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(Wired)   Well, the Constitution was nice while it lasted   (wired.com) divider line 193
    More: Sad, attorney generals, National Counterterrorism Center, Abdulmutallab, NCTC, Kim Zetter, registered sex offender, fantasy films, UK Threat Levels  
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13666 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Dec 2012 at 12:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-16 01:02:53 PM

1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.


Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.
 
2012-12-16 01:04:31 PM
There have always been forces in the American government that seek to restrict freedom.

The earliest example would be the "Alien and Sedition Acts" of 1798. Which among other things essentially made it illegal to criticize the President or Congress. But not the Vice President, because at the time it was the Presidential candidate who arrived in second place that became the Vice President, meaning he was likely to be a member of the opposition party.

At several points we've had anti-sedition laws passed during wartime, and in fact the WW2-era law on the subject (the Smith Act) is still technically on the books but has not been enforced for decades. Which the Tea Party should be thankful for, since it specifically banned advocating the overthrow of the American government, which is something the Tea Party has done even if it's highly improbable they've actually try it.
 
2012-12-16 01:05:06 PM
What is this "Constitution" of which you speak?
 
2012-12-16 01:05:55 PM

BronyMedic:

Good morning America. The year is 1935, and I would like to introduce you to a new force for Law Enforcement in the United States, the FBI.

/It's cute you think this started with Obama.


Lame strawman.

No one says it started with 0bama.

It just has gotten a lot worse under 0bama's "leadership".

or are you saying that you support this?
 
2012-12-16 01:06:05 PM

whistleridge: Counter_Intelligent: Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.

Or just French.

dossier

Nom masculin singulier

1. partie de siège, de chaise, de fauteuil, contre laquelle s'appuie le dos
2. ensemble de documents concernant une même affaire, une même personne
3. chemise en carton contenant ces documents
4. par extension problème, question, sujet
(informatique) métaphoriquement, ensemble de fichiers regroupés dans un même emplacement


25.media.tumblr.com

"Say it in 'Merican, sumbiatch!"
 
2012-12-16 01:07:13 PM

Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.


Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.
 
2012-12-16 01:09:03 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.


And I suppose Romney would have been a better alternative?
 
2012-12-16 01:10:33 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Hoover V2.0 as AG


You know how I know that you don't know fark-all about J. Edgar Hoover? I mean, aside from the fact that you don't know fark-all about anything.
 
2012-12-16 01:15:05 PM
This is information the government is already collecting and has been for years - it just gives access to that information to a centralized agency (the exact sort of thing that would have prevented 9/11). There are civil liberty issues that are deserving of the level of outrage ITT, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The only bit that really concerns me is that part about sharing the information with foreign governments.
 
2012-12-16 01:15:37 PM

BMulligan: tenpoundsofcheese: Hoover V2.0 as AG

You know how I know that you don't know fark-all about J. Edgar Hoover? I mean, aside from the fact that you don't know fark-all about anything.


No, how?

I think Hoover 1.0 would have liked the idea of being able to kill US citizens with drones without the pesky trial thing.
 
2012-12-16 01:17:34 PM
Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.
 
2012-12-16 01:17:49 PM

Snapper Carr: This is information the government is already collecting and has been for years - it just gives access to that information to a centralized agency (the exact sort of thing that would have prevented 9/11). There are civil liberty issues that are deserving of the level of outrage ITT, but I'm not sure this is one of them. The only bit that really concerns me is that part about sharing the information with foreign governments.


so you are okay with it except for what they are actually doing? how does that make any sense?
 
2012-12-16 01:18:55 PM

swahnhennessy: Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.


I think some people evaluate things based on their impact, not just the ideological implications.
 
2012-12-16 01:19:45 PM

Mrbogey: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Now you righttards and wingnuts who hate B. Hussein Osama's guts, answer me this: If you want B. Hussein Osama gone so badly, why don't you go after him on the surveillance state? On the War on Terra?

We have been.


Citation needed.

Obama allowed a drone strike on an American citizen. That's something even Bush didn't have the gumption to do. Nobody who supported Barack Obama cares though.

