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(CBS Connecticut)   Connecticut school shooting thread, Part 3. Bring the ongoing discussion/bar fight here   (connecticut.cbslocal.com) divider line 654
    More: Followup, CBS, school shootings, Connecticut Post, emergency evacuation, Columbine High School, CBSNewYork, Newtown, Connecticut State Police  
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11290 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Dec 2012 at 3:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-12-14 03:39:55 PM  
11 votes:
80,000 people die every year in the U.S. from alcohol related events. Reaction... meh who cares
30,000 from car accidents.. meh
3,000,000 die around the world from std's. meh
16,000 children die each DAY from starvation.. meh
1,000,000 die in the middle east because of a lie.. meh
2012-12-15 03:36:35 AM  
10 votes:
At this point in time information is coming in fast and we understand that you may want to link to a Facebook page or other information about the shooter.  Please try to refrain from doing so.  It is personal information, and it may link to innocent people unrelated to this tragedy.  Thank you for your consideration. 
2012-12-14 03:42:04 PM  
10 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: 80,000 people die every year in the U.S. from alcohol related events. Reaction... meh who cares
30,000 from car accidents.. meh
3,000,000 die around the world from std's. meh
16,000 children die each DAY from starvation.. meh
1,000,000 die in the middle east because of a lie.. meh


I can be outraged about more than on injustice at a time. Sorry to hear about your limitations.
2012-12-14 03:40:04 PM  
10 votes:
What's more evil, a mentally ill person who could have been stopped by even a merely adequate mental healthcare system, or a healthcare system for profit that denies thousands of people coverage every day?

Not saying the shooter was mentally ill, but I just can't fathom how one could do this without something being wrong in their brain.
2012-12-14 04:02:00 PM  
9 votes:
Being the number 1 in gun ownership (maybe #2 behind Yeman) and cutting social services since Reagan is anyone really shocked? This is not a black swain, this is well with in the realm of modern American society.


I learned an invaluable lesson about American culture during my year in Israel. My room mate was an Israel Arab from a smaller village and thus wasn't as exposed to American culture as most Israelis. When I would ask him how his day was instead of the standard American one word response good,fine,etc... he would actually tell me! At first I found this off putting, I hadn't expected him to answer like that, but after awhile I realized how refreshing it was to not have a culture of keep it all in.
In the US as a society we teach people to repress emotion and even to feel bad for having them, specially with men/boys. It's not healthy, it part of the reason we are overworked, unhealthy, and drug addicted. On top of all that we glorify violence and make it seem like an okay outlet for that emotional build up, it's not healthy. Other countries have guns, other countries have see our media including video games and tv shows, the problem is something deeply deeply ingrained in our culture and there is no easy fix. Gun control, parental ratings on video games, better teachers, etc... none of that is a golden bullet to this issue, we need to stop and decided that someone saying "I need help" isn't to be ridiculed. We need to repair the social services in this country and work to get people the help they need, because right now we don't.
2012-12-14 03:44:05 PM  
8 votes:
I would be more down with the "this isn't the time for politics" crowd if we didn't systematically ignore some of the root causes for this stuff every time it happens.
2012-12-14 03:36:06 PM  
8 votes:
How about we post the happiest moments in our lives instead of talking about this evil?
2012-12-14 03:44:37 PM  
7 votes:
Obviously something like this will evoke a strong output of emotions.

Right now, as information is coming in, and as it is still fresh, we are apt to make instant impactful statements that we do not think before we speak.

I implore everyone to process what they are about to say instead of just saying it.

We are all sickened by this. We are all angry by this. Right now lets focus on open minded discussion over insulting each other. Insulting each other does no one any good at this point; it only makes us even more emotional.

If you want to make a quip about gun control, dont act like an ass. If you want to make a quip about being against gun control, dont act like an ass.

Thank you for your attention
2012-12-14 03:36:47 PM  
7 votes:
This sums up how I feel about this:
"This will be my only post today. We are shocked and horrified by the news coming out of Connecticut. When senseless violence takes the most innocent of lives, our grief is all the deeper.

Many will seek to turn their outrage to action. But now is not the time for politics. Let us instead reflect upon what was lost today, and first grieve together for the victims, many of whom were just children." ~George Takei via Facebook.

My rage will boil in a few minutes, impotent as it may be.
2012-12-14 04:59:35 PM  
6 votes:
danielwheeler.org
2012-12-14 04:27:45 PM  
6 votes:
20 dead children. Jesus, 20 dead FARKING CHILDREN. What worm-eaten excuse for a brain to you have to have that makes you capable of putting a rifle to your shoulder, looking down the sights seeing CHILD's Face and STILLbeing able pull the trigger?! Holy mother of god, how could ANYONE do that no matter how sick or filled with rage?

To all you worthless human beings whose first reaction to a store about a rampage killing of 20 little kids is to worry about whether someone wants to take your gun away, all I can say is FARK YOU, Fark you right in arse with a rusty chainsaw. Spew your paranoid bullshiat another day. Have the decency to mourn today instead
2012-12-14 03:46:17 PM  
6 votes:
For the record, my comment in the previous thread was poorly executed sarcasm. My point was that the bullshiat that gun nuts tell themselves over and over again (guns don't kill people; the second amendment protects me from tyranny; gun control only increases violence) is really just their way of ignoring the obvious: we have a severe problem with gun violence in this country that is exacerbated by extremely lax gun laws, but there's a large segment of the population that doesn't want the government interfering with their hobby.

I'm a gun owner, and enjoy the hobby. But I think it is way too easy to buy and sell handguns and semiautomatic rifles in this country, and would fully support common sense things like closing the gun show loophole, and reinstating the assault weapons ban.

Flame me if you want. Maybe more gun control would help, maybe it wouldn't. What I do know is that you can't commit a mass shooting without a gun. And it sickens me that these shootings keep on happening. We have to do something about it.
2012-12-14 05:40:19 PM  
5 votes:
So let's state the plain facts one more time, so that they can't be mistaken: Gun massacres have happened many times in many countries, and in every other country, the gun laws have been tightened to reflect the tragedy and the tragic knowledge of its citizens afterward. In every other country, gun massacres have subsequently become rare. In America alone, gun massacres, most often of children, happen with hideous regularity, and they happen with hideous regularity because guns are hideously and regularly available.

The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children. They have made a clear moral choice: that the comfort and emotional reassurance they take from the possession of guns, placed in the balance even against the routine murder of innocent children, is of supreme value. Whatever satisfaction gun owners take from their guns-we know for certain that there is no prudential value in them-is more important than children's lives. Give them credit: life is making moral choices, and that's a moral choice, clearly made.

Link
2012-12-14 04:58:19 PM  
5 votes:

Once again...

thismodernworld.com
2012-12-14 03:38:01 PM  
5 votes:
We should reassign the TSA to protect our public schools.
2012-12-14 11:56:35 PM  
4 votes:

davidphogan: So ban guns instead of treating the lack of decent mental health care in the country?


muck4doo: Treat the symptom, not the illness. I get it. This is why these things continue.


Stop it. I said nothing about the poor delivery of mental health services and the "illness" of mass murder seems always to be undertaken with guns. Not gasoline fires, not cars, not pencils, not any other ridiculous phantom mass murdering device constructed in this thread that is never chosen when a gun is available, and when one is not, doesn't lead to dozens of deaths.

I'm going to tell you something else. I own guns. And I've always supported the individuals right to own and carry one. But since the Giffords assasination attempt, I've been growing increasingly uneasy with the idea that they shouldn't be more closely regulated or even that ownership shouldn't require licensing. And frankly, your arguments and the others like them, are pushing me further away from what you're advocating because a rational case doesn't rely on strawmen, doesn't ignore the strict commonalities in these cases, and doesn't resort to absolutism against the suggestion that given the increasing deadly spree shootings, more regulation just might be in order.
2012-12-14 08:04:34 PM  
4 votes:
Two things:

First, I really don't understand the big issue over the gun debate in the US. Will restricting access to guns and making it harder to acquire one result in a 100% reduction of gun deaths, zero crime, zero fatalities? Of course not. But will it reduce the number of fatalities overall and incidents like this? Yes, absolutely.

There's this bizarre and peculiar perception that unless a solution fixes the problem entirely with zero drawbacks, there's no point in doing anything and so it's best to let these things keep on happening. It's ridiculous. Banning guns by itself won't stop incidents like these. There has to be a holistic approach where not only gun restrictions are looked at, but comprehensive mental health initiatives for today's troubled adolescents and young adults are put in effect as well.

Second, I really, really don't know how people can watch the news stations, any of them, these days. It's just endless parasites rushing to prey on any glimmer of carnage, with the biggest concern for these so called 'journalists' is being the first to report it, rather than ensure the accuracy of the story. The whole 24hr news cycle and their obsession with 'breaking news' features and focus on the most irrelevant details of horrific tragedies like these just so they can keep talking about is almost as sickening as this incident itself. Almost.
2012-12-14 07:37:42 PM  
4 votes:
Dear America,

Why the FARK do you idiots keep referring to a document written in

SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY-ONE

as if it is a goddamn holy writ handed down as an irrefutable aspect of reality?

Are you even aware of how twisted your nation has become by its slavish (and wildly fantastical) adoration of its Founding Fathers?
2012-12-14 06:57:30 PM  
4 votes:
i.imgur.com
2012-12-14 06:49:51 PM  
4 votes:
One thing I know we need in this country is the political will and foresight to vastly improve our mental health care.
2012-12-14 04:03:08 PM  
4 votes:

Ardilla: Cagey B: I would be more down with the "this isn't the time for politics" crowd if we didn't systematically ignore some of the root causes for this stuff every time it happens.

ABSOLUTELY THIS.

If now isn't the time to have a discussion about gun control, when will it ever be?


wat, the gun made him do this?

Well I guess it would be easier to go after the gun's involved than what actually drives people to such conclusions. Completely ineffective and pointless in the end (how do you get ALL the guns again?, really? all of them?) but a hellovalot easier right?

You have a major mental health issue in this country, and it involves guns in absolutely no way whatsoever. And you are proof, right here, that the biggest, most dangerous issue this country has ever faced, will never, ever, farking ever be seriously addressed. You are farking this country. You are so focused on the results, and not the symptoms.

If I die of a heart attack with a mcburger stuffed in my mouth, Mcdonalds is NOT to blame. Why in the fark would you blame McDonalds you moron? Sure they made it easier, but its not thier hands doing the stuffing.

This is pontless me trying to explain it to you and the rest i know but I want to believe I at least made the effort before you waste the next decade on yer lil crusades.
2012-12-14 04:00:23 PM  
4 votes:
We should add the lives of the first responders to the toll -- the first people into that classroom full of dead kids are going to be psychologically farked for life.
2012-12-14 03:49:34 PM  
4 votes:
Pssst...to any young kids reading Fark today in elementary school. First of all, you shouldn't be on this site, it's nasty. But second of all, when you go home tonight, you can pretty much write your own farking check. Have your folks been hemming and hawing about that puppy or bicycle or Xbox you really want for Christmas? Now's your chance. Just put on those big, wet anime eyes, and say something cute like, "I wuv you mommy," or "Can we have pasketti for dinner," and then drop a little hint about great it would be to have a bike or puppy or Xbox, and how happy it would make you and it sure would be a shame if Something Bad happened to you before you got a chance to enjoy it. Also, you got a pretty good shot at ice cream for dessert tonight.
2012-12-14 03:46:12 PM  
4 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Vegan Meat Popsicle: BraveNewCheneyWorld: 80,000 people die every year in the U.S. from alcohol related events. Reaction... meh who cares
30,000 from car accidents.. meh
3,000,000 die around the world from std's. meh
16,000 children die each DAY from starvation.. meh
1,000,000 die in the middle east because of a lie.. meh

I can be outraged about more than on injustice at a time. Sorry to hear about your limitations.

The point.. you missed it.


It's a stupid point because those things aren't the same, and most of us are upset about that crap too.
2012-12-14 03:43:58 PM  
4 votes:
unLurked
2012-12-14 03:33:02 PM

get real: Brenda Lebinski was among the anxious parents outside the school, looking for her 8-year-old daughter.
"I saw her and it was the happiest moment of my life," she said.


As a parent I would hope I would show empathy instead of joy. Yes, be happy and also express sadness.

fark you. My kids were in that school. I stood therer and held my wife while armed officers stormed the building. I stood there and waiting and waited and waited. I stood there and watched them bring out one line of kids after another.

When I saw my daughter and then my son. it was the happiest day of *my* life. So take your sanctimonious self righteous bullshiat and shove it up your ass.

//my little girl knew at least 3 or 4 of those dead kids and my wife was their Troop leader. Of course we are sad, you asshole.


EXACTLY THIS!!!!! I can't even imagine the complete terror someone would feel not knowing if their baby was alive or dead.
2012-12-14 03:42:48 PM  
4 votes:
Westboro Baptist church blaming this on Maine, Maryland, and Washington legalizing same-sex marriages last month in 3...2...1...


/you know those f*ckers will
2012-12-14 03:42:42 PM  
4 votes:
I am confused by all the comments about mental health care. I really don't think someone who is so disturbed that they would contemplate mass murder is going to seek professional help even in a country with more accessible or socialized healthcare.

Some people are just going to snap and do horrible things. When those people snap in a society where violence is glorified and guns are freely available, worse things are going to happen than in other societies. I think that's the problem. American society is not particularly healthy. People are conditioned to towards violence and guns. That worsens the impact of someone having a mental breakdown because they are more pre-disposed to more violent actions.

That's my theory, which I am totally unqualified to put forth.
2012-12-14 03:39:13 PM  
4 votes:
Feel that? That's freedom.
2012-12-14 11:42:18 PM  
3 votes:

wambu: Slackfumasta: Guns don't kill people, but they sure do make people more effective killers.

Agreed.


I knew somebody would google 'mass knife attacks' or something.

I don't know about you, but I'll take 22 wounded people over 22 dead people any day.
2012-12-14 11:22:04 PM  
3 votes:

jpbreon: Karma Curmudgeon:

A society that prefers to attack strawmen instead of problems. But please, make cars and drivers safer. I'll thank you for it, earnestly.

But today we're talking about 20 kids and 6 six school workers who were shot dead. By a gun. Not a car. Not a knife. A gun.

Again, the how matters much less than the why. The numbers are so devastating because the killer knew he had plenty of time to shoot without fear of any counter attack. Even a person loaded up with body armor and experience with guns would still be rattled by armed opposition, even if the opposition did not have the means to lethally end the attack they could buy time for help to arrive. These people pick schools and malls to attack because they know the law-abiding citizen has disarmed himself.


Using his mother's guns. You know, the ones that should have been her best line of defense, except as is much more statistically likely, her guns were used not for her defense, but against her.

And that's not why he picked this school. Something about his mother triggered him and the school was a connection to his mother. So the how does matter at least as much as the why, because without the firearms, the likelihood of the consequences being as severe are extremely small.
2012-12-14 08:33:27 PM  
3 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: cegorach: The argument is that decades of social programming by certain empowered lobbies have made gun control a non issue in the US.

If you want to make gun control the issue, you're missing an important fact. Our society provides no care for those with mental illness.

Seung-Hui Cho - mentally ill, no government intervention.
[i.usatoday.net image 245x185]

James Holmes - mentally ill, no government intervention.
[www.myfabulousstyle.com image 550x525]

Adam Lanza - mentally ill, no government intervention
[cdn77.psbin.com image 150x200]

But no, we should restrict guns instead of building a system to identify and provide help for people with mental illness. 

The same can be said of Columbine shooters and DC snipers. Let's address the real issue for once, and incorporate it in Obamacare.

/all images hotlinked


I am unsure whether you are trolling or just woefully ignorant when it comes to mental health issues and extended reasoning.

You see in my, sane, world, it's not a choice between 'better mental health' and 'giving every farker killing tools'.

In my sane world, these two are quite separate. I advocate better mental health and NOT giving everyone killing tools because, you know, killing isn't all that great a thing to have easy access to.

I understand you don't get this but as someone who has happily gone through his life without one, I can tell you I do not stay up all night scared of negroes, THE BRITISH or my lack of 'FREEDOM'. I'm happy as a clam without my gun and have no fear that my kids will get blown away one day because FREEDOM.

But back to your kind-of point - do you really think better mental health care is the sole answer?

do you really think that all of these people are first of all clearly and visibly ill to the level that would trigger automatic action, and secondly within support frameworks where people would notice this about them in a timely fashion?

because that's the reality of the situation.

Better mental health care is a BIG step towards reducing random massacres.

Taking farking guns away is a goddamn MASSIVE LEAP towards reducing random massacres, as the facts have repeatedly shown.

but yes yes, ZOMBIES NEGROES THE BRITISH FREEDOM ETC ETC
2012-12-14 07:43:45 PM  
3 votes:

cegorach: The argument is that decades of social programming by certain empowered lobbies have made gun control a non issue in the US.


If you want to make gun control the issue, you're missing an important fact. Our society provides no care for those with mental illness.

Seung-Hui Cho - mentally ill, no government intervention.
i.usatoday.net

James Holmes - mentally ill, no government intervention.
www.myfabulousstyle.com

Adam Lanza - mentally ill, no government intervention
cdn77.psbin.com

But no, we should restrict guns instead of building a system to identify and provide help for people with mental illness. 

The same can be said of Columbine shooters and DC snipers. Let's address the real issue for once, and incorporate it in Obamacare.

/all images hotlinked
2012-12-14 07:38:39 PM  
3 votes:
This is your Dunblane America, it is the best chance the anti gun lobby will get and they'd be foolish to not take it. Restrictions on guns will follow this.
You won't be able to argue against it without sounding like a child killer is my guess, it's what happened here.
Thing is, from my British perspective, the reason you don't have more control of guns there seems to be in large part because the anti gun lobby does act foolishly. As well as dishonestly, conflating military assault rifles with any look-alike semi auto for example.
If the anti gun people were more competent and weren't prone to sometimes imaginative interpretations of the truth you guys would have more stringent controls on who could (legally) have access to guns and what type, as opposed to what they look like.
Now I'm sure we all can think of someone who we know should not be allowed to handle guns. So we are all for some gun control in theory, it's just a matter of degree.

/Occasional shooter.
//This is just me mumbling into a hurricane.
2012-12-14 07:19:34 PM  
3 votes:
"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.' To this day, especially in times of disaster, I remember my mother's words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers--so many caring people in this world." -Fred Rogers
2012-12-14 07:16:42 PM  
3 votes:
Gosh some of you guys are real dicks
2012-12-14 06:36:34 PM  
3 votes:
The Second Amendment: Ratified December 15, 1791
"Protects the right of the people to freedom of the press,"

Fine, in 1791, this was used to print books :
upload.wikimedia.org
You want to blog your opinion? No problem.
Anything else, you go to jail for a long, long time.
Seems fair.
2012-12-14 06:29:46 PM  
3 votes:
The Second Amendment: Ratified December 15, 1791
"Protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms,,,"

Fine, in 1791, this was a firearm:
thespecialistsltd.com
You want a black powder muzzle loader? No problem.
Anything else, you go to jail for a long, long time.
Seems fair.
2012-12-14 06:25:29 PM  
3 votes:

dittybopper: Magorn: 20 dead children. Jesus, 20 dead FARKING CHILDREN. What worm-eaten excuse for a brain to you have to have that makes you capable of putting a rifle to your shoulder, looking down the sights seeing CHILD's Face and STILLbeing able pull the trigger?! Holy mother of god, how could ANYONE do that no matter how sick or filled with rage?

To all you worthless human beings whose first reaction to a store about a rampage killing of 20 little kids is to worry about whether someone wants to take your gun away, all I can say is FARK YOU, Fark you right in arse with a rusty chainsaw. Spew your paranoid bullshiat another day. Have the decency to mourn today instead

If you'd let us without trying to score some sad political points, we would.


I'm not trying to sore anything, and i like you personally, your muzzle loaders ain't going to be causing mass casualties anytime soon.. But this is farking IT. This has to stop . People need to be able to go to the movies, or shopping, children need to be able to go to school without worrying that some maniac is going to end their life on a whim. This cannot be a regular feature of a civilized society PERIOD. NOW I personally do not give a flying fark whether we accomplish this by making guns way less available to people or mental health care much more available, but we've at least got to do one or the other, and we need to do it yesterday
2012-12-14 06:24:58 PM  
3 votes:
i1182.photobucket.com
2012-12-14 05:14:03 PM  
3 votes:
So, with today's tragedy, I'm left with a realization. I don't want to know why he did it. I don't want to "make sense of this tragedy." There is no sense to be made of it. No answer to the question of "why he did it" that would not just enrage me even more - no possibility that the motive will be uncovered, and lead me to say "Oh, well that's why, I guess it did make sense to kill those children." It doesn't make sense, it won't make sense and I never want to get to the point where it does make sense. Comfort the grieving, heal the wounded, love the living - but please don't ever ask me to make sense of this. I can't
2012-12-14 04:58:46 PM  
3 votes:
25.media.tumblr.com
2012-12-14 04:54:01 PM  
3 votes:
I have no kids of my own, but tonight all your kids are now partly mine. Hug them for me.
2012-12-14 04:41:57 PM  
3 votes:

Bullseyed: eddievercetti: With this and what happened in China, is there nothing to help the mentally unstable at all?

