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(Think Progress)   In one day, more people have signed a petition asking Obama to address gun control than Texans wanting to secede from the Union   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 1049
    More: Obvious, President Obama, unions, gun regulation, petitions  
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3077 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Dec 2012 at 8:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-16 02:27:30 AM
This is the price we as Americans pay for easy gun access. Freedom ain't cheap. To bad we can't have a rational discussion on the subject, it's a price I don't want to pay. More guns = more deaths.
 
2012-12-16 02:28:53 AM

tony41454: Meanwhile, while the liberals in America are frothing over guns . . . MAN STABS 22 CHILDREN AT CHINA PRIMARY SCHOOL.

According to the FBI, the #1 weapon used in violent crimes . . . is a baseball bat. Why is there no outcry to restrict baseball bat ownership? (Maybe because so many law-abiding citizens enjoy them safely for sport? Hmmm . . . .)

Why we have a 2nd amendment:
"In 1911 Turkey established gun control. Subsequently, from 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, deprived of the means to defend themselves, were rounded up and killed.

In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents were arrested and executed.

In 1938 Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945 over 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, mentally ill, union leaders, Catholics and others, unable to fire a shot in protest, were killed by the state.

In 1935 China established gun control. Between 1948 and 1952, over 20 million dissidents were rounded up and murdered by the Communists.

In 1956 Cambodia enshrined gun control. In just two years (1975-1977) over one million "educated" people (about 1/3 of the entire population!) were executed by the Reds.

In 1964 Guatemala locked in gun control. From 1964 to 1981 over 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and killed, unable to defend themselves.

In 1970 the Ugandan dictator decreed gun control. During the next nine years over 300,000 Christians were murdered.

Over 56 million people have died, unable to defend themselves, because of gun control in the last century alone."

Beginning to notice a pattern???


That you're a dishonest troll? Yes we noticed, thats why everyone, now including mr has you on ignore. So tired of the same cherry picked out of context lies from the same people who willfully ignore the actual positive, proven benefits of gun control across the world.
 
2012-12-16 02:29:14 AM
is the end goal for a person who does something like this to actually kill people or inflict lifelong pain that they've suffered? dumb question, i'm sure the lot of you will say. so be it. i'm still curious. because if they've been paying attention at all, they should know the media will only talk about what they've done until the next newsworthy thing happens, whether that is another killing or Kim Kardashian getting married. they can up the gore all they want but the result remains the same -- they'll never feel the validation or revenge they're seeking, they'll be dead. so what's the point? what's the goal? i mean, we know they're not really thinking at all because if they were thinking, they'd know what they're doing is pointless.

since it's getting worse, does that mean the possibility of it getting better is still a thing?
 
2012-12-16 02:29:16 AM

Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.

Unreasonable taxation intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected right is itself Unconstitutional.


Unreasonable, there is the rub.

A tax specifically intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected liberty to wealthy individuals would be unreasonable.



Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police. I saw the right of the People to keep and bear arms borne out in the footage yesterday of local cops going door to door.

That is all that the 2nd guarantees.

/owns 2A signed by Randy Weaver
 
2012-12-16 02:29:23 AM

Harold Beanbag: This is the price we as Americans pay for easy gun access. Freedom ain't cheap. To bad we can't have a rational discussion on the subject, it's a price I don't want to pay. More guns = more deaths.


Please explain why 5000 fewer total homicides were committed in 2011 than in 1973 despite more total firearms being owned. Please explain why rates of violent crime, including homicides committed with use of a firearm, have been decreasing relatively consistently since 1992.
 
2012-12-16 02:29:24 AM
Gun control won't solve the problem. The problem is societal. When I was in high school we had kids driving their trucks in with gun racks and 30.06s in the window. We had a shooting club. Every guy had a pocket knife. We never heard of any school shootings. Say what you will about taking prayer and God out of schools, but it had its place, it kept us in a frame of mind that there were standards that if you crossed them there would be consequences. It kept us in line (for the most part). You cannot "legislate" away crime or the potential for crime. Next time maybe it won't be a gun, it'll be a fertilizer bomb and vaporize half the school. The problem is society has lowered its norms, given in to all sorts of fringe groups, desensitized us to murders and carnage (thanks Hollywood!) and basically has said that there are no norms, no more standards. Anything goes! No wonder kids are doing anything they want; they no longer have any standards, any guidelines, any morals, any regard for consequences. We don't need gun laws, we standards, laws to live by, not laws on books or that you could be arrested for, but laws written on our hearts that prick our consequence and make us do the right thing.
 
