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(The Atlantic)   In a world of 3-D-printed guns, Chris Rock's "bullet control" makes more sense   (theatlantic.com) divider line 208
    More: Unlikely, shooting sprees, guns  
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9560 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2012 at 10:12 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



208 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-12-18 03:20:11 AM  
The argument always made sense.
 
2012-12-18 05:16:20 AM  
I'm sure we won't have any class war talk when the rich are the only ones with guns. Only the boot strappy people have guns. Stop being jealous of the 1%.
 
2012-12-18 07:40:57 AM  
Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-18 07:51:05 AM  

stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets


Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-18 07:58:01 AM  
It works in other countries. Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland because military members keep their rifles at home. What they don't mention is that they are not allowed to keep ammunition. It isn't allowed to leave the range except for certain authorized units.
 
2012-12-18 09:00:09 AM  

vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.


I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it
 
2012-12-18 09:06:54 AM  
Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.

Also, bulletsaren't terribly difficult to make, nor is gunpowder. The primers could cause issue, reloading them is really, really dangerous.

This is not a problem we can just wave away with a simple amount of legislation. It's going to require a multi-step buyback of firearms, investment in mental health programs, regulation of magazines and ammunition, and probably some serious cultural changes (specifically the media) before tragedies like Sandy Hook stop happening. It will be long, hard and really goddamn expensive. It will be immensely unpopular - the left will say it's not good enough, the right will say it's too much, but it's the only real option.
 
2012-12-18 09:57:24 AM  

vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland


What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?
 
2012-12-18 10:15:16 AM  
The bullet is part of the cartridge.
 
2012-12-18 10:16:06 AM  
Shotgun shells aren't hard to make.
 
2012-12-18 10:16:24 AM  
We do not live in a world of 3-d printed guns.
 
2012-12-18 10:17:49 AM  
Wouldn't pull the trigger on that thing. After a few rounds it would blow up in your face.
 
2012-12-18 10:18:36 AM  

Coolfusis: Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.



3D printers today are like computers of the 70s. Big industrial ones cost a fortune, personal desktops are mostly toys. That will change swiftly.
 
2012-12-18 10:19:39 AM  
They still could regulate the primers I suppose, those take a bit more to make than just gunpowder.
 
2012-12-18 10:20:16 AM  
Because it's impossible to make your own bullets
 
2012-12-18 10:20:22 AM  
Wait... Do the anti-2nd amendment folks actually think you can just print out a firearm?
 
2012-12-18 10:20:29 AM  

Coolfusis


Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.


Unless it's a .22 variant (short, long, or long rifle).
 
2012-12-18 10:20:32 AM  
Guns that explode after shooting a few rounds? Looks familiar...
assets-dev.sbndev.net
 
2012-12-18 10:20:57 AM  
The writer is a moron. FTA:

"It doesn't say a single thing about the right to own bullets. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, bullets were largely inert slugs, loaded into flint-lock muskets propelled with loose gunpowder packed into the muzzle. There was no need to assure the right to ammunition, which may be the loophole the government needs to dramatically curtail the scourge of gun violence."

Arms is a broad term and includes not only the guns (or any personal weapon a soldier would be using) but also the things necessary for it, like ammunition. This argument the writer is using is as stupid as the one that claims it only covered muskets.
 
2012-12-18 10:20:58 AM  

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it


Who do you think your are?

subspacecomms.com
 
2012-12-18 10:21:09 AM  

stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets


If somebody is committed enough to their cause to hammer copper sheets into misshapen bullet casings and refine their own urine into saltpeter for homemade gunpowder, I say let them do it.

They'll get about five rounds off before they jam their weapon, and then their compound will be leveled by a drone strike.
 
2012-12-18 10:21:21 AM  

Biness: Shotgun shells aren't hard to make.


Shells as reliable as the ones off the shelf, starting from raw materials, are.
 
2012-12-18 10:21:23 AM  

Coolfusis: Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.

Also, bulletsaren't terribly difficult to make, nor is gunpowder. The primers could cause issue, reloading them is really, really dangerous.

This is not a problem we can just wave away with a simple amount of legislation. It's going to require a multi-step buyback of firearms, investment in mental health programs, regulation of magazines and ammunition, and probably some serious cultural changes (specifically the media) before tragedies like Sandy Hook stop happening. It will be long, hard and really goddamn expensive. It will be immensely unpopular - the left will say it's not good enough, the right will say it's too much, but it's the only real option.


Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...
 
2012-12-18 10:21:45 AM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?


Believing in the Bill of Rights makes you a radical these days.
 
2012-12-18 10:22:11 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Wait... Do the anti-2nd amendment folks actually think you can just print out a firearm?


The part that makes it more than a very nice pipe, yes.
 
2012-12-18 10:22:39 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Wait... Do the anti-2nd amendment folks actually think you can just print out a firearm?


It might not be long before you're able to but I'm not sure what advancement in decentralized manufacturing processes has to do with the 2nd amendment.
 
2012-12-18 10:24:28 AM  
Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?
 
2012-12-18 10:24:59 AM  
It looks to me like we need to regulate 3-D printers if this is the case.
 
2012-12-18 10:25:28 AM  

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it


Sulfer and some form of carbon are easy. I bought a big box of sulfer at a hardware store (garden section). Of course, it came in pellets so I had to spend some time with the mortar and pestle to make it a powder.

The potassium nitrate (salt peter) was more difficult. I was under age at the time, but I brought my dad on board and, with his help, we were able to order a 10 lb container of it from a fireworks supplier. There were a few hoops to jump through (what with this messed up post 9/11 world we live in), but I told them what I was going to do with it and they thought it sounded cool.

I bought those supplies to make my own model rocket engines. I got really into rocketry in high school. I fancy myself a bit of an amateur rocket scientist. There's really not that much to it. The physics is all fairly straight forward... the chemistry is pretty basic. And before you brush me off as some internet kook, I really did put in a lot of time researching the field. Of course, if I was really on the ball, I would have gone through the process of getting legitimately certified. But that's not the kind of person I am.

A few years later I got bored of rockets and moved on to pneumatic potato guns. My masterpiece was a 13 foot long cannon with a 2" diameter barrel. I built the release valve myself. Housed it in a 6" PVC T fitting.

I considered getting into lasers next, but then I graduated college, got a serious girlfriend and a job... the time and money just aren't there at the moment.
 
2012-12-18 10:25:39 AM  
why don't we just regulate SSRIs instead? They are the main factor in most of these mass shootings anyway.
 
2012-12-18 10:25:47 AM  
Take away our guns and someone will just make a phaser. Might be a cool thing to have happen and not to mention all the less lead ammo lying around...
 
2012-12-18 10:26:03 AM  

Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...


3D-printed metal parts have different structural properties than those that are cast from molten metal, or stamped or milled from solid metals.
 
2012-12-18 10:26:13 AM  
What's to stop me from saving my brass and reloading my own bullets?

Lead is sooooo strong it can't be formed into a bullet without Remington's machines.
DERP DERP
 
2012-12-18 10:26:19 AM  
Why is the answer always more and bigger government....Maybe we should start in the home...Where DAD should be!!!
 
2012-12-18 10:26:21 AM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in selected portions of the Bill of Rights, applied to selected portions of the population?

 
2012-12-18 10:26:30 AM  
Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.
 
2012-12-18 10:26:54 AM  

MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.


This is incorrect.
 
2012-12-18 10:27:52 AM  

black_knight: Guns that explode after shooting a few rounds? Looks familiar...
[assets-dev.sbndev.net image 300x300]

I wish they made guns like that. I have a really hard time reloading weapons since I lost both of my thumbs in a horrifc foreplay accident.
 
2012-12-18 10:28:17 AM  

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.


There are printers that work with materials other than plastic. They're still a bit pricey, but how much does it cost to acquire a fully legal full-auto weapon?
 
2012-12-18 10:29:11 AM  
The real issue is that reloading is not a big thing right now given how cheaply you can get bulk ammo. Between the time to reload and that risks that stem from having a shiatload of gun powder sitting around in a cask, most people prefer just to buy bulk ammo even if it costs more.

If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

The general issue with expensive bullets is that guns are the most useful when the act of drawing and firing the weapon is muscle memory. It's why the military and police spend so much time on the range. It's also why self defense instructors tell people to practice. The gun is no good against the rapist if you just freeze up. By making bullets more expensive you reduce the range time and expertise of legit gun owners. You can do a lot of the initial training with a CO2 blowback gun that has the same weight and shape as your handgun, but at the end of the day you need to send real rounds down range to get used to the recoil.
 
2012-12-18 10:29:17 AM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?


He means anyone that doesn't piss themselves and sob uncontrollably in the corner at the thought of a firearm
 
2012-12-18 10:30:12 AM  

pyrotek85: ...Arms is a broad term and includes not only the guns (or any personal weapon a soldier would be using) but also the things necessary for it, like ammunition...


And this is why we have people like you interpreting law and the constitution.
 
2012-12-18 10:30:46 AM  

ha-ha-guy: The real issue is that reloading is not a big thing right now given how cheaply you can get bulk ammo. Between the time to reload and that risks that stem from having a shiatload of gun powder sitting around in a cask, most people prefer just to buy bulk ammo even if it costs more.

If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

The general issue with expensive bullets is that guns are the most useful when the act of drawing and firing the weapon is muscle memory. It's why the military and police spend so much time on the range. It's also why self defense instructors tell people to practice. The gun is no good against the rapist if you just freeze up. By making bullets more expensive you reduce the range time and expertise of legit gun owners. You can do a lot of the initial training with a CO2 blowback gun that has the same weight and shape as your handgun, but at the end of the day you need to send real rounds down range to get used to the recoil.


I have a feeling that people who bring up regulation like this don't like guns at all.
 
2012-12-18 10:30:49 AM  

poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.


educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)
 
2012-12-18 10:31:07 AM  
The pro-gun crowd has argued themselves into a corner. If their argument is everyone have a gun, then every 6 year old needs a gun. If their argument is less gun control, then everyone should be able to buy bazookas. If their argument is more criminal prosecution, then every slightly weird person should be what? Locked up?

