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(BBC)   British health service is trying to figure out what to do about people who are sick on weekends   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 130
    More: Interesting, British Medical Association, NHS, cultural change  
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8882 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Dec 2012 at 11:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-16 11:05:54 AM  
1. Instagreen articles.
 
2012-12-16 11:06:43 AM  
Soshalzm!
 
2012-12-16 11:08:02 AM  
content8.flixster.com
 
2012-12-16 11:13:45 AM  
in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"
 
2012-12-16 11:15:18 AM  
That's easy, they just need to wait.

Grandfather-in-law got to wait 6 months for hip replacement after shattering his hip.

You get what you pay for
 
2012-12-16 11:18:59 AM  
Why would anyone ruin their weekend by getting sick? Save that shiat for a weekday when you can call in sick to work.
 
2012-12-16 11:24:23 AM  
Whereas here you just don't get the services unless you would be rich enough to afford supplemental health care in GB anyway. But socialism.
 
2012-12-16 11:25:53 AM  
Well. I've got a solution, but it's going to piss the nursing establishment and the IAFF Union boys off.



Community Care Paramedics, and treat and discharge in the field would go a long way towards relieving the burden people have on ERs in modern countries.
 
2012-12-16 11:29:47 AM  
But the board has said it will not be forcing doctors to work weekends.

How is it any different here in the US?
 
2012-12-16 11:30:47 AM  

CygnusDarius: Soshalzm!


Something like 47% of Americans don't pay income tax, the system works.
 
2012-12-16 11:33:14 AM  
this is our future...
 
2012-12-16 11:33:47 AM  

offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?


Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.
 
2012-12-16 11:34:14 AM  

uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"


Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....
 
2012-12-16 11:35:54 AM  

diaphoresis: Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays...


And anyone with an emergency can too in the UK.

Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.
 
2012-12-16 11:37:09 AM  
I used to occasionally get "sick on weekends." But then I stopped drinking vodka/redbulls. DNRTFA
 
2012-12-16 11:37:40 AM  
But if people don't work the weekend to serve my needs then they are violating my rights.
 
2012-12-16 11:37:48 AM  
If your sick on the weekend they should let you have Monday off.
 
2012-12-16 11:40:41 AM  

diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....


So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)
 
2012-12-16 11:42:31 AM  

BronyMedic: diaphoresis: Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays...

And anyone with an emergency can too in the UK.

Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.


so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

/Going to the doctor with sniffles, you would be right
//Paper cut? You'd be right again.
 
2012-12-16 11:43:10 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: That's easy, they just need to wait.

Grandfather-in-law got to wait 6 months for hip replacement after shattering his hip.


That probably just means that they had to wait for the fracture to heal before replacing the hip joint.
 
2012-12-16 11:43:13 AM  
I find it weird that they don't. A lot of the stuff in hospitals (X-Ray machines, MRI scanners etc) cost a farking fortune. The buildings, cleaning etc are all high fixed costs.

Look at hotels - they run 7 days a week and always aim for maximum occupancy (which is why hotels are so cheap in cities on weekends). At present, we're missing out on at least 2/7ths of capacity (and if you include evenings, even more than that).
 
2012-12-16 11:44:11 AM  

uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....

So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)


What was YOUR point? Oh yeah.. "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1".
 
2012-12-16 11:44:50 AM  
These doctors make how much money, but they can't work weekends? Poor minimum wage retail workers probably work one weekend day, if not both.
 
2012-12-16 11:44:54 AM  

lewismarktwo: Whereas here you just don't get the services unless you would be rich enough to afford supplemental health care in GB anyway. But socialism.


Here if you are rich enough to pay for private treatment, you get to pay twice. But conservatism, I guess.
 
2012-12-16 11:48:48 AM  
I can understand why you'd want X-Ray, CT, and such on the weekends for emergencies, but why "routine surgery"? That shiat can wait until Monday, I'm sure.


diaphoresis: so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..


Go talk to some ER staff or EMTs. A lot of people who either don't have primary care docs (for whatever reason) or can't see them because they're closed end up showing up at the ER for crap. And, of course, they can't look at them and say "Are you farking stupid?" and just send them home. And that doesn't count the people just looking to score some free painkillers.

/if you're not broken or bleeding
 
2012-12-16 11:48:56 AM  

diaphoresis: so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

/Going to the doctor with sniffles, you would be right
//Paper cut? You'd be right again.


No, it really is. Back when BronyMedic was an EMT, studies showed that less than 9% of people who called 911 for a condition which they were transported for were classified as a true "Medical Emergency", that is immediate intervention in an ER and by the EMS team were necessary to ensure their continued survival. The source for this is the 2004 ED of the AAOS EMT Textbook.

The majority of presentations to an ER can be handled in an Urgent Care or Fast Track care setting, and this is the reason that so many ERs have opened these setups now.

Treating Chronic Pain properly would go a LONG way towards preventing a lot of these unnecessary ER visits. Community Care Paramedics who can treat and release in the field, or treat and follow-up to a clinic would be a help too, but thanks to various union efforts against Paramedic Education in the United States, only two States have that scope of practice for their Paramedics.

The fact of the matter is that most people who present to an ER on the weekends do not need ER care. That is why they set in triage for hours waiting to even get a room, versus immediately seeing a doctor. (Waiting is good, by the way. It means you're not about to die according to the ESI Triage Scale)
 
2012-12-16 11:49:17 AM  

BronyMedic: Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.


Patient convenience is a secondary consideration here. Operating theatres, MRI scanners, ICU beds and other equipment are expensive investments. It makes sense to use them as much as possible, and not just from 9 - 5 on weekdays. Some specialities already work round the clock: when my grandmother broke both hips in a fall the NHS gave her nice new ones in an operation which started at about 2am.

And, of course, if you're on the transplant list and a suitable heart / liver / kidney / lung / whatever becomes available on a Sunday morning, that's when you get the message, grab your bag and head for the hospital as fast as you can.
 
2012-12-16 11:49:59 AM  
US health system is trying to figure out what to do about people who are sick but not rich
 
2012-12-16 11:50:18 AM  

BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.


So why can't I get in to see my doctor on the weekend instead of having to go to either an emergency room or an "urgent care" location when I have a health related issue that isn't an emergency?
 
2012-12-16 11:51:18 AM  

offmymeds: So why can't I get in to see my doctor on the weekend instead of having to go to either an emergency room or an "urgent care" location when I have a health related issue that isn't an emergency?


Because you pay a premium to do so, and that doctor is in private practice.

You, on the other hand, are not the audience that they're targeting with "free" healthcare anyway. The people who make five dollars an hour, and can barely afford to feed their kids are.
 
2012-12-16 11:53:07 AM  

offmymeds: BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.

So why can't I get in to see my doctor on the weekend instead of having to go to either an emergency room or an "urgent care" location when I have a health related issue that isn't an emergency?


Because your doctor doesn't want to work 70 hours a week - he wants to work 50 hours a week, or however many he currently is. Believe it or not, people do not want to work 7 days a week. Preposterous, I know. Most of us get a weekend of some form. The doctors (and nurses, etc, etc) all want one too.
 
2012-12-16 11:54:25 AM  

BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.


It's a lot more complicated than that. Doctors are typically employed by "Trusts" which run hospitals and primary clinics. They get paid by the government on the basis of services they provide (probably similar to Medicare, but with less fiddling). There are plenty of private practices, and many of those do work for the NHS as well, or doctors who do some work for the NHS and some privately.

I think there used to be a monolithic Government-Runs-It-All system, way back in the day, but subsequent governments have kept reforming it. There are some conservatives who want to get rid of the whole thing and have a more American system (or at least there used to be until it became apparent how badly that works), but they can't say that outright because of how extremely popular the NHS is. People are really attached to this idea of universal healthcare, free at the point of service. Despite all the bureaucratic crap behind the scenes, a patient can get anything from a routine check-up to full blow long term care without anybody asking "do you have insurance?" or without any money changing hands, and God help any politician who would want to get rid of that. So instead they keep changing things here and there, creating fake "internal markets", adding layers of management to make sure everyone "hits their targets" and a lot of crap like that. Some of it actually helps, but it leaves the whole system a bit complicated and convoluted.
 
2012-12-16 11:54:26 AM  

Spade: I can understand why you'd want X-Ray, CT, and such on the weekends for emergencies, but why "routine surgery"? That shiat can wait until Monday, I'm sure.


diaphoresis: so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

Go talk to some ER staff or EMTs. A lot of people who either don't have primary care docs (for whatever reason) or can't see them because they're closed end up showing up at the ER for crap. And, of course, they can't look at them and say "Are you farking stupid?" and just send them home. And that doesn't count the people just looking to score some free painkillers.

