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(C|Net)   Dell: consumers will get confused with Windows RT, call it something else. Ballmer: Nah, you're crazy. Consumers: I'd like to return this defective product, please   (news.cnet.com) divider line 197
    More: Obvious, Windows, reverse transcriptases, Great Satan, Ballmer, Windows Store  
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11203 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Dec 2012 at 12:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-18 03:16:11 PM  
fark perf doesn't seem too bad on my surface in this thread
 
2012-12-18 03:16:38 PM  
Fair enough..I retract my previous statement....

It's still a piece of ill conceived shiate though...

/Typing this on my 2010 Macbook Pro which still has sufficient battery to kick the arse off next years surface pro so really getting a kick etc..
 
2012-12-18 03:19:28 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Is this a good time to point out that your average user never sees the .msi at the end and just sees it displayed as an executable icon like all the others they're used to?

Or would it be an even better time to point out for the most part you can download this shiat when you buy it? Or are we suddenly pretending that people don't know how downloadable software purchases work now?


i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


I can't imagine going to a store and buying a box of anything software related. The last thing I got in a box was Propellerhead Reason, and that only because it came with a USB key. I bought Office for my Macs on download.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:20 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Okay, we're done now. You've officially conclusively proven you're completely full of shiat.

I've made sure to farkie you so in the future I don't make the mistake of thinking you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:43 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.


It worked fine back then. The only thing I've found to be really sluggish is HTTP Progressive downloads for video and audio. That just kind of chugs.

I bought an RT64, which came with the touch keyboard. And while it's better than I thought it would be, so that is the general reason why I don't use it for typing intensive applications.
 
2012-12-18 03:21:52 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome. Not to mention device driver software like network printing and scanning software, which is a pet peeve of mine with the Surface as well, my HP OfficeJet 8600 will not network print or scan with the Surface AT ALL, but it works fine out of the box with a Windows 8 computer that I have. My wife's iPad, on the other hand, prints to it with no issues using AirPrint. I find it mind boggling that Microsoft created a tablet OS and didn't build in out of the box support for common networked printers like the OfficeJet 8500/8600 series, especially when they ARE supported by Win 8. That was a huge miss.
 
2012-12-18 03:26:59 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome.


Actually, yea, including Office. You can download the trial and then unlock it.

The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".

Amazing....
 
2012-12-18 03:27:44 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.

hmm.. i haven't tried it. *fires up my surface*


Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.
 
2012-12-18 03:29:41 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Okay, we're done now. You've officially conclusively proven you're completely full of shiat.

I've made sure to farkie you so in the future I don't make the mistake of thinking you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about.


You're telling me what my experience in life is?

you're using the existence of an e-store as evidence about the "typical user"


do you even know how arguments work? do you know what constitutes evidence?

the only person here completely full of shiat, is you.

Mad_Radhu: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome. Not to mention device driver software like network printing and scanning software, which is a pet peeve of mine with the Surface as well, my HP OfficeJet 8600 will not network print or scan with the Surface AT ALL, but it works fine out of the box with a Windows 8 computer that I have. My wife's iPad, on the other hand, prints to it with no issues using AirPrint. I find it mind boggling that Microsoft created a tablet OS and didn't build in out of the box support for common networked printers like the OfficeJet 8500/8600 series, especially when they ARE supported by Win 8. That was a huge miss.


again. this is a person making the point correction. Vegan Meat Popsicle watch and learn.

Mad_Radhu: i agree.
 
2012-12-18 03:30:59 PM  

Kazan: making the point correctioncorrectly.


FTFM
 
2012-12-18 03:31:54 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Rent Party: Man, Microsoft really did this right. I can buy the Surface, and use the embedded Office product on it to be productive at work, surf Fark, and watch Netflix all at the same time.

Does Fark even work al that well on your Surface? For me, Metro IE10 is really slow to load the comment pages, and long threads with hundreds of comments will cause the browser to crash to the Start Screen. It's to the point now where I can almost tell the browser is getting ready to crash because it start getting sluggish, so I'll kill it manually by swiping down and the restart. It's honestly a crappy experience compared to surfing Fark on a normal Windows computer.

hmm.. i haven't tried it. *fires up my surface*

Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.


I'm pretty sure that it will be rife with bugs, as it's a first gen MS product. I knew that when I went in. I'm waiting for the patches and updates to come out, more for the curiosity of what was prioritized over what wasn't.

