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(Newser)   The morning of one school shooting, another may have been averted: Police arrested a teenager in northern Oklahoma yesterday for allegedly planning a Columbine-style attack on his high school   (newser.com) divider line 271
    More: Scary, Oklahoma, school shootings, Tulsa World, Sammie Chavez, Oklahoma yesterday, .22 Long Rifle, 2nd amendment, high schools  
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8613 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Dec 2012 at 11:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-15 08:44:59 PM  
farkin' A

/DNRTFA
 
2012-12-15 08:50:28 PM  
Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.
 
2012-12-15 09:09:37 PM  
fta: "researching pipe bombs"

now we need pipe control.
 
2012-12-15 09:21:39 PM  
When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?
 
2012-12-15 09:29:07 PM  
Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.
 
2012-12-15 09:36:53 PM  

Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Look in the mirror.

Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.
 
2012-12-15 09:39:06 PM  

Gulper Eel: Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Look in the mirror.

Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.


I have no problem not watching network or cable news in this country, because I haven't in years. It all sucks. It's either biased left, biased right, or incompetent.
 
2012-12-15 09:51:52 PM  

Gulper Eel: Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.


I've never understood that. What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it? Where is the payoff if you don't get to see the end results? Maybe I'm just not a criminally insane psychopath, so I am glad I can't understand it, but it's incredibly confusing to me.
 
2012-12-15 09:58:21 PM  

serpent_sky: I've never understood that. What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it? Where is the payoff if you don't get to see the end results? Maybe I'm just not a criminally insane psychopath, so I am glad I can't understand it, but it's incredibly confusing to me.


Simple Answer: Some people just want to see the world burn. They don't care if they're there to see the results of it
Complex Answer with much Psychology behind the short reply: Spree killers are out to punish the people they see as having wronged them. They do not typically stop until this is accomplished, they run out of ammo, or they are neutralized by another individual.
 
2012-12-15 09:59:47 PM  

serpent_sky: Gulper Eel: Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.

I've never understood that. What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it? Where is the payoff if you don't get to see the end results? Maybe I'm just not a criminally insane psychopath, so I am glad I can't understand it, but it's incredibly confusing to me.


Some people want to leave a legacy.
This is no different than a rich guy having his name put on a building that he donated as part of his will.
 
2012-12-15 10:02:45 PM  

Gulper Eel: Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Look in the mirror.

Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.


I really wish the media would start referring to these "people" with demeaning names: "the jerk who killed defenseless kids" (ok, that doesn't roll off the tongue).

I remember fark was doing this about one of the recent lunatics, but I don't think it caught on.
 
2012-12-15 10:03:03 PM  

serpent_sky: What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it?


That's a sane question. Killing a lot of children is not a sane idea. So while yo have a valid question, your thinking is mistaken. You're projecting sanity on looney tunes. It will not help you understand.

An example of a better kind of question for these situations is "How many kids does a shooter have to kill to save the world from the devil?" This is an insane question. The answer will probably not even be numeric, or grammatically correct, but it's more likely to be the basis of a killing spree than a sane idea. This is because sane people don't go on killing sprees.
 
2012-12-15 10:04:36 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: I remember fark was doing this about one of the recent lunatics, but I don't think it caught on.


Because they used a crappy nickname.

If they'd have sat down and used a catchy one, it would have caught on.
 
2012-12-15 10:10:50 PM  

doglover: That's a sane question. Killing a lot of children is not a sane idea. So while yo have a valid question, your thinking is mistaken. You're projecting sanity on looney tunes. It will not help you understand.


I don't think anyone can understand, which is the problem. Which is also why there is so much interest and talking about it - people want to understand... people want to try and make sense of how and why these things happen. Partly because they are so incredibly incomprehensible, and partly because it would help people to deal . I guess there aren't really any answers, though...
 
2012-12-15 10:14:20 PM  

doglover: serpent_sky: What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it?

That's a sane question. Killing a lot of children is not a sane idea. So while yo have a valid question, your thinking is mistaken. You're projecting sanity on looney tunes. It will not help you understand.

An example of a better kind of question for these situations is "How many kids does a shooter have to kill to save the world from the devil?" This is an insane question. The answer will probably not even be numeric, or grammatically correct, but it's more likely to be the basis of a killing spree than a sane idea. This is because sane people don't go on killing sprees.


Yeah, that is exactly right.
 
2012-12-15 10:30:15 PM  

serpent_sky: I guess there aren't really any answers, though...


There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.

I've been reading up on what Simon Baron-Cohen (yep, Borat's cousin) has written on the subject. Trouble is, it's the sort of work that doesn't lend itself well to politics or TV news yammerfests.
 
2012-12-15 10:34:51 PM  

serpent_sky: I guess there aren't really any answers, though...


Crazy people are crazy.
Media exposure is sexy.
Crazy people want sexy, do something crazy to get media exposure.
 
2012-12-15 10:41:34 PM  
Just for the record, Oklahoma allows open carry.
 
2012-12-15 10:56:47 PM  

Gulper Eel: serpent_sky: I guess there aren't really any answers, though...

There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.

I've been reading up on what Simon Baron-Cohen (yep, Borat's cousin) has written on the subject.


wut? the article you linked to was written by Clare Carlisle.
 
2012-12-15 10:57:27 PM  
Go OK!!
 
2012-12-15 11:18:17 PM  

doglover: tenpoundsofcheese: I remember fark was doing this about one of the recent lunatics, but I don't think it caught on.

Because they used a crappy nickname.

If they'd have sat down and used a catchy one, it would have caught on.


TOT BOMB.
 
2012-12-15 11:20:25 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.


Did they find a copy of "The Jackle" in hid DVD player?
 
2012-12-15 11:22:48 PM  
Apparently in Oklahoma they illicitly sneak god into their schools thereby avoiding school shootings.
 
2012-12-15 11:23:09 PM  
BronyMedic"Simple Answer: Some people just want to see the world burn."


Bruce Wayne: "So why steal (the precious stones)? "


Alfred Pennyworth: "Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. "


img198.imageshack.us

 
2012-12-15 11:24:55 PM  
The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"
 
2012-12-15 11:25:20 PM  

Gulper Eel: serpent_sky: I guess there aren't really any answers, though...

There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.

I've been reading up on what Simon Baron-Cohen (yep, Borat's cousin) has written on the subject. Trouble is, it's the sort of work that doesn't lend itself well to politics or TV news yammerfests.


The FBI\current psych theory say it's not about empathy--it's just a delusion issue. You can't work on it as an empathy problem, you have to look at it as a schizophrenia issue. Which can be screened for pretty well, actually.
 
2012-12-15 11:26:23 PM  
Draw. And. Quarter.

Seriously.
 
2012-12-15 11:27:44 PM  
You need practice to drink this.

img2.findthebest.com
 
2012-12-15 11:30:58 PM  
I find this SNL intro difficult to fap to.
 
2012-12-15 11:31:24 PM  

Gulper Eel: There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.


Because their amygdalae don't work. Duh. What to do about that is the hard part.
 
2012-12-15 11:32:16 PM  
What is his Fark ID
 
2012-12-15 11:34:18 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: fta: "researching pipe bombs"

now we need pipe control.


www.michigancriminaldefenselawyerblog.com


Not to worry, the Feds are way ahead of you.
 
2012-12-15 11:34:20 PM  

Begoggle: What is his Fark ID


It clearly wasnt StopArrestingMe
 
2012-12-15 11:37:00 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: fta: "researching pipe bombs"

now we need pipe control.


Pipes are only needed by licensed plumbers and the water department.
 
2012-12-15 11:38:26 PM  
The one thing that surprises me if that I don't here more out of the gun rights activists and organizations getting out in front of these issues. Is the reason for this is that guns are big business in the US, and there is just too much money being made by manufacturers and sellers to even develop more proactive policies towards gun ownership?
 
2012-12-15 11:38:54 PM  
I'm sure he was planning to launch the attack with kitchen knives and Louisville sluggers, since they're just as deadly as semi-automatic guns.

FTA: "Chavez was already practicing with a Colt .45"

I guess I stand corrected again. What a crazy coincidence that easily concealable firearms with 7+ round magazines that can be reloaded in seconds keep popping-up as the weapon of choice for mass-murderers. We should spend another 50 years studying this to see if we can figure out how these killers operate.
 
2012-12-15 11:38:58 PM  
That would have sucked. Two in one day.... But it's clearly a bigger problem than people realize now.
 
2012-12-15 11:39:17 PM  

Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Improved education and mental health care systems. A stronger societal focus on cultivating the mind and the ability to reason and think critically as well as a societal support system for those who have difficulty coping. I'm not saying that anti-intellectualism and extreme, irrational rhetoric are the causes of such incidents. However, I suspect that they are fertilizer which helps such seeds of violence grow unnoticed until the incidents themselves happen.

And, just like as in disease, this would not stop every possible occurrence, but it should reduce the spread. If you want a vaccine, then that is my suggestion.
 
2012-12-15 11:39:30 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.



"Cops don't count" as what?

Shooters, or civilians?
 
2012-12-15 11:42:23 PM  

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: That would have sucked. Two in one day.... But it's clearly a bigger problem than people realize now.



It's an authoritarian's dream come true, is what it is.
 
2012-12-15 11:44:23 PM  

doglover: tenpoundsofcheese: I remember fark was doing this about one of the recent lunatics, but I don't think it caught on.

Because they used a crappy nickname.

If they'd have sat down and used a catchy one, it would have caught on.



Why give them a name at all?

I`m pretty sure none of these idiots want to be remembered as just another number...
 
2012-12-15 11:45:18 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


It seems most of these shootings occur in "gun free zones" where, you guessed it, most people don't carry their guns into... Because it would not matter if you took some whacko out that was killing people, YOU broke the law and are now going to jail, and will never get to legally carry a gun anymore...

Damned if you do... Sort of thing...
 
2012-12-15 11:45:24 PM  
Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain.
 
2012-12-15 11:45:45 PM  

Amos Quito: It's an authoritarian's dream come true, is what it is.


Good God.

Would you rather be living in a cave and looking over your shoulder for the next club to come along and whack you? People are stupid. A civilized society requires rules and regulations.
 
2012-12-15 11:46:46 PM  
Woohoo Bartlesville-
Come for the school massacre, stay for Frank Lloyd Wright's only built skyscraper: 
cls.cdn-hotels.com
 
2012-12-15 11:48:16 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


a quick look at google.. i make no promises.

not a shooter... http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-s tabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

stopped, without shooting the scumbag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.

4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.

12/9/2007 - Matthew J. Murray entered the Youth With A Mission training center in Arvada, Colorado and killed 2 people, then went to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado killing 2 more. He was shot and injured by church member Jeanne Assam and commit suicide before police arrived.

4/22/2012 - Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170728/Two-die-bloody-gun-ba t tle-childrens-soccer-match-raising-death-toll-three.html


and lastly... Most all mass shootings in the USA have been stopped by armed civilians. It's just that many of the armed civilians have been Law Enforcement Officers. Please remember if you are not military you are a civilian, no matter what some Police think.
 
2012-12-15 11:48:30 PM  

styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"



Does anyone REGRET the Patriot Act? The TSA? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan???

No???

Then QUIT trying to inject your reason, foresight and rationality into my emotionally fired frenzy, dude!

You're TOTALLY harshing by buzz.
 
2012-12-15 11:49:01 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

 

www.troll.me
 
2012-12-15 11:49:34 PM  

TotallyHeadless: Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain. AN HERO


FTFY
 
2012-12-15 11:50:04 PM  

emersonbiggins: Woohoo Bartlesville-
Come for the school massacre, stay for Frank Lloyd Wright's only built skyscraper: 
[cls.cdn-hotels.com image 243x350]


That's not bad for a skyscraper. I wonder how the interior space works.
 
2012-12-15 11:50:10 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


static.guim.co.uk

What about Skittles? I think they are potentially dangerous.
 
2012-12-15 11:50:14 PM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Universal healthcare, including mental healthcare.
 
2012-12-15 11:51:01 PM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


To stop putting this crap on the news.

Really. I bet this "alleged" shooter had no intention of going through with it; but I will equally bet you dollars to donuts he has been coming in his pants nonstop since the cops took him seriously enough to arrest him for it.
 
2012-12-15 11:51:51 PM  
Two things you NEVER give crazy: a baby and a gun.
 
2012-12-15 11:52:33 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


The trolly square shooter was killed by an armed person in the mall at the time. Its also funny that he was middle eastern yelling allah when he was shot but the press never mentioned it. Just the witnesses mentioned it.

Just looked at story and the hero is an off duty officer that had his weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting
 
2012-12-15 11:52:56 PM  

emersonbiggins: Woohoo Bartlesville-
Come for the school massacre, stay for Frank Lloyd Wright's only built skyscraper: 
[cls.cdn-hotels.com image 243x350]


Actually, massacre averted. Turns out we're a little bit more aware on the whole guns-and-bombs plot type nutters here...what with the Murrah Building and all...
 
2012-12-15 11:54:20 PM  

TotallyHeadless: Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain.


A hero is in the eye of the beholder.

I saw a guy last weekend with a Heath Ledger Joker tattoo on his neck.

I know, only fun and games, no big deal, what's all the hubbub about.
 
2012-12-15 11:54:58 PM  
It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.
 
2012-12-15 11:56:12 PM  

wildcardjack: emersonbiggins: Woohoo Bartlesville-
Come for the school massacre, stay for Frank Lloyd Wright's only built skyscraper: 
[cls.cdn-hotels.com image 243x350]

That's not bad for a skyscraper. I wonder how the interior space works.


Great, if you're FLW. Not so great if you're a man over 5' 9", but typical of most of his work. Makes for a sharp hotel, though:

i.rentalo.com
 
2012-12-15 11:57:24 PM  

Baloo Uriza: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Universal healthcare, including mental healthcare.


Really?

Mental healthcare - here is a perscription for your mental health problems - WHAT? He killed twelve people? - Evidently he stopped taking his medication.

How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?
 
2012-12-15 11:57:39 PM  

Arcturus72: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

It seems most of these shootings occur in "gun free zones" where, you guessed it, most people don't carry their guns into... Because it would not matter if you took some whacko out that was killing people, YOU broke the law and are now going to jail, and will never get to legally carry a gun anymore...

Damned if you do... Sort of thing...


Fort Hood was a gun-free zone?
 
