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(The Atlantic)   In a world of 3-D-printed guns, Chris Rock's "bullet control" makes more sense   (theatlantic.com) divider line 208
    More: Unlikely, shooting sprees, guns  
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9553 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2012 at 10:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-18 10:32:50 AM
Meh.
Black Market weapons imported from foreign countries will work just fine.
 
2012-12-18 10:33:08 AM

MythDragon: Um, sure you can 3D print a lower reciever, but you can't really do that with the upper part (That's the part the bullets come out of for those that don't know). Well, technically you can. It's possible to craft a fully plastic gun that will fire. Once. You may not enjoy having a palm full of plastic shrapnel though.

How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


This is the real issue, and the one for which I have no answers. Breakdown of the family, increased medication of kids, tv/video game addictions, people unwilling to call crazy people crazy.

no idea. but, maybe some of those things
 
2012-12-18 10:33:42 AM

Psycoholic_Slag: Meh.
Black Market weapons imported from foreign countries will work just fine.


That would be kind of funny if we legalized weed and banned guns so Mexico just ends up importing weapons to keep up some sort of illegal trade
 
2012-12-18 10:33:45 AM

Itstoearly


MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.

30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.
 
2012-12-18 10:34:25 AM

MethylTryp: Tax the shiat out of it, like cigarettes. $.30/round. Put that money towards these mental health programs that all the gun people think will magically solve our gun violence problems.


Then all we have to do is get the criminals to buy their ammo legally. Just like every other gun control scheme, it only stops the people who obey the laws.

Last I checked, shooting up a school is illegal. But, oh, maybe he would have been stopped by a possession charge, is that it? Seriously?
 
2012-12-18 10:34:28 AM

johnnyrocket: The pro-gun crowd has argued themselves into a corner. If their argument is everyone have a gun, then every 6 year old needs a gun. If their argument is less gun control, then everyone should be able to buy bazookas. If their argument is more criminal prosecution, then every slightly weird person should be what? Locked up?

The jig is up, there's too many guns, too many powerful guns, too much gun worship and fetishes. Time to come down hard on these 100 round automatic killing machines.

They serve no purpose but to mass kill.


3/10

/had me until "100 round automatic killing machines"
 
2012-12-18 10:34:44 AM

poot_rootbeer: Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...

3D-printed metal parts have different structural properties than those that are cast from molten metal, or stamped or milled from solid metals.


Yeah but you can mass produce all the low stress parts of the gun via printer and then just handmake (or rig up some ad hoc machine shop to stamp) a few key parts out. The threat is not a fully assembled and auto M-4 coming out of the printer, but rather that now one dude with a printer and a basement full of machine tools can make a few dozen guns a day, whereas in the past it might have taken a week to spit them out.

Also for guns subject to lower stresses, you can likely print the whole thing. A .22 or whatever will work just fine with printed metal I bet.

/plus the lower is the legally controlled part, so in theory you could buy everything else legally in bulk and just have a machine spitting out lowers
 
2012-12-18 10:34:47 AM
Hard casting bullets is trivial. Making modern fmj, jhp, etc is not.

Making cases is well beyond the home reloader, as is making primers (fulminated mercury). As for using black powder, all modern guns are designed for stuff like nitrocellulose - black powder would foul a modern gun quickly (gas impingement systems like an AR probably wouldn't make it through a single magazine.)

In short, I think an ammo tax probably would reduce shootings. Certainly people would work harder to secure their valuable ammunition. It wouldn't affect hunters, but it would probably end target shooting except for the very wealthy. Crime in urban centers would probably nosedive. Hard to shoot if you can't afford ammo.
 
2012-12-18 10:34:57 AM
bullets / guns are not so much the issue IMHO as is guns/arms that shoot a shiatload of rounds in a tiny space of time. that's where things get dicey right quick. it's like power guzzling a 1/4 keg instead of a 12 oz can. ridiculous.

if a concern is squelching madmen who have snapped a good start may be to do like a Farker told us they do in some Asian countries. stop having one P.D. in one town housing a large crew of donut munchers. station your crew in small posts all over town.

i live in a tiny town with a huge amount of well paid law enforcement. heavy on the mini vans, SUVs, soccer moms & school kids. i really doubt tax payers would object to having a uniform that circulates from school to school on a secret schedule.
 