The jig is up, there's too many guns, too many powerful guns, too much gun worship and fetishes. Time to come down hard on these 100 round automatic killing machines.

They serve no purpose but to mass kill.
 
2012-12-18 10:31:16 AM  

MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.


30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.
 
2012-12-18 10:31:28 AM  

Coolfusis:
This is not a problem we can just wave away with a simple amount of legislation. It's going to require a multi-step buyback of firearms, investment in mental health programs, regulation of magazines and ammunition, and probably some serious cultural changes (specifically the media) before tragedies like Sandy Hook stop happening. It will be long, hard and really goddamn expensive. It will be immensely unpopular - the left will say it's not good enough, the right will say it's too much, but it's the only real option.


Hey there, stop making sense! We want easy solutions that should please everyone at once, if you don't have that we don't want to hear it! Good day, sir!
 
2012-12-18 10:31:36 AM  

vpb: It works in other countries. Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland because military members keep their rifles at home. What they don't mention is that they are not allowed to keep ammunition. It isn't allowed to leave the range except for certain authorized units.


Swiss reservists who maintain a firearm also keep a sealed tin of ammunition. That tin is checked annually when the reservist reports for duty: if the tin is unsealed, the person goes to jail. Most ammunition in Switzerland is sold at shooting ranges, and the law says that it must be used at the range. However, enforcement of that law can be spotty.
 
2012-12-18 10:31:40 AM  

ElLoco: It looks to me like we need to regulate 3-D printers if this is the case.


"Guns don't kill people, 3-D printers that print guns kill people"?
 
2012-12-18 10:32:23 AM  

NeoBad: Take away our guns and someone will just make a phaser. Might be a cool thing to have happen and not to mention all the less lead ammo lying around...


Done.
 
2012-12-18 10:32:50 AM  
Meh.
Black Market weapons imported from foreign countries will work just fine.
 
2012-12-18 10:33:08 AM  

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


This is the real issue, and the one for which I have no answers. Breakdown of the family, increased medication of kids, tv/video game addictions, people unwilling to call crazy people crazy.

no idea. but, maybe some of those things
 
2012-12-18 10:33:42 AM  

Psycoholic_Slag: Meh.
Black Market weapons imported from foreign countries will work just fine.


That would be kind of funny if we legalized weed and banned guns so Mexico just ends up importing weapons to keep up some sort of illegal trade
 
2012-12-18 10:33:45 AM  

Itstoearly


MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.

30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.
 
2012-12-18 10:34:25 AM  

MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.


Then all we have to do is get the criminals to buy their ammo legally. Just like every other gun control scheme, it only stops the people who obey the laws.

Last I checked, shooting up a school is illegal. But, oh, maybe he would have been stopped by a possession charge, is that it? Seriously?
 
2012-12-18 10:34:28 AM  

johnnyrocket: The pro-gun crowd has argued themselves into a corner. If their argument is everyone have a gun, then every 6 year old needs a gun. If their argument is less gun control, then everyone should be able to buy bazookas. If their argument is more criminal prosecution, then every slightly weird person should be what? Locked up?

The jig is up, there's too many guns, too many powerful guns, too much gun worship and fetishes. Time to come down hard on these 100 round automatic killing machines.

They serve no purpose but to mass kill.


3/10

/had me until "100 round automatic killing machines"
 
2012-12-18 10:34:44 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...

3D-printed metal parts have different structural properties than those that are cast from molten metal, or stamped or milled from solid metals.


Yeah but you can mass produce all the low stress parts of the gun via printer and then just handmake (or rig up some ad hoc machine shop to stamp) a few key parts out. The threat is not a fully assembled and auto M-4 coming out of the printer, but rather that now one dude with a printer and a basement full of machine tools can make a few dozen guns a day, whereas in the past it might have taken a week to spit them out.

Also for guns subject to lower stresses, you can likely print the whole thing. A .22 or whatever will work just fine with printed metal I bet.

/plus the lower is the legally controlled part, so in theory you could buy everything else legally in bulk and just have a machine spitting out lowers
 
2012-12-18 10:34:47 AM  
Hard casting bullets is trivial. Making modern fmj, jhp, etc is not.

Making cases is well beyond the home reloader, as is making primers (fulminated mercury). As for using black powder, all modern guns are designed for stuff like nitrocellulose - black powder would foul a modern gun quickly (gas impingement systems like an AR probably wouldn't make it through a single magazine.)

In short, I think an ammo tax probably would reduce shootings. Certainly people would work harder to secure their valuable ammunition. It wouldn't affect hunters, but it would probably end target shooting except for the very wealthy. Crime in urban centers would probably nosedive. Hard to shoot if you can't afford ammo.
 
2012-12-18 10:34:57 AM  
bullets / guns are not so much the issue IMHO as is guns/arms that shoot a shiatload of rounds in a tiny space of time. that's where things get dicey right quick. it's like power guzzling a 1/4 keg instead of a 12 oz can. ridiculous.

if a concern is squelching madmen who have snapped a good start may be to do like a Farker told us they do in some Asian countries. stop having one P.D. in one town housing a large crew of donut munchers. station your crew in small posts all over town.

i live in a tiny town with a huge amount of well paid law enforcement. heavy on the mini vans, SUVs, soccer moms & school kids. i really doubt tax payers would object to having a uniform that circulates from school to school on a secret schedule.
 
2012-12-18 10:35:18 AM  

MythDragon: poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)


there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time
 
2012-12-18 10:35:31 AM  
Wow...just wow...
You can't manufacturer an entire firearm with a 3d printer. The barrel, bolt/slide assembly, receiver, etc. must be made of metal or your cool gun is going to fall apart the first time you use it and the bullet won't have enough power to penetrate a piece of paper.
Manufacturing a machine gun is still illegal on the Federal level without the proper licensing (because being illegal never stopped anyone before, right?)
So all of these anti-gun-omg-please-think-of-the-children types can calm the fark down.
 
2012-12-18 10:35:43 AM  

Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...


I am aware of prototyping machines that can work titanium. They are readily available if you'd like to trade your house for one. I mean, assuming your house is worth enough.

As for steel, I'm pretty sure all the 3d printing applications that use the material are a mixture of stainless steel and bronze. Even then the produced components wouldn't hold up if used in a firearm. It's stronger than the polymers used in typical 3d printing but you could still destroy the resulting object with your bare hands.

You'd be better off simply beating people to death some part from the printer itself.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:29 AM  

elmixtli: stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it

Who do you think your are?

[subspacecomms.com image 618x370]


We are the Metrons.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:35 AM  

Biness: there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time


Guy had a tumor in his head that made him crazy.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:58 AM  

ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.


That's illegal without a federal firearms license.
 
2012-12-18 10:37:14 AM  
Itstoearly
30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


You're right. Do it a la NY. 75% federal tax on the sale price of bullets charged directly to the sellers/distributors.
 
2012-12-18 10:38:22 AM  
3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.
 
2012-12-18 10:38:46 AM  

aevert: ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

That's illegal without a federal firearms license.


And you think the preppers will care? Drive out to some dude's farm, cash on the barrel, leave with ammo.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:18 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.


Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:22 AM  

cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.


We had two at my college, weird how things change. They're pretty cool devices.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:53 AM  
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Writer doesn't understand what he's quoted.

"Well regulated," can be taken to mean, as Alexander Hamilton argued, and has been interpreted through both legislation and the courts to mean, "arm, train, equip and organize." "Keep and bear arms" was written in the time of the musket. It stands to reason the bullets were part of the equation.

Once again we come back to the "militia being necessary to the security of a free state," and those exist in the form of the Army and Air National Guard, with the separate militia being state defense services, like the Texas State Guard. It is not you and your whacker buddies, with your SUVs clad with ham radio call signs, Skywarn stickers and NRA slogans, with a bunch of surplus gear, playing army. In fact you and your buddies get in the way during real emergencies where real first responders are needed.

Anyway it's not a simple as taking the bullets away, when it can be argued they're a crucial part of bearing arms.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:56 AM  

aevert: ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

That's illegal without a federal firearms license.


Well THAT has always stopped people from making a buck or two.
 
2012-12-18 10:42:49 AM  
Perhaps the best argument in favor of limiting ammunition, though, is this. The mantra of firearms advocates is the Second Amendment to the Constitution, which reads:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It doesn't say a single thing about the right to own bullets. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, bullets were largely inert slugs, loaded into flint-lock muskets propelled with loose gunpowder packed into the muzzle. There was no need to assure the right to ammunition, which may be the loophole the government needs to dramatically curtail the scourge of gun violence.


Any competent lawyer would get this bullshiat thrown out in a court in 5 minutes as attempting to subvert the 2nd Amendment.

Now...in NYC today, assuming I know the right guy, I can get my hands very easily on a cheap pack of Marlborough Lights. Not imitations, the real thing. How? Simple. The black market.

So you want to make it so that ammunition is grossly expensive. Let's say you can even get enough Liberal judges to buy off on that and it passes Constitutional muster, which of course it won't. How soon before the black market becomes the place to buy ammo and we create a whole new crop of gangsters who get rich? A New York Minute, that's how long.

/Drew, I love you man but find whoever greenlit this bovine scatology and give them some wall-to-wall remedial training
 
2012-12-18 10:44:49 AM  

hdhale: Any competent lawyer would get this bullshiat thrown out in a court in 5 minutes as attempting to subvert the 2nd Amendment.


A competent lawyer would ride it for three or four years worth of legal challenges and make bank along every step of the way.
 
2012-12-18 10:44:56 AM  
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Just so we know what we are, and are not, arguing about.
 
2012-12-18 10:45:43 AM  

Private_Citizen: primers (fulminated mercury)


Fulminated mercury hasn't been used for primers in decades. It's usually lead styphnate these days, and there some which are heavy-metal free.
 
