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(C|Net)   Dell: consumers will get confused with Windows RT, call it something else. Ballmer: Nah, you're crazy. Consumers: I'd like to return this defective product, please   (news.cnet.com) divider line 197
    More: Obvious, Windows, reverse transcriptases, Great Satan, Ballmer, Windows Store  
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11203 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Dec 2012 at 12:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



197 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2012-12-17 09:07:16 PM  
*bill_gates.jpg*
"Miss me yet?"
 
2012-12-17 09:19:55 PM  
The scathenfrith in this thread shall be tasty.

Anyways, MS really is farking up more than usual. What gives?
 
2012-12-17 09:24:43 PM  
Dear Microsoft,

If you're going to be last on the bus, you should at least ensure your lardass can fit in the remaining seats.

Sincerely,
The World
 
2012-12-17 09:25:49 PM  
It should be called Windows-ARM RT, or WART for short.
 
2012-12-17 09:28:35 PM  
People make uninformed purchases, film at 11
 
2012-12-17 09:31:52 PM  
More on this story as it DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-17 09:36:43 PM  
I can't imagine it will be that successful. The problem is that by the time it hit's critical mass where there is enough software for it to be useful, Windows pro will be available on Atom tablets for the same or a similar price.

So why buy the crippled version?
 
2012-12-17 09:43:13 PM  
why buy a windows tablet to start with?
between droid and ios, WHY would you use anything else?
esp since the turd wont run windows apps??

LOL
 
2012-12-17 09:55:19 PM  
This isn't Microsoft's fault. It's shiatty salespeople who are either uneducated about the product or deliberately deceptive and are trying to get sales in before Christmas.

Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.
 
2012-12-17 10:04:39 PM  
This is exactly why Apple doesn't call what runs on an iPad, iPhone, or iPod Touch "OS X", and even why Google keeps Android on phones and tablets and has another name entirely for what runs on laptop devices, Chrome OS.

You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.
 
2012-12-17 10:27:50 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.


It would have been nice if Microsoft had included an x86->ARM binary translator. I used an x86->Alpha translator (FX!32) on my DEC Alpha workstation back in the day and it ran apps at about 90% of native speed*. Given that we've had a decade of research into JITC compilers and x86 virtual machines, I'd expect translators to be even better.

Sorry MS, you have to beat Apple via some other game. Giving people access to a huge library of Windows app was one of them. But you had to fark that up, too.


/once the app translation was mostly in cache
 
2012-12-17 10:31:41 PM  

jake_lex: You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.


They could have bought the rights to µOS and used it instead. Total play on their company name.
 
2012-12-17 11:03:26 PM  

Dinjiin: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.

It would have been nice if Microsoft had included an x86->ARM binary translator. I used an x86->Alpha translator (FX!32) on my DEC Alpha workstation back in the day and it ran apps at about 90% of native speed*. Given that we've had a decade of research into JITC compilers and x86 virtual machines, I'd expect translators to be even better.

Sorry MS, you have to beat Apple via some other game. Giving people access to a huge library of Windows app was one of them. But you had to fark that up, too.


/once the app translation was mostly in cache


Microsoft's goal is not to overtake iOS, it's to get a toe-hold in the tablet market.

Besides, I have a feeling that once the execs and salespeople get a good look at the Surface Pro, the Enterprise market will start driving towards it instead of the iPad.
 
2012-12-18 12:35:37 AM  
I'd like to return this defective product, please

Doesn't sound like they're confused at all.
 
2012-12-18 12:43:07 AM  

Dinjiin: jake_lex: You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.

They could have bought the rights to µOS and used it instead. Total play on their company name.


People that geek run linux. Your average Win user will look at that and go "YouOS? What a funny looking 'u' that is."
 
2012-12-18 12:52:31 AM  
What about Windows FART?
 
2012-12-18 01:08:47 AM  
So people who buy an OS called Windows expect it to run Windows software? Who would have imagined...
 
2012-12-18 01:16:29 AM  
The thing that absolutely kills me with Microsoft marketing is they're more concerned with selling their image than selling the product. The image they sell though is so cringe worthy cheesy you can't help but associate with their products even if they're good or not.

You know how Sinbad spent his entire career trying to be a black comedian even though he was really a white comedian? That's Microsoft.
 
2012-12-18 01:17:01 AM  

From the comments:


So what you are saying is that Windows RT runs Windows applications but not Windows Applications that I already run in Windows.
 
2012-12-18 01:18:16 AM  
The most sensible thing to do since A) They wanted the Windows name in the OS name, and B) It only runs Metro apps and not legacy programs would be to call the OS: Windows Metro. Of course putting Ballmer and sensible together is like putting oil and water together. WTF is Windows RT anyway? Windows ReTard?
 
2012-12-18 01:27:25 AM  

jake_lex: This is exactly why Apple doesn't call what runs on an iPad, iPhone, or iPod Touch "OS X", and even why Google keeps Android on phones and tablets and has another name entirely for what runs on laptop devices, Chrome OS.

You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.


Actually one complaint about the IPad when it first came out was from people who were led to believe that it would be able to replace there laptops and do everything a laptop was able to do.

Hand Banana: So people who buy an OS called Windows expect it to run Windows software? Who would have imagined...


5 minutes of research into what they were buying and they would have realized that maybe the RT model wasn't what they were looking for and waiting for the Pro model would have been better suited for them.
 
2012-12-18 01:38:06 AM  

Dinjiin: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.

It would have been nice if Microsoft had included an x86->ARM binary translator. I used an x86->Alpha translator (FX!32) on my DEC Alpha workstation back in the day and it ran apps at about 90% of native speed*. Given that we've had a decade of research into JITC compilers and x86 virtual machines, I'd expect translators to be even better.


ATM Machine?
 
2012-12-18 01:47:51 AM  
If you can't win customers because you have a good product, trick them into buying it by confusing the shiat out of them.

This is not a new strategy for Microsoft.
 
2012-12-18 01:50:59 AM  

Dinjiin: They could have bought the rights to µOS and used it instead. Total play on their company name.


Yeah, because do you know what works really well in the 21st century? Brand names you can't google.
 
2012-12-18 01:57:33 AM  

Dinjiin: It would have been nice if Microsoft had included an x86->ARM binary translator. I used an x86->Alpha translator (FX!32) on my DEC Alpha workstation back in the day and it ran apps at about 90% of native speed*. Given that we've had a decade of research into JITC compilers and x86 virtual machines, I'd expect translators to be even better.


I bet customers would balk when they saw how slow the MS Surface would be at running a typical Windows app.
 
2012-12-18 02:00:51 AM  
I'm not sure that I see the problem.
 
2012-12-18 02:03:25 AM  
Let's try that again, with the picture this time. Preview is my friend. 

www.richterscale.org
 
2012-12-18 02:09:50 AM  

Gordon Bennett: Let's try that again, with the picture this time. Preview is my friend. 

[www.richterscale.org image 418x342]


I kinda miss mine. Instant boot.
 
2012-12-18 02:31:23 AM  
Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.
 
2012-12-18 02:35:10 AM  

CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.


Microsoft does not invest in common sense. Microsoft just does not get it. With Gates, Microsoft was at their zenith. Gates understood the product. Ballmer isn't a geek; he can never understand
 
2012-12-18 02:39:22 AM  
Windows RT is the most godawful, wrongly formed name for an operating system in existence. What does it even FARKING MEAN? Run Time? That's stupid. Is it to call back to Windows CE that NO ONE CARES ABOUT?

It's just goddamn embarrassing to have such major company fail so hard at just creating a name that just isn't completely idiotic. It isn't hard. MetroOS, SurfaceOS, Windows Metro, any of those would be less dumb.
 
2012-12-18 02:46:17 AM  

MrEricSir: If you can't win customers because you have a good product, trick them into buying it by confusing the shiat out of them.

This is not a new strategy for Microsoft.


How did Microsoft trick anybody with the RT? It has been clearly put out, for those who care to do 5 minutes of research, that the RT was a typical tablet and the Pro was the true Microsoft OS that would be able to behave like a laptop.
 
2012-12-18 02:50:16 AM  

cman: CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.

Microsoft does not invest in common sense. Microsoft just does not get it. With Gates, Microsoft was at their zenith. Gates understood the product. Ballmer isn't a geek; he can never understand


Apparently not, since they really could have also moved the entirety of Windows Phone to x86 (Atom again) when they re-did the kernel between WP7 and WP8. Given that the existing ecosystem was so small for WP7 it would have been a great time to do it, and then you could have literally just had a checkbox to compile a .NET program for Windows Phone. This whole platform transition away from the desktop really shouldn't be that painful, we have the technology!

Hell, is it Intel that is your problem? Because AMD has a very similar platform named Fusion. Once again, what's the deal?

This should have been an easy slam dunk but Microsoft had to go spill RISC in its CISC world.

/guess I'll go grab my Lumia 920 and cry myself to sleep
 
2012-12-18 02:56:06 AM  

ongbok: MrEricSir: If you can't win customers because you have a good product, trick them into buying it by confusing the shiat out of them.

This is not a new strategy for Microsoft.

How did Microsoft trick anybody with the RT? It has been clearly put out, for those who care to do 5 minutes of research, that the RT was a typical tablet and the Pro was the true Microsoft OS that would be able to behave like a laptop.


If you're looking at products in a store, and they have a bunch of tablets right next to the PC's, both of which that say "Windows" and whose Start screens look idenetical, I can easily see why someone would make the assumption.
 
2012-12-18 02:56:41 AM  

ongbok: MrEricSir: If you can't win customers because you have a good product, trick them into buying it by confusing the shiat out of them.

This is not a new strategy for Microsoft.

How did Microsoft trick anybody with the RT? It has been clearly put out, for those who care to do 5 minutes of research, that the RT was a typical tablet and the Pro was the true Microsoft OS that would be able to behave like a laptop.


They named it Windows RT.
 
2012-12-18 03:04:01 AM  

ongbok: MrEricSir: If you can't win customers because you have a good product, trick them into buying it by confusing the shiat out of them.

This is not a new strategy for Microsoft.

How did Microsoft trick anybody with the RT? It has been clearly put out, for those who care to do 5 minutes of research, that the RT was a typical tablet and the Pro was the true Microsoft OS that would be able to behave like a laptop.


nope, not even close to clear enough. it has been windows __ for years and you can't expect people to know that THIS time it actually means something.... then it is a random set of letters, not "tablet" or "lite" or "express" just RT which obviously means something to someone who doesn't even know the difference between word and windows.

it was/is a mistake, saying otherwise shows a great misunderstanding of the market.
 
2012-12-18 03:16:33 AM  
Headline is neckbeard Linux fanboy trolling. Dell doesn't make a Windows RT device. So how the fark are people returning them to Dell?

The manufacturers are:

Samsung (Ativ)
Lenovo (IdeaPad)
ASUS (Vivo Tab)

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/features/1638084/a_complete_guide_to_ev e ry_windows_8_and_windows_rt_device_launched_so_far_details_specs_hardw are.html
 
2012-12-18 03:31:10 AM  

narkor: Headline is neckbeard Linux fanboy trolling. Dell doesn't make a Windows RT device. So how the fark are people returning them to Dell?


The headline is saying Dell is boasting, not that people are returning anything to Dell.
 
2012-12-18 03:58:48 AM  

narkor: Headline is neckbeard Linux fanboy trolling. Dell doesn't make a Windows RT device. So how the fark are people returning them to Dell?