2012-12-15 11:57:43 PM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


I'd argue for quarantine
 
2012-12-15 11:58:30 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


Link
 
2012-12-15 11:58:38 PM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


Here ya go

http://www.break.com/index/71-year-old-man-shoots-cafe-robbers-234932 8
 
2012-12-15 11:58:47 PM  

rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Like we do illegal drugs.........yeah, that will work
 
2012-12-15 11:58:47 PM  

graeylin: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

a quick look at google.. i make no promises.


Thanks. I was actually looking for an honest answer and not trolling. I figured someone would have already compiled a list to back up the "If they'd been armed this wouldn't have happened" retorts. 

And I should have expected the hairsplitting on the cop/civilian thing, even though I think it was pretty clear what I meant.
 
2012-12-15 11:59:54 PM  
Arming citizens is the dumbest idea anyone ever had. People are too f*cking dumb to handle that kind of power and responsibility.
 
2012-12-16 12:02:11 AM  

snowshovel: Arcturus72: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

It seems most of these shootings occur in "gun free zones" where, you guessed it, most people don't carry their guns into... Because it would not matter if you took some whacko out that was killing people, YOU broke the law and are now going to jail, and will never get to legally carry a gun anymore...

Damned if you do... Sort of thing...

Fort Hood was a gun-free zone?


Oh please. You think a bunch of government employees would know how to defend themselves?
 
2012-12-16 12:02:42 AM  
We need a final solution for America's gun problem.

It's not just mass murders or murders either...there are tens of thousands of suicides and accidental shooting deaths going back years as well (that other advanced countries do not suffer).

I'm all for culling the herd, especially dumb gun owners who accidentally shoot their kid mistaking him as a burger, etc., et al, but the insanity has to stop some time.
 
2012-12-16 12:02:42 AM  

rappy: Arming citizens is the dumbest idea anyone ever had. People are too f*cking dumb to handle that kind of power and responsibility.


Seriously. Have any of you seen how people drive? I don't want those people behind a wheel let alone behind a trigger.
 
2012-12-16 12:03:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.


someone wasn't hugged enough as a child

/nonstory
 
2012-12-16 12:04:42 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Perhaps, on some level, they're seeking a rush/chemical change in the brain that is achieved, or at least they think will be achieved, by going through with a shooting.
 
2012-12-16 12:05:35 AM  

Primum: tens of thousands of suicides and accidental shooting deaths going back years as well (that other advanced countries do not suffer)


Japan and Scandinavian countries generally have less access to firearms and more gun control.

Guess how suicide rates compare?
 
2012-12-16 12:05:59 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Higher taxes on the wealthy to pay for health care? Especially mental health care...

Seriously though, a society based upon competition, where the rules are truly balanced towards those with resources
will create a never ending stream of similar monsters who feel they can't compete

4.bp.blogspot.com

Hot as a spent shell casing
 
2012-12-16 12:06:06 AM  
Quick! To the Huckabee phone! We need more Jesus in Oklahoma!
 
2012-12-16 12:06:38 AM  

TotallyHeadless: Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain.


That's shallow, short sighted and impulsive thinking. But then look at the people who shoot up other people. They are shallow, short sighted and impulsive thinking.
 
2012-12-16 12:06:52 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?


You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.
 
2012-12-16 12:07:06 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: It's an authoritarian's dream come true, is what it is.

Good God.

Would you rather be living in a cave and looking over your shoulder for the next club to come along and whack you? People are stupid. A civilized society requires rules and regulations.



I'm sure that you're perfectly comfortable in surrendering all ability to resist to this guy

upload.wikimedia.org

But how do you feel about this guy

upload.wikimedia.org

Or this guy

upload.wikimedia.org

Or this guy

upload.wikimedia.org

Or this guy

upload.wikimedia.org

And the inevitable Godwin

upload.wikimedia.org

Ceding to authority may sound like a good idea, but times change, rulers change, and authoritarianism ALWAYS leads to tyranny.

Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.
 
2012-12-16 12:08:51 AM  

Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.


End the war on drugs.

There is nothing more fascist about America than the war on drugs
 
2012-12-16 12:09:14 AM  

Primum: I'm all for culling the herd, especially dumb gun owners who accidentally shoot their kid mistaking him as a burger, etc.


I laughed. But then I remembered what a lot of American kids look like these days.
 
2012-12-16 12:10:19 AM  

fusillade762: graeylin: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

a quick look at google.. i make no promises.

Thanks. I was actually looking for an honest answer and not trolling. I figured someone would have already compiled a list to back up the "If they'd been armed this wouldn't have happened" retorts. 

And I should have expected the hairsplitting on the cop/civilian thing, even though I think it was pretty clear what I meant.


Hey that was just the only one I could think of off the top of my head.
 
2012-12-16 12:10:45 AM  

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.


When you say glorify gun violence are you talking about Quentin Tarantino movies, Call of Duty video games, New York Knick games, or the second amendment?
 
2012-12-16 12:12:31 AM  

Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.


What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.
 
2012-12-16 12:13:16 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.

When you say glorify gun violence are you talking about Quentin Tarantino movies, Call of Duty video games, New York Knick games, or the second amendment?


All of the above.
 
2012-12-16 12:14:06 AM  

Amos Quito: whatshisname: Amos Quito: It's an authoritarian's dream come true, is what it is.

Good God.

Would you rather be living in a cave and looking over your shoulder for the next club to come along and whack you? People are stupid. A civilized society requires rules and regulations.


I'm sure that you're perfectly comfortable in surrendering all ability to resist to this guy

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x299]

But how do you feel about this guy

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x293]

Or this guy

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x275]

Or this guy

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x315]

Or this guy

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x299]

And the inevitable Godwin

[upload.wikimedia.org image 230x364]

Ceding to authority may sound like a good idea, but times change, rulers change, and authoritarianism ALWAYS leads to tyranny.

Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.


I'm not arguing for or against handgun restrictions in this post. (Which is, I suspect, the type of gun restrictions people will ask for in the wake of this)

but I wish to point out that if we were resisting the government, using FARKING HANDGUNS to do it, semi-automatic or not, would be, um.

Very short lived. Also INCREDIBLY STUPID.
 
2012-12-16 12:14:58 AM  

rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.



Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.
 
2012-12-16 12:16:04 AM  

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.

When you say glorify gun violence are you talking about Quentin Tarantino movies, Call of Duty video games, New York Knick games, or the second amendment?

All of the above.


So ban everything - make us dress in uniform, share the harvest evenly, and march in lockstep.

Usually doesn't work.
 
2012-12-16 12:16:27 AM  

snowshovel: Fort Hood was a gun-free zone?


Mostly, yes.
Or did you think that every soldier walks around with a loaded weapon at all times?
 
2012-12-16 12:17:27 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: So ban everything - make us dress in uniform, share the harvest evenly, and march in lockstep.


Yeah, that's exactly what I said.
 
2012-12-16 12:17:30 AM  

Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.


Don't laugh...if your civilian law enforcement is less armed, the paranoia of the cowardly right will become lessened
 
2012-12-16 12:17:55 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.


When you say it's 'vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature' you sound rather racist.
 
2012-12-16 12:18:06 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.

When you say glorify gun violence are you talking about Quentin Tarantino movies, Call of Duty video games, New York Knick games, or the second amendment?

All of the above.

So ban everything - make us dress in uniform, share the harvest evenly, and march in lockstep.

Usually doesn't work.


pauliecannoli.files.wordpress.com

You doubt the power of fear mongering and groupthink.
 
2012-12-16 12:23:05 AM  
I think its kind of simple. As a gun owner and collector my guns are secure. They are not loaded Ammo is not stored with them. They are locked in a safe in a locked closet. Not put in a nightstand drawer loaded. Cocked and locked. We have a 2nd amendment right to own guns. That does not mean everyone should have them.
If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive. There is something that all thees shooters have in common. There crazy. Maybe if mommy and daddy gave a crap and the schools where not afraid to label kids. They might get help. Stereotypes exists for a reason. They are based in truth. Goth kids are usually screwed up. Jocks are ass holes. Cheerleaders ass holes...Goes on and on.
 
2012-12-16 12:23:58 AM  
"Obama Ready for 'Meaningful Action' on Gun Control" Really because yeasterday in China a crazed man went into a school and slashed over 20 children with a knife...seems our Governments God control on everything has lead this Country into this problem!
 
2012-12-16 12:24:55 AM  

Mentat: Just for the record, Oklahoma allows open carry.


Which is why I think this kid was just screaming for attention. We need to figure out what is wrong with these people, so we can pick out the crasy from the big mouth punks.
 
2012-12-16 12:25:33 AM  
What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.
 
2012-12-16 12:25:56 AM  

0Icky0: Quick! To the Huckabee phone! We need more Jesus in Oklahoma!


Huckabee's Jesus is like a vampire: he must be invited in first. Once he's in, he's all powerful. Or something.
 
2012-12-16 12:26:30 AM  
snowshovel: Fort Hood was a gun-free zone?

Yes, pretty much. Just like most places of normal business in the US, the only guns allowed on base were those of security, and those on the ranges. Personal weapons were locked up by the provost marshall, and not allowed to be carried by base personnel.
 
2012-12-16 12:26:39 AM  
ok a knife. cant find the link to the story
 
2012-12-16 12:26:47 AM  

GungFu: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

[static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

What about Skittles? I think they are potentially dangerous.


static.nfl.com
And how!
 
2012-12-16 12:27:02 AM  

Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.


If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.
 
2012-12-16 12:27:24 AM  

styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"


The only law that has a chance in he'll of fixing this is one that implements free mental health services nationwide.
 
2012-12-16 12:28:13 AM  

mamoru: Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Improved education and mental health care systems. A stronger societal focus on cultivating the mind and the ability to reason and think critically as well as a societal support system for those who have difficulty coping. I'm not saying that anti-intellectualism and extreme, irrational rhetoric are the causes of such incidents. However, I suspect that they are fertilizer which helps such seeds of violence grow unnoticed until the incidents themselves happen.

And, just like as in disease, this would not stop every possible occurrence, but it should reduce the spread. If you want a vaccine, then that is my suggestion.


I agree with this. While having easy access to guns does not help, but the problem here is one of psychology.

America has a pisspoor idea on psychological help, especially since a lot of our value comes from work that, thanks to the economy, is now easily replaced. We're a nation of people who work hard and play little and see our bodies as something to exhaust either through poor diet or a real lack of medical care. In a weird way, the way we set up our culture is that we are the ultimate disposable commodity to be used, abused, and buried after we finally use up our use as workers. This clashes with our mentality as 'individuals' and 'pioneers' who are supposed to be self-reliant 100% of the time regardless of the consequences, yet supposed to be constantly ambitious enough to live up to a nuclear family mentality regardless of what we really want.

So, in a nutshell, we're self-destructive physically and alienated emotionally/mentally. Is it a farking wonder why some of us snap like this? The sad truth isn't that the American Way of Life (Working yourself to death and living a pre-packaged existence) isn't dying, its that it isn't dying fast enough. We only get one shot at this world, and being a human machine is no way to go about it. Most of us seek solace in addictions. And some of us, sadly, decide to go out in a blaze of violence and death. We can talk about guns all we want and there is a place for that, but the one thing we should be talking about is how we treat ourselves and others. We need free healthcare for everybody. We need psychological care without the stigma. We need to start taking care of ourselves instead of spending our bodies like some kind of bizarre currency. And we need, most of all, to start thinking about others besides ourselves because when someone snaps like this, they can hurt a lot of people. And taking care of others helps prevent or lessen the damage of instances like we saw on Friday.
 
2012-12-16 12:29:04 AM  

X-boxershorts: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

End the war on drugs.

There is nothing more fascist about America than the war on drugs



Agreed.


codinghorror.typepad.com

But the "day ain't over yet"
 
2012-12-16 12:29:14 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.

When you say it's 'vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature' you sound rather racist.


Please explain how you jumped to that conclusion, because it in itself sounds very racist.
 
2012-12-16 12:31:18 AM  

rappy: Arming citizens is the dumbest idea anyone ever had. People are too f*cking dumb to handle that kind of power and responsibility.


I agree. As soon as I get power, first thing to go is people's weapons. Then, I'mma start takin' their stuff. Jewelry, money, kids, it don't matter. What the king wants, the king shall have.
 
2012-12-16 12:31:28 AM  

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.

When you say it's 'vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature' you sound rather racist.

Please explain how you jumped to that conclusion, because it in itself sounds very racist.


Bigoted not raciest.
 
2012-12-16 12:34:31 AM  

Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.


The correct word you're looking for is "Eutopia." You literally said "No place" is ours.
 
2012-12-16 12:36:03 AM  

kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story


You mean this one?

The one where 22 people were injured and not killed?
 
2012-12-16 12:37:24 AM  
The Sandy Hook shooter broke multiple gun laws. It is unclear how simply adding more thereby making it "double secret illegal" will help. Even more so shooters proclivity to escape the consequences or their actions by eating a bullet. Of course modification of gun legislation should not be off the table. Changes should be considered carefully and rationally, applied and measured and not just adopted in a knee jerk convulsion so common in American politics.

More aggressive funding for mental health care and more proactive treatment for disturbed individuals has been problematic for years and is pretty much a no-brainer at this point. This is most likely the biggest return on investment.

Unfortunately when all is said and done nothing will prevent a next tragedy. A suitably motivated individual, sane or not, willing to sacrifice his life to commit a monstrous act will ultimately find a way. Regulating pipes, household chemicals and sharp objects is simply not practical. The sad truth is that despite our best efforts to make the system monster proof the world will ultimately build a better monster.
 
2012-12-16 12:37:41 AM  
Yes thank you. I was mistaken but I stand by my post.

Think of the children.
 
2012-12-16 12:38:22 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.


If you want to have a real conversation, you need to stop with the insults, it's not helping and it's going to make more people tune you out.


styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"


I kind of agree with this and Amos Quito a bit further up, but I think we're going to end up crapping a short-sighted law out as fast as we can to try get some facade of safety, a bandage over a bullet wound.
 
2012-12-16 12:39:25 AM  

kombi: I think its kind of simple. As a gun owner and collector my guns are secure. They are not loaded Ammo is not stored with them. They are locked in a safe in a locked closet. Not put in a nightstand drawer loaded. Cocked and locked. We have a 2nd amendment right to own guns. That does not mean everyone should have them.
If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive. There is something that all thees shooters have in common. There crazy. Maybe if mommy and daddy gave a crap and the schools where not afraid to label kids. They might get help. Stereotypes exists for a reason. They are based in truth. Goth kids are usually screwed up. Jocks are ass holes. Cheerleaders ass holes...Goes on and on.


