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(USA Today)   Not content with causing an increase in Measles and other preventable diseases in the US, anti-vaxers now want to expand their scientifically discredited crusade against Thimerosal to UN programs meant to help the third world   (usatoday.com) divider line 103
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3781 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Dec 2012 at 11:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-17 10:44:27 AM
Approximately 40000 children died in Africa last year due to measles alone
 
2012-12-17 10:48:07 AM

NuttierThanEver: Approximately 40000 children died in Africa last year due to measles alone


Sure, but I bet NONE of them got autism from thimerosol!
 
2012-12-17 10:55:16 AM
Nearly 70000 died in India last year from measles.

/Come on folks we already let the fundies export the anti-gay rhetoric to Africa and now Uganda has the death penalty for gays, let's at least keep our idiots from spreading disinformation and fear to the third world.
 
2012-12-17 11:02:07 AM
The Derp is strong with this group...

/Captain Obvious strikes again!
 
2012-12-17 11:02:43 AM
PS this is not like the DDT issues. (ie it was banned in the US/Europe only to continue to be sold in the third world for profit)
The only reason they removed Thimerosal from US vaccines was for PR purposes, their was no scientifically valid reason to do so.
 
2012-12-17 11:02:47 AM

NuttierThanEver: /Come on folks we already let the fundies export the anti-gay rhetoric to Africa and now Uganda has the death penalty for gays, let's at least keep our idiots from spreading disinformation and fear to the third world.


What about the anti-genetic engineered food fundies who scare African governments into not accepting food and disease-resistant crops, resulting in mass starvation?
 
2012-12-17 11:04:41 AM
Do you know who had fewer cases of polio last year than the US? India. farking India. Quit screwing around with proven vaccinations and let's cure the measles and whatever other treatable nasties are out there.
 
2012-12-17 11:04:44 AM
Even if vaccinse DID cause autism at the rates they allege, its still better than being dead of frikkin measles.
 
2012-12-17 11:04:50 AM
F*ck these people and their anti-scientific bull.

peterthx: What about the anti-genetic engineered food fundies who scare African governments into not accepting food and disease-resistant crops, resulting in mass starvation?


And f*ck them too.
 
2012-12-17 11:05:39 AM
As I mentioned in another thread, I just had an elderly patient in the hospital die of the flu.

I am still following another young, formerly completely healthy patient who is critically ill in the ICU more than two weeks after getting the flu, and then getting several flu-related complications.

Vaccines were developed for a reason.

/Don't get me started on the specious objections to GMOs.
 
2012-12-17 11:07:02 AM
These people are responsible for spreading ignorance which leads to the death of both adults and children.

Assholes.
 
2012-12-17 11:09:46 AM

lake_huron: As I mentioned in another thread, I just had an elderly patient in the hospital die of the flu.

I am still following another young, formerly completely healthy patient who is critically ill in the ICU more than two weeks after getting the flu, and then getting several flu-related complications.

Vaccines were developed for a reason.

/Don't get me started on the specious objections to GMOs.


Frick, I keep forgetting to get my flu vaccine.

/My objection to GMO's is more based on how the companies producing them ACT than the actual concept of GMO's in general.
 
2012-12-17 11:09:59 AM

Holocaust Agnostic: Even if vaccinse DID cause autism at the rates they allege, its still better than being dead of frikkin measles.


I keep having to have this discussion with my sister. My nephew is autistic and while she's not an antivaxxer, she is a proponent of parents holding off or waiting for non-essential vaccines for their kids. I don't have a problem with her position but sometimes the language she uses is horrible "people need to know the side effects of getting vaccines" and I usually respond with "Yeah, polio, smallpox, and measles are pretty farking horrible side effects."
 
Xai
2012-12-17 11:12:25 AM
More people die from these disease every week than the 9/11 terror attacks killed. Why don't we tell these people where to shove their ban on preventative medicine?
 