2012-12-18 10:45:48 AM  
Why can't you use the 3D printer to print rounds, subby?
 
2012-12-18 10:45:52 AM  
A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
 
2012-12-18 10:46:17 AM  

verbaltoxin: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Writer doesn't understand what he's quoted.

"Well regulated," can be taken to mean, as Alexander Hamilton argued, and has been interpreted through both legislation and the courts to mean, "arm, train, equip and organize." "Keep and bear arms" was written in the time of the musket. It stands to reason the bullets were part of the equation.

Once again we come back to the "militia being necessary to the security of a free state," and those exist in the form of the Army and Air National Guard, with the separate militia being state defense services, like the Texas State Guard. It is not you and your whacker buddies, with your SUVs clad with ham radio call signs, Skywarn stickers and NRA slogans, with a bunch of surplus gear, playing army. In fact you and your buddies get in the way during real emergencies where real first responders are needed.

Anyway it's not a simple as taking the bullets away, when it can be argued they're a crucial part of bearing arms.


I've maintained that "right to keep and bear arms" wasn't written about muskets. It was written about guns in general. After the boston massacre one of the first things the British tried to do, to quell rebellion, was to attempt to confiscate guns and powder. Thus, the founding fathers knew the value of weaponry in fighting tyranny and maintaining freedom. Debate regulations, fine, but thats the historical context of the 2nd amendment.

source: Link
 
2012-12-18 10:46:32 AM  
The 3D printers would only be used for the lower (the FFL part). All other parts could be ordered from Brownells or another parts supplier. There are plenty of guns that don't beat the lowers to death (ARs for example) and lots of handguns that already use plastic lowers. With a few stragegic pieces of metal in a nylon printed lower (for the guide rails, etc), you could make a pretty good, completely unregistered/unregulated glock/sigma/XD, etc.

That's why ammo control makes a bit more sense than gun control (to many guns out there, and easy to get/make more).
 
2012-12-18 10:47:58 AM  

Private_Citizen: Hard casting bullets is trivial. Making modern fmj, jhp, etc is not.

Making cases is well beyond the home reloader, as is making primers (fulminated mercury). As for using black powder, all modern guns are designed for stuff like nitrocellulose - black powder would foul a modern gun quickly (gas impingement systems like an AR probably wouldn't make it through a single magazine.)

In short, I think an ammo tax probably would reduce shootings. Certainly people would work harder to secure their valuable ammunition. It wouldn't affect hunters, but it would probably end target shooting except for the very wealthy. Crime in urban centers would probably nosedive. Hard to shoot if you can't afford ammo.


You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.
 
2012-12-18 10:48:42 AM  

johnnyrocket: The pro-gun crowd has argued themselves into a corner. If their argument is everyone have a gun, then every 6 year old needs a gun. If their argument is less gun control, then everyone should be able to buy bazookas. If their argument is more criminal prosecution, then every slightly weird person should be what? Locked up?

The jig is up, there's too many guns, too many powerful guns, too much gun worship and fetishes. Time to come down hard on these 100 round automatic killing machines.

They serve no purpose but to mass kill.


I hope you're trolling
 
2012-12-18 10:48:50 AM  

ktybear: The argument always made sense.


IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.
 
2012-12-18 10:48:57 AM  

incendi: There are printers that work with materials other than plastic.


If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.
 
2012-12-18 10:49:48 AM  

Biness: This is the real issue, and the one for which I have no answers. Breakdown of the family, increased medication of kids, tv/video game addictions, people unwilling to call crazy people crazy.no idea. but, maybe some of those things


Intentional efforts to delegitimize the justice system by redefining criminals into "victims of society" and their victims into "criminally stupid people who are to blame for their own suffering."

We always had reasonable gun control, just like we always had reasonable restrictions on free speech. The difference is we now have a growing segment of the population that feels it's entitled to manipulate every non-physical aspect of civilization to get what they want without giving up anything in return, and if doing so destroys the civilization, well that's just everybody else's fault for not respecting them enough.

/just because you can, doesn't mean you should
//also just because you think everybody else does it, doesn't mean they do
 
2012-12-18 10:49:48 AM  
Oh give me a farking break.

GUNS. MINE. U CANT HAS.
 
2012-12-18 10:49:55 AM  

MethylTryp


Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.

Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.


Obviously I understand that. Now go look at what Itstoearly posted about $.30 being a good price for a round rather than the tax on a round.
 
2012-12-18 10:50:32 AM  

Stone Meadow: ktybear: The argument always made sense.

IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.


otherwise its just decoration
 
2012-12-18 10:50:52 AM  
Dimensio:]
You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.

Yes. Exactly! Now you're getting it!
 
2012-12-18 10:51:51 AM  

Private_Citizen: The 3D printers would only be used for the lower (the FFL part). All other parts could be ordered from Brownells or another parts supplier. There are plenty of guns that don't beat the lowers to death (ARs for example) and lots of handguns that already use plastic lowers. With a few stragegic pieces of metal in a nylon printed lower (for the guide rails, etc), you could make a pretty good, completely unregistered/unregulated glock/sigma/XD, etc.

That's why ammo control makes a bit more sense than gun control (to many guns out there, and easy to get/make more).


Yup the other thing is they're ideal for throw away guns. So something cracks/fails after 500 rounds? That's perfectly fine for getting through a driveby or shooting some other place us. You can just pick another one after that. Or if it cracks after 100 rounds, just bring three or four. They'll be cheap to print off. Hell you could just have a backpack full of them and never have to reload. Just drop the gun and grab the next one.

The criminal is planning on disposing of the gun anyway, you don't need Glock quality for a gun you'll use for one event.
 
2012-12-18 10:52:02 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: MethylTryp

Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.

Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.


Obviously I understand that. Now go look at what Itstoearly posted about $.30 being a good price for a round rather than the tax on a round.


Ah. That makes much more sense. For a second I thought maybe you were unclear on the concept. Apologies.
 
2012-12-18 10:52:56 AM  

Z-clipped: If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.


But you can't pick it up and carry it with you.

/or tuck it in your waistband gangsta style
 
2012-12-18 10:53:00 AM  
I saw that episode of CSI too.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:05 AM  

Z-clipped: incendi: There are printers that work with materials other than plastic.

If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.


Nah, they use the laser to sinter the powder. Also, some versions use a binder.

/Engineer who uses 3D printers all the time.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:28 AM  
Gun Control! Gun Control! Boy-howdy but the politicians are making big hay out of the Newtown massacre. Suddenly... Gun control!!!!

Isn't this like closing the barn door after the horses have got out?

The problems is that none of their brilliant plans are going to work. Something akin to Canada's Possession and Acquisition License program may help, but not much. We farked up long ago when we lifted the ban on civilians owning assault weapons. We can't put that genie back in the bottle. Bullets would be even harder to control than the guns that fire them. If someone wants to kill a lot of people, he will be able to get all the guns and bullets he needs, regardless of their legality.

I see no effective way to stop crazy.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:32 AM  
meanwhile, the rest of us will figure out that we can use lead slugging pieces to make ad-hoc bullets with our stockpiles of Mosin Nagants....you know, for when the inevitable fading of the trillions of 7.62x54r finally occurs 200 years from now.
 
2012-12-18 10:54:07 AM  

Biness: MythDragon: poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)

there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time


Big white onion must have looked pretty snappy.
 
2012-12-18 10:55:03 AM  

Biness: Stone Meadow: ktybear: The argument always made sense.

IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.

otherwise its just decoration


I should have said "ammunition" instead of bullets, of course, but yes...

MethylTryp: Dimensio:]
You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.

Yes. Exactly! Now you're getting it!


So, when do the calls to outlaw kitchen knives start? 22 Kids Slashed in China Elementary School Knife Attack
 
2012-12-18 10:55:20 AM  

Coolfusis: Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.

Also, bulletsaren't terribly difficult to make, nor is gunpowder. The primers could cause issue, reloading them is really, really dangerous.

This is not a problem we can just wave away with a simple amount of legislation. It's going to require a multi-step buyback of firearms, investment in mental health programs, regulation of magazines and ammunition, and probably some serious cultural changes (specifically the media) before tragedies like Sandy Hook stop happening. It will be long, hard and really goddamn expensive. It will be immensely unpopular - the left will say it's not good enough, the right will say it's too much, but it's the only real option.


Actually no, there's another option. We could do nothing and stop making these madmen in to celebrities. Overall violence has been trending down for a long time. In the heat of the moment emotion makes us lose perspective.
 
2012-12-18 10:55:23 AM  

MythDragon: How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


I'm going to make the case that the rise of the information age, the internet and 24 hours cable news especially, is what has changed in the last 10 years. Now the disturbed person who is angry at the world knows they can be famous and finally let everyone know how much they were hurting by sharing that hurt. What's more, they'll get the "satisfaction" of knowing that tens of millions of people all over the planet will feel that impact.

What's the solution? That I don't know. I would start by asking that news outlets voluntarily never reveal the name and picture of the perpetrator and focus all coverage on the victims and measures that should be taken in the future to prevent these types of things. If we eliminate the global forum we will hopefully reduce the incentive.
 
2012-12-18 10:55:50 AM  
FTFA : It doesn't say a single thing about the right to own bullets.

And the first amendment doesn't say anything about the internet, but if you argue "free speech laws do not apply on the internet" then you are an idiot.
 
2012-12-18 10:56:28 AM  
Nice weasel words from the author. Go ahead, people will just make their own bullets.
 
2012-12-18 10:56:31 AM  

MethylTryp


Ah. That makes much more sense. For a second I thought maybe you were unclear on the concept. Apologies.


No apologies needed! Stuff happens.
 
2012-12-18 10:56:54 AM  

Subtle_Canary: meanwhile, the rest of us will figure out that we can use lead slugging pieces to make ad-hoc bullets with our stockpiles of Mosin Nagants....you know, for when the inevitable fading of the trillions of 7.62x54r finally occurs 200 years from now.


