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(Some Guy)   Do you use picture passwords in WIndows 8? Hope you cleaned your screen   (uncoveror.com) divider line 87
    More: Scary, password cracking, touch screens  
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12640 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Dec 2012 at 6:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



87 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-12-14 05:06:03 PM
Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?
 
2012-12-14 05:10:13 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?


I thought that was the whole idea, but I guess not. Any of the slide password type things are susceptible to this. I remember laughing at a friend who had one of the dots one that we could easily see the pattern on.
 
2012-12-14 05:44:55 PM
I wont use anything but a random generated character/number password until we get some honest to god good iris scanning software for security.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-14 05:55:53 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?


They don't, but they do on Android, and this is a re-cycled story about Android pattern locking.
 
2012-12-14 05:56:32 PM
Windows users are all 'let's draw a picture on the screen - boop-be-boop' while Mac users are all 'lets enter our complex 20 character passwords that rhyme with orange and contain uppercase, lowecase, greek, swahili and roman numerals'
 
2012-12-14 06:02:34 PM
Watching the commercials for that picture password jazz, I had a hunch that something like that would come into play.
 
2012-12-14 06:09:15 PM

vpb: Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?

They don't, but they do on Android, and this is a re-cycled story about Android pattern locking.


Which in defense of it, just how far can you move the stuff on a 4" phone screen? On top of that, who doesn't wipe off their screen and just leaves it as a smudge fest? I'm guessing the exact same people that leave post it notes with their passwords stuck to the sides of their monitors.
 
2012-12-14 06:11:44 PM

vpb: Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?

They don't, but they do on Android, and this is a re-cycled story about Android pattern locking.


Yes, but any time someone can take a swing at Microsoft, well, there will be someone stepping up with a hyperbole-laden story.
 
2012-12-14 06:16:50 PM
this is discussed in the design blog
 
2012-12-14 06:18:00 PM
So, we needed a whole article to say, "Hey, remember what we said about pattern locks in phones? Yeah, that, but in Windows 8."

Whew! Tell the editor I'm done for the day.
 
2012-12-14 06:19:04 PM
this is the exact reason I wipe off my tablet after use and my phone before I set it down or hand it to someone to hold. I just use one of thoes micro fiber cloths for cleaning glasses. It has the added bonus of keeping my touch screen stuff looking better and newer then all my other tech crap.
 
2012-12-14 06:20:51 PM
Can't you just use your mouse?
 
2012-12-14 06:24:26 PM

Free Radical: Can't you just use your mouse?


picture password was designed for touch devices. i'm not sure if mouse is supported. never cared to look.
 
2012-12-14 06:25:27 PM
What does Wisconsin have to do with this?
 
2012-12-14 06:33:19 PM
I use a windows 8 phone. He is correct it leaves residue behind.

I have never signed in just to not do anything. So... additional residue is left behind after use. So your trail isnt your password. Article is retarded.
 
2012-12-14 06:39:30 PM

Kazan: this is discussed in the design blog


Thank you.

ArcadianRefugee: So, we needed a whole article to say, "Hey, remember what we said about pattern locks in phones? Yeah, that, but in Windows 8."


I missed that discussion (thank fully). I use the pattern lock screen on Android and am not at all worried. If I am opening the screen I will normally be doing other things on it which will smudge the pattern enough to be un-recognizable. Plus the screen protector I have does a fairly good job of preventing the marks in the first place. Anyone who really wants to get in will, but for someone casually looking at it they won't see anything.

The picture login would be nice though and certainly more secure since it uses a use supplied picture with nearly infinite possibilities rather than the set 9 dots. Just set it so that at least part of the password goes through the most common places you touch the screen for other reasons (i.e. where your most common apps are located and where you swipe to get to notifications) to make sure it gets smudged often.
 
2012-12-14 06:41:02 PM
Yeah, about two minutes after I locked the smart phone with that drawing thing, I realized all you had to do was look at the smudges on the glass.
 
2012-12-14 06:43:14 PM
Isn't this only really a problem if your computer/tablet/phone gets stolen?
 
