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(Washington Post)   Why "The Hobbit" is a Christian film   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 121
    More: Interesting, Christian film, Nordic countries, Lexington, Kentucky, C.S. Lewis, liberal arts colleges, subtext  
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4863 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 15 Dec 2012 at 9:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-15 08:22:34 PM
Tolkein was a staunch Catholic, but he wasn't particularly overt in his books. Well, as long as you don't count all the goddamn singing his characters do.
 
2012-12-15 08:27:23 PM
Because Jesus Christ, how long can you stretch this story out?
 
2012-12-15 08:48:24 PM
So was all the shiat that CS Lewis wrote. So what? The question is whether it's a good story or not.

And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.
 
2012-12-15 08:58:58 PM
I'd follow Gandalf or Aslan over most of the bible.

They kick ass and are intelligently designed.
 
2012-12-15 09:00:08 PM

Lsherm: Tolkein was a staunch Catholic, but he wasn't particularly overt in his books. Well, as long as you don't count all the goddamn singing his characters do.


I don't view them as religious stories, except in that Tolkien's religion would have informed his world view and his sense of what is right and what is wrong. Frodo and Bilbo are not allegorical Jesuses (Jesii?) they're more along the lines of Joseph Campbell's hero with a thousand faces.
 
2012-12-15 09:02:43 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.


I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.
 
2012-12-15 09:09:12 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.


Try Bored of The Rings

/much more entertaining
//Tolkein bored me sh*tless, too
 
2012-12-15 09:14:04 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk:
Try Bored of The Rings

/much more entertaining



I got a copy of that from Bogey's Books in Davis, but I'll be damned if I can remember what happened to it.
 
2012-12-15 09:25:44 PM
i1079.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-15 09:26:21 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.


What do you think of the Twilight series?
 
2012-12-15 09:27:17 PM
Pfft! Next thing you'll be trying to tell me The Chronicles of Narnia is some kind of Christian allegory.
 
2012-12-15 09:27:27 PM
IMO the case for LOTR being a religious morality play is much stronger The Hobbitt grew from a series of bedtime stories Tolkien told his children - while there may have been some nugget of a religious moral to the stories buried here and there it wasn't really meant as such.
 
2012-12-15 09:29:14 PM
Yes, with all the Norse themes and Celtic imagery, it's easy to see the Christian basis in there.

....why do people keep trying?
 
2012-12-15 09:32:25 PM
Only in the sense that Tolkien wrote fiction that reflected his worldview. You can't separate Tolkien's faith from his work because you can't separate his faith from his life. His work is going to reflect that because it was important to him, just like his work reflects his love of nature and his belief that industrialized factories were dehumanizing.
 
2012-12-15 09:34:11 PM
a professor of English at Asbury University, a Christian liberal arts college near Lexington, Ky

"What a waste of time."
 
2012-12-15 09:35:38 PM
Jesus.
 
2012-12-15 09:40:47 PM
I'll join in with the group that says Tolkiens writing was boring. It was, I'm not saying that they weren't interesting just that they did little to hold my interest. And yes, I am a reader of real books
 
2012-12-15 09:42:12 PM

fusillade762: Pfft! Next thing you'll be trying to tell me The Chronicles of Narnia is some kind of Christian allegory.


It's not. C.S. Lewis specifically asserted that while he was playing with Christian themes, Narnia was not to be read as allegory but rather as a fairy tale. The Narnia books are Lewis playing around with Tolkien's assertion, in his academic writing, that fairy tales follow the same basic framework and themes of the gospel story.
 
2012-12-15 09:46:05 PM
I would contend that the bible, and Christianity in general, is a fairy tale. The Brothers Grimm did it better...
 
2012-12-15 09:46:14 PM
Is it a Christian film? Well, I saw it and nothing biblical occurred to me. Especially the brown wizard who was played by Doctor Who, who seemed more like a Druid (nature worshipper who uses earth based magic and is more concerned with the health of the forest than anything else) than as anything Christian.

Personally, I hate it when people look to popular movies or stories to prove that the story or characters are Christian tales or characters.
 
2012-12-15 09:48:35 PM
"an everyman who has no ability, a total dolt who has no skills," as Jane Chance, professor emeritus of English at Rice University and editor of "Tolkien and the Invention of Myth," put it.

The hell you say.

Bilbo made a mean batch of seed cakes and put together one hell of a spread on the shortest possible notice. And he had a cellar for his beer, which makes him aces in my book right off the bat.
 
2012-12-15 09:48:44 PM
Time to pull this out again:

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." - JRR Tolkien

No, neither The Hobbit nor The LOTR is an allegory for the Bible or for World War II or for communism or your burnt popcorn, for that matter. Get over it.
 
2012-12-15 09:51:43 PM
Bilbo fought a dragon, just like jesus.
 
2012-12-15 09:52:37 PM

Wayne 985: Time to pull this out again:

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." - JRR Tolkien

No, neither The Hobbit nor The LOTR is an allegory for the Bible or for World War II or for communism or your burnt popcorn, for that matter. Get over it.