2012-12-18 10:35:18 AM

MythDragon: poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)


there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time
 
2012-12-18 10:35:31 AM
Wow...just wow...
You can't manufacturer an entire firearm with a 3d printer. The barrel, bolt/slide assembly, receiver, etc. must be made of metal or your cool gun is going to fall apart the first time you use it and the bullet won't have enough power to penetrate a piece of paper.
Manufacturing a machine gun is still illegal on the Federal level without the proper licensing (because being illegal never stopped anyone before, right?)
So all of these anti-gun-omg-please-think-of-the-children types can calm the fark down.
 
2012-12-18 10:35:43 AM

Kit Fister: Except they make 3d printers that will print in steel or titanium...


I am aware of prototyping machines that can work titanium. They are readily available if you'd like to trade your house for one. I mean, assuming your house is worth enough.

As for steel, I'm pretty sure all the 3d printing applications that use the material are a mixture of stainless steel and bronze. Even then the produced components wouldn't hold up if used in a firearm. It's stronger than the polymers used in typical 3d printing but you could still destroy the resulting object with your bare hands.

You'd be better off simply beating people to death some part from the printer itself.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:29 AM

elmixtli: stratagos: vpb: stratagos: Because it of course is impossible to make your own bullets

Pretty much. Even re-loaders need supplies.

I'm willing to bet I can get lead, saltpeter, sulfer and charcoal if I set my mind to it

Who do you think your are?

[subspacecomms.com image 618x370]


We are the Metrons.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:35 AM

Biness: there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time


Guy had a tumor in his head that made him crazy.
 
2012-12-18 10:36:58 AM

ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.


That's illegal without a federal firearms license.
 
2012-12-18 10:37:14 AM
Itstoearly
30 cents/round is pretty cheap for some of the larger calibers.


You're right. Do it a la NY. 75% federal tax on the sale price of bullets charged directly to the sellers/distributors.
 
2012-12-18 10:38:22 AM
3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.
 
2012-12-18 10:38:46 AM

aevert: ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

That's illegal without a federal firearms license.


And you think the preppers will care? Drive out to some dude's farm, cash on the barrel, leave with ammo.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:18 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.


Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:22 AM

cig-mkr: 3-D printing isn't new by any means, we used to call it "stereolithography" in the early 90's.
Worked in a prototype NASA related machine shop that had one.
hush hush, top secret.


We had two at my college, weird how things change. They're pretty cool devices.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:53 AM
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Writer doesn't understand what he's quoted.

"Well regulated," can be taken to mean, as Alexander Hamilton argued, and has been interpreted through both legislation and the courts to mean, "arm, train, equip and organize." "Keep and bear arms" was written in the time of the musket. It stands to reason the bullets were part of the equation.

Once again we come back to the "militia being necessary to the security of a free state," and those exist in the form of the Army and Air National Guard, with the separate militia being state defense services, like the Texas State Guard. It is not you and your whacker buddies, with your SUVs clad with ham radio call signs, Skywarn stickers and NRA slogans, with a bunch of surplus gear, playing army. In fact you and your buddies get in the way during real emergencies where real first responders are needed.

Anyway it's not a simple as taking the bullets away, when it can be argued they're a crucial part of bearing arms.
 
2012-12-18 10:39:56 AM

aevert: ha-ha-guy: If you make bullets harder to get, more people will get into reloading and we'll have a whole cottage industry of selling reloads.

That's illegal without a federal firearms license.


Well THAT has always stopped people from making a buck or two.
 
2012-12-18 10:42:49 AM
Perhaps the best argument in favor of limiting ammunition, though, is this. The mantra of firearms advocates is the Second Amendment to the Constitution, which reads:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It doesn't say a single thing about the right to own bullets. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, bullets were largely inert slugs, loaded into flint-lock muskets propelled with loose gunpowder packed into the muzzle. There was no need to assure the right to ammunition, which may be the loophole the government needs to dramatically curtail the scourge of gun violence.