I don't know, back before I came to my senses I used to have a SKS. I recall that during the beginnings of the 2nd Iraq war the cost for a bucket of 7.62 skyrocketed to levels that made going out and shooting illegally dumped washing machines and whatnot no longer worth it. Heard lots of grumblings in the local gun shops about it.
 
2012-12-18 10:58:44 AM  

JackieRabbit: Gun Control! Gun Control! Boy-howdy but the politicians are making big hay out of the Newtown massacre. Suddenly... Gun control!!!!

Isn't this like closing the barn door after the horses have got out?

The problems is that none of their brilliant plans are going to work. Something akin to Canada's Possession and Acquisition License program may help, but not much. We farked up long ago when we lifted the ban on civilians owning assault weapons. We can't put that genie back in the bottle. Bullets would be even harder to control than the guns that fire them. If someone wants to kill a lot of people, he will be able to get all the guns and bullets he needs, regardless of their legality.

I see no effective way to stop crazy.


This. I've spent a lot of time arguing for reasonable solutions that don't involve bans that would work. Instead, no one listens unless it involves a ban. So you know what? Screw reasonable. My guns are mine. I will own them, and use them as I choose within the framework of the law. I will resist any attempt to punish me for exercising a hobby, in the same way that bans on drugs are resisted and ignored.

Get back to me when you're willing to admit that a gun ban won't be as effective as legalized drugs and a huge revamp of our mental health care system in this country, as well as a change as to how our society sees guns in general, and the attitudes espoused by many.

Because, as I'm sure it's been said, if we had a more comprehensive way to deal with people who are clearly mentally defective, then we may not have the issue everyone's pissing their pannies over right now.
 
2012-12-18 10:59:12 AM  

Stone Meadow: Biness: Stone Meadow: ktybear: The argument always made sense.

IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.

otherwise its just decoration

I should have said "ammunition" instead of bullets, of course, but yes...

MethylTryp: Dimensio:]
You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.

Yes. Exactly! Now you're getting it!

So, when do the calls to outlaw kitchen knives start? 22 Kids Slashed in China Elementary School Knife Attack


Yeah it's a real bummer how all 22 of those kids died tragically.... oh wait.
 
2012-12-18 10:59:18 AM  
Gun control and regulation is not a practical answer to these problems. There are so many guns out there now it would be like trying to ban cell phones. Imagine if we had to regulate and control cell phones starting tomorrow, how many decades would it take before those controls started to show results? I'm going to guess if we tried it with guns it would be roughly 50 years before guns weren't easily obtainable any more.

Let's look for an actual effective solution that focuses on mental health, better school security, and less sensationalism of the perpetrator in the media.
 
2012-12-18 11:00:47 AM  

incendi: MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

There are printers that work with materials other than plastic. They're still a bit pricey, but how much does it cost to acquire a fully legal full-auto weapon?


Not cheap. $4-6000 for a piece of crap Sten. $15000 for a Steyr Aug (that costs the government and LEOs under $1000). And I think an original full auto Thompson goes for about $20,000. I've seen other other automatics for around $30,000. Then there is also the $200 tax stamp, and about 6 months of waiting for paperwork to clear. IF it gets approved.
 
2012-12-18 11:01:11 AM  

SomeoneDumb: pyrotek85: ...Arms is a broad term and includes not only the guns (or any personal weapon a soldier would be using) but also the things necessary for it, like ammunition...

And this is why we have people like you interpreting law and the constitution.


Except it's not me, the courts interpreted it that way. The 2A wouldn't make sense any other way either. Same with the 'well regulated' bit, regulated meaning well maintained, not lots of laws governing it as in 'regulations'.
 
2012-12-18 11:02:13 AM  

Stone Meadow: So, when do the calls to outlaw kitchen knives start? 22 Kids Slashed in China Elementary School Knife Attack


See that's the real rub, if we got rid of all the guns in America, we could reduce the lethality of these incidents. However lets keep in mind that the Colorado theater guy was into bomb making and we had that guy who went out on a bow hunting murder streak.

If we take the guns away it likely does reduce some of the killings in that it is harder. The crazy people without the ability to delay gratification will have the option of grabbing a TEC-9 and going nuts taken away from them. However the people with the ability to delay gratification and dedicate the effort to making a fertilizer bomb or the like are just going to find alternate means. For all we know, if the Lanzas don't own guns maybe crazy prepper mom is teaching her son how to do IEDs for the past 5 years and he blows the school up instead.

Trying to ban 30 round magazines or the like (of course all the pre ban ones will still be in play, accessible at gun shows, or you could just carry three ten round ones, a pair of 15 round ones, etc) is just treating the symptoms, not the cause. The gun ban will let you see fewer symptoms since it will be harder for the crazies to kill, but the root cause is still there.
 
2012-12-18 11:02:19 AM  
Also, as a point of order about strict gun control laws stopping mass murder...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting
 
2012-12-18 11:02:20 AM  

dennerman: Gun control and regulation is not a practical answer to these problems. There are so many guns out there now it would be like trying to ban cell phones. Imagine if we had to regulate and control cell phones starting tomorrow, how many decades would it take before those controls started to show results? I'm going to guess if we tried it with guns it would be roughly 50 years before guns weren't easily obtainable any more.

Let's look for an actual effective solution that focuses on mental health, better school security, and less sensationalism of the perpetrator in the media.


So it's not worth it that our children's children won't have to worry about this sort of thing? Because the solution isn't immediate it's not worth it? I'd prefer that when I'm 80 I'm not watching this sort of thing while shaking my fist at holographic Fox News.
 
2012-12-18 11:02:53 AM  
Not to threadjack (really), but I would laugh if Obama's proposal was to leave guns alone, but expand Obama care to include comprehensive mental health care. The sight of Tea Baggers embracing Obama care as an alternative to oppressive gun control would be luls worthy.
 
2012-12-18 11:03:01 AM  
From what I've learned from Sons of Anarchy, all you need to do is hire a mexican family to produce your bullets in their trailer!
 
2012-12-18 11:04:00 AM  

Private_Citizen: Not to threadjack (really), but I would laugh if Obama's proposal was to leave guns alone, but expand Obama care to include comprehensive mental health care. The sight of Tea Baggers embracing Obama care as an alternative to oppressive gun control would be luls worthy.


i don't agree with obama on just about anything, but I agree, this would be funny
 
2012-12-18 11:04:42 AM  

Private_Citizen: Not to threadjack (really), but I would laugh if Obama's proposal was to leave guns alone, but expand Obama care to include comprehensive mental health care. The sight of Tea Baggers embracing Obama care as an alternative to oppressive gun control would be luls worthy.


Really that's what needs to happen. The NRA seems to just want to go down in flames. While I'm all for opposing Feinstein's bill because it just a cosmetic, feel good legislation, the pro gun lobby needs to come back with ideas of their own about mental health and how it relates to gun regulation.
 
2012-12-18 11:05:22 AM  

Private_Citizen: Not to threadjack (really), but I would laugh if Obama's proposal was to leave guns alone, but expand Obama care to include comprehensive mental health care. The sight of Tea Baggers embracing Obama care as an alternative to oppressive gun control would be luls worthy.


I would actually consider this a reasonable compromise. As well as keeping guns away from anyone convicted of a DV, assault, battery or stalking charge.
 
2012-12-18 11:06:07 AM  

dennerman: Gun control and regulation is not a practical answer to these problems. There are so many guns out there now it would be like trying to ban cell phones. Imagine if we had to regulate and control cell phones starting tomorrow, how many decades would it take before those controls started to show results? I'm going to guess if we tried it with guns it would be roughly 50 years before guns weren't easily obtainable any more.

Let's look for an actual effective solution that focuses on mental health, better school security, and less sensationalism of the perpetrator in the media.


Cell phones? At 2 years there would be a huge decrease in the number cell phones in the hands of the irresponsible. Do you have any idea how often teenagers break their cell phones?
 
2012-12-18 11:07:28 AM  

ha-ha-guy: The real issue is that reloading is not a big thing right now given how cheaply you can get bulk ammo. Between the time to reload and that risks that stem from having a shiatload of gun powder sitting around in a cask, most people prefer just to buy bulk ammo even if it costs more.

If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

The general issue with expensive bullets is that guns are the most useful when the act of drawing and firing the weapon is muscle memory. It's why the military and police spend so much time on the range. It's also why self defense instructors tell people to practice. The gun is no good against the rapist if you just freeze up. By making bullets more expensive you reduce the range time and expertise of legit gun owners. You can do a lot of the initial training with a CO2 blowback gun that has the same weight and shape as your handgun, but at the end of the day you need to send real rounds down range to get used to the recoil.


The tax could be written to only apply to rounds that leave the range. You want to practice at the range, no tax.
 
2012-12-18 11:07:33 AM  

ha-ha-guy: Private_Citizen: Not to threadjack (really), but I would laugh if Obama's proposal was to leave guns alone, but expand Obama care to include comprehensive mental health care. The sight of Tea Baggers embracing Obama care as an alternative to oppressive gun control would be luls worthy.

Really that's what needs to happen. The NRA seems to just want to go down in flames. While I'm all for opposing Feinstein's bill because it just a cosmetic, feel good legislation, the pro gun lobby needs to come back with ideas of their own about mental health and how it relates to gun regulation.


I've been quite surprised by the NRA's lack of response to this. I assumed they'd have an action plan for the scenario. The real issue here is that America has alot of jails, alot of ERs, but not alot of mental health institutions. States used to maintain large asylums. I'm not advocating going back to the lock them all up and throw away the key model, but it did keep crazy people from killing people. Surely there is something that can be done.
 
2012-12-18 11:07:58 AM  

MethylTryp: Subtle_Canary: meanwhile, the rest of us will figure out that we can use lead slugging pieces to make ad-hoc bullets with our stockpiles of Mosin Nagants....you know, for when the inevitable fading of the trillions of 7.62x54r finally occurs 200 years from now.