I confess I am very curious as to why and how the mother got an AR-15 equivalent.
 
2012-12-16 12:40:03 AM  

kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story


22 injured by a knife-wielding madman. No 13 killed. Nice try tho.
 
2012-12-16 12:40:22 AM  

Sirveaux: kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story

You mean this one?

The one where 22 people were injured and not killed?


Because it's A-OK to slash kids with a knife. No permanent physical or mental damage could possibly be inflicted by such an act.

Your argument holds as much water as a pitcher made of chicken wire.
 
2012-12-16 12:40:30 AM  

rappy: Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.

If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.


Yes, because the "war on drugs" has worked out so well.....
 
2012-12-16 12:40:58 AM  

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.

When you say it's 'vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature' you sound rather racist.

Please explain how you jumped to that conclusion, because it in itself sounds very racist.


President Obama was asked a question by ABC in February of 2011 about education reform and the reporter noted an article by Scientific America showing that Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas high school seniors showed the lowest IQs of any states in the union.

He replied that there was a lot of factors that contributed to that figure including financial and parental issues amongst African American families that were not necessarily their fault and, that anyone who tried to prove otherwise, were taking advantage of racial prejudice.

Congratulations.
 
2012-12-16 12:41:45 AM  
If we want security, the options are:
- get rid of all weapons that have no purpose but murder so the gun nuts can't exercise their fantasies OR
- a complete and absolute loss of privacy and freedoms

If those are the choices then fark gun nuts.

Guns would not scare me so much if not for the fact that every single person I have ever met who wants an assault rifle is EXACTLY the kind of person who I think would go on a killing spree.
 
2012-12-16 12:41:53 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: kombi: I think its kind of simple. As a gun owner and collector my guns are secure. They are not loaded Ammo is not stored with them. They are locked in a safe in a locked closet. Not put in a nightstand drawer loaded. Cocked and locked. We have a 2nd amendment right to own guns. That does not mean everyone should have them.
If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive. There is something that all thees shooters have in common. There crazy. Maybe if mommy and daddy gave a crap and the schools where not afraid to label kids. They might get help. Stereotypes exists for a reason. They are based in truth. Goth kids are usually screwed up. Jocks are ass holes. Cheerleaders ass holes...Goes on and on.

I confess I am very curious as to why and how the mother got an AR-15 equivalent.


I have two. There fun to shoot. I think its funny that thats the gun we are hearing about when no one was shot with that gun. It was in the car.

As I like to say Im your best defense when we are attacked by the tin can army.
 
2012-12-16 12:43:08 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.

When you say it's 'vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature' you sound rather racist.


But you are the one connecting the dots.
 
2012-12-16 12:45:46 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: He replied that there was a lot of factors that contributed to that figure including financial and parental issues amongst African American families that were not necessarily their fault and, that anyone who tried to prove otherwise, were taking advantage of racial prejudice.

Congratulations.



I was not aware of those statistics, but maybe you can look further that that one study? In my experience there is no racial divide for stupidity.
 
2012-12-16 12:46:23 AM  

doglover: rappy: Arming citizens is the dumbest idea anyone ever had. People are too f*cking dumb to handle that kind of power and responsibility.

I agree. As soon as I get power, first thing to go is people's weapons. Then, I'mma start takin' their stuff. Jewelry, money, kids, it don't matter. What the king wants, the king shall have.


I want the dogs and the cars.
 
2012-12-16 12:47:20 AM  
Does not matter

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: He replied that there was a lot of factors that contributed to that figure including financial and parental issues amongst African American families that were not necessarily their fault and, that anyone who tried to prove otherwise, were taking advantage of racial prejudice.

Congratulations.


I was not aware of those statistics, but maybe you can look further that that one study? In my experience there is no racial divide for stupidity.


Does not matter what color you are. Stupid is as stupid does.
 
2012-12-16 12:47:21 AM  

KimNorth: "Obama Ready for 'Meaningful Action' on Gun Control" Really because yeasterday in China a crazed man went into a school and slashed over 20 children with a knife...seems our Governments God control on everything has lead this Country into this problem!


How many of those children died?

you mad straw dude?
 
2012-12-16 12:47:51 AM  

Digital Communist: If we want security, the options are:
- get rid of all weapons that have no purpose but murder so the gun nuts can't exercise their fantasies OR
- a complete and absolute loss of privacy and freedoms

If those are the choices then fark gun nuts.

Guns would not scare me so much if not for the fact that every single person I have ever met who wants an assault rifle is EXACTLY the kind of person who I think would go on a killing spree.


So change the Constitution because everybody you know is a farking douchebag?

Really, every single person you know?

How much of an assbaby are you that everybody you know wants to kill people?
 
2012-12-16 12:48:56 AM  

Sirveaux: kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story

You mean this one?

The one where 22 people were injured and not killed?


I understand the sentiment in not wanting all those kids to be dead and all, but everytime somebody calls back to the Chinese story, I'm think people are not really looking at the story. They're not looking at the fact that a man went into a school, and without provocation or warning, just went berserk and attacked a bunch of kids. Right now, it's all "NO GUNS = NO DEATHS!!1!" You want your kids being stabbed? Do you think that those parents feel safe now?
 
2012-12-16 12:49:35 AM  

TotallyHeadless: Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain.


This, sadly.
 
2012-12-16 12:50:52 AM  

Digital Communist: If we want security, the options are:
- get rid of all weapons that have no purpose but murder so the gun nuts can't exercise their fantasies OR
- a complete and absolute loss of privacy and freedoms

If those are the choices then fark gun nuts.

Guns would not scare me so much if not for the fact that every single person I have ever met who wants an assault rifle is EXACTLY the kind of person who I think would go on a killing spree.


This was sarcasm, right? Right?
 
2012-12-16 12:53:32 AM  

oMaJoJ: Sirveaux: kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story

You mean this one?

The one where 22 people were injured and not killed?

I understand the sentiment in not wanting all those kids to be dead and all, but everytime somebody calls back to the Chinese story, I'm think people are not really looking at the story. They're not looking at the fact that a man went into a school, and without provocation or warning, just went berserk and attacked a bunch of kids. Right now, it's all "NO GUNS = NO DEATHS!!1!" You want your kids being stabbed? Do you think that those parents feel safe now?


I really dont think there is muck of a solution. Just watch your kids and talk to them. Thats all we can really do. I guess the only way to keep them safe is outlaw men/boys 12 to 30.
 
2012-12-16 12:54:38 AM  

X-boxershorts: KimNorth: "Obama Ready for 'Meaningful Action' on Gun Control" Really because yeasterday in China a crazed man went into a school and slashed over 20 children with a knife...seems our Governments God control on everything has lead this Country into this problem!

How many of those children died?

you mad straw dude?


Really?? I bet it takes a brick on the head for you to get a point, you mad cow person....( *

Sliced, diced, whatever crazy will find a way.
 
2012-12-16 12:54:47 AM  

Guntram Shatterhand:
I agree with this. While having easy access to guns does not help, but the problem here is one of psychology
America has a pisspoor idea on psychological help, especially since a lot of our value comes from work that, thanks to the economy, is now easily replaced. We're a nation of people who work hard and play little and see our bodies as something to exhaust either through poor diet or a real lack of medical care. In a weird way, the way we set up our culture is that we are the ultimate disposable commodity to be used, abused, and buried after we finally use up our use as workers. This clashes with our mentality as 'individuals' and 'pioneers' who are supposed to be self-reliant 100% of the time regardless of the consequences, yet supposed to be constantly ambitious enough to live up to a nuclear family mentality regardless of what we really want.
So, in a nutshell, we're self-destructive physically and alienated emotionally/mentally. Is it a farking wonder why some of us snap like this? The sad truth isn't that the American Way of Life (Working yourself to death and living a pre-packaged existence) isn't dying, its that it isn't dying fast enough. We only get one shot at this world, and being a human machine is no way to go about it. Most of us seek solace in addictions. And some ...


I must "this" this.

It's not guns, it's US. All of us, not just those few rare ones who actually kill.
 
2012-12-16 12:54:49 AM  

X-boxershorts: Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.

Don't laugh...if your civilian law enforcement is less armed, the paranoia of the cowardly right will become lessened



And all indications are that "your civilian law enforcement" is becoming "less armed", right?

LOL!

What is the definition of "government"?

And what do those who mean to "govern" ultimately intend to do? If not in this generation, in the next?

Any voice of dissent is meaningless unless it is backed by the ability to resist - at some level.

Contrary to carefully contrived popular belief, the Second Amendment was NOT intended to give the government access to arms, but to give PEOPLE the right and ability to resist the tyranny into which ALL governments eventually devolve.

It is the nature of the beast.

Keep the beast leashed.
 
2012-12-16 12:55:36 AM  

X-boxershorts: KimNorth: "Obama Ready for 'Meaningful Action' on Gun Control" Really because yeasterday in China a crazed man went into a school and slashed over 20 children with a knife...seems our Governments God control on everything has lead this Country into this problem!

How many of those children died?

you mad straw dude?


Howabout the 2008 Osaka kitchen knife school killings? Does eight dead children suit your fancy better than 22 wounded?

Wiki
 
2012-12-16 12:58:36 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.


That's weird... Wouldn't a platform of some sort be stationary?
Someone correct me on this.
 
2012-12-16 12:59:38 AM  

slashmonkey: The Sandy Hook shooter broke multiple gun laws. It is unclear how simply adding more thereby making it "double secret illegal" will help. Even more so shooters proclivity to escape the consequences or their actions by eating a bullet. Of course modification of gun legislation should not be off the table. Changes should be considered carefully and rationally, applied and measured and not just adopted in a knee jerk convulsion so common in American politics.

More aggressive funding for mental health care and more proactive treatment for disturbed individuals has been problematic for years and is pretty much a no-brainer at this point. This is most likely the biggest return on investment.

Unfortunately when all is said and done nothing will prevent a next tragedy. A suitably motivated individual, sane or not, willing to sacrifice his life to commit a monstrous act will ultimately find a way. Regulating pipes, household chemicals and sharp objects is simply not practical. The sad truth is that despite our best efforts to make the system monster proof the world will ultimately build a better monster.


And this is another example of why I have you farkied as "One of very few who stay rational"
 
2012-12-16 01:02:34 AM  

Amos Quito: And what do those who mean to "govern" ultimately intend to do? If not in this generation, in the next?


They mean to become America's Royalty. When only the wealthy have any meaningful sway in government, the delineation becomes more and more drastic. They shall govern what the commoners can and can not do, while abiding by a different set of rules and regulations, with the ability to bend them to their will.

The question in my mind is, when comes the breaking point? What level of extremism will it take for people to finally stop tolerating the subjugation?
 
2012-12-16 01:03:05 AM  
Well crap,guess I'll go ahead and say it.
Not long after 9-11 I said to myself If I were a terrorist and really wanted to scare the hell out of Americans,I'd hit the schools.Hit them where they live,hit their precious kiddies.Forget the planes,trains,and big buildings.Kick them in the guts with dead children.
Now,in retrospect,I think that if I were a government wanting to disarm my people,I would do the same damn thing.
You may now label me as you wish,don't really care.
 
2012-12-16 01:04:39 AM  
I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.
 
2012-12-16 01:04:39 AM  

Pichu0102: AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.

That's weird... Wouldn't a platform of some sort be stationary?
Someone correct me on this.


Sounds to me like he was trying to find a .22 conversion kit, to be attached to a "machine gun" lower receiver.

Link
 
2012-12-16 01:05:43 AM  

Pichu0102: AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.

That's weird... Wouldn't a platform of some sort be stationary?
Someone correct me on this.


Could be mounted on a hill overlooking the school. Could be mounted on his friends Mom's PT Cruiser.
 
2012-12-16 01:05:56 AM  

Martin Silenus: Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.

The correct word you're looking for is "Eutopia." You literally said "No place" is ours.



A thousand pardons!

I humbly bow before your superior mastery of the Enrish Ranguage, sir!


/That being said, you rather made my point, didn't you?
 
2012-12-16 01:06:22 AM  

croesius: Pichu0102: AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.

That's weird... Wouldn't a platform of some sort be stationary?
Someone correct me on this.

Sounds to me like he was trying to find a .22 conversion kit, to be attached to a "machine gun" lower receiver.

Link


A .22 conversion kit to convert an ar15 .223 style gun to a 22.
 
2012-12-16 01:07:39 AM  

rappy: If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.


what? I deserve to be in prison because I got tired of being f*cking mugged and bought myself a hand gun to protect myself and my home?
 
2012-12-16 01:10:07 AM  

rappy: Amos Quito: rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


Cool.

We swap out the :WAR ON DRUGS for the WAR ON GUNS.

Keeps the cops happy, the prisons full of people who shouldn't be there, and the public laps it up like regurgitated dog food.

Utopia is ours.

If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.



Deserve to be where?

Utopia? (ACK - er, axcuse mee "Eutopia"?


/I'm with Todd Rundgren
 
2012-12-16 01:10:18 AM  

KimNorth: X-boxershorts: KimNorth: "Obama Ready for 'Meaningful Action' on Gun Control" Really because yeasterday in China a crazed man went into a school and slashed over 20 children with a knife...seems our Governments God control on everything has lead this Country into this problem!

How many of those children died?

you mad straw dude?

Really?? I bet it takes a brick on the head for you to get a point, you mad cow person....( *

Sliced, diced, whatever crazy will find a way.


Not dead is not dead, dickhead
 
2012-12-16 01:10:30 AM  
All I know is that it's my God given right as an American to teach my emotionally disturbed, autistic son how to shoot, reload and shoot again, and to surround him with various types and makes of guns, all the while fetishizing these same guns.

/America, fark yeah!
 
2012-12-16 01:11:25 AM  

kombi: croesius: Pichu0102: AverageAmericanGuy: Chavez was ...using school computers to research a .22-caliber rifle mounted on a machine gun platform.

A real criminal genius we're dealing with here.

That's weird... Wouldn't a platform of some sort be stationary?
Someone correct me on this.

Sounds to me like he was trying to find a .22 conversion kit, to be attached to a "machine gun" lower receiver.

Link

A .22 conversion kit to convert an ar15 .223 style gun to a 22.


Yeah, but it makes such better sensationalism if they call it a machine gun.
 
2012-12-16 01:12:04 AM  

fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.