I do Fark unpaginated anyway, but I haven't surfed a lot with the Surface (hey!) yet.
 
2012-12-18 03:32:19 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.


well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!
 
2012-12-18 03:33:01 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Mad_Radhu: Maybe not Office, but there is a crap ton of free software that they are used to downloading and running with no issues such as iTunes and Chrome.

Actually, yea, including Office. You can download the trial and then unlock it.

The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".

Amazing....


Also, based on the preview that I used on my regular PCs, Microsoft is really designing Office 2013 for digital download, to the point where it installs enough of itself to get you up and running at first, and then it adds the rest of the app in the background while you get started with it. Even they are petty much admitting that the day of buying boxed software at a store is over.
 
2012-12-18 03:34:20 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: The funniest thing about his wicked lies is that I have nearly 300 users in the very same building I'm in right now who only have access to Office 2010 for home use via download because they bought it through Microsoft Home Use Program.... yet he, an alleged employee of Microsoft, doesn't even know of one person who is a "typical user".


maybe you and i have a little different definition of 'typical user' in the context of surface/home computing devices.

i'm not talking about corporate users.
 
2012-12-18 03:36:07 PM  

CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.


I can see the point of it, they are just trying to control the environment and user experience like apple does/did. "You can only run the apps that we know will work well in this configuration."
If the first tablets get eaten alive by viruses or crashing apps, the Windows 8 tablets would be a non-starter.
/but I would hope that the RT tablets will be majorly reduced in price when the 8 tablets are released
//I won't hold my breath for that, they'll probably just add $200 to the 8 tablets.
 
2012-12-18 03:43:01 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.

well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!



It's weird because the "desktop" version of IE is rock solid, but it is hard as hell to run of a touchscreen. I wonder if it has to do with the Metro apps running in their own environment on top of the underlying Windows OS, and limiting the system resources they have access to, so they run out of RAM faster. As far as I understand it, you are running the Metro apps in their own runtime, so it is almost like they are running in a VM which is going to limit their resources.
 
2012-12-18 03:48:27 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Microsoft is really designing Office 2013 for digital download


They've been going that way with everything. Look at the way Windows 7 is designed as in-place upgradeable simply by "unlocking" it through their "Anytime Upgrades" system.

Microsoft offers a lot through digital download via DigitalRiver and while it's hardly along the lines of Apple iTunes popularity, it's definitely something many people are aware of. You can go on Microsoft's own forums and find example of people who are using it who have questions.

Given the popularity of small, slim netbooks it's beyond absurd to sit and argue that people aren't relatively comfortable at this point with

Kazan: maybe you and i have a little different definition of 'typical user' in the context of surface/home computing devices.

i'm not talking about corporate users.


I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?
 
2012-12-18 03:51:07 PM  

Kazan: Mad_Radhu: Try it on a long thread that isn't paginated, like some of the Newtown discussions. I had to cap my thread length to 200 because it was consistently crashing to the Start Screen. I really see the sluggishness when I zoom in a bit so the thread is just on screen and the sidebars aren't, and you'll see the text pixellate and the browser start really chugging as it redraws the screen. It doesn't happen every time, but over time the browser just seems like it gets slower and slower until it finally just craps out.

well. it is IE afterall.

what do you call a really smart people in one place doing not so smart things?

Microsoft.


/i work here, i know for a fact!



Yeah, there are some very weird design decisions in Win RT. The settings are just odd for example. All of the restore options are buried down in the General area, and in the Metro setting panel there is no quick option to set the screen time out and sleep settings from their default, which I think was something lime 1 min so the tablet would go to sleep if you were reading a long blog post. Instead, I had to go to the Desktop and then dig down into the power settings in order to change the sleep behavior. I don't understand how that never came up in user testing.

Also, if they were planning to sell keyboard covers, they should have integrated a Caps Lock notification into the OS itself. I know most laptops do this via 3rd party software, but since the Surface keyboard cover lacks an LED because it is so thin, they should have made doubly sure that the OS is going to helpfully warn you when you accidentally hit it.

Again, all this will probably be fixed in a few revisions, but it is so odd that such nice hardware is paired with software that has such obvious usability issues.
 
2012-12-18 03:52:35 PM  

SteakMan: CmndrFish: Windows RT shouldn't even exist. You can get very competitive battery life and better performance out of a Clovertrail (the new Atom) processor.

