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(Wired)   Well, the Constitution was nice while it lasted   (wired.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, attorney generals, National Counterterrorism Center, Abdulmutallab, NCTC, Kim Zetter, registered sex offender, fantasy films, UK Threat Levels  
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13671 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Dec 2012 at 12:23 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



193 Comments   (+0 »)
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Archived thread
 
2012-12-16 08:27:32 AM  
there are no words other than...

ammon.azza.org
 
2012-12-16 09:18:58 AM  
Change we can believe in
 
2012-12-16 09:52:25 AM  
I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.
 
2012-12-16 09:52:34 AM  

cman: Change we can believe in


You think that this didn't occur before?
 
2012-12-16 10:00:53 AM  

Bontesla: cman: Change we can believe in

You think that this didn't occur before?


Oh, very well. "Stasis we can believe in."
 
2012-12-16 10:26:21 AM  

Bontesla: cman: Change we can believe in

You think that this didn't occur before?


Obama has changed absolutely nothing. Nothing! And they want their country back now that it's socialist.
 
2012-12-16 11:06:14 AM  
A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.
 
2012-12-16 11:14:11 AM  
I gotta be honest and say I find these sort of abstract intrusions on civil rights pretty hard to care about. All this information is out there, I can't really say it gets me mad they are just compiling it.
 
2012-12-16 11:20:30 AM  
>Reads headline.
>Reads article.

upload.wikimedia.org

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.
 
2012-12-16 11:21:31 AM  
Is that stuff gonna go into my Permanent Record along with that time I got caught smoking under the bleachers in high school?
 
2012-12-16 11:30:57 AM  
Information shared with a third party was never private or protected information. It's concerning, but it's not unconstitutional. We need to revisit privacy laws and make them explicit.
 
2012-12-16 11:39:08 AM  

unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.


I used to do a lot of anti-Soviet protests in the '80s and worked on the Hill for a Baltic organization. When I applied for my clearance, my interim came back in two days. That's almost unheard of. I guarantee I had a dossier.
 
2012-12-16 12:08:49 PM  
Become an active anarchist or stop your whining about it.
 
2012-12-16 12:12:38 PM  

unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.


This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.
 
2012-12-16 12:19:32 PM  
If this is the type of thing that kills the Constitution, then the Constitution has been dead for a looooooong time, subby
 
2012-12-16 12:27:29 PM  
For all the cumulative bullshiat that asshole has done, he belongs in prison.
 
2012-12-16 12:28:08 PM  
Is this the bit about government agencies being able to share the information they have on you? Because I've pretty much always assumed that if one govt agency has something on you, any other one has it too.
 
2012-12-16 12:28:46 PM  
My dossier would be a list of dirty websites I've visited and a comment that I eat too much junk food and could really use a few laps around the block.
 
2012-12-16 12:29:41 PM  
yeah, well the TSA are a bunch of cockfarks. you can put that on my record. i'll put it there myself, actually where can I mail a notarized letter saying so to make sure it's in there?
 
2012-12-16 12:29:54 PM  
We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?
 
2012-12-16 12:32:37 PM  
I just read the comments from TFA.


When did Wired turn into freerepublic.com?
 
2012-12-16 12:33:20 PM  
the Constitution has always been overrated
 
2012-12-16 12:35:28 PM  
shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.
 
2012-12-16 12:35:30 PM  
Jokes on you America. The "secret" database is called Facebook.
 
2012-12-16 12:36:12 PM  
Oh yeah?
Well, don't get so distressed.
Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?

i45.tinypic.com
 
2012-12-16 12:37:17 PM  
We can thank thoughtful insights such as "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" for shiat like this.
 
2012-12-16 12:37:34 PM  

1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.


Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?
 
2012-12-16 12:38:43 PM  
Welcome to 1960
 
2012-12-16 12:39:07 PM  

sugardave: We can thank thoughtful insights such as "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" for shiat like this.


Isn't that a senseless argument?
 
2012-12-16 12:40:06 PM  
It's a good thing that at least someone thinks this is a problem.

I'll say it again: It's a GOOD thing that at least someone thinks this is a problem.

Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?
 
2012-12-16 12:40:19 PM  
Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.
 
2012-12-16 12:41:49 PM  

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Besides, most people just aren't very interesting.
 
2012-12-16 12:42:02 PM  
just remember, they're only doing it to keep us Free and safe, wink wink.
 
2012-12-16 12:42:34 PM  
It's like every American citizen is on double-secret probation. The government did this without the knowledge of Congress but now that Congress knows about it Congress does nothing. Congress probably prefers this be in done in secret so Congress has deniability. Add this to the fact that the government can claim "national security" and prevent an accused criminal of obtaining the necessary proof of innocence.
 
2012-12-16 12:42:48 PM  
Here is my new Leader. SFW


Link
 
2012-12-16 12:44:36 PM  

badhatharry: Jokes on you America. The "secret" database is called Facebook.



lol

i was thinking that too. Corporate America has more info on us than any Government could dream of.
 
2012-12-16 12:45:22 PM  
My reaction:

Attorney General secretly granted government ability to develop and store dossiers on innocent Americans

OH SHI-

Earlier this year, Attorney General Eric Holder granted the center the ability to copy entire government databases holding information on flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and other data, and to store it for up to five years

Nevermind.
 
2012-12-16 12:45:44 PM  

Derwood: the Constitution has always been overrated


It really is.

It would be better if it had more of a defined overarching philosophy where laws could be hierarchically formed around the philosophy. It could be a more fluid document that evolves naturally, even scientifically.
 
2012-12-16 12:45:52 PM  

gadian: My dossier would be a list of dirty websites I've visited and a comment that I eat too much junk food and could really use a few laps around the block.



i want mine to have only this one link. nothing else. SFW

Link
 
2012-12-16 12:46:12 PM  

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


You Stasi supporter.

Yea, no Democrat has ever abused his power.

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?


We have been. Obama allowed a drone strike on an American citizen. That's something even Bush didn't have the gumption to do. Nobody who supported Barack Obama cares though. The bulk of the concern over civil rights under Bush was simply just concern trolling.
 