I don't know, back before I came to my senses I used to have a SKS. I recall that during the beginnings of the 2nd Iraq war the cost for a bucket of 7.62 skyrocketed to levels that made going out and shooting illegally dumped washing machines and whatnot no longer worth it. Heard lots of grumblings in the local gun shops about it.


I think the cost of 7.62 soviet has more to do with China, one of the largest producers of the caliber, no longer being allowed to import their product. I basically got out of shooting 7.62 NATO because of the price over runs and diminished surplus market. Surplus is where its at.
 
2012-12-18 11:07:58 AM  

wantingout: why don't we just regulate SSRIs instead? They are the main factor in most of these mass shootings anyway.


THIS
 
2012-12-18 11:11:04 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly

MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.

30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.


I think his point is that there isn't much difference between a $6.00 bullet and $6.30 bullet, some higher caliber rounds are quite expensive as they are. Now a $.30 tax on a mostly non-lethal .22lr round would be insane.
 
2012-12-18 11:11:45 AM  

Z-clipped: You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.



t2.gstatic.com 

Impressed!
 
2012-12-18 11:11:54 AM  

Biness: I've been quite surprised by the NRA's lack of response to this. I assumed they'd have an action plan for the scenario. The real issue here is that America has alot of jails, alot of ERs, but not alot of mental health institutions. States used to maintain large asylums. I'm not advocating going back to the lock them all up and throw away the key model, but it did keep crazy people from killing people. Surely there is something that can be done.


Yup. The core of this comes down to mental health which it would be fair for the NRA to say "other groups need to handle". That being said I'd like to see the NRA pushing the idea that the industry needs more self regulation and more concern about mental health. Things like having the guys who run the stores and ranges get some training to potentially spot the crazies and alter the authorities or steer their crazy customers over to airsoft weapons, etc. After every one of these shootings you have guys form the range or gun store saying "Oh yeah I interacted with the shooter once, dude seemed off." The gun owning community needs to start taking peoples to actually do something when they see some dude cackling maniacally as he sends lead down range for hours at a time.
 
2012-12-18 11:12:51 AM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?


That would be someone who thinks the highly regulated ownership of guns in Switzerland is somehow justification for unregulated ownership of guns in the USA. Bill of Rights, check. But then, the Swiss case does not apply, because all of their guns are registered and regulated, or 'infringed' if you will.
 
2012-12-18 11:12:54 AM  

Subtle_Canary: MethylTryp: Subtle_Canary: meanwhile, the rest of us will figure out that we can use lead slugging pieces to make ad-hoc bullets with our stockpiles of Mosin Nagants....you know, for when the inevitable fading of the trillions of 7.62x54r finally occurs 200 years from now.

I don't know, back before I came to my senses I used to have a SKS. I recall that during the beginnings of the 2nd Iraq war the cost for a bucket of 7.62 skyrocketed to levels that made going out and shooting illegally dumped washing machines and whatnot no longer worth it. Heard lots of grumblings in the local gun shops about it.

I think the cost of 7.62 soviet has more to do with China, one of the largest producers of the caliber, no longer being allowed to import their product. I basically got out of shooting 7.62 NATO because of the price over runs and diminished surplus market. Surplus is where its at.


More a timeline thing than causation. All of my semi-auto rifles back then were Soviet or Chinese made, so all I had left was my shotgun and little .22 single-shot bolt-action plinker. Not nearly as fun.
 
2012-12-18 11:15:27 AM  
There was this show about the history of Israel, and before the close of wwII when Israel was not yet a country and under control of the UK, under a loud laundry machine, was a plant spitting out stens and 9mm ammo.

It can be done, but would require extensive equipment to stamp out those casings.
 
2012-12-18 11:15:53 AM  

Biness: verbaltoxin: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Writer doesn't understand what he's quoted.

"Well regulated," can be taken to mean, as Alexander Hamilton argued, and has been interpreted through both legislation and the courts to mean, "arm, train, equip and organize." "Keep and bear arms" was written in the time of the musket. It stands to reason the bullets were part of the equation.

Once again we come back to the "militia being necessary to the security of a free state," and those exist in the form of the Army and Air National Guard, with the separate militia being state defense services, like the Texas State Guard. It is not you and your whacker buddies, with your SUVs clad with ham radio call signs, Skywarn stickers and NRA slogans, with a bunch of surplus gear, playing army. In fact you and your buddies get in the way during real emergencies where real first responders are needed.

Anyway it's not a simple as taking the bullets away, when it can be argued they're a crucial part of bearing arms.

I've maintained that "right to keep and bear arms" wasn't written about muskets. It was written about guns in general. After the boston massacre one of the first things the British tried to do, to quell rebellion, was to attempt to confiscate guns and powder. Thus, the founding fathers knew the value of weaponry in fighting tyranny and maintaining freedom. Debate regulations, fine, but thats the historical context of the 2nd amendment.

source: Link


You're leaving out the part where in the 18th century, armies were commonly raised from men who kept trained on arms privately. When the country was founded and the Constitution being written, there was a strong opinion against having a regular army, and relying on raising troops from the militia. That quickly stopped being the case, for by the mid-19th century the US had a standing army, leaving the "well regulated milita" to be defined as the National Guard later.

By the way, this?

The National Guard cannot possibly be interpreted as the whole constitutional militia encompassed by the Second Amendment; if for no other reason, the fact that guardsmen are prohibited by law from keeping their own military arms. Instead, these firearms are owned and annually inventoried by the Federal government, and are kept in armories under lock and key.

Is wrong. Link

So if you want to be honest about historical context, you need to put all of it in there, not just the parts you like.
 
2012-12-18 11:15:57 AM  

dennerman: MythDragon: How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?

I'm going to make the case that the rise of the information age, the internet and 24 hours cable news especially, is what has changed in the last 10 years. Now the disturbed person who is angry at the world knows they can be famous and finally let everyone know how much they were hurting by sharing that hurt. What's more, they'll get the "satisfaction" of knowing that tens of millions of people all over the planet will feel that impact.

What's the solution? That I don't know. I would start by asking that news outlets voluntarily never reveal the name and picture of the perpetrator and focus all coverage on the victims and measures that should be taken in the future to prevent these types of things. If we eliminate the global forum we will hopefully reduce the incentive.


www.priorfatgirl.com
 
2012-12-18 11:17:01 AM  
poot_rootbeer

MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

Agreed
Kent State comes to mind.
 
2012-12-18 11:18:00 AM  

Enemabag Jones: There was this show about the history of Israel, and before the close of wwII when Israel was not yet a country and under control of the UK, under a loud laundry machine, was a plant spitting out stens and 9mm ammo.


upload.wikimedia.org
Approves.
 
2012-12-18 11:18:05 AM  

GlobalStrategic MapleSyrup Reserve: dennerman: MythDragon: How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?

I'm going to make the case that the rise of the information age, the internet and 24 hours cable news especially, is what has changed in the last 10 years. Now the disturbed person who is angry at the world knows they can be famous and finally let everyone know how much they were hurting by sharing that hurt. What's more, they'll get the "satisfaction" of knowing that tens of millions of people all over the planet will feel that impact.

What's the solution? That I don't know. I would start by asking that news outlets voluntarily never reveal the name and picture of the perpetrator and focus all coverage on the victims and measures that should be taken in the future to prevent these types of things. If we eliminate the global forum we will hopefully reduce the incentive.

[www.priorfatgirl.com image 300x449]


It's only happening in the USA and to white males, so I'm not sure it the draw of celebrity as the cause.
 
2012-12-18 11:20:15 AM  
So making guns (and/or ammunition) illegal or harder to obtain will stop gun violence? Maybe someone should also make heroin and meth illegal or harder to obtain too then...

Yup, that's what I thought...

Making weapons more difficult for the average citizen to own will not stop gun violence. Those that want to kill people will always find weapons, whether the government likes it or not.
 
2012-12-18 11:22:24 AM  
Gun Control Pussies have about as much sense as a bag of rocks.

Ban guns? Ban bullets? Bwa-hahahaha ... don't you understand about ten days later some wild ass engineering Grad-group at MIT or CalTech or even the backwoods of Arkansas will have created something far far superior to lead throwing projectile weapons?

It's evolution in action, dummies.
 
2012-12-18 11:23:57 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Gun Control Pussies have about as much sense as a bag of rocks.

Ban guns? Ban bullets? Bwa-hahahaha ... don't you understand about ten days later some wild ass engineering Grad-group at MIT or CalTech or even the backwoods of Arkansas will have created something far far superior to lead throwing projectile weapons?

It's evolution in action, dummies.


You're right. I guess dead kindergartners is the price we all pay for having the freedom to stockpile weaponry.

/See I can play this game too.
 
2012-12-18 11:25:13 AM  

Private_Citizen: Nah, they use the laser to sinter the powder. Also, some versions use a binder.

/Engineer who uses 3D printers all the time.


Umm... are sintered iron filings going to be strong enough to make firearm out of?
 
2012-12-18 11:26:47 AM  

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


Fascinatin' Retrospect:

pop-up-opening-window.
 
2012-12-18 11:28:18 AM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?


You keep that strawman next to the Christmas tree, they can keep each other company...
 
2012-12-18 11:29:08 AM  

Z-clipped: Private_Citizen: Nah, they use the laser to sinter the powder. Also, some versions use a binder.

/Engineer who uses 3D printers all the time.

Umm... are sintered iron filings going to be strong enough to make firearm out of?


A barrel? No. A lower for many modern guns? Certainly.
 
2012-12-18 11:33:43 AM  

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


Whitman was a long time ago, plus there was the McDonald's massacre in the 70's, the Luby's shootup, etc. Before that we either institutionalized or stuck 'em in the military.
 
2012-12-18 11:34:07 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.

We had two at my college, weird how things change. They're pretty cool devices.


And I'm sure you made a ball within a ball too.
Was cool, could print things that were damn near impossible to machine.
However our liquid became very brittle when finished.
 