2012-12-17 11:12:43 AM
Have no doubt the vaccines do not cause autism, but as someone who is highly allergic to Thimerosol, I wish there was a better preservative for stuff like flu vaccine.
 
2012-12-17 11:12:58 AM
I, like you guys, have been speaking out against the anti vaxers since they became a thing. At this point, I don't care anymore. The planet is overpopulated, and if these idiots want to self select themselves to die, be my guest.

/yes, I know about herd immunity, but this herd needs thinning.
 
2012-12-17 11:13:46 AM
Leave the legitimate ones out at least.

I know one "anti-vaxer" who has to quarantine himself every time he gets a flu vaccine. He's a carrier until his body fights the triggered full blown virus off.
 
2012-12-17 11:14:19 AM

abfalter: These people are responsible for spreading ignorance which leads to the death of both adults and children.

Assholes.


The people responsible for sacking the people responsible for spreading ignorance have been sacked

/got nuthin'
//anti-vaxxers are secret satanists
 
2012-12-17 11:16:52 AM
The Thimerosal/autism belief is a good example how people will continue to hold a belief, even after it's been proven wrong.

See also: GOP platform.
 
2012-12-17 11:17:40 AM

Felgraf: My objection to GMO's is more based on how the companies producing them ACT than the actual concept of GMO's in general.


Which is fine, as long as you keep the two firmly separated. There's work being done to make plant based vaccines, and anyone getting in the way of that has as much blood on their hands as the anti-vaxxers.
 
2012-12-17 11:18:41 AM
why not make it mandatory for anyone who thinks vaccines are a bad idea to be infected with polio?
 
2012-12-17 11:19:30 AM

Private_Citizen: I, like you guys, have been speaking out against the anti vaxers since they became a thing. At this point, I don't care anymore. The planet is overpopulated, and if these idiots want to self select themselves to die, be my guest.

/yes, I know about herd immunity, but this herd needs thinning.


It's the mutating their germy bodies will be doing that should worry you.
 
2012-12-17 11:20:05 AM

Kaiser Bill's Batman: Have no doubt the vaccines do not cause autism, but as someone who is highly allergic to Thimerosol, I wish there was a better preservative for stuff like flu vaccine.


See if you can get a single-dose or use the nasal vaccine. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine /thimerosal.htm

You may have to deal with the link filter, I am posting from a phone
 
2012-12-17 11:22:25 AM

Kaiser Bill's Batman: Have no doubt the vaccines do not cause autism, but as someone who is highly allergic to Thimerosol, I wish there was a better preservative for stuff like flu vaccine.


You are one of the people our herd immunity was designed to protect. Not everyone can be vaccinated, but the more of us who are the less you need to worry about. So harass your friends to get their shots :)
 
2012-12-17 11:23:49 AM
Think about this:

Could it be that the increase in autism is from the TV shows, for children, that feature that rapid, flashing, MTV-style editing being watched by very young children under 1 year old?

Adults, cans sometimes go into seizures from these techniques and there are warnings on some games, movies, etc.

Could it be that while the infant's brain is making crucial neural connections, there's some short-circuiting going on as the infant is trying to absorb 5 images/second with flashes and loud music?

I mention this as Sesame Street decided in the early 90s that kids were more sophisticated and watched MTV, so they didn't want to seem boring like "Mr. Rogers" or "Barney". So they changed their format to included such editing and other effects, and made the skits/scenes shorter so the kids don't get bored.

Parents, thinking Sesame Street is what they remember from the 1970s, plot their infant down in from of this, as it's "safe" entertainment.

Just wondering if anyone has thought of this.
 
2012-12-17 11:25:30 AM

NuttierThanEver: PS this is not like the DDT issues. (ie it was banned in the US/Europe only to continue to be sold in the third world for profit)


In part because it's still one of the best ways of dealing with malaria, and the devastation caused by malaria dwarfs the undoubted problems with DDT. Banning DDT worldwide would kill millions.
 