2012-12-16 12:47:17 PM  
Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.
 
2012-12-16 12:47:22 PM  
Dear Wingnuts:

See, THIS is why you don't get all up in arms about every decision you don't like. If you do, then you blow your wad and all your credibility on stupid shiat and have none left when something real comes up.

Fast and Furious = NOT a scandal, and NOT a big deal
Benghazi = NOT a scandal, and NOT a big deal
0bummer ISN'T going to take your guns

But this...this is truly disturbing. And it sure would be nice if the public could ask for a much deeper investigation without all of your derp contaminating it. So please, I'm begging you...stop. You're just like Michael Moore: you're not helping.

Sincerely,

Those of us who listen to things like facts, evidence, and reason
 
2012-12-16 12:48:30 PM  

vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.


I'd go with too close to the problem.

CSB: My sister used to date a cop. I remember always being surprised at how he immediately assumed people were up to something nefarious if they were doing anything even remotely out of the ordinary. I remember one time we were driving through the country and passed a guy walking along the roadside, and he muttered "WTF is this asshole doing? Probably stealing corn." I asked him if he realized these were feed corn, not sweet corn fields, and that he wasn't carrying any sort of bags, so he'd be able to steal an armload of corn that people basically can't eat, then he'd have to walk it wherever he wanted to take it. Perhaps if he wanted to steal corn wouldn't it make more sense to just pull over his car, open the trunk, and throw a bunch in before driving away? He was still convinced the guy was up to something wrong.
 
2012-12-16 12:49:11 PM  

LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?


Its a well known fact that such data is deleted each time you purchase a gun.

:)
 
2012-12-16 12:50:15 PM  

Counter_Intelligent: Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.


Or just French.

dossier

Nom masculin singulier

1. partie de siège, de chaise, de fauteuil, contre laquelle s'appuie le dos
2. ensemble de documents concernant une même affaire, une même personne
3. chemise en carton contenant ces documents
4. par extension problème, question, sujet
(informatique) métaphoriquement, ensemble de fichiers regroupés dans un même emplacement
 
2012-12-16 12:57:26 PM  
Nice when a country goes all counterintelligence against itself.

/The People are the Enemy
 
2012-12-16 12:57:41 PM  
Does no one remember the first Aliens and Sedition Act? The second Aliens and Sedition Act? The 1850's? The 1930's? Anyone? Bueller?
 
2012-12-16 12:58:02 PM  
I am pretty confident my file goes back to being a 6-year-old shortwave listener who wrote to Radio Moscow/Beijing/Havana in the early 80s with the "I'm a young American interested in your system of government" QSL. You got back neat swag that way. I've still got my Fidel Castro trading cards. The letters back were usually stamped "opened for inspection", and I fully expect TPTB have those notes in some dusty filebox somewhere.
 
2012-12-16 12:58:28 PM  
i224.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-16 01:02:01 PM  
It's so they can come get your guns! Be afraid!
 
2012-12-16 01:02:42 PM  

BronyMedic: >Reads headline.
>Reads article.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x278]

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.


I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.
 
2012-12-16 01:02:53 PM  

1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.


Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.
 
2012-12-16 01:04:31 PM  
There have always been forces in the American government that seek to restrict freedom.

The earliest example would be the "Alien and Sedition Acts" of 1798. Which among other things essentially made it illegal to criticize the President or Congress. But not the Vice President, because at the time it was the Presidential candidate who arrived in second place that became the Vice President, meaning he was likely to be a member of the opposition party.

At several points we've had anti-sedition laws passed during wartime, and in fact the WW2-era law on the subject (the Smith Act) is still technically on the books but has not been enforced for decades. Which the Tea Party should be thankful for, since it specifically banned advocating the overthrow of the American government, which is something the Tea Party has done even if it's highly improbable they've actually try it.
 
2012-12-16 01:05:06 PM  
What is this "Constitution" of which you speak?
 
2012-12-16 01:05:55 PM  

BronyMedic:

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.


Lame strawman.

No one says it started with 0bama.

It just has gotten a lot worse under 0bama's "leadership".

or are you saying that you support this?
 
2012-12-16 01:06:05 PM  

whistleridge: Counter_Intelligent: Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.

Or just French.

dossier

Nom masculin singulier

1. partie de siège, de chaise, de fauteuil, contre laquelle s'appuie le dos
2. ensemble de documents concernant une même affaire, une même personne
3. chemise en carton contenant ces documents
4. par extension problème, question, sujet
(informatique) métaphoriquement, ensemble de fichiers regroupés dans un même emplacement


25.media.tumblr.com

"Say it in 'Merican, sumbiatch!"
 
2012-12-16 01:07:13 PM  

Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.


Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.
 
2012-12-16 01:09:03 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.


And I suppose Romney would have been a better alternative?
 
2012-12-16 01:10:33 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Hoover V2.0 as AG


You know how I know that you don't know fark-all about J. Edgar Hoover? I mean, aside from the fact that you don't know fark-all about anything.
 
2012-12-16 01:15:05 PM  
This is information the government is already collecting and has been for years - it just gives access to that information to a centralized agency (the exact sort of thing that would have prevented 9/11). There are civil liberty issues that are deserving of the level of outrage ITT, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The only bit that really concerns me is that part about sharing the information with foreign governments.
 
2012-12-16 01:15:37 PM  

BMulligan: tenpoundsofcheese: Hoover V2.0 as AG

You know how I know that you don't know fark-all about J. Edgar Hoover? I mean, aside from the fact that you don't know fark-all about anything.


No, how?

I think Hoover 1.0 would have liked the idea of being able to kill US citizens with drones without the pesky trial thing.
 
2012-12-16 01:17:34 PM  
Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.
 
2012-12-16 01:17:49 PM  

Snapper Carr: This is information the government is already collecting and has been for years - it just gives access to that information to a centralized agency (the exact sort of thing that would have prevented 9/11). There are civil liberty issues that are deserving of the level of outrage ITT, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The only bit that really concerns me is that part about sharing the information with foreign governments.


so you are okay with it except for what they are actually doing? how does that make any sense?
 