O RLY? (Be sure to read the comments, not just the diary)
 
2012-12-16 01:20:12 PM
My sister, who is a mostly harmless drunk, tried to get a job at Home Depot a couple of years ago. Interview went well. But it turns out that the FBI has her on some kind of "watch list", so she was turned down.

She made some effort to figure out what was going on, but learned she had to appear in Atlanta in person to talk to anyone about it. So she gave up.

/True story
 
2012-12-16 01:20:12 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.


Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10
 
2012-12-16 01:21:27 PM

swahnhennessy: Until Americans make it an issue, no politician is going to do a damn thing about civil liberties. A few might give it some lip service while they're hoping to unseat another politician, but once they get that power, they're extremely unlikely to give it up.

What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties. Granted, there is a whole subset of liberals, myself included, who are firmly against such policies, no matter who the president is, but we're often called Republicans or viewed as so far out of the mainstream as to be unrealistic and just plain loopy.

Sad, really.


You clearly have no idea what the liberal complaints about Geroge W. Bush were.
 
2012-12-16 01:23:01 PM

gadian: My dossier would be a list of dirty websites I've visited and a comment that I eat too much junk food and could really use a few laps around the block.


Pretty easy to put together, too, considering the Wired article has at least 15 demographic tracking tags, along with at least 7 on this page.
 
2012-12-16 01:25:26 PM

LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?


When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.
 
2012-12-16 01:25:29 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: vygramul: I sometimes have to wonder if people in those positions lose perspective or are genuinely frightened by the threats. I knew a libbiest lib that ever libbed lifetime liberal lib who got a job dealing with the threat of terrorism coming across our borders and became a rabid "OMG SEAL THE BORDERS!" person based not on they're stealing our jobs, not on the notion that law and morality were the same so, by definition, being an illegal alien made you a bad person, and not based on concerns over their not integrating. It was purely a reaction to terrorism.

So is it a result of their being too close to the problem, or is it because the threat is that grave? I suspect too close to the problem.

I'd go with too close to the problem.

CSB: My sister used to date a cop. I remember always being surprised at how he immediately assumed people were up to something nefarious if they were doing anything even remotely out of the ordinary. I remember one time we were driving through the country and passed a guy walking along the roadside, and he muttered "WTF is this asshole doing? Probably stealing corn." I asked him if he realized these were feed corn, not sweet corn fields, and that he wasn't carrying any sort of bags, so he'd be able to steal an armload of corn that people basically can't eat, then he'd have to walk it wherever he wanted to take it. Perhaps if he wanted to steal corn wouldn't it make more sense to just pull over his car, open the trunk, and throw a bunch in before driving away? He was still convinced the guy was up to something wrong.


I think it's more fundamental than that- it's the " you have to be lucky every time" effect.

Imagine you're the head of anti- terrorism efforts in the US. You've created the best group there's ever been- you've stopped hundreds of bombings, hijackings, shootings, and so forth. You've captured smuggled plutonium and sarin gas shipments. You've identified hundreds of possible attackers and had drones visit them before they become threats to US citizens.

And then one guy gets past you and kills a few thousand people.

You're now the guy who failed to prevent the biggest attack since 9/11. The blood of those people is on your hands. You're going to be dragged in front of endless groups to explain your complete failure at your job. You'll be studied in textbooks that show people how not to be like you.

Yeah, I can see why they'd be asking for ever more information and power.
 
2012-12-16 01:26:25 PM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10


wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

0/10 for phoning it in.
 
2012-12-16 01:26:57 PM

LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?


i do. you have any idea just how much wrong info is in those databases? and how hard it is to even see it, let alone fix it? that's a problem when "the government" will be making decisions based on that info.
 
2012-12-16 01:27:09 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10

wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

0/10 for phoning it in.


You fail.
 
2012-12-16 01:27:12 PM
The Stazi in East Germany had 2,000,000 informers out of an East German population of 16,000,000.

They were unable to keep the government in power and prevent the Communism from being dissolved.

