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(Townhall)   If the founders of America....caved in the face of early defeats, the American miracle would have never occurred. Tea Partiers must hang together, hang tough, and continue the winnable fight to restore American freedom   (townhall.com) divider line 140
    More: Hero, american freedoms, Americans, Index of Economic Freedom, tax reform, Walter Isaacson, American miracle  
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1619 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Dec 2012 at 9:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-17 11:20:37 AM

hubiestubert: Serious Black: hubiestubert: You know, it would be great if we had actual Civics education, and the Federalist Papers as required reading for the voting public.

I love the people who talk about how they are trying to restore the dream of the Federalist Papers and are basically advocating we turn America back into a confederacy. It's like they have no idea why the Federalist Papers were written in the first place or why we adopted the Constitution.

Not so much a dream of the Articles of the Confederation, but an understanding of what the Founders actually were thinking when folks invoke them. Madison, Jefferson, Morris, and the others who sat in the Constitutional Convention. The Articles of Confederation simply did not work--which is why folks sat down in 1787 for the Constitutional Convention. The Federalist Papers were published in order to get arguments for ratification into the public's hands. The Federalist Papers lay out the arguments for this new Constitution and powers, which were then fairly quickly amended with the Bill of Rights, which folks couldn't agree on fully for a bit. Even the Framers agreed that their document wasn't perfect, but it was the best that they could do at the time, and left room and provisions to keep the Constitution as a living document. It was certainly a group effort, one that was hotly debated at the time, and we have a House and Senate today because of that give and take, since many wanted lifelong appointees, a Congressionally appointed President for life, and a few other things that just didn't work for all the members of that Convention.

They were a storied lot, those who signed the Constitution; businessmen, patriots, a couple of outright crooks, a moon eyed astronomer who believed in five million worlds populated by intelligent beings, printers, lawyers, shipping magnates, men of lands and property, commoners who had done alright, the stay at homes, patriots, and even a few who had collected the taxes that folks had gott ...


Honestly, I'd say the biggest thing we can learn from them is that they weren't perfect and were simply doing the best they could with a very limited amount of experience in drafting constitutions. Now that the world has a lot more experience in drafting constitutions, we can do a better job. There's a reason Ginsburg suggests people look at what South Africa and Canada have done with their constitutions. In many respects, they are simply better.
 
2012-12-17 11:23:38 AM
Oh, the TEA party is fighting for freedom now? Last I checked, they were still fighting against my right to get mmj even though my neurologist and I agree it helps my MS. Last I checked, they were still fighting against my right to get married, even though my church is ok with it. They aren't pro-freedom, they want control over everyone else, they just don't want to have that reciprocated.
 
2012-12-17 11:25:00 AM
The right-wing mind is so predictable. Argue the probability of an event, that has already happened, in order to prove your point.
 
2012-12-17 11:27:33 AM
Just like what they would to Jesus, the Tea party would be the first ones in line to vilify, hate and punish the Founding Fathers if they ever came back.
 
2012-12-17 11:31:55 AM

Serious Black: Honestly, I'd say the biggest thing we can learn from them is that they weren't perfect and were simply doing the best they could with a very limited amount of experience in drafting constitutions. Now that the world has a lot more experience in drafting constitutions, we can do a better job. There's a reason Ginsburg suggests people look at what South Africa and Canada have done with their constitutions. In many respects, they are simply better.


They did the best that they could with the time that they had. And they were the first ones to admit that.
 
2012-12-17 11:33:47 AM

Zasteva: Which freedom would that be?


I wondered about that, too. I'm pretty sure it involves rape.
 
2012-12-17 11:36:36 AM
The Tea Party must hang together, else we will need to hang them separately.

// gonna need a bigger gallows
 
2012-12-17 11:40:40 AM

CPennypacker: Its sad and scary how much sway stupid and angry has in this country.