Here ya go, no hair splitting, he's an honest to god civilian with a concealed carry license who likely saved a lot of peoples lives by showing the shooter he wasn't the only person armed at the Clackamas Mall Link
 
2012-12-16 01:14:18 AM  

Okie_Gunslinger: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

Here ya go, no hair splitting, he's an honest to god civilian with a concealed carry license who likely saved a lot of peoples lives by showing the shooter he wasn't the only person armed at the Clackamas Mall Link


You honestly want your kids kindergarten school armed?
 
2012-12-16 01:15:05 AM  

WhippingBoy: All I know is that it's my God given right as an American to teach my emotionally disturbed, autistic son how to shoot, reload and shoot again, and to surround him with various types and makes of guns, all the while fetishizing these same guns.

/America, fark yeah!

Thats my point. Im a mechanic. You dont know how many times I have gotten in a car to move or repair them and there are guns crammed between the seats or ammo rolling around on the floor in the cup holders and the door panels. And then a car seat in the back. People owning a gun is a right but for god sakes lock them up and be responsible.
 
2012-12-16 01:19:27 AM  
I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Asperger kids are PURE EVIL.

I'm moving my family to Nova Scotia away from these immunized freaks of nature.
 
2012-12-16 01:20:00 AM  

kombi: WhippingBoy: All I know is that it's my God given right as an American to teach my emotionally disturbed, autistic son how to shoot, reload and shoot again, and to surround him with various types and makes of guns, all the while fetishizing these same guns.

/America, fark yeah!
Thats my point. Im a mechanic. You dont know how many times I have gotten in a car to move or repair them and there are guns crammed between the seats or ammo rolling around on the floor in the cup holders and the door panels. And then a car seat in the back. People owning a gun is a right but for god sakes lock them up and be responsible.


But if I lock them up, how can I display them to all and sundry?

The best thing is that the mini-mall where I buy my ammunition also has a pharmacy where I get my son's anti-psychotic prescriptions filled. Talk about your one stop shopping!
 
2012-12-16 01:20:03 AM  

Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.


I bet you as you write this full of yourself to have the "rights" of lawful Americans taken away for the children of course, you have also posted for the right of millions to kill their little babies as after all it's their "right".

You know what people like you are called???
 
2012-12-16 01:21:47 AM  

mekki: TotallyHeadless: Young men have no avenues to become heros anymore. Unless you are popular, athletic, or incredibly lucky, there is not much young men can aspire to.

So if you can't become a hero, what can you do?

Become a villain.

That's shallow, short sighted and impulsive thinking. But then look at the people who shoot up other people. They are shallow, short sighted and impulsive thinking.


This is what needs to be addressed. Find ways of projecting positive solutions to perceived problems and these impulsive people may not think that the only solution is to shoot their way out.
 
2012-12-16 01:23:14 AM  
Getting rid of guns won't fix anything. You need to get rid of the attitudes towards guns that so many people in your country have.

And good luck with that: you can't fix stupid.
 
2012-12-16 01:23:44 AM  

croesius: Amos Quito: And what do those who mean to "govern" ultimately intend to do? If not in this generation, in the next?

They mean to become America's Royalty. When only the wealthy have any meaningful sway in government, the delineation becomes more and more drastic. They shall govern what the commoners can and can not do, while abiding by a different set of rules and regulations, with the ability to bend them to their will.

The question in my mind is, when comes the breaking point? What level of extremism will it take for people to finally stop tolerating the subjugation?



Once the populace has been neutered by being disarmed, what the fark to they care?

Biatch all you want, we'll just ignore you, and if you make too much fuss, we'll disappear your ass, and send in the dogs and the killer bees to entertain your neighbors.

All legal and legitimate in the here and now.

No charges - let alone "proof" necessary.

That "right to remain silent" seems increasingly prudent under progressive Authoritarianism, doesn't it?
 
2012-12-16 01:24:21 AM  

12349876: Gulper Eel: There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.

Because their amygdalae don't work. Duh. What to do about that is the hard part.


I think the problem is more in the insula and mediolateral prefrontal cortex, as far as I recall.
 
2012-12-16 01:24:51 AM  
Link

zvoidx: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Perhaps, on some level, they're seeking a rush/chemical change in the brain that is achieved, or at least they think will be achieved, by going through with a shooting.


I bet they fantasize, going through how they think it will go and how people react, for days on end. Hour after hour of living it before they go through with it. This way they have lived it so much that killing oneself is logical, they've already had the pleasure many times over. If they are not fully delusional* they may have several grudges [with real people] that they also re-live repeatedly.They think of what would be the best revenge for the grudge and go over it many times, getting their jollies finally getting even etc.

* I am talking delusional as thought processes that are not logical nor make sense even in the affected's mind.

That is my guesses about what this type of person goes through before they commit the crimes.

Calling them "crazy" and forgetting about it just makes it worse.

They are just as human as you and I . The question is how did they start with their disordered thinking? What caused it? Then, most important, medically, psychologically do something to prevent or mollify such anti-social [to the point of planning killings] feelings and thoughts. Someone needs to do that. It may not be you [who just call it "crazy" and walk away] but this is what psychologists are for. Here is a great post on why stigmatizing mental illness just brings more shooters to the fore. http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shoot ings-to-mental-illness/ "But I'm asking you-begging you, really, to not decide that Lanza had a mental illness. I'm asking you not to make "being a good person" the standard for mentally healthy.
Do not try to rationalize this away with mental illness. Stop talking about how it could have been schizophrenia, stop saying he had to have mental health issues. You do not know.
You do not know his state of mind. When you decide to armchair quarterback him, to stamp him with an "obvious" diagnosis, do you know what you are saying?"  Here is a terrible thing. The only thing that could possibly cause someone to do such a terrible, tragic thing is to have This Disorder. Because only people with This Disorder could be so dangerous/awful/scary.
 
2012-12-16 01:32:28 AM  

X-boxershorts: You honestly want your kids kindergarten school armed?


Well yes, seeing as these mass shooting only seem to happen at locations where the shooter knows he will not meet armed resistance, I think placing armed security personal in schools is a completely logical solution.
 
2012-12-16 01:34:39 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Spanking our damn spoiled rotten kids, though it will take a generation or two to work.
 
2012-12-16 01:35:04 AM  

KimNorth: Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.

I bet you as you write this full of yourself to have the "rights" of lawful Americans taken away for the children of course, you have also posted for the right of millions to kill their little babies as after all it's their "right".

You know what people like you are called???



"Progressive"?
 
2012-12-16 01:41:26 AM  

Amos Quito: KimNorth: Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.

I bet you as you write this full of yourself to have the "rights" of lawful Americans taken away for the children of course, you have also posted for the right of millions to kill their little babies as after all it's their "right".

You know what people like you are called???


"Progressive"?


Progressively Hypocritical, yes that it.
 
2012-12-16 01:41:34 AM  

urban.derelict: rappy: If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.

what? I deserve to be in prison because I got tired of being f*cking mugged and bought myself a hand gun to protect myself and my home?


Well, alternatively you could have figured out what it was that was going on in your life that you were being mugged so often, and done it less.

I've done a lot of crazy dangerous shiat in my life, but I've never been mugged or even been worried about it. I've also never owned a gun.
 
2012-12-16 01:44:08 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: serpent_sky: Gulper Eel: Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.

I've never understood that. What do you care, if you're dead and not there to see it? Where is the payoff if you don't get to see the end results? Maybe I'm just not a criminally insane psychopath, so I am glad I can't understand it, but it's incredibly confusing to me.

Some people want to leave a legacy.
This is no different than a rich guy having his name put on a building that he donated as part of his will.


It is different. It doesn't happen nearly so much in other English speaking democracies. It's not the ownership of guns that does it. But there are people everywhere who want to see the world burn.
 
2012-12-16 01:45:05 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Well, alternatively you could have figured out what it was that was going on in your life that you were being mugged so often, and done it less.


I'd punch you right in the jaw if you said that to me in person. In the very next line you admit to never having been mugged, right aftr you tell me DONT GET MUGGED
 
2012-12-16 01:46:00 AM  
I was walking home from f*cking grade school, ftr. I was maybe 12 years old.
 
2012-12-16 01:47:14 AM  

Okie_Gunslinger: fusillade762: Just curious: can someone link me to a story where a shooter (or potential shooter) was taken down by an armed civilian? Cops don't count.

Here ya go, no hair splitting, he's an honest to god civilian with a concealed carry license who likely saved a lot of peoples lives by showing the shooter he wasn't the only person armed at the Clackamas Mall Link


Huh. Interesting.

"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them,"

Charlotte?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-16 01:48:53 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: Like we do illegal drugs.........yeah, that will work


illegal drugs f*cking rock, they don't turn you into a fat combative farking asshole the way alcohol does -- tinyurl.com/1mn it's a war on minorities to replace outlawed slave labor with prison labor, STUPID!
 
2012-12-16 01:55:31 AM  

KimNorth: Amos Quito: KimNorth: Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.

I bet you as you write this full of yourself to have the "rights" of lawful Americans taken away for the children of course, you have also posted for the right of millions to kill their little babies as after all it's their "right".

You know what people like you are called???


"Progressive"?

Progressively Hypocritical, yes that it.



:-)
 
2012-12-16 01:57:37 AM  

kombi: I think its kind of simple. As a gun owner and collector my guns are secure. They are not loaded Ammo is not stored with them. They are locked in a safe in a locked closet. Not put in a nightstand drawer loaded. Cocked and locked. We have a 2nd amendment right to own guns. That does not mean everyone should have them.
If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive. There is something that all thees shooters have in common. There crazy. Maybe if mommy and daddy gave a crap and the schools where not afraid to label kids. They might get help. Stereotypes exists for a reason. They are based in truth. Goth kids are usually screwed up. Jocks are ass holes. Cheerleaders ass holes...Goes on and on.


This! I have guns. Not many, but I have a 20g pump shotgun. It's great for killing the occasional rattler that finds it's way onto our property. We also have a Mossberg 715T. A .22 semi-auto that LOOKS just like a M16. Funny because I guarantee that the anti gun nuts would say it's a "assault rifle", even though it is nothing more than a semi-auto .22 repackaged to look like a m16. It is a great little gun that we use for target shooting. Very cheap to shoot, fairly quiet and all around fun. And for Christmas this year my wife is getting a .22 pistol, a Walther p22 in pink. She wants a pistol so she can target shoot with us as she doesn't really like the rifles.

We are not gun nuts, but we as a family like to target shoot. The kids have bb guns and have been taught gun safety from day one. The biggest problem I have with this tragic story is that while the mother purchases these guns legally, they were not secured. As with kombi, our three guns are secured in a gun safe. In addition each has a gun cable lock through the chamber, making it impossible to fire the weapon. The keys for the locks are kept hidden and the ammo is stored in a locked separate location. There are responsible and irresponsible people. Most of own cars. Most of us are responsible with automobiles, however there are some among us that will go our and get drunk, get behind the wheel and kill a family. Should we ban everyone from owning cars because there are those among us who can't be responsible or are just mentally unstable?

What happened at this elementary school is tragic and heart breaking. But for some of you to go on this, "all gun owners are crazy nuts and killings wouldn't happen if no one owned guns"is just plain stupid. I agree that there are those in our society that have no business near a gun. There has to be a system in place to keep then from being able to purchase and own a gun. But we also have to have responsible gun owners, owners who make damn sure that their guns are secure. But denying me and others the right to own firearms because there are some idiots in the world isn't the answer.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:29 AM  

mc_madness: I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Asperger kids are PURE EVIL.

I'm moving my family to Nova Scotia away from these immunized freaks of nature.


You are one of those "vaccines cause autism" crowd? All of the support for that theory is pseudoscience and fraud. There is no big government conspiracy to hide the truly rare vaccine reactions/side-effects. The US needs as little conspiracy, cargo-cult science, maverick, anti-establishment "heroes" as possible so please go. However, where ever you go autistic people are there, we are about 1% of the population and have been here way before the idea of vaccines entered our minds. Here are a few facts about autism in society: "Autistic Americans and individuals with other disabilities are no more likely to commit violent crime than non-disabled people. In fact, people with disabilities of all kinds, including autism, are vastly more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators. Should the shooter in today's shooting prove to in fact be diagnosed on the autism spectrum or with another disability, the millions of Americans with disabilities should be no more implicated in his actions than the non-disabled population is responsible for those of non-disabled shooters." http://autisticadvocacy.org/2012/12/asan-statement-on-media-reports-re garding-newton-ct-shooting/


Lack of empathy is a myth an error in observation of autistic people. We actually feel empathy so much more strongly that we often go into a state of panic or shock. This is misinterpreted as not responding to others thus =no-empathy That is how we look from the ***outside*** talk to an autistic person who has no difficulty in communication and ask them if they can feel the emotions that other people feel--I recommend this woman Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg she is on Facebook and has a few web pages on the topic of autism and empathy. 

Please give us a second try with an autistic person who is educated and a good communicator. We are not "pure evil".
 
2012-12-16 02:04:20 AM  
Here is a great post on why stigmatizing mental illness just brings more shooters to the fore. http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shoot ings-to-mental-illness/ "But I'm asking you-begging you, really, to not decide that Lanza had a mental illness. I'm asking you not to make "being a good person" the standard for mentally healthy.
Do not try to rationalize this away with mental illness. Stop talking about how it could have been schizophrenia, stop saying he had to have mental health issues. You do not know.
You do not know his state of mind. When you decide to armchair quarterback him, to stamp him with an "obvious" diagnosis, do you know what you are saying?" Here is a terrible thing. The only thing that could possibly cause someone to do such a terrible, tragic thing is to have This Disorder. Because only people with This Disorder could be so dangerous/awful/scary.


I disagree. Many of the recent mass shooters where examination was possible have been diagnosed with mental disorders. Dylan Klebold was a manic depressive. Eric Harris was a psychopath. Loughner and Holmes are schizophrenic. Seung-Hui Cho showed signs of schizophrenia. Scott Evans Dekraai had post-traumatic stress disorder. Robert Hawkins had a long history of psychiatric issues and had been hospitilized for them twice. That's just a few minutes' worth of digging.
 
2012-12-16 02:05:38 AM  

fusillade762: Huh. Interesting.

"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them,"

Charlotte?



Yeah, the kid seems pretty shaken up in the video, but he did everything right and didn't get trigger happy. His decision to hold his fire worked out in the end, these mass shooters seem to kill themselves at the first hint of resistance, perhaps they are afraid of being wounded and taken into custody.
 
2012-12-16 02:06:47 AM  
That's not to say mental illness should be stigmatized, but rather that we need to do a better job of providing help to those who need it. Nobody should be afraid of getting better or helping others to get better.
 