/if you're not broken or bleeding


I have spent very little time in ER's (lucky I suppose), but when I have been, it's always seemed people were limping, bloody, had children who were sick, or things of the like. I don't remember seeing anyone who looked uninjured.. seen a few that looked like they sleep on subways, but looked injured nonetheless. Again, not enough knowledge to say 95% of ER visits are unnecessary. I'll have to defer to your entensive knowledge on this one.
 
2012-12-16 11:55:29 AM  

orbister: Patient convenience is a secondary consideration here. Operating theatres, MRI scanners, ICU beds and other equipment are expensive investments. It makes sense to use them as much as possible, and not just from 9 - 5 on weekdays. Some specialities already work round the clock: when my grandmother broke both hips in a fall the NHS gave her nice new ones in an operation which started at about 2am.

And, of course, if you're on the transplant list and a suitable heart / liver / kidney / lung / whatever becomes available on a Sunday morning, that's when you get the message, grab your bag and head for the hospital as fast as you can.


The problem is that you're describing very limited resources, like MRI scanners and ICU care. They have to be rationed out as necessary to allow them to help the most people possible. There's nothing worse than having to take a very sick patient to another hospital because they can't get the ICU care they need at that hospital, or they have a time critical condition for which they were taken to the wrong hospital for. (I.e. STEMI in a hospital with no cath lab, Stroke in a facility with no Neuro care)

An ICU bed is not just another bed, either It requires specially trained nurses, doctors, and allied health personnel who are above and beyond your average floor nurse or RT in terms of experience, training, and knowledge. It requires more of them, too, as patient to care provider ratios are less.

At any rate, you're describing time critical emergency situations. Many of those doctors take call shifts at their hospital, or come in from home when the ER attending sees they need that care. Most people who present to the ER, above 90% of them, are not those cases.
 
2012-12-16 11:55:37 AM  

BronyMedic: Treating Chronic Pain properly Socialism would go a LONG way towards preventing a lot of these unnecessary ER visits.


Try it. You'll like it.
 
2012-12-16 11:57:11 AM  

skinink: These doctors make how much money, but they can't work weekends? Poor minimum wage retail workers probably work one weekend day, if not both.


I'm going to have zero sympathy when robotic surgery and automatic diagnosis take over. Doctors are some of the most entitled motherfarkers I have ever dealt with and nurses are some of the most arrogant people I've dealt with. Had a serious medical problem for months and kept going back. Not once did I feel like they were doing any more than the minimum they had to. And a lot of them are useless at diagnosis. They just guess at things rather than asking for a full set of symptoms.
 
2012-12-16 11:57:55 AM  

diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....

So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)

What was YOUR point? Oh yeah.. "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1".


That I was in before it. Which I wasn't. You jumped on me regarding being afraid of facts. Which I'm not. Even if you had presented any. Which you didn't.

nice try, though.
 
2012-12-16 11:59:31 AM  

orbister: ronyMedic: Treating Chronic Pain properly Socialism would go a LONG way towards preventing a lot of these unnecessary ER visits.

Try it. You'll like it.


i4.ytimg.com

You do know the philosophy of social democracy and altruistic support of the poor and disadvantaged is completely different than Socialism, right?

/facepalm

farkeruk: I'm going to have zero sympathy when robotic surgery and automatic diagnosis take over. Doctors are some of the most entitled motherfarkers I have ever dealt with and nurses are some of the most arrogant people I've dealt with. Had a serious medical problem for months and kept going back. Not once did I feel like they were doing any more than the minimum they had to. And a lot of them are useless at diagnosis. They just guess at things rather than asking for a full set of symptoms.


You will never remove the human factor from medicine. There's a reason WHY it's considered both an art and a science.
 
2012-12-16 12:01:39 PM  

orbister: BronyMedic: Treating Chronic Pain properly Socialism would go a LONG way towards preventing a lot of these unnecessary ER visits.

Try it. You'll like it.


The UN-cola
 
2012-12-16 12:02:20 PM  

diaphoresis: BronyMedic: diaphoresis: Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays...

And anyone with an emergency can too in the UK.

Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.

so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

/Going to the doctor with sniffles, you would be right
//Paper cut? You'd be right again.


Liberals will make up statistics to defend their ridiculous stands.
 
2012-12-16 12:02:36 PM  

uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....

So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)

What was YOUR point? Oh yeah.. "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1".

That I was in before it. Which I wasn't. You jumped on me regarding being afraid of facts. Which I'm not. Even if you had presented any. Which you didn't.

nice try, though.


Hmmm.. circular argument. Not suprising.
 
2012-12-16 12:06:25 PM  

Nemo's Brother: Liberals will make up statistics to defend their ridiculous stands.


Really? It's funny then that the universal majority of people who use an ER are people with unmanaged or poorly managed chronic health conditions on Medicaid and Medicare.

The problem is so bad now that State Medicaid Agencies are now refusing to pay ERs for their care unless the ER can demonstrate the patient was seen for a medically necessary condition.
 
2012-12-16 12:07:37 PM  

farkeruk: skinink: These doctors make how much money, but they can't work weekends? Poor minimum wage retail workers probably work one weekend day, if not both.

I'm going to have zero sympathy when robotic surgery and automatic diagnosis take over. Doctors are some of the most entitled motherfarkers I have ever dealt with and nurses are some of the most arrogant people I've dealt with. Had a serious medical problem for months and kept going back. Not once did I feel like they were doing any more than the minimum they had to. And a lot of them are useless at diagnosis. They just guess at things rather than asking for a full set of symptoms.


Are you farking kidding me? There are four nurses in my immediate family (+1 first cousin). They are some of the kindest, caring people I have ever met. The fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has told stories of 14 hour shifts where they didnt even has so much as time to pee, let alone eat anything leads me to believe you are either lying your ass off or have had the unbelievable luck to the see the same sour-assed three nurses your entire life.

Personally at some point in a 14 hour shift I would have told my patients to fark off because I'm going to eat a sandwich while sitting on a toilet for the next 3 minutes... but that's just me.
 
2012-12-16 12:08:09 PM  

TofuTheAlmighty: US health system is trying to figure out what to do about people who are sick but not rich


Die in the street like the founding fathers intended, because freedom.
 
2012-12-16 12:11:41 PM  
No such problem.
Getting sick is not in the five-year plan.
 
2012-12-16 12:12:01 PM  

Fizpez: Are you farking kidding me? There are four nurses in my immediate family (+1 first cousin). They are some of the kindest, caring people I have ever met. The fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has told stories of 14 hour shifts where they didnt even has so much as time to pee, let alone eat anything leads me to believe you are either lying your ass off or have had the unbelievable luck to the see the same sour-assed three nurses your entire life.


THIS. So much this.

For all you know, that nurse was having a bad day because she just had to code an infant, or she's had to deal with the same drug seeker that comes in every night and gets abusive with staff.

It's hilarious that so many people think a computer or robot will take the place of anyone in Healthcare. A computer will tell you that a patient has an elevated white count. It won't tell you if it's because they have an infection, if it's because they're dehydrated, or if it's because they've just had a stress response from the seizure they just had. Computers can be used to support clinical decisions, but it will always be a human being making those decisions in the end, because medicine is NOT an exact science, and 95% of your patients will NOT fit a textbook case description.

I've also yet to see someone tell me when a robot is going to be able to do something as "simple" as place an IV in a patient.
 
2012-12-16 12:12:39 PM  

Fizpez: farkeruk: skinink: These doctors make how much money, but they can't work weekends? Poor minimum wage retail workers probably work one weekend day, if not both.

I'm going to have zero sympathy when robotic surgery and automatic diagnosis take over. Doctors are some of the most entitled motherfarkers I have ever dealt with and nurses are some of the most arrogant people I've dealt with. Had a serious medical problem for months and kept going back. Not once did I feel like they were doing any more than the minimum they had to. And a lot of them are useless at diagnosis. They just guess at things rather than asking for a full set of symptoms.

Are you farking kidding me? There are four nurses in my immediate family (+1 first cousin). They are some of the kindest, caring people I have ever met. The fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has told stories of 14 hour shifts where they didnt even has so much as time to pee, let alone eat anything leads me to believe you are either lying your ass off or have had the unbelievable luck to the see the same sour-assed three nurses your entire life.

Personally at some point in a 14 hour shift I would have told my patients to fark off because I'm going to eat a sandwich while sitting on a toilet for the next 3 minutes... but that's just me.



The same bell curve or people from your high school is in every profession. Every profession. Reducing people in a profession to an archetype is folly. Whether they are soldiers, bankers, nurses, doctors, or supermarket checkout people. The are good ones, bad ones, charitable ones, biatchy ones, etc... in every slice.

