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(Huffington Post)   "We reached out to all 31 pro-gun rights senators in the new Congress to invite them on the program to share their views on the subject this morning," ... "We had no takers"   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1019
    More: Sad, congresses, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, Louie Gohmert, assault weapons, Michael Bloomberg, senate democrats, Mayor of New York City, Fox News Sunday  
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4954 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Dec 2012 at 5:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-16 07:20:27 PM  

coeyagi: chuckufarlie: vygramul: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

That's completely false.

no, that is pretty much provable.

It's neither provable nor disprovable. I am not going to go into a long explanation as to why, anyone of any political persuasion can come up with reasons why.


of course it is provable, give him two pistols or a bolt action rifle and the number of dead would be much lower.
 
2012-12-16 07:20:36 PM  

coeyagi: No, no, no... the talking point is that it will reduce gun violence if we arm everyone. Because somewhere in Georgia, it actually did. It must have been so tough convincing everyone in that town to get a gun. It would be like asking them if they want to f*ck their cousin in the back of their Chevy.


I facepalmed so hard this morning: the top story in our local news is that gun sales have skyrocketed due to the recent spike in crime and violence in our podunk backwater shiathole.
 
2012-12-16 07:21:39 PM  

justinsmith354: It's irresponsible for anyone in my opinion to think of themselves as a protector of anyone but themselves or their family if they are carrying a CW.


Wow, you must be really important if you feel like you need to carry a gun around, then.

justinsmith354: I'd be lying if I said I don't think about "scenarios". Some drunk dirty bum holding a half ass shank, slurryly asking for my money while trembling from DT's isn't a scenario I see myself blowing the guys head off.


Aaaaaaaaand the paranoia starts to flood out.
 
2012-12-16 07:22:24 PM  
Just curious (fun little academic exercise):

Would you, as a gun owner, give up your right to bear arms today if there was an absolute guarantee that no one would be murdered by guns?

It's voluntary. And it would require everyone to do so. Fun little prisoner's dilemma. And... go.
 
2012-12-16 07:23:00 PM  

chuckufarlie: coeyagi: chuckufarlie: vygramul: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

That's completely false.

no, that is pretty much provable.

It's neither provable nor disprovable. I am not going to go into a long explanation as to why, anyone of any political persuasion can come up with reasons why.

of course it is provable, give him two pistols or a bolt action rifle and the number of dead would be much lower.


I can no longer tell the trolls from the non-trolls. Time for bed.
 
2012-12-16 07:23:17 PM  

The Name: Wow, you must be really important if you feel like you need to carry a gun around, then.


I'm very important. Just ask my 11 year old and my 6 year old.

The Name: Aaaaaaaaand the paranoia starts to flood out.


I don't know what this means.
 
2012-12-16 07:23:57 PM  

GoldSpider: chuckufarlie: Not less dead, just less dead people.

How do you know?


What part of "rapid fire" do you not understand? He shot 26 people multiple times. With the weapon he used, the thing that made the number 26 was that he could not find person 27. With a slower weapon, teachers would have more time to hide some of those 26 targets.



With a revolver, it takes a few seconds to reload. One of the teachers could have knocked him down while he was doing so.
 
2012-12-16 07:24:01 PM  

chuckufarlie: coeyagi: chuckufarlie: vygramul: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

That's completely false.

no, that is pretty much provable.

It's neither provable nor disprovable. I am not going to go into a long explanation as to why, anyone of any political persuasion can come up with reasons why.

of course it is provable, give him two pistols or a bolt action rifle and the number of dead would be much lower.


All 20 of them? That is what the original poster said. So.... no.
 
2012-12-16 07:24:15 PM  
uh, no shiat subby? After each shooting, the wharrrgbl is "Gun nuts use tragedy to advance pro-gun agenda!" NOT doing that this time is the right move.
 
2012-12-16 07:24:26 PM  

chuckufarlie: of course it is provable, give him two pistols or a bolt action rifle and the number of dead would be much lower.


You know very little about guns. And "proof".
 