2012-12-14 06:49:23 PM
I want that 'three picture' code lock thing from "Johnny Mnemonic" to be real.

(not for anything important)
 
2012-12-14 06:54:59 PM
So picture passwords are just as safe as any Windows password, i.e. not at all?
 
2012-12-14 06:59:11 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?


I was thinking the same thing. Scale the image downward and move it around the screen field. Flip it horizontally, vertically, skew it or rotate it a random number of degrees.

You might have a more limited number of options with small screens such as smartphones and smartcameras, but tablets, palmtops, laptops and desktops should have enough room to get creative.
 
2012-12-14 06:59:28 PM
After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.
 
2012-12-14 07:02:23 PM

Niveras: After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.


Left to right---> clock wise
 
2012-12-14 07:04:59 PM
well, its not like anyone will be using windows 8
 
2012-12-14 07:07:34 PM
Picture passwords are for idiots. I always use 1-2-3-4-5
 
2012-12-14 07:09:54 PM

titwrench: Niveras: After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.

Left to right---> clock wise


Maybe I'm misinterpreting his instructions, but when I draw a circle - for example, a zero or the letter O, I start at 12, move left to 9, down to 6, right to 3, up to 12. That is definitely counter clockwise. (I am right handed.) Maybe I'm a total farking freak and everyone else draws circles clockwise, starting at 12 to 3 to 6 to 9 to 12, and I've just never noticed before.

"Left to right" does not define sufficient dimensions to be described as clockwise or not.
 
2012-12-14 07:14:23 PM

titwrench: Niveras: After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.

Left to right---> clock wise


I was ready to post the same thing, but I think what he's trying to say is "from the 12:00 position, you move rightward to go clockwise." "Left to right" is being used as an awkward synonym for "rightward."
 
2012-12-14 07:21:24 PM
My roommate had this problem with her phone's "pattern unlock."

No longer, though, once I unlocked the phone for them.
 
2012-12-14 07:22:19 PM

Uzzah: titwrench: Niveras: After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.

Left to right---> clock wise

I was ready to post the same thing, but I think what he's trying to say is "from the 12:00 position, you move rightward to go clockwise." "Left to right" is being used as an awkward synonym for "rightward."


Yup.
 
2012-12-14 07:22:22 PM
Oh, I see that the pattern lock thing was covered about a trillion times already. Very well, then.
 
2012-12-14 07:23:09 PM

cman: I wont use anything but a random generated character/number password until we get some honest to god good iris scanning software for security.


www.pinballrebel.com

/biometrics have their own problems
 
2012-12-14 07:24:28 PM

Niveras: titwrench: Niveras: After all, if you start making a circle at the top and move left to right, that is clockwise.

Isn't that counter-clockwise? Starting at the top and moving left would count down from 12.

Left to right---> clock wise

Maybe I'm misinterpreting his instructions, but when I draw a circle - for example, a zero or the letter O, I start at 12, move left to 9, down to 6, right to 3, up to 12. That is definitely counter clockwise. (I am right handed.) Maybe I'm a total farking freak and everyone else draws circles clockwise, starting at 12 to 3 to 6 to 9 to 12, and I've just never noticed before.

"Left to right" does not define sufficient dimensions to be described as clockwise or not.


I write my Os clockwise and my zeros counter clockwise. I don't know why.
 
2012-12-14 07:24:38 PM

Imperious Rex!: Isn't this only really a problem if your computer/tablet/phone gets stolen?


Because that never happens. Ever.

/during the normal course of the year - we expect at least 10% of mobile devices to get lost, stolen, or stolen in a divorce
//that number is inching upwards as devices get smaller
 
2012-12-14 07:26:52 PM
"hacked"

Tracing smudges is not hacking..
 
2012-12-14 07:32:34 PM

gingerjet: Imperious Rex!: Isn't this only really a problem if your computer/tablet/phone gets stolen?

Because that never happens. Ever.