The manufacturers are:

Samsung (Ativ)
Lenovo (IdeaPad)
ASUS (Vivo Tab)

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/features/1638084/a_complete_guide_to_ev e ry_windows_8_and_windows_rt_device_launched_so_far_details_specs_hardw are.html


Link

I know google is hard to use for you non neckbeards.
 
2012-12-18 03:58:55 AM  

gwowen: Yeah, because do you know what works really well in the 21st century? Brand names you can't google.


Lighten up, Francis. µOS = MicroOS. The letter is usually spelled out in the consumer marketplace.


StoPPeRmobile: ATM Machine?


JITC = Just-in-time compilation. It falls between source interpreters/emulators and source compilers/translators. Think of an old BASIC interpreter that can save its work in a cache after interpreting it. If it comes across a line of code that is already in the cache, it hits the cache instead of re-interpreting it.


MrEricSir: I bet customers would balk when they saw how slow the MS Surface would be at running a typical Windows app.


The complaint I heard was that dynamic translation would chew up too much battery, although they could go the same route as FX!32 and have the JITC translator save the cache to disk. Eventually, you'd have a 100% cache hit rate, so that drain would go away over time. But that eats up storage.

Multi-threaded apps might run well if they can use all four cores. Single-threaded apps that camp on a single core would be the problem. You're also memory limited, which is a problem.
 
2012-12-18 05:18:55 AM  
If I am buying a windows product it is because I already have a bunch of windows software I want to run on the thing. If I have to buy a new product and then be put in a walled garden to buy a new bunch of software then I will go for a platform that does this well and has a bunch of apps.

If I want a real computer I will get a laptop or desktop with a real OS.

This product does not do what I need and it seems to do it badly at the same time...
 
2012-12-18 05:38:57 AM  
I'm not sure why there is so much yammering about the Zune 2.0. There was one on display in my local Staples. I played with it for about 5 seconds. It felt cheap and all the stupid stuff on the screen was confusing. At least the iPad is a fun toy to play with. This windoze tablet thing simply sucked.
 
2012-12-18 06:02:30 AM  
This has clearly been one of those typical flawless Microsoft rollouts.
 
2012-12-18 06:13:36 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: I kinda miss mine. Instant boot.


I had an HPC, too, a Compaq. Went next to a Palm IIIc. After my Palm died I went without for a while, running an Android phone now.

I was in an airport last week, and they were offering "prizes" for trying out the RT tablets. I couldn't get the guy to admit that it would not run Office actually on the machine. The lines were along, "well,you have access to all the same Office apps." "You have 32 GB of on-board storage." To be fair, I didn't push it that hard, but it felt a little misleading. I probably should have asked a very specific question - "If I take this on a plane, and don't pay for on-board internet access, can I still use Office in flight?"

Oh, yeah, my "prize" was a five-dollar "coupon" on Living Social - no thanks. I was pleasantly surprised they didn't ask for an e-mail address just to fill out the post-demo survey.
 
2012-12-18 06:30:20 AM  

Unobtanium: StoPPeRmobile: I kinda miss mine. Instant boot.

I had an HPC, too, a Compaq. Went next to a Palm IIIc. After my Palm died I went without for a while, running an Android phone now.

I was in an airport last week, and they were offering "prizes" for trying out the RT tablets. I couldn't get the guy to admit that it would not run Office actually on the machine. The lines were along, "well,you have access to all the same Office apps." "You have 32 GB of on-board storage." To be fair, I didn't push it that hard, but it felt a little misleading. I probably should have asked a very specific question - "If I take this on a plane, and don't pay for on-board internet access, can I still use Office in flight?"

Oh, yeah, my "prize" was a five-dollar "coupon" on Living Social - no thanks. I was pleasantly surprised they didn't ask for an e-mail address just to fill out the post-demo survey.


I can't tell if you are trolling or truly believe what you wrote.

Office actually runs on the surface with no network connection I am in airplane mode and word opens like it should.

If you move the recovery partition to a USB drive you have about 21 GB available. You can add a mini SD card to get more space but can't save apps to it, that could change the OS is barely 2 Months old.
 
2012-12-18 06:32:03 AM  

Unobtanium: can I still use Office in flight?


If I'm not mistaken Office 2013 RT is interoperable with Office Live and real Office 2013, but there are some lacking features, some of which may be added later. So my understanding is that the answer should be a tenetive yes assuming you're not doing something very significant, or expecting to use macros.

/played around with it, liked it well enough
//the 600dpi digitizer on the surface pro is pretty intriguing.
 
2012-12-18 06:45:24 AM  
Why I sold my IPad for the Surface.

First, I researched windows rt before I bought it (I know thats crazy!)

My printer works without any third Party software or utility.
Battery life is similar to what I got on my Ipad
I can use my Xbox controller to play games made for it
I can run two apps side by side
The share option remembers the last few things you did to make it faster in repeating that task. For example, I emailed some pics but a couple hours later I had more to send so it gives me the email address of who I sent before.
I can connect a mini hdmi cable and get an even bigger screen to play games, movies whatnot on.
I can expand my storage with a micro sd card
I can listen to all the music I want for 9.99 a month online or offline
I have office that comes free with my device
I have support for the device until 2016
I can use over 400,000,000 devices with it
My windows phone can be managed from my tablet and I can charge it without being plugged into a power source.
My favorites are the same on both my pc and tablet.
The only thing I could perceive as a negative would be lack of apps but lets be real here its MS eventually everyone will be on board.
 
2012-12-18 06:52:08 AM  
I'm just flabbergasted as to WHY they had to even had a name for the ARM OS on the tablets. It's not as if you can buy it from the store to install on a device...

Surface OS would have been fine, that way people would realize it's too different products just at a glance.
 
2012-12-18 06:52:50 AM  
Well at least Windows 7 is still good.
 
2012-12-18 07:05:56 AM  
or maybe call it "MetrOS"

the name says what it does.
 
2012-12-18 07:08:42 AM  
You know, I think MS is starting to realize that no amount of marketing or astroturfing is turning the market around for them, and they're starting to freak out.

I'm ok with this. They make shiatty products. (Exception: Xbox, but even that is getting long in the tooth.)
 
2012-12-18 07:22:23 AM  

Gordon Bennett: Let's try that again, with the picture this time. Preview is my friend. 

[www.richterscale.org image 418x342]


Yep, WinCE all over again. Except it should have been obvious that those devices couldn't run regular apps, with a screen that small and (on most devices) no keyboard. What tripped me up back then was finding out too late that there were TWO WinCEs which could not run each other's software.

Then, of course, there was Windows NT, which looked like regular Windows but was incompatible with a lot of Windows desktop software. People may not have bought it for desktop PCs accidentally, but the Windows brand & look helped it dominate and destroy Novell, even though it was a shiatty OS for a network server -- precisely because it had all that extra code & cycles devoted to running a Windows GUI. People had no idea how much that 3D pipes screensaver was dragging down their performance.

In my day, there was none of this namby-pamby "user friendly" crap. We entered code a byte at a time on binary switches -- and we liked it!

(I kid. We used punchcards.)
 
2012-12-18 07:32:43 AM  
Does anybody expect to be able to run Windows software on Windows phones?
 
2012-12-18 07:37:53 AM  

finnished: Does anybody expect to be able to run Windows software on Windows phones?


You mean you can`t?
 
2012-12-18 07:55:43 AM  

finnished: Does anybody expect to be able to run Windows software on Windows phones?


What's a Windows phone?
 
2012-12-18 08:11:40 AM  
The ONLY thing Microsoft really has going for it, even today, is brand recognition and the homogeneity of its product lines. People buy Microsoft because they've always bought Microsoft. People expect that when you buy Windows you can run Windows software like Office. They expect to be able to run current, future and past Windows software like Office 2007 or 2010.

When you release a version of Windows that can't run Windows software, you're throwing everything you have to sell right out the window.

/ to be fair, I never thought Ballmer was terribly bright to begin with and he's part of the reason I'm afraid to invest in Microsoft long term
 
2012-12-18 08:22:29 AM  

terminalx: Why I sold my IPad for the Surface.

First, I researched windows rt before I bought it (I know thats crazy!)

My printer works without any third Party software or utility.
Battery life is similar to what I got on my Ipad
I can use my Xbox controller to play games made for it
I can run two apps side by side
The share option remembers the last few things you did to make it faster in repeating that task. For example, I emailed some pics but a couple hours later I had more to send so it gives me the email address of who I sent before.
I can connect a mini hdmi cable and get an even bigger screen to play games, movies whatnot on.
I can expand my storage with a micro sd card
I can listen to all the music I want for 9.99 a month online or offline
I have office that comes free with my device
I have support for the device until 2016
I can use over 400,000,000 devices with it
My windows phone can be managed from my tablet and I can charge it without being plugged into a power source.
My favorites are the same on both my pc and tablet.
The only thing I could perceive as a negative would be lack of apps but lets be real here its MS eventually everyone will be on board.


This.

I picked up a 64 gb Surface last week so I could get first-hand experience with it, and after a week of use, I don't get what all the snarking is about (and I've tossed some weapons-grade snark over the years). I've owned every iPad, and several of the higher-end Android devices. All were (mostly) great devices. However, my Surface is simply the best tablet I've ever owned. It does everything I need, and is the first tablet that had a prayer of replacing my laptop on a short business trip - thanks to the keyboard cover and Office.

I'm no fanboy of any platform, but I'm really pleased with Microsoft's admittedly late entry into this space.
 
2012-12-18 08:28:18 AM  

finnished: Does anybody expect to be able to run Windows software on Windows phones?


As long as the phone meets the technical specs, why not? Your average Windows user has no idea about processor architecture. Theoretically, the Lumia 920 meets the technical specifications to run Office 2010 and Office 2010 runs on Windows 8 and this is a Windows 8 phone so why shouldn't it be possible, right?

Even more importantly, running Office on a Surface actually makes some sense and the typical Surface RT user is the regular Joe "Angry Birds" Consumer. You think he's going to understand that the ARM processor-based tablet isn't going to let him run Office on Windows? It's Office, it runs on Windows, it's a tablet that runs Windows, why shouldn't it work?

I can understand if they did this with the Surface version that was aimed at professionals since you're more likely to get an IT person involved who will understand all these things, but to make this decisions with the consumer version that you're aiming at people who think "Intel" is the processor in their computer and have never even heard of "ARM" is just terrible business. 

And then top it all off with the fact that the marketing guys are running around saying "Windows 8 is completely compatible with existing Windows apps!" and "It's one OS on everything now!" and the whole thing is just plain absurd. I don't see how they thought anything less than significant confusion would ensue.
 
2012-12-18 08:33:48 AM  
Surface is a really nice product. Hopefully it takes off. Competition in the tablet market only helps.
 
2012-12-18 08:35:00 AM  

Dinjiin: StoPPeRmobile: ATM Machine?

JITC = Just-in-time compilation. It falls between source interpreters/emulators and source compilers/translators. Think of an old BASIC code interpreter that can save its work in a cache after interpreting it. If it comes across a line of code that is already in the cache, it hits the cache instead of re-interpreting it.


FTFY
 
2012-12-18 08:55:16 AM  

terminalx: Unobtanium: StoPPeRmobile: I kinda miss mine. Instant boot.

I had an HPC, too, a Compaq. Went next to a Palm IIIc. After my Palm died I went without for a while, running an Android phone now.

I was in an airport last week, and they were offering "prizes" for trying out the RT tablets. I couldn't get the guy to admit that it would not run Office actually on the machine. The lines were along, "well,you have access to all the same Office apps." "You have 32 GB of on-board storage." To be fair, I didn't push it that hard, but it felt a little misleading. I probably should have asked a very specific question - "If I take this on a plane, and don't pay for on-board internet access, can I still use Office in flight?"