They used to be killed or locked away in asylums. Once the left demanded that they be Ronald Reagan shut down government-funded mental hospitals, forcing the patients to be reintegrated into the population, and keeping future mentally ill people from being able to get adequate help this kind of thing started becoming more common.


You made it political, so eat a dick.
2012-12-14 04:25:35 PM  
3 votes:

JungleBoogie: y. We have a population that is more prone to internal violence than small, homogeneous groups of Israelis or Swedes, for a lot of reasons.


Check the rates of poverty in Sweden or Switzerland, then check the poverty rate in the US. You have most of your issue right there.
2012-12-14 04:14:29 PM  
3 votes:

eddievercetti: I just heard FOX has some douche blaming video games, of course FOX, go after everything but the crazy!


Videogames are just the new version of 'rock and roll'. Something popular to blame while doing jacksquat about the real reasons behind the murder.
2012-12-14 04:12:03 PM  
3 votes:

Sterling Thunder: If these wastes didn't have guns they would have made a homemade bomb,


The Columbine guys tried to make bombs and failed miserably, yet with their guns...
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-14 04:11:44 PM  
3 votes:
t3.gstatic.com
2012-12-14 04:04:10 PM  
3 votes:

chaoticcrash: The best thing to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.



I can't even begin to fathom the level of stupidity it takes to post something like that regarding a situation like this.
2012-12-14 03:59:08 PM  
3 votes:
Lady on CNN: "Worst part was when cop standing in front of last 20 parents had to tell them that their kids were dead."

I'm pretty sure I would've just thrown up and collapsed if I was waiting outside the school and the kids just stopped coming out. Can't even imagine it.
2012-12-14 03:58:26 PM  
3 votes:
As a father and husband and son of a teacher, I am deeply upset and my heart goes out to everyone in Connecticut today who is experiencing the soul-crushing loss this tragedy has caused.

There are going to be empty beds tonight, Farkers. Empty little beds. Presents under trees that will never be opened. God. God damn, that... that's just heartbreaking.
2012-12-14 03:51:25 PM  
3 votes:
Yet, the shootings in AZ at the Giffords speech, TONS of people there had weapons and none of them used them.

In interviews they all said about the same things, that they were afraid if they shot others would think they were part of it and shoot them, that they ran for cover instead of trying to be a "hero", or that, when it comes down to it, unless a gun is pointed right at your face, it is very hard to shoot someone else, no matter what you see in the movies.

Funny how gun nuts never bring any of this up, how guns don't always save you.

Only reason that shooter was stopped was his gun jammed and people jumped him.

RARELY do you see a case where a shooter is stopped because someone with a gun shoots them, RARELY.

OnlyM3: BronyMedic:
[Citation Needed] that a CCW has ever stopped a spree shooter in a School or College Campus. It's ALWAYS been people taking action to overwhelm and rush the shooter, or campus police drilling them in the skill. Or they've had their guns jam, or killed themselves.
It's been posted in both the threads on this topic today.
It was posted in the "mall shooter" thread
It has been posted in several gun thread before that.

Your refusal to face reality does not change the facts. They are as a wise man once said, "Stubborn things"

1) ========================================================
Pearl High School in Pearl Mississippi, October 1, 1997.

A 16 year-old student, Luke Woodham, after slitting his mothers throat, showed up at school with a .30-30 rifle and started shooting. Upon hearing the shots, the Principal immediately called 911 seeking help from the Police, as more shots rang out.

Assistant Principal, Joel Myrick, reacted much differently, though. Hearing the shots, he ran to his parked truck and retrieved his own .45 caliber pistol and chased Woodham down, holding him at bay by pointing the loaded weapon right at his face. Woodham stopped his carnage right there.


2) ========================================================
Parker Middle School dance shooting April 24, 1998

Wurst showed up late to the dance, with his father's .25-caliber pistol in a holster belt under his jacket. He had previously left a suicide note under his pillow, and stated to investigators that he planned to go to the dance and kill only himself.[4]

The shooting began on an outdoor patio, about 20 minutes before the dance was scheduled to end, around 9:40. He shot John Gillette ....

...Wurst proceeded to enter Nick's Place, where the dance had been held, and subsequently fired and wounded Edrye Boraten, a teacher and two students, Jacob Tury and Justin Fletcher.[1] The shooting ended when the owner of Nick's Place, James Strand, intervened and confronte ...

2012-12-14 03:51:20 PM  
3 votes:
I texted my wife and she's a wreck. I told her to just hug our son after school and just let him chill out and be a kid. Dont bring up what happened unless he does and then texted her what Mr. Rogers said about in time of crisis. When i get home i'll take him to redbox so he can rent a movie and we can all just decompress tonight. No news, no cell phones just family time
2012-12-14 03:50:52 PM  
3 votes:

calbert: I'm at a loss, and since I don't have any kids, I'm going to go the nearest school and start hugging as many kids as I can.


I wouldn't try that today.

/just sayin'
2012-12-14 03:46:22 PM  
3 votes:
BronyMedic:
[Citation Needed] that a CCW has ever stopped a spree shooter in a School or College Campus. It's ALWAYS been people taking action to overwhelm and rush the shooter, or campus police drilling them in the skill. Or they've had their guns jam, or killed themselves.

It's been posted in both the threads on this topic today.
It was posted in the "mall shooter" thread
It has been posted in several gun thread before that.

Your refusal to face reality does not change the facts. They are as a wise man once said, "Stubborn things"

1) ========================================================
Pearl High School in Pearl Mississippi, October 1, 1997.

A 16 year-old student, Luke Woodham, after slitting his mothers throat, showed up at school with a .30-30 rifle and started shooting. Upon hearing the shots, the Principal immediately called 911 seeking help from the Police, as more shots rang out.

Assistant Principal, Joel Myrick, reacted much differently, though. Hearing the shots, he ran to his parked truck and retrieved his own .45 caliber pistol and chased Woodham down, holding him at bay by pointing the loaded weapon right at his face. Woodham stopped his carnage right there.


2) ========================================================
Parker Middle School dance shooting April 24, 1998

Wurst showed up late to the dance, with his father's .25-caliber pistol in a holster belt under his jacket. He had previously left a suicide note under his pillow, and stated to investigators that he planned to go to the dance and kill only himself.[4]

The shooting began on an outdoor patio, about 20 minutes before the dance was scheduled to end, around 9:40. He shot John Gillette ....

...Wurst proceeded to enter Nick's Place, where the dance had been held, and subsequently fired and wounded Edrye Boraten, a teacher and two students, Jacob Tury and Justin Fletcher.[1] The shooting ended when the owner of Nick's Place, James Strand, intervened and confronted Wurst with his shotgun, ordering him to drop his weapon and later holding him at bay for eleven minutes

But lets keep trying it your way. Disarm groups then wonder how bad things happen.

You've stacked all the cards are stacked in your favor and you're still wrong. Your side has setup situations where people are disarmed then puff your chest up and demand evidence victims in that disarmed population defended themselves with guns you took from them.

Columbine -no guns allowed- Cops sat outside while students were being killed yet your side blames gun owners for not stopping the active shooters.

V. Tech -no guns allow- yet hoplophobes hopped in the thread demanding gun owners explain why a law abiding gun owner didn't stop the shooting.

CO Theater -no guns allow- yet your side ridiculed the fact that no gun owner stopped the shooting.

Oregon mall shooting - -no guns allow- yet again (seeing a trend yet?)

The "logic" of your argument is so clearly flawed yet you never stop using it.

We keep trying it your way, with disarmed victim zones. What do they call trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome?
2012-12-14 03:45:43 PM  
3 votes:
Fine, this is too early to discuss gun control (I prefer an outright ban on all guns of all kind, starting right now, but anyway) because it is just happening and now is not the time.

Aurora happened a while ago, let's talk how we would have prevented that.
Gabby Gifford got shot over a year ago, let's talk how we could prevented that.
Let's talk why those Sikhs died.
Let's talk Virginia tech.
Let's talk Nadal's army shooting.
Let's talk the mall shootings this Tuesday.

What the fark? How much farking more blood you want?
2012-12-14 03:44:51 PM  
3 votes:

GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?


If there isn't to be a conversation about gun control now, when is it going to happen? What is the window on that? Because this kind of thing happens all too frequently.
2012-12-14 03:44:43 PM  
3 votes:

serial_crusher: Shooter killed himself, huh? It's a shame that he deprived the police of that honor.


It's a REAL shame he didn't do that FIRST. Miserable prick had to take innocent children's lives, times like this I wish I believed in hell.
2012-12-14 03:43:54 PM  
3 votes:
Obviously, schools and breeding are at fault here. Guns are a sacred right, education and procreation are not. Do away with public schools and stop having children, and those bullets pass harmlessly into the landscape.

...
2012-12-14 03:43:00 PM  
3 votes:

USP .45: Well Obama just did so go for it.


Shouldn't you be on some NRA site complaining about how everyone hates Whitey without any evidence?
2012-12-14 03:42:51 PM  
3 votes:
There is no proper day for politics. Politics is a part of everything we do. If we were there or at the funeral, there is something to be said about not talking about something like that, but this is an internet posting board for chrissakes. Deal with it.
2012-12-14 03:41:58 PM  
3 votes:
Our ability to harm one another far exceeds our ability to reason and communicate with one another.

This is the natural result of a primitive brain coupled with efficient, technologically-advanced weaponry.

Damn you, humanity.
2012-12-14 03:41:20 PM  
3 votes:

GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?


How about we politicize gun control using the victims from Aurora this week, and we tack the kids from CT up on the cross next week?

Like it's not valid to talk about gun control when 18 kids get shot in a rampage? Which way does gravity go in your universe?
2012-12-14 03:41:12 PM  
3 votes:

KidSock2004: Moonfisher: Ok, they are now saying Ryan Lanza is alive and in custody, that his younger brother Adam was the shooter and is dead.

If that's true, good LORD did the news outlets fark up


What a farking day to be Ryan Lanza.

"You shot a bunch of people and we're showing everyone your face saying you shot a bunch of people"
"NO I DIDN'T WHAT THE FARK?!"
"Oops yeah our bad you didn't."
"Good, glad that's settled."
"It was your brother."
"..."
2012-12-14 03:40:08 PM  
3 votes:
I keep coming back to The Onion article while I'm watching this. We'll blame something, call it a day, do nothing and let the cycle repeat.

It's probably going to happen with this and that's what infuriates me the most.
2012-12-14 03:40:04 PM  
3 votes:
Ok - this is why they should STFU for a few hours and get their FING story right
2012-12-14 03:38:39 PM  
3 votes:
News reports that Lanza killed himself

Farking coward
2012-12-15 04:56:38 AM  
2 votes:
Ive been reading this site for years as a guest. The few comments about armed faculty or lock boxes got me to break my silence. I had to wait 6 hours to post my first so here goes.

uncrumples note

As a parent of an elementary student, yesterday was tough. I'm sickened by the horror and heartbroken for the victims and families. I resisted the urge to pull my kids out of school and daycare and watched events unfold. I thought about teachers with concealed weapons and lockboxes in class and decided I'm not comfortable with that.

However, while I was processing out of the Army I was told about a myriad of programs for veterans, disabled soldiers and retirees returning to civilian life. Among them is a "Troops to Teachers" program that fast track's qualifying veterans (which I do, due to a combat related disability) through their teaching degree for public school grades K-12. My immediate thought was how my military training and combat experience would prepare me to instruct children in a classroom in such a short time? During my service I spent my last three years as a Corporal, then Sergeant. Grooming fresh soldiers; instructing, mentoring and motivating men and women who volunteered to stand beside me was my job. But a school house is no place for the hyper-vigilant, stressful and uncomfortable type of instruction I was accustomed to. I concluded that was not the environment for a beat up combat vet and dismissed the thought almost immediately and it hadn't crossed my mind until now.

I can imagine a retired vet teaching my kids if there was an active shooter at their school. A veterans training, instinct and experience would kick into action a series of calculated, tactical and procedural events to safe guard our children. That combined with a soldier's uncompromising selflessness and willingness to place themselves between the helpless, the innocent or the wounded, regardless of the threat of harm or death, got me thinking. I might not make the greatest elementary teacher, but I can soak up a hell of a lot more high velocity lead than a 5 year old.

I just started college and have options. I guess I will consider if our society needs the presence of trained warriors in schools, and what kind of teacher and mentor I could be. I know I'm having a great time with my kids.

just my .02
2012-12-15 04:01:43 AM  
2 votes:
Sad thing is, not one of you sad neckbeards would actually have the stones to stand in front of one of the mothers who lost a child today and spout your .

Not one.

'Yeah, I'm sorry your five year-old daughter had half her face blown off and died of brain trauma but you know, someone with a knife could have done that so don't you dare try and take my guns away.'

'Yeah, I'm sorry your seven year-old son bled out while sobbing but you know, we all gotta have free access to guns because like the Founding Fathers would say, you gotta keep the gubmint and its attack helicopters in line.'

'Yeah, I'm sorry your eight year-old daughter was pulled screaming from under a desk and shot to death but you know, we all need to be able to own guns because FREEDOM.'

'Yeah, I'm sorry your seven year-old daughter and your six year old son were caught in a hail of bullets but you know it wasn't a gun that killed them because guns don't kill people, people do.'

'Yeah, I'm sorry your nine year-old daughter died in extreme agony from a gut wound but you know around a hundred people died in car accidents today AND I DON'T SEE YOU CRYING FOR THEM LADY.'

Harsh?

That's what you people are doing right now.

Right now, and you will continue doing it tomorrow.

All because of fairy stories you were told as children, fairy stories that coincidentally form one of the major political issues in your nation that both parties can easily milk to get you idiots jumping through hoops.

The domestic firearms industry thanks you yet again for your diligent support and urges you to purchase more killtoys in this time of obviously increasing social disharmony.
2012-12-15 12:42:13 AM  
2 votes:

birchman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: birchman: So that makes this acceptable then? Collateral damage? We shouldn't try to save even one person because people die sometimes anyway so what's the use? Yes, how foolish of me. You're a visionary.

Tell me the last time you tried to restrict alcohol consumption for the 80,000 deaths each year, including children. I expect a link to your post, or I expect you to admit you're a hypocrite with a political agenda.

You wanna know the funny part? Just like I posted earlier, I don't have a huge problem with guns. Wanna link? Here.

I wanna treat the problem, but unfortunately people don't want to do that either. I like shooting guns, but I'll gladly give it up if it means things like this might not happen as often if we can't get better care for these people to prevent it from happening.


And that's exactly the problem. We can deal with the root of the problem, in ways that are far less intrusive than the solutions you are suggesting. I'm on the Democrats' side here with one caveat: there is already legislation on the books that can prevent this from happening. It just needs teeth. I suggest we give that already existing legislation some pretty damn sharp teeth and all the tools it needs to get the job done before we start trying things that we've tried in the past that utterly failed. I'm fine with a NICS database with access to mental health records. I'm fine with gun ownership being subject to the DSM IV. Hell, I'm even fine with national ID tied into it. And all the wonderful benefits that would come with it.

When we sit down and discuss the situation seriously, and with all important factors in mind, most gun owners are fine with the notion of the mentally ill not being allowed to own firearms. Most gun owners are fine with licensing requirements for special rights like having a CCW. Most gun owners are even fine with licensing procedures on par with what we already have now regarding citizens owning truly military grade hardware being applied to what everybody else who doesn't care regards as "military hardware." We just want some concessions. Want the tax stamp on AR-15's and the same process being applied? Fine, make it as streamlined as the common NICS check is now and drop the tax stamp from $200 to $20 and only the Turner Diaries nuts would bat an eye.

Want the mental health check established? Fine, let the NON NRA-ILA people (the NRA aren't really a bad bunch of folks, it's the political wing of that particular organization that gives common sense guys like me a bad name, the training guys over there wrt Hunter's Safety, Gun Safety, Etc. are by far some of the most stand up and respectable guys in the gun community) sit on the board to veto some of the really out there stuff and we're good. Taking Celebrex is not a reason to revoke somebody's gun rights, but with some of the draconian gun legislation we've seen from Democrats lately (literally, not sorting your recycling is a reason to have your firearms license revoked in NYC), there needs to be some checks and balances.

Want to be really progressive about it? Fine, I'll submit to the same tax stamp process we have for civilian owned fully automatic weapons, for all "Military Style" semi-autos, even with the above steps on top of it, on two conditions:

Life the 1986 Machine Gun Ban. Seriously, we're talking about enthusiasts willing to go so far as to have their fourth amendment rights foregone in order to own machine guns, on top of everything else they have to go through. Background checks, letters of approval from a local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer), registration with BATFE, you name it. These people seriously just love their range time. Why punish them by severely restricting the supply of the things they're so expensive as to put them out of reach of all but the wealthy? They're already going through more work to own these guns than they would be subjected to in say Sweden or Austria, they're practically prostrating themselves to the state because they want to pursue their hobby that much. Quit kicking them in the balls.

Removing Suppressors from schedule 3. It's a piece of safety equipment. It's to protect other people's hearing. The only time these things are useful for concealing a shot's audible signature is at distances well over the range you'd be able to pinpoint the shot's origin without suppression anyway and inside of that there is still VERY LITTLE DOUBT a shot had been fired. It's Hollywood mythology garnering fear, and it needs to stop, I'd like to be able to go to the range to sight in a long range rifle for once and not have to deal with the assholes who are such pussies about recoil they decide to install a brake because suppressors are illegal (suppressors act as recoil brakes too, AND they reduce noise, they're awesome!) and have my muffs practically blown off by the guy in the next stall sighting in his .300 Winchester Mag. Hell, they offer the things for sale OTC in Europe because it's considered the polite thing to do.

Is that enough capitulation? Give a little, take a little, would you accept that?
2012-12-15 12:35:27 AM  
2 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Keizer_Ghidorah: Then you know something? You address the root. You educate the parents, remind them not to take chances with their children, and punish them if they fark up.

Show me one single post where you took such a stand. One.

birchman: I wanna treat the problem, but unfortunately people don't want to do that either.

We need a society that helps the mentally ill. Every one of the past mass shootings in the previous several years was a direct result of mental illness that went ignored by our society. Banning guns is idiotic, we need to establish a system of government that allows citizens to identify, and help people that are mentally ill. Anything else is putting a band aid on a leaking dam, and will ultimately fail. If you opt for the band aid, you are directly responsible for every death that occurs after.


No shiat.

However, you're living in a dream world if you think you're going to catch every mass murderer before they pop.

American gun culture is part of the problem too. None of you gun nuts want to admit this.

I own a gun. It's a 12-gauge shotgun with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip. Not good for hunting or for target practice, really. You know what it would be good at? Killing people at close range. You know how I got it? I walked into a store and bought it used, piece of cake. I get more scrutiny buying liquor.
2012-12-15 12:22:43 AM  
2 votes:

muck4doo: No, the problem is many think taking tools away from the mentally ill and people in general will solve everything. Plenty of people throughout recorded history have also used fire to kill many. Will you ban that too hoping it solves your problem? Where there is a will, there is a way for the murderous to achieve their goals. Banning a tool from the law abiding in hopes a murderous person won't be able to use it is not a solution to the problem.


And here you grasp at the last straw possible to justify the free and easy accessibility to guns that has, against all odds and common sense, been promoted via the 2nd amendment, gun lobbyists and the NRA. There is absolutely no purpose to unfettered access to guns other than to line the pockets o gun manufacturers and instill some false sense of security in conspiracy theorists.

The removal of access to guns would be no worse than the travesty of unrestricted search and seizure that the average citizen goes through every time they get on a bus with wings at an airport in the US. Guns are intended to kill people and the risks to society far outweigh the benefits. Perhaps your founding fathers enshrined the right to bear arms in a 200-year-old document that in no way anticipated today's technology. But guess what?Things change. Time to revisit that piece of paper now that muskets aren't the weapon de jour.
2012-12-14 11:55:36 PM  
2 votes:

SubBass49: Given that people who knew this shooter KNEW that he was off his rocker, I'd like to see "mandated reporter laws" extended to all adults age 18 and up. Know a psycho? Report them for treatment ASAP or your ass is getting locked up when they do some crazy shiat.


We should extend that to people who know drug dealers and cops who know of dirty cops.... and something something in one hand with something something in the other.

REMEMBER THAT TIME WHEN ALL I WANTED WAS A PEPSI AND YOU INSISTED THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG SO YOU CALLED THAT NUMBER????? WELL FARKING DO YA!!!???

We lock people up when the DNA evidence doesn't match up and the defendent was doing a 6 month tour on the international space station when the crime was committed...and you want to leave it up to fellow citizens, which includes farkers, to report eachother? How many deaths are you trying to cause?
2012-12-14 11:46:16 PM  
2 votes:

muck4doo: Slackfumasta: muck4doo: Slackfumasta: muck4doo: whatshisname: jpbreon: Your implication is that banning guns will make guns go away (false) and that these crimes are committed because of the existence of guns (false).