2012-12-16 02:06:49 AM  

Amos Quito: I'm sure that you're perfectly comfortable in surrendering all ability to resist to this guy


I find it interesting that your angle here is entirely focused on whether someone is going to threaten your "rights" when a mass murder incident is either attempted or carried out. Your priorities as a human being (and those reacting like you) are on display here and its very very ugly. If that is your primary concern then you should probably provide some reason anyone rational and humane would listen to your opinion on this at all.
 
2012-12-16 02:08:30 AM  

mc_madness: Asperger kids are PURE EVIL.


Oh good. It looks like we've got a real turdfest tonight here.
 
2012-12-16 02:10:46 AM  
How else is your average kid going to inspire his country to modify its constitution?
 
2012-12-16 02:13:54 AM  

urban.derelict: Gyrfalcon: Well, alternatively you could have figured out what it was that was going on in your life that you were being mugged so often, and done it less.

I'd punch you right in the jaw if you said that to me in person. In the very next line you admit to never having been mugged, right aftr you tell me DONT GET MUGGED


I used to ride the bus from Hollywood to downtown LA at 3 a.m. I went around Sunset and Hollywood Blvd. after dark all the time. I lived alone in L.A. and Long Beach. I never got mugged. Oh, and I'm a girl. I never got raped either, or even harassed.

If you got mugged more than once, I can only assume you weren't being careful. Feel free to try to punch me in the jaw, though.
 
2012-12-16 02:15:06 AM  

emersonbiggins: Come for the school massacre, stay for Frank Lloyd Wright's only built skyscraper:


I would love to see that in person. It looks awesome.
 
2012-12-16 02:25:29 AM  

Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.


If you are an American, I feel sorry for you. As already stated above, the founding fathers knew that in order to limit government, the people needed a way to stand up to the government. Without this check and balance, the govnment would again become too powerful and oppressive. They built resistance into the constitution. In a moment of panic and fear, to strip away one of the greatest gifts given to the American People by the founding fathers, would be tragic. Again, as pointed out above, you may like the president and not worry if he got a little grabby with power...but what if it was GW and his main man Chaney? Would you still feel okay with the president getting a little grabby on power? Once a citizenship is disarmed, only the government has the guns.
 
2012-12-16 02:35:03 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Beatings.

Kids are not allowed to fight (fists) any more. So they never learn how far is too far. And they never learn respect for their peers or for adults. How do you learn not to hurt others if you've never experienced the pain or humiliation of having your ass rightfully kicked? (I'm not talking about beating your kids, mind you.)

Plus getting your nose broken or grappling during recess is a good release of aggression. Sparring is a natural part of growing up.

What life lessons are learned by having an iPhone confiscated?
 
2012-12-16 02:36:32 AM  

Agent Nick Fury: Baloo Uriza: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Universal healthcare, including mental healthcare.

Really?

Mental healthcare - here is a perscription for your mental health problems - WHAT? He killed twelve people? - Evidently he stopped taking his medication.

How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?


So don't even bother trying, is that what you're saying? What's your solution, o wise one?
 
2012-12-16 02:42:58 AM  

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Beatings.

Kids are not allowed to fight (fists) any more. So they never learn how far is too far. And they never learn respect for their peers or for adults. How do you learn not to hurt others if you've never experienced the pain or humiliation of having your ass rightfully kicked? (I'm not talking about beating your kids, mind you.)

Plus getting your nose broken or grappling during recess is a good release of aggression. Sparring is a natural part of growing up.

What life lessons are learned by having an iPhone confiscated?


If you think kids need to be in fights or abused by adults to learn "how far is too far," you're part of the problem. Kids are certainly, on the whole, over-coddled and over-privledged in modern American society, but smacking them around doesn't teach them anything but that violence is OK and a way to solve problems.

If you have anything to back up this ridiculous assertion, whip us out a link showing a kid with no abuse from adults or other kids who went on to be a psycho killer.

/hoping I've been trolled
 
2012-12-16 02:43:07 AM  
Right
 
2012-12-16 02:46:50 AM  
Beatings.

Kids are not allowed to fight (fists) any more. So they never learn how far is too far. And they never learn respect for their peers or for adults. How do you learn not to hurt others if you've never experienced the pain or humiliation of having your ass rightfully kicked? (I'm not talking about beating your kids, mind you.)

Plus getting your nose broken or grappling during recess is a good release of aggression. Sparring is a natural part of growing up.

What life lessons are learned by having an iPhone confiscated?


This. It's easy to tell kids that violence is never the answer- it isn't- but I think you learn that lesson a lot more easily/permanently if you occasionally experience it as a kid. One of the consequences of making mistakes is pain- physical, mental, whatever. Better to become acquainted with the concept early on, to lessen the shock of it later. At some point in their precious little lives, kids are going to hit a rock wall at which point they will realize that life sometimes isn't much fun. The more ready for that moment they are, the less likely for them to react irrationally or destructively, to themselves or others. Also, a little fear is a healthy thing. Without the numerous trappings of modern western society, the world is a hard and dangerous place that should be feared and respected, and you never know when you're going to find yourself in an uncomfortable, unstable, or outright dangerous situation.
 
2012-12-16 02:47:51 AM  

Somacandra: Amos Quito: I'm sure that you're perfectly comfortable in surrendering all ability to resist to this guy

I find it interesting that your angle here is entirely focused on whether someone is going to threaten your "rights" when a mass murder incident is either attempted or carried out. Your priorities as a human being (and those reacting like you) are on display here and its very very ugly. If that is your primary concern then you should probably provide some reason anyone rational and humane would listen to your opinion on this at all.



Are you suggesting that the interests of the "greater good" (society at large) should override that of those with a "particular interest" (those directly affected by the tragedy)?

Because if you are, I submit that you just shot yourself in the foot.

/No pun intended
 
2012-12-16 02:49:20 AM  

Somacandra: If that is your primary concern then you should probably provide some reason anyone rational and humane would listen to your opinion on this at all.



Scroll up the thread for answers.
 
2012-12-16 02:53:58 AM  

Amos Quito: the "greater good"


i184.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-16 02:54:07 AM  
It would be nice if we could go back in time and ask the founding fathers "Is this really what you had in mind?"
 
2012-12-16 03:00:33 AM  

kombi: If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive


For crying out loud.....THIS^

/everyone else too.
 
2012-12-16 03:08:20 AM  

Harry_Seldon: The one thing that surprises me if that I don't here more out of the gun rights activists and organizations getting out in front of these issues. Is the reason for this is that guns are big business in the US, and there is just too much money being made by manufacturers and sellers to even develop more proactive policies towards gun ownership?


They NRA (I used to be a member until I got sick of their politics) and other (less politically motivated) shooting groups are *huge* proponents of gun safety and education. If somebody approached them about putting together classes on evading a shooter and surviving a school shooting, I bet you would have hoards of volunteers. The problem based on my small sampling of anti-gun friends is that they want an all-or-none approach-- they want legislation to eliminate the threat. And that's just not a timely or realistic solution.

Banning all guns *right now* does nothing to protect the victims of tomorrow's shootings.

If you browse through all the hype right now on how to protect the children, you will see scores of arguments on banning guns, banning assault weapons, taxing ammo, screening all gun buyers for mental issues, etc. Fine, whatever. None of that does anything to increase survivability of victims. It's all feel-good BS. Why don't we train teachers (and students) in basic gun safety, and basic strategies to escape a shooting alive?

As I said right after the VT shooting-- which I narrowly missed: We teach kids about traffic safety, strangers, drugs, alcohol, sex and STDs, driving, electricity safety, poison control, fireworks, diet and exercise, etc..... Where's the 1-2 hours of gun safety? Where's the hour of instruction on what to do (move) and what not do do (cower and not move)? Schools absolutely refuse to teach it. And I consider their hands to be bloody in this matter. It isn't even a political pro/anti gun issue when you consider that the threat is obviously real.

Taking your students to a "safe space" and reading to them is probably the dumbest thing I have read in all the articles on the shooting this week.

If teachers really give a shiat about the safety of their students, they'll get educated on what guns can and can't do. This might mean sucking it up and going to the gun range to at least experience the noise first-hand. Better yet, they can fire a few rounds and realize what it really take to hit a target. It's not as easy as a video game.

When kids don't know what to do, they are going to look to the adults in the room. And those adults better farking have a clue on what to do other than corraling everyone into a corner to wait for death.

If you haven't been to an indoor range or if you have not fired a gun, I urge you to try it, if only for the knowledge that it imparts. You lose nothing but a bit of $$$ for the ammo, rental and instruction. And I gurantee that you will learn from it. 

A post above asked about the medicine to solve these kinds of problems: Survival instinct. I think we've obviously lost it or grown too complacent.
 
2012-12-16 03:14:24 AM  

OBBN: kombi: I think its kind of simple. As a gun owner and collector my guns are secure. They are not loaded Ammo is not stored with them. They are locked in a safe in a locked closet. Not put in a nightstand drawer loaded. Cocked and locked. We have a 2nd amendment right to own guns. That does not mean everyone should have them.
If mom would have had her guns stored properly. May not have happened. She might still be alive. There is something that all thees shooters have in common. There crazy. Maybe if mommy and daddy gave a crap and the schools where not afraid to label kids. They might get help. Stereotypes exists for a reason. They are based in truth. Goth kids are usually screwed up. Jocks are ass holes. Cheerleaders ass holes...Goes on and on.

This! I have guns. Not many, but I have a 20g pump shotgun. It's great for killing the occasional rattler that finds it's way onto our property. We also have a Mossberg 715T. A .22 semi-auto that LOOKS just like a M16. Funny because I guarantee that the anti gun nuts would say it's a "assault rifle", even though it is nothing more than a semi-auto .22 repackaged to look like a m16. It is a great little gun that we use for target shooting. Very cheap to shoot, fairly quiet and all around fun. And for Christmas this year my wife is getting a .22 pistol, a Walther p22 in pink. She wants a pistol so she can target shoot with us as she doesn't really like the rifles.

We are not gun nuts, but we as a family like to target shoot. The kids have bb guns and have been taught gun safety from day one. The biggest problem I have with this tragic story is that while the mother purchases these guns legally, they were not secured. As with kombi, our three guns are secured in a gun safe. In addition each has a gun cable lock through the chamber, making it impossible to fire the weapon. The keys for the locks are kept hidden and the ammo is stored in a locked separate location. There are responsible and irresponsible people. Most of own ...


Bravo. You and I are on the same page. I have been around guns as long as I can remember. And I know back then. they are not toys. Thats part of the problem now a days. This whole guns are bad thing is crazy. people are bad. Guns are objects. Thats why I made the comment about the ar15 that was in the car. Thats a lead with some of the stories. IT WAS IN THE CAR. As far as we know so fare no one was killed with it. We have demonized guns. Not people. I degrees.

And like most. Most of my guns are considered Assault rifles. That had turned into a very wide term. Its almost like anything but a shotgun is an assault weapon.

Maybe there needs to be more training when you buy a gun.
Most gun owners take good care of there guns. All locked away. But even if it was 1 out of 100 that does not. Your going to have problems.

Oh and the best gun for home security is a shogun. Dont need ammo. that cock it.
 
2012-12-16 03:17:37 AM  

fusillade762: It would be nice if we could go back in time and ask the founding fathers "Is this really what you had in mind?"


I think when you finished explaining the situation

their heads would explode before they could answer.
 
2012-12-16 03:21:59 AM  

juvandy: Dylan Klebold was a manic depressive. Eric Harris was a psychopath. Loughner and Holmes are schizophrenic. Seung-Hui Cho showed signs of schizophrenia. Scott Evans Dekraai had post-traumatic stress disorder. Robert Hawkins had a long history of psychiatric issues and had been hospitilized for them twice. That's just a few minutes' worth of digging.


Really, doctor? You know this how? Also couldn't Loughner be a schizo and a psychopath?
 
2012-12-16 03:22:59 AM  

WhyKnot: Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.

If you are an American, I feel sorry for you. As already stated above, the founding fathers knew that in order to limit government, the people needed a way to stand up to the government. Without this check and balance, the govnment would again become too powerful and oppressive. They built resistance into the constitution. In a moment of panic and fear, to strip away one of the greatest gifts given to the American People by the founding fathers, would be tragic. Again, as pointed out above, you may like the president and not worry if he got a little grabby with power...but what if it was GW and his main man Chaney? Would you still feel okay with the president getting a little grabby on power? Once a citizenship is disarmed, only the government has the guns.


I feel sorry for YOU, whyknot, and the state of paranoia you live in? You really think citizens of all those countries with strict gun control are oppressed and powerless against their government? Those poor enslaved folks of England, or Japan? If "freedom" means everyone armed to the tooth and a culture of fear - where people like many in this thread think 20 children's deaths are an acceptable tradeoff if it means you get to protect your home against an intruder who almost certainly doesn't exist - well, fark that: there needs to be limits to these freedoms. I knew a family in that school yesterday. Wait until you know someone this has happened to. It may change your opinion.
 
2012-12-16 03:27:55 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


Folks have mentioned a few vaccines like, oh, national single-payer healthcare with free psychiatric treatment, reworking the Baker Act to allow mandated treatment of dangerously mentally ill persons without an actual attempt at harm, expansion of pre-existing mandated reporter systems (for child abuse) to adulthood, restricting purchase of firearms besides bolt-action long guns and shotguns, requiring training/psych eval/etc. as a condition of purchase and shutting down private firearms transfers, restrictions on firearms ownership if a mentally ill person is in household, a vast reversal of the massive gutting of mental health programs in the US that has pretty much wrecked availability of programs even if one can afford them, societal change to generally not have Americans thinking the gun is good and the penis is evil, etc. (I'll even throw in a bonus: "Careful evaluation of reasons a kid is being pulled out of a public school in favour of homeschooling, just to see if it's not a 'red flag' that the family in question could be in need of additional services from the community".)

Unfortunately, the vaccine needed to actually be effective (and which has been successful in places like the UK and Australia and Israel, all of which tightened the hell up with their gun laws after similar mass murders (the UK and Oz) and assassinations (Israel) is going to be roughly as popular as polio vaccination in parts of the world controlled by the Taliban or Boko Haram or Al-Shabaab. (For those who aren't aware--those three lovely groups of Wahhabist religionationalist derptards are pretty much the reason polio hasn't yet been eradicated--they refuse to let kids get vaccination because OH NOES WESTERN CRUSADER MEDICINE OH NOES!!!!11one! and as a result Nigeria, the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and Somalia have been major foci for not only the continued spread of wild-type polio but even the occasional spread of epidemics to OTHER countries.)
 