Didn't read the article, eh?
 
2012-12-15 09:54:42 PM

Trade Secret: I'll join in with the group that says Tolkiens writing was boring. It was, I'm not saying that they weren't interesting just that they did little to hold my interest. And yes, I am a reader of real books


Agreed. Now don't get me wrong, his ideas and world development are amazing, and a big part of why I turned into such a huge nerd. That being said, it took me five attempts to completely read LotR because I would find myself skimming until something interesting was happening, and I gave up on the Simarillion fast.
 
2012-12-15 09:58:38 PM
Thought the movie was good. Just finished seeing it. Do not understand all these reviewers shiatting all over it.

Felt they set up the next two movies and did a good job explaining things. Wasnt bored at all then again I am a fan of these books.

Dont really think the movie could have been done another way satisfyingly. Not that Bakshi didnt try.

Thought it was well made and a sharp movie. King kong on the other hand....dear lord.

The christian aspect? Yeah I do believe like the bible there are many made up stories that could be compared to the bible. Like the Middle earth stories or anything else we just pull out of our asses.

As long as it is entertaining I am ok with it. Now actually beleiving that shiat is real....dear me.
 
2012-12-15 09:59:03 PM
I had to write a paper in college about the religious overtones in the Shawshank Redemption.
 
2012-12-15 10:04:07 PM
Tolkien was indeed a devout Catholic and one can certainly see that influence in the cosmology of Middle Earth as well as numerous mythological elements (particularly Eru Illuvatar as an expy of Yahweh), but beyond that it's not very prominent.

It's very Hero's Journey, with an extra splash of homespun Hobbityness, not Christian allegory.
 
2012-12-15 10:09:39 PM
Is 'The Hobbit' a 'Christian' film? Yes and no.

FTFthem
 
2012-12-15 10:10:05 PM

s2s2s2: Wayne 985: Time to pull this out again:

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." - JRR Tolkien

No, neither The Hobbit nor The LOTR is an allegory for the Bible or for World War II or for communism or your burnt popcorn, for that matter. Get over it.

Didn't read the article, eh?


I did. The author quoted someone else who paraphrase the Tolkien quote, and yet he disregarded it.
 
2012-12-15 10:13:26 PM
Has anyone read the Koran?

I swear a Christian must have written it. And don't get me started on Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, wow, it's like Jim Jones wrote it.
 
2012-12-15 10:13:32 PM

Blasphemous Knave: Tolkien was indeed a devout Catholic and one can certainly see that influence in the cosmology of Middle Earth as well as numerous mythological elements (particularly Eru Illuvatar as an expy of Yahweh), but beyond that it's not very prominent.

It's very Hero's Journey, with an extra splash of homespun Hobbityness, not Christian allegory.


Yeah its fun to notice humans just make shiat up. I am sure there are some serious nerds who believe this stuff happened too....

I am talking about the bible if you didnt know.
 
2012-12-15 10:15:13 PM
Of course it is. The problem is when certain persons try to interpret this type of "Christian" story only as a sermon. There are many "Christian" stories which are good literature, yet when you try to make them sermons or the the most shallow kinds of parables, and so put them on the level of all the other drivil called "Christian media," is doing the story, and the reader, a disservice.

Of course, when your entire religion consists of "saving souls and following rules," you won't appreciate that problem in the first place.
 
2012-12-15 10:17:40 PM
Tolkien may have been a devout Christian, but he was also extremely opposed to the idea that his stories contained any sort of allegory, so I'm gonna go with "no" on this one.
 
2012-12-15 10:30:48 PM

Great Janitor: Is it a Christian film? Well, I saw it and nothing biblical occurred to me. Especially the brown wizard who was played by Doctor Who, who seemed more like a Druid (nature worshipper who uses earth based magic and is more concerned with the health of the forest than anything else) than as anything Christian.

Personally, I hate it when people look to popular movies or stories to prove that the story or characters are Christian tales or characters.


In this case, it's because the books were written by Christians who admitted their religion influenced their work. It's more an exploration of the literature, not the movie.
 
2012-12-15 10:32:34 PM
So are we gonna get a review from our fine friends at CapAlert?

capalert.com

Wonder how this falls on the W I S D O M meters
 
2012-12-15 10:37:40 PM

Lsherm: Great Janitor: Is it a Christian film? Well, I saw it and nothing biblical occurred to me. Especially the brown wizard who was played by Doctor Who, who seemed more like a Druid (nature worshipper who uses earth based magic and is more concerned with the health of the forest than anything else) than as anything Christian.

Personally, I hate it when people look to popular movies or stories to prove that the story or characters are Christian tales or characters.

In this case, it's because the books were written by Christians who admitted their religion influenced their work. It's more an exploration of the literature, not the movie.



Cool hand luke...lol.
 
2012-12-15 10:38:58 PM
I think I recall that C.S. Lewis, JRR Tolkien, and G. K. Chesterton were drinking buddies.
 
