pistol before the guy with the ready-to-go Bushman .223 can open fire? I'm going to go with no.
 
2012-12-18 07:00:09 PM  
My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually
 
2012-12-18 07:01:07 PM  
30,000 Americans a year killed by firearms. I guess we know how the Republican Party really feels about national security.
 
2012-12-18 07:01:08 PM  

LordJiro: It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.


...we put security guards in our factories, in our shopping areas...why aren't there security guards in schools?

/Oh, wait, I know why...because if we're not willing to pay teachers, then why should we be willing to pay anyone else in school?
 
2012-12-18 07:01:35 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually


Makes as much sense as outlawing computer viruses.
 
2012-12-18 07:02:40 PM  

LordJiro: It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.



Prior to 12/14/12, school teachers were considered lazy, unmotivated wastes of tax money at best, Marxist indoctrinators at worst. Security guards were rent-a-cops who like the feel of a badge and authority, but were too dumb to become real cops.

Now they are a cadre green berets in all but name.
 
2012-12-18 07:03:07 PM  

dletter: 2. Have schools as a "base" for where we collect (anonymous) information about kids (whether in school or out of school) about possible psychological issues. If people are encouraged to report things they witness there, to one location, potentially "troubled" kids can be discovered and gotten help earlier. Instead of after the fact having dozens of people coming out of the woodwork saying "Oh yeah, he had issues"...


...but that would go against our other big culture, summed up in three words: Snitches get stitches.
 
2012-12-18 07:03:54 PM  

Insatiable Jesus: 30,000 Americans a year killed by firearms. I guess we know how the Republican Party really feels about national security.


I keep seeing this number tossed around, but I haven't been able to find a source. Care to enlighten me?
 
2012-12-18 07:04:47 PM  

lotus: Peter von Nostrand: My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually

Makes as much sense as outlawing computer viruses.


So, every computer should have at least one computer virus on it. Y'know, for protection.

/Hey, the analogy was already off the rails...
 
2012-12-18 07:05:51 PM  

LordJiro: It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.


Gun control is gambling on the chance that a lunatic can only buy his firearm from a law abiding source.

/Since similar incidents have also happened outside of Americas guntopia, its not wise to believe the immediate solution is anything but a school security upgrade.
/The rest is just political theater.
 
2012-12-18 07:07:38 PM  

IlGreven: lotus: Peter von Nostrand: My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually

Makes as much sense as outlawing computer viruses.

So, every computer should have at least one computer virus on it. Y'know, for protection.

/Hey, the analogy was already off the rails...


I never said it was a good one
 
2012-12-18 07:08:00 PM  
Which two of these three groups were not targeted by anti-union legislation in Michigan?

A) Police
B) Fireman
C) Teachers

Now name the group that's expected to protect themselves first and foremost before the community.

D) None of the Above
 
2012-12-18 07:08:48 PM  

lotus: Peter von Nostrand: My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually

Makes as much sense as outlawing computer viruses.


Yes because everyone is talking about outlawing all guns
 
2012-12-18 07:09:19 PM  
I think the sensible solution would be to get rid of public schools and jail all the teachers for treason, but what do I know? I'm just a conservative who wants what is right for this country.
 
2012-12-18 07:11:31 PM  
The headline doesn't actually reflect the article, but that's typical for FARK. Artistic license, etc.

The way I've figured it, you only have 2 realistic options:

1) If you make certain public spaces "gun- free", then it's not enough to merely pass a law and hang up a sign. You have to have adequate security to insure that it's *actually* gun free. Metal detectors, pat-downs, guards, locked doors, etc.
2) If you're not going to go to that trouble, you have to allow guns so that the law- abiding citizens to protect themselves and each other from the armed crazies.

You can't just simply pass a law and hang up a sign and expect criminals and loons to obey it. All that creates is a "defenseless victim" zone; literally the worst of both worlds. You may as well just take the kiddies swimming at the beach and chum for sharks.
 
2012-12-18 07:13:02 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: lotus: Peter von Nostrand: My computer has a virus. Guess I'll just keep adding more viruses until the problem is fixed

If the solution to lowering gun violence means adding more guns, then adding more viruses should work like a charm

/wait, that doesn't make sense, actually

Makes as much sense as outlawing computer viruses.

Yes because everyone is talking about outlawing all guns


Ok, we'll just outlaw the really nasty viruses that can damage your data. Trojans can stay.