/during the normal course of the year - we expect at least 10% of mobile devices to get lost, stolen, or stolen in a divorce
//that number is inching upwards as devices get smaller


Of course it happens, that's not my point. My point is that this article seems like it is trying to use this new method of logging into your device as a OMGPANIC scenario, when the only time it'll come into play is when you no longer have control over your device, at which point the chance of it being hacked will be the same regardless of whether or not you use this method or not.

Also, as others have said, I highly doubt that if you're using a touch screen device the only time you are going to use swiping motions on the screen is when you log in.
 
2012-12-14 07:33:00 PM
Aion uses what I consider to be a pretty clever anti-hacking password methodology in their game. You have to set a 6+ digit password for each character. You can't type it in, you have to click the numbers in your traditional numpad layout. But here's the kicker, the numbers are randomly arranged. Seems pretty solid to me.
 
2012-12-14 07:37:21 PM
krui.fm
petesmedia.com
www.ret-monitor.com
www.501neg.com
 
2012-12-14 07:42:46 PM

Imperious Rex!: Of course it happens, that's not my point. My point is that this article seems like it is trying to use this new method of logging into your device as a OMGPANIC scenario, when the only time it'll come into play is when you no longer have control over your device, at which point the chance of it being hacked will be the same regardless of whether or not you use this method or not.

Also, as others have said, I highly doubt that if you're using a touch screen device the only time you are going to use swiping motions on the screen is when you log in.


Ok - lets ignore the stolen device issue then. Who else has access to your computer or device? Don't have roommates, a spouse, co-workers, or cleaning people? Ever leave your phone on the kitchen counter? Do you lock it in a safe when you leave? Its a stupid way to implement this type of security for a variety of reasons. And I think you over estimate how many people will use touch screen on a desktop or laptop.
 
2012-12-14 07:46:40 PM
If you're that paranoid about having people in your own home accessing your devices, then you should - and probably do - keep it with you or near you at all times. If you're living with roommates then you probably have the ability to lock your own door.

If you're really in that sort of situation where you are always fearful of having people near you steal your stuff, then maybe you should look into a different living arrangement.

I've never left any of my devices alone in an environment where I feared they would be stolen or manipulated without my consent, and I don't have to worry about my wife 'hacking' into my tablet since we share it.
 
2012-12-14 07:47:00 PM

Honest Bender: Aion uses what I consider to be a pretty clever anti-hacking password methodology in their game. You have to set a 6+ digit password for each character. You can't type it in, you have to click the numbers in your traditional numpad layout. But here's the kicker, the numbers are randomly arranged. Seems pretty solid to me.


Not bad. I'm wondering if doing that with pictures instead of numbers would work as well - if your password was "horse", "correct", "battery", "staple" for example (yes, King Something, I see what you did there).
 
2012-12-14 07:48:03 PM
I should add an addendum for the work place - if you are working on a device that you leave in the office, then you shouldn't have personal stuff on it that you'd be concerned about if people were to indeed tamper with it.
 
2012-12-14 07:52:07 PM
Hmm... and he tells the sign-in smudges from the rest of the smudges how? And knows the order and gesture movement how? And he somehow found this same capability difficult from the smudges on a keyboard?

So he's got a special light that just shows touches for password but can't find those touches-for-password on a keyboard. This special light also tells him the direction of gestures and their order, but can't tell the order of keys pressed on a keyboard (and there is no gesture on a keyboard).

I call BS.
 
2012-12-14 08:03:22 PM
Don't want to learn ANY oils on your screen? Get a pair of Isotoner Smartouch gloves.
The conductive fingertips will also allow you to keep your hands warm in inclement weather.

www.smartouchgloves.com

/bought a pair for my fiancee
//she loves em
 
2012-12-14 08:08:33 PM
This is only a problem if you only touch your screen for the password. You run your fingers over the whole damn screen. Mine looks like a smudgefest and there's no way you could separate the password swipes from the drag menu swipes or the scrolling website swipes.
 
2012-12-14 08:08:37 PM
blah allergy headache is kicking my ass today.