2012-12-18 11:37:30 AM  
If printing the gun can be done, then the bullet and casing would be cake. Powder and the primer might be the only stumbling block. I'll bet there are plenty of substitutes for those.
 
2012-12-18 11:42:29 AM  

cig-mkr: Tat'dGreaser: cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.

We had two at my college, weird how things change. They're pretty cool devices.

And I'm sure you made a ball within a ball too.
Was cool, could print things that were damn near impossible to machine.
However our liquid became very brittle when finished.


Some of the early processes used very brittle material. But a modern machine/process like FDM from Stratasys is a whole different ballgame. I've printed power tool housings, pressed in motors and used them for extensive testing - without a failure. A cool demo at tradeshows is for them to print a large crescent wrench and let people turn a huge bolt with it.

I don't think manufacturers are ready to use it, but for a private use receiver, they would work fine.
 
2012-12-18 11:43:05 AM  

vpb: It works in other countries. Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland because military members keep their rifles at home. What they don't mention is that they are not allowed to keep ammunition. It isn't allowed to leave the range except for certain authorized units.


Not this shiat again. The army stopped providing ammunition but anyone an walk into a gun store and buy the *exact* same type of ammunition they use in their Army-issued weapons.
 
2012-12-18 11:43:23 AM  

Z-clipped: incendi: There are printers that work with materials other than plastic.

If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.


Do you know how I know you're not familiar with the term "printer"?
 
2012-12-18 11:45:54 AM  
First off, they aren't bullets, they are catridges or rounds of ammunition. A cartridge is made up of a case, projectile (or bullet), propellant, and a primer for setting the propellant charge off.

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it


What are you gonna shoot that from? That sounds like a recipe for a muzzleloader and a flintlock at that. Cap locks will still need caps to set them off. Regulating the sale of caps would have the same effect on your recipe and methods as the proposed control of the sale of ammunition as mentioned in the article.
Modern cartridge based firearms require a primer to set the charge off and they use smokeless propellant. The ingredients you describe sound like the makings for black powder. In a modern firearm, ESPECIALLY an AR-15 type where combustion gasses enter the firing chamber, Black powder would be a 3 to 5 shot between cleanings affair. And I mean full dissassembly cleaning too. Ar-15 have very strict powder requirements. It must burn incredibly clean or the residues will jam the action.

I know for a fact that you can get the ingredients you describe without much trouble however the inference that you could use them to supply yourself with ammunition for modern firearms is laughable.
 
2012-12-18 11:52:11 AM  

Private_Citizen: A barrel? No. A lower for many modern guns? Certainly.


Well, obviously. You can make the lower out of polymer too. My point was that 3D printing isn't a technology that's going to be capable of producing a complete firearm anytime soon, nor would it be worth the effort if it were. (That's why I specifically said "upper receiver"). A printer capable of slicing parts out of billet steel would be 100 times more dangerous than a handgun. 3D printing is neat, but it's not an efficient way to manufacture anything particularly durable, and it's probably not ever going to be.

Also, I was mostly just trying to make a Johnny Dangerously joke.
 
2012-12-18 11:53:49 AM  

IAMTHEINTARWEBS: I know for a fact that you can get the ingredients you describe without much trouble however the inference that you could use them to supply yourself with ammunition for modern firearms is laughable.


Someone will just design a semi auto that can make use of the older style goods available. Revolver action, pump action, lever action, recoil, etc.
 
2012-12-18 11:54:36 AM  
How about this: we make it so that you have to buy gun insurance. Premiums will be steep, as insurance companies are pretty good at calculating risk, so their formidable math will provide regulation of the possession and market. People with uninsured guns get the guns confiscated, and have to pay a crazy fine or go to jail. You would have to have an insurance sticker/tag on your gun to use it at a shooting range...
 
2012-12-18 11:55:51 AM  

GentDirkly: The tax could be written to only apply to rounds that leave the range. You want to practice at the range, no tax.


Certain ranges (perhaps the private ones) would get known for a lax attitude to tax free ammo leaving the range. So people would buy 500 rounds tax free, fire it 450, and leave with 50 in their pocket.
 
2012-12-18 11:56:57 AM  

CheekyMonkey: Do you know how I know you're not familiar with the term "printer"?


So... what, are you going to "print" a gun barrel out of layers of sheet metal? Come on.
 
2012-12-18 11:58:09 AM  

IAMTHEINTARWEBS: First off, they aren't bullets, they are catridges or rounds of ammunition. A cartridge is made up of a case, projectile (or bullet), propellant, and a primer for setting the propellant charge off.

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it

What are you gonna shoot that from? That sounds like a recipe for a muzzleloader and a flintlock at that. Cap locks will still need caps to set them off. Regulating the sale of caps would have the same effect on your recipe and methods as the proposed control of the sale of ammunition as mentioned in the article.
Modern cartridge based firearms require a primer to set the charge off and they use smokeless propellant. The ingredients you describe sound like the makings for black powder. In a modern firearm, ESPECIALLY an AR-15 type where combustion gasses enter the firing chamber, Black powder would be a 3 to 5 shot between cleanings affair. And I mean full dissassembly cleaning too. Ar-15 have very strict powder requirements. It must burn incredibly clean or the residues will jam the action.

I know for a fact that you can get the ingredients you describe without much trouble however the inference that you could use them to supply yourself with ammunition for modern firearms is laughable.


Myself? Of course not - I haven't handled a firearm in twenty years.

If your statement is that a sufficiently motivated individual would be incapable of figuring out how to produce ammunition, I would state that is the laughable proposal
 
2012-12-18 11:58:57 AM  

farkingnotworking: How about this: we make it so that you have to buy gun insurance. Premiums will be steep, as insurance companies are pretty good at calculating risk, so their formidable math will provide regulation of the possession and market. People with uninsured guns get the guns confiscated, and have to pay a crazy fine or go to jail. You would have to have an insurance sticker/tag on your gun to use it at a shooting range...


This does what to stop someone from 3-D printing a one time gun for illegal activity?
 
2012-12-18 12:02:33 PM  

Z-clipped: Private_Citizen: A barrel? No. A lower for many modern guns? Certainly.

Well, obviously. You can make the lower out of polymer too. My point was that 3D printing isn't a technology that's going to be capable of producing a complete firearm anytime soon, nor would it be worth the effort if it were. (That's why I specifically said "upper receiver"). A printer capable of slicing parts out of billet steel would be 100 times more dangerous than a handgun. 3D printing is neat, but it's not an efficient way to manufacture anything particularly durable, and it's probably not ever going to be.

Also, I was mostly just trying to make a Johnny Dangerously joke.


The lower is the only regulated part - the rest can be legally ordered over the internet and shipped to your house with no checks. So, all you need is the lower - which can be printed.

/don't touch my 88 magnum - it shoots through schools.
 
2012-12-18 12:02:39 PM  

MythDragon: educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)


Are there any other special exemptions you'd like to carve out before I point you to the easily-discoverable Wikipedia page listing them?
 
2012-12-18 12:04:57 PM  
If he's caught with the gun, he does more time and

ha-ha-guy: farkingnotworking: How about this: we make it so that you have to buy gun insurance. Premiums will be steep, as insurance companies are pretty good at calculating risk, so their formidable math will provide regulation of the possession and market. People with uninsured guns get the guns confiscated, and have to pay a crazy fine or go to jail. You would have to have an insurance sticker/tag on your gun to use it at a shooting range...

This does what to stop someone from 3-D printing a one time gun for illegal activity?


If he's caught with the gun, it adds to time, I suppose. Though I have to say this particular debate about 3D printing is a clearly red herring? It's a possibility, not a serious reality, and the article is clearly meant to freak people out (or provide a wet dream for the NRA fans) rather than encourage productive discussion.
 
2012-12-18 12:05:38 PM  
Dammit. Apologies for the extraneous question mark...
 
2012-12-18 12:06:36 PM  
If you want an illegally obtained gun I think most people could find one eventually. If you want bullets then it would probably take the same amount of effort. The conclusion is that there is currently no way to stop someone from shooting up a public place other than them getting themself caught before the act can be done. The only real way you'd slow it down or reverse it would be to stop making the shooters infamous and I don't see that happening either. To summarize, we're farked and there's nothing that will really be done that will have any effect on stopping future occurences.
 
2012-12-18 12:09:19 PM  
It's like weed, beer, and tobacco. Everyone talks about how easy it is to grow, or make, but the reality is, lazy people won't do it. How many people are going to get their own bullet making outfit?
My dad used to make his own shotgun shells when I was a kid. Buys them now.

$5,000 for a bullet. Think twice about using it.
 
2012-12-18 12:10:34 PM  

farkingnotworking: Dammit. Apologies for the extraneous question mark...


The issue I see, is your solution is a reactive one. As in "Hey you killed 20 kids and you don't have the insurance stamp! Well now you're doing 20 life sentences and 5 years for no stamp, instead of just 20 life sentences, we showed you!".

If you're going to add fees to gun ownership, I'd rather see them come in upfront to support more back ground and/or mental health checks. Perhaps also things like proving you have secure storage and the like.

/and if you make guns too expensive, the black market will just supply the criminal needs
//I could likely get my hands on heroin within 5 hours if I wanted and that stuff is illegal
 
2012-12-18 12:11:00 PM  

SuperDuper28: If you want an illegally obtained gun I think most people could find one eventually. If you want bullets then it would probably take the same amount of effort.


Yes, and that amount of effort is non-zero!

That will statistically lead to FEWER gun massacres, even if it never leads to ZERO gun massacres. I'd take that.
 
2012-12-18 12:12:44 PM  

stuffy: If printing the gun can be done, then the bullet and casing would be cake. Powder and the primer might be the only stumbling block. I'll bet there are plenty of substitutes for those.


Buy a case of those "bang snaps" from Spencer's, and you got your primers.

Mix any powdered oxidizer with any powdered fuel (carefully), and you got your powder charge.