2012-12-15 10:45:35 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.


Here's how boring I thought The Hobbit was: I preferred Solzhenitsyn.
 
2012-12-15 10:49:26 PM

Thunderboy: antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.

Here's how boring I thought The Hobbit was: I preferred Solzhenitsyn.


Watched hobbit cartoon as a kid. its not boring. so the book was fine. enjoyed it easy read.

this is final farewell to the tolkien univserse. peter jackson seems to have it right so far.
 
2012-12-15 10:53:19 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: So was all the shiat that CS Lewis wrote. So what? The question is whether it's a good story or not.

And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.


Methinks me remembers that J.R.R. and C. S. were close friends.
 
2012-12-15 10:53:36 PM

graggor: this is final farewell to the tolkien univserse. peter jackson seems to have it right so far.


Just wait until he gets his hands on the Silmarilion. It'll probably end up being 16 four hour movies.
 
2012-12-15 10:55:06 PM
The figure who gives his life to defeat evil and allow man's salvation was Gollum. Just sayin', is all.
 
2012-12-15 10:55:13 PM
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488192/81309491#c81309491" target="_blank">b2theory</a>:</b> <i>I think I recall that C.S. Lewis, JRR Tolkien, and G. K. Chesterton were drinking buddies.</i>

Call it an inkling, if you will.
 
2012-12-15 10:56:04 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.

Try Bored of The Rings

/much more entertaining
//Tolkein bored me sh*tless, too


"Tolkein"?

Customer Not to worry, not to worry. Can you help me with 'David Copperfield'?
Assistant Ah, yes. Dickens ...
Customer No.
Assistant ... I beg your pardon?
Customer No, Edmund Wells.
Assistant ... I think you'll find Charles Dickens wrote 'David Copperfield', sir.
Customer No, Charles Dickens wrote 'David Copperfield' with two 'p's. This is 'David Coperfield' with one 'p' by Edmund Wells.
Assistant (a little sharply) Well in that case we don't have it.
Customer Funny, you've got a lot of books here.
Assistant We do have quite a lot of books here, yes, but we don't have David Coperfield' with one 'p' by Edmund Wells. We only have 'David Copperfield' with two 'p's by Charles Dickens.
Customer Pity - it's more thorough than the Dickens.
Assistant More thorough?
Customer Yes ... I wonder if it's worth having a look through all your 'David Copperfields'...
Assistant I'm quite sure all our 'David Copperfields' have two 'p's.
Customer Probably, but the first edition by Edmund Wells also had two 'p's. It was after that they ran into copyright difficulties.
 
2012-12-15 11:03:13 PM
Don't worry guys. If The Hobbit is too boring I'm sure Michael Bay is working on something that'll be more your speed.
 
2012-12-15 11:04:38 PM

Gyrfalcon: Yes, with all the Norse themes and Celtic imagery, it's easy to see the Christian basis in there.

....why do people keep trying?


Great Janitor: Is it a Christian film? Well, I saw it and nothing biblical occurred to me. Especially the brown wizard who was played by Doctor Who, who seemed more like a Druid (nature worshipper who uses earth based magic and is more concerned with the health of the forest than anything else) than as anything Christian.

Personally, I hate it when people look to popular movies or stories to prove that the story or characters are Christian tales or characters.


The Wizards have been explicitly stated by Tolkien to be minor spirits, the Maiar, in the guise of old men. The Maiar, along with their greater brethren, the Valar, were created by the Illuvitar, the one true god. See the Judeo-Christian influence? Two levels of angel under an omniscient god. Tolkien wrote his stories as if humans mistook the lesser agents of an almighty god for gods themselves.

To go further, ancient Jewish, Christian, and especially Muslim tradition assigns specific colors to angels. If you notice, the Wizards are all assigned a color. This is not an accident. The Wizards, as spirits, are equated with angels.

Tolkien stated that much of his story world came of his desire to reconcile his love of Nordic myth with his Catholic faith. So yes, the stories are heavily influenced by Christian and Catholic ideas. You should also note the dates used in LoTR; they are frequently associated with traditional dates used in the Catholic calendar, especially March 25.
 
2012-12-15 11:05:37 PM
Seriously, you people south of the border need to get a grip. Are you really that hard up?
 
2012-12-15 11:06:36 PM
Hah! In case anyone cares, at this very moment there's a story about finding Catholicism in Tolkien on the Catholic cable network, EWTN.
 
2012-12-15 11:08:36 PM
Themes of universal interest to human beings tend to be in play in any legend or any tale that aspires to resemble a legend. They also quite naturally appear in human religions.
 
2012-12-15 11:10:36 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.


Michael Bay is awesome, right?
 
2012-12-15 11:12:52 PM

AeAe: antidisestablishmentarianism: AverageAmericanGuy: And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.

I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.

Michael Bay is awesome, right?



Yeah Stephen King never gets long winded....Crichton? seriously? yeah never long winded either.

Michael Bay...I would love to see his version of the hobbit...
 