2012-12-16 07:24:47 PM  

justinsmith354: I don't know what this means.


Yeah, well, you're from Arkansas.
 
2012-12-16 07:25:18 PM  
It would be nice if we could give the families/community our support while they grieve their loss before we start the poo flinging.
 
2012-12-16 07:25:34 PM  

The Name: justinsmith354: I don't know what this means.

Yeah, well, you're from Arkansas.


LMAO...Got it.
 
2012-12-16 07:25:52 PM  

chuckufarlie: What part of "rapid fire" do you not understand? He shot 26 people multiple times. With the weapon he used, the thing that made the number 26 was that he could not find person 27. With a slower weapon, teachers would have more time to hide some of those 26 targets.


That's one possibility. Another is that he could have shot just as many people or more with the pistols. It isn't any harder to shoot a bunch of people with a semi-auto pistol than it is a semi-auto rifle.
 
2012-12-16 07:26:01 PM  

thismomentinblackhistory: Pokey.Clyde: Oh, look. Yet another gun thread filled with people who know little to nothing about guns telling the rest of us what we can and can't do with our legal, constitutionally protected firearms.

I don't know enough about guns to really even suggest what to limit, restrict, or change.

Where would you start? Would you change it at all? How will we measure success? Only one mass shooting a year?


Here you go
 
2012-12-16 07:27:15 PM  

The Name:
Wow, you must be really important if you feel like you need to carry a gun around, then.


God forbid someone should think they're anything other than a filthy pleb who has no responsibility to protect their immediate family from predation while The Name is around. That's why we have police citizen. If confronted with other violent and/or predatory males please remain calm, curl into a ball, and whimper softly until the police arrive to provide your children with state approved protection and your wife with state sanctioned manditory sexual assault counseling.
 
2012-12-16 07:27:31 PM  

minoridiot: It would be nice if we could give the families/community our support while they grieve their loss engage in self-congratulating, self-indulgent, meaningless gestures before we start the poo flinging.


FTFY. Ready to quit Facebook after this weekend.
 
2012-12-16 07:27:50 PM  

The Name: justinsmith354: I don't know what this means.

Yeah, well, you're from Arkansas.


OH wait...I get it now. I'm paranoid for not seeing myself pulling my CW in a situation where everyone can most likely just walk away and not get hurt. GOT IT!
 
2012-12-16 07:27:57 PM  

chuckufarlie: GoldSpider: chuckufarlie: Not less dead, just less dead people.

How do you know?

What part of "rapid fire" do you not understand? He shot 26 people multiple times. With the weapon he used, the thing that made the number 26 was that he could not find person 27. With a slower weapon, teachers would have more time to hide some of those 26 targets.



With a revolver, it takes a few seconds to reload. One of the teachers could have knocked him down while he was doing so.


Here you go

Glad you made the revolver concession, because my proposal doesn't cover them (The definitions set in the NFA cause that, I'm not intentionally leaving them out)
 
2012-12-16 07:28:07 PM  

GoldSpider: chuckufarlie: of course it is provable, give him two pistols or a bolt action rifle and the number of dead would be much lower.

You know very little about guns. And "proof".


I have been around rifles and pistols my entire life. And somewhere along the way I realized that there a lot of people in this country that do not have the intelligence to own and use guns.

As for proof, Einstein, the only way to truly proof this would be to get a school full of kids and shoot them. I am sure that a gun nut would have no problem with that because that right to own any weapon you want is very, very important.

It is also totally outdated and pointless.
 
2012-12-16 07:28:30 PM  

coeyagi: Just curious (fun little academic exercise):

Would you, as a gun owner, give up your right to bear arms today if there was an absolute guarantee that no one would be murdered by guns?

It's voluntary. And it would require everyone to do so. Fun little prisoner's dilemma. And... go.


Killed or murdered? Also could they still be shot but they just wouldn't die? Would it be like that last season of Torchwood? Would we have hordes of people with bullet holes just stumbling around because they couldn't die? Is that was is going to start the zombie Apocalypse? Because if that is so then hell no. I will never subject the human race to a zombie apocalypse....
 