2012-12-16 01:18:55 PM  

swahnhennessy: Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.


I think some people evaluate things based on their impact, not just the ideological implications.
 
2012-12-16 01:19:45 PM  

Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?

We have been.


Citation needed.

Obama allowed a drone strike on an American citizen. That's something even Bush didn't have the gumption to do. Nobody who supported Barack Obama cares though.

O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)
 
2012-12-16 01:20:12 PM  
My sister, who is a mostly harmless drunk, tried to get a job at Home Depot a couple of years ago. Interview went well. But it turns out that the FBI has her on some kind of "watch list", so she was turned down.

She made some effort to figure out what was going on, but learned she had to appear in Atlanta in person to talk to anyone about it. So she gave up.

/True story
 
2012-12-16 01:20:12 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.


Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10
 
2012-12-16 01:21:27 PM  

swahnhennessy: Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.


You clearly have no idea what the liberal complaints about Geroge W. Bush were.
 
2012-12-16 01:23:01 PM  

gadian: My dossier would be a list of dirty websites I've visited and a comment that I eat too much junk food and could really use a few laps around the block.


Pretty easy to put together, too, considering the Wired article has at least 15 demographic tracking tags, along with at least 7 on this page.
 
2012-12-16 01:25:26 PM  

LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?


When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.
 
2012-12-16 01:25:29 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.

I'd go with too close to the problem.

CSB: My sister used to date a cop. I remember always being surprised at how he immediately assumed people were up to something nefarious if they were doing anything even remotely out of the ordinary. I remember one time we were driving through the country and passed a guy walking along the roadside, and he muttered "WTF is this asshole doing? Probably stealing corn." I asked him if he realized these were feed corn, not sweet corn fields, and that he wasn't carrying any sort of bags, so he'd be able to steal an armload of corn that people basically can't eat, then he'd have to walk it wherever he wanted to take it. Perhaps if he wanted to steal corn wouldn't it make more sense to just pull over his car, open the trunk, and throw a bunch in before driving away? He was still convinced the guy was up to something wrong.


I think it's more fundamental than that- it's the " you have to be lucky every time" effect.

Imagine you're the head of anti- terrorism efforts in the US. You've created the best group there's ever been- you've stopped hundreds of bombings, hijackings, shootings, and so forth. You've captured smuggled plutonium and sarin gas shipments. You've identified hundreds of possible attackers and had drones visit them before they become threats to US citizens.

And then one guy gets past you and kills a few thousand people.

You're now the guy who failed to prevent the biggest attack since 9/11. The blood of those people is on your hands. You're going to be dragged in front of endless groups to explain your complete failure at your job. You'll be studied in textbooks that show people how not to be like you.

Yeah, I can see why they'd be asking for ever more information and power.
 
2012-12-16 01:26:25 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10


wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

I live with my mom for phoning it in.
 
2012-12-16 01:26:57 PM  

LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?


i do. you have any idea just how much wrong info is in those databases? and how hard it is to even see it, let alone fix it? that's a problem when "the government" will be making decisions based on that info.
 
2012-12-16 01:27:09 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10

wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

I live with my mom for phoning it in.


You fail.
 
2012-12-16 01:27:12 PM  
The Stazi in East Germany had 2,000,000 informers out of an East German population of 16,000,000.

They were unable to keep the government in power and prevent the Communism from being dissolved.

It's one thing to keep files on everyone, it's another to make sense of the information and daw relevant conclusions.

The FBI had all the info they needed to stop the 9/11 terrorist. But we're unable to connect the dots. Agents that did connect the dos were overruled by incompetent management.

This will accomplish the exactly the same.
 
2012-12-16 01:29:37 PM  

sugardave: We can thank thoughtful insights such as "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" for shiat like this.


it does seem like we got what we wanted. well some got that, others of us are pissed at the stupidity.
 
2012-12-16 01:29:42 PM  

Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.


U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.
 
2012-12-16 01:31:27 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10

wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

I live with my mom for phoning it in.

You fail.


awww, someone is all butt hurt for the self-imposed reaming in that other thread.

you'll get over it.
 
2012-12-16 01:31:32 PM  

qorkfiend: You clearly have no idea what the liberal complaints about Geroge W. Bush were.


You clearly have no memory of me on this very same website during those years. Don't tell me what you think I know.
 
2012-12-16 01:32:37 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-16 01:32:50 PM  

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Again, what deterrent? Do you honestly think the government gives a shiat about the threat of the people rising up and overthrowing it with their handguns and hunting rifles?
 
2012-12-16 01:34:03 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: My sister used to date a cop.


for your sake i'm glad you used the past tense. probably her sake too.
 
2012-12-16 01:36:26 PM  

1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.


Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.
 
2012-12-16 01:36:45 PM  

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


img27.imageshack.us

img21.imageshack.us

img690.imageshack.us


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.
 
2012-12-16 01:39:20 PM  

whistleridge: Counter_Intelligent: Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.

Or just French.

dossier

Nom masculin singulier

1. partie de siège, de chaise, de fauteuil, contre laquelle s'appuie le dos
2. ensemble de documents concernant une même affaire, une même personne
3. chemise en carton contenant ces documents
4. par extension problème, question, sujet
(informatique) métaphoriquement, ensemble de fichiers regroupés dans un même emplacement


Nope. Whoever made "dossier" was all, "Now zat I have all zese documents containing le sécret informaçion, I will need le cool word to call zem." Thus, "dossier" as born.
 
2012-12-16 01:39:50 PM  
Sorry, cheese.

I forgot that saying something incredibly stupid then declaring yourself the winner is your thing.

I won't do it again.
 
2012-12-16 01:40:23 PM  

SomeoneDumb: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.


Actually this is complete bullshiat. There is no reason to distrust the US government, which is mostly very benevolent. This is just Republican propaganda.
 