Meh, I understand your point, I just think gun control, with 300 million legal guns out there right now, will work about as well as the war on drugs has. If I thought gun control would prevent another Sandy Hook, I'd be all for it.
 
2012-12-18 07:13:18 PM  
Yeah, if only the killer's mom had guns and trained regularly with them. Then she could have defended herself and saved those kids.

/oh wait...
 
2012-12-18 07:14:05 PM  

Mike_LowELL: I think the sensible solution would be to get rid of public schools and jail all the teachers for treason, but what do I know? I'm just a conservative who wants what is right for this country.


Yes, jailing all teachers for treason is a completely sensible idea.
 
2012-12-18 07:14:12 PM  
You guys are going to have to explain to me the stigma you have against teachers having any form of self defense capability in cases like this if they chose to accept that responsibility. I don't understand it. Are the kids going to make Mr. Vickers snap and he'll go postal given the chance? Are they incompetent at being reasonably trained at handling a discreet Glock or something or she'll leave it lying around and some kid will shoot up the place or himself?
 
2012-12-18 07:14:19 PM  

way south: LordJiro: It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.

Gun control is gambling on the chance that a lunatic can only buy his firearm from a law abiding source.

/Since similar incidents have also happened outside of Americas guntopia, its not wise to believe the immediate solution is anything but a school security upgrade.
/The rest is just political theater.


So how frequently do similar incidents occur outside of countries that aren't America or actual war zones?
 
2012-12-18 07:20:34 PM  

way south: way south: GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.

If its ok for the teachers to play hero by tackling a gunman, I don't see where having them disarmed helps the situation.

/Tho I'd favor having lightly armed/armored security instead.
/The extra staff would still prove useful in the many situations that aren't school shootings.
/Its not like the worlds getting any safer.

Also, a guy at the local radio station called in a good one: Having something like a panic button the teachers could wear around their necks at all times, to send out a faster alert.


We instituted something like that in our school a couple years ago in response to a creepy guy in the neighborhood.
 
2012-12-18 07:24:11 PM  

GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.


I agree with you about once a year. This year was close, only two weeks left but you got it in under the wire.
 
2012-12-18 07:25:54 PM  

dethmagnetic: ekdikeo4: There were (at least) two shootings in schools prior to Columbine, that ended in an armed school employee dropping the attacker with a relatively minimal number of other casualties.

Other than Bath, virtually all of the bloodbaths that have happened since then, have been in places where there were absolutely no weapon like devices allowed.

You really don't see any problems with introducing hundreds of thousands of firearms into places populated predominantly by curious children?

Not to mention that arming teachers removes the single largest barrier to these shootings, which is getting the weapon in the first place. All a troubled kid has to do is whack his gym teacher in the skull with a baseball bat, grab his gun, and start shooting.


If arming kids is outlawed, only outlaw kids will have guns. Or something.
 
2012-12-18 07:25:56 PM  
Farker Soze: You guys are going to have to explain to me the stigma you have against teachers having any form of self defense capability in cases like this if they chose to accept that responsibility. I don't understand it. Are the kids going to make Mr. Vickers snap and he'll go postal given the chance? Are they incompetent at being reasonably trained at handling a discreet Glock or something or she'll leave it lying around and some kid will shoot up the place or himself?

More or less.
 
2012-12-18 07:27:28 PM  

ekdikeo4: GAT_00: Marcus Aurelius: Because clearly what we really need are more guns in the classroom.

One of the first arguments was that if the principal had just been armed, or the teachers, this would have never happened.

Of course, by that logic, he never could have killed his mother and taken her guns, but hey. Logic isn't a real big player in this scenario, nor is consistency.

If the lady that took several bullets while trying to lunge at the shooter had had a gun (or for that matter, a crossbow, or even a baseball bat), you think this might've turned out differently?

Or maybe the thought that he might've got dropped before getting ten feet inside the door might've been a deterrent.


It's like you just chose to read my comment and say the dumbest thing you could think of.
 
2012-12-18 07:27:31 PM  

IlGreven: LordJiro: It's pathetic that Americans are seriously considering essentially putting farking armed guards in their schools before considering that maybe it's a bit too easy for lunatics to get their hands on firearms.

...we put security guards in our factories, in our shopping areas...why aren't there security guards in schools?

/Oh, wait, I know why...because if we're not willing to pay teachers, then why should we be willing to pay anyone else in school?


Teachers aren't paid? I see Michigan teachers averaged more than $56,000 last year, with nice benefits packages. Now they get nothing. No wonder they're pissed.
 
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