2012-12-16 07:29:13 PM  

Sgt Otter: NewportBarGuy: One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Louie, you are the Prince of Derptown.

...that would be the M4 that is nearly impossible for civilians to obtain due to its burst-fire capability, and being categorized as a short-barreled rifle.

/pedant


Colt sells their civilian 16" semi-auto version and actually roll marks it M4.

www.impactguns.com

pedant too
 
2012-12-16 07:29:18 PM  

James F. Campbell: coeyagi: No, no, no... the talking point is that it will reduce gun violence if we arm everyone. Because somewhere in Georgia, it actually did. It must have been so tough convincing everyone in that town to get a gun. It would be like asking them if they want to f*ck their cousin in the back of their Chevy.

I facepalmed so hard this morning: the top story in our local news is that gun sales have skyrocketed due to the recent spike in crime and violence in our podunk backwater shiathole.


Guns are collectible.
The law abiding are clamoring for a new law to abide by, and the only assured result is the value of firearms will multiply.

Your political stripes dont matter, You'd be an idiot not to buy now.

/Its like not wanting to buy 80's apple stock because you hate hipsters.
/I saw a guy buying a stack of pmags for a rifle he doesn't even own.
/so much as a leaf drops and his investment gets a hefty return.
 
2012-12-16 07:29:25 PM  

KidneyStone: NewportBarGuy: One exception? Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Louie, you are the Prince of Derptown.

In case you didn't notice, not having a rifle didn't work out so well. But who's to say having a rifle would have made a difference?

I can say one thing: you can't win a raffle without having a ticket


It didn't work out so well for mother of the guy who killed her with her own weapons and then used them to shoot up a school either.
 
2012-12-16 07:29:42 PM  

justinsmith354: The Name: justinsmith354: I don't know what this means.

Yeah, well, you're from Arkansas.

OH wait...I get it now. I'm paranoid for not seeing myself pulling my CW in a situation where everyone can most likely just walk away and not get hurt. GOT IT!


No, you're paranoid for dreaming up those situations in the first place.
 
2012-12-16 07:30:46 PM  

coeyagi: siphra: Pincy: siphra: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

The bushmaster isn't an assault weapon. It is a small caliber semi-automatic rifle, The only difference between it and any other semi-auto is looks, it has ergonomic grips, because god forbid someone shooting might want to be comfortable doing so.

Ya, the last thing you want is to be uncomfortable when you are killing people.

And how many people am I supposed to have killed, I currently own 6 different guns, need to make sure I get my minimum gun owner quota in.

I shoot regularly, and if you spend an hour or so at a range, you know what a difference the weight, and design of the weapon makes. I have never killed anyone, so tell me why it is wrong for me to want my firearms to be more user friendly?

It's not wrong, if you are the president, vice president, governor, mayor and sole resident of the United Republic of Siphra.


Have you ever had a rational thought? Seriously, the comfort of my firearms hurts you or these poor children how? What if he had gone in with a Semi-auto BAR variant, what would your argument be then? If it hadn't been sporterized, but rather had traditional features, what would you say then?

Be honest: YOU don't think anyone should have guns, except the police and the military. The rest of us are supposed to live in your utopia while ignoring ours.

World-wide data doesn't support your views, the only thing you have is your 'feelings' on the matter. Truth be told I don't care what you feel. There are 80,000,000 legal owners, there are 9000 crimes, of those less than 2% per year with a running average are carried out by legal owners. You are telling me that 80,000,000 people need to pay the price because there are 9,000 a*holes out there?
 
2012-12-16 07:30:46 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: Pistols are a defensive firearm that allow me, the concealed carrier to control an area around myself in all directions against hostile persons for around 30 yards.


Bull.
Shiat.

They are the tool to carry for self defense.

Aluminum baseball bat and shotgun are far better choices.
Hell, an old-fashioned e-tool or a walking stick is a better choice.

Your opinions are retarded and your "egg" is just nonsensical chest beating.