It seriously has no point in existing. Just dump the platform entirely and give everybody who made the mistake of buying a Surface RT a few hundred off of a (hypothetical) Clovertrail Surface or Surface Pro and be done with it.

I can see the point of it, they are just trying to control the environment and user experience like apple does/did. "You can only run the apps that we know will work well in this configuration."
If the first tablets get eaten alive by viruses or crashing apps, the Windows 8 tablets would be a non-starter.
/but I would hope that the RT tablets will be majorly reduced in price when the 8 tablets are released
//I won't hold my breath for that, they'll probably just add $200 to the 8 tablets.


This is anecdotal, but I've never had a spyware or virus problem on 7. Considering 8 is more or less the same thing with some optimization and a redone GUI, I don't think it would have been that big of an issue anyway.

Besides, as iOS and Android grow they're going to start getting malware targeting them as well.
 
2012-12-18 03:54:58 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?


I thought be oblivious was one of the requirements to work there.
 
2012-12-18 04:05:06 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?


because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

why is it so hard for you to understand that different user demographics have different behavioral trends and different requirements and engage in different activities?


Mad_Radhu: Yeah, there are some very weird design decisions in Win RT. The settings are just odd for example. All of the restore options are buried down in the General area, and in the Metro setting panel there is no quick option to set the screen time out and sleep settings from their default, which I think was something lime 1 min so the tablet would go to sleep if you were reading a long blog post. Instead, I had to go to the Desktop and then dig down into the power settings in order to change the sleep behavior. I don't understand how that never came up in user testing.


it might have. they just probably didn't have the time to write and test an entirely metro-ized control panel.

Mad_Radhu: Also, if they were planning to sell keyboard covers, they should have integrated a Caps Lock notification into the OS itself. I know most laptops do this via 3rd party software, but since the Surface keyboard cover lacks an LED because it is so thin, they should have made doubly sure that the OS is going to helpfully warn you when you accidentally hit it.


well it does (and has for a while) warned about this in password input, etc. my gaming laptop also doesn't ahve a LED to indicate capslock for some reason and that is midly annoying. they should have integrated a few status LEDs into the device along the bottom - next to the windows logo/button.
 
2012-12-18 04:06:09 PM  

gerbilpox:
Then, of course, there was Windows NT, which looked like regular Windows but was incompatible with a lot of Windows desktop software.


By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.
 
2012-12-18 04:11:50 PM  

Dwedit: By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.


It isn't that the NT4 was really more forgiving than NT3.51, it was that more programs used documented APIs by that point as opposed to thumping hardware directly, which results in a General Protection Fault.
 
2012-12-18 04:11:57 PM  

Kazan: Vegan Meat Popsicle: I don't care who you're talking about. Your own farking community forums have people in them talking about buying various versions of Office Home/Student through Digital River.

Again, why, as an employee of Microsoft, do you seem completely oblivious to the world of Microsoft?

because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

why is it so hard for you to understand that different user demographics have different behavioral trends and different requirements and engage in different activities?


oh.. to expand on this. the user set you're talking about is the target demographic of Surface Pro.


Surface RT
Windows RT (32bit),
Metro-style apps,
bundled desktop apps only.

32GB or 64GB eMMC storage.
1366x768 5-point multitouch displace. Capacitive pen supported.
NVIDIA Tegra 3 T30
2GB RAM
802.11a/b/g/n and Bluetooth 4
Two 720p cameras (front and rear facing)
USB 2.0, microSDXC, headset jack, microHDMI, cover/keyboard port
Ambient light sensor, accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass
31.5 Wh battery, 24W power supply

vs

Surface Pro
Windows 8 Pro (64bit)
Metro style apps,
all desktop apps

64GB or 126GB variants
1920x1080 10 point multitouch, includes pen
Intel Core i5 (Ivy Bridge) w/ Intel HD Graphics 4000
4GB RAM
802.11a/b/g/n and Bluetooth 4
TWo 720p HD cameras
USB 3, microSDXC, headset jack, mini Displayport, cover port
Ambient light sensor, accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass
42 Wh battery, 48 W power supply
 
2012-12-18 04:13:58 PM  

Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.


Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.
 
2012-12-18 04:15:51 PM  

Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.


and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].
 
2012-12-18 04:16:30 PM  

Dinjiin: Dwedit: By the time Windows NT 4 came out, it was pretty much compatible with Windows 95.