2012-12-16 01:41:26 PM  

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Nice rebuttal, but I didn't say anything about having "no problem" with a government spying on it's people.

Curious: LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?

i do. you have any idea just how much wrong info is in those databases? and how hard it is to even see it, let alone fix it? that's a problem when "the government" will be making decisions based on that info.


Do YOU know what's "in those databases"? And how hard it is to see? Or what decisions might be made? What's even being looked for? Anything specific?
 
2012-12-16 01:41:45 PM  

Brick-House: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 640x456]


classy. Looks like some "conservative" is really butthurt.

I'm sure his children are learning a valuable lessons about the spirit of Christmas and civic participation.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:04 PM  

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:21 PM  

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


"Funny!"ed.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:35 PM  

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


U.S. Government has far more impressive weaponry than any number of citizens.
 
2012-12-16 01:43:04 PM  

Snapper Carr: If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


you know i doubt that. first we don't have history of blindly following orders and second ... well we don't need a second then do we?
 
2012-12-16 01:43:11 PM  
There aren't many people left who genuinely care. A large majority of this country shrugged years ago and decided, "If I'm not doing anything wrong, it can't hurt me."

A lot of them will find out how mistaken that view is one day.
 
2012-12-16 01:43:33 PM  
BronyMedic
/It's cute you think this started with Obama.

upload.wikimedia.org

It's cute that you think this started with the FBI

At what point do the exceptions just become the rules?

/yes, I'm aware Hoover was critical in the raids


ChuDogg
Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Either 7/10 or Poe's Law


swahnhennessy
What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties.

No, you get it. White middle-class liberals are in the same class as white middle-class conservatives, and all it breaks down to is whether you support Red Team or Blue Team because it's just a game to feel like there's an important and meaningful struggle going on and you can make a difference. A manufactured solution to a manufactured problem to give meaning to a meaningless life. The whole middle class is part of a trick to drive a wedge between proles by giving some privilege; electoral politics is an important part of that trick.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:43 PM  

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


That's not true. I know some guys with AR-15s. It's the gov't that needs to worry.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:57 PM  

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Do you understand how hilarious that sounds? That the Federal Government is somehow scurred of little Jethro and his gun show Chinese AK? Do you honestly think there's a single person on The Hill who is even slightly concerned about an armed uprising?

They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!

Nobody is scared of a revolution, because they know it can never succeed. The days of a man and a rifle being all that's required to put real pressure on a government are loooooooooong past.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:59 PM  

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


I'm not too worried about drones and tanks. The government has much more powerful tools to control the populace.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:20 PM  

ilambiquated: SomeoneDumb: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.

Actually this is complete bullshiat. There is no reason to distrust the US government, which is mostly very benevolent. This is just Republican propaganda.


That's why I called distrust paranoia. It's not justified by any stretch of the imagination.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:57 PM  

ChuDogg: Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Lol.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:58 PM  

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


No. It really doesn't.

The number of Real Americans that would raise up in arms against "tyranny" would pale to the number that think "WTF are these idiots doing?" The "patriots" will be seen as domestic terrorists and opposed by an overwhelming majority, who will be backed by the military, and the "revolutionaries" will get squashed like bug (with about as much effort).
 
2012-12-16 01:46:59 PM  

Kuroshin: 1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.

Do you understand how hilarious that sounds? That the Federal Government is somehow scurred of little Jethro and his gun show Chinese AK? Do you honestly think there's a single person on The Hill who is even slightly concerned about an armed uprising?

They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!

Nobody is scared of a revolution, because they know it can never succeed. The days of a man and a rifle being all that's required to put real pressure on a government are loooooooooong past.


How long have we been in Afghanistan again?
 
2012-12-16 01:56:05 PM  

Spade: Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.


Firstly, there is absolutely nothing in common between the American people and those in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those people have been in a constant state of war or invasion for centuries. We cry when the garbage doesn't come on memorial day. Second, the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

So you can show your ass about how many guns Americans have and that the government better watch out but you and I and everyone else knows that you're not going to do shiat and the government will do whatever the fark they want. So sit down and watch American Idol, biatch.
 
2012-12-16 01:56:46 PM  
This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:42 PM  

Kuroshin: They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!


All provided to the cheers of the same people fantasizing about a citizen militia ousting a dread tyrant.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:54 PM  

Superjoe: This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.


It's to allow correlation of information we already gather. Data is best used when compared and correlated.
 
2012-12-16 02:00:06 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Is that stuff gonna go into my Permanent Record along with that time I got caught smoking under the bleachers in high school?


I was denied a job after they found out I shot a spitball in my 3rd grade class.
 
2012-12-16 02:04:22 PM  

Spade: Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.

Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.


The last successful conquest of Afghanistan was 800 years ago - no one's been able to hold it. Its terrain makes it nearly impossible to subdue.

As for Iraq - the initial bombing absolutely devastated their ability to fight back, but we sent in 1/10th of the troops most of the commanders recommended to hold the country on the ground.

My point was that small arms really won't make much of a difference when faced with actual military hardware that the US military would bring to bear.
-
 
2012-12-16 02:10:08 PM  

Snapper Carr: Spade: Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.

Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.

The last successful conquest of Afghanistan was 800 years ago - no one's been able to hold it. Its terrain makes it nearly impossible to subdue.

As for Iraq - the initial bombing absolutely devastated their ability to fight back, but we sent in 1/10th of the troops most of the commanders recommended to hold the country on the ground.

My point was that small arms really won't make much of a difference when faced with actual military hardware that the US military would bring to bear.
-


We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.
 
2012-12-16 02:15:29 PM  

cman: Change we can believe in


And yet, Obama was STILL a better choice than either McCain or Romney.
 
2012-12-16 02:16:36 PM  

whistleridge: But this...this is truly disturbing.


...and I would be scared if our benevolent, caring, mom and pop multinational corporations didn't do even more prying into your private life every single day...and lobby to get said prying waved away as "freedom of speech".
 
2012-12-16 02:16:53 PM  
How is it that they're allowed to know every last little thing about us, while we don't even get to see our "president's" real birth certifict?
 