The real-life effective range of a pistol, practically speaking, is around 18 feet. Read the report - in real life, cops have a 38% chance of hitting what they're shooting at when it's within six feet and a 17% chance of hitting what they're shooting at within 21 feet when they use pistols.

/And my baseball bat won't wound innocent bystanders, either, maroon.
//Now go wash your face.
 
2012-12-16 07:30:57 PM  

siphra: Pincy: siphra: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

The bushmaster isn't an assault weapon. It is a small caliber semi-automatic rifle, The only difference between it and any other semi-auto is looks, it has ergonomic grips, because god forbid someone shooting might want to be comfortable doing so.

Ya, the last thing you want is to be uncomfortable when you are killing people.

And how many people am I supposed to have killed, I currently own 6 different guns, need to make sure I get my minimum gun owner quota in.

I shoot regularly, and if you spend an hour or so at a range, you know what a difference the weight, and design of the weapon makes. I have never killed anyone, so tell me why it is wrong for me to want my firearms to be more user friendly?


No, I don't want guns to be more comfortable. I think they should be downright painful to fire. Anything to make guns less "fun" is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Now before you get started, I'm not for banning all guns. I understand that sometimes they are a necessary evil. But that's all they should be. They shouldn't be a fun toy that people enjoy using. They shouldn't be seen as cool and little kids shouldn't grow up wanting them. They should be something people regret having to use. This whole gun-worship culture has gotten out of control.

So no, I don't want to take your guns away. But I could care less about your comfort using them.
 
2012-12-16 07:32:21 PM  

chuckufarlie: And somewhere along the way I realized that there a lot of people in this country that do not have the intelligence to own and use guns.


So you're arguing that this kid was too stupid to know how to use a gun? I think the result suggests otherwise.
 
2012-12-16 07:33:17 PM  

The Name:
No, you're paranoid for dreaming up those situations in the first place.


Oh, the reasons prisons are filled with violent offenders is because of justinsmith354's paranoia.

Thanks for that TheName. All those people in prison will be glad to know that the violent crimes they committed were a figment of someone's imagination.

You're like the liberal version of Internet Tough Guy.
 
2012-12-16 07:37:09 PM  
If you have guns in your home, you're more likely to kill or be killed by a family member or intimate acquaintance than you are to use your guns to fend off a home invasion.

I hope all you gun nuts have lots and lots and lots of guns in your houses.
 
2012-12-16 07:37:10 PM  

GoldSpider: chuckufarlie: What part of "rapid fire" do you not understand? He shot 26 people multiple times. With the weapon he used, the thing that made the number 26 was that he could not find person 27. With a slower weapon, teachers would have more time to hide some of those 26 targets.

That's one possibility. Another is that he could have shot just as many people or more with the pistols. It isn't any harder to shoot a bunch of people with a semi-auto pistol than it is a semi-auto rifle.


Most people are more accurate with rifles than with pistols. Also, his rifle used magazines holding thirty rounds. That required a lot less reloading magazines than with a pistol. The pistols have a fifteen round mag.
 
2012-12-16 07:37:11 PM  

siphra: coeyagi: siphra: Pincy: siphra: Flying Lasagna Monster: If the assault weapons ban were allowed to still be in force, those 20 innocent children would still be alive. Hope you're all proud of yourselves, gun nuts.

The bushmaster isn't an assault weapon. It is a small caliber semi-automatic rifle, The only difference between it and any other semi-auto is looks, it has ergonomic grips, because god forbid someone shooting might want to be comfortable doing so.

Ya, the last thing you want is to be uncomfortable when you are killing people.

And how many people am I supposed to have killed, I currently own 6 different guns, need to make sure I get my minimum gun owner quota in.

I shoot regularly, and if you spend an hour or so at a range, you know what a difference the weight, and design of the weapon makes. I have never killed anyone, so tell me why it is wrong for me to want my firearms to be more user friendly?

It's not wrong, if you are the president, vice president, governor, mayor and sole resident of the United Republic of Siphra.