Banning guns will temper the gun culture in America and make guns less accessible to someone who may be insane or just sick. Rather than killing 25 people before they kill themselves, they'll just sit in the garage with the car running. It may not stop assaults, but it will reduce their severity. Easy access to weapons which can do incredible damage is never a good thing. It exaggerates the consequences of bad decisions and enables truly sick people.

And yet another idiot attacking the tool, rather than looking at what has become wrong with our society that human life is so cheapened.

Right, because guns aren't part of the problem at all. Just look at all the people walking into movie theaters and schools and stabbing more than 20 people to death!

Boy, if I were in a building with a crazy psychopath on a rampage, I'd thank the second amendment that he only had a few high powered firearms instead of lead pipe or something!

It's a tool used. A bomb or arson can be used as well. Why do we have so many defunct humans that think other human life is worthless? That is where we should start looking.

Guns are far easier to come by than bombs are.

Sure, arson could be used as well, but again, guns are easier to come by and are more effective at killing many people in a short amount of time.

Guns don't kill people, but they sure do make people more effective killers.

And again, you really don't want to look at the problem of what is wrong, do you? Just get rid of the tolos as best you can, and ignore the pervading sickness causing the problems.


Sure, we can look at that problem. We're intelligent creatures, we can handle more than one discussion at a time.

But you keep bleating about mental illness while refusing to admit that American attitudes towards guns make these mass murders way too easy.
2012-12-14 11:46:08 PM  
2 votes:
Just thought of this a little bit ago...

As a teacher, I'm a mandated reporter...meaning that if I catch wind that a student is undergoing abuse of any type, or has suicidal or homicidal thoughts, I am REQUIRED BY LAW to report it to an administrator, social-worker, child-protective services agent, or psychologist. Failure to comply can result in jail time, the end of my career, and/or a fine.

Given that people who knew this shooter KNEW that he was off his rocker, I'd like to see "mandated reporter laws" extended to all adults age 18 and up. Know a psycho? Report them for treatment ASAP or your ass is getting locked up when they do some crazy shiat.

Might be a good start...
2012-12-14 11:38:45 PM  
2 votes:

muck4doo: And you think getting rid of guns and the "tools" available in the Middle east will fix the problems there they have with us?


No, but it might stop Jerusalem from becoming a glass parking lot. If that happened there would be a whole lot more problems. There are two issues - the political/religious/class wars and the tools available to fight those wars. Limit your opponents tools and you've got room to maneuver.Otherwise, it's cold war all over again.

But back to the issue at hand. If every looney has the same access to guns as the average law-abiding citizen, you're not protecting anybody. Who's more likely tio use the weapon?
2012-12-14 11:36:21 PM  
2 votes:

iq_in_binary: birchman: iq_in_binary: birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.

You've obviously never heard of Mr. Miculek, have you. Hell, Cho managed to ring up his body count without extended magazines or any of the "killing machine" accessories people like to drone on about. Standard sized mags, and he was quite proficient at reloading.

Hell, even I can reload a revolver in less than a second with a SpeedLoader, and I hate the damn things. 2 seconds with speed strips.

Like I said, ask jared loughner what happens when you stop to reload.

How about I ask the farkers that shot at my cousins at Columbine? Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold got to reload to their heart's content.

Oh yeah, that was during the Assault Weapons Ban. Wasn't the Assault Weapons Ban supposed to prevent Columbine?

I can also ask Holmes. Oh yeah, he was using a C Mag, which anybody with half a brain would have avoided due to their notorious reputation for jamming, which is exactly what happened to him.


A ban certainly won't solve things overnight, but it's not a reason not to try. Like I told you much earlier when you suddenly decided to stop replying to me, you aren't the problem as a law abiding gun owner, you're not a killer. Just remember that because you NEED these semi-automatic weapons, this is the price. This is what happens because you just can't give them up. Unstable people can also get them just like you. And the same people who argue til they're blue in the face for gun rights refuse to accept sweeping health care reform that will help these people before they do something like this. Rationalize it away all you want, I'm not saying you directly approve of this kind of stuff, but you allow it to happen because you're selfish and NEED your adrenaline rush. Sleep tight, a lot of former parents tonight will not.
2012-12-14 11:35:47 PM  
2 votes:

wambu: misanthropologist: let's debate whether anyone should be making a profit by building killing machines.

Like automobiles?

Like fast-food restaurants?

And how about the black clothing that all these creeps favor?

Yeah, let's distract ourselves with that debate.



Why would talking about every possible option and angle be a distraction?

It sounds like you've got everything figured out in your own head but why don't you want other people to have discussions?

Why shouldn't people talk about the deliberate marketing and indiscriminate sale of machines designed to kill?
2012-12-14 11:31:03 PM  
2 votes:

muck4doo: It's a tool used. A bomb or arson can be used as well. Why do we have so many defunct humans that think other human life is worthless? That is where we should start looking.


Take it to the next level, the global level.

Iran wants nukes. But they're just a tool, aren't they? Why are we worrying about the tool so much? We should have the UN send them a few more strongly-worded letters instead. Maybe we should send over teams of psychotherapists. Maybe we should try and erase centuries of imperialist policies in the region.. but whatever we do, lets not deprive them of their tools.

The root of the problem did not originate with the tools, but now that the tools are out there, we best make sure they can't use them.
2012-12-14 11:02:53 PM  
2 votes:
If we're going to politicize this tragedy (and it's already inherently political when it happens, because it involves decision-making about things that can and can not be done and owned in society), then let's frame this issue in more sensible terms.

This isn't about people's rights to defend themselves from an oppressive regime, this is about people's freedom to consume goods produced by for-profit corporations who have nothing but their own profit in mind when producing and marketing those goods. This isn't about people needing firearms for subsistence or security, it is about people wanting weapons for pleasure. Which part of the US Constitution covers the right to profit at the expense of others and the right to pleasurable consumption of luxury goods? Does that passage put those rights above public goods like the freedom to not get shot?

Be honest, pro-gun people: you want the right to own guns because you enjoy shooting them. It makes you feel good. I don't pretend that it's irrational to enjoy wielding a lethal weapon. Even if it's just going to the shooting range and punching holes in paper targets, it feels good. It gives you physical pleasure. It releases endorphins in your brain that make you smile. Maybe it's just the thrill of making a loud noise. We're pretty simple creatures, after all. Loud noises, flashes, bangs. All of these excite us on a deep, primal level.

Weapons manufacturers exploit this. They know that they can make profit by appealing to our primal need for pleasure. And they don't really care what the negative, unintended consequences of their profit-making exercise might be. They can rationalize and advertize away the negative consequences of mass-produced lethal weapons. They're willing to spend millions of dollars per year to do just that. They know that it feels good when you pull a trigger and send a projectile through the air into a target. They know that it's the sound of the explosion of gunpowder in the shell, the forceful kick as the projectile flies forward, through the barrel and toward the target that makes you feel powerful, tickles your brain stem, makes you smile. But they have built a whole culture around it. From the simple, primal pleasure of making a noise, they have built up an ideology that links that pleasure with liberty, with safety. It's not just the primal response to a sudden noise, but the symbolic associations that drive the endorphins through the roof. It's imagining that the target is an enemy soldier and experiencing the thrill of bravery in defending your nation and your freedom. It's imagining the target is an intruder in your home and experiencing the adrenalin rush of protecting your belongings and your loved ones. Your primal pleasure at gently squeezing the trigger so that the mechanism causes the percussive release of a small lead projectile has been transformed into a larger, deeper pleasure at fulfilling your fantasy of being a hero, and of taking a life if necessary, when necessary.

This is marketing. This is a producer of a good with little utility turning it into a desired commodity. This is expert work. This is luxury consumption. This is about making profits, not about liberty or safety or about actually being a hero. This is about convincing you that buying and using their product will make you feel like a hero. And in our increasingly specialized, anonymous society, this is the maker and seller of a product with little practical value capitalizing on the widespread sense of alienation and impotence.

And if growing their market has unintended, negative consequences - like the use of their product to end human lives without just cause - that is of little concern to the makers and sellers of weapons. They have spent millions of dollars and countless man-hours crafting a weapon culture that foregrounds liberty and personal security while obscuring consumerism, pleasure, and profit. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And if they do it with guns that is because they're irresponsible, or because they're evil, or because they're mentally ill. They're mentally ill because they've taken the fantasy one step too far. A stable, noble, heroic gun owner is one who only fires his weapon in self-defense, or in preparation for self-defense while imagining himself a hero, neutralizing a hostile target. A noble, heroic gun owner must never admit that firing his weapon gives him pleasure; to the contrary, firing his weapon is only done of necessity, with gravity yet without regret, for a hero only does what is necessary, however sad his work might be. But these people who commit crimes with weapons, these are people who have lost control. People who are sick. People who have used their weapon(s) selfishly at the expense of innocent others. In fact, heroic gun owners are all the more important because of these sick, unrestrained individuals; the antidote to evildoers is to arm more heroes capable of neutralizing them, protecting liberty and restoring safety if necessary, when necessary.

For those who profit from this gun culture, mass shootings - or even non-mass shootings - are hardly a cause for concern. They drive the discourse of liberty and security and they make the legal weapon, in the hands of a hero-defender, a more valued commodity. When pro-gun lobbyists ramp up their efforts to protect the rights of gun owners in the aftermath of tragedies, they do so not for the liberty of gun owners or for the safety of the public, they do so to protect their industry and their profits. They may stand behind the second amendment, behind the image of the virile hunter or the noble hero protecting his family and property against criminal or oppressor, but they do this for their own enrichment, not for the public good. They exploit our primal responses and our deep-seated cultural fantasies for their own gain. And their greed fits right in with our selfish need to feel good by any means available; they reinforce one another.

These incessant debates about gun control and gun freedom miss the point entirely. These should be debates about gun profit and gun pleasure. These should be debates about the culture of valor and violence that has been built up around weapons to sell more of them. These should be debates about why lethal weapons are marketed and treated as adult toys and used to end children's lives.

If we're going to politicize tragedy, and really we must, let's go all the way. Let's not debate lax and unenforceable regulations, let's debate whether anyone should be making a profit by building killing machines. Let's debate whether anyone should be building killing machines in the first place. Let's not talk about ending gun violence, let's talk about ending guns.
2012-12-14 10:50:22 PM  
2 votes:
Because I must:

imageshack.us 


You're most welcome.
2012-12-14 10:48:00 PM  
2 votes:

KiwDaWabbit: I'm guessing that, by now, this has been posted several times. I didn't go back and look. So, apologies in advance.

But, this is worth a look if you haven't seen it:

26 Moments That Restored Our Faith In Humanity This Year


i1182.photobucket.com
2012-12-14 10:32:21 PM  
2 votes:

Demonrats: or would you rather trust the most hedonistic person who thinks that there is no consequence to his actions


I forgot to add: atheists like me believe that this is the only shot we get. There is no 'later' to get to. So we try and not be assholes cause if we only get to go to one party, why fark it up?

It's the people who regard life as some sort of trial run that scare me.
2012-12-14 10:23:42 PM  
2 votes:
www.bitlogic.com
2012-12-14 10:22:22 PM  
2 votes:
Why is it always innocent people that get massacred, like little kids, or moviegoers, or teens at school, and never anybody like the farking bankers on Wall Street, the scum-sucking leeches on K Street, or farking Congress or something?

That, and it's way past time to grow up about farking crazy we are in this country with our hardon for guns and violence.
2012-12-14 10:16:40 PM  
2 votes:

Demonrats:
Part of today's economic issues stem from the lack of a moral compass.


Wife and I were talking about that today. Maybe we do, maybe we don't, either way it would not stop someone who snapped and was bent on destruction. Sometimes bad things are going to happen. We can try to catch them before they do, but there is no solution that will catch them all, it just isn't going to happen. If you took away this guys guns he would have found some other way to do what he did. How hard would it be to fill his car full of gasoline cans and drive it straight into one of the classrooms? Nobody gets shot, but now you have an entire classroom full of kids dieing in a horrific inferno. Anyone that is trying to hijack this into a templar for their crusade is a shameless, opportunistic charlatan.
2012-12-14 10:13:53 PM  
2 votes:

if_i_really_have_to: COMALite J: • Fact: Prior to the invention of SSRIs, multiple-random-victim premeditated school killings (regardless of weapon type: note I did not limit it to just ‶shootings") happened on average about once per decade. Multiple-random-victim premeditated killings regardless of where they took place (schools or otherwise) were not much more common.

FACT Every other country in the world also uses SSRIs, but seems unable to boast America's body count, or even attempted body count except China which has how many people?

FACT Maybe there's just something really, really wrong with America.

Maybe your cult of individuality doesn't foster a very supportive environment. Maybe your doctors are lazy and/or incompetent. Maybe surviving in your society is like a war. Maybe something about your culture leads mentally ill people to be more likely to suffer psychotic breaks that just don't happen in other cultures. Maybe you're just such dicks that your own countrymen really, really want to kill a lot of you.

I see you're conveniently ignoring the fact that of the 17 school massacres in America only 6 were committed by teenagers. Of those six, two were pre-planned attacks committed by two persons so you can't really blame hypermania for those. Of the remaining four:

- One was a head-injured Nazi native American (WTF?)
- One was later said to be paranoid schizophrenic
- One had no history of mental illness, and pre-planned the attack (made bombs)
- One announced plans to carry out the killing a week beforehand

So, none of them appear to have anything to do with SSRIs or hypermania. Do you want me to move on to the ones in their 20s?

FACT Maybe the sociopathically self-obsessed and self-interested culture fostered by the "Me Generation" started in the late 70s hasn't worked out that well for you.

/Yeah that's right, I found a way to blame the Baby Boomers


Other nations have indeed had similar massacres. Not as many, perhaps, but they do happen. Need I remind you of Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane, Scotland? Today′s tragedy is eerily similar to his: adult male kills ~1½ dozen kindergartners (and their teacher) in an elementary school, then kills himself.

Nice Straw Man on the teenagers thing. Nowhere in my posts did I even hint that I was limiting my discussion to incidents by teenagers. I specifically mentioned the postal worker rampage of the 1980s multiple times, for instance. How many teenagers worked for the postal service?

Any more words or concepts you wanna put in my mouth that I never said?

And yes, hypermania can indeed be blamed for the pre-planned attacks. Do you even know what hypermania is? It′s not insanity. It′s not schizophrenia (a paranoid schizophrenic can indeed develop hypermania, especially if treated with the wrong medication, or a medication is withdrawn from too rapidly, but hypermania is not in and of itself schizophrenia). It′s not someone just suddenly snapping. It′s a very specific mental condition. It can last for a substantial time. It does not cause loss of reasoning faculties, etc. You can carry on an extended rational conversation with a hypermaniac and have absolutely no clue that s/he has hypermania.

Hypermania is, as the name implies, an extreme mania, like unto megalomania and monomania combined and amped up to the nth° on refined Kryptonite-based steroids from LexCorp Labs on Smallville. The hypermaniac has an enormously inflated sense of self, to the extent of discounting any considerations for other people. Any injury, insult, or slight against him/her, real or imagined, is blown out of all proportion. All feelings of emotional attachment to others are reduced to near nil or even 180° diametrically reversed (the people the person used to love before the hypermania hits become the people s/he most wants dead, usually due to feeling utterly betrayed over some imagined slight [as stated before]). The conscience is completely muted. No guilt. No remorse.

And this is vital: a key symptom is (this is the actual term used in the medical literature) ‶overproduction of ideas." Far from being unable to plan and carry out such a detailed scheme as these tragedies, the hypermaniac experiences significant enhancement of the abilities needed to do precisely that. Pre-planning is not a counter-indication of hypermania ― on the contrary, it′s part and parcel of it!

I have yet to read of any such incident other than straight-up acts of war or terrorism (e.g. Beslan) that didn′t fit the description of hypermania to a T. None whatsoever.

Look: I′m trying to find solutions to the problems here, not point blame at culture or generations (though I′m no big fan of the Baby Boomers myself, despite being one myself). Sorry, but wholesale renovation of the entire American culture isn′t a viable solution.

Besides, your attempt to blame the culture and ‶‵Me′ Generation" doesn′t explain what I′ve pointed out repeatedly in these threads: the modern rash of school shooting rampages (premeditated multiple random victim, not gang violence nor one-on-one murders that happen to take place at a school) began suddenly and skyrocketed extremely steeply and rapidly within just two years.

We′ve had our culture of individualism all along. We had the ‶‵Me′ Generation" long before that. We′ve had violent media (movie and TV Westerns dating back to the B&W days) all along. We had children playing very immersive and violent games since long before computers and video games existed (when I was a kid, we′d play ‶Cops & Robbers": we′d sight along a reasonably realistic toy gun′s gunsight, aiming it right at one of our playmates [at a real live child!], and squeeze the trigger. In the case of a cap gun, we′d even get audio feedback ― and then the kid, our playmate, would enact a death scene as realistic as kids could be expected to do), yet they didn′t go on to shoot up their schools.

There is nothing else that happened around that time (well, one that may well be a contributing factor, but you won′t like it) that could explain such a sudden steep statistical spike. This is not some nice smooth Gaussian bell curve we′re talking about here. Throughout our history, prior to the development of SSRIs, such incidents averaged one per decade! Less than 2¼ years after the first one (February 2, 1996), there was one month (May, 1998) that had two nearly consecutive days (just one day apart) in which both days had multiple such incidents! It doesn′t get much steeper than that!

The other contributing factor I alluded to? The Gun-Free School Zones Act signed by then-President Bill Clinton, which banned guns in and near schools nationwide, took full effect mere months before the February 2, 1996 Moses Lake, WA incident. It was designed to prevent such incidents, yet 100% of the modern rash happened after that, beginning practically immediately after that!

Didn′t WORK, DID IT!?!?
2012-12-14 09:46:19 PM  
2 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: 80,000 people die every year in the U.S. from alcohol related events. Reaction... meh who cares
30,000 from car accidents.. meh
3,000,000 die around the world from std's. meh
16,000 children die each DAY from starvation.. meh
1,000,000 die in the middle east because of a lie.. meh


imageshack.us

"Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gang banger, will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all, part of the plan. But when I say that one, little old mayor school full of children will die, well then everyone loses their minds!"

/focus on mental health improvement, not the taking away of guns
2012-12-14 09:00:57 PM  
2 votes:

justtray: And from the other thread...

I hear this argument over and over from people trying to distract from gun control, but the fact remains there's no way to force people into mental health care. How do you even identify them? Pretty sure the all of the high kill count shooters, va tech, this, dark knight all had clean records before the incidents.

Controlling guns is the method. Time to sacrifice your questionable freedom so many, many others may live.

If you can't answer this you don't have an argument for "mental health is the problem"


Maybe if there were a place people could walk in and talk to somebody about their problems before they became serious problems it might prevent something like this.

But right now we have a mental health care system that is a joke and only for profit. Mainly to sell behavioral modification drugs to the children of well-off people.

Or you could talk to your local preacher and get raped in the ass AND in the head.
2012-12-14 08:35:49 PM  
2 votes:

pedrop357: Even multi-fatality, 100 car pileups don't trigger calls for a "conversation on vehicle control", nor does the number of car crash deaths each year which far outstrip those of guns.

It's only guns that are subject to this easy way out scapegoating.


Ok, I'll bite this one. Please, oh Oracle of all that is true and wise, enlighten us. How many of those vehicular deaths were INTENTIONAL? When we see this level of DELIBERATE vehicular homicide, THEN it will be time to agree that you may have an argument.
For now, you're a dipshiat.
2012-12-14 08:34:02 PM  
2 votes:

Gyrfalcon: It's not the guns. It's not the crazies. It's not the laws, or lack of them. It's our collective mind-set.

It's the mind-set that refuses to proactively acknowledge that people have access to guns and this is not going to change; but what CAN be changed--easily and without too much effort--is disallowing them access to the interiors of schools. What can be changed is our realization that the price of living in free society is NOT walking around in constant paranoia, but simply acknowledging that some areas need an extra layer of protection, locating where that layer can be put without inconveniencing us too severely, and then putting it there as seamlessly as possible.

Today's tragedy could have been avoided with one simple statement: "No, Mr. Nutcase, you can't go back to your mom's classroom until the security guard can escort you," and one armed escort. Neither was in place, so 20 kids are dead. The former would have cost nothing, the second, the price of one person's paycheck. However, the change in THINKING would have needed to be profound--admitting that there are crazy people out there who look JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Who could even be someone's son or daughter. Who can kill kids. And we need to stop them. I know that's a tough thing to think about. But it needs doing.


Great, now you've turned schools into a locked and barred detention facility.

What will you do about the bus lines? Will you establish a broader perimeter double fence around the parking lot, with concertina wire and a no-man's-land between? Will you go with patrol dogs, or just stick with sniper towers?

What will you do about the playground? Oh, I'm sorry -- kids outside? What was I thinking?

What will you do about the malls? The theaters?

Further armoring our schools is an irrational response. It's at least as irrational as the TSA's security theater, it would probably be more expensive, and it probably stands less chance of being effective.
2012-12-14 08:29:20 PM  
2 votes:
Mostly the same tired, invalid arguments for no gun control in here.

The new stupid deflection though is "better mental health!" Yes, that may help a little. Lets force everyone with a mental disorder to remain locked up in a psych ward until they promise to not kill anyone.