Casings don't need to be multiple use, they just need to keep the powder from being rendered inert by contaminants like water. Only issue with 3D printed plastic casings is that they will probably melt and gum up the breech, but even a cheap powdered aluminum printer will work. Bullets, you could use just about anything at short range... anything heavy that won't fall apart before clearing the barrel at longer range.

/designed a full auto gun made of heat-hardened steel pipes and plastic 3D parts that isn't invisible to x-ray scanners, but does look to them like the contents of a toolbox my plumber carried, right down to a bolt assembly that looks exactly like the mechanism in a jerry-rigged vacuum plunger
//designed, mind you... never built
 
2012-12-18 12:14:19 PM  

MBP2112: Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?

You keep that strawman next to the Christmas tree, they can keep each other company...


I'm just looking for his definition of "gun nut." I don't have any guns in my home, but I think in his mind I might be one.
 
2012-12-18 12:17:18 PM  

stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets


Over in 3.
 
2012-12-18 12:18:36 PM  

Z-clipped: ell, obviously. You can make the lower out of polymer too. My point was that 3D printing isn't a technology that's going to be capable of producing a complete firearm anytime soon, nor would it be worth the effort if it were. (That's why I specifically said "upper receiver").


Soon. At a reasonable price point? That may take longer. The tech is there, getting better and cheaper as time goes on.
 
2012-12-18 12:21:02 PM  

Itstoearly: MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.

30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


Heck yeah it is! I wish I could get quality .308 rounds for that not to mention my .338 Lapua Magnum and .50BMG.
www.ar15.com
 
2012-12-18 12:27:23 PM  

Biness: MythDragon: poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)

there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time

http://blog.oup.com/2012/09/seven-myths-of-mass-murder/

I'm not sure how legit the study is but it does have a few examples of mas murder (bombings etc) and they hover around 20/year.
 
2012-12-18 12:30:34 PM  
If the dawn were red, would you rather be the mayor or a Wolverine?
 
2012-12-18 12:33:53 PM  

MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.

I know of some people that have reloaded the brass > 40 times and have heard of people reloading > 100 times. It depends on how tight the chamber is etc, if you neck size vs full length size, rifle vs pistol, Aneal the neck.... Semi rifles are usually around 3 and done. Bolts are usually 7-15 depending on quality of brass.
 
2012-12-18 12:35:53 PM  

Private_Citizen: The lower is the only regulated part - the rest can be legally ordered over the internet and shipped to your house with no checks.


The hypothetical being discussed here is, "If they couldn't be legally ordered over the internet, people could just 3D print them."
 
2012-12-18 12:37:29 PM  

mstang1988: MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
I know of some people that have reloaded the brass > 40 times and have heard of people reloading > 100 times. It depends on how tight the chamber is etc, if you neck size vs full length size, rifle vs pistol, Aneal the neck.... Semi rifles are usually around 3 and done. Bolts are usually 7-15 depending on quality of brass.


My father in law was in the Viet Minh and started out as an 8 year old kid that reloaded for the various bolt actions they had before moving up to guerilla fighter. He told me ~35 to 40 times before the failure rate become problematic. Of course after the 15 you cited, there was definitely an uptick with the ammo failing.

Of course if you can run a resistance in Vietnam based on uneducated 8 year olds doing your ammo reloads for you, odds are in America you can set up a machine shop and crank that shiat out with new brass as needed.
 
2012-12-18 12:42:53 PM  

redmid17: vpb: It works in other countries. Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland because military members keep their rifles at home. What they don't mention is that they are not allowed to keep ammunition. It isn't allowed to leave the range except for certain authorized units.

Not this shiat again. The army stopped providing ammunition but anyone an walk into a gun store and buy the *exact* same type of ammunition they use in their Army-issued weapons.


I just looked it up. The one and only place a citizen can buy ammunition in Switzerland is at a state sponsored firing range. The ammunition is bought from the government and it must be used on the range. All ammo is accounted for.

Prior to 2007, Swiss militiamen were issued 50 rounds of ammunition, which was in a sealed container and was regularly audited to insure there was no unauthorized use. The intent of the ammunition was for use while traveling to their army barracks in the event of an invasion. In 2007, they changed the law and militiamen were no longer issued ammunition. All previously issued ammunition had to be returned and accounted for.

Licensed gun shops in Switzerland are allowed to sell black powder for use in historical weapons, but not cartridges. Recreational shooting is encouraged by the government, especially for children and militiamen, but it is strictly controlled. The only people allowed to cary a gun on their person in public are those who work in professions that necessitates the practice. Carrying permits are issued only for a specific gun and are valid for five years. Guns may only be transported to certain events, such as hunting, to a military barracks, and gun shows. The weapon must be unloaded and any ammunition (for those 2000 militiamen still authorized to posses ammunition) must be transported separately from the weapon.

There are many more regulations that both encourage and control gun ownership and use. The 2010 death rate caused by guns in Switzerland is 0.52 per 100K. Compare this to the US: 2.98 per 100K, which is really not that bad. Gun control can work, but it would take decades for a country like the US to institute Switzerland's model here. And it is never going to happen anyway. The opposition would be enormous.
 
2012-12-18 12:43:33 PM  

mstang1988: MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
I know of some people that have reloaded the brass > 40 times and have heard of people reloading > 100 times. It depends on how tight the chamber is etc, if you neck size vs full length size, rifle vs pistol, Aneal the neck.... Semi rifles are usually around 3 and done. Bolts are usually 7-15 depending on quality of brass.


So a somewhat longer resolution, then. All the rebuilt ammo I ever bought was absolute shiat. I'd be lucky to get four or five out before it either jammed or misfired.
 
2012-12-18 12:43:56 PM  

rrife: Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly

MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.

30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.

I think his point is that there isn't much difference between a $6.00 bullet and $6.30 bullet, some higher caliber rounds are quite expensive as they are. Now a $.30 tax on a mostly non-lethal .22lr round would be insane.

I don't have a citation but I believe I read .22lr kills more often then any other caliber in the US. They are lethal to a longer distance then you would want to believe, just less effective for instant knockdown. VT shooter used a P22 as one of his and the FiveSeven the Killen guy used isn't much more then a .22 magnum.
 
2012-12-18 12:44:51 PM  

MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.


Sure they can. You may need to measure the over all length and trim the case if it has stretched too long but resizing and trimming cases is part of the reloading process. Cases that start with thick walls can be reloaded many times.
 
2012-12-18 12:46:02 PM  

JackieRabbit: redmid17: vpb: It works in other countries. Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland because military members keep their rifles at home. What they don't mention is that they are not allowed to keep ammunition. It isn't allowed to leave the range except for certain authorized units.

Not this shiat again. The army stopped providing ammunition but anyone an walk into a gun store and buy the *exact* same type of ammunition they use in their Army-issued weapons.

I just looked it up. The one and only place a citizen can buy ammunition in Switzerland is at a state sponsored firing range. The ammunition is bought from the government and it must be used on the range. All ammo is accounted for.

Prior to 2007, Swiss militiamen were issued 50 rounds of ammunition, which was in a sealed container and was regularly audited to insure there was no unauthorized use. The intent of the ammunition was for use while traveling to their army barracks in the event of an invasion. In 2007, they changed the law and militiamen were no longer issued ammunition. All previously issued ammunition had to be returned and accounted for.


Where do you think the Swiss buy their ammo for hunting?
 
2012-12-18 12:46:08 PM  

mstang1988: I don't have a citation but I believe I read .22lr kills more often then any other caliber in the US. They are lethal to a longer distance then you would want to believe, just less effective for instant knockdown. VT shooter used a P22 as one of his and the FiveSeven the Killen guy used isn't much more then a .22 magnum.


And more likely to have safety rules disregarded. It's just a .22, feels like a damn toy... until one goes through your buddy's eyeball.
 
2012-12-18 12:53:11 PM  
If someone can 3d print a gun, won't they just 3d print the bullets too?

/Deep thoughts...
 
2012-12-18 12:59:55 PM  

MethylTryp: mstang1988: MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
I know of some people that have reloaded the brass > 40 times and have heard of people reloading > 100 times. It depends on how tight the chamber is etc, if you neck size vs full length size, rifle vs pistol, Aneal the neck.... Semi rifles are usually around 3 and done. Bolts are usually 7-15 depending on quality of brass.

So a somewhat longer resolution, then. All the rebuilt ammo I ever bought was absolute shiat. I'd be lucky to get four or five out before it either jammed or misfired.


Yes, a very long term resolution and really, what does it solve? It only takes a few hundred rounds fired once. There is so much brass and ammo available it's crazy. I bet the availability really skyrockets once we pull out of the middle east (Think of all the manufactures that will be forced to flood the market with overruns to keep their facilities busy). I'm an avid shooter and shoot a few larger rifle calibers. Reloading is a must and reloading something correctly with huge charges is a must!
 
2012-12-18 01:03:08 PM  

ha-ha-guy: mstang1988: MethylTryp: A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
I know of some people that have reloaded the brass > 40 times and have heard of people reloading > 100 times. It depends on how tight the chamber is etc, if you neck size vs full length size, rifle vs pistol, Aneal the neck.... Semi rifles are usually around 3 and done. Bolts are usually 7-15 depending on quality of brass.

My father in law was in the Viet Minh and started out as an 8 year old kid that reloaded for the various bolt actions they had before moving up to guerilla fighter. He told me ~35 to 40 times before the failure rate become problematic. Of course after the 15 you cited, there was definitely an uptick with the ammo failing.

Of course if you can run a resistance in Vietnam based on uneducated 8 year olds doing your ammo reloads for you, odds are in America you can set up a machine shop and crank that shiat out with new brass as needed.


I would be curious as to how light of a charge they are running and what calibers. On federal brass in .308 I hear the primer pockets start weakening around 5 rounds and need to be disposed of and most large rifle brass is stressed and doesn't last that long at a full charge (trying to get the highest velocities with accuracy and no signs of pressure). I guess you can go to the extreme when you don't care about your soldiers lives though so 35-40 is not without question. I would also like to see somebody physically collect the brass in war, I don't think that really happens.
 