Oh, yeah, my "prize" was a five-dollar "coupon" on Living Social - no thanks. I was pleasantly surprised they didn't ask for an e-mail address just to fill out the post-demo survey.

I can't tell if you are trolling or truly believe what you wrote.

Office actually runs on the surface with no network connection I am in airplane mode and word opens like it should.

If you move the recovery partition to a USB drive you have about 21 GB available. You can add a mini SD card to get more space but can't save apps to it, that could change the OS is barely 2 Months old.


I will apologize then. I was going on bad info, apparently. It didn't help that the guy doing the demo seemed to not answer my questions.
 
2012-12-18 09:03:59 AM  
An entire decade has passed and I still can't stop laughing at Windows RG
 
2012-12-18 09:06:44 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: You think he's going to understand that the ARM processor-based tablet isn't going to let him run Office on Windows?


every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?

Vegan Meat Popsicle: And then top it all off with the fact that the marketing guys are running around saying "Windows 8 is completely compatible with existing Windows apps!" and "It's one OS on everything now!" and the whole thing is just plain absurd. I don't see how they thought anything less than significant confusion would ensue.


well it is one OS. but only the new "Windows Run Time" (aka "Metro") style apps will be auto-portable between architectures.

Unobtanium: I will apologize then. I was going on bad info, apparently. It didn't help that the guy doing the demo seemed to not answer my questions.


on the commuter bus to work every day i sit behind one of the higher ups in training those field sales techs. he's constantly cranky because they're idiots who don't learn what they're taught.



I agree that the naming will creating confusion.

"Windows Phone" is obviously a phone, people are not going to expect it to run their desktop apps
"Windows Surface RT" is a tablet, it looks like their desktop version of windows, but it cannot run all the apps (RT=Run Time, btw. Metro apps run in "Windows RT")
"Windows Surface Pro" is a tablet, but it's also an ultraboook. it runs the desktop version of windows (W8Pro), and runs everything
"Windows 8"/"Windows 8 Pro" is the desktop version.


I totally agree that there is not sufficient built-in-naming differentiation - blame branding who thinks we need to stomp "Windows" on everything that uses the windows kernel.
 
2012-12-18 09:07:29 AM  
Or they could just have an emulator that can run x86 programs.
 
2012-12-18 09:11:11 AM  
The problem here is that Microsoft cares much more about what is good for Microsoft than it cares about what is good for their customers. This shows massive contempt for their users and leads to piss poor decisions such as:

Releasing a Flagship Windows Phone only months ago, despite knowing it will never be upgradable to Windows Phone 8 or be able to run apps made for Windows Phone 8. Now there are customers with a new two year contract stuck with instantly outdated hardware.

Forcing the Metro interface on Windows 8 users on the desktop, because the most important thing for Microsoft is to leverage Windows to break into the tablet space, not to allow users to leverage 20 years of training to get their work done. There's nothing wrong with Metro on a touch screen, but forcing it on desktops over screams of protest from your customers shows a high level of contempt for your customers.

Then there is the part where you ignore good advice from Dell. Your customers are supposed to be more important to you than "leveraging the Windows brand." You could have gone with Windows Metro, at least.
 
2012-12-18 09:12:52 AM  

Dinjiin: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.

It would have been nice if Microsoft had included an x86->ARM binary translator. I used an x86->Alpha translator (FX!32) on my DEC Alpha workstation back in the day and it ran apps at about 90% of native speed*. Given that we've had a decade of research into JITC compilers and x86 virtual machines, I'd expect translators to be even better.

Sorry MS, you have to beat Apple via some other game. Giving people access to a huge library of Windows app was one of them. But you had to fark that up, too.


/once the app translation was mostly in cache


Two things:
Alpha RISC >> x86 (the Pentium Pro gained more ground than anyone expected, but Alpha ruled until Carly Fiorina bought DEC and killed Alpha).
X86 >> ARM (at least in performance)

Was the 90% native speed the native speed on a pentium vs. Alpha? Thats a hit of at least a factor of 3-4. Going the other way is going to make windows insanely painful.

The other catch is that RT only uses apps bought from the MSStore. It isn't like they want to give that up.
 
2012-12-18 09:17:21 AM  
On the subject of computing devices with no real-world use, I really wish someone would finally come up with a version of Linux which will run on my Sun Blade 100.

/A big, inconvenient phone without the phone part or a slow, crippled laptop that you can't type on.
 
2012-12-18 09:34:51 AM  

Dinjiin: JITC compiler... StoPPeRmobile: ATM Machine?

JITC = Just-in-time compilation compiler compiler. So yeah, ATM Machine.


FTFY
 
2012-12-18 09:40:34 AM  

namatad: why buy a windows tablet to start with?
between droid and ios, WHY would you use anything else?
esp since the turd wont run windows apps??


I edited you LOL comment out, because it didn't fit.

I'd love to have it on a celluar phone, the Lumia 920 for instance. IMHO Metro is far superiour to iOs, and somewhat superiour to Androids widgets.

It doesn't have as many applications, but who cares, there's like 10 applications max. I want to run on a celluar phone, and it has those.


I think the number of available applications means more on a tablet, which is why I got an Nexus 7, but the picture is still kinda the same. Metro rules for touch based devices, it just does. I don't really know what applications I'd want for a tablet that Windows RT doesn't have, since again, all the common stuff people want is the stuff that gets ported first.
 
2012-12-18 09:47:30 AM  
Kazan: on the commuter bus to work every day i sit behind one of the higher ups in training those field sales techs. he's constantly cranky because they're idiots who don't learn what they're taught.

I also do a lot of training, in a different field. I can sympathize.

/Since this is Fark, instead of apologizing to terminalx, I probably should have thrown an ad hominem "fanboi" and run off.
 
2012-12-18 09:57:29 AM  

Unobtanium: Kazan: on the commuter bus to work every day i sit behind one of the higher ups in training those field sales techs. he's constantly cranky because they're idiots who don't learn what they're taught.

I also do a lot of training, in a different field. I can sympathize.

/Since this is Fark, instead of apologizing to terminalx, I probably should have thrown an ad hominem "fanboi" and run off.


Oddly, these threads can be informative and downright pleasant as long as the usual suspects of brand boosters don't show up.

I ended up trying a Windows RT tablet this weekend at the Microsoft Store at the Mall of America this weekend (right before buying an iPhone 5 across the hall at the Apple store, oddly enough). For the most part I liked it. there were little quirks I need to learn to use one effectively, though. For example, I was trying to figure out the gesture to bring up the charm bar.

I'm interested in seeing how the Surface Pros with Atoms perform. I recently tried running a WMCE PC on an Atom D2500 and it was a little bit of a let down.
 
2012-12-18 09:59:24 AM  
cache.gizmodo.com
 
2012-12-18 10:19:28 AM  

finnished: Does anybody expect to be able to run Windows software on Windows phones?


I dunno, but I wouldn't blame someone if they made that mistake.

I'm sure that the MS tablets will be just as successful as the Zune.
 
2012-12-18 10:20:28 AM  

BullBearMS: The problem here is that Microsoft cares much more about what is good for Microsoft than it cares about what is good for their customers. This shows massive contempt for their users and leads to piss poor decisions such as:


I agree with everything you said, but I would say MS cares about what it THINKS is good for MS. Making the customers happy and turning a profit should be the top two things any company that cares about its future does.

Really, this whole product family launch has been epic in it's marketing failure. Windows RT. Windows Phone 8. Surface. Windows 8. Metro. No wait, Modern. Forget we ever said Metro. Surface RT. Surface Pro. Office RT: commercial use? Maybe. Compatible? Almost completely. IE 10, two versions! Surface is a tablet, not the table thing we used to call Surface. Windows Phone 7.8. Windows Tagg.

It's so bad that I have to wonder about the internal decision making at a company that would allow such a dismal launch. Is it all Ballmer's heavy handed and head-in-the-sand strategy, or is it that they are caught up in GroupThink and seriously can't smell their own shiat?
 
2012-12-18 10:21:34 AM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: This isn't Microsoft's fault. It's shiatty salespeople
...
Microsoft's goal is not to overtake iOS, it's to get a toe-hold in the tablet market.

Besides, I have a feeling that once the execs and salespeople get a good look at the Surface Pro, the Enterprise market will start driving towards it instead of the iPad.


Damn, just tear up that ticket, man, your horse is dying out there.

It's pretty sad to see people defending Microsoft so vehemently when they're dying slow death with that throwback Ballmer at the helm. Did you notice how 3 years ago there was no "tablet market" for these me-toos in which to dump their crappy, user-hostile products? Face it: only a longtime MS dev or "edgy" anti-Apple reverse-fanboi would possibly defend them, because the Microsoft strategy is--and essentially always has been--sifting through the proverbial dumpsters behind Apple's R+D. All they have is a few more years of slowing momentum before they die. Just let it go.
 
2012-12-18 10:26:19 AM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Besides, I have a feeling that once the execs and salespeople get a good look at the Surface Pro, the Enterprise market will start driving towards it instead of the iPad.


Not while outlook is left out in the cold they won't..
 
2012-12-18 10:28:30 AM  

vpb: I can't imagine it will be that successful. The problem is that by the time it hit's critical mass where there is enough software for it to be useful, Windows pro will be available on Atom tablets for the same or a similar price.

So why buy the crippled version?


I'd say the reason to buy it would be to have all of your portable devices on the same platform. The way iPhones and iPads and iPod Touch all run iOS. And the way Android phones and tablets all run Android.

Except the Win8 Phone and Win8 RT platforms aren't directly compatible so...Um...Yeah, why would anyone buy the RT tablets?

Sure, properly designed "Metro" apps will work across all three platforms but how many useful Metro apps exist right now? The whole thing's just a big mess.
 
2012-12-18 10:30:29 AM  
Oddly, these threads can be informative and downright pleasant

Yep.

As for the tablets, I am really in the market for a laptop, my current "want" keeps bouncing around either a Toshiba R935 or the Asus S405.

I am supposed to have a "free" Kindle Fire HD coming my way. Would not have been my first choice, but the price is right. Might root it.
 
2012-12-18 10:35:30 AM  

ebamit: It does everything I need, and is the first tablet that had a prayer of replacing my laptop on a short business trip - thanks to the keyboard cover and Office.


You got a special licence for that? Cos if you look at your box, your breaking the terms of your licence agreement in a big way....
 
2012-12-18 10:42:45 AM  

cman: Microsoft does not invest in common sense. Microsoft just does not get it. With Gates, Microsoft was at their zenith. Gates understood the product. Ballmer isn't a geek; he can never understand


No, no; they're both geeks, they just used very different definitions. Gates was a geek in the technologically-minded sense. Ballmer is a geek in the biting-the-heads-off-chickens-as-performance-art sense.
 
2012-12-18 10:47:33 AM  

gerbilpox: Gordon Bennett: Let's try that again, with the picture this time. Preview is my friend. 

[www.richterscale.org image 418x342]

Yep, WinCE all over again. Except it should have been obvious that those devices couldn't run regular apps, with a screen that small and (on most devices) no keyboard. What tripped me up back then was finding out too late that there were TWO WinCEs which could not run each other's software.

Then, of course, there was Windows NT, which looked like regular Windows but was incompatible with a lot of Windows desktop software. People may not have bought it for desktop PCs accidentally, but the Windows brand & look helped it dominate and destroy Novell, even though it was a shiatty OS for a network server -- precisely because it had all that extra code & cycles devoted to running a Windows GUI. People had no idea how much that 3D pipes screensaver was dragging down their performance.