I really believe you're being honest too when you're vehemently against gun control as 'facism' but advocate forced institutionalization... The best part would be when you gun nuts realize you're the ones getting institutionalized. Thinking you need multiple guns to defend yourself is definitely wa trait of a deranged mind.
2012-12-14 08:28:48 PM  
2 votes:
Had a bit of a breakdown earlier, but when I read that as "jessicas tatas", then laughed at myself, I figure, well, the bourbon must have been a good decision tonight.

My kindergartner is safe and sound and believes me when I tell him monsters aren't real.

I think I'm going to start being a lot nicer to people.

We saw an owl tonight. It was beautiful.

I wouldn't put my kids in a school with armed guards at every door. Pragmatic or not, that's now how we live dammit.

Or maybe it is and I'm just waxing nostalgic. Did 12/14 change everything like 9/11 did?
2012-12-14 08:05:21 PM  
2 votes:
I was taught at a very early age that rights came with responsibilities.

So... What are your Second Amendment responsibilities.
2012-12-14 08:01:30 PM  
2 votes:

Kit Fister: TheDirtyNacho: Gun nuts, your lifestyle is creepy, dangerous and rapidly becoming unacceptable.

"Arm the teachers". Yeah, I can just see some petite 24 year old kindergarten teacher packing lethal heat in case "current gun laws" fail yet again. Better get her to the range for weekly target practice as well.

/madness on madness

I'm glad that you don't have to own a gun nor do you get to tell anyone else what to do.


arm the teachers??? As a K teacher the only farkin gun I want in my room is a glue gun. It is a useless and beyond dumb idea. First the gun would have to be locked with the bullets not with it, in a hidden place that they kids wouldn't ever be able to get to. So that would be me a whole lot of good in a case like this. My job is not to play dirty harry it is to keep those kids as calm as I can and get them to safety
2012-12-14 07:51:34 PM  
2 votes:

tetsoushima: Has anybody mentioned that Mike Huckabee is an ass? Also, I can't handle this so I'm going to go talk to 6 philosophers and pass out.


Huckabee can suck on all of the disciples' dicks. Actual quote from him: "the crime was no surprise because we have 'systematically removed God' from public schools." Hey FAT ASS, if we mortals possessed the ability to 'remove God' from anywhere then maybe that's telling you there IS NO GOD. Now STFU and go play Cat Scratch Fever with The Nuge again.
2012-12-14 07:51:28 PM  
2 votes:
The "it's not guns, it's people" argument is so tremendously stupid.

The more damaging the weapon in your possession, the more damage you can do. No one could give a rat's ass if people in Tehran have guns aimed at Israel, it's missiles and airplanes that matter in that instance. The kids in China were wounded, not slaughtered.

I could not be less concerned if my hateful neighbor has a hammer. Same guy with more advanced weaponry, I'm concerned.

But, the real problem as I see it is that people acquire guns and then have no means of controlling who has access to them. I don't think untrained 20 year old males, at the peak of their life cycle of testosterone and societal rage - especially one with a diagnosed personality disorder - should have access to guns, ammo and military style clothing.

Just saying. We went through a huge gun-buying spree in the last couple of years - a lot of schools are going to be shot up, so don't be surprised and if you want to continue to use the "it's people" argument, then don't complain that people hate other people.

And the more hate we have, the more motivation for killing. The world's "most advanced" or "richest" society has devised a recipe to terrorize itself - not the first time this has happened, won't be the last.
2012-12-14 07:51:06 PM  
2 votes:

pedrop357: cegorach: Dear America,

Why the FARK do you idiots keep referring to a document written in

SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY-ONE

as if it is a goddamn holy writ handed down as an irrefutable aspect of reality?

Are you even aware of how twisted your nation has become by its slavish (and wildly fantastical) adoration of its Founding Fathers?

Last time I checked, that same document prevents the government from infringing upon your speech. It also has not been repealed, so it still applied.


Well no, it doesn't.

And it probably doesn't in your case either, should you find yourself in opposition to those with enough power behind them.

Both aspects were nice ideas for SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY ONE.

But it is no longer SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY ONE.

That was a while ago and the world has changed somewhat - hopefully with humanity having learned a few more things.

Maybe time for people to actually see things for what they are - an ancient document which needs major revision to have a bearing on the modern world - and not the highly politicised fantasy they have become.

You people genuinely have no idea how batshiat crazy the sane parts of the world think you are, do you?

Every time you have your weekly massacre and it all boils down to your insane devotion to a mythical Founding Father fantasy reality, we just have to stare in amazement as otherwise intelligent people have the most absolutely inane and retarded 'arguments' when the answers are clear and obvious to anyone outside of the economic/political circlejerk that gun ownership in the US has become.

Think of the most retarded, racist, dipshiat caricature of another nation you can think of.

That's how the civilised world sees America, just with a lot more dead children. And not just your own by the way.
2012-12-14 07:45:17 PM  
2 votes:

thisisarepeat: I've been in a cave all day, so GODDAMNITSOfarkINGMUCH!1!!!11111!!11

I'm already broke, Christmas is next farking week, and NOW BECAUSE OF THIS SHIAT STAIN, I have to send a check to the farkING NRA!

I knew I was going to have to pay for having a good day yesterday.


If this prompts you to send a check to the NRA, then you deserve to be broke. Fark you. And the NRA.
2012-12-14 07:31:37 PM  
2 votes:

USP .45: jso2897: This person is either a loon or a false-flag. He does not speak for normal gun owners like myself or 90% of America's gun owners.

what in your 'normal gun owner' life do you disagree with me about?


The fact that you are posting in this thread. Please go away, you asshole. Nobody needs your insensitive, self-centered whining about you pissant "rights" at this time, you shallow f**king jerkoff.
2012-12-14 07:29:49 PM  
2 votes:
There are over 300 million guns in the US - that's approximately one for every man, woman and child in the country. When do we say "enough"? At what point do we realise that it's probably a BAD idea for there to be SO MANY guns that any farking lunatic can easily get access to several? Meaningful gun control is DESPERATELY needed.

/SO glad I moved to Australia, and this is one of the MAIN reasons I did so. Fark the 2nd Amendment. It needs to be farking repealed.
2012-12-14 07:28:45 PM  
2 votes:

COMALite J: • Fact: Prior to the invention of SSRIs, multiple-random-victim premeditated school killings (regardless of weapon type: note I did not limit it to just ‶shootings") happened on average about once per decade. Multiple-random-victim premeditated killings regardless of where they took place (schools or otherwise) were not much more common.


FACT Every other country in the world also uses SSRIs, but seems unable to boast America's body count, or even attempted body count except China which has how many people?

FACT Maybe there's just something really, really wrong with America.

Maybe your cult of individuality doesn't foster a very supportive environment. Maybe your doctors are lazy and/or incompetent. Maybe surviving in your society is like a war. Maybe something about your culture leads mentally ill people to be more likely to suffer psychotic breaks that just don't happen in other cultures. Maybe you're just such dicks that your own countrymen really, really want to kill a lot of you.

I see you're conveniently ignoring the fact that of the 17 school massacres in America only 6 were committed by teenagers. Of those six, two were pre-planned attacks committed by two persons so you can't really blame hypermania for those. Of the remaining four:

- One was a head-injured Nazi native American (WTF?)
- One was later said to be paranoid schizophrenic
- One had no history of mental illness, and pre-planned the attack (made bombs)
- One announced plans to carry out the killing a week beforehand

So, none of them appear to have anything to do with SSRIs or hypermania. Do you want me to move on to the ones in their 20s?

FACT Maybe the sociopathically self-obsessed and self-interested culture fostered by the "Me Generation" started in the late 70s hasn't worked out that well for you.

/Yeah that's right, I found a way to blame the Baby Boomers
2012-12-14 07:27:55 PM  
2 votes:
Gun nuts, your lifestyle is creepy, dangerous and rapidly becoming unacceptable.

"Arm the teachers". Yeah, I can just see some petite 24 year old kindergarten teacher packing lethal heat in case "current gun laws" fail yet again. Better get her to the range for weekly target practice as well.

/madness on madness
2012-12-14 07:26:26 PM  
2 votes:

jso2897: USP .45: jso2897: 'Fess up - you're a false-flag operative from the Bradey outfit, aren't you?

so...assuming there will be significant societal breakdown if there is no infrastructure for weeks or more makes be a secret gun control advocate how?

Because you are trying to create the impression that gun rights advocates are loons who entertain doomsday fantasies like those you are relating now. We do not.
You are trying to make the Second Amendment look like a bad idea.


Totally a foreigner from another country here, and sure it might be off-base, but shouldn't the second amendment mean you have the right to keep and bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia?

I mean, putting well-regulated militias in charge of gun ownership would at least mean someone has the responsibility to keep dangerous people away from guns, right?
2012-12-14 07:20:47 PM  
2 votes:

Kazrath: thisispete: GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?

If there isn't to be a conversation about gun control now, when is it going to happen? What is the window on that? Because this kind of thing happens all too frequently.

Why? Gun control is not the issue. Gun control is a bandaid. Way not to talk about the real issue which is mental illness, poverty and brainwashing.


because a crazy guy sitting at home in his chair is just a crazy guy. A crazy guy with an arsenal is a mass murderer.

See the difference?
2012-12-14 07:20:02 PM  
2 votes:

tony41454: The gunman shot himself inside the school. His older brother is now talking to police. The police believe the older brother is not involved. Adam (the shooter) was mentally disabled. He stole the guns from his mother (who had legally purchased them) and took his brother's ID (to further confuse the issue).

Obama is right--this needs to change. But not his way. In Israel teachers carry guns and provide protection for their children...in America, we provide condoms. This whole situation would have turned out different if there had been an armed, trained teacher with a .9mm there at the school. We don't need more gun laws, we need more armed citizens to prevent the loonies from doing this.


The problem isn't that Americans HAVE guns - the Israelis and the Swiss have more - the problem is we LIKE the Goddamn things too much - and believe in them. And that's a sickness.
2012-12-14 06:59:32 PM  
2 votes:

TiiiMMMaHHH: Some mentally inferior farktard


And as long as people like you think this way things like this will keep happening.
2012-12-14 06:58:51 PM  
2 votes:

Virtue: Kome

From your link

"As David Lamp writes at Cato, "In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel 'have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.'""


And Israel and Switzerland also have a few things the US most assuredly does not:

a) All able-bodied males between 18 and 40 are considered a part of a national defense force, and all males (in fact, all persons in Israel that do not have a specific medical exemption or an exemption due to being Hasidim) are in fact required to have military training for at least two years--in other words, there is a national MANDATORY draft in both countries for which very few practical exemptions exist, and which DO involve mandatory psychological profiles of soldiers--severe mental illness WILL result in 4F status and one of the few legal exemptions to military service.)

b) In Switzerland, all able-bodied men are required to have full combat military training at least on a yearly basis (because of the fact that anyone who is able-bodied is considered to be part of what is essentially the National Guard). Again, severely mentally ill people are exempted from this and are NOT allowed to possess firearms. (The situation is actually similar in Israel.) In other words, people who own weapons (in a direct parallel to the original intent of the Second Amendment in the US) are in fact required to be specifically trained in their use, including safe storage.

c) Both Israel and Switzerland have universal national healthcare for their citizens, including aggressive treatment of mental illness; they also (in general) also have more leeway to involuntarily commit individuals who may be seen as an imminent threat (their equivalents to the "Baker Act" don't require the crazy person to commit an act of violence first, and if the Aurora shooter had been in both countries the psychiatrists would have been required by law to start commitment proceedings).

Not exactly comparable.

/that said, farking shame and tragic what happened today--I'm not a big "kid person" but want to give parents a hug
//even Khorne would be sickened by this; Khorne doesn't usually approve of taking blood from those who can't fight back
2012-12-14 06:53:33 PM  
2 votes:
I always get confused in these threads.

Is the reason that Jesus and George Franklin signed gun ownership into the Ten Constitutions because:

a) Americuns need to defend their homes from crazed Negro Gang-Bangers with Do-rags who need them some white woman

or

b) When the communists activate their Mongolian Candidate Fartbongo and he uses the Death Panels to make everyone UN-controlled zombies only bootstrappy assault weapon owners stand a chance of survival

or

c) THE BRITISH ARE COMING THE BRITISH ARE COMING


Since I come from a country where we don't even need to have pants-on-head retarded arguments about phallic gun-toys in the wake of dozens of dead children, you can understand my confusion when the wharrgaarbl coming out of the Land Of The Free equates to the above statements in a number of different guises.

In other news, damn glad I don't live in a backward-ass nation where that kind of shiat happens due to successful brainwashing of the populace. That goes includes the US along with large parts of the Middle East and Africa. I know it's probably Darwinism in action but really.
2012-12-14 06:42:43 PM  
2 votes:

Magorn: But this is farking IT. This has to stop . People need to be able to go to the movies, or shopping, children need to be able to go to school without worrying that some maniac is going to end their life on a whim. This cannot be a regular feature of a civilized society PERIOD. NOW I personally do not give a flying fark whether we accomplish this by making guns way less available to people or mental health care much more available, but we've at least got to do one or the other, and we need to do it yesterday


THIS
2012-12-14 06:32:45 PM  
2 votes:

Time Masheen: I don't know either. It's like we're all so damn cynical, so revved up ALL the time, sensationalist media in our faces - we've forgotten how to slow down, or stop and think and BREATHE for a second before turning on each other. It doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't. This doesn't make sense.. but I'm trying to put my thoughts into words right now.


Thanks. Just for being on the same page.

Most people I know hate other people and I don't know why. They are perpetually angry that other people are in their way, inconveniencing them, slowing them down, taking what they don't deserve. I don't feel this way. I think this is a very American perspective on one's fellow man, and I'm afraid it contributes to the level and type of violence we saw again today: unfocused, unmotivated aggression towards people. Not persons; just people in general.

I need to be reminded that there are others out there who don't look at the world through the lens of mistrust and anger. Really not sure why I turn to Fark of all places... but thanks for sharing the sentiment. Means a lot.
2012-12-14 05:51:55 PM  
2 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children.


i116.photobucket.com
2012-12-14 05:43:45 PM  
2 votes:

sprawl15: Dusk-You-n-Me: Fark It: OK. Tell us how you'll make it "better."

Tell me why we can't.

I'd argue that gun violence generally has a cause. The difference in firearm murder rate between Switzerland and the US speaks to that - they have easier access than the US does yet they don't have the same problem.

I'm not claiming to know what the cause is, but it heavily suggests that simple gun legislation to reduce access is only addressing a symptom rather than the problem.


I think it comes down to cultural issues. I may be wrong, but I think in Switzerland, it comes down to "I own a weapon to protect us all" vs. the "I own a weapon to protect only me" in the US. I dunno. Might take a long time to figure out.
2012-12-14 05:41:24 PM  
2 votes:

kemosabe: Man, I heard about this at a work Christmas party.


That's the last place I would want to hear about this.
2012-12-14 05:36:49 PM  
2 votes:
every one of these threads about a massacre makes me hate gun nuts even more. i get that you love your gun and it makes you feel better about being a wuss with a baby dick but do you have to minimize how farked up it is that 20 little kids just got shot? you guys are like tea partiers, in that you refuse to compromise and just yell how persecuted you are.
2012-12-14 05:33:50 PM  
2 votes:

iq_in_binary: I don't begrudge anybody who uses a Garand or M1A to hunt. It's a good solid rifle with good accuracy and handling characteristics. And the ability to follow up QUICKLY to put the animal down in case the first shot doesn't have the desired effect is in my opinion more humane. Nobody is perfect, I know I'm a little shaky when I run into my first harvest of the season, and while I may pride myself on my patience and determination to put the animal down humanely with the first shot, I can easily see myself missing one day. Same goes for AR-15 platforms.

Older hunters are taking to semi-auto platforms in droves for many reasons, semi auto firearms naturally have less felt recoil, are usually cheaper than purpose built hunting rifles (any of my rifles are going to put you back $1500 just to START), and are easier to use. Unless you're Mr. He-Man perfect shot, you don't have any place to question another hunter's choice in hunting gear.


Today I learned that a deer suffering for 10 seconds is more important than the lives of 18 kindergartners.
2012-12-14 05:31:42 PM  
2 votes:

ToxicMunkee: Are you one of those people who thinks being shot while wearing body armor is like having someone throw a pebble at you? You have a good chance of having ribs broken, which could at the very least stun the assailant, and give innocents time to flee.

No. But I also doubt that a guy set on killing as many people as he can will be stunned all that long. Especially if he's standing in the doorway. Where the f*ck are people going to go?



The biggest hole in the "arm everybody" argument is the fantasy that simply having a gun makes you a highly trained tactical and self-defense expert capable of taking down a determined maniac on a rampage, who has the benefit of surprise and planning. The fact is, the lizard brain takes over in situations like this, and gun or not, your lizard brain screams "RUN!" -- and unless you're trained police or military, you do exactly that.
2012-12-14 05:31:28 PM  
2 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: BraveNewCheneyWorld: chuckufarlie: you can use a handgun for self protection. Assault weapons just don't perform that function very well.

For defense while on your own property, they can be preferable to a handgun.

If you cannot defend your property with a handgun, an assault rifle is not going to help. Maybe you should get some target practice so you hit what you aim at,

You know pretty much nothing about guns or real life combat realities. You should probably stop talking, because there's several situations in which a rifle is preferable. For starters, the chance of a one shot kill is dramatically increased. If it's a home invasion involving numerous people, you have the option for larger magazines. If the invaders are wearing body armor, as some do, handgun rounds will not effectively neutralize them. If even trained police officers miss many of their shots in a stress situation, how much more so would an untrained civilian, rifles are naturally easier to aim.


I find it amazing how infrequently I have to defend my home with force.

How farking often do a group of several people carrying weapons storm your home? Why aren't you sleeping in a panic room?
2012-12-14 05:23:34 PM  
2 votes:

spidermilk: Also, I don't want to steal everyone's guns or anything, but I'm sick of people saying "you're going to use a tragedy to talk about gun control? That is sick!"

No, I wanted to talk about it before but nobody cares until innocent people are shot. Same way with mental health care.


This.
2012-12-14 05:23:27 PM  
2 votes:

buckler: Jon iz teh kewl: styckx: I was put on SSRI's this summer (I'm 35). 3 months later I told my doctor to eat a dick and threw the bottle in the trash. I hated them. I skept all the time, I felt like a zombie, my thoughts empty... I hated it. The doctor wanted me to try a different one.. I refused.. I told her I'd rather be naturally depressed and able to deal then be unnaturally medicated and not know how to deal.

same with me except i was on anti-psychotics for "hearing voices" . his words not mine. i never told him i "heard voices" or "hallucinated"

Maybe time for a new doc.


Here's my solution to this problem and it might even cure the crazy-shooter problem. It's how I cured my mental illness.

SSRIs are a class of medication and they're all a little different; Zoloft is a bit different from Prozac which is different from Paxil. I had to try them all, and eventually found that Zoloft worked best. It took a long time, and several different doctors, some of whom listened to me and some who didn't. It took a lot of patience on my part and massive support from my family. It also took a lot of research for me to find out that I didn't ONLY need antidepressants, but due to having bipolar disorder, I needed mood stabilizers. Finding out which ones took another long, painful process of trial and error before we found that topamax was the best one. It's not my favorite, but I'm saving Lamictal for if the Topamax doesn't work.

So anyway, my solution is that we need to stop pretending that one pill for everyone is going to fix everything. Mental illness isn't a one-size-fix-all disease. It can take months or years of very patient trial and error to find out what the issue is and what medication(s) will allow the patient to function normally. It requires the doctor to actually LISTEN to the patient when he or she says "This med isn't working, let's try something else." Sometimes--often, in fact--it means the patient can't work while trying out new meds. He or she may need hospitalization or home care and constant monitoring. In other words, a total revamping of health insurance and mental health care. It means requiring both the patient and society to admit that mental illness is NOT some kind of moral failing or inability to "take responsibility" for themselves, whatever that means, but that they are sick and need care.

Expensive? Maybe. More so than 28 dead kids? Not at all.
2012-12-14 05:20:22 PM  
2 votes:
Meanwhile in Michigan, from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/michigan-gun-bill-nra-backgro und-checks_n_2295413.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

A bill pushed by the National Rifle Association to eliminate criminal background checks for many handgun buyers in Michigan was rejected by state lawmakers Wednesday, after a heavy lobbying effort by law enforcement officials, municipal leaders and gun control advocates.

The bill would have repealed a state law mandating all handgun buyers pass a background check program run by the Michigan State Police, designed to block felons, domestic abusers and the severely mentally ill from obtaining a handgun license. Federal law bars felons from obtaining firearms, but does not mandate private sellers conduct criminal background checks on gun buyers.
2012-12-14 05:09:40 PM  
2 votes:

Chummer45: For the record, my comment in the previous thread was poorly executed sarcasm. My point was that the bullshiat that gun nuts tell themselves over and over again (guns don't kill people; the second amendment protects me from tyranny; gun control only increases violence) is really just their way of ignoring the obvious: we have a severe problem with gun violence in this country that is exacerbated by extremely lax gun laws, but there's a large segment of the population that doesn't want the government interfering with their hobby.