2012-12-16 03:29:57 AM  

juvandy: Beatings.

Kids are not allowed to fight (fists) any more. So they never learn how far is too far. And they never learn respect for their peers or for adults. How do you learn not to hurt others if you've never experienced the pain or humiliation of having your ass rightfully kicked? (I'm not talking about beating your kids, mind you.)

Plus getting your nose broken or grappling during recess is a good release of aggression. Sparring is a natural part of growing up.

What life lessons are learned by having an iPhone confiscated?

This. It's easy to tell kids that violence is never the answer- it isn't- but I think you learn that lesson a lot more easily/permanently if you occasionally experience it as a kid. One of the consequences of making mistakes is pain- physical, mental, whatever. Better to become acquainted with the concept early on, to lessen the shock of it later. At some point in their precious little lives, kids are going to hit a rock wall at which point they will realize that life sometimes isn't much fun. The more ready for that moment they are, the less likely for them to react irrationally or destructively, to themselves or others. Also, a little fear is a healthy thing. Without the numerous trappings of modern western society, the world is a hard and dangerous place that should be feared and respected, and you never know when you're going to find yourself in an uncomfortable, unstable, or outright dangerous situation.


So you're saying violence is never the answer, except when beating kids so they learn...something that they apparently can't learn without being beaten.
 
2012-12-16 03:47:18 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: kombi:

I confess I am very curious as to why and how the mother got an AR-15 equivalent.


Gun store? Home FFL dealer? Private purchase? Mail order? ( yes, you can order a gun over the Internet if you have it shipped to a FFL holders address.)

Hell, the grocery store near my house has a fully stocked gun counter, and half of the rifles are AR-15 clones. I noticed they went up 25% in price this morning as well.
 
2012-12-16 03:47:20 AM  

Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?


You see "Moonraker"?
 
2012-12-16 03:50:21 AM  
Homeschooling my kids is sounding more and more attractive.
 
2012-12-16 03:57:32 AM  

GladGirl: I feel sorry for YOU, whyknot, and the state of paranoia you live in? You really think citizens of all those countries with strict gun control are oppressed and powerless against their government? Those poor enslaved folks of England, or Japan? If "freedom" means everyone armed to the tooth and a culture of fear - where people like many in this thread think 20 children's deaths are an acceptable tradeoff if it means you get to protect your home against an intruder who almost certainly doesn't exist - well, fark that: there needs to be limits to these freedoms. I knew a family in that school yesterday. Wait until you know someone this has happened to. It may change your opinion.


So because some other countries with stronger gun control haven't become tyrannies, it's not necessary to allow for the possibility of the people needing to fight back against tyranny?

I lean toward prevention in this debate, but you are absolutely and without question missing the point of the 2nd Amendment. Let's put the shoe on the other foot here for a moment. Let's go back in time to when some on the left were afraid that George W. Bush might try to stay in office beyond his term-limited 8 years. Let's say he let the religious right run amok, putting prayer in schools, passing laws that establish christianity as a force in governance and - to go to a ridiculous extreme for the sake of making my point - restricting access to voting for non-whites and non-Christians, and more importantly, restricting the right of assembly.

Should not the reasonable people of the United States be allowed the means to overthrow such a government by force, if necessary?

Such an overthrow would be very difficult in any country, but certainly if such changes were to happen in England or Japan, the people of those nations would have a hard time with the stricter gun controls.

The point is, it is written into the US Constitution that we as a people have a right to defend ourselves against government tyranny - and he unlikelihood of such tyranny is entirely beside the point.

A solution needs to be found for the rise in gun violence in this nation. The people who are Chicken Littling about their 2nd Amendment rights need to man up, come to the table and help solve the problem, because right now they're helping to create it.

The solution may include some additional restrictions on gun ownership and guns themselves. But more importantly, the solution needs to be more systemic. It must include mental health services, and other things that will cost money. And one of the biggest problems in this debate is that people screaming about their gun rights are, by and large, the same people who flat-out refuse to help (or even allow) the government pay for any social programs or anything that benefits the people as a whole. By and large these people believe in every man for himself, even though, by and large, they also profess themselves to be christians.

To quote something a friend posted online a couple days ago:


Gun people: fix this yourselves. It is YOUR right to carry, then it is YOUR responsibility to find a solution to this madness of random killings. Step up and stop whining, find a way to make this NOT be a regular part of our society's experience.

It is not the guns, you say; then find a way to filter out THESE people yourselves - make the good faith legislation that does this with your big lobbies.

I don't want your guns. I don't want to take away a responsible gun-owner's gun. But even you must admit that this is out of control, out of line, out of any sense of reason or humanity. The status quo will not do.
 
2012-12-16 04:10:46 AM  
Sammie Chavez

will get little media traction. next article please.
 
2012-12-16 04:23:30 AM  

JohnnyC: Homeschooling my kids is sounding more and more attractive.


A 5 sigma event is a 5 sigma event, even if you eliminate the possibility of a few kinds those events, you have radically altered your lifestyle, and possibly quality, without meaningfully altering your odds of avoiding tragedy. Great misfortune may find anyone anywhere, all that we really control is how we respond should we be forced to confront it. What lesson is more important to pass on; living well in the face of uncertainty, or in fear because of it?
 
2012-12-16 04:46:06 AM  
Satan's Dumptruck Driver: They NRA (I used to be a member until I got sick of their politics) and other (less politically motivated) shooting groups are *huge* proponents of gun safety and education. If somebody approached them about putting together classes on evading a shooter and surviving a school shooting, I bet you would have hoards of volunteers. The problem based on my small sampling of anti-gun friends is that they want an all-or-none approach-- they want legislation to eliminate the threat. And that's just not a timely or realistic solution.

So your solution is that we must all get firearms training and learn to defend ourselves against mentally ill person with a powerful, fast-shooting gun? Does that actually sound reasonable to you?

Why don't we just expect everyone to be trained in firefighting and have all the necessary equipment, rather than have electrical codes, flame retardant building materials, etc.? Why don't we let people just choose and install their own safety equipment on cars rather than mandating seat belts and air bags?

I don't believe legislation can completely eliminate the threat, but it can sure minimize it. Why is it so unreasonable to want to minimize the threat?

Accepting that mentally ill people are going to go on shooting sprees and we must all learn to defend against them is not a solution.
 
GBB
2012-12-16 04:54:48 AM  
No love for the threat to Winter Park High School???
 
2012-12-16 05:02:38 AM  
WhyKnot: If you are an American, I feel sorry for you. As already stated above, the founding fathers knew that in order to limit government, the people needed a way to stand up to the government. Without this check and balance, the govnment would again become too powerful and oppressive. They built resistance into the constitution. In a moment of panic and fear, to strip away one of the greatest gifts given to the American People by the founding fathers, would be tragic. Again, as pointed out above, you may like the president and not worry if he got a little grabby with power...but what if it was GW and his main man Chaney? Would you still feel okay with the president getting a little grabby on power? Once a citizenship is disarmed, only the government has the guns.

This is one of the more ridiculous rationalization for gun ownership. Do you listen to what you say? You honestly think the American people are going to rise up, strap on their guns and overthrow the government?

Do you think that's a good idea, to have people overthrowing the government? That's how we should express our displeasure with government actions and get things changed?

My history is rusty, but I don't think the founding fathers were trying to make sure people could overthrow the government. Their goal was to have a government that was responsible to the people and the people could peacefully advocate for change rather than overthrowing the government. That's why we have freedom of speech, of the press, the right to assemble; so that we can discuss and debate instead of armed insurrection. There's a reason why dictatorships don't allow those rights and freedoms.

Perhaps you should review the system of checks and balances. That's what protects us from power grabs. Not a bunch of gun nuts with overthrow the gub'mint fantasies.
 
2012-12-16 05:11:11 AM  
OBBN: The kids have bb guns and have been taught gun safety from day one. The biggest problem I have with this tragic story is that while the mother purchases these guns legally, they were not secured. As with kombi, our three guns are secured in a gun safe. In addition each has a gun cable lock through the chamber, making it impossible to fire the weapon. The keys for the locks are kept hidden and the ammo is stored in a locked separate location.

Oh, okay, I understand now. We just trust all parents to give their children a thorough education on guns and gun safety and keep the guns locked up. That's what we have now and it doesn't seem to be working out so well. Your kids have been taught about guns and gun safety, that doesn't mean everyone has received that education.

In this case, the shooter's mother apparently did teach him about guns, took him to the shooting range, etc. And look how well that worked out.

This shooter was 20 years old. When your kids are 20 years old, will they have free access to their guns? I'm going to guess yes. What if one of your kids is 20 years old and asks you for the key because he wants to get in some target practice. I'm going to guess you'd hand him/her the keys because after all, you taught them about guns. And as we've seen, that's a fool-proof method for preventing a mass shooting.

Yeah, I know your kids are perfect and will never have any mental health issues so it's all perfectly safe.
 
2012-12-16 05:19:12 AM  

Gulper Eel: serpent_sky: I guess there aren't really any answers, though...

There are if we can find out the causes for why somebody grows up lacking empathy.

I've been reading up on what Simon Baron-Cohen (yep, Borat's cousin) has written on the subject. Trouble is, it's the sort of work that doesn't lend itself well to politics or TV news yammerfests.


No, he wrote on the subject of "evil".

And it's not simply "lacking empathy". Many of us have little of that, some none, and would never do anything this monstrous.

What makes people do such things is psychosis/mental illness of one form or another. You'd do better to read the more science oriented DSM, not some quasi-religious babble about good vs evil.
 
2012-12-16 05:26:32 AM  
Why do you 2nd ammendment lovers always forget about the "well-regulated militia" part? Do you understand that the Constitution was written at a time when the country did not have a standing army and citizens would be called upon to defend the country if necessary?

We have a well-regulated militia to protect us; it's called the army. Feel free to volunteer anytime.
 
2012-12-16 05:31:44 AM  

Amos Quito: styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"


Does anyone REGRET the Patriot Act? The TSA? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan???

No???

Then QUIT trying to inject your reason, foresight and rationality into my emotionally fired frenzy, dude!

You're TOTALLY harshing by buzz.


STFU Amos - you speak for a minority. Most people in this country (look at the posters in these threads and talk to people in the real world) HATE the TSA and HATE the Patriot Act and those Wars. We regret ALL of them. Your stupidity is harshing everyone else's buzz.
 
2012-12-16 05:34:43 AM  

Phins: WhyKnot: If you are an American, I feel sorry for you. As already stated above, the founding fathers knew that in order to limit government, the people needed a way to stand up to the government. Without this check and balance, the govnment would again become too powerful and oppressive. They built resistance into the constitution. In a moment of panic and fear, to strip away one of the greatest gifts given to the American People by the founding fathers, would be tragic. Again, as pointed out above, you may like the president and not worry if he got a little grabby with power...but what if it was GW and his main man Chaney? Would you still feel okay with the president getting a little grabby on power? Once a citizenship is disarmed, only the government has the guns.

This is one of the more ridiculous rationalization for gun ownership. Do you listen to what you say? You honestly think the American people are going to rise up, strap on their guns and overthrow the government?

Do you think that's a good idea, to have people overthrowing the government? That's how we should express our displeasure with government actions and get things changed?

My history is rusty, but I don't think the founding fathers were trying to make sure people could overthrow the government. Their goal was to have a government that was responsible to the people and the people could peacefully advocate for change rather than overthrowing the government. That's why we have freedom of speech, of the press, the right to assemble; so that we can discuss and debate instead of armed insurrection. There's a reason why dictatorships don't allow those rights and freedoms.

Perhaps you should review the system of checks and balances. That's what protects us from power grabs. Not a bunch of gun nuts with overthrow the gub'mint fantasies.


Any system, should it get bad enough, the people WILL rise up(or die trying), with or without guns, history has shown that to always be the case. We're not talking about a tax break for the rich, we're talking about crap like what goes on overseas in modern times(do you not watch TV, never heard of a riot?), or, duh-huh, our Civil War. I know you said your history wasn't that hot, but damn...

Our government, rightfully fears that happening, and that's what protects us from power grabs of that severity. Democracy is maintained by the people, if it's lost, it's due to the people(maybe multiple generations worth, but still). The only way to lose an existing democracy without it being the fault of the people, is to get conquered.

But whatever, pretend freedom is a granted right, not an earned status. All through history people have had to re-earn the status by fighting for it.
 
2012-12-16 05:36:44 AM  

Phins: Why do you 2nd ammendment lovers always forget about the "well-regulated militia" part? Do you understand that the Constitution was written at a time when the country did not have a standing army and citizens would be called upon to defend the country if necessary?

We have a well-regulated militia to protect us; it's called the army. Feel free to volunteer anytime.


So many things wrong with what you wrote. I think the biggest being that because you don't think it applies it can magically be thrown out.
 
2012-12-16 05:37:00 AM  

mamoru: Improved education and mental health care systems. A stronger societal focus on cultivating the mind and the ability to reason and think critically as well as a societal support system for those who have difficulty coping. I'm not saying that anti-intellectualism and extreme, irrational rhetoric are the causes of such incidents. However, I suspect that they are fertilizer which helps such seeds of violence grow unnoticed until the incidents themselves happen.


In the Newtown case, we have a kid from a wealthy family in a community that places a high value on education - the resources were clearly there to get him the care he needed, but if he refused, which he would be within his rights to do as a legal adult, well...right now we're SOL.

You could have the best-financed mental health system on the planet and if the person won't get help and the courts won't involuntarily commit until it's too late, it's all for nothing.
 
2012-12-16 05:39:15 AM  
My history is rusty, but I don't think the founding fathers were trying to make sure people could overthrow the government. Their goal was to have a government that was responsible to the people and the people could peacefully advocate for change rather than overthrowing the government. That's why we have freedom of speech, of the press, the right to assemble; so that we can discuss and debate instead of armed insurrection. There's a reason why dictatorships don't allow those rights and freedoms.

Peaceful advocacy is definitely the first priority, but an armed populace allows a violent response if the populace deems it necessary (i.e., if the democratic/republican method laid out in the constitution is suspended or revoked). It's not necessarily "overthrowing the government" as being the last resort check/balance.

Why do you 2nd ammendment lovers always forget about the "well-regulated militia" part? Do you understand that the Constitution was written at a time when the country did not have a standing army and citizens would be called upon to defend the country if necessary?

It's still technically different, because, while there wasn't a standing army, the constitution did define how an army and navy would be raised and equipped by the government. The militia is supposed to be a group of people who arm themselves and act to defend the constitution of their own free will.
 