Any competent lawyer would get this bullshiat thrown out in a court in 5 minutes as attempting to subvert the 2nd Amendment.

Now...in NYC today, assuming I know the right guy, I can get my hands very easily on a cheap pack of Marlborough Lights. Not imitations, the real thing. How? Simple. The black market.

So you want to make it so that ammunition is grossly expensive. Let's say you can even get enough Liberal judges to buy off on that and it passes Constitutional muster, which of course it won't. How soon before the black market becomes the place to buy ammo and we create a whole new crop of gangsters who get rich? A New York Minute, that's how long.

/Drew, I love you man but find whoever greenlit this bovine scatology and give them some wall-to-wall remedial training
 
2012-12-18 10:44:49 AM

hdhale: Any competent lawyer would get this bullshiat thrown out in a court in 5 minutes as attempting to subvert the 2nd Amendment.


A competent lawyer would ride it for three or four years worth of legal challenges and make bank along every step of the way.
 
2012-12-18 10:44:56 AM
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Just so we know what we are, and are not, arguing about.
 
2012-12-18 10:45:43 AM

Private_Citizen: primers (fulminated mercury)


Fulminated mercury hasn't been used for primers in decades. It's usually lead styphnate these days, and there some which are heavy-metal free.
 
2012-12-18 10:45:48 AM
Why can't you use the 3D printer to print rounds, subby?
 
2012-12-18 10:45:52 AM
A lot of the black market relies on the importation of cigarettes from states without the ridiculous taxes. If the tax is a federal tax, not just state, that black market becomes much harder to create.

Also as I understand it rebuilt rounds can't really be rebuilt a second time. Seems like a temporary problem.
 
2012-12-18 10:46:17 AM

verbaltoxin: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Writer doesn't understand what he's quoted.

"Well regulated," can be taken to mean, as Alexander Hamilton argued, and has been interpreted through both legislation and the courts to mean, "arm, train, equip and organize." "Keep and bear arms" was written in the time of the musket. It stands to reason the bullets were part of the equation.

Once again we come back to the "militia being necessary to the security of a free state," and those exist in the form of the Army and Air National Guard, with the separate militia being state defense services, like the Texas State Guard. It is not you and your whacker buddies, with your SUVs clad with ham radio call signs, Skywarn stickers and NRA slogans, with a bunch of surplus gear, playing army. In fact you and your buddies get in the way during real emergencies where real first responders are needed.

Anyway it's not a simple as taking the bullets away, when it can be argued they're a crucial part of bearing arms.


I've maintained that "right to keep and bear arms" wasn't written about muskets. It was written about guns in general. After the boston massacre one of the first things the British tried to do, to quell rebellion, was to attempt to confiscate guns and powder. Thus, the founding fathers knew the value of weaponry in fighting tyranny and maintaining freedom. Debate regulations, fine, but thats the historical context of the 2nd amendment.

source: Link
 
2012-12-18 10:46:32 AM
The 3D printers would only be used for the lower (the FFL part). All other parts could be ordered from Brownells or another parts supplier. There are plenty of guns that don't beat the lowers to death (ARs for example) and lots of handguns that already use plastic lowers. With a few stragegic pieces of metal in a nylon printed lower (for the guide rails, etc), you could make a pretty good, completely unregistered/unregulated glock/sigma/XD, etc.

That's why ammo control makes a bit more sense than gun control (to many guns out there, and easy to get/make more).
 
2012-12-18 10:47:58 AM

Private_Citizen: Hard casting bullets is trivial. Making modern fmj, jhp, etc is not.

Making cases is well beyond the home reloader, as is making primers (fulminated mercury). As for using black powder, all modern guns are designed for stuff like nitrocellulose - black powder would foul a modern gun quickly (gas impingement systems like an AR probably wouldn't make it through a single magazine.)

In short, I think an ammo tax probably would reduce shootings. Certainly people would work harder to secure their valuable ammunition. It wouldn't affect hunters, but it would probably end target shooting except for the very wealthy. Crime in urban centers would probably nosedive. Hard to shoot if you can't afford ammo.


You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.
 