Have you ever had a rational thought? Seriously, the comfort of my firearms hurts you or these poor children how? What if he had gone in with a Semi-auto BAR variant, what would your argument be then? If it hadn't been sporterized, but rather had traditional features, what would you say then?

Be honest: YOU don't think anyone should have guns, except the police and the military. The rest of us are supposed to live in your utopia while ignoring ours.

World-wide data doesn't support your views, the only thing you have is your 'feelings' on the matter. Truth be told I don't care what you feel. There are 80,000,000 legal owners, there are 9000 crimes, of those less than 2% per year with a running average are carried out by legal owners. You are telling me that 80,000,000 people need to pay the price because there are 9,000 a*holes out there?


I'll just say that you were wrong on most counts regarding me, my opinions or motivations. Watching you froth was worth it though.
 
2012-12-16 07:37:12 PM  

toomuchwhargarbl: The Name:
No, you're paranoid for dreaming up those situations in the first place.

Oh, the reasons prisons are filled with violent offenders is because of justinsmith354's paranoia.

Thanks for that TheName. All those people in prison will be glad to know that the violent crimes they committed were a figment of someone's imagination.

You're like the liberal version of Internet Tough Guy.


I bet he doesn't wear a seat belt in cars or a helmet riding. That shiat is for paranoid squares.
 
2012-12-16 07:38:13 PM  

The Name: justinsmith354: The Name: justinsmith354: I don't know what this means.

Yeah, well, you're from Arkansas.

OH wait...I get it now. I'm paranoid for not seeing myself pulling my CW in a situation where everyone can most likely just walk away and not get hurt. GOT IT!

No, you're paranoid for dreaming up those situations in the first place.


Wow. Ok. I'll get with the professionals then and see how that train or prepare mentally and physically for situations. I'm sure it's something the general public hasn't heard of. Surely they don't think (or dream) up scenarios. God help us if our police force is that paranoid.
 
2012-12-16 07:38:42 PM  

James F. Campbell: If you have guns in your home, you're more likely to kill or be killed by a family member or intimate acquaintance than you are to use your guns to fend off a home invasion.

I hope all you gun nuts have lots and lots and lots of guns in your houses.


And they told me gun nuts were the violent ones who wish death on others.
 
2012-12-16 07:39:03 PM  

GoldSpider: chuckufarlie: And somewhere along the way I realized that there a lot of people in this country that do not have the intelligence to own and use guns.

So you're arguing that this kid was too stupid to know how to use a gun? I think the result suggests otherwise.


actually I was not talking about this kid at all. I was making a blanket statement about gun nuts. Having the intelligence that allows you to shoot a gun is not the same as having the intelligence to use one responsibly.
 
2012-12-16 07:39:17 PM  

propasaurus: A kindergarten teacher with an M4 would have prevented all of this.


A kindergarten teacher with an arms cache is where AL got his weapons. After he killed her.
 
2012-12-16 07:40:08 PM  

Kome: Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) told Fox News Sunday that he believed more guns are the answer to violence in schools.

"I wish to god she had had an M4 in her office," he said of Sandy Hook Elementary School principal Dawn Hochsprung, who was killed in the shooting.

Why doesn't he wish to god that the murdering psychopath didn't have a gun?


And maybe if we hadn't gutted our mental health care and research, we'd have fewer mentally ill people wandering about?

Making guns more difficult to obtain I think treats the symptom more than the disease. The disease is why we have such a high propensity to attempt to solve problems with violence. Work on that and we might have a much better solution for many long term issues.

Unfortunately, mental health is stigmatized both here and around the world. This is something I'll never understand. You don't stigmatize someone for having cancer, so why would you do this for mental health issues?

Eh, we'll just keep unsuccessfully trying to deal with this by treating the symptoms. It's the same with crime. Punishment and more strict laws, not figuring out the underlying issues and solving long term problems.

/ probably goes against the fark you, I've got mine mentality
// also against the authoritarian streak
/// and the ITG syndrome
 
2012-12-16 07:40:52 PM  

chuckufarlie: the only way to truly proof this would be to get a school full of kids and shoot them.