/hell some of the 9/11 first responders were looting for jebus sake, and look at how they have been reduced to the abstract...
 
2012-12-16 12:13:59 PM  

BafflerMeal: The same bell curve or people from your high school is in every profession. Every profession. Reducing people in a profession to an archetype is folly. Whether they are soldiers, bankers, nurses, doctors, or supermarket checkout people. The are good ones, bad ones, charitable ones, biatchy ones, etc... in every slice.

/hell some of the 9/11 first responders were looting for jebus sake, and look at how they have been reduced to the abstract...


People forget that anyone, from cops to doctors to the guy serving your burgers at McDonalds, are human beings, no matter how noble their profession is.

Human beings with emotions and purely human factors driving behavior.
 
2012-12-16 12:15:24 PM  

NotoriousFire: offmymeds: BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.

So why can't I get in to see my doctor on the weekend instead of having to go to either an emergency room or an "urgent care" location when I have a health related issue that isn't an emergency?

Because your doctor doesn't want to work 70 hours a week - he wants to work 50 hours a week, or however many he currently is. Believe it or not, people do not want to work 7 days a week. Preposterous, I know. Most of us get a weekend of some form. The doctors (and nurses, etc, etc) all want one too.


I'm not saying that nobody deserves a break from their work. I would imagine that to be doubly so for those in the health services field. What I'm trying to get at is that there's got to be a way, for instance, to get my blood pressure meds refilled without having to wait 2 days (the weekend) before my doctor okays it. Am I supposed to go to the ER or an Urgent Care for this?
 
2012-12-16 12:16:49 PM  

diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....

So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)

What was YOUR point? Oh yeah.. "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1".

That I was in before it. Which I wasn't. You jumped on me regarding being afraid of facts. Which I'm not. Even if you had presented any. Which you didn't.

nice try, though.

Hmmm.. circular argument. Not suprising.


Ah, ad homenim rhetorical retort. Not surprising.
 
2012-12-16 12:17:28 PM  

diaphoresis: Spade: I can understand why you'd want X-Ray, CT, and such on the weekends for emergencies, but why "routine surgery"? That shiat can wait until Monday, I'm sure.


diaphoresis: so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

Go talk to some ER staff or EMTs. A lot of people who either don't have primary care docs (for whatever reason) or can't see them because they're closed end up showing up at the ER for crap. And, of course, they can't look at them and say "Are you farking stupid?" and just send them home. And that doesn't count the people just looking to score some free painkillers.

/if you're not broken or bleeding

I have spent very little time in ER's (lucky I suppose), but when I have been, it's always seemed people were limping, bloody, had children who were sick, or things of the like. I don't remember seeing anyone who looked uninjured.. seen a few that looked like they sleep on subways, but looked injured nonetheless. Again, not enough knowledge to say 95% of ER visits are unnecessary. I'll have to defer to your entensive knowledge on this one.


I've been to the ER once in adulthood, and it was for my daughter with a broken wrist. I would actually have gone to Urgent Care, but I called our pediatrician who said to go to the ER. She broke it at school at 2:00 pm, and I was in the ER by 2:45.

We weren't even brought back until 6:00 pm, and that was just to the inner waiting area with the slightly less uncomfortable chairs. We didn't get a room until after 8 and weren't out of there until the wee hours. If you've ever broken a wrist, you know this was not a comfy wait. I kept close track of who went in before us. The seizing kid? Yeah, you go first. Like wise the kid with the diabetic crisis, and the one who hit his head and is now puking. My kid is not going to die from her broken wrist. But fark you, yes you, mom of toddler with the shiats for three days who is in the waiting room shoving Funyuns down the kid's throat until she pukes all over the waiting room. You do not get to go before my kid who is in pain. Likewise the kid with the rash and no other symptoms who is acting just fine and running all over the place annoying everyone. And fark you, whomever told the kid in the cast to go to the er for her follow-up instead of the bone and joint center, because she had medicaid.

I will not go back to the ER unless death is iminent. It was horrible.
 
2012-12-16 12:17:35 PM  
British health service is trying to figure out what to do about people who are sick sex on weekends  

There goes my Freudian sick again.
 
2012-12-16 12:20:20 PM  

uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: diaphoresis: uttertosh: in before "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1"

Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays.....

So can I. Your point is WHAR (?)

What was YOUR point? Oh yeah.. "ERMERGHERD SERCHERLESM!!1".

That I was in before it. Which I wasn't. You jumped on me regarding being afraid of facts. Which I'm not. Even if you had presented any. Which you didn't.

nice try, though.

Hmmm.. circular argument. Not suprising.

Ah, ad homenim rhetorical retort. Not surprising.


Inaccurate non-sequitur to hide behind. /yawn
 
2012-12-16 12:20:31 PM  

farkeruk: I find it weird that they don't. A lot of the stuff in hospitals (X-Ray machines, MRI scanners etc) cost a farking fortune. The buildings, cleaning etc are all high fixed costs.

Look at hotels - they run 7 days a week and always aim for maximum occupancy (which is why hotels are so cheap in cities on weekends). At present, we're missing out on at least 2/7ths of capacity (and if you include evenings, even more than that).


Unlawful use of logic, go back two squares.
 
2012-12-16 12:21:11 PM  

GreyWolf007: farkeruk: I find it weird that they don't. A lot of the stuff in hospitals (X-Ray machines, MRI scanners etc) cost a farking fortune. The buildings, cleaning etc are all high fixed costs.

Look at hotels - they run 7 days a week and always aim for maximum occupancy (which is why hotels are so cheap in cities on weekends). At present, we're missing out on at least 2/7ths of capacity (and if you include evenings, even more than that).

Unlawful use of logic, go back two squares.


and skip 1 turn... ;-)
 
2012-12-16 12:22:08 PM  

Bad_Seed: I think there used to be a monolithic Government-Runs-It-All system, way back in the day, but subsequent governments have kept reforming it. There are some conservatives who want to get rid of the whole thing and have a more American system (or at least there used to be until it became apparent how badly that works), but they can't say that outright because of how extremely popular the NHS is. People are really attached to this idea of universal healthcare, free at the point of service. Despite all the bureaucratic crap behind the scenes, a patient can get anything from a routine check-up to full blow long term care without anybody asking "do you have insurance?" or without any money changing hands, and God help any politician who would want to get rid of that. So instead they keep changing things here and there, creating fake "internal markets", adding layers of management to make sure everyone "hits their targets" and a lot of crap like that. Some of it actually helps, but it leaves the whole system a bit complicated and convoluted.


The Conservative proposal is actually a lot closer to what France has. You still get treatment for free, but you choose who provides it. And this time it isn't a fake internal market, it's a real market where your GP pays for a treatment with a provider.

The NHS is a mixed bag. There's some great places (I'll single out the JR hospital in Oxford as exemplary) but some hospitals are a farking disaster. The difference between public and private sector is always that failing parts of an organisation don't get dealt with in the public sector. They are left to fester, especially if the performance measurements are wrong and easy to game (ER waiting times were manipulated by some hospitals having people waiting in ambulances).
 
2012-12-16 12:25:34 PM  
Some industries simply don't have traditional weekends. Entertainment, services, hospitality, catering/restaurants, etc. If you don't like working weekends, don't go into one of those fields. Otherwise, get over yourself.
 
2012-12-16 12:26:30 PM  

diaphoresis: Inaccurate non-sequitur to hide behind. /yawn


ditto, baby, ditto.
 
2012-12-16 12:27:30 PM  

offmymeds: NotoriousFire: offmymeds: BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.

So why can't I get in to see my doctor on the weekend instead of having to go to either an emergency room or an "urgent care" location when I have a health related issue that isn't an emergency?

Because your doctor doesn't want to work 70 hours a week - he wants to work 50 hours a week, or however many he currently is. Believe it or not, people do not want to work 7 days a week. Preposterous, I know. Most of us get a weekend of some form. The doctors (and nurses, etc, etc) all want one too.

I'm not saying that nobody deserves a break from their work. I would imagine that to be doubly so for those in the health services field. What I'm trying to get at is that there's got to be a way, for instance, to get my blood pressure meds refilled without having to wait 2 days (the weekend) before my doctor okays it. Am I supposed to go to the ER or an Urgent Care for this?


Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better
 
2012-12-16 12:28:17 PM  

Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better


Or the fact that any medicine Schedule III or above can be called in by the on-call provider for your family physician after hours anyway.
 
2012-12-16 12:29:18 PM  

uttertosh: diaphoresis: Inaccurate non-sequitur to hide behind. /yawn

ditto, baby, ditto.