"Don't want to learn leave"
 
2012-12-14 08:09:22 PM

King Something: [krui.fm image 450x730]
[petesmedia.com image 600x600]
[www.ret-monitor.com image 450x326]
[www.501neg.com image 531x400]


I see what you did there and no longer have to post the comic.

I am leaving this thread entirely satisfied. Thank you good sir!
 
2012-12-14 08:17:51 PM

Imperious Rex!: If you're that paranoid about having people in your own home accessing your devices, then you should - and probably do - keep it with you or near you at all times. If you're living with roommates then you probably have the ability to lock your own door.

If you're really in that sort of situation where you are always fearful of having people near you steal your stuff, then maybe you should look into a different living arrangement.

I've never left any of my devices alone in an environment where I feared they would be stolen or manipulated without my consent, and I don't have to worry about my wife 'hacking' into my tablet since we share it.



Yeah, among my family (ex-wife, kids, mother) I've always been a huge proponent of everyone having their own sign-ins to our various computing devices and keeping the damned things password protected. Not that anyone has reasons to be suspicious of anyone, but just in that it's good computing habits to have. That, and I don't like to share my desktop and files.
 
2012-12-14 08:27:59 PM

Tenatra: Don't want to learn ANY oils on your screen? Get a pair of Isotoner Smartouch gloves.
The conductive fingertips will also allow you to keep your hands warm in inclement weather.

[www.smartouchgloves.com image 716x469]

/bought a pair for my fiancee
//she loves em


Hey, thanks! I was just thinking about gloves like these this morning with cold finally hitting Chicago. Pretty good prices on Amazon too.
 
2012-12-14 08:36:25 PM
This is a problem on all touch OS's
/Happened on iOS
//Happened on Android
 
2012-12-14 08:50:56 PM
Common sense is hacking now?
 
2012-12-14 09:19:57 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: This is a problem on all touch OS's
/Happened on iOS
//Happened on Android


It is a serious bug in Windows 8 since everybody hates Micro$oft. WIN 8 SUCKS BALLZ.

//do not look at your iPhone or Android phone, rules do not apply
 
2012-12-14 10:03:13 PM
Why would someone want to break into Windows 8? That's like intentionally moving to Detroit.
 
2012-12-14 10:04:08 PM
So, it's a non-issue on phones because you touch your phone all the time and are going to smudge way more than the password area. It's a non-issue on Win8 devices because the picture moves each time putting the smudge in a different place. Glad we got that cleared up.
 
2012-12-14 10:04:10 PM

King Something: [krui.fm image 450x730]
[petesmedia.com image 600x600]
[www.ret-monitor.com image 450x326]
[www.501neg.com image 531x400]


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

I refute you thus.
 
2012-12-14 10:15:21 PM

DeathByGeekSquad: Common sense is hacking now?


Yes, as proven by the asinine lifehacker website
 
2012-12-14 10:31:28 PM
Once I read this, it immediately became completely glaringly obvious. Hell, a great example: For the longest time, my friend's cell phone was kept by the local Best Buy as an example. Before they had the capacitive screens, she had worn down her touch screen to the point that there were thirty or so little scratch patches in a perfect QWERTY pattern. They used it to show people what happened if you didn't buy the screen protectors.
 
2012-12-14 10:45:02 PM
What's funny about this: my computer guy told me not to use the picture password for my new Windows 8 for just this reason..

/I really do need to find an excuse to give him a 'slurpee'
 
2012-12-14 10:49:27 PM
Fingerprint reader/???
 
2012-12-14 10:52:45 PM
Use a little piece of sponge to unlock your screen(or a stylus[made with sponge, like mine?]). Wash/replace it often.
 
2012-12-14 10:53:46 PM

redly1: Fingerprint reader/???


my HP laptop has the fingerprint reader on it and I have to tell ya I like it, BUT you have to be almost exact in your swipe..
 
2012-12-14 11:09:53 PM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Picture passwords are for idiots. I always use 1-2-3-4-5


I have the same combination on my luggage!
 