2012-12-16 05:43:31 AM  
So your solution is that we must all get firearms training and learn to defend ourselves against mentally ill person with a powerful, fast-shooting gun? Does that actually sound reasonable to you?

Why don't we just expect everyone to be trained in firefighting and have all the necessary equipment, rather than have electrical codes, flame retardant building materials, etc.? Why don't we let people just choose and install their own safety equipment on cars rather than mandating seat belts and air bags?

I don't believe legislation can completely eliminate the threat, but it can sure minimize it. Why is it so unreasonable to want to minimize the threat?

Accepting that mentally ill people are going to go on shooting sprees and we must all learn to defend against them is not a solution.


Can't it be part of the solution? We do train basic firefighting (ever seen a fire extinguisher?), first aid, etc. as the previous poster said. We also lock our doors and utilize other basic methods of security to keep ourselves safe. Why can't we be proactive? It could simply be a class that taught how to recognize and avoid/escape violent situations, if nothing else. Women have basic classes on how to avoid rape- why don't we just outlaw penises?
 
2012-12-16 05:50:12 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: fta: "researching pipe bombs"

now we need pipe control.


lamest flippancy ever: "Oh, look everyone that person over there died by X! Now we ooooobviously need X control, just like those communists want to do with are guns!"

Pipes don't kill people. Sheeple kill people.
 
2012-12-16 06:05:02 AM  

Amos Quito: Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.


My elbow is in no way firmly pointing at the Ukraine. Or the near east.
 
2012-12-16 06:38:06 AM  

rappy: It's so obvious what needs to be done. Everyone hand over their guns and we destroy them. We hunt down the black market guns and destroy those.


And 3d printers?
 
2012-12-16 06:44:22 AM  

whatshisname: Agent Nick Fury: How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

You don't. What you do is make sure you don;t glorify gun violence and make it easy for people to obtain said weapons. Then you might become a typical western nation where you measure deaths by handguns in the dozens rather than the tens of thousands.


And start the odd World War, but hey, only soldiers get killed in those, right?
Seriously, the 20th century would like a word with you.
 
2012-12-16 06:46:20 AM  
i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-12-16 06:49:12 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.


Heh. You remind me of one of our early British governors, complaining about how hard it was to govern a populace that was 'armed and drunken'.

America: unlike weenie nations, we have GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT of booze and guns.
 
2012-12-16 06:49:51 AM  

styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"


assuming of course that you are even free to pose the question 5 yrs from now.
 
2012-12-16 06:51:03 AM  

OregonVet: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x374]


was that directed at anyone in particular or everyone in the thread, or the article writer?
 
2012-12-16 06:51:55 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: It's an authoritarian's dream come true, is what it is.

Good God.

Would you rather be living in a cave and looking over your shoulder for the next club to come along and whack you? People are stupid. A civilized society requires rules and regulations.


There is a massive gap between total anarchy And getting sexually assaulted whenever I want to fly. Perhaps society could come to a reasonable compromise that keeps basic rights intact
 
2012-12-16 06:53:39 AM  

kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.


China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.
 
2012-12-16 07:00:06 AM  
Whenever I hear a pro/anti gun argument it reminds me of James Clavell's Shogun... Toranaga's thoughts on Guns specifically.
 
2012-12-16 07:04:44 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: everyone in the thread


This thread is off the rails. In particular one can see a person honestly looking at the Constitution like a jumble of post-it notes on the wall and only picks the ones that suit him. They are not mutually exclusive. This is not a reasonable person. The sad part is that he is apparently not trolling.
 
2012-12-16 07:14:25 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: I'm sure he was planning to launch the attack with kitchen knives and Louisville sluggers, since they're just as deadly as semi-automatic guns.

FTA: "Chavez was already practicing with a Colt .45"

I guess I stand corrected again. What a crazy coincidence that easily concealable firearms with 7+ round magazines that can be reloaded in seconds keep popping-up as the weapon of choice for mass-murderers. We should spend another 50 years studying this to see if we can figure out how these killers operate.


A person used to be able to buy a machine gun from Sears, and pistols have been around for 100 years. Likewise, gun laws have become stricter over the decades. By all logic, there should have been daily mass shootings in 1920's, 30's, 40's...... The only thing anyone wants to talk about is guns..... but is it possible there is some other problem occurring?

/maybe he wanted a Twinkie, and they were sold out?
 
2012-12-16 07:18:57 AM  

PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.


You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.
 
2012-12-16 07:24:42 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Whenever I hear a pro/anti gun argument it reminds me of James Clavell's Shogun... Toranaga's thoughts on Guns specifically.


That's Toranaga-sama, and one of the greatest novels of all time.
 
2012-12-16 07:53:43 AM  

OregonVet: HindiDiscoMonster: everyone in the thread

This thread is off the rails. In particular one can see a person honestly looking at the Constitution like a jumble of post-it notes on the wall and only picks the ones that suit him. They are not mutually exclusive. This is not a reasonable person. The sad part is that he is apparently not trolling.


aaaah understood.
 
2012-12-16 07:55:05 AM  

p4p3rm4t3: HindiDiscoMonster: Whenever I hear a pro/anti gun argument it reminds me of James Clavell's Shogun... Toranaga's thoughts on Guns specifically.

That's Toranaga-sama, and one of the greatest novels of all time.


well, I didn't give him the honorable part because he is just the fictional version of Tokugawa Ieyasu-SAMA :)
 
2012-12-16 08:06:23 AM  

dogblue: Linkzvoidx: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Perhaps, on some level, they're seeking a rush/chemical change in the brain that is achieved, or at least they think will be achieved, by going through with a shooting.

I bet they fantasize, going through how they think it will go and how people react, for days on end. Hour after hour of living it before they go through with it. This way they have lived it so much that killing oneself is logical, they've already had the pleasure many times over. If they are not fully delusional* they may have several grudges [with real people] that they also re-live repeatedly.They think of what would be the best revenge for the grudge and go over it many times, getting their jollies finally getting even etc.

* I am talking delusional as thought processes that are not logical nor make sense even in the affected's mind.

That is my guesses about what this type of person goes through before they commit the crimes.

Calling them "crazy" and forgetting about it just makes it worse.

They are just as human as you and I . The question is how did they start with their disordered thinking? What caused it? Then, most important, medically, psychologically do something to prevent or mollify such anti-social [to the point of planning killings] feelings and thoughts. Someone needs to do that. It may not be you [who just call it "crazy" and walk away] but this is what psychologists are for. Here is a great post on why stigmatizing mental illness just brings more shooters to the fore. http://freethoughtblogs.com/ashleymiller/2012/12/14/when-you-tie-shoot ings-to-mental-illness/ "But I'm asking you-begging you, really, to not decide that Lanza had a mental illness. I'm asking you not to make "being a good person" the standard for mentally healthy.
Do not try to rationalize this away with mental illness. Stop talking about how it could have been schizop ...

''

My comment didn't mention mental illness.

Seems people keep asking "why" these shootings keep happening. I am proposing perhaps. at least with some shooters, they're consciously or unconsciously seeking out a brain rush; that, on a base level, the "thrill" of the shooting and the chemical reaction that it causes in the brain is more the desired goal than hatred, vendetta, etc. This would be whether or not they have a diagnosable illness or not.

As to why this would be sought out with this kind of act would be have to be examined. It doesn't make these kind of acts any less criminal or excusable..just considering that possibility into the discussion.
 
2012-12-16 08:07:57 AM  
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.
 
2012-12-16 08:16:46 AM  
I'm pro variable fighter ownership. I swear I'll only use it to get to work.

img708.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-16 08:17:09 AM  

PunGent: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.


Just out of curiosity, how come when you attempt t quote someone, it goes wonky?
 
2012-12-16 08:30:01 AM  
Home school for every kid.
 
2012-12-16 08:33:13 AM  

Deep Contact: Home school for every kid.


It's what Jesus would have wanted when he rode Dinosaurs.
 
2012-12-16 08:39:51 AM  

BronyMedic: Deep Contact: Home school for every kid.

It's what Jesus would have wanted when he rode Dinosaurs.


What was his favorite dinosaur?
 
2012-12-16 08:40:47 AM  

Gulper Eel: Coco LaFemme: What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Look in the mirror.

Turn off the TV...or at least the sensationalized coverage as provided by the major networks. The thing that spree shooters want is notoriety in death that they couldn't achieve in life.


I think you've nailed it here. Film Critic Roger Ebert put it best way back in 2003:

The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking sound bites to support it. "Wouldn't you say," she asked, "that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?" No, I said, I wouldn't say that. "But what about 'Basketball Diaries'?" she asked. "Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?" The obscure 1995 Leonardo Di Caprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office (it grossed only $2.5 million), and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.

The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."

In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them.
I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1. The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy.
 
2012-12-16 09:03:54 AM  
The authorities went in and stopped this kid? Aw man, this is just like the plot of Footloose. Those stuffy adults!
 
2012-12-16 09:07:35 AM  

BullBearMS: I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1.


Looks like they changed they're front page policy since then...Link
 
2012-12-16 09:08:20 AM  
/THEIR
 
2012-12-16 09:16:25 AM  

PunGent: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.


So tehn the fact that 90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable with proper treatment means little to you? And that the goal, going back to the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, is to wound an enemy combatant so that he is no longer participating in the fight, not killing them outright...
 
2012-12-16 09:35:18 AM  
It's the old joke about prank calling a pizza place to delivery 20 pizzas to the target of the prank.

I mean how is that even funny. What are you doing? Sitting there with Mr. Burns fingers giggling like a school girl over what you "think" might be happening? I mean you never get to see it and only if you know the person will you ever hear about it. So why not just make the entire thing imaginary?

If only we could convince these psychopaths to just "imagine" going on a shooting rampage.
 
2012-12-16 09:42:33 AM  

whatshisname: Amos Quito: Rights are easy to surrender. Getting them back can be a tad more difficult.

What a lame and entirely predictable response. The "right" to stick a gun down your pants and go to the mall is not a right at all. It's a weird privilege that seems to be in vogue in states where the IQ rarely creeps above room temperature.


As an Iowan I take offense to that. It is very easy to get a concealed carry permit here. Take a class, pay some money and its yours. Not only that but we are avid hunters, the majority of our population is armed in some way. Either you have a gun or you directly know someone who has one. I doubt the degree of separation goes too much farther than that. Last time I checked we haven't had any mass shootings in the news.

A gun is just another tool in the shed. That goes for not just us in Iowa but most of the mid-west. Our current gun laws are good, we do not need new ones. New ones will not stop the people who are insane enough to shoot up a school, they'll still find a gun, or a knife or a baseball bat.
 
2012-12-16 09:48:41 AM  

bratchaman: It's the old joke about prank calling a pizza place to delivery 20 pizzas to the target of the prank.

I mean how is that even funny. What are you doing? Sitting there with Mr. Burns fingers giggling like a school girl over what you "think" might be happening? I mean you never get to see it and only if you know the person will you ever hear about it. So why not just make the entire thing imaginary?

If only we could convince these psychopaths to just "imagine" going on a shooting rampage.


That's what Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Halo, etc. are for.
 
2012-12-16 09:52:48 AM  

NEDM: PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.


All of that is true. Controlling guns will not eliminate incidents like this. It will greatly reduce deaths. Stop, ffs, looking for or demanding some sort of universal panacea for violence and concentrate on mitigating the results and reducing the incidences due to impulse and sudden rage. At the same time start taking steps to try to reduce the causes of the violence.
 
2012-12-16 11:24:33 AM  

Sirveaux: kombi: ok a knife. cant find the link to the story

You mean this one?

The one where 22 people were injured and not killed?


All that does is teach the next guy with a knife to stab harder, maybe do some research as to what the best place to stab them would be

If at first you don't succeed try try again.......
 
2012-12-16 11:46:46 AM  

my lip balm addiction: Amos Quito: styckx: The only thing that bothers me is this.

What laws 5 years from now will be acted upon and when someone goes "When the fark did that bullshiat get passed into law and who the fark allowed it??" Then someone replies "Back in 2012 when panicky petes begged and pleaded at the feet of the Government to do something about all those shootings this is the result"


Does anyone REGRET the Patriot Act? The TSA? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan???

No???

Then QUIT trying to inject your reason, foresight and rationality into my emotionally fired frenzy, dude!

You're TOTALLY harshing by buzz.

STFU Amos - you speak for a minority. Most people in this country (look at the posters in these threads and talk to people in the real world) HATE the TSA and HATE the Patriot Act and those Wars. We regret ALL of them. Your stupidity is harshing everyone else's buzz.



t.qkme.me
 
2012-12-16 01:09:15 PM  

Gyrfalcon: urban.derelict: rappy: If you own a gun you probably deserve to be there.

what? I deserve to be in prison because I got tired of being f*cking mugged and bought myself a hand gun to protect myself and my home?

Well, alternatively you could have figured out what it was that was going on in your life that you were being mugged so often, and done it less.

I've done a lot of crazy dangerous shiat in my life, but I've never been mugged or even been worried about it. I've also never owned a gun.


Blaming the victim, niiiiice
 
2012-12-16 01:22:42 PM  
The only gun owners I would automatically label as "crazy" would be the open-carry types.
 
2012-12-16 01:59:02 PM  

Phins: Why do you 2nd ammendment lovers always forget about the "well-regulated militia" part? Do you understand that the Constitution was written at a time when the country did not have a standing army and citizens would be called upon to defend the country if necessary?

We have a well-regulated militia to protect us; it's called the army. Feel free to volunteer anytime.


I'm sorry does it say "the right of the well regulated militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?"

No, it says "the right of the people."

Why do you anti-gun nuts suck at reading so much?
 
2012-12-16 02:04:34 PM  

Novart: The only gun owners I would automatically label as "crazy" would be the open-carry types.


I open carried when I was either skip tracing or serving people. Good luck getting somebody to do a job that dangerous (and necessary, you don't get to have your precious rule of civil law without it) if they are told the only thing they get to defend themselves with against the jackass coming at him with a baseball bat is his fists.
 
2012-12-16 03:04:42 PM  

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Beatings.

Kids are not allowed to fight (fists) any more. So they never learn how far is too far. And they never learn respect for their peers or for adults. How do you learn not to hurt others if you've never experienced the pain or humiliation of having your ass rightfully kicked? (I'm not talking about beating your kids, mind you.)

Plus getting your nose broken or grappling during recess is a good release of aggression. Sparring is a natural part of growing up.