Awww.. ran out of things to say? Pity...

/just when I thought you had an IQ over -5,000,000
 
2012-12-16 12:44:06 PM  

Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better


BronyMedic: Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better

Or the fact that any medicine Schedule III or above can be called in by the on-call provider for your family physician after hours anyway.


I'm talking about when I've got zero refills, and what the hell is a Schedule III medicine?
 
2012-12-16 12:46:00 PM  

farkeruk: Bad_Seed: I think there used to be a monolithic Government-Runs-It-All system, way back in the day, but subsequent governments have kept reforming it. There are some conservatives who want to get rid of the whole thing and have a more American system (or at least there used to be until it became apparent how badly that works), but they can't say that outright because of how extremely popular the NHS is. People are really attached to this idea of universal healthcare, free at the point of service. Despite all the bureaucratic crap behind the scenes, a patient can get anything from a routine check-up to full blow long term care without anybody asking "do you have insurance?" or without any money changing hands, and God help any politician who would want to get rid of that. So instead they keep changing things here and there, creating fake "internal markets", adding layers of management to make sure everyone "hits their targets" and a lot of crap like that. Some of it actually helps, but it leaves the whole system a bit complicated and convoluted.

The Conservative proposal is actually a lot closer to what France has. You still get treatment for free, but you choose who provides it. And this time it isn't a fake internal market, it's a real market where your GP pays for a treatment with a provider.

The NHS is a mixed bag. There's some great places (I'll single out the JR hospital in Oxford as exemplary) but some hospitals are a farking disaster. The difference between public and private sector is always that failing parts of an organisation don't get dealt with in the public sector. They are left to fester, especially if the performance measurements are wrong and easy to game (ER waiting times were manipulated by some hospitals having people waiting in ambulances).


under the farking disaster category:

Oldchurch Hospital, Romford. Literally old, always had bad service, infection problems, long wait times etc etc. Solution: Build a new one over the road, start from scratch. Fark: they moved all the existing staff and mobile equipment, and the systems. So it's still just as bad, just newer. Oh, and the building, which was paid for by us taxpayers, is only leased for 20 years then goes back to the developer who will turn it into retail and apartment space. Go figure.
 
2012-12-16 12:48:03 PM  

diaphoresis: /just when I thought you had an IQ over -5,000,000


oh, snap.
 
2012-12-16 12:48:03 PM  

Wodan11: Some industries simply don't have traditional weekends. Entertainment, services, hospitality, catering/restaurants, etc. If you don't like working weekends, don't go into one of those fields. Otherwise, get over yourself.


Routine care can be done on the weekdays.

I had a kidney stone lithotripsey done. Would it have been convenient to have it done on a Saturday? Sure. But there was no reason it couldn't wait until Thursday.

And I do know some people who went into certain medical fields because it gave them pretty much a standard work week.

/lithotripsy it sucked either way.
 
2012-12-16 12:55:04 PM  
Shoot'm like a horse!
 
2012-12-16 12:56:06 PM  

offmymeds: Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better

BronyMedic: Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better

Or the fact that any medicine Schedule III or above can be called in by the on-call provider for your family physician after hours anyway.

I'm talking about when I've got zero refills, and what the hell is a Schedule III medicine?


So, with your heart meds that you take on a daily basis, did you just glumly sit there whe you received your last refill? You knew you needed a refill, why wait until you have zero pills left?
 
2012-12-16 12:59:51 PM  

offmymeds: I'm talking about when I've got zero refills


Any medicine that you take on a regular basis, and you are already established as taking, should be able to get a temporary refil for the next few days called in by the on-call nurse for that clinic provided its not a Schedule II Narcotic, like Morphine or Ritalin.

offmymeds: and what the hell is a Schedule III medicine?


Drugs with addictive or abuse potential in the United States are classified under Schedules depending on their danger of dependence and abuse. Schedule II drugs require a written prescription each time they are refilled.
 
2012-12-16 01:01:08 PM  

Fano: offmymeds: Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better

BronyMedic: Fano: Probably if you didn't wait until you were out of pills to ask for a refill you might do better

Or the fact that any medicine Schedule III or above can be called in by the on-call provider for your family physician after hours anyway.

I'm talking about when I've got zero refills, and what the hell is a Schedule III medicine?

So, with your heart meds that you take on a daily basis, did you just glumly sit there whe you received your last refill? You knew you needed a refill, why wait until you have zero pills left?


It's not heart meds. It's meds for high blood pressure. Sometimes people, such as myself, forget about even the simplest things.
 
2012-12-16 01:01:45 PM  

diaphoresis: Hmmm.. circular argument. Not suprising.

Ah, ad homenim rhetorical retort. Not surprising.

Inaccurate non-sequitur to hide behind. /yawn



My argument was not circular

Your retort was both ad homenim and rhetorical.

Your last statement is, thus, invalid.

Please do present us with these 'Facts' that I am "afraid" of. I'd love to flex my knowledge on the subject, as a former employee of the NHS in the United Kingdom.

/136
 
2012-12-16 01:03:11 PM  

BronyMedic: offmymeds: I'm talking about when I've got zero refills

Any medicine that you take on a regular basis, and you are already established as taking, should be able to get a temporary refil for the next few days called in by the on-call nurse for that clinic provided its not a Schedule II Narcotic, like Morphine or Ritalin.

offmymeds: and what the hell is a Schedule III medicine?

Drugs with addictive or abuse potential in the United States are classified under Schedules depending on their danger of dependence and abuse. Schedule II drugs require a written prescription each time they are refilled.


Thank you.
 
2012-12-16 01:07:43 PM  
showing patients in England were 16% more likely to die if they were admitted on a Sunday, rather than mid-week.

Be a good little sheeple and sod off. I'll be in on Monday if you're still alive wot! I can hardly wait for Obama care. Thanks liberturds.
 
2012-12-16 01:08:53 PM  
I never understood this myself. In America, if people are so concerned about how much healthcare costs, then there should be a low-cost alternative to the ER that is open beyond 5 days a week during business hours. Most people can't afford to miss work for a cold, or wait hours at the dr's office after having an appt. It just makes absolutely no sense. And for some reason, my kids ALWAYS get sick on Friday night, it never fails.
 
2012-12-16 01:10:03 PM  

OscarTamerz: Be a good little sheeple and sod off. I'll be in on Monday if you're still alive wot! I can hardly wait for Obama care. Thanks liberturds.


This just in: Attending physicians don't hang around the hospital afterhours. Their biatchesResidents do.
 
2012-12-16 01:10:23 PM  

THE GREAT NAME: lewismarktwo: Whereas here you just don't get the services unless you would be rich enough to afford supplemental health care in GB anyway. But socialism.

Here if you are rich enough to pay for private treatment, you get to pay twice. But conservatism, I guess.


Begs the question: why would anyone choose to pay twice?
 
2012-12-16 01:10:49 PM  

uttertosh: diaphoresis: Hmmm.. circular argument. Not suprising.

Ah, ad homenim rhetorical retort. Not surprising.

Inaccurate non-sequitur to hide behind. /yawn


My argument was not circular

Your retort was both ad homenim and rhetorical.

Your last statement is, thus, invalid.

Please do present us with these 'Facts' that I am "afraid" of. I'd love to flex my knowledge on the subject, as a former employee of the NHS in the United Kingdom.

/136


You have just made my involvement unnecessary. Congratulations. You win.. or lose.. depends on your perspective.
 
2012-12-16 01:24:12 PM  

diaphoresis: You have just made my involvement unnecessary


Explanation required. Or, at least expand further than banal rhetoric.
 
2012-12-16 01:28:24 PM  

Spade: Some routine care can be done on the weekdays.

I had a kidney stone lithotripsey done. Would it have been convenient to have it done on a Saturday? Sure. But there was no reason it couldn't wait until Thursday.


FTFY.

And, "no reason" except the agonizing pain you were in, and you had to wait for 5 more days? Kidney stones aren't fun.
 
2012-12-16 01:28:59 PM  
C) lie back and think of England
 
2012-12-16 01:33:59 PM  

diaphoresis:

so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

Yes but the ones requiring immediate attention are looked after just fine at 2am sunday.. it is non-urgent care they are talking about providing 7 days.

So shush.
 
2012-12-16 01:37:34 PM  

NotoriousFire:
Because your doctor doesn't want to work 70 hours a week - he wants to work 50 hours a week, or however many he currently is. Believe it or not, people do not want to work 7 days a week. Preposterous, I know. Most of us get a weekend of some form. The doctors (and nurses, etc, etc) all want one too.