It isn't that the NT4 was really more forgiving than NT3.51, it was that more programs used documented APIs by that point as opposed to thumping hardware directly, which results in a General Protection Fault.


True, and it has been a few years but I have even seen programs like Firefox running on NT 3.51.
 
2012-12-18 04:19:11 PM  

Kazan: and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method.


I don't know anyone who owns a horse either but what does that prove?
 
2012-12-18 04:21:04 PM  

Kazan: because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.


Yea. Except. We're not. Your own stupid community forums have plenty of examples of students and regular people asking questions about digital river downloads and I don't know why you think the fact that my employees are part of a corporation is relevant. They're buying and downloading the damn software to use at home. They're not technical people. We have less than 60 people in total between engineering and IT and I seriously doubt more than a half dozen of them have bothered with the program, so we're talking about over 200 people in account, customer service, sales... you know... normal non-technical jobs like lots of people have. Or does simply having a job somehow mean you understand the mysterious world of "downloading software"?

You're full of shiat, you know it and you're trying to set up a backpedal. Digital downloads and disc-less installs are not some arcane magics confusing people; normal people will attempt to download and install standard Windows applications they use - from Microsoft and otherwise - on the RT tablet because as far as they know it's just Windows, and it won't work.

Microsoft. Made. A. Dumb. Decision. This naming will confuse some people. I don't know how many, I don't care, but Clarke is right. It will cause confusion. We are now done here. Goodbye.
 
2012-12-18 04:21:23 PM  

Kazan: Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.

and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].


Actually, I work for AT&T and worked for Chase Manhattan in the past, and both companies have corporate perks websites that give employees the option to buy the digital download for 9.99, and many non technical users do buy it.

I hear non technical guys in the office talking about downloading torrents, ripping cds, installing hds in their xboxes, because some things that used to be considered technical are now common place.

If apple users, which are the LCD of tech savvy, can use an app store, then the rest of world can gasp, download a software package.
 
2012-12-18 04:21:31 PM  

Hand Banana: True, and it has been a few years but I have even seen programs like Firefox running on NT 3.51.


FF 2.0.0.20 was the last version I could get to run under 3.51. Newer versions of FF make use of Win32 calls that are only in NT4 and newer.

images16.fotki.com
 
2012-12-18 04:21:49 PM  

Hand Banana: Kazan: and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method.

I don't know anyone who owns a horse either but what does that prove?


you need to get out of the city a little more?
 
2012-12-18 05:49:04 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Kazan: because i'm not oblivious. we're talking about different sets of users.

Yea. Except. We're not. Your own stupid community forums have plenty of examples of students and regular people asking questions about digital river downloads and I don't know why you think the fact that my employees are part of a corporation is relevant. They're buying and downloading the damn software to use at home. They're not technical people. We have less than 60 people in total between engineering and IT and I seriously doubt more than a half dozen of them have bothered with the program, so we're talking about over 200 people in account, customer service, sales... you know... normal non-technical jobs like lots of people have. Or does simply having a job somehow mean you understand the mysterious world of "downloading software"?

You're full of shiat, you know it and you're trying to set up a backpedal. Digital downloads and disc-less installs are not some arcane magics confusing people; normal people will attempt to download and install standard Windows applications they use - from Microsoft and otherwise - on the RT tablet because as far as they know it's just Windows, and it won't work.

Microsoft. Made. A. Dumb. Decision. This naming will confuse some people. I don't know how many, I don't care, but Clarke is right. It will cause confusion. We are now done here. Goodbye.


you have even less justification to make any statement you've made (Save the one on naming that we agree on) than I do. stop acting like you're the Grand Wizard of the Internet and all that is True.

theflatline: Kazan: Skyfrog: Kazan: i have never known a 'typical user' to purchase Office via download. they go to the physical store, and buy a box.

Come on now, it's 2012. Consumers buying software online is not at all uncommon. It's pretty much the norm these days. The most popular consumer computing devices these days don't even have optical drives anymore.

and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].

Actually, I work for AT&T and worked for Chase Manhattan in the past, and both companies have corporate perks websites that give employees the option to buy the digital download for 9.99, and many non technical users do buy it.

I hear non technical guys in the office talking about downloading torrents, ripping cds, installing hds in their xboxes, because some things that used to be considered technical are now common place.