What life lessons are learned by having an iPhone confiscated?


Whenever I see someone acting like a self-righteous jerk I've been known to label them as "someone who didn't receive an ass-whipping earlier in life", usually as a joke. I do believe though that when people act like jerks earlier in life and get consequences for it they tend to stop acting like jerks later.
 
2012-12-16 03:48:20 PM  

KimNorth: You know what people like you are called???


Yes: Smarter than you.

I'm all for gun rights (I own a Ruger Super Red Hawk .44 with a 7" barrel and a Colt Ace .22LR pistol that I inherited from my father), I'm just not so much of a whiny hypocrite to pretend that those rights don't cost thousands of lives every year, and I'm sure as hell not stupid enough to try and pretend that if this kid didn't have access to guns that he would have found some other way to murder 26 people. Like the guy in China, he would have likely ended up hurting a lot of people, but killing none or at least way fewer than 26. If guns weren't the most efficient means of killing, we wouldn't issue them to our soldiers and law enforcement.

The biggest issue I see with most of the rabid "U CANT TAKE MAH GUNZ" people is that there is no compromise with them. They see it as a completely binary choice: either the government lets us all own as many guns of any type that we want without any restrictions whatsoever, or they ban all firearms completely. Nothing in life is actually like that. If the government passed a law tomorrow that stated that all guns must be kept in locked gun safes when not in use*, that wouldn't violate anyone's 2nd Amendment rights. You would still be allowed to buy, own, and use guns, you'd just have to keep them locked up. If the mouth-breathers would settle down long enough to have intelligent discourse on the matter instead of assuming everything is a precursor to total civilian disarmament, we might actually be able to slow down these shootings while we try and figure out ways to keep people from reaching the point where going on a killing spree becomes the most attractive option.

So, keep touting how unassailable the 2nd Amendment has to be, but don't ever, EVER forget that 18 of those kids died because of it.

*No, I don't think that's a viable option, I'm just using it as an example.
 
2012-12-16 03:51:07 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: Agent Nick Fury: Baloo Uriza: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Universal healthcare, including mental healthcare.

Really?

Mental healthcare - here is a perscription for your mental health problems - WHAT? He killed twelve people? - Evidently he stopped taking his medication.

How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

So don't even bother trying, is that what you're saying? What's your solution, o wise one?


Maybe I'm wise enough that I studied enough history to know that there is no solution.

None.

It's the human condition and government has never been able to restrain it.
 
2012-12-16 03:58:42 PM  

Flaumig: I hope that each and every one of you guns rights advocates who have raised their voice in the wake of the shootings over the past few days with cries that we shouldn't "politicize" these events, and that we need now more than ever to protect our right to bear arms...I hope that you all take some time and reach out to the families of those who have died and let them know how thankful you are that their loved ones died so that you could have guns. Those 20 children and 7 adults in CT, the dead in Aurora, Tucson, Columbine, the 30,000+ gun releated deaths that occur each year in the US, that is the price of your freedom.

So raise your flags high, and grip your guns tight, because your hands have an awful lot of blood on them.


No thanks. I do that to the soldiers that return home from war. They're the ones protecting my rights.

/Trolling grieving parents isn't the way I like to get my point across. Thanks for the suggestion though.
 
2012-12-16 04:00:29 PM  

Agent Nick Fury: Mental healthcare - here is a perscription for your mental health problems - WHAT? He killed twelve people? - Evidently he stopped taking his medication.


Assuming he was on them to begin with.

How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

We need universally available access before we can sweat the followthrough.
 
2012-12-16 04:54:00 PM  

Agent Nick Fury: 100 Watt Walrus: Agent Nick Fury: Baloo Uriza: Coco LaFemme: When diseases are in epidemic/pandemic mode, we come with a vaccine. What's the vaccine for this shiat?

Universal healthcare, including mental healthcare.

Really?

Mental healthcare - here is a perscription for your mental health problems - WHAT? He killed twelve people? - Evidently he stopped taking his medication.

How do you make sure all these mental health victims take their 'medications'?

So don't even bother trying, is that what you're saying? What's your solution, o wise one?

Maybe I'm wise enough that I studied enough history to know that there is no solution.

None.

It's the human condition and government has never been able to restrain it.


So don't bother even trying. If there's anybody mental health care would help, it's not worth it unless mental health care would help everybody and cure society of all its ills. So its best not to help anyone.

You're a beautiful human being.
 
2012-12-16 07:54:37 PM  

Phins: My history is rusty, but I don't think the founding fathers were trying to make sure people could overthrow the government.


Those guys, those founding fathers, had just done literally, specifically, exactly that - overthrow the (British) government. OMHO, they knew exactly what they were talking about.
 
2012-12-17 08:10:01 AM  

Kit Fister: PunGent: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.

So tehn the fact that 90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable with proper treatment means little to you? And that the goal, going back to the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, is to wound an enemy combatant so that he is no longer participating in the fight, not killing them outright...


Are you SERIOUSLY trying to argue that knives are as dangerous as guns?

Again, I'm a responsible gun owner...I think that particular argument is very, very weak.
 
2012-12-17 08:24:22 AM  

PunGent: Kit Fister: PunGent: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.

So tehn the fact that 90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable with proper treatment means little to you? And that the goal, going back to the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, is to wound an enemy combatant so that he is no longer participating in the fight, not killing them outright...

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to argue that knives are as dangerous as guns?

Again, I'm a responsible gun owner...I think that particular argument is very, very weak.


There's a reason that the FBI considers a man with a knife inside of 21 feet a threat warranting lethal force...
 
2012-12-17 09:50:34 AM  

Kit Fister: PunGent: Kit Fister: PunGent: <b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7488124/81313934#c81313934" target="_blank">NEDM</a>:</b> <i>PunGent: kombi: What about the story yesterday? I think it was 13 kids killed in Japan or China with a sword?

BAN ALL SHARP METAL.. Think of the children.

China. They were injured, not killed...so not really helping the pro-gun argument.

You are missing the point of that story. A madman snapped and started stabbing and slashing every kid he could get his hands on before security guards took him down. Do you think their parents find that much comfort in that their kids were "merely" injured? Do you think that those kids weren't terrified as he did his butcher's work? That it still didn't hurt like hell? That a knife attack isn't as violent as a shooting, if not more? Their children were attacked by a madman where they thought they were safest outside their own home. They're still going to be living fear for some time regardless.</i>

No, I get the point. And I'm pro-responsible-gun-ownership, btw.

The difference in the two attacks was 20 fatalities, and ZERO fatalities.

Guns ARE more dangerous than knives, that's why we equip our armies with them. Arguing otherwise is just as silly as trying to ban knives, and doesn't really advance the discussion at all.

So tehn the fact that 90% of all gunshot wounds are survivable with proper treatment means little to you? And that the goal, going back to the Hague Conventions of the late 1800s, is to wound an enemy combatant so that he is no longer participating in the fight, not killing them outright...

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to argue that knives are as dangerous as guns?

Again, I'm a responsible gun owner...I think that particular argument is very, very weak.

There's a reason that the FBI considers a man with a knife inside of 21 feet a threat warranting lethal force...


Determined to miss the farking point, some people are.

Show me a modern army where the primary weapons are knives, not rifles, and I'll concede the point.
 
2012-12-17 10:20:34 AM  

PunGent: Determined to miss the farking point, some people are.

Show me a modern army where the primary weapons are knives, not rifles, and I'll concede the point.


No, not missing the point, but you miss a major facet of the point.

A knife in a lot of cases will cause a greater, more damaging wound to the victim than a bullet. A bullet acts by simply puncturing a hole in the body, damaging tissue along its path. Bullets and knives, by profiles of the wound where a simple stabbing is performed, cause similar levels of tissue damage.

However, knives will cause greater amounts of internal laceration as during typical stabbings, the knife does not simply follow a straight path, they are often times inserted, moved around, and twisted, causing greater damage along the path of the wound.

Knives aren't used by armies or police due to one thing: Range. A gun will allow you to perform an amount of damage to an individual at a greater distance. However, knives, or in the case of wartime uses, swords have historically been quite effective on the battlefield, save for the ranged combat issue.

Further, a bullet is less reliable and controllable in the body than a knife, meaning that in cases where death is desired, a knife can be controlled to a much greater degree.

Looking at a mountain of cases involving stab-wounds, victims also experienced a greater amount of trauma done by slashing wounds rather than punctures, laying open large gashes in the body, leading to large, painful wounds and scarring well beyond the average gunshot wound.

It is generally considered that in the cases of stabbings, more intent and desire to inflict suffering on the victim is the goal.

Finally, every military in the western world, pretty much, continues to issue bayonets and train with them, and teach knife combat as an alternative to rifles or handguns. In fact, offensive use of the knife is fairly typical where close quarters, quiet death is desired.
 
2012-12-17 10:22:02 AM  
So, to add to my previous statement, I would ask: how do you define "more dangerous"? Based on wound trauma? Based on speed and rapidity of use? A determined attacker employing a knife will do serious damage, and while their victim count may be smaller, the damage done may be much greater.

The only thing that a knife-wielding attacker has against him is range.
 
2012-12-17 11:21:55 AM  

Kit Fister: PunGent: Determined to miss the farking point, some people are.

Show me a modern army where the primary weapons are knives, not rifles, and I'll concede the point.

No, not missing the point, but you miss a major facet of the point.

A knife in a lot of cases will cause a greater, more damaging wound to the victim than a bullet. A bullet acts by simply puncturing a hole in the body, damaging tissue along its path. Bullets and knives, by profiles of the wound where a simple stabbing is performed, cause similar levels of tissue damage.

However, knives will cause greater amounts of internal laceration as during typical stabbings, the knife does not simply follow a straight path, they are often times inserted, moved around, and twisted, causing greater damage along the path of the wound.

Knives aren't used by armies or police due to one thing: Range. A gun will allow you to perform an amount of damage to an individual at a greater distance. However, knives, or in the case of wartime uses, swords have historically been quite effective on the battlefield, save for the ranged combat issue.

Further, a bullet is less reliable and controllable in the body than a knife, meaning that in cases where death is desired, a knife can be controlled to a much greater degree.

Looking at a mountain of cases involving stab-wounds, victims also experienced a greater amount of trauma done by slashing wounds rather than punctures, laying open large gashes in the body, leading to large, painful wounds and scarring well beyond the average gunshot wound.

It is generally considered that in the cases of stabbings, more intent and desire to inflict suffering on the victim is the goal.

Finally, every military in the western world, pretty much, continues to issue bayonets and train with them, and teach knife combat as an alternative to rifles or handguns. In fact, offensive use of the knife is fairly typical where close quarters, quiet death is desired.


I KNEW you were going to bring up bayonets, which is why I said PRIMARY weapons.

I know knives are dangerous. They're not, however, as dangerous as guns.

I think it's disingenous, at best, to claim that they are, after a gun massacre.
 
2012-12-17 03:40:56 PM  

Phins: OBBN: The kids have bb guns and have been taught gun safety from day one. The biggest problem I have with this tragic story is that while the mother purchases these guns legally, they were not secured. As with kombi, our three guns are secured in a gun safe. In addition each has a gun cable lock through the chamber, making it impossible to fire the weapon. The keys for the locks are kept hidden and the ammo is stored in a locked separate location.

Oh, okay, I understand now. We just trust all parents to give their children a thorough education on guns and gun safety and keep the guns locked up. That's what we have now and it doesn't seem to be working out so well. Your kids have been taught about guns and gun safety, that doesn't mean everyone has received that education.

In this case, the shooter's mother apparently did teach him about guns, took him to the shooting range, etc. And look how well that worked out.

This shooter was 20 years old. When your kids are 20 years old, will they have free access to their guns? I'm going to guess yes. What if one of your kids is 20 years old and asks you for the key because he wants to get in some target practice. I'm going to guess you'd hand him/her the keys because after all, you taught them about guns. And as we've seen, that's a fool-proof method for preventing a mass shooting.

Yeah, I know your kids are perfect and will never have any mental health issues so it's all perfectly safe.


Well, of course you were being sarcastic, but my kids, at this point in time at least, don't have any mental issues. Apparently the shooter DID. Which backs up my point even more, the mother should have made damn sure her guns were secure. When my kids are in their twenties I very well might let them have access to my guns if they want to go shooting. However, not a chance in hell if I was aware that they had any mental issues. See, it's called responsibility, unfortunately not everyone has it. I have to say it would be the same with my car. I wouldn't let my kids drive my car if I knew they had a mental condition that would prevent them from operating it safely.

Believe it or not, everyone that owns a gun isn't some gun nut. Guns aren't my life, hell, they aren't even my number one hobby. But, I have been shooting since I was a kid and enjoy it. You mention that my kids are taught gun safety, but not everyone kids are. I fail to see how that is my problem. I can't control what others teach or don't teach their children. Plus, all the gun safety lessons in the world won't do someone who is mentally off balanced from doing something. The real problem here is that this kid was mentally off. No one saw this or if they did, they didn't do anything about it. The shooter himself sure wasn't going to voluntarily seek help. As with gun looks and gun safes, access to mental health professionals is useless unless someone forces the mentally unstable person to get help. Gun locks and gun safes are useless unless they are used.
 
2012-12-18 07:13:15 PM  

PunGent: I know knives are dangerous. They're not, however, as dangerous as guns.


What.

No, really. What?

In close quarters combat, knives are FAR more lethal than a gun is in a trained hand.
 
2012-12-18 08:27:55 PM  

BronyMedic: PunGent: I know knives are dangerous. They're not, however, as dangerous as guns.

What.

No, really. What?

In close quarters combat, knives are FAR more lethal than a gun is in a trained hand.


More than arms reach away, and the gun gains the advantage. The statement as an absolute(as it was originally without any sort of modifiers[ie close quarters / training]), guns have a greater range, ergo, more dangerous.

You can kill a room full of people faster with a gun than with a knife because you don't have to move a single step.

Stupid argument is stupid.
 
2012-12-18 10:08:02 PM  

BronyMedic: in a trained hand.


and I doubt there was any training involved in the hands that held the knives that have decorated my body with 7 lovely stab wounds over the years. (3 in left thigh, 2 in chest , 1 left forearm, 1 right hip - all narrow misses to major organs/blood vessels, except the 2 in the chest that got the lung, prodded my heart)

I'm also going to be honest: even if I'd had a defence gun, and the training to use it, none of my attackers would be dead, and I'd still be very stabbed, bleeding, and on the ground in agony. It's just the way things happened. (blindsided)
 
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