I'm a gun owner, and enjoy the hobby. But I think it is way too easy to buy and sell handguns and semiautomatic rifles in this country, and would fully support common sense things like closing the gun show loophole, and reinstating the assault weapons ban.

Flame me if you want. Maybe more gun control would help, maybe it wouldn't. What I do know is that you can't commit a mass shooting without a gun. And it sickens me that these shootings keep on happening. We have to do something about it.




Simply put... don't make it more difficult for me to purchase a firearm. Considering all of the stories about nuts shooting up places, I carry in order to protect myself. The gun nuts that will shoot up schools and malls WANT the law-abiding people to be unarmed. It makes it a lot easier to do whatever they want without interference.

THIS is why we scoff at people who want to limit gun ownership. If there were no guns, the nutcases will find other ways to cause chaos and death. They are looking for attention because of their mental issues and low self-esteem. They copy the shooting stories they see on the news because they see how much publicity the shooter gets each time. How about we change the way the media handles such stories? Tell them to quit labeling every gun as an "assault-type weapon" and interviewing the shooter's friends, family, classmates, etc. as they say what a nice, quiet guy he was.....

The fearlessness of committing crimes with a gun would be less glamorous if the nutcases thought some of the people they target might also have guns. Their desire to shoot dozens of people and go out in a blaze of glory might turn into a couple attempted shots before someone shoots them and drops them on their ass. Then they won't be the top news of the day and it might not seem as glamorous. More media stories about failed massacres would give nothing to fuel the copycats, but it might deter them.

Guns do NOT kill people. A gun is a machine. It has to be operated by a person to shoot. People die when someone with mental problems or no conscience wants to kill others for attention. Law abiding people hear about yet another shooting, then check to make sure their jacket is completely covering the gun they carry. Making gun ownership sound like a criminal act only empowers the scummy criminals that prey upon us. Don't make people afraid to defend themselves in fear that they might be labeled a criminal.

This is like the War on Drugs. Ooh, lets get rid of all the drugs... then people can't use them. You will never get rid of all the drugs because the people that want them will ensure the drugs are always available. They never look at the people themselves and figure out how to convince them to live without putting that crap into their bodies.

Take away guns and only the criminals will have guns. And they will have even more power.
2012-12-14 05:05:19 PM  
2 votes:

Jon iz teh kewl: i was Baker Acted a certain number of times.


And you don't think that may indicate a problem? I'm not passing judgement on you, because I know some people who've been railroaded through the system on flimsy grounds as well, but I would think it should at least spark some introspection, is all.

I wish you only the best.
2012-12-14 05:04:07 PM  
2 votes:
FFS! I wasn't feeling well and took a nap. Woke up to this. How farkin' terribly sad!

A couple thoughts...

We don't need more gun laws. A person who would do this doesn't care about laws.

We don't need greater school security. Our schools don't need to resemble prisons and that still won't stop a person who would do something like this.

We need to take mental health seriously in this country. We need to take the stigma out of it and get serious about just how pervasive psychological disorder is. Psychological screening and treatment should be as normal and accepted as going to your GP for a checkup. It's for damned sure at least as important.
2012-12-14 04:59:42 PM  
2 votes:

Jon iz teh kewl: gun control? why don't we have SSRI control


You can take my SSRIs from my COLD. DEAD. HANDS.

And, by the way, skipster, unless you are just trolling, they DO have SSRI control. It's called a prescription.

Moran.
2012-12-14 04:56:23 PM  
2 votes:
O great asteroid in the depths of space,
O Yellowstone Super-volcano,
O incurable disease vectors,

please take us, the human race
we are too sick to survive
Amen.
2012-12-14 04:55:20 PM  
2 votes:

Moderator: At this point in time information is coming in fast and we understand that you may want to link to a Facebook page or other information about the shooter.  Please try to refrain from doing so.  It is personal information, and it may link to innocent people unrelated to this tragedy.  Thank you for your consideration.


Good suggestion.

An additional suggestion... as many people tend to skim Fark.com comment threads. (Yes, guilty here). Anyway to auto-highlight moderators going forward so their messages catch a skimmer's eye when scrolling at warp speed? I mean, not just for me but for anybody automatically?
2012-12-14 04:52:19 PM  
2 votes:

DjangoStonereaver: But he was right about the .223/5.56mm round: it is designed to inflict maximal damage against a
human target out of proportion to its size (it tumbles in flight and fragments on impact)



ROFL No.

The round does NOT tumble in flight ....any round that did this would not hit its intended target.

The 223 round was around for a very LONG time before the the DoD adopted its use.

Implementable rounds are forbidden by the Geneva convention so they are NOT used by the military

So every single point you made was wrong.
2012-12-14 04:49:40 PM  
2 votes:
For the folks who are asking how this guy got into the school...

I don't know exactly how this school is set up, but at my kids' schools, you cannot get in without being "buzzed in". All the doors are locked -- they open from the inside, but not the outside. At my little one's school, the administrative team can clearly see from the office area who is at the door. At my older one's school, there is a camera at the main entrance.

If this school has a similar set up, my guess is that the guy took advantage of the fact that he was known to the people working at the school.

:(
2012-12-14 04:44:59 PM  
2 votes:

Virtue: BronyMedic: //Beautiful, beautiful weapon.

/agree

Was pointing out to this guy who calls himself pro gun but anti AR 15....total contradiction.


Can we just agree that responsible gun owners need to keep close tabs on their weapons, and keep them secure when not in use?

I can understand keeping a pistol under the bed. I can't understand displaying a functional rifle like home decor
2012-12-14 04:39:17 PM  
2 votes:
The gun control argument is stupid and moot. You will never achieve gun control in a country with guns this pervasive already. So as much as I despise guns, there is no point in arguing about it.

As far as the guy that did this, if alive, feed him through a wood chipper. Slowly.

If dead, find the asshole who supplied him with said firearms, and introduce him to the parents of the dead children. In a locked room. I'm sure that will be a very calm, civil discussion of firearms issues.
2012-12-14 04:38:16 PM  
2 votes:

rufus-t-firefly: orclover: WhyteRaven74: JungleBoogie: y. We have a population that is more prone to internal violence than small, homogeneous groups of Israelis or Swedes, for a lot of reasons.

Check the rates of poverty in Sweden or Switzerland, then check the poverty rate in the US. You have most of your issue right there.

Getting mental health care is a tad easier as well. And by Tad I mean...farkING LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of us. So not so many crazy people just walking around with access to firearms.

Give 100 sane people a button that kills anyone they choose instantly and you will have 100 people alive at the end of each day (barring accidents). Add 1 mentally unbalanced person tot he mix and you will likely have at least 1 dead very soon.

ITS NOT THE farkING BUTTONS DOING THE KILLING.
/should I put that in bold?

The buttons may kill...but they sure as fark make it easy, don't they?

Maybe you shouldn't let crazy people near them.

Just don't let people get near the buttons without checking them out first. No loopholes - actual background checks on anyone who gets near them. If any of those people push the button and you didn't do what was legally required, you are an accessory to murder.


Then again...you could just not set the buttons up in the first place.
2012-12-14 04:35:40 PM  
2 votes:

shower_in_my_socks: Sterling Thunder: my ONLY point is that if all the guns were gone tomorrow wastes like these would find another way.


Yes, they would find another way. But it would be FAR LESS EFFECTIVE.


Or far more
2012-12-14 04:34:24 PM  
2 votes:
An armed society is a polite society!
2012-12-14 04:34:17 PM  
2 votes:
Can we help the unstable from now on?
Can we keep the weapons away from them?
Can we remember the victims in this?
Can we do anything to stop the next one?
Can we stop focusing on the killer?

The answer is to all of these questions is sadly...not today, not ever.

/I'm done.
2012-12-14 04:30:03 PM  
2 votes:

ZeroPly: bootman: Are we to the point yet where we can demand recommendations on policy changes from the NRA and their ilk on how to prevent insane folks from obtaining firearms? The issues surrounding mentally disturbed people and firearms is an existential issue for the NRA, are they just too stupid to realize it?

The NRA has no problem with restricting insane people from owning guns. The problem is how to determine "insane". Does having a history of depression count? PTSD from Afghanistan? How about believing that a race war is imminent, and stocking up on MREs?


FNC reported that the weapons in question were registered to the mother of the shooter, who was killed with those weapons.

Doesn't really matter what laws you pass - this guy didn't buy the guns.

The problem, though no one wants to say it, is the tool. The gun. Bombs are difficult to make. Knives can't mass kill people in a short amount of time without an army. You can run a car into a crowd of people, but besides old people, no one seems to be using cars to take out their anger on other people.

I own a few guns. I'm not worried about what I'll do with them, but if someone breaks into my house and steals them, the potential for days like today goes up exponentially. I'm not enough of an advocate to understand the problem here.
2012-12-14 04:28:08 PM  
2 votes:
I spent many, many years working with elementary-school-age kids, and had a particular fondness for the kindergartners, the little ones. Having no children of my own, they woke up my paternal instincts, and I delighted in teaching them, watching their eyes light up with discovery when they learned something new, or when I was greeted with a mass of hugs when walking in the door. I cared for all my kids, the thousands I took care of, but those tiny ones always held a place in my heart. I never forgot that I was being handed a huge responsibility in being trusted with a parent's most valuable asset in life: their child. I would have gladly given my own life to defend any one of them. I'm sure the dead teachers did the same.

Got over the tears.
Got over the urge to vomit.
Still stunned.
Dude had the decency to off himself...just wish he'd done it first.
2012-12-14 04:24:33 PM  
2 votes:

inner ted: coco ebert: The topic of mental health funding always comes up when the shooter is white. fark that, Imma go with terrorist sumamabiatch.

yes, please keep bringing race into an incident that had little to nothing to do with race.

/when you tire out that chicken, what will you move on to?


Isn't it crazy how it's never about race when a white person is the perpetrator?
2012-12-14 04:23:01 PM  
2 votes:
Ardilla

Virtue: As David Lamp writes at Cato, "In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel 'have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.'"


Right, so we have to deal with reality, not fantasy. We have a population that is more prone to internal violence than small, homogeneous groups of Israelis or Swedes, for a lot of reasons. But that's a fact, unpleasant though it may be. But it's reality. So, we need laws that work for our society, to limit the massacres.

And that means reducing the control moneyed interests, like the arms industry, has over the government. Then limiting the manufacture and sale of firearms so that there will be less firearms for criminals to get.
2012-12-14 04:22:31 PM  
2 votes:

Virtue: "As David Lamp writes at Cato, "In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel 'have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.'""


BS! Getting Guns in Israel if you live past the Green Line (settlers) is easy, for everyone else I believe there is a requirement to show need. The CATO guy is being disingenuous, surprise! There are 88.8 private guns for every 100 people in the US, in Israel there are 7.3/10

He is including military guns which are a different story
2012-12-14 04:22:20 PM  
2 votes:

bootman: Are we to the point yet where we can demand recommendations on policy changes from the NRA and their ilk on how to prevent insane folks from obtaining firearms? The issues surrounding mentally disturbed people and firearms is an existential issue for the NRA, are they just too stupid to realize it?


The NRA has no problem with restricting insane people from owning guns. The problem is how to determine "insane". Does having a history of depression count? PTSD from Afghanistan? How about believing that a race war is imminent, and stocking up on MREs?
2012-12-14 04:16:26 PM  
2 votes:

Hand Banana: Oh god, I just realized these kids most likely have presents sitting at home under their trees right now.


That comment is like taking the ending of Grave of the Fireflies and adding a dying puppy to it.
2012-12-14 04:14:48 PM  
2 votes:

USP .45: Ardilla: So, you're cool with this sort of thing happening over and over again, then?

At minimum, we need to have a national discussion about gun control and, yes, about mental health. But it's long past time for us to enact some sensible guidelines and restrictions.

Wringing our hands yet doing nothing, yet again, is not acceptable.

Anytime someone says "sensible" it tells me they have no farking clue about anything.

Say what the sensible guidelines and restrictions are. I already suggested one.


Let's start with a framework:

1) Make it absolutely illegal to buy, sell, own, or use a gun without earning a license and enact SEVERE criminal penalties for violations of this/these law/s.
2) Make it mandatory to pass a mental health screening as a condition of earning a license.
3) Gun licenses must be renewed at least as often as drivers' licenses are renewed, with repeat mental health screening at each renewal.
4) SEVERE criminal penalties for anyone who sells or gives a gun to an unlicensed person.
5) Require all guns to be registered as we do cars, with a mandatory ballistic ID database program.

You'll note that I am not advocating the absolute prohibition of guns. But these steps would go a long way toward limiting the number of mentally unstable people with guns.
2012-12-14 04:13:45 PM  
2 votes:

nekom: just that parents make it a little bit more personal. "What if it was my kid's school?" is a thought that has certainly occurred to me.



nekom: just that parents make it a little bit more personal. "What if it was my kid's school?" is a thought that has certainly occurred to me.


nekom: just that parents make it a little bit more personal. "What if it was my kid's school?" is a thought that has certainly occurred to me.



nekom: just that parents make it a little bit more personal. "What if it was my kid's school?" is a thought that has certainly occurred to me.
 

Thank you. This would include a President with two school-aged daughters. As a parent with one in Kindergarten, I can totally see why he'd be overcome.
2012-12-14 04:13:40 PM  
2 votes:
mayIFark: Fine, this is too early to discuss gun control (I prefer an outright ban on all guns of all kind, starting right now, but anyway) because it is just happening and now is not the time.

Aurora happened a while ago, let's talk how we would have prevented that.
Gabby Gifford got shot over a year ago, let's talk how we could prevented that.
Let's talk why those Sikhs died.
Let's talk Virginia tech.
Let's talk Nadal's army shooting.
Let's talk the mall shootings this Tuesday.

What the fark? How much farking more blood you want?

JungleBoogie: Due to the way our political system has metastasized, moneyed interests have outsized influence on politicians, and are able to block reform. Ref: the arms industry and the financial industry.

We currently have government of the highest bidder, by the highest bidder, for the highest bidder. That must be changed first.

Then, we must limit the number of firearms in circulation. Simple gun laws don't work as criminals don't care, they disobey the laws routinely. So there must be fewer firearms in circulation so they can illegally obtain fewer firearms.

And, it's not going to be perfect, but the best thing we can do is to reduce the frequency and severity of massacres. This goal is well within our grasp. If we choose to take the necessary actions.

Kit Fister: on those particular points, I will fight you to my last breath. I will not give up my rights for the illusion of safety. I will fight for proper means to deal with the precipitating causes.



Bring it. Your side has been winning for a long time, and all we have are massacres to show for it. It's time for new ideas as your ideas have failed to stop the bloodbaths. 

It's time to break control that moneyed interests have over government. It's time to stop "Government of the highest bidder, by the highest bidder, for the highest bidder." And return it to "Government of the people, by the people, for the people." It's time to break the stranglehold the arms industry has over the government.

It's time to limit the manufacture and sale of firearms. It's time to get rid of willful self-delusion peddled by emotional, unreasoning gun advocates.  Pro-gun groups have made one good point - gun laws aren't observed by criminals. True enough. So there need to be fewer guns in society that criminals can get.
2012-12-14 04:13:33 PM  
2 votes:
I remember hearing people rail against violence in the movies and on TV. "Kids shouldn't see this," they said. "They might become violent." Others thought they were nuts.

I remember hearing people rail against violence in video games. "Kids shouldn't have these," they said. "It'll make them insensitive to death." Others thought they were nuts.

I remember hearing people say, "Kids who misbehave should be spanked. They need to learn there are consequences to their actions." Others thought they were nuts and put their kids in "time out."

Then something like this happens and all fingers point to the guns.

We had guns before the bloody movies and graphic television shows.
We had guns back when "video game" meant "Pong."
We had guns back when teachers routinely brought out the paddles to discipline students.
We had guns back when songs about killing others would never have been pressed into records.

What we didn't have before all of this was all these crazy shootings.

For most kids, watching violent movies or television will do nothing.
For most kids, listening to music that suggests violent actions will do nothing.
For most kids, playing violent video games will do nothing.

But shove enough violence into a mind that's wired just a little bit differently......

/those whiney goody-two-shoes cronies might have been right.
//Don't get me wrong. I still think there needs to be a psych exam for anyone who buys anything north of a shotgun. But there are too many guns out there to put that genie back in the bottle.
///I also think teachers should be allowed to carry.
2012-12-14 04:13:17 PM  
2 votes:
There is never going to be a convenient time to talk about the issues surrounding mass shootings. Toughen up and have the f*cking conversation anyway. This sh*t will not go away unless we have the goddamn conversation.

Don't know if someone else has posted this yet, so I'll just leave this here:

Eleven facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States. Link
2012-12-14 04:12:05 PM  
2 votes:

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Pssst...to any young kids reading Fark today in elementary school. First of all, you shouldn't be on this site, it's nasty. But second of all, when you go home tonight, you can pretty much write your own farking check. Have your folks been hemming and hawing about that puppy or bicycle or Xbox you really want for Christmas? Now's your chance. Just put on those big, wet anime eyes, and say something cute like, "I wuv you mommy," or "Can we have pasketti for dinner," and then drop a little hint about great it would be to have a bike or puppy or Xbox, and how happy it would make you and it sure would be a shame if Something Bad happened to you before you got a chance to enjoy it. Also, you got a pretty good shot at ice cream for dessert tonight.


This is pretty much what I plan on doing tonight with my kids. My husband and 9-yr-old daughter are playing Flames of War at the local gaming shop tonight. I'll make sure he takes her for pizza before and ice cream afterward. I'll be doing the same at home with our 3-yr-old son--watching back-to-back episodes of "Spongebob" and eating popcorn until we explode. As others have said, I'll hug them tigher and shower them with kisses and tell them how much I love them 47 times before they go to bed. Because I can. And my heart aches for those who can't tonight.
2012-12-14 04:10:26 PM  
2 votes:

USP .45: no I was saying white people are latenty racist regarding another issue


I was there. Weaseling out of it makes you look weak. You said Fark was anti-White because it would only report and highlight white male mass murderers or wanna-be's. You were proved wrong with many linked threads. You should probably acknowledge you were wrong if you want any credibility. Stand for something and take your lumps.
2012-12-14 04:07:39 PM  
2 votes:

Kit Fister: I will fight for proper means to deal with the precipitating causes.


So you support doing everything we can to eradicate poverty?
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-14 04:05:07 PM  
2 votes:

bootman: Are we to the point yet where we can demand recommendations on policy changes from the NRA and their ilk on how to prevent insane folks from obtaining firearms? The issues surrounding mentally disturbed people and firearms is an existential issue for the NRA, are they just too stupid to realize it?


This catches their rhetoric in a Catch-22. If they admit that firearms should be kept from some people then they have opened a door and admitted that there should be limits. The NRA doesn't EVER admit limits to the 2nd amendment. Maybe someone can correct me, but they pretty much believe as a rule that people should be allowed ANY type of firearm and any limiting factor is wrong. It's part of the reason their rhetoric is so irritating.
2012-12-14 04:03:53 PM  
2 votes:
I can't believe you NRA loving motherfarkers coming in here and bashing anyone speaking out against guns.

...today's not the day....my ass it's not. Today is precisely the day to start to change.
2012-12-14 04:02:34 PM  
2 votes:
The best thing to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun.
2012-12-14 04:00:29 PM  
2 votes:

Godscrack: "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families.."

fark OFF


This isn't the best time to tell everyone how much of an atheist you are. No one ever cares and even less so at the moment.
2012-12-14 04:00:23 PM  
2 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The All-Powerful Atheismo: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The All-Powerful Atheismo: It's a stupid point because those things aren't the same,

They're all preventable. That's how they're the same.

That is ONE way they're the same, that doesn't mean they're exactly the same.

Oh and many of those aren't preventable, so your point is even more worthless.

Um. You won't accept a comparison unless I'm comparing things that are EXACTLY the same? What exactly would the the point of that, genius? I notice people resort to that defense when they have nothing intelligent to say. And yes, they're all preventable too.


They're not all preventable by US, and WE are the ones reacting to it you idiot. Why are you people so farking obtuse? And heartless? An emotional response is affected by the manner in which the tragedy occurs. That's pretty farking simple. Everybody here thinks it's just as much of a tragedy if 20 kids die of starvation.
2012-12-14 03:57:14 PM  
2 votes:
Press outlets don't publicize suicides because they feel it gives the suicidal party attention and will promote others to take the same action. I believe this activity needs to be reversed, since crazies just take a shiat ton of innocents with them now as they kill themselves to get that attention. Also, it might finally shed a light on the incredible suicide problem we have in the United States.
2012-12-14 03:57:12 PM  
2 votes:

CthulhuCalling:
you do realize that most cops never draw their sidearm except for annual qualifications and never take any advanced training? all CCWs that I know, including myself, shoot regularly and take many classes a year: tactical shooting, low light shooting, handgun, shotgun, rifle, home clearing, etc... well above what your average beat cop receives. I've put more rounds downrange in the last month that a lot of cops will in their career.


Do you know what the definition of anecdote is? Or what Dunning-Kruger is? Because that's what you're demonstrating here.