2012-12-17 11:25:44 AM

Private_Citizen: I, like you guys, have been speaking out against the anti vaxers since they became a thing. At this point, I don't care anymore. The planet is overpopulated, and if these idiots want to self select themselves to die, be my guest.

/yes, I know about herd immunity, but this herd needs thinning.


I just wish there could be a liability law.

So if you want your kid to die of measles or something, great, fine. But if your kid get's a kid who can't get the vaccine sick, well, you're legally responsible for that action.
 
2012-12-17 11:26:08 AM
Some people put a lot of pride into their anti-vax theories.

That pride is worth a lot more to them than a silly thing like reality.
 
2012-12-17 11:26:46 AM
I don't understand how Thimerosal can be blamed for autism when organomercury compounds are nearly ubiquitous in the environment and diet in quantities that vastly outweigh the amount one would receive in a vaccination. Nothing I have read or heard has addressed that. I am not agreeing with the premise that mercury may facilitate autism necessarily just saying that if you are going to blame Thimerosal you really have to put it into context of total mercury burden and all exposure routes.
 
2012-12-17 11:34:29 AM

csnake24: why not make it mandatory for anyone who thinks vaccines are a bad idea to be infected with polio?


Mumps too. Keeps them from reproducing.
 
2012-12-17 11:36:14 AM

Flash_NYC: Think about this: [lots of nonsense]


So the television affects their genetic programming as well? Autistic individuals are not brain damaged, their brains develop differently and they perceive senses differently.

The assertion you're making is quite insensitive to those who actually know autistic people - their brains are not damaged, they're just different.
 
2012-12-17 11:36:46 AM

1. Put snakes on plane: Felgraf: My objection to GMO's is more based on how the companies producing them ACT than the actual concept of GMO's in general.

Which is fine, as long as you keep the two firmly separated. There's work being done to make plant based vaccines, and anyone getting in the way of that has as much blood on their hands as the anti-vaxxers.


Wait, seriously? I mean, it makes sense that you could make a..

Oh, damnit. For a second I read that as vaccines for *plants*. Which would be pretty damn cool and useful, since it could help end crop failures/etc. Then again, given that most plant ailments tend to be fungus or insect based, it probably wouldn't be doable.

/Actually ARE their viruses that target plants?
 
2012-12-17 11:38:10 AM

1. Put snakes on plane: Felgraf: My objection to GMO's is more based on how the companies producing them ACT than the actual concept of GMO's in general.

Which is fine, as long as you keep the two firmly separated. There's work being done to make plant based vaccines, and anyone getting in the way of that has as much blood on their hands as the anti-vaxxers.


Careful with that broad brush. There's already evidence of genetic drift into the environment from GM crops...this is something that exists, and is something to be legitimately concerned about...kind of the opposite of the criticisms advanced by the anti-vaxxers.

GM foods have huge promise, but like anything powerful, they've got powerful potential side effects that we SHOULD be keeping an eye on. It's for damn sure the companies doing it won't...there's too much money at stake. I should know...I'm an agri-buisiness stockholder.

At least until we figure out how to build ourselves a whole new ecosystem, we SHOULD be monitoring this stuff.
For example, if we get man-made terminator genes into the ocean life that provides a lot of our oxygen, we're gonna have some serious farkin' problems. Yes, it's a long shot...but it's not a zero-probability event.
 
2012-12-17 11:40:55 AM

Felgraf: /Actually ARE their viruses that target plants?


Affirmative.

Wiki even indicates that the first discovered virus was a plant virus.
 
2012-12-17 11:41:10 AM
Let Darwin work FFS.
 
2012-12-17 11:42:28 AM

berylman: I don't understand how Thimerosal can be blamed for autism when organomercury compounds are nearly ubiquitous in the environment and diet in quantities that vastly outweigh the amount one would receive in a vaccination. Nothing I have read or heard has addressed that. I am not agreeing with the premise that mercury may facilitate autism necessarily just saying that if you are going to blame Thimerosal you really have to put it into context of total mercury burden and all exposure routes.