2012-12-15 11:23:50 PM

Wayne 985: I did. The author quoted someone else who paraphrase the Tolkien quote, and yet he disregarded it.


Subby's headline is misleading. Have a lovely evening.
 
2012-12-15 11:25:45 PM
It IS "yes" and "no":

* Pulls down "The Letters of JRR Tolkien" (1981 Allen and Unwin).*

Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman of Collins Publishing House in 1951 that, while he was attempting to create something quite new, that's inevitably doomed because all good myths resemble one another - there's creation, fall and redemption (or not, presumably).

Specifically, he says:

"I dislike allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language (and, of course, the more 'life' a story has, the more readily it will be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story)."
 
2012-12-15 11:25:54 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.


The Hobbit is a children's story you can finish in a couple of hours - if you couldn't - I highly doubt you could make it through any Stephen King novel.
 
2012-12-15 11:27:23 PM

gingerjet: antidisestablishmentarianism: I tried reading The Hobbit in middle school. I didn't get very far before I was bored out of my skull. I preferred Stephen King and Michael Crichton over Tolkein.

The Hobbit is a children's story you can finish in a couple of hours - if you couldn't - I highly doubt you could make it through any Stephen King novel.


Exactly right. Really easy read.
 
2012-12-15 11:28:06 PM
I've yet to find a movie which hasn't been interpreted as such.
 
2012-12-15 11:35:11 PM

DamnYankees: I've yet to find a movie which hasn't been interpreted as such.


Life of Brian?
 
2012-12-15 11:38:16 PM
Tolkien in his second edition LOTR foreword stated that "one should not confuse allegory with applicability." Mind you, I doubt the author has read the Hobbit within the last quarter century, let along ever reading the foreword to LOTR.
 
2012-12-15 11:45:11 PM
I must have read it 8 times, but it never had a Catholic vibe at all. ymmv
 
2012-12-15 11:47:53 PM
I think I might like boring stories. I never got bored reading any Tolkein, and I like David Lean films.
 
2012-12-15 11:52:22 PM
Because it's fiction too?
 
2012-12-15 11:53:32 PM

thisispete: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488192/81309491#c81309491" target="_blank">b2theory</a>:</b> <i>I think I recall that C.S. Lewis, JRR Tolkien, and G. K. Chesterton were drinking buddies.</i>

Call it an inkling, if you will.


Also, Charles Williams, whose work is altogether under appreciated.
 
2012-12-15 11:53:35 PM

impaler: I like David Lean films.


Those are considered "boring"?

WTF??

/loved LOTR and the Hobbit when I read it as a kid, and while I'm well read I am not a "reader" in that I've never found enough time
 
2012-12-15 11:54:13 PM
i21.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-15 11:58:58 PM
ftfa
"Brown, whose book, "The Christian World of the Hobbit," was published in October by Abingdon Press"

aaaaand way to go Fark

helping this douchenozzle plug his book.
 
2012-12-16 12:01:57 AM
I wonder how Lord of the Rings would've turned out if Gandalf had failed to stop the balrog under Moria and it killed the rest of the fellowship and took possession of the One Ring.
 
2012-12-16 12:07:07 AM

MurphyMurphy: ftfa
"Brown, whose book, "The Christian World of the Hobbit," was published in October by Abingdon Press"

aaaaand way to go Fark

helping this douchenozzle plug his book.


Except that, you know, in his letters and such, Tolkien explicitly says that he draws from many sources, including Christian myths, making this a pretty legitimate scholarly approach to take. And stuff.
 
2012-12-16 12:07:56 AM

Arumat: I wonder how Lord of the Rings would've turned out if Gandalf had failed to stop the balrog under Moria and it killed the rest of the fellowship and took possession of the One Ring.


Isn't that how we got Putin?
 
2012-12-16 12:10:05 AM

Arumat: I wonder how Lord of the Rings would've turned out if Gandalf had failed to stop the balrog under Moria and it killed the rest of the fellowship and took possession of the One Ring.


'Well, This is a Waste of Time" by JRR Tolkien
 
2012-12-16 12:17:57 AM
images4.wikia.nocookie.net
Three, three threads about the hobbit on fark in one day, ah ah ah
 
2012-12-16 12:19:18 AM

BumpInTheNight: [images4.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x650]
Three, three threads about the hobbit on fark in one day, ah ah ah


Not enough. I'm farking excited to see it. I will on Monday.
 
2012-12-16 12:19:27 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com


Makes sense. I view the Hobbit as a continuation of the Christian themes in all of Peter Jackson's other films.
 
2012-12-16 12:37:39 AM

Raharu: I'd follow Gandalf or Aslan over most of the bible.

They kick ass and are intelligently designed.


This. Never saw Gandalf as Jebus, but I love Aslan as a Jebus metaphor.
 
2012-12-16 12:55:33 AM
If it gets otherwise strict Christian parents to expose their Christian children to Tolkien's tales, sure, why not.
 