2012-12-18 01:04:00 PM  

way south: If someone can 3d print a gun, won't they just 3d print the bullets too?

/Deep thoughts...


Not primer and smokeless powders.
 
2012-12-18 01:04:04 PM  

poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)

Are there any other special exemptions you'd like to carve out before I point you to the easily-discoverable Wikipedia page listing them?


Government sanctioned murders don't count either. (Kent State)
Lets, see...Also shootings done by cops.
Oh, and anything done in the name of Jesus. That too.
 
2012-12-18 01:09:09 PM  

Private_Citizen: cig-mkr: Tat'dGreaser: cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.

We had two at my college, weird how things change. They're pretty cool devices.

And I'm sure you made a ball within a ball too.
Was cool, could print things that were damn near impossible to machine.
However our liquid became very brittle when finished.

Some of the early processes used very brittle material. But a modern machine/process like FDM from Stratasys is a whole different ballgame. I've printed power tool housings, pressed in motors and used them for extensive testing - without a failure. A cool demo at tradeshows is for them to print a large crescent wrench and let people turn a huge bolt with it.

I don't think manufacturers are ready to use it, but for a private use receiver, they would work fine.


Been out of the trade now for 10 years now, I'm sure things have changed drastically. I was sure they would have had a metal based formula by now.
 
2012-12-18 01:33:58 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Wait... Do the anti-2nd amendment folks actually think you can just print out a firearm?


Anti/pro 2d amendment is irrelevant...in a few years, or less, you WILL be able to print out a firearm; probably not high end, but lethal enough to shoot up a mall, for instance.

Price has dropped on 3D printers about 2/3 in just a couple years, and quality has gone up.
 
2012-12-18 01:35:50 PM  

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.


Good thing it's impossible to wrap reinforcing wire around a plastic tube...
 
2012-12-18 01:36:38 PM  

mstang1988: I would also like to see somebody physically collect the brass in war, I don't think that really happens.


Keep in mind it was guerrilla actions against the French and Japanese, so no fixed lines. The day after the fire fight, the kids would go out, scamper around, and police up whatever brass they could. Kind of like collecting golf balls from the water hazard.

/prior to the Soviets starting to ship large amounts of aid they had 1 gun per 5 people, so yeah losing people was not a big deal
//some units went into battle with spears because that was what they had
 
2012-12-18 01:39:01 PM  

DeathCipris: Wow...just wow...
You can't manufacturer an entire firearm with a 3d printer.


And two years ago, the average homeowner couldn't even manufacture PART of one.

Your assumption seems to be that this technology has reached its apex...which I think is flawed.

The time to think about this is now, not after every house has a 3D milling machine that costs less than a good coffee grinder...

/yes, I'm exaggerating for effect
//the question is, how much?
 
2012-12-18 01:41:26 PM  

A Shambling Mound: Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...

I am aware of prototyping machines that can work titanium. They are readily available if you'd like to trade your house for one. I mean, assuming your house is worth enough.

As for steel, I'm pretty sure all the 3d printing applications that use the material are a mixture of stainless steel and bronze. Even then the produced components wouldn't hold up if used in a firearm. It's stronger than the polymers used in typical 3d printing but you could still destroy the resulting object with your bare hands.


For now.

Good thing we're not making any advances in polymer science at this time.
 
2012-12-18 01:42:44 PM  

cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.


What's new is I can buy that formerly hush-hush machine for $800. And use it to print out MORE 3D printers.

Which is kinda cool, actually.
 
2012-12-18 02:01:17 PM  
So when we have removed all firearms and ammunition from society, we can all sit around and read poetry and discuss butterfly collecting.

//I'd rather paper cut my throat.

The real argument is that the anti gun folks won't quit until all scary guns are gone by offering one common sense regulation after another and the pro gun folks see through this scam. While there are a vast number of people somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, they don't seem to make policy or have the power to beat to death the lunatic fringes.

///lude///
 
2012-12-18 03:00:53 PM  
Every time there's a shooting these same plans get floated around. Now don't get me wrong, I think it would be cool to see what happened if you taxed ammo at $1 a round or whatever. You'd see about ten years worth of R&D on caseless ammo happen in 6 months, and some wicked cool weapons that could hold maybe a thousand rounds and still be shoulder fired.

But let's get back to reality. Ammo restrictions won't work. You'll have better luck minting trillion dollar coins to fix the deficit.

The workable solution is accountability. Rough idea - grade each weapon from 1 to 10, with a bolt action low caliber rifle being somewhere around a 2, and a belt-fed 50cal Browning being a 10. Semiauto carbines maybe a 7. Make laws according to those levels. Anything 3 and above has to be registered and tracked by the government. With anything 6 or above, the registered owner has to have the weapon locked up or in sight at all times. No exceptions. Your brother gains access to your AR15, you go to jail. Mental health evaluations start at 3. At 8 you need a note from a psychologist. You get the idea.

We already do this partially. You can't get a full auto without a FFL. Just make it a spectrum so that everyone is happy. It'll be a lot easier to get a note from your doctor and do some paperwork than it will be to print an AR15 lower receiver. No more wharrgarble over what is an assault weapon and what isn't. Each weapon gets it's own rating.
 
2012-12-18 03:00:58 PM  
So, any word on whether or not the law would consider these "home made guns".

Because those are still totally legal, and don't seem to be in danger of being illegal any time soon.

Also, Fark, we have to talk.

img201.imageshack.us

You're slacking.
 
2012-12-18 03:13:12 PM  
black powder revolvers that run on children's caps.
 
2012-12-18 03:17:32 PM  
Mmmm they can figure out how to print a fully functional gun.

But could never ever figure out how to print the bullets.. No siree that's just too damn hard
 
2012-12-18 03:25:21 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...

3D-printed metal parts have different structural properties than those that are cast from molten metal, or stamped or milled from solid metals.


Or to put it another way, you'll be creating a hand grenade that will take off the users hand.
 
2012-12-18 03:42:21 PM  
I Haven't seen anyone come up with a justification for owning assault rifles or automatic weapons.

Most people outside the US would see a good starting point for a definition of "mentally ill" being anyone who thinks guns that can fire 100's of rounds in minutes is fine.

How about an experiment?

If it is impossible to get some people to give up their guns, why not isolate them?

Instead of Jesusland, set up Crazyland - tell all the gun nuts, evo- and climate-change deniers, anti-vaccs and no-Medicare believers that they can live there. (rural Kentucky etc etc)

Everywhere else start restricting guns. You'd soon get data to tell which place was better or safer to live in.
 
2012-12-18 03:44:43 PM  

mjjt: Most people outside the US would see a good starting point for a definition of "mentally ill" being anyone who thinks guns that can fire 100's of rounds in minutes is fine.


Go sit in a corner and be a good little biatch until the FBI needs to perform illegal raids in your country again.
 
2012-12-18 03:53:14 PM  

jgilb: It's only happening in the USA and to white males, so I'm not sure it the draw of celebrity as the cause.


Here's the not-very-white Beltway sniper:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-18 05:11:21 PM  

Triumph: vpb: Gun nuts like to point at Switzerland

What's your definition of a "gun nut?" Someone who believes in the Bill of Rights?


I don't know about anyone else, but anyone so worked up about their right to own a device designed to be lethal that they pull the "B-b-but Switzerland!" argument like some kind who's whining that mom insisted - INSISTED - that he's allowed to stay up late.
 
2012-12-18 05:12:24 PM  

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it


Then you will be all set for your black powder weapons. Have fun back there in 1880.
 
2012-12-18 05:18:48 PM  
Also, the 2nd amendment is pretty antiquated. Yeah, you keep your gun locker(s) that, ultimately, just frightens off the neighbors and the kids who no longer go on your lawn. The Big Scary Tyrant the founding fathers were defending against now has remote-controlled drones that can be launched over a morning cup of coffee and be done with you before the Secretary of Defence finishes the crossword puzzle in the paper.

/ Not as anti-gun as I'm coming off, probably
// Just bewildered that ammunition can be obtained more easily than Sudafed.
 
2012-12-18 06:02:23 PM  

xsarien: // Just bewildered that ammunition can be obtained more easily than Sudafed.


And is yet surprisingly less useful in the manufacture of Meth.
 
2012-12-18 06:25:11 PM  
What we need is not "gun control" or "bullet control", but "crazy people control".

Weapons aren't the issue here. The issue is a lack of civility in society.
 
2012-12-18 08:18:22 PM  

stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it


You can extract saltpeter from the ground or chicken poo. Sulfur is the hard part, you can precipitate it from car batteries if you know how.
 
2012-12-19 02:35:40 AM  
If I'm going to shoot 20 kids then myself, why the fark woudl i care about how much the ammo costs? Of course high ammo costs makes sense, if you are a farking retard.
 
2012-12-19 11:56:49 AM  
Frostie1


Smartest
Funniest

2012-12-18 10:26:19 AM

Why is the answer always more and bigger government....Maybe we should start in the home...Where DAD should be!!!

****************************************

Dad would be there if corporations paid better wages to the workers but these days dad has to work OT or even a second job just to make ends meet. Also mom is in the workplace more today than any other time in the history of this country so kids are left to their own devices more times than not. All this so Mr. Executive can draw his obscene bonuses for little or no work on his part. All this aside, the issue remains, we do not need assault weapons on the streets. If you think you need one for hunting, lets face it, if you need more than 2 rounds to bring down your prey maybe hunting really isn't for you.
 
2012-12-19 12:45:30 PM  

SkunkWerks: xsarien: // Just bewildered that ammunition can be obtained more easily than Sudafed.

And is yet surprisingly less useful in the manufacture of Meth.


Yeah, well, if a few jerks in a Airstream in the middle of a field can ruin it for people with bad allergies, a few psychos with an axe to grind against society should ruin it for law-abiding gun enthusiasts.
 
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