2012-12-16 02:17:50 PM  

vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.


I think it is probably a little of both actually. Sometimes people get access to more information about shiat going on that we never hear about. It is bound to change your perceptions a little. But yes, most people also seem to lack the ability to step back and get a little perspective.
 
2012-12-16 02:17:55 PM  

unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.


Huh. I would be interested so see if they have anything on me.
 
2012-12-16 02:18:17 PM  
When was the last time the People made Govt afraid of them? We get what we deserve because we are too lazy and too scared to fight anymore.
 
2012-12-16 02:18:24 PM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)


I waded through that and found nothing of significance to change my stance. Got a further point?

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?

We have been.

Citation needed.



Ok, let's go with somewhere that you can't say it's liberal.

Link
Link

Or how about where Obama supporters minimize his actions while a few conservatives protest it?
Link
 
2012-12-16 02:18:35 PM  

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


And 299 million of them are in the hands of hoverround commandos. Not even a threat to butterflies.
 
2012-12-16 02:20:57 PM  
Old news. Repeat from 1953.
 
2012-12-16 02:26:36 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

I live with my mom for phoning it in.

 

i46.tinypic.com 

Hosting Catpcha was 'yadda yadda yadda'. The Internet is bored of you.
 
2012-12-16 02:28:08 PM  

Brian Ryanberger: When was the last time the People made Govt afraid of them? We get what we deserve because we are too lazy and too scared to fight anymore.


The hell are you talking about? In case you haven't noticed, the people are the government.
 
2012-12-16 02:36:42 PM  

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


Funny - a few years back people would post those images with the caption, "Not particularly useful against an insurgency."
 
2012-12-16 02:44:42 PM  

vygramul: Funny - a few years back people would post those images with the caption, "Not particularly useful against an insurgency."


Well since there's never going to be an insurgency in America, we'll have to agree to disagree on how successful one would be.
 
2012-12-16 02:46:31 PM  

vygramul: ...the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person...


1. I agree with you that an action does not suddenly become immoral when the legislature decides to criminalize it. That's the whole idea behind the concept of malum prohibitum. So, for example, before McDonald v. Chicago was decided in 2010, it was illegal to have a gun in your home in Chicago. Someone who chose to do so in contravention of this law was not, in my opinion, a bad person.
2. I disagree with your statement that illegally entering the U.S. does not make one a bad person. I think it does. It is akin to trespassing. Imagine you live in a crappy house, but your neighbor has a really nice place. Your neighbor is stupid enough to leave his front door unlocked. So, you just walk into his house and make yourself at home. The fact that it was easy for you to do this does not make your actions any less immoral. I would even go so far as to say that if your neighbor walks in and finds you in his house, it would be perfectly just for him to shoot you.
 
2012-12-16 02:49:46 PM  
Interesting timing. They always let us know about their new encroachments on freedom when people are scared.
 
2012-12-16 02:51:00 PM  
COINTELPRO lives. We need another break-in to end all break-ins.
 
2012-12-16 02:52:47 PM  

1derful: U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


i560.photobucket.com

Here, have some more soma. Uncle Sam is buying.
 
2012-12-16 02:58:08 PM  
But Farkers on the politics tab told me the Democrats were so different than Republicans! I know, BOTH SIDES ARE BAD SO VOTE REPUBLICAN!

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


So it is ok because your team is doing this shiat? You are part of the problem and make me sick.
 
2012-12-16 03:03:22 PM  
Welcome to "this has always been happening anyway". But I'm glad you finally realized it.
 
2012-12-16 03:04:26 PM  

machoprogrammer: But Farkers on the politics tab told me the Democrats were so different than Republicans! I know, BOTH SIDES ARE BAD SO VOTE REPUBLICAN!

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.

So it is ok because your team is doing this shiat? You are part of the problem and make me sick.


Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?
 
2012-12-16 03:05:01 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: I think it's more fundamental than that- it's the " you have to be lucky every time" effect.

Imagine you're the head of anti- terrorism efforts in the US. You've created the best group there's ever been- you've stopped hundreds of bombings, hijackings, shootings, and so forth. You've captured smuggled plutonium and sarin gas shipments. You've identified hundreds of possible attackers and had drones visit them before they become threats to US citizens.

And then one guy gets past you and kills a few thousand people.

You're now the guy who failed to prevent the biggest attack since 9/11. The blood of those people is on your hands. You're going to be dragged in front of endless groups to explain your complete failure at your job. You'll be studied in textbooks that show people how not to be like you.


www.scene-stealers.com

Yeah, I can see why they'd be asking for ever more information and power.

Rational thought and explanations are un-American, citizen.
 
2012-12-16 03:19:02 PM  

Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)

I waded through that and found nothing of significance to change my stancela la la I can't hear you.

 
2012-12-16 03:26:44 PM  

Bontesla: cman: Change we can believe in

You think that this didn't occur before?


FTFA: "The Obama administration's new rules come after previous surveillance proposals were struck down during the Bush administration, following widespread condemnation."

So, yeah, it didn't occur before, dumbass.
 
2012-12-16 03:28:34 PM  
Hunh, I thought our government had been doing this since 9/11.
 
2012-12-16 03:28:38 PM  
The GOP has been scared of the commies since Vietnam turned into a totally mismanaged failure. And Cuba of course. Oh, wait. Democrat John F. Kennedy backed the Russians and Cubans off.
 
2012-12-16 03:32:16 PM  

Spade: We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.



Look at Northern Ireland's population. Using the current population, which is larger than it would have been at the PIRA's peak, that works out to the equivalent of 167,000 or so active terrorists in the US. And there is an enormous gap between the US military and any other western military. We have the strength of just about every other military in the world combined.

The idea that a few dopes with small arms could stand up against the US Armed Forces is entirely ludicrous. Wanna know how that turns out for you? Look at Waco- a bunch of morons getting themselves killed.
 