2012-12-16 01:06:46 AM

s2s2s2: Wayne 985: I did. The author quoted someone else who paraphrase the Tolkien quote, and yet he disregarded it.

Subby's headline is misleading. Have a lovely evening.


You too. Keep herping that derp, my friend.
 
2012-12-16 01:18:03 AM

MagnesDrachen: Because it's fiction too?


Awesome
 
2012-12-16 01:20:09 AM

Psycoholic_Slag: MagnesDrachen: Because it's fiction too?

Awesome


So true.

A book written 30 years after Jesus died should be trusted.

20 years after elvis died people claim he is still alive and many facts are gotten wrong about his life.

And we have documents and people who lives during the time getting this stuff wrong.

hilarious what people will believe.
 
2012-12-16 01:28:51 AM

beantowndog: Bilbo fought a dragon, just like jesus.


Or St.George.
 
2012-12-16 01:30:54 AM
LOTR etc. has many infliuences to it, and Christianity is just one of them. However, you can say there was more influence on the struggle between nature and industrialisation and the effects of WW1. There's a fair hint of promoting traditions, and joining up, and the fight against being a cog in the machine. There also a large amount of morality and ethics in there.

However, most importantly is it s a lingual exercise, because he thought people would make less fun of him for making up new languages if he applied them to fantasy novels.
 
2012-12-16 01:34:08 AM

Because Catholics and the RCC take what they want, force you to convert at swordpoint (or kill you if you refused) and then call it their own?

lh4.googleusercontent.comlh3.googleusercontent.comlh4.googleusercontent.com

/WAIT TIL I TELL YOU ABOUT EASTER...
 
2012-12-16 01:38:22 AM
What a bunch of fuggin' crap... i just started reading TFA... convulsed, had to stop reading.

/"HERE'S WHAT SOME LIBERAL ARTS PROFESSOR THINKS about 'THE HOBBIT'...
 
2012-12-16 01:40:47 AM
 
2012-12-16 01:46:42 AM
It isn't.
 
2012-12-16 02:07:07 AM

urban.derelict: Because Catholics and the RCC take what they want, force you to convert at swordpoint (or kill you if you refused) and then call it their own?

[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 220x269][lh3.googleusercontent.com image 214x252][lh4.googleusercontent.com image 217x207]
/WAIT TIL I TELL YOU ABOUT EASTER...


Conversion didn't happen by the sword in Western Europe. It happened via missionaries. There's a great episode of Hardcore History about this. Basically, if the king converted, everyone else converted too. But there was a very weird amalgam in early Christianity between the old traditions and the new with depictions of a warrior Christ in place of similar warlike pagan gods. It also made sense to keep the holidays. Basing them on the solstice, like Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia/Sol Invictus makes sense in a society where there isn't much literacy or many calendars, but everyone can see the sky.

The metaphor of reaching the lowest point in the year and the days starting to lengthen is also to be noted. There are obvious fertility parallels in Easter around Spring with its idea of resurrection after death. There's also some scriptural basis in its link with the Jewish festival of Passover and the timing of Easter, but again it falls on the Sunday following the first full moon that falls on or after the spring equinox and when calendars were rare, this was probably the most reliable way that communities throughout Christendom were on the same page.

The transition between paganism and Christianity was a gradual one and not an overwhelming revolution, so older traditions evolved and adopted new meanings. A new religion probably will find it difficult to succeed if they get rid of the festivals and piss ups enjoyed by previous generations. The Puritans outlawed Christmas when they were in charge in Britain, and the monarchy was swiftly restored after Cromwell's death.
 
2012-12-16 02:18:19 AM
And Black Sabbath is Christian Rock. SFW.
 
2012-12-16 02:19:49 AM

Daikiki: graggor: this is final farewell to the tolkien univserse. peter jackson seems to have it right so far.

Just wait until he gets his hands on the Silmarilion. It'll probably end up being 16 four hour movies.


We should be so lucky. "The Children of Hurin" would be 16 four-hour movies all by itself.
 
2012-12-16 02:22:12 AM

Gyrfalcon: Daikiki: graggor: this is final farewell to the tolkien univserse. peter jackson seems to have it right so far.

Just wait until he gets his hands on the Silmarilion. It'll probably end up being 16 four hour movies.

We should be so lucky. "The Children of Hurin" would be 16 four-hour movies all by itself.



hyperbole aside. He has enough material to fill this time. the movie didnt feel long. it was paced well and it was exciting. I didnt ever feel like unecesarry info was being told.
 
2012-12-16 02:32:08 AM
Actually this article is kind of refreshing. I expect to hear Christians going on about how LOTR promotes an evil satanic message.
 
2012-12-16 02:54:48 AM
BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH WORKS OF FICTION.

/caps mean I'm yelling.
 
2012-12-16 02:55:16 AM
Christians should not believe in Hobbits and Elves.

They should only believe in Satan and Demons.

Get real!
 
2012-12-16 03:04:38 AM
Christians see Jesus in everything they like, unless they see Satan. Depends on how funny it makes their private areas feel.
 