2012-12-16 02:29:30 AM

justtray: graggor: violentsalvation: graggor: violentsalvation: graggor: Dimensio: violentsalvation: That's the problem with the whole discussion. We want to sit down to talk and see what we can do to keep our guns safe and locked up off the streets, or registered until transferred, and then registered again. And some of them would meet us there and we'd talk about the other societal issues that contribute to the problem and what could be done about it. And then the loudest most vocal groups among us start screaming shoulder things that go up on automatic assault pistols with high capacity clips or Obama is coming for our guns, and suddenly the whole conversation goes to an ugly stalemate until the next shooting where we start all over.

I disagree. Eventually one extreme -- I suspect that of civilian disarmament advocacy -- will gain a legislative advantage and impose legislation that will accomplish absolutely nothing beneficial though which might unreasonably restrict the rights of citizens.

It will be unconstitutional.

Was the AWB unconstitutional?

Well since it no longer exists it isnt anymore.

well...


lol...in the article...

As a candidate in 2008, Obama campaigned on permanent reinstatement of the expired assault weapons ban, and Attorney General Eric Holder in 2009 indicated that the administration would lobby for a bill. But that never materialized and the White House has largely avoided talking about it.

As I said he mentioned it on the campaign trail ( like conservative do about banning abortion) then when the time comes to do something they do nothing about it.

States have instituted AWBs. When it goes to the supreme court we will see how it holds up.

So far the supreme court has knocked down handgun bans...the civil court upheld an AWB...

personally its territory to avoid. 2nd amendment makes it pretty clear.

Once Obama changes the balance of power in the Supreme Court I hope you'll stick to that line of argument.


Well I just said the supreme knocked one down and the civil court held one up.

I personally think the founders intent is supremely clear. They just got done fighting a war against a state militia that did not allow the americans to be armed.

Personally I could care less if they banned guns. I dont own any but based on the nation and constitution I live under we cant do it. If we do we are just as bad as religious types who subvert the constitution by passing in god we trust on our money and other such shiat.
 
2012-12-16 02:29:30 AM

Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.


Really? You're solution is to penalize the non rich!? That's the dumbest proposal I've heard in this debate so far.
 
2012-12-16 02:30:31 AM

Insatiable Jesus: Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police.


Your assertion is demonstrably false.
 
2012-12-16 02:30:59 AM

graggor: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.

Unreasonable taxation intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected right is itself Unconstitutional.


Unreasonable, there is the rub.

A tax specifically intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected liberty to wealthy individuals would be unreasonable.

Absolutely.

If they passed a 50,000 tax to vote how would that sit?


A vote is not tangible. A weapon is. Tax it.
 
2012-12-16 02:31:25 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.

Really? You're solution is to penalize the non rich!? That's the dumbest proposal I've heard in this debate so far.


Insatiable Jesus evidently believes poor people to be deserving of less legal protection and rights than the rich.
 
2012-12-16 02:32:04 AM

Harold Beanbag: This is the price we as Americans pay for easy gun access. Freedom ain't cheap. To bad we can't have a rational discussion on the subject, it's a price I don't want to pay. More guns = more deaths.


1) have you paid that price?
2) is that really the solution? Because studies have shown that gun control itself is not the answer, in fact it's detrimental

Do you have facts to back your position?
 
2012-12-16 02:32:14 AM

Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police.

Your assertion is demonstrably false.



Pray demonstrate...
 
2012-12-16 02:32:33 AM

Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.

Unreasonable taxation intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected right is itself Unconstitutional.


Unreasonable, there is the rub.

A tax specifically intended to restrict exercise of a Constitutionally protected liberty to wealthy individuals would be unreasonable.


Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police. I saw the right of the People to keep and bear arms borne out in the footage yesterday of local cops going door to door.

That is all that the 2nd guarantees.

/owns 2A signed by Randy Weaver


So when THomas Jefferson wrote that line about the right to bear arms he wasnt thinking along his lines of overthrowing the government is good, he had just fought a war against a militia that was armed and did not allow Americans to be armed.