Yeah, but why does it have to fall on the weekend? Some of them can take a couple of days off in the middle of the week, with rotating shifts of staff available at all times. Works fine for retail workers, hotel workers etc.

I'm actually shocked by this article. I just assumed hospitals were fully staffed at all times.
 
2012-12-16 01:43:54 PM  

Max Awesome: I'm actually shocked by this article. I just assumed hospitals were fully staffed at all times.


Ha. Hell, this is about weekends? Most folks don't even realize that major hospitals cut their direct care and ancillary staff by a large percentage every night. And that's not because the patients are less sick when the sun is down.
 
2012-12-16 02:05:19 PM  

BronyMedic: Well. I've got a solution, but it's going to piss the nursing establishment and the IAFF Union boys off.



Community Care Paramedics, and treat and discharge in the field would go a long way towards relieving the burden people have on ERs in modern countries.


Sorry, I'm late to the conversation but THIS ...

It's unfortunate that when we (the U.S.) had the opportunity and wide spread support to do so, we didn't put healthcare change in place. Instead we changed who got the money and how much they got. Somebody upthread told us their doctor's office advised them to go to the ER for their daughter's broken arm. That's a good example. Instead of having a unified treatment system in place starting with the first call to 911 through any long term or after care, we have a miss-matched set of resources, that change from place to place, which results in people requesting ambulance transport (or walking in) to ERs on the week-ends for medication re-fills, long term aches and pains and minor medical problems that do not require a hospital. Low income folks go any day of the week for the same, not just the week-ends. The problem is compounded when certain groups do not want to give up their turf in order to build a more complete system or have to worry about unknown quantities such as socialism capitalism Lawyers.
 
2012-12-16 02:10:18 PM  
We in Britain spend half of what America spends per-capita on healthcare. For that we get the NHS.

Thats the NHS for half the price of the American system.
 
2012-12-16 02:17:36 PM  

duffblue: CygnusDarius: Soshalzm!

Something like 47% of Americans don't pay income tax, the system works.


Mitt?
 
2012-12-16 02:18:46 PM  

xtrc8u: BronyMedic: Well. I've got a solution, but it's going to piss the nursing establishment and the IAFF Union boys off.



Community Care Paramedics, and treat and discharge in the field would go a long way towards relieving the burden people have on ERs in modern countries.

Sorry, I'm late to the conversation but THIS ...

It's unfortunate that when we (the U.S.) had the opportunity and wide spread support to do so, we didn't put healthcare change in place. Instead we changed who got the money and how much they got. Somebody upthread told us their doctor's office advised them to go to the ER for their daughter's broken arm. That's a good example. Instead of having a unified treatment system in place starting with the first call to 911 through any long term or after care, we have a miss-matched set of resources, that change from place to place, which results in people requesting ambulance transport (or walking in) to ERs on the week-ends for medication re-fills, long term aches and pains and minor medical problems that do not require a hospital. Low income folks go any day of the week for the same, not just the week-ends. The problem is compounded when certain groups do not want to give up their turf in order to build a more complete system or have to worry about unknown quantities such as socialism capitalism Lawyers.


Or the fact that you'll literally have people call 911 because they have had a low grade fever for two hours, and have not taken tylenol at all, at three in the morning, but people who are having heart attacks will drive themselves to the hospital.
 
2012-12-16 02:19:03 PM  

Norfolking Chance: We in Britain spend half of what America spends per-capita on healthcare. For that we get the NHS.

Thats the NHS for half the price of the American system.


And a quarter of the quality!

/Win?
 
2012-12-16 02:23:10 PM  

orbister: The Stealth Hippopotamus: That's easy, they just need to wait.

Grandfather-in-law got to wait 6 months for hip replacement after shattering his hip.

That probably just means that they had to wait for the fracture to heal before replacing the hip joint.


No no! It COULDN'T have been a medical decision! It was SOSHIALIST BUREAUCRATS!
 
2012-12-16 02:24:38 PM  

Norfolking Chance: We in Britain spend half of what America spends per-capita on healthcare. For that we get the NHS.

Thats the NHS for half the price of the American system.


But it's SOSHULISM. We pay double and cover fewer people, but we like it like that.
 
2012-12-16 02:53:57 PM  

BafflerMeal: Fizpez: farkeruk: skinink: These doctors make how much money, but they can't work weekends? Poor minimum wage retail workers probably work one weekend day, if not both.

I'm going to have zero sympathy when robotic surgery and automatic diagnosis take over. Doctors are some of the most entitled motherfarkers I have ever dealt with and nurses are some of the most arrogant people I've dealt with. Had a serious medical problem for months and kept going back. Not once did I feel like they were doing any more than the minimum they had to. And a lot of them are useless at diagnosis. They just guess at things rather than asking for a full set of symptoms.

Are you farking kidding me? There are four nurses in my immediate family (+1 first cousin). They are some of the kindest, caring people I have ever met. The fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM has told stories of 14 hour shifts where they didnt even has so much as time to pee, let alone eat anything leads me to believe you are either lying your ass off or have had the unbelievable luck to the see the same sour-assed three nurses your entire life.

Personally at some point in a 14 hour shift I would have told my patients to fark off because I'm going to eat a sandwich while sitting on a toilet for the next 3 minutes... but that's just me.


The same bell curve or people from your high school is in every profession. Every profession. Reducing people in a profession to an archetype is folly. Whether they are soldiers, bankers, nurses, doctors, or supermarket checkout people. The are good ones, bad ones, charitable ones, biatchy ones, etc... in every slice.

/hell some of the 9/11 first responders were looting for jebus sake, and look at how they have been reduced to the abstract...


This is probably the most important and true thing that has been or will be said in this thread. I've heard it referred to as the "10% rule" in that generally 10% of people are total shiatheads no matter where you go. But people have 1 negative experience with someone in a group and it paints that entire group as bad for them. Or they have an inflated view of a group and then are astonished or in disbelief when they hear about someone in that group farking up. But the truth is in the middle. Whether it's actually 10% or not is obviously not clear, but some small percentage o people in general make up the troublemakers. They're the criminals, liars, thieves, power-hungry, sociopaths. And unless you're specifically seeking them out (like looking in prison populations) you'll run into roughly the same amount no matter where you look.
 
2012-12-16 02:57:46 PM  

farkeruk: I find it weird that they don't. A lot of the stuff in hospitals (X-Ray machines, MRI scanners etc) cost a farking fortune. The buildings, cleaning etc are all high fixed costs.

Look at hotels - they run 7 days a week and always aim for maximum occupancy (which is why hotels are so cheap in cities on weekends). At present, we're missing out on at least 2/7ths of capacity (and if you include evenings, even more than that).


Things last longer if you don't use them 24/7.
 
2012-12-16 02:59:41 PM  
So I don't quite get it... are there not enough trained medical staff available to cover the weekends? Or is it that nobody's hired enough of them to work weekends?
 
2012-12-16 03:00:13 PM  

Bad_Seed: BronyMedic: offmymeds: How is it any different here in the US?

Because MDs that work in hospitals and most clinics in UK are typically employed by the NHS as Government Employees, unless they are in private practice which isn't very common.

It's a lot more complicated than that. Doctors are typically employed by "Trusts" which run hospitals and primary clinics. They get paid by the government on the basis of services they provide (probably similar to Medicare, but with less fiddling). There are plenty of private practices, and many of those do work for the NHS as well, or doctors who do some work for the NHS and some privately.



fee for service? NHS?
try mostly salary and capitation payment plus government pension. medicare is straight fee for service. you get paid for the work you do.

I'd take just about any single payer system from the industrialized countries, save the NHS and the one in switzerland.
turning doctors into government employees is a nightmare idea for america.
the NHS doctors over there went on strike this summer. the doctors went on strike. think about that.

turning every doctor into a government employee and payment and staffing levels into a political football over here do to political ties to unions would be crazy.

/we should have single payer universal in the u.s., but the government should continue to be simply a third party payor, not an employer that becomes required to save the jobs and incomes of an extraordinarily powerful interest group.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jun/21/doctors-strike-pension s- hospitals-gp-surgeries
Hospital doctors and GPs are taking industrial action on Thursday in protest at the government pushing through changes to their pensions that they regard both as unfair and unnecessary.

The government has claimed that up to 30,000 operations could be cancelled and 1.25m GP appointments postponed as a result of the strike, which was due to start at midnight. The figures cannot be verified as the Department of Health has asked NHS trusts not to reveal details to the media.
 
2012-12-16 03:03:16 PM  

relcec: derp redacted


Are you just going to keep lying like this? Have you no shame?
 
2012-12-16 03:03:23 PM  

BafflerMeal: Max Awesome: I'm actually shocked by this article. I just assumed hospitals were fully staffed at all times.