2012-12-16 03:14:43 AM

Old enough to know better: Actually this article is kind of refreshing. I expect to hear Christians going on about how LOTR promotes an evil satanic message.


That's Harry Potter.
 
2012-12-16 03:32:07 AM

wraith95: Trade Secret: I'll join in with the group that says Tolkiens writing was boring. It was, I'm not saying that they weren't interesting just that they did little to hold my interest. And yes, I am a reader of real books

Agreed. Now don't get me wrong, his ideas and world development are amazing, and a big part of why I turned into such a huge nerd. That being said, it took me five attempts to completely read LotR because I would find myself skimming until something interesting was happening, and I gave up on the Simarillion fast.


Wait. Are you me?
 
2012-12-16 03:35:29 AM
i think the Christina nutfarks do a pretty bang on job promoting Satan themselves...

/Dante is laughing
//bigfoot is Jesus
 
2012-12-16 03:36:41 AM

Haliburton Cummings: i think the Christina nutfarks do a pretty bang on job promoting Satan themselves...

/Dante is laughing
//bigfoot is Jesus


spellcheck + VODAK = Christina...

I meant those arsehole Christians...

/sorry Christina, wherever you are
 
2012-12-16 04:37:18 AM

towatchoverme: MurphyMurphy: ftfa
"Brown, whose book, "The Christian World of the Hobbit," was published in October by Abingdon Press"

aaaaand way to go Fark

helping this douchenozzle plug his book.

Except that, you know, in his letters and such, Tolkien explicitly says that he draws from many sources, including Christian myths, making this a pretty legitimate scholarly approach to take. And stuff.


Yeah, I get that.

csb

My old man is a Christian and one of the few occasions I can remember him taking direct intervention in my education was when he found out I had read my 6th Hardy Boys book (that I was buying w/ my allowance). He took me to the mall (Waldenbooks I think it was) and said

"I'll make you a deal, you let me buy you one book and if you don't like it I'll buy you all the Hardy Boys books you want"

(I'm not sure if he knew this, but I did; there are hundreds of Hardy Boys books). He got me the lion, the witch and the wardrobe (cs lewis).

After that it was the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia.. after that he figured I had my reading chops and gave me The Hobbit and LoTR. I loved the Hobbit, it was another couple years until I got around to finishing Fellowship, (I was still pretty young) but when I did I burned through the whole trilogy, then read them all again.

He was always keen on discussing not the fantasy side of things but the themes and lessons (trying to rub off on me some interest in moral topics, I didn't have much interest in the Bible or church). What dad never got was, unlike CS Lewis creating direct allegory (spoiler alert: Aslan is Jesus) the LoTR was never that. It was, first and foremost, fantasy.


I didn't pick up on this aspect of it as a kid. Kids read books for the story, not to analyze their motivations and metaphors. As an adult reading them it's painfully obvious.

/csb


Tolkien does nothing more than admit to what is obviously true for all of us, when we write (or create anything) we all draw from ourselves and what we know and are surrounded by. He also drew from Norse mythology, does that mean The Hobbit is a book about Odin?

Of everything Tolkien ever said the biggest theme you can take away from his opinion on his own works is that they stand alone and hold their own meaning, not whatever people think he was trying to inject into the story.

Saying the Chronicles of Narnia is a Christian story is fine. It's common knowledge. It's fact. Write a book about it, sell some copies, etc... so are Stephen Lawhead's fantasy novels.

Saying the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings is a Christian story is just idiocy, wishful thinking, or in the case of this guy... shameless jab at getting Christians to buy books so he can profit off the new movies.

There is nothing legitimate or scholarly about it. In fact it's quite the opposite.
 
2012-12-16 05:03:12 AM

DanZero: So are we gonna get a review from our fine friends at CapAlert?



Wonder how this falls on the W I S D O M meters


How in the name of FSM have I not seen that site yet?

/bookmarked for HOURS of entertainment later
//"flash of implication of female upper nudity" indeed...
 
2012-12-16 05:10:31 AM
No.
 
2012-12-16 05:19:14 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: So was all the shiat that CS Lewis wrote. So what? The question is whether it's a good story or not.

And let's face it, Tolkein was a pretty boring storyteller.


Don't you mean to say "I think Tolkien was a pretty boring story teller"?

Because, let's face it, a lot of people disagree with you.
 
2012-12-16 05:34:32 AM

Fark You I'm Drunk: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 512x401]


Makes sense. I view the Hobbit as a continuation of the Christian themes in all of Peter Jackson's other films.


lh6.ggpht.com

gifsoup.com

Peter Jackson does have a rather refreshing take on Christian themes. Particularly on the virtues of kicking ass for the Lord.
 
2012-12-16 05:49:02 AM
"Jesus? Yes.... that is what they used top call me. Jesus of Nazareth."

"You can call me Jesus the White."
 