2012-12-16 03:43:29 PM  

LasersHurt: Anything specific?


a little. i do know about some of the inaccurate info that is floating around the internet that is held by private companies. and i also know that some of it comes from tax records that are wrong. to defend the government as having completely accurate records is -- well silly.

as for fixing it, good luck with that. after fixing the wrong info a few times and having it come back again from archived files i stopped bothering. it hasn't been a big problem for me personally so i now ignore it.
 
2012-12-16 03:46:03 PM  
This may be unfortunate in that it might leave room for error and abuse, but it's not unconstitutional and hardly unprecedented in function. For a bunch of people who readily gave out all of this info to private companies whose sole reason for requesting it is to make more money off of them, the black helicopter eyebrow raising is a bit over the top.
 
2012-12-16 03:59:56 PM  
Mugato
the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

Duh? You've apparently never heard of guerrilla warfare?

not saying Americans would ever resort to that, mind you


Superjoe
This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.

The point is not to find people to go after. The point is to find dirt on people they want to go after, and figure out what makes them tick so they can be manipulated.


BMulligan
In case you haven't noticed, the people are the government.

4/10, too obvious
 
2012-12-16 04:02:48 PM  

RanDomino: The point is not to find people to go after. The point is to find dirt on people they want to go after, and figure out what makes them tick so they can be manipulated.


If you don't have any dirt, then you have nothing to worry about, right? Or is that no longer a right wing talking point?
 
2012-12-16 04:05:09 PM  
Does anybody else wonder why Eric Holder has a 1980's pornstache?

I think that's the really important question here.
 
2012-12-16 04:08:39 PM  
You know who ELSE kept secret dossiers he shouldn't have??

mimg.ugo.com
 
2012-12-16 04:11:26 PM  

RanDomino: Mugato
the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

Duh? You've apparently never heard of guerrilla warfare?

not saying Americans would ever resort to that, mind you


Yeah I've heard of it. And it worked against the US.....in Viet Nam. Kind of a completely different set of circumstances than the scenario the survivalist nuts are beating off to.
 
2012-12-16 04:12:12 PM  

LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?


FTFA, the impression is they can use things like what you're buying or health services. If it's not available to the general public, it should require some minimal checking for federal agents to access it.
 
2012-12-16 04:13:35 PM  

LasersHurt: Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?


Well, reading the article, it states:

Earlier this year, Attorney General Eric Holder granted the center the ability to copy entire government databases holding information on flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and other data, and to store it for up to five years, even without suspicion that someone in the database has committed a crime, according to the Wall Street Journal, which broke the story.

Whereas previously the law prohibited the center from storing data compilations on U.S. citizens unless they were suspected of terrorist activity or were relevant to an ongoing terrorism investigation, the new powers give the center the ability to not only collect and store vast databases of information but also to trawl through and analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior in order to uncover activity that could launch an investigation.


That would state that, yes, the Democrats are behind it. Or is Eric Holder now a Republican?
 
2012-12-16 04:35:40 PM  

coco ebert: unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.

This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.


If I have a time machine, I will go back 8 years and post this on Fark just to see the stupid look on your face.

Keep up the groupthink and cognitive dissonance, Fark.
 
2012-12-16 04:39:34 PM  

cptjeff: Spade: We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.


Look at Northern Ireland's population. Using the current population, which is larger than it would have been at the PIRA's peak, that works out to the equivalent of 167,000 or so active terrorists in the US. And there is an enormous gap between the US military and any other western military. We have the strength of just about every other military in the world combined.


That would be, by my math, 0.09% of gun owners in the United States.
 
2012-12-16 04:45:37 PM  

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


You may be able to trust this administration, but what about the administration after? And the one after that? And the ones many years in the future?

Start thinking like an American and stop thinking like a partisan dumbass.
 
2012-12-16 04:49:17 PM  

Fallout Boy: coco ebert: unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.

This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.

If I have a time machine, I will go back 8 years and post this on Fark just to see the stupid look on your face.

Keep up the groupthink and cognitive dissonance, Fark.


WTF happened 8 years ago?
 
2012-12-16 04:53:15 PM  
First they say I can't own black people. Then they say women can vote. Constitution has been going downhill for a while.
. Take me back to 1790 when everything was just swe
 
2012-12-16 05:03:10 PM  

mike0023: vygramul: ...the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person...

1. I agree with you that an action does not suddenly become immoral when the legislature decides to criminalize it. That's the whole idea behind the concept of malum prohibitum. So, for example, before McDonald v. Chicago was decided in 2010, it was illegal to have a gun in your home in Chicago. Someone who chose to do so in contravention of this law was not, in my opinion, a bad person.
2. I disagree with your statement that illegally entering the U.S. does not make one a bad person. I think it does. It is akin to trespassing. Imagine you live in a crappy house, but your neighbor has a really nice place. Your neighbor is stupid enough to leave his front door unlocked. So, you just walk into his house and make yourself at home. The fact that it was easy for you to do this does not make your actions any less immoral. I would even go so far as to say that if your neighbor walks in and finds you in his house, it would be perfectly just for him to shoot you.


What if your invading trespasser was 3 years old? Still bad?
 
2012-12-16 05:10:59 PM  

Mugato: Those people have been in a constant state of war or invasion for centuries


No they haven't. This is just Republican "I'm going to pretend I know history and whatever claim I make is automatically true" rhetoric.
 
2012-12-16 05:11:20 PM  
The dick licker is a Democrat, so don't expect any outrage from the usual suspects who protested every slight move that Atty Gen John Ashcroft made.


The Left has zero credibility.
 
2012-12-16 05:20:27 PM  

Crude: The dick licker is a Democrat, so don't expect any outrage from the usual suspects who protested every slight move that Atty Gen John Ashcroft made.


Why do Republicans always bring up fellatio?
 
2012-12-16 05:22:56 PM  
1. I don't like it.
2. Yawn, it doesn't sound like a violation of the fourth.
 
2012-12-16 05:33:42 PM  

1derful: U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


This is cute that you think this.

www.airforce-technology.com

Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.
 