It's the fact that a large number of vaccines are administered to newborns. They get a batch of vaccines injected right into their bloodstream their first week when most babies are about 6 or 7 pounds. That's different than a 50 pound child ingesting something.

I am also severely allergic to thimerosal. If I had known it was a preservative in most shots, I would have waited until my daughter was a certain weight before having them done. I have regrets about her getting the full battery when she wasn't even 6 pounds.
 
2012-12-17 11:46:49 AM
Think about this:

Could it be that the increase in autism is from the TV shows, for children, that feature that rapid, flashing, MTV-style editing being watched by very young children under 1 year old?

[...]

Just wondering if anyone has thought of this.


Plenty of people have tried that route and they are wrong. Signs of autism are visible in infancy in person and on MRI as well as some signs that can be observed in the womb. Autism is still "unknown" but it is entirely congenital and most likely has a combo of epigenic/environmental causes.
 
2012-12-17 11:47:38 AM

AngryPanda: Flash_NYC: Think about this: [lots of nonsense]

So the television affects their genetic programming as well? Autistic individuals are not brain damaged, their brains develop differently and they perceive senses differently.

The assertion you're making is quite insensitive to those who actually know autistic people - their brains are not damaged, they're just different.


No. Their brains could be genetically wired differently, which makes them, like people more susceptible to seizures, more prone to have damage done to crucial neural connection pathways while their not yet fully developed brain is trying to absorb those images.

There has been a huge uptick in the numbers of Autistic children in the USA in the last 20 years. Is it due to better diagnosis or due to some new external factors that have appeared. Children's television has come a long way since "Capt. Kangaroo" and "Mr. Rogers".

The least someone could do is look into how those editing techniques, which can cause issues with adults; from headaches to seizures; may be affecting infant brain development. Or it may not be.

Some doctors say there shouldn't be any TV before 1 or 2 years old. I don't know, but shouldn't someone at least try to study what the effects may, or may not be?
 
2012-12-17 11:48:11 AM

AngryPanda: Flash_NYC: Think about this: [lots of nonsense]

So the television affects their genetic programming as well? Autistic individuals are not brain damaged, their brains develop differently and they perceive senses differently.

The assertion you're making is quite insensitive to those who actually know autistic people - their brains are not damaged, they're just different.


This. My four-year-old is mildly autistic and my niece is severe. Before either child turned a year old, I knew something was different about them. The Children's Center for Excellence is San Diego that assessed my son are now able to diagnose the condition as early as 1. Their research thus far is heavily leaning towards a genetic predisposition that is triggered, possibly by maternal infection during pregnancy or exposure to environmental elements. It's all fascinating and is not going to be as simple as getting shots or seeing too much Elmo.
 
ape
2012-12-17 11:48:40 AM
about 20 years ago they quit putting Thimerosal in eye drops. Turns out lots of people (myself included) were highly allergic to it. Didn't cause autism or death, but serious eye problems and allergic reactions.
 
2012-12-17 11:50:28 AM

PunGent: For example, if we get man-made terminator genes into the ocean life that provides a lot of our oxygen, we're gonna have some serious farkin' problems. Yes, it's a long shot...but it's not a zero-probability event.


Wow...that is the first time I have ever heard that mentioned or even considered. I agree that is very low prob (would be selected against) but damn wouldn't that be a neat little man-made catastrophe. yikes
 
2012-12-17 11:50:34 AM
Anti vaxxers and their crusade are the perfect embodiment of the term "first world problems" (or white people problems if you prefer). Life's so easy they have to manufacture a hardship to overcome.

Third world problem: My kid died of polio, but not before infecting the rest of my kids. I wish we had vaccines.
First world problem: That bastard doctor tried to give my precious snowflake a vaccine! Can you imagine?! The unmitigated gall!
 