2012-12-16 05:51:16 AM

graggor: Gyrfalcon: Daikiki: graggor: this is final farewell to the tolkien univserse. peter jackson seems to have it right so far.

Just wait until he gets his hands on the Silmarilion. It'll probably end up being 16 four hour movies.

We should be so lucky. "The Children of Hurin" would be 16 four-hour movies all by itself.


hyperbole aside. He has enough material to fill this time. the movie didnt feel long. it was paced well and it was exciting. I didnt ever feel like unecesarry info was being told.


I agree, the movie was very well paced in my opinion. Scenes were given exactly the weight that they needed to have. I liked how it stayed fairly true to the book while also expanding upon it to give insight into characters and motivations.

And, yeah, if there are any more Tolkien adaptations, The Children of Hurin is perhaps the best candidate for it. It'd probably be depressing as hell, though.
 
2012-12-16 06:13:34 AM

ClintonKun: And, yeah, if there are any more Tolkien adaptations, The Children of Hurin is perhaps the best candidate for it. It'd probably be depressing as hell, though.


Mmmm, dragon destroyed cities and accidental incest..
 
2012-12-16 07:03:30 AM

Alphax: ClintonKun: And, yeah, if there are any more Tolkien adaptations, The Children of Hurin is perhaps the best candidate for it. It'd probably be depressing as hell, though.

Mmmm, dragon destroyed cities and accidental incest..


Accidental incest is the best
 
2012-12-16 07:57:48 AM

thisispete: urban.derelict: Because Catholics and the RCC take what they want, force you to convert at swordpoint (or kill you if you refused) and then call it their own?

[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 220x269][lh3.googleusercontent.com image 214x252][lh4.googleusercontent.com image 217x207]
/WAIT TIL I TELL YOU ABOUT EASTER...

Conversion didn't happen by the sword in Western Europe. It happened via missionaries. There's a great episode of Hardcore History about this. Basically, if the king converted, everyone else converted too. But there was a very weird amalgam in early Christianity between the old traditions and the new with depictions of a warrior Christ in place of similar warlike pagan gods. It also made sense to keep the holidays. Basing them on the solstice, like Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia/Sol Invictus makes sense in a society where there isn't much literacy or many calendars, but everyone can see the sky.

The metaphor of reaching the lowest point in the year and the days starting to lengthen is also to be noted. There are obvious fertility parallels in Easter around Spring with its idea of resurrection after death. There's also some scriptural basis in its link with the Jewish festival of Passover and the timing of Easter, but again it falls on the Sunday following the first full moon that falls on or after the spring equinox and when calendars were rare, this was probably the most reliable way that communities throughout Christendom were on the same page.

The transition between paganism and Christianity was a gradual one and not an overwhelming revolution, so older traditions evolved and adopted new meanings. A new religion probably will find it difficult to succeed if they get rid of the festivals and piss ups enjoyed by previous generations. The Puritans outlawed Christmas when they were in charge in Britain, and the monarchy was swiftly restored after Cromwell's death.


Easter is literally the name of a pagan fertility goddess. OEstre? The festival was literally her holy day. "Parallels" my ass; this is co-option. Then there are the early saints which, thanks to the Irish and their written records, we know were primarily local and minor pagan deities re-purposed as Christian figures. Christianity spread in Europe by basically becoming a very hypocritical version of the already existing pagan belief systems that insisted -"no really"- it was monotheistic while abandoning everything that made it that. Even the most central tenets of Christianity -like the three-in-one male god, and a perfect, timeless deity- were directly taken from the two major groups of early Greek converts; the Pythagoreans and the Platonics/Zeus-one-and-only cults. And in the case of the very abstract three-in-one god of the Pythagoreans, that itself is taken from even earlier pagan beliefs; either the three-in-one female deities which Indo-European religions all over are absolutely filled with, or the possible cthonic triune god of Hades-Pluton-Dionysus (and does it really need to be pointed out that Their wife, Persephone, is an eternally virginal goddess, or that of the three, only Pluton has a story suggesting conventional birth?).

As to violence, while it wasn't the only driver of conversion it was hardly absent; histories from the various conversion periods are filled with the trashing of pagan temples, the killing of pagan priests, the burning of pagan texts, and in central Europe, the chopping down of holy trees (the last one's even a major event in the Charlemagne epics). People didn't just shrug their shoulders and start calling themselves Christians when their local warlord declared himself so, and convincing them was rarely an entirely peaceably affair. Heck, in the British Isle just deciding what brand of Christianity would predominate led to bloodshed, a conflict that played a major role in creating a rivalry between the English and various Celtic thrones that would last for centuries. Then there are the "fairy tales" and their explanation of the "practical religion" of commoners which, while hardly evidence of anything directly, certainly suggest an animosity between the old and new in their structure and content. Why would Europeans from the conversion periods have felt the need to hide all those old idols we've found cosseted away over the decades if there was nothing to fear from showing them?
 
2012-12-16 08:59:07 AM
At the beginning, it is not clear why the reluctant Baggins has been tapped to help lead the Hobbits' grand adventure. Baggins "does not know his ability," Chance said, "but he knows he has the character to develop into the kind of hero who can rescue a civilization."