It's one thing to keep files on everyone, it's another to make sense of the information and daw relevant conclusions.

The FBI had all the info they needed to stop the 9/11 terrorist. But we're unable to connect the dots. Agents that did connect the dos were overruled by incompetent management.

This will accomplish the exactly the same.
 
2012-12-16 01:29:37 PM

sugardave: We can thank thoughtful insights such as "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" for shiat like this.


it does seem like we got what we wanted. well some got that, others of us are pissed at the stupidity.
 
2012-12-16 01:29:42 PM

Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.


U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.
 
2012-12-16 01:31:27 PM

Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: tenpoundsofcheese: Krieghund:

I came here to say this and to post a picture of J. Edgar Hoover.

Cute.
We now have Carter V2.0 as president and Hoover V2.0 as AG.

Yes, this is exactly the change we can believe in.

Wrong.

You lose.

But nice effort to derp. 1/10

wow. another one of your compelling, well thought out arguments.
you sound tired.
very tired.
tired.

0/10 for phoning it in.

You fail.


awww, someone is all butt hurt for the self-imposed reaming in that other thread.

you'll get over it.
 
2012-12-16 01:31:32 PM

qorkfiend: You clearly have no idea what the liberal complaints about Geroge W. Bush were.


You clearly have no memory of me on this very same website during those years. Don't tell me what you think I know.
 
2012-12-16 01:32:37 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-16 01:32:50 PM

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Again, what deterrent? Do you honestly think the government gives a shiat about the threat of the people rising up and overthrowing it with their handguns and hunting rifles?
 
2012-12-16 01:34:03 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: My sister used to date a cop.


for your sake i'm glad you used the past tense. probably her sake too.
 
2012-12-16 01:36:26 PM

1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.


Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.
 
2012-12-16 01:36:45 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


img27.imageshack.us

img21.imageshack.us

img690.imageshack.us


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.
 
2012-12-16 01:39:20 PM

whistleridge: Counter_Intelligent: Whoever invented the word "dossier" was a genius or a spy. Perhaps both.

Or just French.

dossier

Nom masculin singulier

1. partie de siège, de chaise, de fauteuil, contre laquelle s'appuie le dos
2. ensemble de documents concernant une même affaire, une même personne
3. chemise en carton contenant ces documents
4. par extension problème, question, sujet
(informatique) métaphoriquement, ensemble de fichiers regroupés dans un même emplacement


Nope. Whoever made "dossier" was all, "Now zat I have all zese documents containing le sécret informaçion, I will need le cool word to call zem." Thus, "dossier" as born.
 
2012-12-16 01:39:50 PM
Sorry, cheese.

I forgot that saying something incredibly stupid then declaring yourself the winner is your thing.

I won't do it again.
 
2012-12-16 01:40:23 PM

SomeoneDumb: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.


Actually this is complete bullshiat. There is no reason to distrust the US government, which is mostly very benevolent. This is just Republican propaganda.
 
2012-12-16 01:41:26 PM

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Nice rebuttal, but I didn't say anything about having "no problem" with a government spying on it's people.

Curious: LasersHurt: We can search databases = "dossier on every citizen"?

Does anyone have any reactions to this that aren't reactionary fear?

i do. you have any idea just how much wrong info is in those databases? and how hard it is to even see it, let alone fix it? that's a problem when "the government" will be making decisions based on that info.


Do YOU know what's "in those databases"? And how hard it is to see? Or what decisions might be made? What's even being looked for? Anything specific?
 
2012-12-16 01:41:45 PM

Brick-House: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 640x456]


classy. Looks like some "conservative" is really butthurt.

I'm sure his children are learning a valuable lessons about the spirit of Christmas and civic participation.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:04 PM

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


Yeah, I mean, look at how fast they crushed Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:21 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


"Funny!"ed.
 
2012-12-16 01:42:35 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


U.S. Government has far more impressive weaponry than any number of citizens.
 
2012-12-16 01:43:04 PM

Snapper Carr: If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


you know i doubt that. first we don't have history of blindly following orders and second ... well we don't need a second then do we?
 