2012-12-14 11:18:50 PM

Kazahmish: redly1: Fingerprint reader/???

my HP laptop has the fingerprint reader on it and I have to tell ya I like it, BUT you have to be almost exact in your swipe..


I've had a few, and here are my tips for that.

1) Figure out your natural swipe angle If you swipe a little bit skewed, and the picture isn't skewed, it'll kick you out.
2) When you're making the fingerprint, roll your finger differently each time. Not a lot, but to the point where it gets a picture of most of the bottom of your finger.

/First or second swipe
 
2012-12-14 11:47:12 PM
I can't stand when people touch my monitors. Drives me nuts to have nasty fingerprints all over them. Now Microsoft wants me to do it on purpose?

fark that noise.
 
2012-12-15 12:18:29 AM
Like the Cheetos stains on the keyboard weren't a dead giveaway already.
 
2012-12-15 12:21:30 AM
This just in, water is wet.
 
2012-12-15 12:22:02 AM

pudding7: I can't stand when people touch my monitors. Drives me nuts to have nasty fingerprints all over them. Now Microsoft wants me to do it on purpose?

fark that noise.


My friend has a habit of tapping the damn monitor with his farking fingernails
 
2012-12-15 12:28:55 AM
Read this article six years ago... so old.

They're just trying to find ways to make you wear out the touch screen so you have to buy another unit.
 
2012-12-15 12:29:25 AM

styckx: "hacked"

Tracing smudges is not hacking..


Thank you. Christ, I hate when people misuse that word.
 
2012-12-15 12:34:28 AM

c4rr0tc4k3: I have never signed in just to not do anything. So... additional residue is left behind after use.


ew.
 
2012-12-15 01:20:20 AM
This isn't a new problem. Hell, I helped a client access her Android a couple years ago using the pattern lock because I saw the smudges. :)
 
2012-12-15 02:02:32 AM

DeathByGeekSquad: Common sense is hacking now?


It's a goddamned superpower these days
 
2012-12-15 02:58:15 AM

Tenatra: Don't want to learn ANY oils on your screen? Get a pair of Isotoner Smartouch gloves.
The conductive fingertips will also allow you to keep your hands warm in inclement weather.

[www.smartouchgloves.com image 716x469]

/bought a pair for my fiancee
//she loves em



Holy crap, they made Ali G's ice cream cone gloves, but for the hi-tech crowd.
 
2012-12-15 03:05:48 AM

Christian Bale: Tenatra: Don't want to learn ANY oils on your screen? Get a pair of Isotoner Smartouch gloves.
The conductive fingertips will also allow you to keep your hands warm in inclement weather.

[www.smartouchgloves.com image 716x469]

/bought a pair for my fiancee
//she loves em


Holy crap, they made Ali G's ice cream cone gloves, but for the hi-tech crowd.


I bet the inside of her gloves smells horrible.
 
2012-12-15 03:36:23 AM
Answer: No, because no one willingly uses windows 8.

sweetpeteman: Because People in power are Stupid: Why do the pictures have to appear in the same place everytime?

I thought that was the whole idea, but I guess not. Any of the slide password type things are susceptible to this. I remember laughing at a friend who had one of the dots one that we could easily see the pattern on.


Wait, the slide things are supposed to be for security? I assumed they were a "lock" in the sense of "this keeps you from reaching into your pocket for a pen and accidentally dialing your mother from your pocket while loudly negotiating prices with a prostitute". I didn't realize that people are dumb enough to think they're passwords in the literal sense.
 
2012-12-15 04:18:25 AM
I have a Surface tablet and I know the password, and I still get it wrong at least twice every time. that thing is fairly sensitive to size and length. It isn't as much of an "approximate gesture" as you would think.
 
2012-12-15 04:28:45 AM
It's enough trouble having over 100 passwords on the internet; I'm not putting one on my computer. Whoever gets their hands on my 700$ device can enjoy it without the ten minute hack it'll take to remove the password.
 
