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(Wired)   Well, the Constitution was nice while it lasted   (wired.com) divider line 194
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13666 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Dec 2012 at 12:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-16 01:46:58 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


No. It really doesn't.

The number of Real Americans that would raise up in arms against "tyranny" would pale to the number that think "WTF are these idiots doing?" The "patriots" will be seen as domestic terrorists and opposed by an overwhelming majority, who will be backed by the military, and the "revolutionaries" will get squashed like bug (with about as much effort).
 
2012-12-16 01:46:59 PM

Kuroshin: 1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.

Do you understand how hilarious that sounds? That the Federal Government is somehow scurred of little Jethro and his gun show Chinese AK? Do you honestly think there's a single person on The Hill who is even slightly concerned about an armed uprising?

They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!

Nobody is scared of a revolution, because they know it can never succeed. The days of a man and a rifle being all that's required to put real pressure on a government are loooooooooong past.


How long have we been in Afghanistan again?
 
2012-12-16 01:56:05 PM

Spade: Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.


Firstly, there is absolutely nothing in common between the American people and those in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those people have been in a constant state of war or invasion for centuries. We cry when the garbage doesn't come on memorial day. Second, the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

So you can show your ass about how many guns Americans have and that the government better watch out but you and I and everyone else knows that you're not going to do shiat and the government will do whatever the fark they want. So sit down and watch American Idol, biatch.
 
2012-12-16 01:56:46 PM
This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:42 PM

Kuroshin: They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!


All provided to the cheers of the same people fantasizing about a citizen militia ousting a dread tyrant.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:54 PM

Superjoe: This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.


It's to allow correlation of information we already gather. Data is best used when compared and correlated.
 
2012-12-16 02:00:06 PM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Is that stuff gonna go into my Permanent Record along with that time I got caught smoking under the bleachers in high school?


I was denied a job after they found out I shot a spitball in my 3rd grade class.
 
2012-12-16 02:04:22 PM

Spade: Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.

Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.


The last successful conquest of Afghanistan was 800 years ago - no one's been able to hold it. Its terrain makes it nearly impossible to subdue.

As for Iraq - the initial bombing absolutely devastated their ability to fight back, but we sent in 1/10th of the troops most of the commanders recommended to hold the country on the ground.

My point was that small arms really won't make much of a difference when faced with actual military hardware that the US military would bring to bear.
-
 
2012-12-16 02:10:08 PM

Snapper Carr: Spade: Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.

Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.

The last successful conquest of Afghanistan was 800 years ago - no one's been able to hold it. Its terrain makes it nearly impossible to subdue.

As for Iraq - the initial bombing absolutely devastated their ability to fight back, but we sent in 1/10th of the troops most of the commanders recommended to hold the country on the ground.

My point was that small arms really won't make much of a difference when faced with actual military hardware that the US military would bring to bear.
-


We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.
 
2012-12-16 02:15:29 PM

cman: Change we can believe in


And yet, Obama was STILL a better choice than either McCain or Romney.
 
2012-12-16 02:16:36 PM

whistleridge: But this...this is truly disturbing.


...and I would be scared if our benevolent, caring, mom and pop multinational corporations didn't do even more prying into your private life every single day...and lobby to get said prying waved away as "freedom of speech".
 
2012-12-16 02:16:53 PM
How is it that they're allowed to know every last little thing about us, while we don't even get to see our "president's" real birth certifict?
 
2012-12-16 02:17:50 PM

vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.


I think it is probably a little of both actually. Sometimes people get access to more information about shiat going on that we never hear about. It is bound to change your perceptions a little. But yes, most people also seem to lack the ability to step back and get a little perspective.
 
2012-12-16 02:17:55 PM

unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.


Huh. I would be interested so see if they have anything on me.
 
2012-12-16 02:18:17 PM
When was the last time the People made Govt afraid of them? We get what we deserve because we are too lazy and too scared to fight anymore.
 
2012-12-16 02:18:24 PM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)


I waded through that and found nothing of significance to change my stance. Got a further point?

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?

We have been.

Citation needed.



Ok, let's go with somewhere that you can't say it's liberal.

Link
Link

Or how about where Obama supporters minimize his actions while a few conservatives protest it?
Link
 
2012-12-16 02:18:35 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


And 299 million of them are in the hands of hoverround commandos. Not even a threat to butterflies.
 
2012-12-16 02:20:57 PM
Old news. Repeat from 1953.
 
2012-12-16 02:26:36 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

0/10 for phoning it in.

 

i46.tinypic.com 

Hosting Catpcha was 'yadda yadda yadda'. The Internet is bored of you.
 
2012-12-16 02:28:08 PM

Brian Ryanberger: When was the last time the People made Govt afraid of them? We get what we deserve because we are too lazy and too scared to fight anymore.


The hell are you talking about? In case you haven't noticed, the people are the government.
 
2012-12-16 02:36:42 PM

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


Funny - a few years back people would post those images with the caption, "Not particularly useful against an insurgency."
 
2012-12-16 02:44:42 PM

vygramul: Funny - a few years back people would post those images with the caption, "Not particularly useful against an insurgency."