But not surprising. Unfortunately.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-17 11:41:25 AM
Again... the Tea Party has named themselves partially after the Boston Tea Party which was probably the largest anti-corporate action ever taken in the US. Yes, Virginia, it was just as much against the East India Company as it was against King George.

Not the tea party members are smart enough to understand that. They seem happy to send some of the biggest corporate ass kissers to congress in their name.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-17 11:42:00 AM

Dr Dreidel: The Tea Party must hang together, else we will need to hang them separately.

// gonna need a bigger gallows


Hanging them together would be physically responsible!
 
2012-12-17 11:48:18 AM
hasn't the Teahadist Revolution gone on about as long as the American Revolution? So... without much support or victory shouldn't they be calling it quits by now?

/I'm just asking questions here
 
2012-12-17 11:49:11 AM
The new tea party: now with extra Jesus.
 
2012-12-17 11:49:37 AM
QUICK!

RESTORE SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER LOST!



d23: ...Yes, Virginia, it was just as much against the East India Company as it was against King George. ... They seem happy to send some of the biggest corporate ass kissers to congress in their name.

Also this...

AND aren't we enjoying the LOWEST FEDERAL INCOME TAX RATE in recorded history right farking now????????????????
 
2012-12-17 12:05:30 PM

hubiestubert: It is sort of interesting that folks who use the TEA Party imagery seem to be looking defend corporate profits.


I would elevate 'seem' to glaring. Energizing these slow thinkers through patriotism and appeals to manly ruggedness into rabidly screwing themselves over to benefit the top 1% has to stand with history's greatest societal mindfarks. You can almost smell the money fueling it.
 
2012-12-17 12:08:30 PM

partisan222: hasn't the Teahadist Revolution gone on about as long as the American Revolution? So... without much support or victory shouldn't they be calling it quits by now?

/I'm just asking questions here


I don't know, the French may come in on their side any day now.
 
2012-12-17 12:09:31 PM

Cinaed: taoistlumberjak: Holocaust Agnostic: taoistlumberjak: Holocaust Agnostic: Solon Isonomia: Holocaust Agnostic: Cinaed: If the founders of this nation had not had the FRENCH, the American Experiment would have never taken place.

Teabaggers can do as their original chosen name implies.

Meh. Coulda won without the French.

I think Cornwallis just at end of Yorktown would have disagreed with you.

I'm sure he would, but he would be wrong. Demographics is demographics. And holding down distant colonies when the natives are a bunch of angry uneducated yokels spread over a vast difficult wilderness is an unappealing prospect. Especially in the face of domestic unpopularity.

Just a quick couple questions; Do you know anything about history? Have you ever read about the Revolutionary War?
Bonus question; are you familiar with the theory and execution of a "naval blockade?"

Yes yes and yes.

I re-read your comment, and realized I see where you're coming from. I completely disagree, as the French (and Spanish, to a very small extent) gave the British something to worry about in their own backyard, not to mention in the colonies. They did pretty much just say "farkit" and walk away, but we had a good amount of help towards getting them there.

We had a pittance of a Navy, a mediocre Army, and almost no money worth speaking of.

Without the French, we had no chance of winning the war. Would it have gone on for quite a while? Sure. Would we ultimately win? No.

Think of how the Civil War turned out. Now imagine that the Brits as the Union, and the Americans as the Confederates. Perhaps not as bloody, but the end result would be the same.


I think the colonies were going to win that war eventually. It could have taken twice as long, but eventually the British were going to get sick of chasing armies that tended to melt away after a minor defeat. The diehards were not going anywhere, and the continued conflict was becoming prohibitively unpopular in Britain. If I remember correctly, there was even a turnover in government where the opposition to the war gained an advantage over those loyal to the king. The Americans were too hardy a bunch to just roll over, and the British had more important things to deal with. Even if not immediate, the rise of Napoleon would have made the Empire think long and hard about their priorities, and the Revolutionary war would have been well finished by Trafalgar.