In my day, there was none of this namby-pamby "user friendly" crap. We entered code a byte at a time on binary switches -- and we liked it!

(I kid. We used punchcards.)


We knew in the datacenter. Someone had to remember to reboot the Windows NT servers at least weekly, or the Pipes screensaver would memory leak and crash the server.
 
2012-12-18 10:48:48 AM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: You think he's going to understand that the ARM processor-based tablet isn't going to let him run Office on Windows?

every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?

Vegan Meat Popsicle: And then top it all off with the fact that the marketing guys are running around saying "Windows 8 is completely compatible with existing Windows apps!" and "It's one OS on everything now!" and the whole thing is just plain absurd. I don't see how they thought anything less than significant confusion would ensue.

well it is one OS. but only the new "Windows Run Time" (aka "Metro") style apps will be auto-portable between architectures.

Unobtanium: I will apologize then. I was going on bad info, apparently. It didn't help that the guy doing the demo seemed to not answer my questions.

on the commuter bus to work every day i sit behind one of the higher ups in training those field sales techs. he's constantly cranky because they're idiots who don't learn what they're taught.



I agree that the naming will creating confusion.

"Windows Phone" is obviously a phone, people are not going to expect it to run their desktop apps
"Windows Surface RT" is a tablet, it looks like their desktop version of windows, but it cannot run all the apps (RT=Run Time, btw. Metro apps run in "Windows RT")
"Windows Surface Pro" is a tablet, but it's also an ultraboook. it runs the desktop version of windows (W8Pro), and runs everything
"Windows 8"/"Windows 8 Pro" is the desktop version.


I totally agree that there is not sufficient built-in-naming differentiation - blame branding who thinks we need to stomp "Windows" on everything that uses the windows kernel.


Would that "commuter bus" be a Seattle Metro 545 "trail of tears" from Seattle to Redmond perchance?
 
2012-12-18 10:51:00 AM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: This isn't Microsoft's fault. It's shiatty salespeople who are either uneducated about the product or deliberately deceptive and are trying to get sales in before Christmas.

Q12013 the Surface Pro comes out and does exactly what this Dell doorknob is complaining about, but that would mean that salespeople wouldn't get their pre-xmas commission checks.


Actually, it is. When Apple did a PPC -> Intel move, they simply provided software (Rosetta) to allow running non native on new boxes. Also made sure Devs can release universal versions.

Microsoft could have done that without any trouble, albeit with a slower end-product since it would be on a slower chip. But for 99.99% of the pc software, save for games it would be enough.

Just sayin'
 
2012-12-18 10:54:02 AM  

thehighesttree: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: This isn't Microsoft's fault. It's shiatty salespeople
...
Microsoft's goal is not to overtake iOS, it's to get a toe-hold in the tablet market.

Besides, I have a feeling that once the execs and salespeople get a good look at the Surface Pro, the Enterprise market will start driving towards it instead of the iPad.

Damn, just tear up that ticket, man, your horse is dying out there.

It's pretty sad to see people defending Microsoft so vehemently when they're dying slow death with that throwback Ballmer at the helm. Did you notice how 3 years ago there was no "tablet market" for these me-toos in which to dump their crappy, user-hostile products? Face it: only a longtime MS dev or "edgy" anti-Apple reverse-fanboi would possibly defend them, because the Microsoft strategy is--and essentially always has been--sifting through the proverbial dumpsters behind Apple's R+D. All they have is a few more years of slowing momentum before they die. Just let it go.


Thats going to leave a pretty empty campus... over 100 buildings... lots of real estate, figuratively as well as literally.

I don't think they'll drop dead any time soon, there's a lot of revenue streams into the company besides consumer phones. This is still a move to gain customers... and it'll probably succeed, eventually, in some way or other.

Meanwhile those Sharepoint, Exchange, IIS, Office licenses just keep rollin along. XBOX is "long in the tooth" but still quite viable...

In the Enterprise, Microsoft is still king, and there is really no contender unless you credit Google Office... And a lot of companies have specific policies about not trusting weird third party data sharing. Google is being beat up in Europe over this very thing at the moment, which is ironic since 14 yrs ago Microsoft was the one that couldn't stay out of trouble in the EU.

Regardless, MS isn't going anywhere, even if the Android is the default phone platform in the future, and even if some people still think MS's business model is tied to imitating Apple. Thats been dead for a long time. MS's revenue is squarely in the enterprise now, and these lines of business are still pretty solid.
 
2012-12-18 10:54:10 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: The ONLY thing Microsoft really has going for it, even today, is brand recognition and the homogeneity of its product lines.


Homogenized Microsoft
2% FilchedMac
 
2012-12-18 10:56:48 AM  
I called it. Just saying.

Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.
 
2012-12-18 11:09:37 AM  

Esc7: Windows RT is the most godawful, wrongly formed name for an operating system in existence. What does it even FARKING MEAN? Run Time? That's stupid. Is it to call back to Windows CE that NO ONE CARES ABOUT?

It's just goddamn embarrassing to have such major company fail so hard at just creating a name that just isn't completely idiotic. It isn't hard. MetroOS, SurfaceOS, Windows Metro, any of those would be less dumb.


*clears throat*

"Windows Phone 8".

/ It's like they let the accounts receivable guy name it
 
2012-12-18 11:09:59 AM  

MightyPez: I'm interested in seeing how the Surface Pros with Atoms perform. I recently tried running a WMCE PC on an Atom D2500 and it was a little bit of a let down.


Surface Pro is not running atom. Surface Pro is running on an Ivy Bridge i5. Atom based ones are being made by third parties i believe.

Bacontastesgood: Modern. Forget we ever said Metro.


that was a rumor

thehighesttree: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: This isn't Microsoft's fault. It's shiatty salespeople
...
Microsoft's goal is not to overtake iOS, it's to get a toe-hold in the tablet market.

Besides, I have a feeling that once the execs and salespeople get a good look at the Surface Pro, the Enterprise market will start driving towards it instead of the iPad.

Damn, just tear up that ticket, man, your horse is dying out there.

It's pretty sad to see people defending Microsoft so vehemently when they're dying slow death with that throwback Ballmer at the helm. Did you notice how 3 years ago there was no "tablet market" for these me-toos in which to dump their crappy, user-hostile products? Face it: only a longtime MS dev or "edgy" anti-Apple reverse-fanboi would possibly defend them, because the Microsoft strategy is--and essentially always has been--sifting through the proverbial dumpsters behind Apple's R+D. All they have is a few more years of slowing momentum before they die. Just let it go.


actually you're one of the few people in this thread being a pure fanboi or hater. shut up, hypocrite.

Generation_D: Would that "commuter bus" be a Seattle Metro 545 "trail of tears" from Seattle to Redmond perchance?


no. and i've never heard that nickname for it an i'm confused as to why.

i use the MS Connector to get to work. MS FTE only.

Lord Dimwit: Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.


you might want to check your 'facts'
 
Zel
2012-12-18 11:11:11 AM  

terminalx: Why I sold my IPad for the Surface.

First, I researched windows rt before I bought it (I know thats crazy!)

My printer works without any third Party software or utility.
Battery life is similar to what I got on my Ipad
I can use my Xbox controller to play games made for it
I can run two apps side by side
The share option remembers the last few things you did to make it faster in repeating that task. For example, I emailed some pics but a couple hours later I had more to send so it gives me the email address of who I sent before.
I can connect a mini hdmi cable and get an even bigger screen to play games, movies whatnot on.
I can expand my storage with a micro sd card
I can listen to all the music I want for 9.99 a month online or offline
I have office that comes free with my device
I have support for the device until 2016
I can use over 400,000,000 devices with it
My windows phone can be managed from my tablet and I can charge it without being plugged into a power source.
My favorites are the same on both my pc and tablet.
The only thing I could perceive as a negative would be lack of apps but lets be real here its MS eventually everyone will be on board.


I was going to say this checklist looks like my new android, but there are a lot of caveats. For half what you paid I miss printing and "support till 2016" whatever that means. No hdmi, and getting the Xbox controller working will be a challenge.

Still, droid has bookmarks sharing, music streaming, app support out the wazoo... this one has splitscreen, sd cards, and everyone has email addresses sharing memory.
 
2012-12-18 11:14:07 AM  

jake_lex: This is exactly why Apple doesn't call what runs on an iPad, iPhone, or iPod Touch "OS X", and even why Google keeps Android on phones and tablets and has another name entirely for what runs on laptop devices, Chrome OS.

You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.


This. All of this.
 
2012-12-18 11:15:45 AM  

xsarien: / It's like they let the accounts receivable guy name it


You mean Randy Thompson?
 
2012-12-18 11:19:00 AM  

Kazan: that was a rumor


What are you talking about?

Metro was the official 'design language' of the tile phone interface, and was widely promoted up until August this year as the tile interface for W8. Then MS ran into trademark trouble with Metro AG, a German company. So they sent out missives to stop using that term and flirted with the term "Modern" for the UI. At some point they then started calling the UI simply "Windows 8", or sometimes "Microsoft Design Language".

So, it's even more confusing than what I said, but there was no "rumor". This happened, there are numerous press releases and memos. It's a marketing clusterfark because even tech reporters are still using every farking term above to refer to the tile interface.
 
2012-12-18 11:19:15 AM  
No Probs here. I run Windows LM. Linux Mint.
 
2012-12-18 11:20:15 AM  
Windows ReTurn for a Refund.



you're welcome
 
2012-12-18 11:33:02 AM  

Kazan: Bacontastesgood: Modern. Forget we ever said Metro.

that was a rumor


Ah, an astroturfer.
 
2012-12-18 11:33:34 AM  

Kazan: Lord Dimwit: Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.

you might want to check your 'facts'


What there is incorrect?
 
2012-12-18 11:34:47 AM  
Though I agree, what do you expect from Dell customers?

narkor: Headline is neckbeard Linux fanboy trolling. Dell doesn't make a Windows RT device.


Have you seen the Dell XPS 10?

Click on the "Tech Specs" tab for Windows RT goodness.
 
2012-12-18 11:36:41 AM  

CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.


All MS really needed to do was figure out how to deploy a x86 tablet with some basic 3D support for the price of a iPad instead of an ultrabook. You could run all your classic games on it and have it run the work related x86 applications as well. A couple SD cards with the games and one with the work stuff. Instead they're deploying a lower end crippleware platform and an upper end platform whose price makes me go "fark it, I'll just buy a laptop."
 
2012-12-18 11:38:06 AM  

Lord Dimwit: Kazan: Lord Dimwit: Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.

you might want to check your 'facts'

What there is incorrect?


Win8 desktop IS what will run on the full-power Surface. It will run the same apps as any other desktop (subject to processing power and all, probably not doing CAD on it). It's basically a laptop.
 
2012-12-18 11:42:34 AM  
 
2012-12-18 11:43:46 AM  

LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Kazan: Lord Dimwit: Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.

you might want to check your 'facts'

What there is incorrect?

Win8 desktop IS what will run on the full-power Surface. It will run the same apps as any other desktop (subject to processing power and all, probably not doing CAD on it). It's basically a laptop.


Right, that's what I said. Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but if your app isn't designed to run without a keyboard, it's going to be more difficult to use on the Surface.
 
2012-12-18 11:53:29 AM  

Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said.


Let's not play fast and loose here. You said that they "aren't going to work well there." You didn't specify that you meant keyboard. Which is a point, but, like... If I got a mini computer, I'd probably get a keyboard.
 
hej
2012-12-18 11:54:09 AM  

namatad: why buy a windows tablet to start with?
between droid and ios, WHY would you use anything else?
esp since the turd wont run windows apps??