Your plinking means nothing. You are not trained to engage in an active shooter situation. You are NOT law enforcement. You are NOT a tactical operator. Your CCW is for personal defense only, in the immediate danger to your life, or the life of someone around you. It is not for you to charge forward like Call of Medal of Duty Black Ops, and save the day.

Please, oh please tell me you're going to use that in court when you decide to play "The Decider", rush in, and shoot the wrong person, or cap two people along with the shooter.

Because I would LOVE to see a prosecuting DA tear you to shreads on the stand when you say you're more "qualified" to pull the trigger than "a beat cop", and they point out just what kind of quarterly qualifications a COLEA-accredited department has to put their officers through.
2012-12-14 03:57:05 PM  
2 votes:

bulldg4life: Kinda disheartening when Obama starts rattling off all the scenes...first thought "damn, that list is too f*cking long"


And that was only in 2012
2012-12-14 03:56:37 PM  
2 votes:

Cagey B: I would be more down with the "this isn't the time for politics" crowd if we didn't systematically ignore some of the root causes for this stuff every time it happens.


You're talking about batshait crazy people, right?
How are you going to prevent that?
2012-12-14 03:56:00 PM  
2 votes:

Ardilla: Cagey B: I would be more down with the "this isn't the time for politics" crowd if we didn't systematically ignore some of the root causes for this stuff every time it happens.

ABSOLUTELY THIS.

If now isn't the time to have a discussion about gun control, when will it ever be?


considering the mass shootings are starting to overlap, if we don't have the conversation in the 15 sanctioned minutes between massacres, we'll miss it.
2012-12-14 03:55:49 PM  
2 votes:
Wow. What the hell. I like to comfort myself by saying I will never understand the thoughts inside that man's head.

And Obama's speech moved me. I hope that everyone involved in the inevitable gun control debate will take a breath and remember these kids who died. That's what it's about. Maybe you think the solution is tighter gun control. Maybe you think it's a stronger mental health system. Maybe it's more armed people at the schools.

But whatever side you come down on, remember that this is what motivates people. Not some abstract ideology that people want to implement in the name of socialism. Dead kids. In Anytown, USA. farking terrible - there are no good words for something like this. Honor the dead by not increasing the hatred and anger in this world when you debate their legacy.
2012-12-14 03:50:01 PM  
2 votes:
I'm at a loss, and since I don't have any kids, I'm going to go the nearest school and start hugging as many kids as I can.
2012-12-14 03:48:07 PM  
2 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The point.. you missed it.


You're comparing chronic social and health conditions with ongoing attempts at resolution with a spree killing that's already over. I'd love to hear what "the point" is.
2012-12-14 03:47:30 PM  
2 votes:

IlGreven: SharpieIncident: This sums up how I feel about this:
"This will be my only post today. We are shocked and horrified by the news coming out of Connecticut. When senseless violence takes the most innocent of lives, our grief is all the deeper.

Many will seek to turn their outrage to action. But now is not the time for politics. Let us instead reflect upon what was lost today, and first grieve together for the victims, many of whom were just children." ~George Takei via Facebook.

My rage will boil in a few minutes, impotent as it may be.

This is the one time that I disagree with George Takei. Outrage leads to action, and a resolution. Introspection leads to apathy, and continuation. I don't want this to continue.


A resolution to what? Senseless tragedy? There are parents with Christmas gifts at home that will never be opened. An abyss where the heart once was. Can we not, as a human race, collectively pause and remember that these new political tools were once sweet little voices with souls of their own? Whether Left, Right, or Other, they deserve better.
2012-12-14 03:47:25 PM  
2 votes:

Calypsocookie: And in no way is this a political thing but Obama's speech while fighting back tears...made me sob.


Any empathic person with kids of their own--is going to mentally ask "what if" ---and is going to emotionally react to their own hypothetical. That's normal human emotion.
2012-12-14 03:46:54 PM  
2 votes:
Only 1 wounded, means he methodically executed all those kids. This wasn't spray and pray. Horrible.
2012-12-14 03:45:01 PM  
2 votes:

dennysgod: Westboro Baptist church blaming this on Maine, Maryland, and Washington legalizing same-sex marriages last month in 3...2...1...


/you know those f*ckers will


Everybody is going to blame something no matter how relevant it is. The way the shooter grew up, his background nationality, that one political belief he had in high school, that club he was part of, what videogames he played. Anything to just settle with their beliefs so they can walk away and not have to deal with the crushing reality.
2012-12-14 03:44:01 PM  
2 votes:
God works in mysterious ways................................
2012-12-14 03:42:06 PM  
2 votes:
3.bp.blogspot.com
2012-12-14 03:41:58 PM  
2 votes:
I think I will save my snark for other threads.

Very sad day. My thoughts are with those with friends and loved ones affected by the shooting.
2012-12-14 03:41:45 PM  
2 votes:
Why didn't he just jump off the George Washington Bridge like all the other screwed up nutjobs?
2012-12-14 03:40:33 PM  
2 votes:

The Incredible Sexual Egg: News reports that Lanza killed himself


farker should have made that step 1.
2012-12-14 03:40:20 PM  
2 votes:

Lundyn: The sad thing is that this isn't such a bad idea at this point.


No, its a horrible point. Especially since the TSA shouldn't exist in the first place.

eddievercetti: is there nothing to help the mentally unstable at all?


Not in China and not much in the US.
2012-12-14 03:39:55 PM  
2 votes:

SharpieIncident: This sums up how I feel about this:
"This will be my only post today. We are shocked and horrified by the news coming out of Connecticut. When senseless violence takes the most innocent of lives, our grief is all the deeper.

Many will seek to turn their outrage to action. But now is not the time for politics. Let us instead reflect upon what was lost today, and first grieve together for the victims, many of whom were just children." ~George Takei via Facebook.

My rage will boil in a few minutes, impotent as it may be.


This is the one time that I disagree with George Takei. Outrage leads to action, and a resolution. Introspection leads to apathy, and continuation. I don't want this to continue.
2012-12-14 03:38:44 PM  
2 votes:
With this and what happened in China, is there nothing to help the mentally unstable at all?
2012-12-14 03:38:39 PM  
2 votes:
Did he use a .88 Magnum?
2012-12-14 03:37:58 PM  
2 votes:
Today isn't the day for politics, but I would like to see a congressional report or an executive report on mass shootings and the motives, actors, and so on, for the last ten years or so.
2012-12-14 03:36:40 PM  
2 votes:
CBS News reports the gunman, identified as 24-year-old Ryan Lanza, was the son of a female teacher at the school who was killed in the mass shooting.

Bad editing here. Are they saying the gunman is dead? Or his mom, or both?
2012-12-14 03:36:29 PM  
2 votes:
Free Zima soup for all
2012-12-14 03:35:36 PM  
2 votes:
Better find a way to live with firearms. It's not unreasonable to imagine a future where 3d printers are ubiquitious, and people are already making working lower recievers with them. We don't have a choice going forward any more than Sony had a choice wrt to mp3s.
2012-12-17 11:26:16 AM  
1 votes:

I drunk what: PunGent: Ugh. So we need to ban compassionate teachers, or forbid them from having kids :(

wouldn't it be more efficient to just ban mental illness?

i say we tax crazy people


Sure.

So long as Congress doesn't pass one of those BS "congress is exempt from it's own laws" loopholes :)
2012-12-16 08:13:11 PM  
1 votes:

JungleBoogie: I have a path forward:

1) Semiautomatic weapons should be as difficult to get as automatic weapons. The only weapons civilians can have are repeating (manual reload) weapons - bolt actions, pump actions, etc.

2) Civilians cannot have magazines that can hold greater than X number of bullets. Say 5-7.


Oh sure, that sounds like a well regulated militia. Let's just give the militia sling shots and marshmallows. Look, it's great that you want to stop senseless deaths, but alcohol causes 80,000 every year, dwarfing gun deaths. Why is there no petition on the white house website asking for a ban on alcohol? It's a much bigger problem, and kills far more children. Why is this suddenly your biggest concern other than the fact that the media just sent you into an outrage over fewer deaths than occur by lightning strike? Is it because someone intended it? Is it because it was done with a gun? Tell me, I really want to know.
2012-12-16 07:39:02 PM  
1 votes:
I have a path forward:

1) Semiautomatic weapons should be as difficult to get as automatic weapons. The only weapons civilians can have are repeating (manual reload) weapons - bolt actions, pump actions, etc.

2) Civilians cannot have magazines that can hold greater than X number of bullets. Say 5-7.

So that's the solution for weapons.

Then, the mental health angle:

1) We've got to find a way to identify and detain - under a psychiatric hold or otherwise - homicidal people. And do this in a way which does not turn us into a police state. People saw "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest " in the 70s, and then promptly emptied the asylums. It helped nobody, but fixed a non-existent problem. So, we've got to have a much more robust ability to commit people. Yes, we'll get more "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" type situations and movies, but hopefully with the information-dissemination power of the internet and the experience of history, we'll know the benefits outweigh the costs.
2012-12-15 10:20:04 PM  
1 votes:

Krustofsky: To see someone like this kill so many kids...I knew quite a few folks who were socially awkward, nerds, bullied, some with divorced parents, suffered from depression. Hell, I was one of those people. What gets someone so wired like this that they think that shooting up a school is OK?



I really hope we can get some kind of answer here. This comes off very different then most other mass shooting. I guess I get someone getting so bent of of shape and shooting up peers-classmates, coworkers, etc. Pretty goddamned bad, yes, but I suppose I see the connection.

Other then blind rage or some variation of voices in the head, I don't know why people shoot up public places of strangers-the Aurora shooting, mall shootings, etc. These are adults and I guess I can try to understand that the person has a beef with everyone and shoots adults (and maybe teens).

I have a difficult time trying to figure out why a stranger goes into a school and shoots the place up (rare in and of itself) and can't fathom why they would target 6 and 7 year olds.

In terms kind of sort of understanding (not agreeing): peers>strangers in public place>students at school>1st graders. What else is there? Puppies and kittens at Petsmart, babies in the hospital?
2012-12-15 09:09:09 PM  
1 votes:

Haliburton Cummings: [big, bold, edgy awing]


thx4 not shooting up a school.
2012-12-15 08:57:46 PM  
1 votes:
man, i'm still in mourning over some other complete strangers from another country so this..THIS is just
emotionally draining...

then i hear something about some place called Palestine or Israel or someplace and it reminds of this place called the Balkans...man..then it just gets too much..

i sure hope some white girl doesn't go missing over christmas because then i will just loooooooossseeee it...


my ghoulish and self indulgent condolences go out to all those who i will never meet...

i should get on the comments sections of the local papers and address my prayers to people in a very personal way...from halfway across the country...

"we will miss you Tina...you were loved.." etc etc


get on with it.

/sad kid with sad life kills innocent people.
//go home with your satellite trucks and your rubbernecks
///this post brought to you by TIDE: we can get the blood out. now back to Harry with the weather..
2012-12-15 06:26:07 PM  
1 votes:
I know I keep making jokes about zombies, negroes and THE BRITISH but seriously

can ONE of you farkers explain REALLY why you need your guns outside of the following pissweak reasons:

1) I like firing a gun it's fun woo hoo
2) I am afraid that because lots of people own guns someone owning a gun may break in my house so I want a gun to protect myself, so closing the circle of life
3) I think that small arm ownership keeps the government in line because I have no capacity for advanced reasoning
4) I need to own a gun because some dudes a few hundred years ago were afraid they would be re-invaded by THE BRITISH and my nation brainwashes its children into viewing these rich slave owning folks as religious icons who can do no wrong
5) WOLVERINES
6) BECAUSE OF AN ILL-DEFINED NOTION OF THE WORD FREEDOM

That's all I've ever seen as the actual reasoning BEHIND the thousands of pages of spurious justifications and *arguments*.

I get the feeling #2 tends to be the main reason, with a lot of #4 and #6 from the 'I lost my capacity for extended reasoning around the fifty-millionth time I heard the words "Founding Fathers".'

Just to help out there, owning guns isn't about 'freedom' any more than having sex with children is. You can jump on your soapbox of Liberty and argue that 'freedom' means you need the right to have both but I'm happy to smack you in the mouth and tell you that's not the case.

'Freedom' is an arbitrary definition. It's not defined by Jebus, much as you might think. Folks around the world with a hell of a lot more 'freedom' than Americans get by just fine without guns.

It's only propaganda standing in the way. And what has been done can be undone - it just depends how many more dead children you need to work that out.

Hopefully not too many.
2012-12-15 06:11:20 PM  
1 votes:

davidphogan: cegorach: As if that would actually work.

Not only is a handgun a poor weapon of choice against an APC out front of your house, I doubt very few gun nuts would really have the guts to actually act on their whackjob ideology.

Sure, you'd hear a lot of squawking but come actual disarmament, they'd hand their killtoys over meekly and head back to watching the game.

And life would go on, with the only real change being somewhat less spree killings each week.

Ummm... I'm not trying to be rude, but you seem to really misunderstand the situation here.

100+ million people own guns the in the US. That's about a third of the country. On top of that, we have a thing called the Constitution, which also includes the Bill of Rights. You've probably heard of some of these, but one of them is that you can't be searched without a judicial order. Neither can your property. There are ways to change these documents, but changing them in the way you're advocating is not something that is going to happen even if events like this start happening every month.

Our military is sworn to uphold this Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. If they're given an unlawful order, which breaking into the homes of everyone in the country to search for guns would definitely be, they're probably going to turn on the government. Also, a large part of the US military comes from the areas that would have the biggest problem with going door to door and taking all the guns away from US citizens.

The US lost more people in the Civil War than any other war we've been in. It's something like 40% of all war deaths the US as a nation has experienced were in the Civil War. What you're advocating could easily lead to that being a miniscule number.

You seem to lack a lot of understanding of our laws and history, but thanks for chiming in. Maybe you can read up on them a tiny bit before you advocate using the US military against the US population and saying that "life would go on."


Oh wow, I'm so sorry.

I didn't realise your nation was so backward-ass that it had no way of enacting any policy or activity on a national scale. That's sad :(

You seem to lack a lot of understanding of your own laws but thanks for the landslide of derp there.

It's not that hard. First you legislate as swiftly as possible, probably only seeing a dozen or so spree killings while you do.

Then all domestic firearms are removed from casual sale. Compensate specific gun retailers and help redirect their business.

Now people apparently register guns. So you enact a mandatory handing in of all registered firearms (with ammo) and failure to do so has consequences that do not involve FARTBAMA'S JACKBOOTED THUGS KICKING EVERY DOOR DOWN. Reminders, warnings and PSA's - and then careful individual collection for the real insane holdouts.

You concurrently run an amnesty period for collection of unregistered firearms and ammo.

In all cases, people are paid compensation. Maybe this will mean one less invasion of brown people in coming years but hey, small price to pay.

I am unsure where you got the notion of breaking down doors wholesale but since you're advocating the status quo, I'd imagine fear-driven paranoia is a daily burden you have to bear.

Funny thing is that after a while, once your nation gets over its addiction to killtoys, not only will domestic bloodthirst go down but you will likely find you will lose your appetite for murdering children in other nations (whose only crime is owning oil/living near people who own oil/aren't friends with that guy you prop up).

So less murdered children all round

or

STARS AND STRIPES FOREVER YOU AIN'T TAKING MY GUNS LORD JESUS WASHINGTON FRANKLIN PRESERVE US FROM THE ZOMBIE NEGRO BRITISH HORDES AT THE DOOR

Really, you people are primitive, gullible dipshiats of the first water.

Most powerful and advanced nation in the world can't disarm its populace?

Either that's bullshiat or you are nowhere near as powerful and advanced as you think you are and are really just a nation beholden to a minority, or majority, of violent, brainwashed lunatics.

From the outside, it's looking like the latter more and more.

All I know is that in a sane nation, when you're looking at the corpses of a few dozen 5-10 year old children, the first thought is not 'Oh God, now people are going to start talking about gun control again.'
2012-12-15 04:38:15 PM  
1 votes:

urban.derelict: ph0rk: Unless you next door to BraveNewCheneyWorld, in which case you'll run out of ammo holding off the elite platoon of hyper-ninjas storming your home to steal your miracle whip.

Sorry, man.

"Sorry, man," i got no reason to fear an elite troop of ninjas breaking into my house -- i have no valuables, I don't have stockpiles of cash or illegal drugs -- I just have a 9mm and a box of ammo.

If one or two or three perps decide to break into my house to try to find cover, perhaps they just carjacked or killed someone nearby -- they'd be making a mistake if they broke into my house.

I couldn't care less where they went, but they're not coming here.

Now all you anti-gun nuts can cry and change your diapers while you sit at gunpoint because you don't believe in 'gun rights.'


We aren't the ones living in fear. You paint a picture of yourself, locked up in an empty house with nothing but a gun & some ammo, and expect people to believe that *we're* the crazy ones???

It is ABNORMAL, this worship of guns. It is a mental illness.
2012-12-15 03:36:27 PM  
1 votes:
Compiling a list of rampage shootings that made the news leads to an inescapable conclusion: The proven effective way to stop these events isn't through "gun free zones" or gun control, but rather the opposite.

The data:

9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor's shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.
8/1/1966 - Charles Joseph Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas in Austin, Texas and began shooting at other students and faculty with a sniper rifle. He killed 16 people before being shot and killed by police.
7/18/1984 - James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.
10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.
11/15/1995 - Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.
2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.
10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.
12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.
4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.
4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school's armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.
7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.
1/16/2002 - Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.
8/27/2003 - Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.
9/24/2003 - John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.
2/25/2005 - David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with an assault rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter's fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
3/21/2005 - Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.
11/8/2005 - Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.
9/29/2006 - Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.
4/16/2007 - Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.
9/3/2008 - Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.
3/29/2009 - Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.
4/3/2009 - Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.
11/5/2009 - Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.
2/12/2010 - Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.
1/8/2011 - Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.
2/27/2012 - T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.
4/22/2012 - Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.
7/20/2012 - James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.
8/5/2012 - Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page killed himself.
9/27/2012 - Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself.
12/11/2012 - 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed 2 people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. Roberts killed himself upon arrival of police.
12/14/2012 - 20 year old Adam Lanza kills 26 in multiple locations including 20 children between the ages of 5 and 10 at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, CT. He killed himself.

Average deaths in events stopped by police: 14.3
Average deaths in events stopped by unarmed civilians: 2.6
Average deaths in events stopped by armed civilians: 1.8

Rather than spinning our wheels with talk of "outlawing guns" (which is neither feasible nor practical), we should be enacting policies that mitigate the risk and severity of these events, and scrapping policies that exacerbate them.
2012-12-15 01:52:01 PM  
1 votes:

Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: Kit Fister: Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: We shouldn't have to give up anything. Right now we are parking ambulances at the bottom of the cliff and preparing to clean up the carnage. Some people think we should post someone at the top of the cliff to stop people from driving off of it. What we really need to do is provide a society where nobody ever feels the need to drive their car off of the cliff in the first place. I am not sure that is possible, but I would rather work towards that than take everyone's car keys away.

This this this this this this.

'Twas adapted from the book Influencer: The Power to Change Anything. Highly reusable metaphor.


So you want a society free of mentally ill people? Either your gonna need Obamacare on steroids or a decent eugenics program. Either way, it would be simpler to make it harder to get guns, especially handguns.
2012-12-15 12:12:21 PM  
1 votes:
There is a reason armies use guns, and not knives, glass, baseball bats or screwdrivers. Guess what it is.

Stop pretending guns are something else, or that all things are equal. It's time to do something about all of this, and stop accepting the bullshiat excuses, hypothetical hero fantasies and false analogies from the gun lobby parrots.

Imperfect solutions are still better than doing nothing and making up reasons for inaction. Don't let the scared bullies stop you from furthering the discussion.
2012-12-15 05:28:15 AM  
1 votes:

Mock26: Oh yeah, I forgot to point out that the original intent of the 2nd Amendment as evolved and changed, much like our country has, and that is exactly what the founding fathers intended, that future generations could decide for themselves how best to interpret the Constitution. That is, after all, the main purpose of the Supreme Court.


They also made it possible for us to repeal amendments if things changed drastically enough. I'm saying that has happened. You disagree. I'm OK with that - let's put it to a vote in every state.
2012-12-15 05:04:52 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Hmmm.... how are you going to enforce that? Wouldn't the measures necessary to enforce it quickly escalate to totalitarian control

Would you consider the UK to be a totalitarian state?

It's getting there. Not yet, but....

No, I am talking about the process of collecting 200,000,000 weapons from individuals. Do you really think that would go peacefully?


If they were not gun nuts there would be no problem. But here again we see the root of the problem: Americans have deep-rooted psychological issues that drive them to possess in large quantities weapons designed for the explicit purpose of killing human beings. That's not sanity.
2012-12-15 04:47:55 AM  
1 votes:

davidphogan: cegorach: No, I mean an ICU full of babies.

Dozens of machine-gunned babies.

I'm glad someone from Australia can tell me why we should ban guns here because of a worst case scenario that's incredibly likely to ever happen. Do you have any clue what it takes to get a machine gun in the US?


Are you really splitting hairs on the eve of a few dozen dead children to try and cover your ass?