Now on the other hand, the War of 1812 could have ended very poorly for the United States. If nothing had gone according to plan, we would have lost the Northwest Territories (and the resulting control over the Great Lakes), as well as the even more terrifying possibility of losing all of the Louisiana purchase. Given that outcome, we would have been fighting the Brits well into the late 19th century.
 
2012-12-17 12:16:28 PM

taoistlumberjak: Cinaed: taoistlumberjak: Holocaust Agnostic: taoistlumberjak: Holocaust Agnostic: Solon Isonomia: Holocaust Agnostic: Cinaed: If the founders of this nation had not had the FRENCH, the American Experiment would have never taken place.

Teabaggers can do as their original chosen name implies.

Meh. Coulda won without the French.

I think Cornwallis just at end of Yorktown would have disagreed with you.

I'm sure he would, but he would be wrong. Demographics is demographics. And holding down distant colonies when the natives are a bunch of angry uneducated yokels spread over a vast difficult wilderness is an unappealing prospect. Especially in the face of domestic unpopularity.

Just a quick couple questions; Do you know anything about history? Have you ever read about the Revolutionary War?
Bonus question; are you familiar with the theory and execution of a "naval blockade?"

Yes yes and yes.

I re-read your comment, and realized I see where you're coming from. I completely disagree, as the French (and Spanish, to a very small extent) gave the British something to worry about in their own backyard, not to mention in the colonies. They did pretty much just say "farkit" and walk away, but we had a good amount of help towards getting them there.

We had a pittance of a Navy, a mediocre Army, and almost no money worth speaking of.

Without the French, we had no chance of winning the war. Would it have gone on for quite a while? Sure. Would we ultimately win? No.

Think of how the Civil War turned out. Now imagine that the Brits as the Union, and the Americans as the Confederates. Perhaps not as bloody, but the end result would be the same.

I think the colonies were going to win that war eventually. It could have taken twice as long, but eventually the British were going to get sick of chasing armies that tended to melt away after a minor defeat. The diehards were not going anywhere, and the continued conflict was becoming prohibitively unpopular in Britain. ...


Without French logistic support the Colonist would have run out of arms and ammunition.

Without the French intervention a negotiated settlement featuring some sort of American autonomy withing the empire is the most likely outcome.
 
2012-12-17 12:25:51 PM
I just realized my flank was turned and I ended up arguing against what I believe. I think we were going to win our independence from Britain, but without the French it wasn't happening before we'd experienced another half-dozen retreats to the Delaware and Valley Forge-esque experiences. Saying the French did nothing to help is completely inaccurate. They helped us considerably in winning our independence from Britain.

I think a good analog would be us supporting the Libyan rebels. The writing was on the wall for Gadaffi, but that was going to be a protracted, ugly, drawn out bloodletting of an entire nation without the outside help the rebels received.
 
2012-12-17 12:27:01 PM

mksmith: CPennypacker: Its sad and scary how much sway stupid and angry has in this country.

But not surprising. Unfortunately.


And if anybody knows how to manipulate stupid and angry it's the Republican Party. They are experts at stupid and angry.
 
2012-12-17 12:30:44 PM

Zasteva: Which freedom would that be?

1. Freedom from having to be offended by other people getting gay married?

2. Freedom to pressure other people to conform to your religious views?

3. Freedom to torture or imprison people indefinitely without trial


4. Freedom to force everyone to be JUST LIKE YOU?

/Let's face it...
 
2012-12-17 12:36:44 PM

PsiChick: Zasteva: Which freedom would that be?

1. Freedom from having to be offended by other people getting gay married?

2. Freedom to pressure other people to conform to your religious views?

3. Freedom to torture or imprison people indefinitely without trial

4. Freedom to force everyone to be JUST LIKE YOU?

/Let's face it...


5. All of the Above :-)
 
2012-12-17 12:45:06 PM

Serious Black: If they were actually supportive of freedom for everyone and not just freedom for white, rich, non-Hispanic, pro-forced birth, pro-heterosexual, Evangelical Christians, I would be 100% on board with the Tea Party.