LOL


I used one in store and thought it was pretty slick. It has "version 1.0" problems, which is to say they're quite solvable. That said, I agree that the notion of dividing Windows 8 into two incompatible platforms was ill advised.
 
2012-12-18 11:54:49 AM  

Bacontastesgood: Kazan: that was a rumor

What are you talking about?

Metro was the official 'design language' of the tile phone interface, and was widely promoted up until August this year as the tile interface for W8. Then MS ran into trademark trouble with Metro AG, a German company. So they sent out missives to stop using that term and flirted with the term "Modern" for the UI. At some point they then started calling the UI simply "Windows 8", or sometimes "Microsoft Design Language".

So, it's even more confusing than what I said, but there was no "rumor". This happened, there are numerous press releases and memos. It's a marketing clusterfark because even tech reporters are still using every farking term above to refer to the tile interface.


the lawsuit part was a rumor, specifically.

LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Kazan: Lord Dimwit: Microsoft has four app ecosystems: Windows 8 on the Desktop, Windows 8 on the Surface, the Surface RT, and Windows Phone. Yes, I realize that Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but apps not designed to run on the Surface specifically aren't going to work well there.

you might want to check your 'facts'

What there is incorrect?

Win8 desktop IS what will run on the full-power Surface. It will run the same apps as any other desktop (subject to processing power and all, probably not doing CAD on it). It's basically a laptop.


that and a properly written WinRT app should run across all platforms.
 
2012-12-18 11:57:06 AM  

Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said. Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 Desktop are the same thing, but if your app isn't designed to run without a keyboard, it's going to be more difficult to use on the Surface.


Surface has three keyboards to chose from - on screen virtual keyboard, touch cover, type cover.

don't be daft.

hej: That said, I agree that the notion of dividing Windows 8 into two incompatible platforms was ill advised.


they're not incompatible, one is just less capable than the other. But yeah, it will create some confusion.

and i have a sneaking suspicion the reason you don't see an x86->ARM caching JIT is "security reasons."
 
2012-12-18 11:59:25 AM  
What does RT stand for?
 
2012-12-18 12:03:04 PM  

Electrify: What does RT stand for?


For the 10th time
 
2012-12-18 12:08:44 PM  
NEWSFLASH: Ballmer is an idiot.
 
2012-12-18 12:11:38 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: ATM Machine?


I prefer automatic ATM machines that I can put my personal PIN number into.
 
2012-12-18 12:13:31 PM  

LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said.

Let's not play fast and loose here. You said that they "aren't going to work well there." You didn't specify that you meant keyboard. Which is a point, but, like... If I got a mini computer, I'd probably get a keyboard.


Right, except that the Surface is supposed to be all tablet-y. Which is the other problem - they're not differentiating the RT model enough. People are buying the cheaper Surface model and then don't understand why it's not running their Windows 8 apps.

And I still don't understand why the Surface RT has its own app store when it could have just run Windows Phone apps.
 
2012-12-18 12:14:21 PM  
Microsoft is really going all out on the marketing for the tablet. The previous issue of The New Yorker had a promotional cover for it. The current issue has has an inserted booklet of Microsoft hardware products (the number of pictures of hipsters using the products is completely over the top). There's rarely that level of advertisement done with the magazine.
 
2012-12-18 12:19:36 PM  

Kazan: every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?


There's nothing incorrect. The presence of the Metro app will not stop people from attempting to install a retail copy of a prior version they own anymore than any other "a version" of Office included with any of their other operating systems ever did. Did people suddenly stop installing 2007 copies they owned when Windows 7 started shipping with "a version" of 2010? Of course not.
 
2012-12-18 12:35:32 PM  

Linux_Yes: Windows ReTurn for a Refund.



you're welcome


I thought I smelled B.O., shattered dreams and wannabe AW.
 
2012-12-18 12:35:33 PM  

Lord Dimwit: LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said.

Let's not play fast and loose here. You said that they "aren't going to work well there." You didn't specify that you meant keyboard. Which is a point, but, like... If I got a mini computer, I'd probably get a keyboard.

Right, except that the Surface is supposed to be all tablet-y. Which is the other problem - they're not differentiating the RT model enough. People are buying the cheaper Surface model and then don't understand why it's not running their Windows 8 apps.

And I still don't understand why the Surface RT has its own app store when it could have just run Windows Phone apps.


While they could have pushed the name a bit further apart, frankly it's your own fault if you buy something not knowing what it is.
 
2012-12-18 12:39:31 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: Was the 90% native speed the native speed on a pentium vs. Alpha?


The Alpha. After FX!32 had its way with an x86 binary, it ran about 10% slower than a native Alpha binary under NT4 or NT5β. But since the Alpha had about twice the clock speed of our x86 workstations, the overhead was worth it when a native Alpha binary wasn't available.
 
2012-12-18 12:39:53 PM  

LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said.

Let's not play fast and loose here. You said that they "aren't going to work well there." You didn't specify that you meant keyboard. Which is a point, but, like... If I got a mini computer, I'd probably get a keyboard.

Right, except that the Surface is supposed to be all tablet-y. Which is the other problem - they're not differentiating the RT model enough. People are buying the cheaper Surface model and then don't understand why it's not running their Windows 8 apps.

And I still don't understand why the Surface RT has its own app store when it could have just run Windows Phone apps.

While they could have pushed the name a bit further apart, frankly it's your own fault if you buy something not knowing what it is.


Regardless of whose fault it is, it's going to be Microsoft who suffers any negative consumer opinion.
 
2012-12-18 12:53:17 PM  
Oh look, I was right, again.

/I can help you, but only if you hire me
 
2012-12-18 12:54:59 PM  

Lord Dimwit: LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: LasersHurt: Lord Dimwit: Right, that's what I said.

Let's not play fast and loose here. You said that they "aren't going to work well there." You didn't specify that you meant keyboard. Which is a point, but, like... If I got a mini computer, I'd probably get a keyboard.

Right, except that the Surface is supposed to be all tablet-y. Which is the other problem - they're not differentiating the RT model enough. People are buying the cheaper Surface model and then don't understand why it's not running their Windows 8 apps.

And I still don't understand why the Surface RT has its own app store when it could have just run Windows Phone apps.

While they could have pushed the name a bit further apart, frankly it's your own fault if you buy something not knowing what it is.

Regardless of whose fault it is, it's going to be Microsoft who suffers any negative consumer opinion.


In my opinion, RT is a stopgap. The price of something that runs Windows proper is higher now, but it will come down in just a few years (well within Windows 8's lifespan) to the point where I think RT may be intentionally squeezed out. For now, there's a version that fills that low-price tablet niche.

I could be dead wrong, of course.
 
2012-12-18 01:19:23 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?

There's nothing incorrect. The presence of the Metro app will not stop people from attempting to install a retail copy of a prior version they own anymore than any other "a version" of Office included with any of their other operating systems ever did. Did people suddenly stop installing 2007 copies they owned when Windows 7 started shipping with "a version" of 2010? Of course not.


how are they going to manage that without a DVD drive?
 
2012-12-18 01:38:23 PM  
toastytech.com

Miss me yet?
 
2012-12-18 01:49:37 PM  

moel: ebamit: It does everything I need, and is the first tablet that had a prayer of replacing my laptop on a short business trip - thanks to the keyboard cover and Office.

You got a special licence for that? Cos if you look at your box, your breaking the terms of your licence agreement in a big way....


What on earth are you talking about?
 
2012-12-18 01:51:50 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?

There's nothing incorrect. The presence of the Metro app will not stop people from attempting to install a retail copy of a prior version they own anymore than any other "a version" of Office included with any of their other operating systems ever did. Did people suddenly stop installing 2007 copies they owned when Windows 7 started shipping with "a version" of 2010? Of course not.

how are they going to manage that without a DVD drive?


I don't see people trying to install osx software on iPads. Not sure where this thought process of installing PC versions of apps onto a tablet OS version comes from.
 
2012-12-18 01:53:07 PM  

A Terrible Human: Well at least Windows 7 is still good.


But will Microsoft continue to support it until they de-crapify their OS by releasing Windows 9 ?
 
2012-12-18 02:00:57 PM  

red5ish: A Terrible Human: Well at least Windows 7 is still good.

But will Microsoft continue to support it until they de-crapify their OS by releasing Windows 9 ?


They supported XP, with security updates at least, through the Vista debacle. MS knows not to piss off the enterprise guys.
 
2012-12-18 02:17:01 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: every Surface RT has a version of office preloaded. can we stop with this incorrect talking point?

There's nothing incorrect. The presence of the Metro app will not stop people from attempting to install a retail copy of a prior version they own anymore than any other "a version" of Office included with any of their other operating systems ever did. Did people suddenly stop installing 2007 copies they owned when Windows 7 started shipping with "a version" of 2010? Of course not.

how are they going to manage that without a DVD drive?


My work laptop doesn't have a DVD drive on it and I've got the entire Adobe Creative Suite 6 installed on it. I don't think there are that many apps out there today that you can't either buy via download. For my home computer, I get nearly all of my games via Steam as well. Hell, even if you have bought a boxed copy on disk you can usually download a trial of the app from the developer's website and then enter in the product key on the disk in order to activate the full app.
 
2012-12-18 02:18:32 PM  
I bought a Surface, and I like it. I do actual work on it, and it comes with Excel and Word and PowerPoint installed. When I bought it, the little dork selling it to me went out of his way to let me know that this was a tablet and it couldn't install regular apps, but you had to use the app store.

Cool, got it.

Then he tried to up sell the extended warranty by telling me it came with none (lie, 1 year factory) and when I asked him if I could mount a network drive he had no clue. So I can see how some folks would get confused.
 
2012-12-18 02:29:16 PM  

ha-ha-guy: red5ish: A Terrible Human: Well at least Windows 7 is still good.

But will Microsoft continue to support it until they de-crapify their OS by releasing Windows 9 ?

They supported XP, with security updates at least, through the Vista debacle. MS knows not to piss off the enterprise guys.


They still do, XP support doesn't end until 2014.
 
2012-12-18 02:29:55 PM  

Kazan: how are they going to manage that without a DVD drive?


What is this... I don't even...

I haven't used a DVD of Office in nearly a decade at this point. And the only reason I used it then was to drop the MSIs from the DVD on the network. My wife has two laptops, a netbook and an iMac, that don't have optical drives yet they both run various software suites from Office to Adobe.

It's not rocket science.

olapbill: Not sure where this thought process of installing PC versions of apps onto a tablet OS version comes from.


Gee, I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Apple doesn't call its tablet OS "OS X". Or the fact that Apple isn't running around claiming that one of their new OS's big benefits is that it's the same on both the tablet and the PC.

You know. Exactly the things TFA is about.
 
2012-12-18 02:30:09 PM  

xsarien: jake_lex: This is exactly why Apple doesn't call what runs on an iPad, iPhone, or iPod Touch "OS X", and even why Google keeps Android on phones and tablets and has another name entirely for what runs on laptop devices, Chrome OS.

You'd think Microsoft would have realized that.

This. All of this.


Steve Jobs did call the iPhone's OS "OS X" when it was originally announced, but at the time OS X for Macs was always called Mac OS X. The fact Microsoft feels they need to put the Windows brand on everything reeks of desperation. Likewise they're used the Xbox brand to replace the Zune brand regardless of whether product/service runs on/with an Xbox 360. Microsoft seems unsure that it can successfully promote new brands.
 
2012-12-18 02:32:54 PM  

terminalx: Office actually runs on the surface with no network connection I am in airplane mode and word opens like it should.