2012-12-16 01:43:11 PM
There aren't many people left who genuinely care. A large majority of this country shrugged years ago and decided, "If I'm not doing anything wrong, it can't hurt me."

A lot of them will find out how mistaken that view is one day.
 
2012-12-16 01:43:33 PM
BronyMedic
/It's cute you think this started with Obama.

upload.wikimedia.org

It's cute that you think this started with the FBI

At what point do the exceptions just become the rules?

/yes, I'm aware Hoover was critical in the raids


ChuDogg
Honestly, I am not worried, the last election proved that Republicans will never sit in the Oval Office again, so they will never have the opportunity to misuse their powers (can anybody say *cough*BUSH?*cough)

Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Either 7/10 or Poe's Law


swahnhennessy
What I don't get is why liberals will defend the Obama administration for so much of the same stuff that was horrible when Bush was doing it. It reeks of petty home-team loyalties.

No, you get it. White middle-class liberals are in the same class as white middle-class conservatives, and all it breaks down to is whether you support Red Team or Blue Team because it's just a game to feel like there's an important and meaningful struggle going on and you can make a difference. A manufactured solution to a manufactured problem to give meaning to a meaningless life. The whole middle class is part of a trick to drive a wedge between proles by giving some privilege; electoral politics is an important part of that trick.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:43 PM

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


That's not true. I know some guys with AR-15s. It's the gov't that needs to worry.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:57 PM

1derful: LasersHurt: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Someone might have some data on you, so you should be ready to kill?

When there are people like you who have no problem with a government spying on it's own people, it's good to have a deterrent to extreme overreach.


Do you understand how hilarious that sounds? That the Federal Government is somehow scurred of little Jethro and his gun show Chinese AK? Do you honestly think there's a single person on The Hill who is even slightly concerned about an armed uprising?

They've got tanks. Drones. Bombers. Guided missiles. Advanced weaponry, including but not limited to HERF guns, MASERs, "pain rays", immobilizing gas, etc. Not only that, but they have people on their payroll who are fully willing to use those toys on an uppity civilian militia. They don't even have to use lethal force! They can simply disable any person or group of people with non-lethal weaponry within seconds, all at the push of a button!

Nobody is scared of a revolution, because they know it can never succeed. The days of a man and a rifle being all that's required to put real pressure on a government are loooooooooong past.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:59 PM

Snapper Carr: 1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.

[img27.imageshack.us image 593x445]

[img21.imageshack.us image 600x600]

[img690.imageshack.us image 800x532]


If the government ever gets serious about totalitarianism we're farked.


I'm not too worried about drones and tanks. The government has much more powerful tools to control the populace.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:20 PM

ilambiquated: SomeoneDumb: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Leaving the arms phrase alone, distrust seems to me to be a sign of paranoia. Suspicion is a good thing, but distrust is probably a bridge too far.

Actually this is complete bullshiat. There is no reason to distrust the US government, which is mostly very benevolent. This is just Republican propaganda.


That's why I called distrust paranoia. It's not justified by any stretch of the imagination.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:57 PM

ChuDogg: Sorry Repubs, we have a REAL leader in the presidency now who displays empathy and courage. One who would never misuse his power for personal gain or nefarious purposes. I trust him. And I trust that the use of these powers makes us all a bit safer now. And I sleep better at night knowing we have a competent administration looking into these matters and making the world that much a better place.


Lol.
 
2012-12-16 01:46:58 PM

1derful: Mugato: 1derful: shiat like this is why the right to bear arms and distrust of government is a good thing.

Yeah, like you're ever going to do anything. The government is scared shiatless of you.

U.S. citizens own over 300 million firearms. That deters government totalitarianism.


No. It really doesn't.

The number of Real Americans that would raise up in arms against "tyranny" would pale to the number that think "WTF are these idiots doing?" The "patriots" will be seen as domestic terrorists and opposed by an overwhelming majority, who will be backed by the military, and the "revolutionaries" will get squashed like bug (with about as much effort).
 
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