And that relates to Christ how? The thing with the Christ story that I remember is that he always knew he was the son of god.
 
2012-12-16 09:06:08 AM

Gyrfalcon: Yes, with all the Norse themes and Celtic imagery, it's easy to see the Christian basis in there.

....why do people keep trying?


There are many Christians who can't stand to see anything non-Christian being popular.
 
2012-12-16 09:14:18 AM
At the beginning, it is not clear why the reluctant Baggins has been tapped to help lead the Hobbits' grand adventure. Baggins "does not know his ability," Chance said, "but he knows he has the character to develop into the kind of hero who can rescue a civilization."

Bilbo only found the damned thing, that was his whole purpose. To hold onto it until Frodo got it and Gandalf knew more about it.

Tolkien loathed allegory, by the way.
 
2012-12-16 09:47:24 AM
If you're particularly nuts about this sort of thing, the Tolkien Professor is a podcast that may be worth a listen. Basically, it's a way the hell too in-depth analysis of everything Tolkien, any imagery, symbolism, etc. from this professor at Washington University. If you're bored or obsessive enough, it may be worth a listen. Link
 
2012-12-16 11:12:37 AM
Stone's "Wall Street" is a much more Christian film than "Hobbit." At least how Christianity is currently practiced.
 
2012-12-16 11:12:41 AM

Jake Havechek: At the beginning, it is not clear why the reluctant Baggins has been tapped to help lead the Hobbits' grand adventure. Baggins "does not know his ability," Chance said, "but he knows he has the character to develop into the kind of hero who can rescue a civilization."

Bilbo only found the damned thing, that was his whole purpose. To hold onto it until Frodo got it and Gandalf knew more about it.

Tolkien loathed allegory, by the way.


Actually you could argue the ring found him.
 
2012-12-16 11:12:50 AM
Tolkien was a devout Catholic, but wrote that his stories were not meant to be allegorical in any way. He proposed them as an imagined, legendary history for England.

That said, I think Tolkien was an amazing linguist (Inventing quenya and all that), and one of the best world builders, but his characters are boring. They're either evil or good, no in-between, and any member of the man race who wasn't white was evil; except for the Numenoreans, who were white people who became evil and...black.
 
2012-12-16 11:33:21 AM
Tolkien was a world builder more than anything.

He made up a bunch of shiat that many people enjoy and have fun with.

Wish people could treat the bible the same way but there isnt as much fun in it.
 
2012-12-16 12:22:47 PM
Headlines like this make me want to cut the cord to my cable modem. I think anything with "Christian" in it makes me physically ill.
 
2012-12-16 05:59:28 PM

Phil Moskowitz: Headlines like this make me want to cut the cord to my cable modem. I think anything with "Christian" in it makes me physically ill.


snarkerati.com
 
2012-12-16 07:45:05 PM

Jgok: DanZero: So are we gonna get a review from our fine friends at CapAlert?

Wonder how this falls on the W I S D O M meters

How in the name of FSM have I not seen that site yet?

/bookmarked for HOURS of entertainment later
//"flash of implication of female upper nudity" indeed...


That site is awesome. I love how they catalogue every tattoo, piercing and instance of kids being rude to their parents.

Be sure to check out their review of the South Park movie.

South Park is an incredibly dangerous movie for those who do not understand or are developing an understanding of the Gospel ....... INCREDIBLY dangerous!
 
2012-12-17 04:39:43 AM

towatchoverme: Phil Moskowitz: Headlines like this make me want to cut the cord to my cable modem. I think anything with "Christian" in it makes me physically ill.

[snarkerati.com image 500x405]


Well played.
 
2012-12-17 08:52:26 AM

Manfred J. Hattan: The figure who gives his life to defeat evil and allow man's salvation was Gollum. Just sayin', is all.


So you're saying that Gollum is an avatar of some diety?
 
2012-12-19 01:02:06 AM

Gyrfalcon: Yes, with all the Norse themes and Celtic imagery, it's easy to see the Christian basis in there.

....why do people keep trying?


Because they have little faith in the faith they are professing. They have to get their god's pawprints on every other mythology in the form of a "stealth allegory" in order to feel better about the fact that Christianity is a relative newcomer in world religions, and is clearly cobbled together with more retconning and thematic scrapbooking than a rack of current Marvel comics.

If you find a religion that doesn't really want to talk about itself, and whose adherents don't come to your door, want you to contribute to a collection plate or buy a magazine, investigate further. They might actually have something to offer, as manifested by offering nothing at the front end. Christians want to make more Christians, all the time. The doctrine of a duty to convert in order to assure salvation is a pyramid scheme Cheops wishes he'd thought of.
 
2012-12-19 01:03:58 AM

beantowndog: Bilbo fought a dragon, just like jesus.


And took a little naked guy's ring, without even a reacharound.

Damn you, Bilbo Christ.
 
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