Ha. Hell, this is about weekends? Most folks don't even realize that major hospitals cut their direct care and ancillary staff by a large percentage every night. And that's not because the patients are less sick when the sun is down.


they are often sleeping though. procedures aren't scheduled. etc. why have the same amount of people for less work at night?
 
2012-12-16 03:05:00 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: duffblue: CygnusDarius: Soshalzm!

Something like 47% of Americans don't pay income tax, the system works.

Mitt?


and your the one who wants all the services.
you should be more outraged by that fact than anyone.
you know why the era of big government is over? all you cheap ass motherf*ckers.
 
2012-12-16 03:09:27 PM  

relcec: and your the one who wants all the services.
you should be more outraged by that fact than anyone.
you know why the era of big government is over? all you cheap ass motherf*ckersBig Government is only good when it imposes my morality on people who don't feel the same as I do, like in the bedroom or the privacy of your own home. Or in the womb.


Fixed that for you.
 
2012-12-16 03:12:26 PM  

relcec: Hospital doctors and GPs are taking industrial action on Thursday in protest at the government pushing through changes to their pensions that they regard both as unfair and unnecessary.


your link:
Doctors will not be picketing their own workplaces. Unlike other industrial disputes, they will still attend their hospital or surgery as usual.

Even doctors taking part in the action will continue to deal with urgent and emergency cases, so it should be business as usual in A&E departments, maternity units, for renal (kidney) and cancer patients, and anyone needing an urgent diagnostic test or end-of-life care.


So, really nobody stops working. It's not like coal strikes of the 70's, mate. Yes, they're taking industrial action, but nobody will be put in danger because of this. And it's still better than what goes on in America.

nice try, though.
 
2012-12-16 03:14:25 PM  

BronyMedic: relcec: and your the one who wants all the services.
you should be more outraged by that fact than anyone.
you know why the era of big government is over? all you cheap ass motherf*ckersBig Government is only good when it imposes my morality on people who don't feel the same as I do, like in the bedroom or the privacy of your own home. Or in the womb.

Fixed that for you.


shouldn't you be licking cruiser12's cop boots in some other thread about now?
authoritarian dbag.
 
2012-12-16 03:25:22 PM  

uttertosh: relcec: Hospital doctors and GPs are taking industrial action on Thursday in protest at the government pushing through changes to their pensions that they regard both as unfair and unnecessary.

your link: Doctors will not be picketing their own workplaces. Unlike other industrial disputes, they will still attend their hospital or surgery as usual.

Even doctors taking part in the action will continue to deal with urgent and emergency cases, so it should be business as usual in A&E departments, maternity units, for renal (kidney) and cancer patients, and anyone needing an urgent diagnostic test or end-of-life care.

So, really nobody stops working. It's not like coal strikes of the 70's, mate. Yes, they're taking industrial action, but nobody will be put in danger because of this. And it's still better than what goes on in America.

nice try, though.


nice try? I beg you reconsider.
30,000 operations cancelled. and you have no idea if anyone will be hurt. putting off non emergent surgery often has terrible consequences. I've seen in it in my own family.

when the government worker miners struck you had winters without heat in f*cking england which is the same latitude as Alaska. your government had to move to a 3 day work week to save resources. the BBC which was your only tv station was forced to shutdown at 10:30 pm to save electricity. all because you had the government wrapped u in securing employment for an entire industry.

it's an awful awful idea to get the government wrapped up with ensuring the direct employment and livelihoods of entire sectors of workers when you don't absolutely have to. and since doctors are so powerful in their own right it would be the ultimate nightmare here.

the NHS does good work, but if we are switching to something else eventually there huge reasons to avoid your way. your way is ultimately one of the dumbest possible. there are so many wll thought out systems. thats an awful system.
 
2012-12-16 03:34:51 PM  

relcec: shouldn't you be licking cruiser12's cop boots in some other thread about now?
authoritarian dbag.


Shouldn't you be working on another American Thinker article, you right winged douche?

i811.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-16 03:39:29 PM  

relcec: when the government worker miners struck you had winters without heat in f*cking england which is the same latitude as Alaska. your government had to move to a 3 day work week to save resources. the BBC which was your only tv station was forced to shutdown at 10:30 pm to save electricity. all because you had the government wrapped u in securing employment for an entire industry.


this is nothing to do with that.

your link: The amount of planned care postponed varies from one hospital to another. Health Service Journal reports that Wythenshawe hospital in Manchester, for example, is cancelling no operations but has rescheduled 15 outpatient appointments; University Hospital of North Staffordshire expects to cancel just three non-urgent operations and eight non-urgent outpatient appointments; Peterborough and Stamford Foundation Trust had postponed two operations and 53 outpatient appointment but thought that number might rise.

Yeah, just like the coal strikes. WAT?

"We've had calls to our helpline - though tens rather than the hundreds and hundreds we were expecting - from people who've had surgery or an appointment cancelled and told it's being rescheduled for another time.

Ooooh! This is a DISASTER! Socialized medicine is a sham that can never be brought to the USA. EVAARR!!!

These 'cancelled operations aren't really cancelled, they're resheduled, most within the following weeks, and if after assessment, the patient's condition is considered life endangering, the doctors will ALWAYS be there to act.

Yeah, socialized medicine is evil because doctors can take industrial action against the government doing illegal shiat to their pensions.

Stick it up your arse.
 
2012-12-16 03:43:04 PM  

uttertosh: relcec: when the government worker miners struck you had winters without heat in f*cking england which is the same latitude as Alaska. your government had to move to a 3 day work week to save resources. the BBC which was your only tv station was forced to shutdown at 10:30 pm to save electricity. all because you had the government wrapped u in securing employment for an entire industry.

this is nothing to do with that.

your link: The amount of planned care postponed varies from one hospital to another. Health Service Journal reports that Wythenshawe hospital in Manchester, for example, is cancelling no operations but has rescheduled 15 outpatient appointments; University Hospital of North Staffordshire expects to cancel just three non-urgent operations and eight non-urgent outpatient appointments; Peterborough and Stamford Foundation Trust had postponed two operations and 53 outpatient appointment but thought that number might rise.

Yeah, just like the coal strikes. WAT?

"We've had calls to our helpline - though tens rather than the hundreds and hundreds we were expecting - from people who've had surgery or an appointment cancelled and told it's being rescheduled for another time.

Ooooh! This is a DISASTER! Socialized medicine is a sham that can never be brought to the USA. EVAARR!!!

These 'cancelled operations aren't really cancelled, they're resheduled, most within the following weeks, and if after assessment, the patient's condition is considered life endangering, the doctors will ALWAYS be there to act.

Yeah, socialized medicine is evil because doctors can take industrial action against the government doing illegal shiat to their pensions.

Stick it up your arse.


Meanwhile in the USA, those with shiatty insurance or no insurance have to reschedule their non-emergent surgeries to... well, never. Unless they want to use their retirement, or their kid's college fund.
 
2012-12-16 03:44:59 PM  

namegoeshere: Meanwhile in the USA, those with shiatty insurance or no insurance have to reschedule their non-emergent surgeries to... well, never. Unless they want to use their retirement, or their kid's college fund.


This.

So much this.

This is what pissed me off SO MUCH about the Affordable Care Act. What was ostensibly designed to be a single payor system with the option to continue to buy health insurance if you chose to became what it is today.
 
2012-12-16 03:46:55 PM  
The UK's 10,000 GP surgeries are likely to be less affected than hospitals. "All GP surgeries will be open but the majority will be unaffected by the industrial action and in the others they will be open and taking emergency calls", said Royles.

So there are ~5-10 doctors per practice. Yup, everyone in the UK is going to die because SOCIALISM.

Stick your sensationalist WHARGARBL even further up your arse. C'mon I wanna see the W poking out your mouth.
 
2012-12-16 03:47:51 PM  

namegoeshere: Meanwhile in the USA, those with shiatty insurance or no insurance have to reschedule their non-emergent surgeries to... well, never. Unless they want to use their retirement, or their kid's college fund.


My point made for me. :-)
 
2012-12-16 04:17:53 PM  

Bad_Seed: It's a lot more complicated than that. Doctors are typically employed by "Trusts" which run hospitals and primary clinics. They get paid by the government on the basis of services they provide (probably similar to Medicare, but with less fiddling).


To add to the confusion, many GPs are partners in private practices which are contracted to provide services to the NHS, while many are employed either directly by healthcare trusts or indirectly through the aforementioned partnerships.
 
2012-12-16 04:18:05 PM  

diaphoresis: BronyMedic: diaphoresis: Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays...