Then I recommend you go back and look at who wrote the article.
 
2012-12-17 12:46:10 PM

Parthenogenetic: a white and delightsome slice of bread?


+1 just for using that word
 
2012-12-17 12:58:44 PM

Holocaust Agnostic: Solon Isonomia: Holocaust Agnostic: Cinaed: If the founders of this nation had not had the FRENCH, the American Experiment would have never taken place.

Teabaggers can do as their original chosen name implies.

Meh. Coulda won without the French.

I think Cornwallis just at end of Yorktown would have disagreed with you.

I'm sure he would, but he would be wrong. Demographics is demographics.


I have no idea what you mean by that.

And holding down distant colonies when the natives are a bunch of angry uneducated yokels spread over a vast difficult wilderness is an unappealing prospect. Especially in the face of domestic unpopularity.

Really?

The British were only unpopular insofar as they were trying to get the colonists to pay for the costs of the French-Indian war. Circa 1774 almost nobody wanted independence from Britain. They were petitioning the King to do something about Parliament levying these taxes, while they had no representatives. The King could have negotiated a deal to keep the colonies, he was just too stupid/arrogant, and underestimated the willingness of the French to fark him over.
 
2012-12-17 01:00:00 PM
I wonder how submittard felt when he saw the Boobies in this thread?

BRILLIANT!
 
2012-12-17 01:08:17 PM

randomjsa: Vodka Zombie: Oh... Bless your little hearts, Teabaggers. You guys are just adorable when you think you're smart enough to accomplish something more mentally taxing than scribbling your illiteracy on a poster board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_elections,_2010
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2010/results/state/

Minority Leader Pelosi and Majority Leader Cantor, along with Speaker Beohner all beg to differ.


Senate Majority Leader Reid certainly thinks the Tea Party has accomplished two things: brought his career back from the dead (thanks, Sharron Obtuse Angle!) and blown at least five easy Republican pickups, keeping the Senate in Dem hands.

Now please, tell me at least five House seats that almost certainly would have gone Dem if not for the tea partiers. Go on, just a fifth of the Republican margin in the House, just that small of a piece.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-17 01:17:07 PM

MisterRonbo: The British were only unpopular insofar as they were trying to get the colonists to pay for the costs of the French-Indian war. Circa 1774 almost nobody wanted independence from Britain. They were petitioning the King to do something about Parliament levying these taxes, while they had no representatives. The King could have negotiated a deal to keep the colonies, he was just too stupid/arrogant, and underestimated the willingness of the French to fark him over.


Partially true.. but what is being forgotten here, once again, is that all these taxes and fees, etc., were all administered through the East India Company. The colonists hated them as much as the royalty because the king was pretty much ruling to colonies through them.

The founding fathers would be appalled to see any institution, let alone a business or corporation, have so much influence on governmental policy.
 
2012-12-17 01:20:42 PM

mentula: Parthenogenetic: a white and delightsome slice of bread?

+1 just for using that word


Thanks, but in the interest of full disclosure, the phrase "white and delightsome" is from the Book of Mormon, referring to the transformation of the sinful Injuns into righteous white people should they repent of their evil ways.
 
2012-12-17 02:00:17 PM
Know who else didn't cave?

cdn-images.hollywood.com

/Never forget!
 
2012-12-17 02:18:45 PM

Curious: OTOH yours have FEMA shields (photoshopped) on the which is a nice touch.


OOh, I missed that. Yea, nice touch.
 
2012-12-17 02:21:45 PM

d23:
Partially true.. but what is being forgotten here, once again, is that all these taxes and fees, etc., were all administered through the East India Company. The colonists hated them as much as the royalty because the king was pretty much ruling to colonies through them.