If apple users, which are the LCD of tech savvy, can use an app store, then the rest of world can gasp, download a software package.


it wasn't a discussion of can it was a discussion of do. I know people do those things, but the type of people who are going to be confused by the Surface name for more than 20 seconds, in my experience, tend to not do those things. Anyone who knows enough to do those things will understand "it's windows branded, but it is a different version that cannot run your normal desktop apps".


Can it be confusing? absolutely
Will it be confusing to your user who knows how to download? Probably not
Will it be confusing to my parents? absolutely.
 
2012-12-18 07:04:31 PM  

Kazan: it wasn't a discussion of can it was a discussion of do. I know people do those things, but the type of people who are going to be confused by the Surface name for more than 20 seconds, in my experience, tend to not do those things. Anyone who knows enough to do those things will understand "it's windows branded, but it is a different version that cannot run your normal desktop apps".


Can it be confusing? absolutely
Will it be confusing to your user who knows how to download? Probably not
Will it be confusing to my parents? absolutely.


You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.
 
2012-12-18 07:06:51 PM  

0100010: You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.


your link agrees with exactly what i said, dude. The RT in Windows RT and WinRT both sand for the same thing Runtime.

/we just call it woa internally
//and are annoyed by WoA-only build breaks.
 
2012-12-18 07:13:49 PM  

Kazan: you have even less justification to make any statement you've made (Save the one on naming that we agree on) than I do. stop acting like you're the Grand Wizard of the Internet and all that is True.


Aw, now you're getting evasive and making increasingly generic statements about my alleged ignorance. How cute. Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.

I'll be sure to assign the appropriate weight to your recommendation keeping in mind that you seem to think it's still 1997 and people have barely figured out how to get their CD-ROM drives to work. on them thar new-fangled Winders Ninety5 machines.

By the way, your new server OS continues to blow chunks. Figure out how to make more of your own services run properly in Core so I don't have to load up that godforsaken disaster you call an interface and can just use remote powershell to manage everything,
 
2012-12-18 07:22:09 PM  

Kazan: 0100010: You'd have a point if you hadn't confused things yourself. Earlier, you stated that RT stood for Runtime. Well, that's not entirely true. Here, I'll help you. Windows RT and WinRT are different things.

your link agrees with exactly what i said, dude. The RT in Windows RT and WinRT both sand for the same thing Runtime.

/we just call it woa internally
//and are annoyed by WoA-only build breaks.


I'd love to see where that has been officially stated. On top of that, WinRT will be on the Surface Pro and is already in Windows 8. Sure, you can guess that since WinRT pretty much is Metro, we can imply that they're taking the RT from it, but saying that Windows RT means Windows Runtime makes no sense. There's no such thing as Runtime and if we go the other way, that would equally imply WinRT to mean Windows Runtime as well. If anything, the name would have to be Windows WinRT to actually come close to validity, though it sounds almost as ridiculous as "Built on NT technology".
 
2012-12-18 07:31:14 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Aw, now you're getting evasive and making increasingly generic statements about my alleged ignorance. How cute. Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.

I'll be sure to assign the appropriate weight to your recommendation keeping in mind that you seem to think it's still 1997 and people have barely figured out how to get their CD-ROM drives to work. on them thar new-fangled Winders Ninety5 machines.


You just have a fundamental issue understanding that the people you're talking about that will download stuff, etc are smart enough to not be confused by RT for more than 20 seconds.  The ones that would seriously be confused by it are the ones that don't have those skills.    You're trying to construct a frankenuser that doesn't exist, and use it to flog in an argument.
 
 

Vegan Meat Popsicle: By the way, your new server OS continues to blow chunks. Figure out how to make more of your own services run properly in Core so I don't have to load up that godforsaken disaster you call an interface and can just use remote powershell to manage everything,



The part of server that I work on is completely managable via remote powershell just fine.  I do it all the time.
 

0100010: I'd love to see where that has been officially stated. On top of that, WinRT will be on the Surface Pro and is already in Windows 8. Sure, you can guess that since WinRT pretty much is Metro, we can imply that they're taking the RT from it, but saying that Windows RT means Windows Runtime makes no sense. There's no such thing as Runtime and if we go the other way, that would equally imply WinRT to mean Windows Runtime as well. If anything, the name would have to be Windows WinRT to actually come close to validity, though it sounds almost as ridiculous as "Built on NT technology".



ah.  you're expecting to make sense out of the soup of technical names mixed with Branding names.  there's your problem.
 