OH GOSH NOT A MACHINE GUN BUT SOMETHING ELSE CATEGORISED AS AN ASSAULT WEAPON BECAUSE WHILE PARENTS ARE CURRENTLY CRYING OVER THE BODIES OF THEIR CHILDREN THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS GETTING OUR WEAPON CLASSIFICATION RIGHT

You're quite the psychopathic bottom-dweller.
2012-12-15 04:34:18 AM  
1 votes:

Fail in Human Form: cegorach: I honestly think that someone could hose an ICU with lead and you disgusting creatures would not bat an eyelid.

'Oh gosh, there's not been a massive increase in the number of gun-driven spree killings in the last two decades!'

Some of you guys are pretty clearly trending deep into the psychopathy spectrum.

It called not letting your emotions overwhelm your reason.


What reason?

THE BRITISH ARE COMING?

FARTBONGO'S BLACK HELICOPTERS?

GANG BANGERS IN DO-RAGS?

There's no reason here. Just brainwashed jackasses.

You go slap one of those crying mothers and warn her not to let her emotions overwhelm her love for FREEDOM.

Go on.
2012-12-15 03:39:26 AM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: In other news, approximately 90 people will have died on our roadways today in motor vehicle accidents.


In other news, approximately 0 people will have died today due to gunshot injuries in quite a few nations with strict gun control laws.

Of course, they don't have big issues to deal with like you do.

Supply-side Jebus, negroes, zombies, THE BRITISH, etc etc.

Hmm, how about you morans stop treating the Second Amendment like a holy writ and instead view it as something that was relatively relevant in SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY ONE for a bunch of relatively well-off fellows who had just pulled off the world's biggest tax evasion stunt and were somewhat concerned about the future consequences.

In today's world, your sad little home defence armories aren't going to keep you tyrant-free, no matter the NRA jizz-fantasies you may indulge in.
2012-12-15 02:42:34 AM  
1 votes:

drewogatory: A firearm is not something someone can just whip-up. Actually, it is. Very,very common to find simple homemade submachine guns in certain countries where manufactured guns are too expensive/difficult to acquire. A simple google search of "Homemade" or "expedient" firearms would reveal just how easy they are to make. The cat is well and truly out of the bag technology wise.


And yet, despite the ban on such weapons here, nobody bothers to ""whip up" submachine guns.... funny that.
2012-12-15 02:28:44 AM  
1 votes:

COMALite J: Thanks. So, as I thought, does not distinguish whether the shooter knew and had some actual grievance against the victims, gang violence, etc. and the sort of thing I′ve been talking about being caused by hypermania and linked to SSRIs, namely, premeditated multiple-random-victim mass killings.


That would mean gang violence has dropped a ton. At the same time, it wasn't unheard of just a few decades back for pregnant women to smoke, drink and even take "diet pills" (aka speed). So, maybe we replaced one cause of problems for another.

That or, since the number of deaths an incidents has stayed flat while the population has grown a lot, this is actually no more of a problem (or even less of a problem) than it ever was before, but because we didn't have a 24 hour news cycle with live feeds from anywhere in the country it didn't feel like a problem until the mid to late 90's when every one of these incidents became a live national tragedy.
2012-12-15 02:06:19 AM  
1 votes:

davidphogan: COMALite J: red headed stranger: A lot of people are operating on the assumption that mass shootings and fatalities from such shootings have been on the rise. This is not the case.

[boston.com image 481x289]

From: http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/no_increase _in_mass_shootings.html

The article is gone. Do you know if that chart speak solely of multiple-random-target premeditated mass shootings, or all mass shootings (including, for instance, gang violence, which, while evil and tragic, isn′t on the same level as what we′re talking about here)?

Link Try that link, I googled the no_increase... part and found it.

Relevant to your question: There is one not-so-tiny flaw in all of these theories for the increase in mass shootings. And that is that mass shootings have not increased in number or in overall body count, at least not over the past several decades.

Based on data extracted from official police reports to the FBI, the figure below shows annual incident, offender and victim tallies for gun homicides in which at least four people were murdered. Over the thirty-year time frame, an average of about 20 mass murders have occurred annually in the United States with an average death toll of about 100 per year.


Thanks. So, as I thought, does not distinguish whether the shooter knew and had some actual grievance against the victims, gang violence, etc. and the sort of thing I′ve been talking about being caused by hypermania and linked to SSRIs, namely, premeditated multiple-random-victim mass killings.

Popcorn Johnny: COMALite J: Doesn′t matter what states do. The Gun Free School Zones Act is Federal Law, and the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution flatly says that it overrules anything in any State Law or even State Constitution.

Michigan teachers are now allowed to carry guns in schools so you're 100% wrong.


Popcorn Johnny: My mistake, not just teachers, anybody who get "enhanced training" would be able to carry a concealed weapon in Michigan schools.

Link


Link goes to a newspaper story about a law that (as of November 30) hadn′t even been signed yet, let alone had a chance to be implemented and have someone challenge it before the Supreme Court on the Supremacy Clause matter. So no, not 100% wrong.


To All:

How about this idea? Give the NRA and GOP two choices:

• Constitutional Amendment to do unto the Second Amendment as the Twenty-First did unto the Eighteenth, or

• 100% Single Payer universal health care, including mental health care. No Individual Mandate. No Public Option. Single. Payer.

Make it clear to them that in light of this tragedy, one or the other will happen. Pick one.
2012-12-15 01:49:03 AM  
1 votes:
Funny what happens in about 12hrs with the news reports. I left for work and they were reporting that the dad was killed late last night also the older brother, and mom was killed this morning. Now, dad and brother are fine have been interviewed by the FBI and "authorities".

Seems to me this young man was somehow "mis-wired" in the head and did not get enough help to stop this tragedy from happening. I wonder if we had a better mental health care system in place, it would have been able to help this person out or at least been able to see the signs to get him help.

I've had to deal with the FL DCF on occasions and I'll tell you they are very under staffed and the case workers are also handling more than they can. The problem generally occurs when the child becomes 18 and is considered an adult even though they can not function as one. I'm sure FL is not the only state that uses this "age" limit.

If the new health care system has a provision for these types of individuals then I'm all for it, but if there isn't anything to help the mentally ill, then get rid of it, and let's do something else.

It wasn't the guns that killed these young children, it was the unstable mind of a young adult. For what ever reason his mind snapped and decided to KILL.

Working in a retail store with toys as part on my area it was very hard tonight to see young children with parents smiling and laughing and telling what toys the wanted from Santa. I somehow was still able to smile at the young ones and wave at them and even made faces so they would laugh. Not having children of my own, it did warm my heart a little to help me forget this tragedy. I still have to deal with this tomorrow. I hope I can be as strong.

I lost a friend in grade school between Thanksgiving and X-Mass because of a car accident. I went to a Catholic school at the time. The hurt was real, the loss was the first in my life. I realize now, that at the time why religion was kind of important. The support from the Parish was great, but it did not happen from something like this. The closure for me came when I was one of the Alter Boys at the funeral. I new I lost one of my best friends and he would never again ring the bells with me.

OK, I just got dust in my eyes. Good Night, and I hope every says a little prayer for the families.

/Daniel, please watch over us all.
2012-12-15 01:44:05 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: whatshisname: muck4doo: Easier to blame the worlds problems on chunks of metal, right bright boy?

You do realize that by now anybody with an IQ above room temperature thinks you're a blithering idiot, don't you?

You do realize that you blathering idiots who think guns are to blame are still blathering idiots, don't you?


You're the only blathering idiot here. You're the only one still clinging to the absolutely stupid idea of 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. It's nonsense - of course it's people killing people, but guns make people much better killers, and high powered guns, that have the singular use of killing stuff, and widely available; yet farking dumbshiats like yourself refuse to consider the idea that this is part of the problem.

I don't advocate seizing everybody's guns, but you have proven yourself too stupid to own a gun, so I now advocate seizing just yours.
2012-12-15 01:42:03 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: whatshisname: muck4doo: Easier to blame the worlds problems on chunks of metal, right bright boy?

You do realize that by now anybody with an IQ above room temperature thinks you're a blithering idiot, don't you?

You do realize that you blathering idiots who think guns are to blame are still blathering idiots, don't you?


Well, that wasn't predictable in any way.

I predict that the next response will contain the words "pieces of metal"

``Dear parents of the 26 children murdered today. Do not be sad. Your kids were not murdered by a maniac who had far too easy access to weapons of mass destruction. They were killed by little pieces of metal"
2012-12-15 01:36:13 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: You can't reason with tards who think pieces of metal make people kill people.


Or, apparently, people who think that's our argument.
2012-12-15 01:30:16 AM  
1 votes:

whatshisname: muck4doo: The chunk of metal doesn't go killing people on its own.

And still you fail to see the connection between easy access to mass-killing tools and the frequency of their use. If there`s a culture of gun worship, gun conventions, gun stores, and the right to bear guns enshrined in the constitution, don`t you think the average loonie might be more liable to use a gun to make their point than not? You can give them free psychoanalysis until the cows come home, but if until you've cured them all, be careful of what they have in their pockets.


He's not going to get it. He's not mentally capable. Don't feed it.
2012-12-15 01:20:58 AM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Somehow 30,000 deaths a year from car crashes, with car crashes being the #1 cause of death for everyone 4-26 doesn't seem to warrant a sweeping series of federal laws


Did you type that with a straight face? We have laws both state and federal regarding exactly this sort of thing because everybody can admit that vehicles can be dangerous. Hell, it's a law that seatbelts are installed in every vehicle, and in most states it's the law that you must wear them, but there aren't laws in most places about, say, trigger locks.
2012-12-15 01:14:48 AM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: It's worth pointing out that Connecticut, New Jersey, and New York all have stricter laws than the average.


And it looks like they worked well this time.

If some brown dude from the Middle East had snuck across the border and killed those kids, you'd be spending billions on border controls. But because it was one of your own, it's not really an issue. Guns are fine. No worries. You can't take 150 millilitres of suntan lotion on a plane because OMG Brown peoples is blowing us up!"`, but some looney with an arsenal is just fine. What the fark.
2012-12-15 01:13:11 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: whatshisname: muck4doo: Slackfumasta: muck4doo: Slackfumasta: studebaker hoch: What if TV networks had a policy to never make a national news story out of these things when they do happen? Same way TV networks don't televise drunks at ballgames who run onto the field. The idea is not new.

Never gonna happen because capitalism. Too much money to be made by sensationalizing these events with 72 hours of coverage, interviews with 'experts', flashy graphics and catchy slogans.

Not gonna happen because idiots like yourself also want to capitalize this on a way to get your gun grabbing derp message through too.

I never said we should grab guns, moron.

The first step is getting thick-headed numbskulls like yourself to admit that guns are part of the problem too.

The first step is getting morons like you to finally take a look at what is wrong with this country, and stop blaming inanimate objects.

No, the first step is to try and get you to realize that you're arguing irrelevant details. Many other countries have the same issues with mental health and class gaps and their citizens don't solve it by shooting 26 children.

So mental health is irrelevant in this case, and lets look at the gun? I'm done with you. As long as morons keep wanting to focus on the tool rather than the illness this crap is going to continue. Hooray for the easy road though, blame the chunk of inanimate steel.


They actually do have somewhat of a point. You can buy guns at Walmart, dude. Walmart. If you're incapable of seeing how that might be a contributing factor to the problem, you're a part of the problem.

Am I saying Walmart shouldn't be able to sell firearms? Hell no. I want to be able to walk into wally world one day and pick up a TAR-21. But it might move things along towards that goal if we decided that somebody more knowledgeable than the pizza-faced punk who thought Heat was AWESOME was at the counter and had plenty of resources at his avail to keep from handing that Tavor over to the next Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold.

Working with the people that are bringing up the glaring issues is a far better tactic towards getting what you want then obstructing them at every turn. If you work with them they'll likely and usually GLADLY give you the concessions you've raised issue with. But the first step is listening to points of view other than yours, and being apathetic towards the issues they raise. The gun control movement wouldn't exist if there weren't valid and very painful realities to the open and rather wreckless approach we as a nation take towards gun ownership. I know, I'm a gunsmith, and my cousins were shot at at Columbine. A friend of mine was at VT, a CCW no less, you don't want to know what kind of mental anguish he went through. Progress takes apathy and COMPROMISE. Start thinking about that before you open your ignorant mouth. It is with other's concerns in mind that we do best as a society, try to take the pragmatic approach to this situation.
2012-12-15 01:11:48 AM  
1 votes:

LeoffDaGrate: I guess what I'm truly curious about is this: if society already has all those professions that you linked to as "Mandated reporters.", including the police, who are located in every city, town, and suburb, why do we need more? More coverage to spot "psychos"? (your word, not mine). I can tell you right now, if that was their only job, those newly-trained individuals would be reporting a lot of false cases.


Just because there are a lot of people that are mandated reporters doesn't mean each one will pick up on the problems or signs being exhibited by someone with a dangerous mental illness. To give a personal example, in my 11 years of teaching, I've had an average of two students per year who exhibited signs of serious mental/emotional issues. I've spoken with them individually, decided that they presented a danger to themselves or others, and obtained evaluations/treatment for them. Some were suicidal, and thanked me later for helping to save their lives. A few were homicidal, but guess how many committed murders? ZERO. Just as it should be.

Now, keep in mind that at my school, these same students see a MINIMUM of 5 other mandated reporters every single day that DIDN'T pick up on the signs/symptoms. THAT is why increasing the range of mandated reporter laws would be beneficial. The individual won't necessarily exhibit the troubling behaviors in all settings, or in the presence of current mandated reporters. It only takes one to save a life (or 27 lives).

To calm your fears of false reports taking place, keep in mind a report would only refer an individual to a mental health professional who could then evaluate them. If there is no cause for alarm, then there is no further action taken.
2012-12-15 01:07:47 AM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: Keizer_Ghidorah

I'm not really sure why you think that they only do it for "15 minutes of fame", or why you think ignoring it will make it go away. Real life is not the internet.

What do we have to lose by trying?


/aside from the advertising dollars.


I'd rather know when bad things happen, because this is real life where bad things happen every day. Living in a bubble and denying the nature of existence is not an intelligent way to live.
2012-12-15 01:07:39 AM  
1 votes:

wholedamnshow: No one has heard anything definitive yet. As of about an 11pm, our friend's stepmother was asked by the police to provide a picture of our friend. We are not sure exactly what that means. That is all we know at this time


I would think that it is either for a missing persons release, added to a database in reference to a possible future "Jane Doe" mystery or to match with the dead bodies. Although, if she happened to be a substitute teacher on this day and was found dead then they should have already found her ID in her purse, or identified her by way of elimination with all the teachers present and accounted for in the school that day.
2012-12-15 01:05:05 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: whatshisname: muck4doo: Slackfumasta: muck4doo: Slackfumasta: studebaker hoch: What if TV networks had a policy to never make a national news story out of these things when they do happen? Same way TV networks don't televise drunks at ballgames who run onto the field. The idea is not new.

Never gonna happen because capitalism. Too much money to be made by sensationalizing these events with 72 hours of coverage, interviews with 'experts', flashy graphics and catchy slogans.

Not gonna happen because idiots like yourself also want to capitalize this on a way to get your gun grabbing derp message through too.

I never said we should grab guns, moron.

The first step is getting thick-headed numbskulls like yourself to admit that guns are part of the problem too.

The first step is getting morons like you to finally take a look at what is wrong with this country, and stop blaming inanimate objects.

No, the first step is to try and get you to realize that you're arguing irrelevant details. Many other countries have the same issues with mental health and class gaps and their citizens don't solve it by shooting 26 children.

So mental health is irrelevant in this case, and lets look at the gun? I'm done with you. As long as morons keep wanting to focus on the tool rather than the illness this crap is going to continue. Hooray for the easy road though, blame the chunk of inanimate steel.


As I've said over and over and over and over and over again, mental health isn't a non-issue. But giving people unfettered access to guns is an issue. Your inability to see that really says a lot about your agenda.
2012-12-15 12:57:15 AM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: Slackfumasta

studebaker hoch: Why is there no public outcry for autonmous-driving cars? 32,000 or so people died in wrecks last year, most of which were caused by a human being at the wheel. We could save over a thousand times the number of lives taken today by the shooter if we had cars humans didn't need to drive.

Hyperbole aside, we DO have a lot of oversight on cars and driving. That's why people get pulled over and fined for exceeding the speed limit. We have DUI checkpoints. You have to have a license to drive a car, because they ARE dangerous. You have to renew your license regularly. You have to pass a test when you get old, even if you already have your license! It's insanity!

What was your point again?

My point is that we're giving a whole lot of attention right now to a problem we can never fix, while we seem to give very little attention to a fixable problem that, for now, on average, for recent years, is about a thousand times worse.

That's all.


/today sucked.


The problem, though, is that gun rights advocates have dug in so far that you cannot even start a conversation on the topic without them throwing up a very large steel wall.

Nobody argues about the dangers of alcohol, and we have many laws, rules, and regulations around alcohol that allow responsible adults to enjoy it while working to minimize injuries/deaths that happen as a result of alcohol consumption. Now, the number of alcohol related deaths are much higher than gun related deaths, but alcohol is even more ingrained into our society than guns are, so that's not surprising.

We need to have a conversation about how to intelligently handle firearm possession in this country, but there are many really stupid people in this country (and this thread) who refuse to even admit there is a problem (much like people who have drinking problems).
2012-12-15 12:53:09 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: iq_in_binary: birchman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: birchman: So that makes this acceptable then? Collateral damage? We shouldn't try to save even one person because people die sometimes anyway so what's the use? Yes, how foolish of me. You're a visionary.

Tell me the last time you tried to restrict alcohol consumption for the 80,000 deaths each year, including children. I expect a link to your post, or I expect you to admit you're a hypocrite with a political agenda.

You wanna know the funny part? Just like I posted earlier, I don't have a huge problem with guns. Wanna link? Here.

I wanna treat the problem, but unfortunately people don't want to do that either. I like shooting guns, but I'll gladly give it up if it means things like this might not happen as often if we can't get better care for these people to prevent it from happening.

And that's exactly the problem. We can deal with the root of the problem, in ways that are far less intrusive than the solutions you are suggesting. I'm on the Democrats' side here with one caveat: there is already legislation on the books that can prevent this from happening. It just needs teeth. I suggest we give that already existing legislation some pretty damn sharp teeth and all the tools it needs to get the job done before we start trying things that we've tried in the past that utterly failed. I'm fine with a NICS database with access to mental health records. I'm fine with gun ownership being subject to the DSM IV. Hell, I'm even fine with national ID tied into it. And all the wonderful benefits that would come with it.

When we sit down and discuss the situation seriously, and with all important factors in mind, most gun owners are fine with the notion of the mentally ill not being allowed to own firearms. Most gun owners are fine with licensing requirements for special rights like having a CCW. Most gun owners are even fine with licensing procedures on par with what we already have now regarding citizens owning truly milita ...


You're demonizing. That's just as damaging to progress (which requires compromise, by the way) as not wanting progress in the first place. I posit those same conditions to EVERYONE who wants gun control. How do those terms sound? Want heavy regulation? Fine, get rid of some the purely punitive regulation in place that serves no other purpose than to punish gun owners. Give a little, take a little. What does everyone think?
2012-12-15 12:51:01 AM  
1 votes:
Hey guys, thanks for all the thoughts and concern. I'm sorry my posts in the previous thread weren't clear.
Miss WDS is my gf who lives with me, but she was not at the school, nor is she affiliated.

The person we are still hopefully waiting to hear from is a long-time (since childhood) friend of Miss WDS, who is a substitute teacher at that school

No one has heard anything definitive yet. As of about an 11pm, our friend's stepmother was asked by the police to provide a picture of our friend. We are not sure exactly what that means. That is all we know at this time

Again, thank you all for your thoughts and concern.
2012-12-15 12:50:46 AM  
1 votes:
Since we're not going to round up all the mentally ill people and section them off from society, can we all just agree that there should be a gun law in place that prevents someone from buying a firearm if they live with a mentally disturbed person? I'm not saying ban all guns everywhere, but did this mother really need these guns for protection when her kid is crazy? Just turn him loose on any burglers, one report said he couldn't feel pain, he's like The Goddamned Batman.
2012-12-15 12:50:00 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: Slackfumasta: studebaker hoch: What if TV networks had a policy to never make a national news story out of these things when they do happen? Same way TV networks don't televise drunks at ballgames who run onto the field. The idea is not new.

Never gonna happen because capitalism. Too much money to be made by sensationalizing these events with 72 hours of coverage, interviews with 'experts', flashy graphics and catchy slogans.

Not gonna happen because idiots like yourself also want to capitalize this on a way to get your gun grabbing derp message through too.


I never said we should grab guns, moron.

The first step is getting thick-headed numbskulls like yourself to admit that guns are part of the problem too.
2012-12-15 12:47:37 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: If I maul your mother because I'm drunk and driving a car, are you even slightly happier because I didn't do it on purpose? Does that REALLY make you feel better? You have no sense of reality.


I don't know the full story, but from what I gather, my grandfather may have died because of some reasonably severe screwups on the part of some medical staff in the hospital he was in.