2012-12-16 05:54:17 PM  
Mugato
Yeah I've heard of it. And it worked against the US.....in Viet Nam. Kind of a completely different set of circumstances than the scenario the survivalist nuts are beating off to.

Do you mean that guerrilla warfare can't beat an invasion specifically, although it might beat an occupation?


BronyMedic
Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.

One second later, the military would stop functioning.
 
2012-12-16 05:56:41 PM  

Crude: The dick licker is a Democrat, so don't expect any outrage from the usual suspects who protested every slight move that Atty Gen John Ashcroft made.


The Left has zero credibility.


Well, at least 0 > -1.
 
2012-12-16 06:04:37 PM  

machoprogrammer: LasersHurt: Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?

Well, reading the article, it states:

Earlier this year, Attorney General Eric Holder granted the center the ability to copy entire government databases holding information on flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and other data, and to store it for up to five years, even without suspicion that someone in the database has committed a crime, according to the Wall Street Journal, which broke the story.

Whereas previously the law prohibited the center from storing data compilations on U.S. citizens unless they were suspected of terrorist activity or were relevant to an ongoing terrorism investigation, the new powers give the center the ability to not only collect and store vast databases of information but also to trawl through and analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior in order to uncover activity that could launch an investigation.

That would state that, yes, the Democrats are behind it. Or is Eric Holder now a Republican?


When did I ever say anything about Democrats? Who are you arguing with?
 
2012-12-16 06:05:20 PM  

RanDomino: Mugato
Yeah I've heard of it. And it worked against the US.....in Viet Nam. Kind of a completely different set of circumstances than the scenario the survivalist nuts are beating off to.

Do you mean that guerrilla warfare can't beat an invasion specifically, although it might beat an occupation?


I'm saying the scenario is bullshiat to begin with because it's never going to happen. Ever. And if it did (and it won't), it would not be the same as a half assed military operation half way around the world. It would be a collection of rednecks against the entire US military, every law enforcement agency in the country and other rednecks loyal to the government. It's just something that will never happen no matter how out of line the government gets.
 
2012-12-16 06:09:50 PM  

RanDomino: BronyMedic
Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.

One second later, the military would stop functioning.


You're assuming that at the point they're capable of doing this to their own citizens, that the United States Government resembles what it does today. There's a reason why Tyranny of the Majority is so terrifying.

Everyone thought the same thing in Germany, too, before Hitler came into power.
 
2012-12-16 06:14:26 PM  
BronyMedic
You're assuming that at the point they're capable of doing this to their own citizens, that the United States Government resembles what it does today. There's a reason why Tyranny of the Majority is so terrifying.

Everyone thought the same thing in Germany, too, before Hitler came into power.


How many German cities did Hitler bomb?
 
2012-12-16 06:33:45 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Crude: The dick licker is a Democrat, so don't expect any outrage from the usual suspects who protested every slight move that Atty Gen John Ashcroft made.

Why do Republicans always bring up fellatio?


They secretly like the cock.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
2012-12-16 06:42:10 PM  

BronyMedic: 1derful: U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

This is cute that you think this.

[www.airforce-technology.com image 550x317]

Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.


We are dealing with a hypothetical situation that's unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future. It would take more then just a President who's a tad more trigger happy then normal. It would demand an extremely radical/reactionary movement that is both willing and able to use violence to achieve their agenda to take power on a significant scale. As it stands aside from a handful of psychopaths, no one is actually willing to pull the trigger no matter how much they might fantasize about it.

The government isn't some monolithic entity capable of one day saying "Okay, now it's time to oppress the masses", we would need people in power that actually want to oppress the masses on a significant scale, and those people would have to be insufficiently opposed. This is not exactly something that can happen overnight.
 
2012-12-16 06:48:04 PM  

Bontesla: cman: Change we can believe in

You think that this didn't occur before?


See also COINTELPRO.
 
2012-12-16 07:11:21 PM  
BronyMedic: 1derful: U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

This is cute that you think this.

[www.airforce-technology.com image 550x317]

Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.


The US government doesn't have to defeat its own territory, it has to occupy it. Note that even in a situation where the enemy insurgents are relatively isolated from friendly populations in, say, Afghanistan, all our uses of air power basically amount to killing innocent civilians left and right. Not really something you'd generally be willing to do on your own turf unless you're pretty desperate.
 
2012-12-16 07:15:35 PM  
Holder considers us all enemies of the state.
 
2012-12-16 07:34:21 PM  

oryx: Holder considers us all enemies of the state.


Well, he's half right, at least.
 
2012-12-16 07:47:43 PM  

coco ebert: unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.

This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.


It's not that I've ever believed that the government always respected the constitution, it's just that, in the past, the government at least pretended to. Now they openly defy it, and don't back down when the citizens become widely aware of it, and grow ever more vocal in opposition to it. This is the visible milestone I have my eyes on.

1) break the law in secret, by special interpretation if necessary. 2) if caught, lie about breaking the law. 3) shrug off criticism, saying "noone's followed that law for a long time". 4) change the law, by force if necessary, effective retroactively if you're feeling especially brazen. 5) break other laws that were slightly more important than the one in #1. 6) repeat forever, until it is cheap and easy to keep the citizens in line, and the best roast beef on your banquet table.

We're somewhere between #3 and #4, with regard to our Constitution.
 
2012-12-16 07:50:03 PM  

LasersHurt: Superjoe: This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.

It's to allow correlation of information we already gather. Data is best used when compared and correlated.


Agrees:
images.zap2it.com
Hot like the latest number
 
2012-12-16 07:51:12 PM  

RanDomino: BMulligan
In case you haven't noticed, the people are the government.

4/10, too obvious


Fark you. You're a bad American.
 
2012-12-16 08:02:20 PM  

LasersHurt: machoprogrammer: LasersHurt: Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?

Well, reading the article, it states:

Earlier this year, Attorney General Eric Holder granted the center the ability to copy entire government databases holding information on flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and other data, and to store it for up to five years, even without suspicion that someone in the database has committed a crime, according to the Wall Street Journal, which broke the story.