2012-12-18 07:52:48 PM  

ongbok: 5 minutes of research into what they were buying and they would have realized that maybe the RT model wasn't what they were looking for and waiting for the Pro model would have been better suited for them.


What Pro model? There is no Pro model.
 
2012-12-18 08:41:31 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Because pointing out that you're completely, obviously and demonstrably full of crap and making up obviously stupid shiat somehow means I think I know everything.


Dude, just ignore him and move on with your life. Come to think of it, that might be a good idea for everything related to Microsoft from here on out, Xbox excepted.
 
2012-12-18 08:44:06 PM  

Kazan:
and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].


Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?

I don't have any statistics on which sells more, but a regular user would probably choose the non-disk box, given the choice, simply because it's cheaper.
 
2012-12-18 09:18:17 PM  

finnished: Kazan:
and yet i don't know anyone who had purchased office any way other than the traditional go to the store and buy a box method. I would expect that more of corporate users buying for their home machines. [i'm excluding MSDN subscribers from this discussion here].

Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?

I don't have any statistics on which sells more, but a regular user would probably choose the non-disk box, given the choice, simply because it's cheaper.


Actually, for new PCs, there is a free version of Office preinstalled that is limited functionality and most end users either go online and upgrade it, or they buy a card in store with a product key that enables the full version. Also, based on how the Office 2013 Preview acts, there is a pretty good chance that next year Microsoft is going to sell a subscription to Office where you pay $5-$10 a month and get to download Office to 3-5 computers you own as long as you keep up the subscription.

I've actually had some good experiences with software via subscription. I had some projects at work where I needed Photoshop and Illustrator to accomplish what I wanted to do, and our best option was to head out to Staples and grab a bunch of 3-month Creative Cloud subscription cards for $100 each on sale, so for $400 now have access to the entire Creative Suite for the next year on up to 2 computers at the same time. It's way cheaper in the short term than us dropping $2600 for the boxed software. Once you factor in upgrade fees, it would probably take 6-7 years to break even with the boxed software.
 
2012-12-18 10:09:58 PM  

finnished: Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?



when did that start? my mom bought Office 2010 and it had a disk...
 
 
i've been using MSDN for years
 
 

nytmare: What Pro model? There is no Pro model.



the one that was announced right along with the RT, but isn't out yet....  the one i've talked about in this thread...
 
2012-12-18 11:24:02 PM  

Kazan: finnished: Are you conveniently forgetting to mention that many of the boxes sold in stores do not contain a disk, but only a key?


when did that start? my mom bought Office 2010 and it had a disk...
 
 
i've been using MSDN for years
 
 
nytmare: What Pro model? There is no Pro model.


the one that was announced right along with the RT, but isn't out yet....  the one i've talked about in this thread...

 
Since 2010 they have sold office boxes with a discount that had no disk, just a key card in the box...
 
 


 
 
2012-12-19 09:18:01 AM  
What Pro model?

Surface Pro is the one with an Intel processor that sucks because it only has a four hour battery life.

Surface is the one with an Arm processor that sucks because you can't add any of the normal Windows software, just that Metro crap.
 
2012-12-19 03:17:14 PM  

BullBearMS: What Pro model?

Surface Pro is the one with an Intel processor that sucks because it only has a four hour battery life.

Surface is the one with an Arm processor that sucks because you can't add any of the normal Windows software, just that Metro crap.


I get the points you're trying to make. I agree with the Pro point. you get laptop battery life out of (suprise) a laptop like architecture .
RT doesn't suck if you bought it for what it does do well. Most office tasks, multimedia. news, web etc. plus strong vpn, (mostly) plug and plan usb device connectivity and upnp devices. That's what I wanted it for. That's what it does.
 
2012-12-20 01:42:12 PM  
Getting here late, but here's basically my take on this:

WinRT was a mistake, but a somewhat necessary one. Intel has now come out with new-generation Atom processors that run fast, run cool, and have good battery life for a tablet. Acer's W510 has one, and can be had for $549, sans keyboard dock. That's pushing into iPad price territory, and offers a unit that can do a LOT more than any other tablet at that price point.

ARM designs are exploding in the performance category, meaning that they could offer a real edge some day for tablet computing. In that case, it's good that Microsoft has an offering. However, it should not be their mainline offering, and that's what they're pushing it as in the tablet space.
 
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