2012-12-18 10:48:42 AM

johnnyrocket: The pro-gun crowd has argued themselves into a corner. If their argument is everyone have a gun, then every 6 year old needs a gun. If their argument is less gun control, then everyone should be able to buy bazookas. If their argument is more criminal prosecution, then every slightly weird person should be what? Locked up?

The jig is up, there's too many guns, too many powerful guns, too much gun worship and fetishes. Time to come down hard on these 100 round automatic killing machines.

They serve no purpose but to mass kill.


I hope you're trolling
 
2012-12-18 10:48:50 AM

ktybear: The argument always made sense.


IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.
 
2012-12-18 10:48:57 AM

incendi: There are printers that work with materials other than plastic.


If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.
 
2012-12-18 10:49:48 AM

Biness: This is the real issue, and the one for which I have no answers. Breakdown of the family, increased medication of kids, tv/video game addictions, people unwilling to call crazy people crazy.no idea. but, maybe some of those things


Intentional efforts to delegitimize the justice system by redefining criminals into "victims of society" and their victims into "criminally stupid people who are to blame for their own suffering."

We always had reasonable gun control, just like we always had reasonable restrictions on free speech. The difference is we now have a growing segment of the population that feels it's entitled to manipulate every non-physical aspect of civilization to get what they want without giving up anything in return, and if doing so destroys the civilization, well that's just everybody else's fault for not respecting them enough.

/just because you can, doesn't mean you should
//also just because you think everybody else does it, doesn't mean they do
 
2012-12-18 10:49:48 AM
Oh give me a farking break.

GUNS. MINE. U CANT HAS.
 
2012-12-18 10:49:55 AM

MethylTryp


Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.

Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.


Obviously I understand that. Now go look at what Itstoearly posted about $.30 being a good price for a round rather than the tax on a round.
 
2012-12-18 10:50:32 AM

Stone Meadow: ktybear: The argument always made sense.

IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.


otherwise its just decoration
 
2012-12-18 10:50:52 AM
Dimensio:]
You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.

Yes. Exactly! Now you're getting it!
 
2012-12-18 10:51:51 AM

Private_Citizen: The 3D printers would only be used for the lower (the FFL part). All other parts could be ordered from Brownells or another parts supplier. There are plenty of guns that don't beat the lowers to death (ARs for example) and lots of handguns that already use plastic lowers. With a few stragegic pieces of metal in a nylon printed lower (for the guide rails, etc), you could make a pretty good, completely unregistered/unregulated glock/sigma/XD, etc.

That's why ammo control makes a bit more sense than gun control (to many guns out there, and easy to get/make more).


Yup the other thing is they're ideal for throw away guns. So something cracks/fails after 500 rounds? That's perfectly fine for getting through a driveby or shooting some other place us. You can just pick another one after that. Or if it cracks after 100 rounds, just bring three or four. They'll be cheap to print off. Hell you could just have a backpack full of them and never have to reload. Just drop the gun and grab the next one.

The criminal is planning on disposing of the gun anyway, you don't need Glock quality for a gun you'll use for one event.
 
2012-12-18 10:52:02 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: MethylTryp

Englebert Slaptyback: Itstoearly:/b>Pay attention: that $.30 would be a tax added to the cost of the round.

Yes. It's called an excise tax. That's exactly the point.


Obviously I understand that. Now go look at what Itstoearly posted about $.30 being a good price for a round rather than the tax on a round.


Ah. That makes much more sense. For a second I thought maybe you were unclear on the concept. Apologies.
 
2012-12-18 10:52:56 AM

Z-clipped: If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.


But you can't pick it up and carry it with you.

/or tuck it in your waistband gangsta style
 
2012-12-18 10:53:00 AM
I saw that episode of CSI too.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:05 AM

Z-clipped: incendi: There are printers that work with materials other than plastic.

If you have a 3D printer with a laser powerful enough to cut an upper receiver out of a big block of steel, WTF do you need a gun for? You could shoot through schools with your 3D printer.


Nah, they use the laser to sinter the powder. Also, some versions use a binder.

/Engineer who uses 3D printers all the time.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:28 AM
Gun Control! Gun Control! Boy-howdy but the politicians are making big hay out of the Newtown massacre. Suddenly... Gun control!!!!