Whereas previously the law prohibited the center from storing data compilations on U.S. citizens unless they were suspected of terrorist activity or were relevant to an ongoing terrorism investigation, the new powers give the center the ability to not only collect and store vast databases of information but also to trawl through and analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior in order to uncover activity that could launch an investigation.

That would state that, yes, the Democrats are behind it. Or is Eric Holder now a Republican?

When did I ever say anything about Democrats? Who are you arguing with?


Your reply made me think you were defending Democrats, like Farkers on this tab usually do... What exactly was your point in your original reply?
 
2012-12-16 08:29:02 PM  

BronyMedic: RanDomino: BronyMedic
Those guns mean nothing when a single sortee can level an entire city.

One second later, the military would stop functioning.

You're assuming that at the point they're capable of doing this to their own citizens, that the United States Government resembles what it does today. There's a reason why Tyranny of the Majority is so terrifying.

Everyone thought the same thing in Germany, too, before Hitler came into power.


Yeah.

But even at the height of all that, in Warsaw, Poland, Polish resistance members were manufacturing Sten guns that are of a better quality than the British made ones (not a high bar, but still) right under the German occupation.
 
2012-12-16 09:03:03 PM  
Yeah. Boy, keeping records on Innocent Americans sure is Unconstitutional. Right there in the Constitution, it says there will absolutely never be a Census in which the government keeps records on you.

Right there!!!! Never!

(Nutcase right? Nutcase left? It hardly matters. You guys are all farktard dumbasses.)
 
2012-12-16 10:01:05 PM  

ilambiquated: My sister, who is a mostly harmless drunk, tried to get a job at Home Depot a couple of years ago. Interview went well. But it turns out that the FBI has her on some kind of "watch list", so she was turned down.

She made some effort to figure out what was going on, but learned she had to appear in Atlanta in person to talk to anyone about it. So she gave up.

/True story


If you want to find out if you are on a federal watchlist you have to file a foia request.

I doubt that home depot runs deferal databases and is given interdiction hits.

Forgive my skepticism, but you can't go up to a federal agent and politely ask to be run - they aren't even allowed to run you without work cause.
 
2012-12-16 10:33:08 PM  
BMulligan
Fark you. You're a bad American.

well... yeah. At this point you have to be, to be ethical.
 
2012-12-16 11:40:48 PM  

Jake Havechek: The GOP has been scared of the commies since Vietnam turned into a totally mismanaged failure.


Joe McCarthy frowns at your oversight, and adds you to his "list."
 
2012-12-16 11:45:46 PM  
Empty Matchbook ,

WTF is that comic book? Are you seriously saying there is a comic book where the goddamn batman beats them all, including near-invincible Superman?

/ not much of a comic person
// could batman take aquaman
 
2012-12-16 11:49:46 PM  

BronyMedic: >Reads headline.
>Reads article.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x278]

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.


My thoughts exactly.
 
2012-12-17 12:18:14 AM  
Hope and change!
 
2012-12-17 12:19:59 AM  

vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.


Actually, to be fair, us regular citizens don't have access to all the data. We simply don't know how many actual terrorists threats have been stymied by the government.
 
2012-12-17 12:22:06 AM  
Love how all the Obama Fellators are making excuses, hand waving, and generally allowing sloppy 2nds, 3rds and 4ths up their asses in addition to the regular blow jobs they are so good at.
 
2012-12-17 12:24:53 AM  

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Do you thoroughly lick the shaft first, or just do away with the foreplay and take it down the throat first thing? Do you include licking the balls and the anus?
 
2012-12-17 12:42:31 AM  
Yeah, it's been nearly 12 years now.

constitutiontimes.com
 
2012-12-17 12:48:32 AM  

RevMercutio: BronyMedic: >Reads headline.
>Reads article.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x278]

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.

My thoughts exactly.


It's funny you think it even started with J. Edgar Hoover. He just made it more efficient. Try looking up the Palmer Raids.
 
2012-12-17 02:27:05 AM  

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


If you trust any politician, you are an idiot.
 
2012-12-17 02:32:23 AM  

OgreMagi: ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.

If you trust any politician, you are an idiot.


I trust Obama to behave how I expect him to in most situations

Do you mean some other kind of trust?
 
2012-12-17 02:57:43 AM  

Crude: The dick licker is a Democrat, so don't expect any outrage from the usual suspects who protested every slight move that Atty Gen John Ashcroft made.


The Left has zero credibility.


So, in your mind, Wired is a Republican-leaning publication.

DEAR EVERYONE TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A (D) VS (R) FIGHT:
Instead of shaking your pompoms for whatever stupid team you imagine yourself part of, let's all agree that this crap is unamerican and let's mutually support institutions that will bring legal and legislative challenges to it.

The ACLU is one such group, as is the EFF. Do you want to join me with them, Crude, or do you have other suggestions?
 
2012-12-17 03:35:27 AM  
Woooow. I never go into the politics tab anymore but this thread has been fun!

More! More!
 
2012-12-17 09:42:32 AM  
Hmm, is it really that difficult to collect information on people when they willingly post it all over the internet. I'm sure you could build a substantial file on people just based on idiotic tweets and Facebook postings alone (see thread about peoples reaction to Obama preempting SNF)
 
2012-12-17 11:29:17 AM  
Sure, OBAMA is such a great chap :) He is more evil than Bush ever was.
 
2012-12-17 01:56:56 PM  
I like this rationalization from you all.
we've all had dosiers since the 1910s,
we just didn't know it.
or it doesn't matter since democrats are benevolent.
or it doesn't matter since this information is out there anyway.
god damn you people are a bunch of pricks.
 
2012-12-17 01:57:06 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: BronyMedic:

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.

Lame strawman.

No one says it started with 0bama.

It just has gotten a lot worse under 0bama's "leadership".

or are you saying that you support this?


So you counter a strawman with a strawman? Are you meta, or just dim?
 
2012-12-17 06:40:34 PM  

relcec: nnnnnngh. This is the sound of my impotent rage.

 
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