And anyone with an emergency can too in the UK.

Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.

so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

/Going to the doctor with sniffles, you would be right
//Paper cut? You'd be right again.



Several years ago I went to an urgent care center because I had crippling sciatica in my right leg. There was a woman there waiting to see a doctor for a paper cut. She said she was worried that it might get infected. I thought she must be effing joking to need a doctor's care for a superficial wound AND to submit the $100 medical bill to her insurance company. Geez, just use some neosporin or bactine or something and wrap it with a bandaid!

To be fair, she was however kind enough to let me go before her when patients were being called in to the exam rooms.  She recognized my pain being greater than hers.
 
2012-12-16 04:25:38 PM  

BronyMedic: The problem is that you're describing very limited resources, like MRI scanners and ICU care. They have to be rationed out as necessary to allow them to help the most people possible.


That is, indeed, my point. It's a waste to have these expensive resources unused, or in limited use for emergencies, overnight and at weekends. If you train another radiographer, or another ICU nurce, or another surgeon, it makes better financial sense to use the new staff to run existing facilities for more of the time than to build new facilities.

At any rate, you're describing time critical emergency situations. Many of those doctors take call shifts at their hospital, or come in from home when the ER attending sees they need that care. Most people who present to the ER, above 90% of them, are not those cases.

You may be getting mislead by the rather odd healthcare system in the US. In the UK, most people who go to A&E (Accident and Emergency, our name for an ER) are there because of, well, and accident or an emergency. We all have 24 hour cover through our GPs and/or NHS Direct (in England) or NHS 24 (in Scotland). You phone up and speak to a nurse. S/he will then either arrange an out-of-hours appointment at a local hospital (not A&E - a separate, booked clinic), or send a doctor round, or send an ambulance round, or give holding advice and tell you to see your doctor in the morning.
 
2012-12-16 04:28:12 PM  

BronyMedic: You do know the philosophy of social democracy and altruistic support of the poor and disadvantaged is completely different than Socialism, right?


You do know that most americans have fallen so completely for bogeyman socialism-is-evil rhetoric that they wouldn't know it if it bit them on the bum? Right?
 
2012-12-16 04:31:56 PM  

farkeruk: The difference between public and private sector is always that failing parts of an organisation don't get dealt with in the public sector.


There is some appalling private healthcare in the UK too. Mainly the bits doing elective surgery or rich people and shoving their problems off onto the NHS. Staff levels can be truly dreadful in the private sector.

Some, not all. Can be, not are.
 
2012-12-16 04:33:18 PM  

Spade: I had a kidney stone lithotripsey done. Would it have been convenient to have it done on a Saturday? Sure. But there was no reason it couldn't wait until Thursday.


If the machine had been running 24/7 you might have had your stones shattered a lot earlier.
 
2012-12-16 05:15:43 PM  

relcec: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: duffblue: CygnusDarius: Soshalzm!

Something like 47% of Americans don't pay income tax, the system works.

Mitt?

and your the one who wants all the services.
you should be more outraged by that fact than anyone.
you know why the era of big government is over? all you cheap ass motherf*ckers.


Ummm. No, I'm not the one that wants all the services. If you've seen me in other threads, you would know my political leanings.
The 'Mitt' response was humor.
 
2012-12-16 05:15:58 PM  

relcec: uttertosh: relcec: Hospital doctors and GPs are taking industrial action on Thursday in protest at the government pushing through changes to their pensions that they regard both as unfair and unnecessary.

your link: Doctors will not be picketing their own workplaces. Unlike other industrial disputes, they will still attend their hospital or surgery as usual.

Even doctors taking part in the action will continue to deal with urgent and emergency cases, so it should be business as usual in A&E departments, maternity units, for renal (kidney) and cancer patients, and anyone needing an urgent diagnostic test or end-of-life care.

So, really nobody stops working. It's not like coal strikes of the 70's, mate. Yes, they're taking industrial action, but nobody will be put in danger because of this. And it's still better than what goes on in America.

nice try, though.

nice try? I beg you reconsider.
30,000 operations cancelled. and you have no idea if anyone will be hurt. putting off non emergent surgery often has terrible consequences. I've seen in it in my own family.

when the government worker miners struck you had winters without heat in f*cking england which is the same latitude as Alaska. your government had to move to a 3 day work week to save resources. the BBC which was your only tv station was forced to shutdown at 10:30 pm to save electricity. all because you had the government wrapped u in securing employment for an entire industry.

it's an awful awful idea to get the government wrapped up with ensuring the direct employment and livelihoods of entire sectors of workers when you don't absolutely have to. and since doctors are so powerful in their own right it would be the ultimate nightmare here.

the NHS does good work, but if we are switching to something else eventually there huge reasons to avoid your way. your way is ultimately one of the dumbest possible. there are so many wll thought out systems. thats an awful system.


---

Why don't you explain the reasons the doctors threaten the strike action? Namely because they are now forced to work until they are 68 and much higher pension payments have been mandated. I don't see how doctors would not be upset or threaten industrial action if this was done in the private sector.

In any case, nobody's life was put in danger even if the doctors did go on strike as only non-emergency appointments were cancelled.
 
2012-12-16 05:17:55 PM  

orbister: You do know that most americans have fallen so completely for bogeyman socialism-is-evil rhetoric that they wouldn't know it if it bit them on the bum? Right?


Touche, Sir. Touche.
 
2012-12-16 05:22:58 PM  

bazzanoid: farkeruk: Bad_Seed: I think there used to be a monolithic Government-Runs-It-All system, way back in the day, but subsequent governments have kept reforming it. There are some conservatives who want to get rid of the whole thing and have a more American system (or at least there used to be until it became apparent how badly that works), but they can't say that outright because of how extremely popular the NHS is. People are really attached to this idea of universal healthcare, free at the point of service. Despite all the bureaucratic crap behind the scenes, a patient can get anything from a routine check-up to full blow long term care without anybody asking "do you have insurance?" or without any money changing hands, and God help any politician who would want to get rid of that. So instead they keep changing things here and there, creating fake "internal markets", adding layers of management to make sure everyone "hits their targets" and a lot of crap like that. Some of it actually helps, but it leaves the whole system a bit complicated and convoluted.

The Conservative proposal is actually a lot closer to what France has. You still get treatment for free, but you choose who provides it. And this time it isn't a fake internal market, it's a real market where your GP pays for a treatment with a provider.

The NHS is a mixed bag. There's some great places (I'll single out the JR hospital in Oxford as exemplary) but some hospitals are a farking disaster. The difference between public and private sector is always that failing parts of an organisation don't get dealt with in the public sector. They are left to fester, especially if the performance measurements are wrong and easy to game (ER waiting times were manipulated by some hospitals having people waiting in ambulances).

under the farking disaster category:

Oldchurch Hospital, Romford. Literally old, always had bad service, infection problems, long wait times etc etc. Solution: Build a new one over the road, ...


...That's worrying. I'm waiting on getting my knee fixed at Queens, which is the replacement, I think...?

Still, it can't possibly be as bad as Basildon Hospital, right? ....Right?
 
2012-12-16 05:34:43 PM  
"The setting up of the group follows research that suggests patients are more likely to die if they are admitted to hospital over the weekend."

Maybe because hooligans are more likely to get drunk, hurt themselves, and end up in the hospital on the weekend? Where is this research study.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-12-16 05:54:52 PM  
If you train another radiographer, or another ICU nurce, or another surgeon, it makes better financial sense to use the new staff to run existing facilities for more of the time than to build new facilities.

Massachusetts rations fancy equipment to prevent the situation where every hospital and big doctor's office has a suite of million dollar machines inviting everybody to justify their use with more billable tests.
 
2012-12-16 06:45:18 PM  
I don't understand Subby's complaint.
I live in FreedomLand USA, and outside of emergencies I can't see any of my doctors on weekends. In fact, one of them only works 4 days a week. I have to go to Urgent Care, which is also not open 24/7 (most of them close at 5-6pm on weekends), or the ER. Is Subby implying that Socialist UK doesn't have ERs or Urgent Care because they're blighted with Teh Socialisms?
 
2012-12-16 06:46:13 PM  

iserlohn: Why don't you explain the reasons the doctors threaten the strike action?


Because he's deliberately cherry-picking something he thought proved his point, but iaf (once you read past the sensationalist bullet-pointing of the Guardian's hack at the beginning), the article actually weakens his stance tremendously.

It's also why he's not responded to me.
 