If you move the recovery partition to a USB drive you have about 21 GB available. You can add a mini SD card to get more space but can't save apps to it, that could change the OS is barely 2 Months old.


A couple of things to note:

The version of Office 2013 on the Win RT computers is fully functional except for some things like Macros, but it does have one big thing missing for business users: Outlook. You can deal with email and appointments via the Mail and Calendar Metro apps, but they only handle basic functions and don't do all of the advanced stuff that Outlook does.

The MicroSD card slot is seen as a removable device by Win RT, so it requires some hackery in order to get the card added to the libraries that are used by the system for media. Because of this, the Metro apps for music, videos, and photos ignore the SD card by default, which makes the slot useless for users that don't have the tech savvy needed to trick the Metro apps into seeing the SD card.

I have a Surface that I'm using for a project at work, and despite the hardware being excellent, the OS is a bit of a hot mess. A lot of the Metro apps are noticeably worse than their Android and iOS counterparts (Kindle and Comixology are terrible ports), even more apps are missing (HBO Go, TiVo, Amazon Instant Video are some biggies that I use). There some some definite advantages to WIn RT (multi-user capability and having a full desktop for example), but the advantages are right now outweighed by some serious issues with the OS and app ecosystem.
 
2012-12-18 02:34:57 PM  

Rent Party: I bought a Surface, and I like it. I do actual work on it, and it comes with Excel and Word and PowerPoint installed. When I bought it, the little dork selling it to me went out of his way to let me know that this was a tablet and it couldn't install regular apps, but you had to use the app store.


Again....you missed it last time, I hope you've got some sort of special dispensation from MS for that...because you are violating the terms of the licence agreement of RT Office 'Student' edition, that you have in a BIG WAY
 
2012-12-18 02:45:37 PM  
Kazan the shameless assface the lawsuit part was a rumor, specifically.

I never said anything about a lawsuit. This is what I wrote you jag:

illegal.tender: Kazan: Bacontastesgood: Modern. Forget we ever said Metro.

that was a rumor

Ah, an astroturfer.


You were right, he is an astroturfer. What a joke.
 
2012-12-18 02:46:37 PM  
It should be obvious to anyone that Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 run Windows applications, and Windows RT does not run Windows applications. Who wouldn't understand that?
 
2012-12-18 02:47:23 PM  

moel: Rent Party: I bought a Surface, and I like it. I do actual work on it, and it comes with Excel and Word and PowerPoint installed. When I bought it, the little dork selling it to me went out of his way to let me know that this was a tablet and it couldn't install regular apps, but you had to use the app store.

Again....you missed it last time, I hope you've got some sort of special dispensation from MS for that...because you are violating the terms of the licence agreement of RT Office 'Student' edition, that you have in a BIG WAY


"As sold, Office Home & Student 2013 RT Preview and the final edition are not designed for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities. However, organizations who purchase commercial use rights or have a commercial license to Office 2013 suites can use Office Home & Student 2013 RT for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities.."
 
2012-12-18 02:49:42 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: how are they going to manage that without a DVD drive?

What is this... I don't even...

I haven't used a DVD of Office in nearly a decade at this point. And the only reason I used it then was to drop the MSIs from the DVD on the network. My wife has two laptops, a netbook and an iMac, that don't have optical drives yet they both run various software suites from Office to Adobe.

It's not rocket science.

olapbill: Not sure where this thought process of installing PC versions of apps onto a tablet OS version comes from.

Gee, I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Apple doesn't call its tablet OS "OS X". Or the fact that Apple isn't running around claiming that one of their new OS's big benefits is that it's the same on both the tablet and the PC.

You know. Exactly the things TFA is about.


stop considering yourself an average user. You're not the average user. anyone who knows what an MSI file is most certainly does NOT qualify as an average user.

This is a problem we have around here sometimes - software engineers going "but i X" and try to use that to say the average user could do that.


Bacontastesgood: ...


if you want to fling bullshiat, go to a cattle pen.
 
2012-12-18 02:49:50 PM  
I love going into the Microsoft Store at the Mall of America. There are never any people in there, and the sales folks are surly and uncooperative and don't bother to talk to anyone. It's the quietest spot in the whole mall.

By comparison, the Apple Store is pure hell. It's always packed, and the sales people are always trying to be helpful and talk to you about what you're looking for. Ughh... what rude bastards.
 
2012-12-18 02:50:04 PM  
I told Ballmer the same thing. His response? "Who are you and how did you get in here?"

Then burly men dragged me away. That guy don't listen to nobody, man.
 
2012-12-18 02:53:29 PM  

The Larch: I love going into the Microsoft Store at the Mall of America. There are never any people in there, and the sales folks are surly and uncooperative and don't bother to talk to anyone. It's the quietest spot in the whole mall.

By comparison, the Apple Store is pure hell. It's always packed, and the sales people are always trying to be helpful and talk to you about what you're looking for. Ughh... what rude bastards.


I've got a special color picked out for your posts moving forward. Derp purple.
 
2012-12-18 02:54:14 PM  

The Larch: the sales folks are surly and uncooperative and don't bother to talk to anyone.


really? maybe i should report that.


no. wait. i don't need to report bullshiat up the chain.
 
2012-12-18 02:57:39 PM  

Lord Dimwit: And I still don't understand why the Surface RT has its own app store when it could have just run Windows Phone apps.


Don't worry. I'm sure they'll get it right next time, when they come out with a whole new OS in two years that makes both Windows RT and Windows Phone obsolete, and all of the applications and devices you currently own worthless.
 
2012-12-18 02:58:38 PM  

moel: Rent Party: I bought a Surface, and I like it. I do actual work on it, and it comes with Excel and Word and PowerPoint installed. When I bought it, the little dork selling it to me went out of his way to let me know that this was a tablet and it couldn't install regular apps, but you had to use the app store.

Again....you missed it last time, I hope you've got some sort of special dispensation from MS for that...because you are violating the terms of the licence agreement of RT Office 'Student' edition, that you have in a BIG WAY


I'm typing this from my Surface right now. In the background I have one of my Excel spreadsheets open. On top of that it has the "About" pane up.

What it tells me is that you are categorically wrong. It is a fully activated version of Office 13 RT Preview, which is to say, still a beta and subject to updates. Further, any commercial use (that is, bought and paid for by my company) of any Microsoft product requires commercial licensing. That doesn't mean that my Surface, which I bought for me, can't be used to do work on. This is my device, not my commercial employer's device.
 
2012-12-18 03:01:36 PM  

olapbill: moel: Rent Party: I bought a Surface, and I like it. I do actual work on it, and it comes with Excel and Word and PowerPoint installed. When I bought it, the little dork selling it to me went out of his way to let me know that this was a tablet and it couldn't install regular apps, but you had to use the app store.

Again....you missed it last time, I hope you've got some sort of special dispensation from MS for that...because you are violating the terms of the licence agreement of RT Office 'Student' edition, that you have in a BIG WAY

"As sold, Office Home & Student 2013 RT Preview and the final edition are not designed for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities. However, organizations who purchase commercial use rights or have a commercial license to Office 2013 suites can use Office Home & Student 2013 RT for commercial, nonprofit, or revenue-generating activities.."


And fortunately, my commercial employer has fully licensed versions of MS Office available for our use at work.

Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

I'm just waiting for the price of the advance keyboards to come down, then I'm going to write my novel on it.
 
2012-12-18 03:02:59 PM  

Kazan: This is a problem we have around here sometimes - software engineers going "but i X" and try to use that to say the average user could do that.


Is this a good time to point out that your average user never sees the .msi at the end and just sees it displayed as an executable icon like all the others they're used to?

Or would it be an even better time to point out for the most part you can download this shiat when you buy it? Or are we suddenly pretending that people don't know how downloadable software purchases work now?

For somebody taking great pains to appear to be a Microsoft shill, you don't seem to know much about their products.

You're being stupid. People will attempt to install Office, Adobe products, autocad (although that will never work right even on the professional version) and you know it and you know it's because it's called "Windows" and your desperate attempts to ignore this basic reality of how users view their devices makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

Stop pretending you're stupid so you can act like you don't get the point hovering right in front of your face. It's annoying.
 
2012-12-18 03:03:33 PM  

Kazan: The Larch: the sales folks are surly and uncooperative and don't bother to talk to anyone.

really? maybe i should report that.

no. wait. i don't need to report bullshiat up the chain.


Ha! You found me out. I've never been in the Microsoft Store at the Mall of America, and in fact I've never even met anyone who has ever had a reason to go in there. The sales people might be the nicest folks in the world, but I wouldn't know. I just know they look really bored.
 
2012-12-18 03:07:21 PM  

Kazan: This is a problem we have around here sometimes - software engineers going "but i X" and try to use that to say the average user could do that.


You've hit the nail on the head exactly. Software engineers are saying "but I can tell the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT", and they assume that the regular user has any idea what the differences are.

And since regular people often will install software and then ask their friends to install software for them, regular people are going to be very frustrated when they buy a computer with a screen and a keyboard and Microsoft Windows and their friend says "well, you can't install that software, because it's the wrong kind of Windows".
 
2012-12-18 03:08:21 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Is this a good time to point out that your average user never sees the .msi at the end and just sees it displayed as an executable icon like all the others they're used to?

Or would it be an even better time to point out for the most part you can download this shiat when you buy it? Or are we suddenly pretending that people don't know how downloadable software purchases work now?



i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: For somebody taking great pains to appear to be a Microsoft shill, you don't seem to know much about their products.


calling out bullshiat is hardly shilling. but i thought everyone on fark already knew that i work for MS. i normally caveat the fark out of my posts. I work in server division. While I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed in this thread, there has also been a lot of outright bullshiat.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: You're being stupid. People will attempt to install Office, Adobe products, autocad (although that will never work right even on the professional version) and you know it and you know it's because it's called "Windows" and your desperate attempts to ignore this basic reality of how users view their devices makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


"Disagrees with Vegan Meat Popsicles unsupported assertion" is not the basis upon which we measure whether or not someone is stupid. Don't be abusive in your arguments, it does your argument no service.

I agreed that the name may be confusing, however I don't think people will try to install Office on the Surface RT - especially since it comes preinstalled.

Adobe products, maybe. However it would just tell them no

autocad? bullshiat. Nobody who can use autocad is stupid enough to not understand the Windows RT isn't windowsa or) try to install autocad on a tablet.


I agree with the general premise that the naming is subpar and potentially confusing. However some of the software you're trotting out that people would install.. yeah no.


Vegan Meat Popsicle: Stop pretending you're stupid so you can act like you don't get the point hovering right in front of your face. It's annoying.


Stop pretending that "disagrees with something VMP said" is the basis to call someone else stupid. stop being abusive if your arguments.
 
2012-12-18 03:08:46 PM  

The Larch: Kazan: This is a problem we have around here sometimes - software engineers going "but i X" and try to use that to say the average user could do that.

You've hit the nail on the head exactly. Software engineers are saying "but I can tell the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT", and they assume that the regular user has any idea what the differences are.

And since regular people often will install software and then ask their friends to install software for them, regular people are going to be very frustrated when they buy a computer with a screen and a keyboard and Microsoft Windows and their friend says "well, you can't install that software, because it's the wrong kind of Windows".


FTFM
 
2012-12-18 03:10:09 PM  

Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.


Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.
 
2012-12-18 03:11:03 PM  

The Larch: Kazan: This is a problem we have around here sometimes - software engineers going "but i X" and try to use that to say the average user could do that.

You've hit the nail on the head exactly. Software engineers are saying "but I can tell the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT", and they assume that the regular user has any idea what the differences are.