You think that had nothing to do with their intent at all? You think they were saying serve the government and you can be armed but if you dont serve the government you cant be armed. (when I phrase it that way it sounds pretty ominous doesnt it?)

I personally wouldnt want a right wing fundamentalist government with weapons while I had none telling me to pray to God and to go to church every day or die.

fark that shiat.
 
2012-12-16 02:33:11 AM

Dimensio: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Insatiable Jesus: The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves.

Tax the living piss out of private ownership, and yearly. Ongoing tax. Tax ammo.

Rich people don't shoot up malls and schools.

Really? You're solution is to penalize the non rich!? That's the dumbest proposal I've heard in this debate so far.

Insatiable Jesus evidently believes poor people to be deserving of less legal protection and rights than the rich.


When was the last time you took a field trip to a criminal court in your area? lol
 
2012-12-16 02:34:58 AM

Fart_Machine: Because an island nation that has a population 15x less than ours is a good comparison?


An island nation?

Motherfarker, until you got that ringer from Canada and Hawaii in the mix, we're basically the same size as you.
 
2012-12-16 02:35:08 AM

Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police.

Your assertion is demonstrably false.


Pray demonstrate...


Two Supreme Court of the United States rulings contradict your claim. Those rulings are law. Your claim, therefore, is contrary to established law and thus it is false.
 
2012-12-16 02:36:02 AM

Insatiable Jesus: When was the last time you took a field trip to a criminal court in your area? lol


What does that matter? How can you judge the problem based on the people you see physically? Are you a racist as well?
 
2012-12-16 02:37:32 AM

Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Your right to keep and bear arms exists in your right to belong to the military, state guard and state or local police.

Your assertion is demonstrably false.


Pray demonstrate...

Two Supreme Court of the United States rulings contradict your claim. Those rulings are law. Your claim, therefore, is contrary to established law and thus it is false.


Right. the handgun ban was ruled unconstitutional.

Until they repeal the 2nd amendment we are just playing games.

It is pretty clear what the intent was of men who had just finished a war against a militia of their controlling government which did not allow their citizens to own guns unless they joined the state militia to get armed....

this logic may not stand today but it is what was intended and until someone can repeal it well fark it its in stone.
 
2012-12-16 02:38:58 AM
The cost to society in policing your Guns Gone Wild culture is enormous. Friday was different for me, as a gun enthusiast.
 
2012-12-16 02:39:59 AM
So out of 315 million people in the US, 1 takes a gun to kill 27. Therefore the other 314, 900,000+ should not be allowed to have guns. That makes sense.

Its a horrible situation but guns aren't the problem, people are.I'm so tired of listening to people blaming guns or video games. They're too self absorbed to realize that humans are the problem. And then try to fix the problem by jumping on their high horse and preaching their own misguided blather.
 
2012-12-16 02:40:13 AM

Insatiable Jesus: The cost to society in policing your Guns Gone Wild culture is enormous. Friday was different for me, as a gun enthusiast.


Your previous taxation proposal remains Unconstitutional.
 
2012-12-16 02:40:49 AM

graggor: It is pretty clear what the intent was of men who had just finished a war against a militia of their controlling government which did not allow their citizens to own guns unless they joined the state militia to get armed....


The redcoats were not a militia. If you don't even know that little, how can you be trusted with anything?
 
2012-12-16 02:41:05 AM

graggor: It is pretty clear what the intent was of men who had just finished a war against a militia of their controlling government which did not allow their citizens to own guns unless they joined the state militia to get armed....


I heard that, just so you know.
 
2012-12-16 02:43:02 AM

jigsawspartan: They're too self absorbed to realize that humans are the problem.


Which ones do you want to get rid of first? The first-graders?
 
2012-12-16 02:43:10 AM
Fubini

tony41454: According to the FBI, the #1 weapon used in violent crimes . . . is a baseball bat. Why is there no outcry to restrict baseball bat ownership? (Maybe because so many law-abiding citizens enjoy them safely for sport?

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific citation for that? It's a very interesting factiod.


Actually, I might have been wrong on that. I was quoting someone else and when I followed their links, it didn't quite seem to add up.

Link
 
2012-12-16 02:44:58 AM

tony41454: Fubini

tony41454: According to the FBI, the #1 weapon used in violent crimes . . . is a baseball bat. Why is there no outcry to restrict baseball bat ownership? (Maybe because so many law-abiding citizens enjoy them safely for sport?