2012-12-17 11:56:35 AM

Carn: while she's not an antivaxxer, she is a proponent of parents holding off or waiting for non-essential vaccines for their kids.


She's an antivaxxer. A mountain of data shows that benefits > risks, and autism is not caused (or even freaking correlated) with vaccines. Any other stance is simply ignorant of facts.
 
2012-12-17 11:59:21 AM

desertmouse: berylman: I don't understand how Thimerosal can be blamed for autism when organomercury compounds are nearly ubiquitous in the environment and diet in quantities that vastly outweigh the amount one would receive in a vaccination. Nothing I have read or heard has addressed that. I am not agreeing with the premise that mercury may facilitate autism necessarily just saying that if you are going to blame Thimerosal you really have to put it into context of total mercury burden and all exposure routes.

It's the fact that a large number of vaccines are administered to newborns. They get a batch of vaccines injected right into their bloodstream their first week when most babies are about 6 or 7 pounds. That's different than a 50 pound child ingesting something.

I am also severely allergic to thimerosal. If I had known it was a preservative in most shots, I would have waited until my daughter was a certain weight before having them done. I have regrets about her getting the full battery when she wasn't even 6 pounds.


Your daughter was exposed to more bacteria, viruses and toxins from the air in her first breath than could ever be delivered in a vaccine. There is only one vaccine given in the newborn period (hep B in the first two days of life). The rest are not administered till 2 months old. I would hope that your daughter was more than 6lbs by the time she was 2 months old. Multiple studies have been done showing there is no advantage to spreading out the doses. Actually starting at a later date puts them at risk. The reason we start at such a young age is that the illnesses being prevented are the worst the younger the infant is (H. flu, hep B) and the reason they need so many boosters is that the immunity does not persist due to their immature immune system. Waiting till you are over 1 years old to prevent H.flu is like waiting till your kid is 18 to get car insurance. I mean what's the chance a 16 year old will get in a wreck?
 
2012-12-17 12:00:48 PM

desertmouse: They get a batch of vaccines injected right into their bloodstream their first week when most babies are about 6 or 7 pounds.


desertmouse: I have regrets about her getting the full battery when she wasn't even 6 pounds.


Your immune system does not work based on how much you weigh.
 
2012-12-17 12:03:00 PM

Moonfisher: AngryPanda: Flash_NYC: Think about this: [lots of nonsense]

So the television affects their genetic programming as well? Autistic individuals are not brain damaged, their brains develop differently and they perceive senses differently.

The assertion you're making is quite insensitive to those who actually know autistic people - their brains are not damaged, they're just different.

This. My four-year-old is mildly autistic and my niece is severe. Before either child turned a year old, I knew something was different about them. The Children's Center for Excellence is San Diego that assessed my son are now able to diagnose the condition as early as 1. Their research thus far is heavily leaning towards a genetic predisposition that is triggered, possibly by maternal infection during pregnancy or exposure to environmental elements. It's all fascinating and is not going to be as simple as getting shots or seeing too much Elmo.


Well yes, but if they still aren't getting anywhere

vysharra: Think about this:

Could it be that the increase in autism is from the TV shows, for children, that feature that rapid, flashing, MTV-style editing being watched by very young children under 1 year old?

[...]

Just wondering if anyone has thought of this.

Plenty of people have tried that route and they are wrong. Signs of autism are visible in infancy in person and on MRI as well as some signs that can be observed in the womb. Autism is still "unknown" but it is entirely congenital and most likely has a combo of epigenic/environmental causes.


I did not know that autism can be observed in the womb. That would make a difference. I wonder what these signs are?
 