You didn't just type this, did you? I question your judgement.
 
2012-12-16 07:42:08 PM  

Farker Soze: James F. Campbell: If you have guns in your home, you're more likely to kill or be killed by a family member or intimate acquaintance than you are to use your guns to fend off a home invasion.

I hope all you gun nuts have lots and lots and lots of guns in your houses.

And they told me gun nuts were the violent ones who wish death on others.


Gun nuts, Republicans, Christians... I could use labels all day for the special kind of asshole that thinks only about his own Rights and doesn't even want to have a discussion about improving society because they're paranoid about losing said right. You also have the Right to be killed. It would seem the only logical way to have the conversation move in a constructive direction.
 
2012-12-16 07:46:11 PM  

chuckufarlie: actually I was not talking about this kid at all. I was making a blanket statement about gun nuts. Having the intelligence that allows you to shoot a gun is not the same as having the intelligence to use one responsibly.


And how do you know this kid should be included in that demographic?

Which do you suppose has a stronger correlation with violent crime? Legal gun ownership or mental illness?
 
2012-12-16 07:46:23 PM  

coeyagi:
Gun nuts, Republicans, Christians... I could use labels all day for the special kind of asshole that thinks only about his own Rights and doesn't even want to have a discussion about improving society because they're paranoid about losing said right. You also have the Right to be killed. It would seem the only logical way to have the conversation move in a constructive direction.


I do invite the discussion, since it's going to do nothing but piss away the gains that the democrats have had in the last couple elections. America likes it's guns.
 
2012-12-16 07:46:33 PM  
As long as none of this affects my ability to make home-made napalm, fertilizer bombs, and thermite I don't care if they take all my guns.
 
2012-12-16 07:46:44 PM  

Farker Soze: And they told me gun nuts were the violent ones who wish death on others.


I bet you cheer for cancer.
 
2012-12-16 07:46:48 PM  

coeyagi: Farker Soze: James F. Campbell: If you have guns in your home, you're more likely to kill or be killed by a family member or intimate acquaintance than you are to use your guns to fend off a home invasion.

I hope all you gun nuts have lots and lots and lots of guns in your houses.

And they told me gun nuts were the violent ones who wish death on others.

Gun nuts, Republicans, Christians... I could use labels all day for the special kind of asshole that thinks only about his own Rights and doesn't even want to have a discussion about improving society because they're paranoid about losing said right. You also have the Right to be killed. It would seem the only logical way to have the conversation move in a constructive direction.


the sorts of people who have no beneficial use to humanity I refer to as James F. Campbells.
 
2012-12-16 07:46:55 PM  
"In the wake of a tragedy, we invited 31 people who understand the 2nd Amendment on to badger them anti 2nd Amendment talking points because we're cheap like that. Now we're pouting because they're not that stupid."
 
2012-12-16 07:47:58 PM  

coeyagi: Farker Soze: James F. Campbell: If you have guns in your home, you're more likely to kill or be killed by a family member or intimate acquaintance than you are to use your guns to fend off a home invasion.

I hope all you gun nuts have lots and lots and lots of guns in your houses.

And they told me gun nuts were the violent ones who wish death on others.

Gun nuts, Republicans, Christians... I could use labels all day for the special kind of asshole that thinks only about his own Rights and doesn't even want to have a discussion about improving society because they're paranoid about losing said right. You also have the Right to be killed. It would seem the only logical way to have the conversation move in a constructive direction.


OK Mao. Hope your next five year plan works splendidly. Try not to starve too many millions of farmers.
 
2012-12-16 07:48:06 PM  

Phony_Soldier: chuckufarlie: the only way to truly proof this would be to get a school full of kids and shoot them.

You didn't just type this, did you? I question your judgement.


I did. Notice that I did not condone it or even suggest that it should be done. I was trying to point out how stupid it is to demand real proof.
 
2012-12-16 07:48:43 PM  

chuckufarlie: the only way to truly proof this would be to get a school full of kids and shoot them.


So you're adjusting your argument from "provable" to "speculation".
 
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