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific citation for that? It's a very interesting factiod.

Actually, I might have been wrong on that. I was quoting someone else and when I followed their links, it didn't quite seem to add up.

Link


Statistics regarding murder weapons provide no information regarding common weapons used in all violent crimes.
 
2012-12-16 02:45:54 AM

tony41454: Fubini

tony41454: According to the FBI, the #1 weapon used in violent crimes . . . is a baseball bat. Why is there no outcry to restrict baseball bat ownership? (Maybe because so many law-abiding citizens enjoy them safely for sport?

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific citation for that? It's a very interesting factiod.

Actually, I might have been wrong on that. I was quoting someone else and when I followed their links, it didn't quite seem to add up.

Link


Yeah, you're better off sticking with the Chinese knife guy. That way you know what you're talking about.
 
2012-12-16 02:47:39 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: graggor: It is pretty clear what the intent was of men who had just finished a war against a militia of their controlling government which did not allow their citizens to own guns unless they joined the state militia to get armed....

The redcoats were not a militia. If you don't even know that little, how can you be trusted with anything?


Wow. Basically they were german hessians and rich aristocrats thrown together.

might as well be a militia compared to the regular army the red coats were in europe.

Either way....given that we just ofught a war with our militia and our government would continue to need one and considering Jefferson believed in the overthrow of government as a good thing connecting the dots should not be this difficult.
 
2012-12-16 02:48:23 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: jigsawspartan: They're too self absorbed to realize that humans are the problem.

Which ones do you want to get rid of first? The first-graders?


Ah so because I don't support gun control I must be a mass murderer!

That's reasonable.
 
2012-12-16 02:52:35 AM

Triumph: So there are more stupid people in the entire U.S. than there are stupid people in the state of Texas?


This. Stupid headline, stupid comparison.
 
2012-12-16 02:52:39 AM
Barney Fife exercises your 2A right, get used to it. Grow up. You're like children given a toy for Xmas, "ooooh Daddy, can I keep it forever and ever?" and Dad says sure. Then you put out the eye of the dog, your mother and pop your fathers only remaining testicle. And when mom and dad try to take it away, you ignore the carnage, stamp your feet and scream, "But you said I could have it!"
 
2012-12-16 02:53:52 AM

Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: The cost to society in policing your Guns Gone Wild culture is enormous. Friday was different for me, as a gun enthusiast.

Your previous taxation proposal remains Unconstitutional.


And yet, now, on the table.
 
2012-12-16 02:54:44 AM

tony41454: Gun control won't solve the problem. The problem is societal. When I was in high school we had kids driving their trucks in with gun racks and 30.06s in the window. We had a shooting club. Every guy had a pocket knife. We never heard of any school shootings. Say what you will about taking prayer and God out of schools, but it had its place, it kept us in a frame of mind that there were standards that if you crossed them there would be consequences. It kept us in line (for the most part). You cannot "legislate" away crime or the potential for crime. Next time maybe it won't be a gun, it'll be a fertilizer bomb and vaporize half the school. The problem is society has lowered its norms, given in to all sorts of fringe groups, desensitized us to murders and carnage (thanks Hollywood!) and basically has said that there are no norms, no more standards. Anything goes! No wonder kids are doing anything they want; they no longer have any standards, any guidelines, any morals, any regard for consequences. We don't need gun laws, we standards, laws to live by, not laws on books or that you could be arrested for, but laws written on our hearts that prick our consequence and make us do the right thing.


This is one of those "Leave it to Beaver" stories. We live in a country of over 300 million individual stories living in myriads of towns and cities with all their own stories both large and small, and life has been changing rapidly for everyone for the last several centuries. All through this time, maniacs have done bad things. Out of 300 million plus stories, there is going to be too many maniacs who will act out, and their stories are magnified by the intimacy and read of information technology.

It just happens that in the US, the gun business is extraordinarily efficient and profitable, and we happen to have wide availability and easy ownership of extremely efficient portable, and efficient human killing devices.