And since regular people often will install software and then ask their friends to install software for them, regular people are going to be very frustrated when they buy a computer with a screen and a keyboard and Microsoft Windows and their friend says "well, you can't install that software, because it's the wrong kind of Windows".


See everyone - this is how you make your point without loading a bunch of bullshiat around it like some of the others of you are doing. I agree with that assessment. We have two major branding for consumer products though - Xbox and Windows. Xbox doesn't make sense, and it is a Windows product. So Windows has to go in the name somewhere from a branding standpoint.

How would you name it better? I certainly haven't come up with a better idea to suggest.

that said.. is there a huge problem with people buying iPads and being all confused that they cannot run OS/X desktop apps on them?
 
2012-12-18 03:12:30 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.


hmm.. i haven't tried it. *fires up my surface*
 
2012-12-18 03:16:11 PM  
fark perf doesn't seem too bad on my surface in this thread
 
2012-12-18 03:16:38 PM  
Fair enough..I retract my previous statement....

It's still a piece of ill conceived shiate though...

/Typing this on my 2010 Macbook Pro which still has sufficient battery to kick the arse off next years surface pro so really getting a kick etc..
 
2012-12-18 03:19:28 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Is this a good time to point out that your average user never sees the .msi at the end and just sees it displayed as an executable icon like all the others they're used to?

Or would it be an even better time to point out for the most part you can download this shiat when you buy it? Or are we suddenly pretending that people don't know how downloadable software purchases work now?


i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


I can't imagine going to a store and buying a box of anything software related. The last thing I got in a box was Propellerhead Reason, and that only because it came with a USB key. I bought Office for my Macs on download.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:20 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Okay, we're done now. You've officially conclusively proven you're completely full of shiat.

I've made sure to farkie you so in the future I don't make the mistake of thinking you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:43 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.


It worked fine back then. The only thing I've found to be really sluggish is HTTP Progressive downloads for video and audio. That just kind of chugs.

I bought an RT64, which came with the touch keyboard. And while it's better than I thought it would be, so that is the general reason why I don't use it for typing intensive applications.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:52 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome. Not to mention device driver software like network printing and scanning software, which is a pet peeve of mine with the Surface as well, my HP OfficeJet 8600 will not network print or scan with the Surface AT ALL, but it works fine out of the box with a Windows 8 computer that I have. My wife's iPad, on the other hand, prints to it with no issues using AirPrint. I find it mind boggling that Microsoft created a tablet OS and didn't build in out of the box support for common networked printers like the OfficeJet 8500/8600 series, especially when they ARE supported by Win 8. That was a huge miss.
 
2012-12-18 03:26:59 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome.


Actually, yea, including Office. You can download the trial and then unlock it.

The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".

Amazing....
 
2012-12-18 03:27:44 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.

hmm.. i haven't tried it. *fires up my surface*


Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.
 
2012-12-18 03:29:41 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Okay, we're done now. You've officially conclusively proven you're completely full of shiat.

I've made sure to farkie you so in the future I don't make the mistake of thinking you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about.


You're telling me what my experience in life is?

you're using the existence of an e-store as evidence about the "typical user"


do you even know how arguments work? do you know what constitutes evidence?

the only person here completely full of shiat, is you.

Mad_Radhu: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome. Not to mention device driver software like network printing and scanning software, which is a pet peeve of mine with the Surface as well, my HP OfficeJet 8600 will not network print or scan with the Surface AT ALL, but it works fine out of the box with a Windows 8 computer that I have. My wife's iPad, on the other hand, prints to it with no issues using AirPrint. I find it mind boggling that Microsoft created a tablet OS and didn't build in out of the box support for common networked printers like the OfficeJet 8500/8600 series, especially when they ARE supported by Win 8. That was a huge miss.


again. this is a person making the point correction. Vegan Meat Popsicle watch and learn.

Mad_Radhu: i agree.
 
2012-12-18 03:30:59 PM  

Kazan: making the point correctioncorrectly.


FTFM
 
2012-12-18 03:31:54 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.

hmm.. i haven't tried it. *fires up my surface*

Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.


I'm pretty sure that it will be rife with bugs, as it's a first gen MS product. I knew that when I went in. I'm waiting for the patches and updates to come out, more for the curiosity of what was prioritized over what wasn't.

I do Fark unpaginated anyway, but I haven't surfed a lot with the Surface (hey!) yet.
 
2012-12-18 03:32:19 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.


well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!
 
2012-12-18 03:33:01 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Mad_Radhu: Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome.

Actually, yea, including Office. You can download the trial and then unlock it.

The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".

Amazing....


Also, based on the preview that I used on my regular PCs, Microsoft is really designing Office 2013 for digital download, to the point where it installs enough of itself to get you up and running at first, and then it adds the rest of the app in the background while you get started with it. Even they are petty much admitting that the day of buying boxed software at a store is over.
 
2012-12-18 03:34:20 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".


maybe you and i have a little different definition of 'typical user' in the context of surface/home computing devices.

i'm not talking about corporate users.
 
2012-12-18 03:36:07 PM  

CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.


I can see the point of it, they are just trying to control the environment and user experience like apple does/did. "You can only run the apps that we know will work well in this configuration."
If the first tablets get eaten alive by viruses or crashing apps, the Windows 8 tablets would be a non-starter.
/but I would hope that the RT tablets will be majorly reduced in price when the 8 tablets are released
//I won't hold my breath for that, they'll probably just add $200 to the 8 tablets.
 
2012-12-18 03:43:01 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.

well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!



It's weird because the "desktop" version of IE is rock solid, but it is hard as hell to run of a touchscreen. I wonder if it has to do with the Metro apps running in their own environment on top of the underlying Windows OS, and limiting the system resources they have access to, so they run out of RAM faster. As far as I understand it, you are running the Metro apps in their own runtime, so it is almost like they are running in a VM which is going to limit their resources.
 
2012-12-18 03:48:27 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Microsoft is really designing Office 2013 for digital download


They've been going that way with everything. Look at the way Windows 7 is designed as in-place upgradeable simply by "unlocking" it through their "Anytime Upgrades" system.

Microsoft offers a lot through digital download via DigitalRiver and while it's hardly along the lines of Apple iTunes popularity, it's definitely something many people are aware of. You can go on Microsoft's own forums and find example of people who are using it who have questions.

Given the popularity of small, slim netbooks it's beyond absurd to sit and argue that people aren't relatively comfortable at this point with

Kazan: maybe you and i have a little different definition of 'typical user' in the context of surface/home computing devices.

i'm not talking about corporate users.


I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?
 
2012-12-18 03:51:07 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.

well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!



Yeah, there are some very weird design decisions in Win RT. The settings are just odd for example. All of the restore options are buried down in the General area, and in the Metro setting panel there is no quick option to set the screen time out and sleep settings from their default, which I think was something lime 1 min so the tablet would go to sleep if you were reading a long blog post. Instead, I had to go to the Desktop and then dig down into the power settings in order to change the sleep behavior. I don't understand how that never came up in user testing.

Also, if they were planning to sell keyboard covers, they should have integrated a Caps Lock notification into the OS itself. I know most laptops do this via 3rd party software, but since the Surface keyboard cover lacks an LED because it is so thin, they should have made doubly sure that the OS is going to helpfully warn you when you accidentally hit it.

Again, all this will probably be fixed in a few revisions, but it is so odd that such nice hardware is paired with software that has such obvious usability issues.
 
2012-12-18 03:52:35 PM  

SteakMan: CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.

I can see the point of it, they are just trying to control the environment and user experience like apple does/did. "You can only run the apps that we know will work well in this configuration."
If the first tablets get eaten alive by viruses or crashing apps, the Windows 8 tablets would be a non-starter.
/but I would hope that the RT tablets will be majorly reduced in price when the 8 tablets are released
//I won't hold my breath for that, they'll probably just add $200 to the 8 tablets.


This is anecdotal, but I've never had a spyware or virus problem on 7. Considering 8 is more or less the same thing with some optimization and a redone GUI, I don't think it would have been that big of an issue anyway.

Besides, as iOS and Android grow they're going to start getting malware targeting them as well.
 
2012-12-18 03:54:58 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?


I thought be oblivious was one of the requirements to work there.
 
2012-12-18 04:05:06 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?


because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

why is it so hard for you to understand that different user demographics have different behavioral trends and different requirements and engage in different activities?


Mad_Radhu: Yeah, there are some very weird design decisions in Win RT. The settings are just odd for example. All of the restore options are buried down in the General area, and in the Metro setting panel there is no quick option to set the screen time out and sleep settings from their default, which I think was something lime 1 min so the tablet would go to sleep if you were reading a long blog post. Instead, I had to go to the Desktop and then dig down into the power settings in order to change the sleep behavior. I don't understand how that never came up in user testing.


it might have. they just probably didn't have the time to write and test an entirely metro-ized control panel.

Mad_Radhu: Also, if they were planning to sell keyboard covers, they should have integrated a Caps Lock notification into the OS itself. I know most laptops do this via 3rd party software, but since the Surface keyboard cover lacks an LED because it is so thin, they should have made doubly sure that the OS is going to helpfully warn you when you accidentally hit it.


well it does (and has for a while) warned about this in password input, etc. my gaming laptop also doesn't ahve a LED to indicate capslock for some reason and that is midly annoying. they should have integrated a few status LEDs into the device along the bottom - next to the windows logo/button.
 
2012-12-18 04:06:09 PM  

gerbilpox:
Then, of course, there was Windows NT, which looked like regular Windows but was incompatible with a lot of Windows desktop software.


By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.
 
2012-12-18 04:11:50 PM  

Dwedit: By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.


It isn't that the NT4 was really more forgiving than NT3.51, it was that more programs used documented APIs by that point as opposed to thumping hardware directly, which results in a General Protection Fault.
 
2012-12-18 04:11:57 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?

because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

why is it so hard for you to understand that different user demographics have different behavioral trends and different requirements and engage in different activities?


oh.. to expand on this. the user set you're talking about is the target demographic of Surface Pro.


Surface RT
Windows RT (32bit),
Metro-style apps,
bundled desktop apps only.

32GB or 64GB eMMC storage.
1366x768 5-point multitouch displace. Capacitive pen supported.
NVIDIA Tegra 3 T30
2GB RAM
802.11a/b/g/n and Bluetooth 4
Two 720p cameras (front and rear facing)
USB 2.0, microSDXC, headset jack, microHDMI, cover/keyboard port
Ambient light sensor, accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass
31.5 Wh battery, 24W power supply

vs

Surface Pro
Windows 8 Pro (64bit)
Metro style apps,
all desktop apps

64GB or 126GB variants
1920x1080 10 point multitouch, includes pen
Intel Core i5 (Ivy Bridge) w/ Intel HD Graphics 4000
4GB RAM
802.11a/b/g/n and Bluetooth 4
TWo 720p HD cameras
USB 3, microSDXC, headset jack, mini Displayport, cover port
Ambient light sensor, accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass
42 Wh battery, 48 W power supply
 
2012-12-18 04:13:58 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.
 
2012-12-18 04:15:51 PM  

Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.


and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].
 
2012-12-18 04:16:30 PM  

Dinjiin: Dwedit: By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.

It isn't that the NT4 was really more forgiving than NT3.51, it was that more programs used documented APIs by that point as opposed to thumping hardware directly, which results in a General Protection Fault.


True, and it has been a few years but I have even seen programs like Firefox running on NT 3.51.
 
2012-12-18 04:19:11 PM  

Kazan: and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method.


I don't know anyone who owns a horse either but what does that prove?
 