None of the Intolerable Acts were administered via the East India company. That was what really pushed this from a tax issue to a "fark the motherland" issue. The Tea Act (and a bunch of other taxes) were repealed in 1778, as a peace offering, but .by then there were a whole bunch of other grievances.

And the colonists didn't hate "the royalty". Their problem was with Parliament, and that's why they were addressing the King for a regress of grievances. While the East India company may have run customs houses and largely run the Stamp Act, it was Parliament that was (correctly) seen as the source of these measures.
 
2012-12-17 03:06:41 PM
img196.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-17 04:59:32 PM
If you see your ideology as literally being in a war with your countrymen, there might be something wrong with your ideology.

DNRTFA.
 
2012-12-17 05:54:12 PM
Subby's joking, right? Please tell me subby's joking.
 
2012-12-17 07:32:51 PM
hang tough
images.uulyrics.com
 
2012-12-17 11:16:41 PM

Xcott: First they have to articulate exactly what freedom they think is missing, and needs to be restored.

This could be a huge time-saver if they realize that they're trying to save some vague sense of liberty from an imaginary threat, like UN troops amassing in Mexico to put conservatives in boxcars. In that case, they can simply declare victory and go home happy.


Right, that's what you said when they complained about the tax increases that were going to be imposed but hadn't been - yet. So you dwerped and tweebed about how kooky and silly they were for complaining about taxes. Which will be going up to pay for this shiat, as it turns out. Obama's raising taxes on the rich first so he can claim he's doing it as fairly as possible.

Instead of them being kooks, you guys are just fools. You'll always have someone to blame for the mess, instead of trying to understand the problem and solve it, which requires basic math, but math nonetheless.
 
2012-12-18 02:41:01 AM
I'd like to give them some due consideration for noticing that the USA is being dismantled into a world world sh*thole, but a): you'd have to me measurably mentally challenged not to and b): the people doing the dismantling are the people they're cheering for.
 
2012-12-18 05:00:46 AM

coeyagi: Minority Leader Pelosi and Majority Leader Cantor, along with Speaker Beohner all beg to differ.

Jesus, I'm sorry Fark. I unleashed the kraken.


I wouldn't worry about it. He's jumped in and done his one-post Threadshiat. You won't see him again for a while. ;p
 
2012-12-18 10:21:03 AM

Animatronik: Xcott: First they have to articulate exactly what freedom they think is missing, and needs to be restored.

This could be a huge time-saver if they realize that they're trying to save some vague sense of liberty from an imaginary threat, like UN troops amassing in Mexico to put conservatives in boxcars. In that case, they can simply declare victory and go home happy.

Right, that's what you said when they complained about the tax increases that were going to be imposed but hadn't been - yet. So you dwerped and tweebed about how kooky and silly they were for complaining about taxes.


Do you mean me, Xcott, or me, the Internet?

Which will be going up to pay for this shiat, as it turns out.

I wouldn't be surprised, seeing as how taxes are at a record low. It's not like they can go down any further.

I think it would be good for society if we had a tax hike, because we seem to be infected with a bunch of whiny pansies who complain loudly about having to pay far less than previous generations---record low taxes have stretched them to the breaking point. We are no longer the America that put a man on the moon; now, we are the America that whines on the Internet about the bare minimum obligations of citizenship.

We need to tax our generation as much as previous generations, and anyone who can't psychologically cope with this responsibility can have a stroke and let the rest of us move on.
 
2012-12-18 03:12:53 PM
The thing that annoys me so much about the Tea Party (probable initial good intentions, taken over by corporate and wealthy overlords, fed racism and I tolerance diet by right wing blockade, and now stirring up the same evil brew in my home Australia), the thing that makes my teeth itch - tea is a wholesome and delightful drink. A tea party is a civilized occasion. A tea ceremony is a reflective and ritualized occurrence. This is more like a party that can't organize a p*ss up in a brewery!! The worst sort of party, no booze, Christian rock, awkward and earnest types. No junk food.
 
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