What puzzles me is why do gun enthusiasts not get out in front of these periodic outrages, and do more to make gun safety, ownership, and limitations more a realistic compromise with the larger electorate on what is reasonable and responsible. I don't think you can stop the maniacs, but that should not be the goal of the larger conversation of what a civilized society needs for basic self protection,

This is a compromise that I am not sure gun organizations will support because of the business impact, not because of some Second Amendment religion about guns. This is fundamentally about money.
 
2012-12-16 02:55:31 AM

Insatiable Jesus: Barney Fife exercises your 2A right, get used to it. Grow up. You're like children given a toy for Xmas, "ooooh Daddy, can I keep it forever and ever?" and Dad says sure. Then you put out the eye of the dog, your mother and pop your fathers only remaining testicle. And when mom and dad try to take it away, you ignore the carnage, stamp your feet and scream, "But you said I could have it!"


Your proposed taxation remains Unconstitutional. You do not appear to be presenting anything resembling an argument, or at least an argument that relates to reality.
 
2012-12-16 02:57:26 AM

Harry_Seldon: What puzzles me is why do gun enthusiasts not get out in front of these periodic outrages, and do more to make gun safety, ownership, and limitations more a realistic compromise with the larger electorate on what is reasonable and responsible. I don't think you can stop the maniacs, but that should not be the goal of the larger conversation of what a civilized society needs for basic self protection,


The most vocal firearm rights advocacy organizations, and their spokespersons, are "tea party" conservatives or neoconservatives whose grasp on reality is as tenuous as is that of ardent firearm control advocacy organizations and spokespersons.
 
2012-12-16 02:57:30 AM

BravadoGT: kmmontandon: themindiswatching: What if Obama submits a bill to Congress next month that


It doesn't matter how you finish this sentence, the Republican answer is "no."

It's because Republicans already know that adding more laws won't stop the killing. Once someone decides to go kill a school full of children, they're going to find a way. If they cant' get a hold of guns, they'll bring swords or machetes or axes; they'll bring acid, or build pipe bombs and car bombs. Point is--further restricting the tool isn't going to correct the underlying condition--it's nothing more that a band-aid when the body needs an antibiotic.


Hi troll, how you doing tonight? Meh, I don't actually care. Moving on.

Countries like the UK, France, Norway, etc. have stricter gun control laws and much more thorough pre-purchase checks and registration requirements than the US. As a result, they have far lower gun ownership than the US.

Gun deaths, and homicides in general, in these countries are orders of magnitude lower than in the US, far, FAR, FAAAAAAAAAAAR out of proportion with the difference in population size.

Now, you say that laws can't stop the killing. So what is your explanation for the difference? Are you saying that Americans are born homicidal maniacs, and are inherently unstable and violent? Are Europeans just better people than us?

HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

Or perhaps you're an idiot, and gun laws actually work. You decide.
 
2012-12-16 02:57:31 AM

Dimensio: Insatiable Jesus: Barney Fife exercises your 2A right, get used to it. Grow up. You're like children given a toy for Xmas, "ooooh Daddy, can I keep it forever and ever?" and Dad says sure. Then you put out the eye of the dog, your mother and pop your fathers only remaining testicle. And when mom and dad try to take it away, you ignore the carnage, stamp your feet and scream, "But you said I could have it!"

Your proposed taxation remains Unconstitutional. You do not appear to be presenting anything resembling an argument, or at least an argument that relates to reality.


Reality is that The People are done with 2A freaks. Enjoy
 
2012-12-16 02:58:18 AM
This is where I got it. VIOLENT crime, not MURDER.

"FBI Statistical Conclusions: 87.3% of very serious rape, robbery and assault during this ten year period had NOTHING whatsoever to do with firearms. If there were NO FIREARMS available to criminals, common sense tells us that most of the 12.7% that does involve firearms would shift over to knives or other non-firearm weapons with no real change in the number of victims. Common sense and real world experience also tells us that if criminals never had to worry about their intended victims being armed because of firearms bans, the rates of rape, robbery and assault would be much higher, as they are in gun-ban cities. Copyright 2002 © P.G.R.A"
 
2012-12-16 02:58:42 AM

jigsawspartan: So out of 315 million people in the US, 1 takes a gun to kill 27. Therefore the other 314, 900,000+ should not be allowed to have guns. That makes sense.

Its a horrible situation but guns aren't the problem, people are.I'm so tired of listening to people blaming guns or video games. They're too self absorbed to realize that humans are the problem. And then try to fix the problem by jumping on their high horse and preaching their own misguided blather.