2012-12-15 06:43:40 AM

baorao: I have a Surface tablet and I know the password, and I still get it wrong at least twice every time. that thing is fairly sensitive to size and length. It isn't as much of an "approximate gesture" as you would think.


michaellouiscalvillo.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-15 07:16:49 AM
Except, of course, that you need more than the final image to crack the password. You need the sequence in which the pattern was drawn. Unless you are dealing with a simpleton, it's about as hard to decipher as a password in which you know which buttons were pressed, but not the sequence.

For simple patterns, all that's required is brute force an ignorance. For longer sequences, you are pretty much back to rubber hose cryptanalysis.
 
2012-12-15 07:32:40 AM

styckx: "hacked"

Tracing smudges is not hacking..


Then, what is? What is your definition of hacking?

DeathByGeekSquad: Common sense is hacking now?


Yours too.

I'll say I'd call this specific activity 'cracking' which is a subcategory of hacking that is exploiting a vulnerability in a system to gain access, but its definitely a successful attack against a security model that didn't anticipate it.
 
2012-12-15 08:59:36 AM

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Picture passwords are for idiots. I always use 1-2-3-4-5


Agree!
 
2012-12-15 09:48:01 AM
This just in.....your portable device is not secure.

Your picture password is enough to stop your d-bag friends from messing with it if you leave it on the table. That's about it.
 
2012-12-15 02:48:38 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: This just in.....your portable device is not secure.

Your picture password is enough to stop your d-bag friends from messing with it if you leave it on the table. That's about it.


Haven't "butt dialed" since I started using it.
 
2012-12-15 04:47:58 PM
This is not a "hack" and the picture passwords have a higher statistical confidence than typed passwords or pin numbers. The research is over a decade old and has seen intense usability and scientific scrutiny. THere were "tablets" in 1995 that had this ability. There were touch screen kiosks at zoo's, night clubs, cashier's machines at any given store, I literally can't run out of examples from memory and we NEVER had a big news item this method was a security vulnerability. In over a decade.

That is why this is not a link to some MIT security research, or some black hat crushing blow vulnerability revelation at a press conference. It's just a link to some jack ass'es web page. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know that some random web user's anectdotal computer forensics is hardly warrant to condemn the software, the devices, and the method across the board.

Besides, not keeping your hands clean before using a touch screen (yea, the oil is not apparent if you do that) is about as irresponsible as typing your password one key at a time in plainview of somebody. And if you get the screen protectors for most of the devices, the oil can be wiped off right away or in my experience just smudges up a whole bunch obscuring the image. btw,. : Android's PIN or image passwords have the same farking vulnerability. Why no critics weighing in on this? Oh, duh. Either submitter, moderator, page author, or all three, just don't like Microsoft.

Stop green lighting all this ridiculous anti-MS bullshiat on the geek page, Fark. It's so frequent I'm starting to question the motivation behind it. Like it's not just cultural, it could be ... fiscal....
 
2012-12-15 07:20:12 PM

syrynxx: Why would someone want to break into Windows 8? That's like intentionally moving to Detroit.


Hmm... when I was a kid, my dad was working on a project with GM and considered moving the family to Detroit. Glad that didn't work out, but last time I visited, he was showing me how Windows 8 worked on his laptop. Yikes.
 
2012-12-16 04:22:33 AM
I use connect the dots on Android, it's very obvious what the pattern is, but it's still hard to butt dial the exact pattern.
 
2012-12-17 01:12:24 PM

Kazan: Free Radical: Can't you just use your mouse?

picture password was designed for touch devices. i'm not sure if mouse is supported. never cared to look.


It is and does.
 
2012-12-17 01:17:27 PM

JosephFinn: Tenatra: Don't want to learn ANY oils on your screen? Get a pair of Isotoner Smartouch gloves.
The conductive fingertips will also allow you to keep your hands warm in inclement weather.

[www.smartouchgloves.com image 716x469]

/bought a pair for my fiancee
//she loves em

Hey, thanks! I was just thinking about gloves like these this morning with cold finally hitting Chicago. Pretty good prices on Amazon too.


Being up in the Tundra, these things are a life saver. I picked up the 12 AE ones last winter and love 'em
Link
 
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