Isn't this like closing the barn door after the horses have got out?

The problems is that none of their brilliant plans are going to work. Something akin to Canada's Possession and Acquisition License program may help, but not much. We farked up long ago when we lifted the ban on civilians owning assault weapons. We can't put that genie back in the bottle. Bullets would be even harder to control than the guns that fire them. If someone wants to kill a lot of people, he will be able to get all the guns and bullets he needs, regardless of their legality.

I see no effective way to stop crazy.
 
2012-12-18 10:53:32 AM
meanwhile, the rest of us will figure out that we can use lead slugging pieces to make ad-hoc bullets with our stockpiles of Mosin Nagants....you know, for when the inevitable fading of the trillions of 7.62x54r finally occurs 200 years from now.
 
2012-12-18 10:54:07 AM

Biness: MythDragon: poot_rootbeer: MythDragon: If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids.

This is incorrect.

educate me then. What cluster of mass shootings have we had before the 90s.?

(I'm not counting gang violence. That was a criminal directing death at other criminals.)

there was that fella in texas in the bell tower. think that was the 60s. but that wasn't the norm back then. i was wearing an onion tied to my belt, as was the style at the time


Big white onion must have looked pretty snappy.
 
2012-12-18 10:55:03 AM

Biness: Stone Meadow: ktybear: The argument always made sense.

IIRC the Supremes addressed this argument in one of their rulings...a firearm is not an "arm" without bullets.

otherwise its just decoration


I should have said "ammunition" instead of bullets, of course, but yes...

MethylTryp: Dimensio:]
You are absolutely correct: a mentally unstable individual intent upon killing numerous individuals would be deterred by an additional cost added to ammunition.

Yes. Exactly! Now you're getting it!


So, when do the calls to outlaw kitchen knives start? 22 Kids Slashed in China Elementary School Knife Attack
 
2012-12-18 10:55:20 AM

Coolfusis: Uh. Any gun manufactured like that would fall apart after a few rounds. It requires well-made metal parts that are machined to fit perfectly, or the sheer force from the round will rip it to shreds. Newton's laws, and all that.

Also, bulletsaren't terribly difficult to make, nor is gunpowder. The primers could cause issue, reloading them is really, really dangerous.

This is not a problem we can just wave away with a simple amount of legislation. It's going to require a multi-step buyback of firearms, investment in mental health programs, regulation of magazines and ammunition, and probably some serious cultural changes (specifically the media) before tragedies like Sandy Hook stop happening. It will be long, hard and really goddamn expensive. It will be immensely unpopular - the left will say it's not good enough, the right will say it's too much, but it's the only real option.


Actually no, there's another option. We could do nothing and stop making these madmen in to celebrities. Overall violence has been trending down for a long time. In the heat of the moment emotion makes us lose perspective.
 
2012-12-18 10:55:23 AM

MythDragon: How long have we hard 'modern' guns? About a 100 years or so. Since the first couple of semi-automatic weapons came out (the 1911 and a few before) guns really haven't changed very much. So we have had 'high power' guns with 'large capacity' magazines for a good century now. If guns were the cause of shootings, where have all the mass school and mall shootings been for the last 90 or so years? It's only been in the past 10 years that we've had crazies walking into a building and start shooting kids. The guns have been around long before that. And restrictions have gotten much tighter since the 1900s. Obviously there is another issue here. We need to look at why people are crazy. Is it too much lead in the water? Antibiotics in the meat? CIA brainscanners not calibrated properly? If people wheren't going on mass public shootings 20 years ago, why has it suddenly become a thing?


I'm going to make the case that the rise of the information age, the internet and 24 hours cable news especially, is what has changed in the last 10 years. Now the disturbed person who is angry at the world knows they can be famous and finally let everyone know how much they were hurting by sharing that hurt. What's more, they'll get the "satisfaction" of knowing that tens of millions of people all over the planet will feel that impact.

What's the solution? That I don't know. I would start by asking that news outlets voluntarily never reveal the name and picture of the perpetrator and focus all coverage on the victims and measures that should be taken in the future to prevent these types of things. If we eliminate the global forum we will hopefully reduce the incentive.
 
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