OK, so we know that humans are the problem. So what is the solution? Arm everyone, even though you just admitted that it's people who are the problem so we'd basically be arming the problems. Do nothing at all because people are going to do stupid things and we can't stop them? I'm not saying either of these are your solutions, these are just two very popular ones it seems.

But really, you aren't telling us anything we don't already know. Of course it takes a person to pull the trigger. So do you have any helpful insights on what should be done?
 
2012-12-16 02:59:09 AM

Emposter: Countries like the UK, France, Norway, etc. have stricter gun control laws and much more thorough pre-purchase checks and registration requirements than the US.

As a result, they have far lower gun ownership than the US.Gun deaths, and homicides in general, in these countries are orders of magnitude lower than in the US, far, FAR, FAAAAAAAAAAAR out of proportion with the difference in population size.


I am certain, then, that you will be able to demonstrate that the homicide rates of these nations were similar to (or greater than) that of the United States prior to their imposing of stringent firearm regulations.
 
2012-12-16 02:59:45 AM

graggor: ight as well be a militia compared to the regular army the red coats were in europe.


first. this is the dumbest response i've ever seen on fark, which says a lot, second

graggor: given that we just ofught a war with our militia and our government would continue to need one and considering Jefferson believed in the overthrow of government as a good thing connecting the dots should not be this difficult.


exactly what are you drinking? This is the most incoherent sentence I've seen in some time.
 
2012-12-16 03:00:30 AM
Insatiable Jesus
"The People get to exercise their right to keep and bear arms in the modern world through their state police forces, guards and reserves."
"A vote is not tangible. A weapon is. Tax it."


Some old guys disagree with your sentiments....

Patrick Henry, 1788:
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined"

Alexander Hamilton, 1788:
"If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens"

St. George Tucker, early American constitutional theorist, circa 1803:
"Further, Tucker criticized the English Bill of Rights for limiting gun ownership to the very wealthy, leaving the populace effectively disarmed, and expressed the hope that Americans 'never cease to regard the right of keeping and bearing arms as the surest pledge of their liberty.'"

Joseph Story, 1833:
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them"

Lots about personal citizens, not just militias...
 
2012-12-16 03:02:32 AM
Emposter

BravadoGT: kmmontandon: themindiswatching: What if Obama submits a bill to Congress next month that


It doesn't matter how you finish this sentence, the Republican answer is "no."

It's because Republicans already know that adding more laws won't stop the killing. Once someone decides to go kill a school full of children, they're going to find a way. If they cant' get a hold of guns, they'll bring swords or machetes or axes; they'll bring acid, or build pipe bombs and car bombs. Point is--further restricting the tool isn't going to correct the underlying condition--it's nothing more that a band-aid when the body needs an antibiotic.

Hi troll, how you doing tonight? Meh, I don't actually care. Moving on.

Countries like the UK, France, Norway, etc. have stricter gun control laws and much more thorough pre-purchase checks and registration requirements than the US. As a result, they have far lower gun ownership than the US.

Gun deaths, and homicides in general, in these countries are orders of magnitude lower than in the US, far, FAR, FAAAAAAAAAAAR out of proportion with the difference in population size.

Now, you say that laws can't stop the killing. So what is your explanation for the difference? Are you saying that Americans are born homicidal maniacs, and are inherently unstable and violent? Are Europeans just better people than us?

HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

Or perhaps you're an idiot, and gun laws actually work. You decide.


Again the answer is societal. Some cultures just have less violence. They are "molded" that way from birth by the values and morals of that society.Guns are EVERYWHERE in Sweden (I believe everyone is required to own one) and in Israel, yet you don't see school shootings on this par. If America would totally ban guns, the murder rate more than likely would drop slightly then go up again. This society has let the proverbial Pandora's box open and until we close it, this stuff will continue to happen.
 
2012-12-16 03:02:47 AM
Hyperbole much?

Are you saying we should refuse to do anything to try save lives and make sure crazy and irresponsible people don't have guns because it would be an inconvenience to gun owners or prospective gun owners?

It's not about taking away the right to own a gun, it's about making sure people who are fit to own them are still able to and only they are the ones with access. Thousands of people a year are dying to guns, mostly family members and friends, with a large percentage of them being wives and girlfriends. I couldn't care less if people want semi-auto weapons, heck, I've gone shooting and fired them myself before. I don't even want to put magazine size restrictions or maybe even ammo total caps as restrictions up.