2012-12-17 12:05:40 PM

NuttierThanEver: Your daughter was exposed to more bacteria, viruses and toxins from the air in her first breath than could ever be delivered in a vaccine. There is only one vaccine given in the newborn period (hep B in the first two days of life). The rest are not administered till 2 months old. I would hope that your daughter was more than 6lbs by the time she was 2 months old. Multiple studies have been done showing there is no advantage to spreading out the doses. Actually starting at a later date puts them at risk. The reason we start at such a young age is that the illnesses being prevented are the worst the younger the infant is (H. flu, hep B) and the reason they need so many boosters is that the immunity does not persist due to their immature immune system. Waiting till you are over 1 years old to prevent H.flu is like waiting till your kid is 18 to get car insurance. I mean what's the chance a 16 year old will get in a wreck?


I'm glad that many of these concerned moms (read: morans) are back pedaling to the "too many, too soon" argument. They're losing ground. Of course, that nonsense can be smashed as well, as shown so succinctly above.
 
2012-12-17 12:08:10 PM

NuttierThanEver: desertmouse: berylman: I don't understand how Thimerosal can be blamed for autism when organomercury compounds are nearly ubiquitous in the environment and diet in quantities that vastly outweigh the amount one would receive in a vaccination. Nothing I have read or heard has addressed that. I am not agreeing with the premise that mercury may facilitate autism necessarily just saying that if you are going to blame Thimerosal you really have to put it into context of total mercury burden and all exposure routes.

It's the fact that a large number of vaccines are administered to newborns. They get a batch of vaccines injected right into their bloodstream their first week when most babies are about 6 or 7 pounds. That's different than a 50 pound child ingesting something.

I am also severely allergic to thimerosal. If I had known it was a preservative in most shots, I would have waited until my daughter was a certain weight before having them done. I have regrets about her getting the full battery when she wasn't even 6 pounds.

Your daughter was exposed to more bacteria, viruses and toxins from the air in her first breath than could ever be delivered in a vaccine. There is only one vaccine given in the newborn period (hep B in the first two days of life). The rest are not administered till 2 months old. I would hope that your daughter was more than 6lbs by the time she was 2 months old. Multiple studies have been done showing there is no advantage to spreading out the doses. Actually starting at a later date puts them at risk. The reason we start at such a young age is that the illnesses being prevented are the worst the younger the infant is (H. flu, hep B) and the reason they need so many boosters is that the immunity does not persist due to their immature immune system. Waiting till you are over 1 years old to prevent H.flu is like waiting till your kid is 18 to get car insurance. I mean what's the chance a 16 year old will get in a wreck?


Um, what I think he's saying is "I was concerned she may have inhereited my allergy to thimerosal, and wish I had waited until she was slightly hardier and more likely to not-die if she had an adverse reaction" or "I had waited until we could test and see if she was also severly alergic to thimerosal", or along those lines. Their concern seemed to be rooted in his/her own allergies to the substance.

/I could be misreading though.
 
2012-12-17 12:09:32 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: I'm glad that many of these concerned moms (read: morans) are back pedaling to the "too many, too soon" argument. They're losing ground. Of course, that nonsense can be smashed as well, as shown so succinctly above.


Right, but I got the gist that one person was more wishing they'd waited/was concerned due to their own severe allergy to thimerosal (whether or not one can actually inherit an allergy), rather than "Too many vaccines, to quickly!".

Perhaps I am being overly charitable.
 
2012-12-17 12:13:42 PM
Wow. You guys are so caught up in the whole "vaccinate - yes or no" debate that you seem to be missing the whole point on this. Whether or not there is proveable evidence that thimerisol doesn't cause harm, it HAS been removed from first world vaccinations. So most of the reasons that anti-vaxxers have for not vaccinating thier kids are specious. Fine.

but this is the real issue for me... it isn't as though there aren't other options, it's just that the options are more expensive..

So, a whole generation of third world kids will not recieve vaccinations are due to the fact that it might cut into the profit margins of your big pharma companies?? huh... i did the research, and noted that most of them are within the top 50 highest earners of the fortune 500 list for 2011...

So.... who should we really be condemning??
 
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