Well since there's never going to be an insurgency in America, we'll have to agree to disagree on how successful one would be.
 
2012-12-16 02:46:31 PM

vygramul: ...the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person...


1. I agree with you that an action does not suddenly become immoral when the legislature decides to criminalize it. That's the whole idea behind the concept of malum prohibitum. So, for example, before McDonald v. Chicago was decided in 2010, it was illegal to have a gun in your home in Chicago. Someone who chose to do so in contravention of this law was not, in my opinion, a bad person.
2. I disagree with your statement that illegally entering the U.S. does not make one a bad person. I think it does. It is akin to trespassing. Imagine you live in a crappy house, but your neighbor has a really nice place. Your neighbor is stupid enough to leave his front door unlocked. So, you just walk into his house and make yourself at home. The fact that it was easy for you to do this does not make your actions any less immoral. I would even go so far as to say that if your neighbor walks in and finds you in his house, it would be perfectly just for him to shoot you.
 
2012-12-16 02:49:46 PM
Interesting timing. They always let us know about their new encroachments on freedom when people are scared.
 
2012-12-16 02:51:00 PM
COINTELPRO lives. We need another break-in to end all break-ins.
 
2012-12-16 02:52:47 PM

1derful: U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


i560.photobucket.com

Here, have some more soma. Uncle Sam is buying.
 
2012-12-16 02:58:08 PM
But Farkers on the politics tab told me the Democrats were so different than Republicans! I know, BOTH SIDES ARE BAD SO VOTE REPUBLICAN!

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


So it is ok because your team is doing this shiat? You are part of the problem and make me sick.
 
2012-12-16 03:03:22 PM
Welcome to "this has always been happening anyway". But I'm glad you finally realized it.
 
2012-12-16 03:04:26 PM

machoprogrammer: But Farkers on the politics tab told me the Democrats were so different than Republicans! I know, BOTH SIDES ARE BAD SO VOTE REPUBLICAN!

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.

So it is ok because your team is doing this shiat? You are part of the problem and make me sick.


Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?
 
2012-12-16 03:05:01 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: I think it's more fundamental than that- it's the " you have to be lucky every time" effect.

Imagine you're the head of anti- terrorism efforts in the US. You've created the best group there's ever been- you've stopped hundreds of bombings, hijackings, shootings, and so forth. You've captured smuggled plutonium and sarin gas shipments. You've identified hundreds of possible attackers and had drones visit them before they become threats to US citizens.

And then one guy gets past you and kills a few thousand people.

You're now the guy who failed to prevent the biggest attack since 9/11. The blood of those people is on your hands. You're going to be dragged in front of endless groups to explain your complete failure at your job. You'll be studied in textbooks that show people how not to be like you.


www.scene-stealers.com

Yeah, I can see why they'd be asking for ever more information and power.

Rational thought and explanations are un-American, citizen.
 
2012-12-16 03:19:02 PM

Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)

I waded through that and found nothing of significance to change my stancela la la I can't hear you.

 
2012-12-16 03:26:44 PM

Bontesla: cman: Change we can believe in

You think that this didn't occur before?


FTFA: "The Obama administration's new rules come after previous surveillance proposals were struck down during the Bush administration, following widespread condemnation."

So, yeah, it didn't occur before, dumbass.
 
2012-12-16 03:28:34 PM
Hunh, I thought our government had been doing this since 9/11.
 
2012-12-16 03:28:38 PM
The GOP has been scared of the commies since Vietnam turned into a totally mismanaged failure. And Cuba of course. Oh, wait. Democrat John F. Kennedy backed the Russians and Cubans off.
 
2012-12-16 03:32:16 PM

Spade: We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.



Look at Northern Ireland's population. Using the current population, which is larger than it would have been at the PIRA's peak, that works out to the equivalent of 167,000 or so active terrorists in the US. And there is an enormous gap between the US military and any other western military. We have the strength of just about every other military in the world combined.

The idea that a few dopes with small arms could stand up against the US Armed Forces is entirely ludicrous. Wanna know how that turns out for you? Look at Waco- a bunch of morons getting themselves killed.
 
2012-12-16 03:43:29 PM

LasersHurt: Anything specific?


a little. i do know about some of the inaccurate info that is floating around the internet that is held by private companies. and i also know that some of it comes from tax records that are wrong. to defend the government as having completely accurate records is -- well silly.

as for fixing it, good luck with that. after fixing the wrong info a few times and having it come back again from archived files i stopped bothering. it hasn't been a big problem for me personally so i now ignore it.
 
2012-12-16 03:46:03 PM
This may be unfortunate in that it might leave room for error and abuse, but it's not unconstitutional and hardly unprecedented in function. For a bunch of people who readily gave out all of this info to private companies whose sole reason for requesting it is to make more money off of them, the black helicopter eyebrow raising is a bit over the top.
 
2012-12-16 03:59:56 PM
Mugato
the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

Duh? You've apparently never heard of guerrilla warfare?

not saying Americans would ever resort to that, mind you


Superjoe
This would concern me if I thought the government was organized enough to make any sense out of all that information. This comes across to me as bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.