My suggestions are about making sure nuts and idiots with no sense of responsibility don't use them and don't access them. Lots of people die to guns. No, it's not up quite in the realm of vehicle fatalities at 32,367 in 2011 but in 2009 there were 6,452 people murdered with guns. Both cars and guns are undeniably dangerous when used incorrectly. There should be assurances that responsible people are the only ones that have access. This is about putting up some checkpoints to make sure gun ownership is done by informed, responsible and well prepared people.

You know, the military doesn't typically just let soldiers walk around on post wielding their weapons, at least not on normal military bases. They're not issued to them to use daily unless it relates to their job, like MPs. In fact, soldiers can get into a lot of trouble for bringing personal firearms on base. Weapons issued to soldiers are stored securely, but the soldier is still responsible for its care while it's issued to them.

Requiring people to store their weapons securely, and show proof that they're being responsible owners seems like a reasonable request that doesn't really infringe on the right to own a gun as much as it verifies the fitness of the person to own it. We verify the capability of people to use many other items safely.

Current checks are apparently not thorough enough. Under my suggestion whoever qualifies to own a weapon can still certainly own one or many, but people who are unstable, reckless or irresponsible should not own them and should not have access to them. People that leave their weapons laying about particularly if they're loaded and unlocked are unfit to be in possession of them.

People that don't secure their weapons allow murders, suicides and accidents to happen because they are negligent or unstable owners. They're giving the option for their suicidal family member or friend to easily find it and end themselves. A young curious child can accidentally shoot themselves or their family members or friends. It's easy, and from the above statistics, far too common for a husband or boyfriend to shoot his wife or girlfriend. If the man in Connecticut's mother secured her weapons as per my suggestions earlier, her unstable son wouldn't have been able to take guns to a school and shoot twenty first graders and six others, and she could still use her weapons pretty much whenever she wanted to.

A couple of reasons I added the clause requiring evidence of secure storage to buy ammo is so that it be more challenging to fill the magazines of illegally obtained firearms if there was a requirement to show proof of secure storage. It also helps ensure existing gun owners commit to securely storing their weapons. This also sort of creates a de facto need to store ammo behind the counter so that people can't just go into a store and steal ammo right off of the counter to arm their illegal weapons. There's no 100% fix to the black market though. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't own guns. I'm suggesting that those proven responsible should be the ones with legal access.
 
2012-12-16 03:03:21 AM

tony41454: Copyright 2002 © P.G.R.A


Professional Gun Retailers Association.
 
2012-12-16 03:04:35 AM

tony41454: Gun control won't solve the problem. The problem is societal. When I was in high school we had kids driving their trucks in with gun racks and 30.06s in the window. We had a shooting club. Every guy had a pocket knife. We never heard of any school shootings. Say what you will about taking prayer and God out of schools, but it had its place, it kept us in a frame of mind that there were standards that if you crossed them there would be consequences. It kept us in line (for the most part). You cannot "legislate" away crime or the potential for crime. Next time maybe it won't be a gun, it'll be a fertilizer bomb and vaporize half the school. The problem is society has lowered its norms, given in to all sorts of fringe groups, desensitized us to murders and carnage (thanks Hollywood!) and basically has said that there are no norms, no more standards. Anything goes! No wonder kids are doing anything they want; they no longer have any standards, any guidelines, any morals, any regard for consequences. We don't need gun laws, we standards, laws to live by, not laws on books or that you could be arrested for, but laws written on our hearts that prick our consequence and make us do the right thing.



If the only thing keeping you from shooting up a school is the fear of eternal damnation, please seek psychiatric help.
 
2012-12-16 03:04:51 AM

keithgabryelski: It is time we had an honest and rational discussion of guns in the United States of America.



sign here


Traitor.
 
2012-12-16 03:05:17 AM

trackstr777: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined"


Then where is that? Where are you 2Aers opposing federal expansionism today? You don't attack what you claim is the enemy, you only shoot up a mall or a school her and there.
 
2012-12-16 03:07:23 AM

trackstr777: Lots about personal citizens, not just militias...


Militias are formed of citizens. Otherwise I frankly love your posts.
 
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