2012-12-16 07:20:53 PM  

diaphoresis: Spade: I can understand why you'd want X-Ray, CT, and such on the weekends for emergencies, but why "routine surgery"? That shiat can wait until Monday, I'm sure.


diaphoresis: so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

Go talk to some ER staff or EMTs. A lot of people who either don't have primary care docs (for whatever reason) or can't see them because they're closed end up showing up at the ER for crap. And, of course, they can't look at them and say "Are you farking stupid?" and just send them home. And that doesn't count the people just looking to score some free painkillers.

/if you're not broken or bleeding

I have spent very little time in ER's (lucky I suppose), but when I have been, it's always seemed people were limping, bloody, had children who were sick, or things of the like. I don't remember seeing anyone who looked uninjured.. seen a few that looked like they sleep on subways, but looked injured nonetheless. Again, not enough knowledge to say 95% of ER visits are unnecessary. I'll have to defer to your entensive knowledge on this one.


Most of the malingerers come in by ambulance. About half the idiots with no real problem, but we have to work up anyway come in that way too. At my hospital pretty much everybody that comes in via ambulance gets roomed directly and so you wouldn't see them waiting in the lobby.

I don't know what the ratio of true emergencies to BS I see, but it's probably about 1/2 BS, and most of the non-BS is stuff that could be taken care of in an Urgent Care, or at home if people weren't idiots.
 
2012-12-16 07:24:19 PM  

Nemo's Brother: diaphoresis: BronyMedic: diaphoresis: Afraid of the facts, are we? I can see a doctor even on Sundays...

And anyone with an emergency can too in the UK.

Let's be frank here. 95% of the people who want to see a doctor on Saturday are not a medical emergency, or even a time critical condition.

so, tough it out til Monday? Pull up your bootstraps and hang tough? I don't have enough data to suggest what types/kinds of injuries require 'immediate attention', but I'm guessing it's not 95% bs..

/Going to the doctor with sniffles, you would be right
//Paper cut? You'd be right again.

Liberals will make up statistics to defend their ridiculous stands
.


I love it when Rethuglicans project, it's so cute.
 
2012-12-16 11:19:32 PM  

BronyMedic: Well. I've got a solution, but it's going to piss the nursing establishment and the IAFF Union boys off.



Community Care Paramedics, and treat and discharge in the field would go a long way towards relieving the burden people have on ERs in modern countries.


Why would that piss off the nursing community?

Look, it takes a BSN 5 1/2 years to earn a bachelor's degree in Nursing (at least where I live anyhow..the state board is INSANE).

We dont get paid enough for our level of expertise as it is...perhaps if the simple shiat got delegated to the less qualified...to the people who SHOULD earn less...then it will free up nurses to be able to do actual medical care, and that would mean more of a reason nurses should be paid more.

/is a nurse
//starting P.A. school in 3 weeks
///tired of not being paid what I'm really worth.
 
2012-12-16 11:23:12 PM  

orbister: The Stealth Hippopotamus: That's easy, they just need to wait.

Grandfather-in-law got to wait 6 months for hip replacement after shattering his hip.

That probably just means that they had to wait for the fracture to heal before replacing the hip joint.


This. You can't replace a hip when the ischium is shattered. You have to wait for the supporting bone(s) to heal first, or else the replacement is pointless anyhow.
 
2012-12-17 12:33:43 AM  

relcec: uttertosh: relcec: Hospital doctors and GPs are taking industrial action on Thursday in protest at the government pushing through changes to their pensions that they regard both as unfair and unnecessary.

your link: Doctors will not be picketing their own workplaces. Unlike other industrial disputes, they will still attend their hospital or surgery as usual.

Even doctors taking part in the action will continue to deal with urgent and emergency cases, so it should be business as usual in A&E departments, maternity units, for renal (kidney) and cancer patients, and anyone needing an urgent diagnostic test or end-of-life care.

So, really nobody stops working. It's not like coal strikes of the 70's, mate. Yes, they're taking industrial action, but nobody will be put in danger because of this. And it's still better than what goes on in America.

nice try, though.

nice try? I beg you reconsider.
30,000 operations cancelled. and you have no idea if anyone will be hurt. putting off non emergent surgery often has terrible consequences. I've seen in it in my own family.

when the government worker miners struck you had winters without heat in f*cking england which is the same latitude as Alaska. your government had to move to a 3 day work week to save resources. the BBC which was your only tv station was forced to shutdown at 10:30 pm to save electricity. all because you had the government wrapped u in securing employment for an entire industry.

it's an awful awful idea to get the government wrapped up with ensuring the direct employment and livelihoods of entire sectors of workers when you don't absolutely have to. and since doctors are so powerful in their own right it would be the ultimate nightmare here.

the NHS does good work, but if we are switching to something else eventually there huge reasons to avoid your way. your way is ultimately one of the dumbest possible. there are so many wll thought out systems. thats an awful system.


I think you are conflating different events there. I don't remember not having any heat during the miners' strike (although it may have happened for some people) - and although we may be the same latitude as Alaska we don't have the same weather because of the N. Atlantic Drift. The 3 day week and power cuts happened much earlier on, in the 70s. Nothing to do with the coal miners. Not sure that "all because you had your government wrapped up in securing employment for an entire industry" is really fair either. If you are still referring to the miners, Thatcher wasn't exactly the most popular prime minister. A lot of people hated her for privatising just about everything, and shutting down the coal mines. She went to great lengths to reduce the power of the Unions. Not all of those Unions were anything to do with government-owned industry.
 
2012-12-17 01:21:31 AM  

ZAZ: Massachusetts rations fancy equipment to prevent the situation where every hospital and big doctor's office has a suite of million dollar machines inviting everybody to justify their use with more billable tests.


What is this "billable"?

The NHS isn't perfect, but by golly we love it.
 
2012-12-17 10:18:51 AM  

BronyMedic: Computers can be used to support clinical decisions, but it will always be a human being making those decisions in the end, because medicine is NOT an exact science, and 95% of your patients will NOT fit a textbook case description.


You're lying. If that were true, we wouldn't be able to sue everyone for malpractice. Look at all the lawyer ads on television and on the back of busses. Every doctor you've met has made a mistake and owes you more money than you'd normally see in your lifetime because medicine is an exact, perfectly understood science.
 
2012-12-17 10:32:01 AM  

orbister: The NHS isn't perfect, but by golly we love it.


It's awesome, for sure! I collapsed a lung at friend's cottage, way out in the sticks of the Highlands. I can't imagine what the bill for that ambulance ride would have come to in the US, never mind the 48 hours in ICU, then 3 weeks in cardiothoracic, with a week of physiotherapy, plus all the meds. "Morphene cost's WHAT? No, I'll take some generic paracetamol and a bit to bite down on"
 
2012-12-17 02:07:58 PM  

taurusowner: Fizpez: The same bell curve or people from your high school is in every profession. Every profession. Reducing people in a profession to an archetype is folly. Whether they are soldiers, bankers, nurses, doctors, or supermarket checkout people. The are good ones, bad ones, charitable ones, biatchy ones, etc... in every slice.

/hell some of the 9/11 first responders were looting for jebus sake, and look at how they have been reduced to the abstract...

This is probably the most important and true thing that has been or will be said in this thread. I've heard it referred to as the "10% rule" in that generally 10% of people are total shiatheads no matter where you go. But people have 1 negative experience with someone in a group and it paints that entire group as bad for them. Or they have an inflated view of a group and then are astonished or in disbelief when they hear about someone in that group farking up. But the truth is in the middle. Whether it's actually 10% or not is obviously not clear, but some small percentage o people in general make up the troublemakers. They're the criminals, liars, thieves, power-hungry, sociopaths. And unless you're specifically seeking them out (like looking in prison populations) you'll run into roughly the same amount no matter where you look.


Nursing and Doctoring attracts cokeheads like moths to flame, thanks to the insane hours and stress coupled with high enough pay to afford it, so the incidence of erratic & aggressive behavior is higher than in other highly skilled professions. Even the non-abusers are probably more erratic thanks to lack of sleep and burnout, no matter how sweet and well-intentioned the person. Hospitals and war zones have a lot in common...

What is the whole idea of having 2-3 12-14 hour a shifts a week instead of spreading the hours out through the week? Do nurses just prefer the 4-day weekends every week as a reward?
 
2012-12-17 02:25:31 PM  

BronyMedic: namegoeshere: Meanwhile in the USA, those with shiatty insurance or no insurance have to reschedule their non-emergent surgeries to... well, never. Unless they want to use their retirement, or their kid's college fund.

This.

So much this.

This is what pissed me off SO MUCH about the Affordable Care Act. What was ostensibly designed to be a single payor system with the option to continue to buy health insurance if you chose to became what it is today.


It's OK. In another 30 years we'll throw it all out and start all over again, as usual, just in time for our retirements.
 
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