The point is not to find people to go after. The point is to find dirt on people they want to go after, and figure out what makes them tick so they can be manipulated.


BMulligan
In case you haven't noticed, the people are the government.

4/10, too obvious
 
2012-12-16 04:02:48 PM

RanDomino: The point is not to find people to go after. The point is to find dirt on people they want to go after, and figure out what makes them tick so they can be manipulated.


If you don't have any dirt, then you have nothing to worry about, right? Or is that no longer a right wing talking point?
 
2012-12-16 04:05:09 PM
Does anybody else wonder why Eric Holder has a 1980's pornstache?

I think that's the really important question here.
 
2012-12-16 04:08:39 PM
You know who ELSE kept secret dossiers he shouldn't have??

mimg.ugo.com
 
2012-12-16 04:11:26 PM

RanDomino: Mugato
the US took Iraq and Afghanistan in about 20 minutes. Sure there were uprisings and US soldiers' deaths but as far as invasions go they were pretty farking easy.

Duh? You've apparently never heard of guerrilla warfare?

not saying Americans would ever resort to that, mind you


Yeah I've heard of it. And it worked against the US.....in Viet Nam. Kind of a completely different set of circumstances than the scenario the survivalist nuts are beating off to.
 
2012-12-16 04:12:12 PM

LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?


FTFA, the impression is they can use things like what you're buying or health services. If it's not available to the general public, it should require some minimal checking for federal agents to access it.
 
2012-12-16 04:13:35 PM

LasersHurt: Do you even know *exactly* what shiat is being done? I mean it, could you demonstrate an understanding of what this news is about?


Well, reading the article, it states:

Earlier this year, Attorney General Eric Holder granted the center the ability to copy entire government databases holding information on flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and other data, and to store it for up to five years, even without suspicion that someone in the database has committed a crime, according to the Wall Street Journal, which broke the story.

Whereas previously the law prohibited the center from storing data compilations on U.S. citizens unless they were suspected of terrorist activity or were relevant to an ongoing terrorism investigation, the new powers give the center the ability to not only collect and store vast databases of information but also to trawl through and analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior in order to uncover activity that could launch an investigation.


That would state that, yes, the Democrats are behind it. Or is Eric Holder now a Republican?
 
2012-12-16 04:35:40 PM

coco ebert: unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.

This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.


If I have a time machine, I will go back 8 years and post this on Fark just to see the stupid look on your face.

Keep up the groupthink and cognitive dissonance, Fark.
 
2012-12-16 04:39:34 PM

cptjeff: Spade: We could use Northern Ireland as another example.

And that only involved about 1000 active terrorists at any one time at the PIRA's peak.
Bunch of guys with mostly rifles and explosives versus one of the best Western militaries around.


Look at Northern Ireland's population. Using the current population, which is larger than it would have been at the PIRA's peak, that works out to the equivalent of 167,000 or so active terrorists in the US. And there is an enormous gap between the US military and any other western military. We have the strength of just about every other military in the world combined.


That would be, by my math, 0.09% of gun owners in the United States.
 
2012-12-16 04:45:37 PM

ChuDogg: Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


You may be able to trust this administration, but what about the administration after? And the one after that? And the ones many years in the future?

Start thinking like an American and stop thinking like a partisan dumbass.
 
2012-12-16 04:49:17 PM

Fallout Boy: coco ebert: unlikely: A bunch of us filed requests with the FBI to see what files they had on us. What came back was somewhere between surprising and "why do you waste your time with this?"

Anyone who thinks this article is something new doesn't remember the cold war or was ridiculously naive.

This. We've always violated the constitution throughout our country's history. Yet we like to fetishize the constitution and our treatment of it. Instead, we should honestly look at what we've done in the past and try to live up to the constitution (or change what we don't like about it) rather than reflecting back on glory days that never existed.

If I have a time machine, I will go back 8 years and post this on Fark just to see the stupid look on your face.

Keep up the groupthink and cognitive dissonance, Fark.


WTF happened 8 years ago?
 
2012-12-16 04:53:15 PM
First they say I can't own black people. Then they say women can vote. Constitution has been going downhill for a while.
. Take me back to 1790 when everything was just swe
 
2012-12-16 05:03:10 PM

mike0023: vygramul: ...the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person...

1. I agree with you that an action does not suddenly become immoral when the legislature decides to criminalize it. That's the whole idea behind the concept of malum prohibitum. So, for example, before McDonald v. Chicago was decided in 2010, it was illegal to have a gun in your home in Chicago. Someone who chose to do so in contravention of this law was not, in my opinion, a bad person.
2. I disagree with your statement that illegally entering the U.S. does not make one a bad person. I think it does. It is akin to trespassing. Imagine you live in a crappy house, but your neighbor has a really nice place. Your neighbor is stupid enough to leave his front door unlocked. So, you just walk into his house and make yourself at home. The fact that it was easy for you to do this does not make your actions any less immoral. I would even go so far as to say that if your neighbor walks in and finds you in his house, it would be perfectly just for him to shoot you.


What if your invading trespasser was 3 years old? Still bad?
 
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