2012-12-18 04:21:04 PM  

Kazan: because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.


Yea. Except. We're not. Your own stupid community forums have plenty of examples of students and regular people asking questions about digital river downloads and I don't know why you think the fact that my employees are part of a corporation is relevant. They're buying and downloading the damn software to use at home. They're not technical people. We have less than 60 people in total between engineering and IT and I seriously doubt more than a half dozen of them have bothered with the program, so we're talking about over 200 people in account, customer service, sales... you know... normal non-technical jobs like lots of people have. Or does simply having a job somehow mean you understand the mysterious world of "downloading software"?

You're full of shiat, you know it and you're trying to set up a backpedal. Digital downloads and disc-less installs are not some arcane magics confusing people; normal people will attempt to download and install standard Windows applications they use - from Microsoft and otherwise - on the RT tablet because as far as they know it's just Windows, and it won't work.

Microsoft. Made. A. Dumb. Decision. This naming will confuse some people. I don't know how many, I don't care, but Clarke is right. It will cause confusion. We are now done here. Goodbye.
 
2012-12-18 04:21:23 PM  

Kazan: Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.

and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].


Actually, I work for AT&T and worked for Chase Manhattan in the past, and both companies have corporate perks websites that give employees the option to buy the digital download for 9.99, and many non technical users do buy it.

I hear non technical guys in the office talking about downloading torrents, ripping cds, installing hds in their xboxes, because some things that used to be considered technical are now common place.

If apple users, which are the LCD of tech savvy, can use an app store, then the rest of world can gasp, download a software package.
 
2012-12-18 04:21:31 PM  

Hand Banana: True, and it has been a few years but I have even seen programs like Firefox running on NT 3.51.


FF 2.0.0.20 was the last version I could get to run under 3.51. Newer versions of FF make use of Win32 calls that are only in NT4 and newer.

images16.fotki.com
 
2012-12-18 04:21:49 PM  

Hand Banana: Kazan: and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method.

I don't know anyone who owns a horse either but what does that prove?


you need to get out of the city a little more?
 
2012-12-18 05:49:04 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

Yea. Except. We're not. Your own stupid community forums have plenty of examples of students and regular people asking questions about digital river downloads and I don't know why you think the fact that my employees are part of a corporation is relevant. They're buying and downloading the damn software to use at home. They're not technical people. We have less than 60 people in total between engineering and IT and I seriously doubt more than a half dozen of them have bothered with the program, so we're talking about over 200 people in account, customer service, sales... you know... normal non-technical jobs like lots of people have. Or does simply having a job somehow mean you understand the mysterious world of "downloading software"?

You're full of shiat, you know it and you're trying to set up a backpedal. Digital downloads and disc-less installs are not some arcane magics confusing people; normal people will attempt to download and install standard Windows applications they use - from Microsoft and otherwise - on the RT tablet because as far as they know it's just Windows, and it won't work.

Microsoft. Made. A. Dumb. Decision. This naming will confuse some people. I don't know how many, I don't care, but Clarke is right. It will cause confusion. We are now done here. Goodbye.


you have even less justification to make any statement you've made (Save the one on naming that we agree on) than I do. stop acting like you're the Grand Wizard of the Internet and all that is True.

theflatline: Kazan: Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.

and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].

Actually, I work for AT&T and worked for Chase Manhattan in the past, and both companies have corporate perks websites that give employees the option to buy the digital download for 9.99, and many non technical users do buy it.

I hear non technical guys in the office talking about downloading torrents, ripping cds, installing hds in their xboxes, because some things that used to be considered technical are now common place.

If apple users, which are the LCD of tech savvy, can use an app store, then the rest of world can gasp, download a software package.


it wasn't a discussion of can it was a discussion of do. I know people do those things, but the type of people who are going to be confused by the Surface name for more than 20 seconds, in my experience, tend to not do those things. Anyone who knows enough to do those things will understand "it's windows branded, but it is a different version that cannot run your normal desktop apps".


Can it be confusing? absolutely
Will it be confusing to your user who knows how to download? Probably not
Will it be confusing to my parents? absolutely.
 
2012-12-18 07:04:31 PM  

Kazan: it wasn't a discussion of can it was a discussion of do. I know people do those things, but the type of people who are going to be confused by the Surface name for more than 20 seconds, in my experience, tend to not do those things. Anyone who knows enough to do those things will understand "it's windows branded, but it is a different version that cannot run your normal desktop apps".


Can it be confusing? absolutely
Will it be confusing to your user who knows how to download? Probably not
Will it be confusing to my parents? absolutely.


You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.
 
2012-12-18 07:06:51 PM  

0100010: You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.


your link agrees with exactly what i said, dude. The RT in Windows RT and WinRT both sand for the same thing Runtime.

/we just call it woa internally
//and are annoyed by WoA-only build breaks.
 
2012-12-18 07:13:49 PM  

Kazan: you have even less justification to make any statement you've made (Save the one on naming that we agree on) than I do. stop acting like you're the Grand Wizard of the Internet and all that is True.


Aw, now you're getting evasive and making increasingly generic statements about my alleged ignorance. How cute. Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.

I'll be sure to assign the appropriate weight to your recommendation keeping in mind that you seem to think it's still 1997 and people have barely figured out how to get their CD-ROM drives to work. on them thar new-fangled Winders Ninety5 machines.

By the way, your new server OS continues to blow chunks. Figure out how to make more of your own services run properly in Core so I don't have to load up that godforsaken disaster you call an interface and can just use remote powershell to manage everything,
 
2012-12-18 07:22:09 PM  

Kazan: 0100010: You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.

your link agrees with exactly what i said, dude. The RT in Windows RT and WinRT both sand for the same thing Runtime.

/we just call it woa internally
//and are annoyed by WoA-only build breaks.


I'd love to see where that has been officially stated. On top of that, WinRT will be on the Surface Pro and is already in Windows 8. Sure, you can guess that since WinRT pretty much is Metro, we can imply that they're taking the RT from it, but saying that Windows RT means Windows Runtime makes no sense. There's no such thing as Runtime and if we go the other way, that would equally imply WinRT to mean Windows Runtime as well. If anything, the name would have to be Windows WinRT to actually come close to validity, though it sounds almost as ridiculous as "Built on NT technology".
 
2012-12-18 07:31:14 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Aw, now you're getting evasive and making increasingly generic statements about my alleged ignorance. How cute. Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.

I'll be sure to assign the appropriate weight to your recommendation keeping in mind that you seem to think it's still 1997 and people have barely figured out how to get their CD-ROM drives to work. on them thar new-fangled Winders Ninety5 machines.


You just have a fundamental issue understanding that the people you're talking about that will download stuff, etc are smart enough to not be confused by RT for more than 20 seconds.  The ones that would seriously be confused by it are the ones that don't have those skills.    You're trying to construct a frankenuser that doesn't exist, and use it to flog in an argument.
 
 

Vegan Meat Popsicle: By the way, your new server OS continues to blow chunks. Figure out how to make more of your own services run properly in Core so I don't have to load up that godforsaken disaster you call an interface and can just use remote powershell to manage everything,



The part of server that I work on is completely managable via remote powershell just fine.  I do it all the time.
 

0100010: I'd love to see where that has been officially stated. On top of that, WinRT will be on the Surface Pro and is already in Windows 8. Sure, you can guess that since WinRT pretty much is Metro, we can imply that they're taking the RT from it, but saying that Windows RT means Windows Runtime makes no sense. There's no such thing as Runtime and if we go the other way, that would equally imply WinRT to mean Windows Runtime as well. If anything, the name would have to be Windows WinRT to actually come close to validity, though it sounds almost as ridiculous as "Built on NT technology".



ah.  you're expecting to make sense out of the soup of technical names mixed with Branding names.  there's your problem.
 
2012-12-18 07:52:48 PM  

ongbok: 5 minutes of research into what they were buying and they would have realized that maybe the RT model wasn't what they were looking for and waiting for the Pro model would have been better suited for them.


What Pro model? There is no Pro model.
 
2012-12-18 08:41:31 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.


Dude, just ignore him and move on with your life. Come to think of it, that might be a good idea for everything related to Microsoft from here on out, Xbox excepted.
 
2012-12-18 08:44:06 PM  

Kazan:
and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].


Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?

I don't have any statistics on which sells more, but a regular user would probably choose the non-disk box, given the choice, simply because it's cheaper.
 
2012-12-18 09:18:17 PM  

finnished: Kazan:
and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].

Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?

I don't have any statistics on which sells more, but a regular user would probably choose the non-disk box, given the choice, simply because it's cheaper.


Actually, for new PCs, there is a free version of Office preinstalled that is limited functionality and most end users either go online and upgrade it, or they buy a card in store with a product key that enables the full version. Also, based on how the Office 2013 Preview acts, there is a pretty good chance that next year Microsoft is going to sell a subscription to Office where you pay $5-$10 a month and get to download Office to 3-5 computers you own as long as you keep up the subscription.

I've actually had some good experiences with software via subscription. I had some projects at work where I needed Photoshop and Illustrator to accomplish what I wanted to do, and our best option was to head out to Staples and grab a bunch of 3-month Creative Cloud subscription cards for $100 each on sale, so for $400 now have access to the entire Creative Suite for the next year on up to 2 computers at the same time. It's way cheaper in the short term than us dropping $2600 for the boxed software. Once you factor in upgrade fees, it would probably take 6-7 years to break even with the boxed software.
 
2012-12-18 10:09:58 PM  

finnished: Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?



when did that start? my mom bought Office 2010 and it had a disk...
 
 
i've been using MSDN for years
 
 

nytmare: What Pro model? There is no Pro model.



the one that was announced right along with the RT, but isn't out yet....  the one i've talked about in this thread...
 
2012-12-18 11:24:02 PM  

Kazan: finnished: Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?


when did that start? my mom bought Office 2010 and it had a disk...
 
 
i've been using MSDN for years
 
 
nytmare: What Pro model? There is no Pro model.


the one that was announced right along with the RT, but isn't out yet....  the one i've talked about in this thread...

 
Since 2010 they have sold office boxes with a discount that had no disk, just a key card in the box...
 
 


 
 
2012-12-19 09:18:01 AM  
What Pro model?

Surface Pro is the one with an Intel processor that sucks because it only has a four hour battery life.

Surface is the one with an Arm processor that sucks because you can't add any of the normal Windows software, just that Metro crap.
 
2012-12-19 03:17:14 PM  

BullBearMS: What Pro model?

Surface Pro is the one with an Intel processor that sucks because it only has a four hour battery life.

Surface is the one with an Arm processor that sucks because you can't add any of the normal Windows software, just that Metro crap.


I get the points you're trying to make. I agree with the Pro point. you get laptop battery life out of (suprise) a laptop like architecture .
RT doesn't suck if you bought it for what it does do well. Most office tasks, multimedia. news, web etc. plus strong vpn, (mostly) plug and plan usb device connectivity and upnp devices. That's what I wanted it for. That's what it does.
 
2012-12-20 01:42:12 PM  
Getting here late, but here's basically my take on this:

WinRT was a mistake, but a somewhat necessary one. Intel has now come out with new-generation Atom processors that run fast, run cool, and have good battery life for a tablet. Acer's W510 has one, and can be had for $549, sans keyboard dock. That's pushing into iPad price territory, and offers a unit that can do a LOT more than any other tablet at that price point.

ARM designs are exploding in the performance category, meaning that they could offer a real edge some day for tablet computing. In that case, it's good that Microsoft has an offering. However, it should not be their mainline offering, and that's what they're pushing it as in the tablet space.
 
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