I only learned this many years after it happened and time dulls pain, but... you're damn right I fell better than if he were murdered.
2012-12-15 12:45:55 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: And again, I see kids who have no clue as to how the world works, and think of only simplistic things to fix mans ills. Your ideas have been tried, and they have failed. Keep trying it though, I know it makes you feel good. This time with your efforts your silly ideas will work for sure.

/fer sure fer sure


All I see is a man sticking his fingers in his ears screaming 'LALALALALALA ITS JUST A TOOOOOOL', refusing to admit that it's the tool that makes this such a big issue.

After all, what good is a tool if it doesn't make the job easier, and you more effective? If that was not the case, why have tools at all?

Guns are part of the problem here. You sticking your head in your ass does not change that fact.
2012-12-15 12:43:19 AM  
1 votes:

SubBass49: LeoffDaGrate: You want to make "Mandated reporters." Guess what? We have them. They're called civilians and police. You see something suspicious or odd, you report it, they investigate.

And guess what? Such laws are "thrown" at us every single day and we don't have the SLIGHTEST clue that they even exist, let alone understand how they work. Do you know how to make a citizens arrest in your area? Do you know IF you can make a citizen's arrest or under what circumstances?

Want to know how I think you're bullshiatting everyone with your "I work with students who are diagnosed mentally retarded?" No one is diagnosed with mental retardation, and calling others a retard confirms that you don't know what your'e talking about. But good try.

Basically it sounds like you want to make some sort of psychological police force, to profile individuals, to weed out the psychos. So please, tell us all, how in the hell you would plan to do that realistically, without having totally innocent, rational, mentally stable people sent off to the psych ward? Oh, yes, I know, your magic, trained "Mandated reporters." My god, give me a break.

1. People see shiat all the time and don't call. They don't want to intrude. They don't want to judge. They don't want to hurt feelings. Blah, blah blah. Meanwhile we have situations like today's where after the damage is already done, people come forward and say, "Oh yeah...he always talked about violent shiat...he had drawn a map of the school...he had a hit list...he was obsessed with guns...etc." Remember Columbine? How many people came forward and said, "Yeah, they always talked about shooting up the school, but we thought they were joking." Remember that? Those farktards would face some jail time for having not reported such incidents. Fines of up to $10,000 each. Maybe then folks would actually bother to take shiat seriously.

2. Moar words

3. Even Moar Words

4. Even MOAR WORDS


I guess what I'm truly curious about is this: if society already has all those professions that you linked to as "Mandated reporters.", including the police, who are located in every city, town, and suburb, why do we need more? More coverage to spot "psychos"? (your word, not mine). I can tell you right now, if that was their only job, those newly-trained individuals would be reporting a lot of false cases.
2012-12-15 12:41:09 AM  
1 votes:

davidphogan: Spree killings happen everywhere.



Yeah, there was one in China today, as well. Dude with a knife killed 22 people. Oh, wait. None of his victims died. I wonder what the variable was in the Newtown massacre that made the death toll so much higher...
2012-12-15 12:36:07 AM  
1 votes:

LeoffDaGrate: You want to make "Mandated reporters." Guess what? We have them. They're called civilians and police. You see something suspicious or odd, you report it, they investigate.

And guess what? Such laws are "thrown" at us every single day and we don't have the SLIGHTEST clue that they even exist, let alone understand how they work. Do you know how to make a citizens arrest in your area? Do you know IF you can make a citizen's arrest or under what circumstances?

Want to know how I think you're bullshiatting everyone with your "I work with students who are diagnosed mentally retarded?" No one is diagnosed with mental retardation, and calling others a retard confirms that you don't know what your'e talking about. But good try.

Basically it sounds like you want to make some sort of psychological police force, to profile individuals, to weed out the psychos. So please, tell us all, how in the hell you would plan to do that realistically, without having totally innocent, rational, mentally stable people sent off to the psych ward? Oh, yes, I know, your magic, trained "Mandated reporters." My god, give me a break.


1. People see shiat all the time and don't call. They don't want to intrude. They don't want to judge. They don't want to hurt feelings. Blah, blah blah. Meanwhile we have situations like today's where after the damage is already done, people come forward and say, "Oh yeah...he always talked about violent shiat...he had drawn a map of the school...he had a hit list...he was obsessed with guns...etc." Remember Columbine? How many people came forward and said, "Yeah, they always talked about shooting up the school, but we thought they were joking." Remember that? Those farktards would face some jail time for having not reported such incidents. Fines of up to $10,000 each. Maybe then folks would actually bother to take shiat seriously.

2. Guess what...WE COULD PUBLICIZE THIS LAW. Make a national hotline number. Make it easy to remember...just like 911. A call to the number would walk you through the process step by step, so there'd be no confusion as to how the law works. Wouldn't be hard at all.

3. No one is diagnosed with mental retardation? That's funny...I have three student IEPs sitting on my desk at school that have that listed as the students' primary disability. But keep up your bullshiat...it's fooling no one.

4. No one gets locked in a psych ward when reported by a mandated reporter...Jesus Christ you're ignorant. Nice outrage over something you know nothing about though. A report from a mandated reporter gets you seen by a mental health professional who can evaluate you to see if there's any merit to the report. You're not locked away in a straight jacket, you farking moron. You sit on a couch in an office and talk to a nice lady with a soothing voice who can help find out what's going on. IF you require a 72 hour mental health hold (usually only happens in cases of threatened suicide), it's all handled very discreetly.

/now shut the fark up and
2012-12-15 12:34:41 AM  
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Proving my point as to how the type of weapons were irrelevant to the death toll in this case, it was over 40 minutes after the 911 call when police entered the school.



Police were there within a minute. How long it took them to actually get inside the school might have had something to do with the knowledge that there was a person or persons ARMED WITH GUNS inside. Had the call been "there's a dude swinging a baseball bat at kids" you can bet the police would have gone inside a lot faster.
2012-12-15 12:29:50 AM  
1 votes:
The Onion Reports: F*ck Everything.
2012-12-15 12:27:39 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Keizer_Ghidorah: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Keizer_Ghidorah: See, here's the thing: those are ACCIDENTS, people making mistakes either because of bad luck or their own stupidity. They weren't deliberately and cold-bloodedly murdered by bathtubs, cars, coconuts, etc.

Child drownings are negligence. It is the parents' own stupidity for the vast majority of their deaths. Get a kid and a pool, then tell me otherwise..

Then you know something? You address the root. You educate the parents, remind them not to take chances with their children, and punish them if they fark up. You don't say "Well, people die, so why should we care?".

You don't care about these murdered children because people die in skiing accidents. I'm sorry, I can not and will not understand that mentality, nor the mentality of constantly comparing accidents and negligence to premeditated cold-blooded murder.

If I maul your mother because I'm drunk and driving a car, are you even slightly happier because I didn't do it on purpose? Does that REALLY make you feel better? You have no sense of reality.


I'd be pissed off no matter how you harmed her, and if you were at fault for it by being drunk, distracted, negligent, etc, I'd be pissed even more. And I'd be EXTREMELY pissed if you did it deliberately.

THAT'S NOT THE FARKING POINT.

According to you, we shouldn't give a flying shiat about people who die. And I'm saying yes, we should, especially if it's about things that can be mitigated and helped. People are always going to have accidents, and that's the random part of life. But we CAN do something about things like mental problems, which will help lower the instances of DELIBERATE PREMEDITATED MURDER.

Do. You. Fricking. Understand. This. Now?
2012-12-15 12:26:19 AM  
1 votes:

Giltric: Oh no, I very much understood what you were saying but you obviously had no idea how stupid what you said, was.

You're talking about reporting people based on observable "mental issues" right? not getting victims of domestic abuse help, etc....Would you have to call an automated phone system and hit 1 for suicidal thoughts and 2 for all i wanted was a pepsi? Would the guys with butterfly nets show up and ask you some questions, would they take you somewhere for 2 days or so where other people with butterfly nets and haughty taughty degrees ask you questions?

You want people to undergo compulsory observation...based on "tips"....right?

What you said was crazy....this is why we need real ID or w/e it is online so crazies like you can't be anonymous.and those who agree with the assessment could report you.


1. If it's such a shiatty idea, why has is there such a long list of professions that are required to comply?

2. Observable mental issues? No. This isn't about calling in the guy who digs through dumpsters at 3am and talks to the voices in his head. But if you see or hear someone expressing suicidal/homicidal ideation, you're damn straight it has to be reported. Your buddy says one drunken night, "That biatch..I loved her, but she screwed around with Mike from her work...but I'm gonna show them...(makes gun shape with his hand and simulates pulling trigger)." That's a reporting...unless of course your loyalty to a murderous fark is more important that 6 months in prison and a $10,000 fine. Take your pick.

3. Such a system would also help those in abusive situations. How many of us have known someone on Facebook who has complained about someone being physically or emotionally abusive? People say, "Oh girl...just leave him...he's not good for you...etc." Instead of that bullshiat, you could call a social-worker who would then contact the person and offer them services to get them out of the abusive situation.

4. I'd post the same suggestion with my full name (and have already). Given that I post other stuff on Fark though, I wont be sharing my name with you. Your irrational response to my suggestion has me wondering about your stability.
2012-12-15 12:14:50 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: No, we can work on better solutions to identifying the mentally ill. Of course, this then next comes with the problem of who is judge of that.


Well, one reason I don't have you on ignore is that generally you're right even when you're being snarky. How DO we judge who is too mentally ill to be in society? How do we enforce treatment? How do we prevent tragedies like this one without going back to the even worse tragedies that got us into this mess, when anyone could be--and often was--committed just on the say-so of their families or an annoyed cop?

People up above on this thread are already calling for mandated reporting from anyone who "knows" their coworkers or family "might' be having problems, or requiring mental health screenings for jobs/drivers licenses/gun ownership/whatever without the slightest thought for what that might entail. What next, I wonder--forced hospitalization for people who act too crazy? Court-ordered medication regimens? Employers who can require employees to prove they're sane?

I am a big fan of Laura's Law, btw, which allows court-ordered assisted outpatient treatment for felons in lieu of continued jail time for mentally ill offenders. But at the same time, I never want to see anyone required to take medication or undergo hospitalization who doesn't want it. And I'll be damned if I want to see a return to a time when anyone could be committed because their family thought they were acting nutty or they were felt to be a "danger to society". The dangers of finding better ways to "identify the mentally ill" are great. The risk of further stigmatizing a group already marginalized is tremendous, and the likelihood of help is tiny. The danger to society posed by the mentally ill is very small, tragedies like today notwithstanding. I hope that it doesn't spiral out of control. Probably it will, though.
2012-12-15 12:14:37 AM  
1 votes:

Gawdzila: Interesting story, I'm glad to hear your psychologist and/or psychiatrist has been able to help you a bit. I agree that psychological evaluations every so often should be pretty easy to do, and should help identify people who are disturbed or having trouble properly dealing with emotions.


My motivating factor for getting help myself was finding out that my uncle killed his fiancee when he was in his mid 20s under the same problems I was facing myself. It was hush hush my whole life until he was released from prison. I've had a weird obsession with death since I was a child (no none of that emo/goth stuff) and I can see beauty in tragedies even though I know killing is supposed to be wrong. I know it's not socially acceptable so I don't talk about it but I guess you could put it in line with the quote, "Some men just want to watch the world burn." At least I was able to get help before I lost all my marbles and I have psychs to talk to every month now. (Thanks Veteran Affairs!)
2012-12-15 12:13:21 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Keizer_Ghidorah: See, here's the thing: those are ACCIDENTS, people making mistakes either because of bad luck or their own stupidity. They weren't deliberately and cold-bloodedly murdered by bathtubs, cars, coconuts, etc.

Child drownings are negligence. It is the parents' own stupidity for the vast majority of their deaths. Get a kid and a pool, then tell me otherwise..


Then you know something? You address the root. You educate the parents, remind them not to take chances with their children, and punish them if they fark up. You don't say "Well, people die, so why should we care?".

You don't care about these murdered children because people die in skiing accidents. I'm sorry, I can not and will not understand that mentality, nor the mentality of constantly comparing accidents and negligence to premeditated cold-blooded murder.
2012-12-15 12:09:14 AM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: See my above post on who gets to become judge of who gets to own what. What you need to do is stop blaming the tool. It's a tool. The statement of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true, even when it doesn't involve guns.


I'm going to stick with weapon.
2012-12-15 12:07:44 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: birchman: BraveNewCheneyWorld: birchman: Let's just make it as easy as possible for unstable people to mow down as many 5 year olds as possible if they're going to do it anyway. After all, you've gotta have fun peppering targets as quickly as possible out on the range right?

Because we have to alter our entire society based on something that happens far less often than a lottery super jackpot and kills fewer people each year than the number of people who fall down stairs, or drown in bathtubs? This was a terrible tragedy, but in a world with billions of people and growing, this kind of thing will happen more an more frequently. In the grand scale if these things happen less often than childhood drownings, we should be happy that we're so lucky. If you want to save children, your efforts would be better placed in forcing parents to watch children while they're near water.

Tell that to the parents of the kids murdered today. I'm sure they'll agree. Remind them how lucky they are.

Do you have any idea how many children died this year alone due to drowning as a result of negligent parents? Want to know how lucky they are that they don't have a needle in their arm? You might want to check some statistics. Want to know how many people died today due to entirely preventable causes? It dwarfs this, you ignorant fool.


So that makes this acceptable then? Collateral damage? We shouldn't try to save even one person because people die sometimes anyway so what's the use? Yes, how foolish of me. You're a visionary.
2012-12-15 12:06:39 AM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: Why is there no public outcry for autonmous-driving cars? 32,000 or so people died in wrecks last year, most of which were caused by a human being at the wheel. We could save over a thousand times the number of lives taken today by the shooter if we had cars humans didn't need to drive.


Hyperbole aside, we DO have a lot of oversight on cars and driving. That's why people get pulled over and fined for exceeding the speed limit. We have DUI checkpoints. You have to have a license to drive a car, because they ARE dangerous. You have to renew your license regularly. You have to pass a test when you get old, even if you already have your license! It's insanity!

What was your point again?
2012-12-15 12:03:40 AM  
1 votes:

Giltric: SubBass49: Given that people who knew this shooter KNEW that he was off his rocker, I'd like to see "mandated reporter laws" extended to all adults age 18 and up. Know a psycho? Report them for treatment ASAP or your ass is getting locked up when they do some crazy shiat.

We should extend that to people who know drug dealers and cops who know of dirty cops.... and something something in one hand with something something in the other.

REMEMBER THAT TIME WHEN ALL I WANTED WAS A PEPSI AND YOU INSISTED THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG SO YOU CALLED THAT NUMBER????? WELL FARKING DO YA!!!???

We lock people up when the DNA evidence doesn't match up and the defendent was doing a 6 month tour on the international space station when the crime was committed...and you want to leave it up to fellow citizens, which includes farkers, to report eachother? How many deaths are you trying to cause?


Here's you ----------------------------->

Here's the point -----> .

Looks like you missed it.

Mandated reporter laws have absolutely nothing to do with locking people up or arresting them. They have to do with obtaining treatment, safety, or services for people with serious issues. For victims of abuse, they're designed to get them to safety. For people expressing homicidal/suicidal thoughts, they're designed for obtaining mental-health evaluations.

Anything else you'd like to completely misunderstand?
2012-12-15 12:03:39 AM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: If we're so worried about 30 or so people dying in a school shooting that we're willing to change national policy and ban private firearms, why stop there?

Why is there no public outcry for autonmous-driving cars? 32,000 or so people died in wrecks last year, most of which were caused by a human being at the wheel. We could save over a thousand times the number of lives taken today by the shooter if we had cars humans didn't need to drive.

Why do we not demand our elected representatitives embark on a program to have all cars that use public roadways self-driving? Why not push our government for an Apollo-program approach to solving the problem within ten years? And prevent tens of thousands of people from dying every year on our roads. Each one of them a husband, a wife, a boyfriend, a sister, a kindergarten child.

Obviously there will be a transition, we'll deal. Horses shared the road with cars once. We got past that awkward stage, we can do this too.

Cheap and powerful. Mandate the systems be installed in all new vehicles. It will raise the price of a new car. So did crash safety, airbags, all the engineering in energy absorption and crumple zones, stuff nobody thinks about. We'll just have to suck that up. In exchange, we could do away with speed limits, traffic signals, stop signs, and DUI laws. You could recline your seat and sleep as you drove, perhaps telling the computer to sound a wake-up alarm when you're half an hour away from your destination.

It's within our technological grasp right now. Computers, cameras, lasers, radar, wireless data links are all commodity-priced anymore. If we don't do it, someone else will, just as they are doing with elecric cars. f we just sit on our dicks forever we'll end up buying autonomous vehicle technology from the Germans or Japanese like so many other things. Why not do it ourselves?

For as hard as we spazzed on 9/11, you'd think the thought of saving over ten 9/11's worth of innocent American l ...


Again, accidents =/= deliberate murders.
2012-12-15 12:02:16 AM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: birchman: Let's just make it as easy as possible for unstable people to mow down as many 5 year olds as possible if they're going to do it anyway. After all, you've gotta have fun peppering targets as quickly as possible out on the range right?

Because we have to alter our entire society based on something that happens far less often than a lottery super jackpot and kills fewer people each year than the number of people who fall down stairs, or drown in bathtubs? This was a terrible tragedy, but in a world with billions of people and growing, this kind of thing will happen more an more frequently. In the grand scale if these things happen less often than childhood drownings, we should be happy that we're so lucky. If you want to save children, your efforts would be better placed in forcing parents to watch children while they're near water.


See, here's the thing: those are ACCIDENTS, people making mistakes either because of bad luck or their own stupidity. They weren't deliberately and cold-bloodedly murdered by bathtubs, cars, coconuts, etc.
2012-12-15 12:02:10 AM  
1 votes:

SubBass49: Just thought of this a little bit ago...

As a teacher, I'm a mandated reporter...meaning that if I catch wind that a student is undergoing abuse of any type, or has suicidal or homicidal thoughts, I am REQUIRED BY LAW to report it to an administrator, social-worker, child-protective services agent, or psychologist. Failure to comply can result in jail time, the end of my career, and/or a fine.

Given that people who knew this shooter KNEW that he was off his rocker, I'd like to see "mandated reporter laws" extended to all adults age 18 and up. Know a psycho? Report them for treatment ASAP or your ass is getting locked up when they do some crazy shiat.

Might be a good start...


This is one of the stupidest ideas I've read in this thread, and with a thread of well over 2000 comments, that's saying something.

"Know a psycho? Report them for treatment ASAP..." OK, define "Psycho" for us all, please. Seeing as how you somehow have inner knowledge of mental instability and how to spot it in others, please share so we can all just instantly spot the psychos in our world and report them!

Wow, my neighbor, he looks like a psycho. Well, not really, but he does own a gun, and I caught him yelling at a bird one time, so yeah, that guy should be locked away. Besides, I never really liked him...

And that woman there, yeah, the homeless one on the street corner babbling to herself. PSYCHO! She needs to be put away because she's definitely NOT like us.

Apparently we're supposed to all take psychology classes now.
2012-12-15 12:00:10 AM  
1 votes:
If we're so worried about 30 or so people dying in a school shooting that we're willing to change national policy and ban private firearms, why stop there?

Why is there no public outcry for autonmous-driving cars? 32,000 or so people died in wrecks last year, most of which were caused by a human being at the wheel. We could save over a thousand times the number of lives taken today by the shooter if we had cars humans didn't need to drive.

Why do we not demand our elected representatitives embark on a program to have all cars that use public roadways self-driving? Why not push our government for an Apollo-program approach to solving the problem within ten years? And prevent tens of thousands of people from dying every year on our roads. Each one of them a husband, a wife, a boyfriend, a sister, a kindergarten child.

Obviously there will be a transition, we'll deal. Horses shared the road with cars once. We got past that awkward stage, we can do this too.

Cheap and powerful. Mandate the systems be installed in all new vehicles. It will raise the price of a new car. So did crash safety, airbags, all the engineering in energy absorption and crumple zones, stuff nobody thinks about. We'll just have to suck that up. In exchange, we could do away with speed limits, traffic signals, stop signs, and DUI laws. You could recline your seat and sleep as you drove, perhaps telling the computer to sound a wake-up alarm when you're half an hour away from your destination.

It's within our technological grasp right now. Computers, cameras, lasers, radar, wireless data links are all commodity-priced anymore. If we don't do it, someone else will, just as they are doing with elecric cars. f we just sit on our dicks forever we'll end up buying autonomous vehicle technology from the Germans or Japanese like so many other things. Why not do it ourselves?

For as hard as we spazzed on 9/11, you'd think the thought of saving over ten 9/11's worth of innocent American lives would be worth putting some effort into.

But I hear so little. Companies like Google are making signifcant advances, but can't possibly solve the problem. We need our government to decide to do it, much as they once decided to build the Interstate system.

It would change a lot of things.

Instead, I just hear fear TV blaring its message. "27 children and teachers were killed by a lunatic today, let's change the constitution"

Hmmmm
2012-12-14 11:55:33 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: iq_in_binary: birchman: iq_in_binary: birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.

You've obviously never heard of Mr. Miculek, have you. Hell, Cho managed to ring up his body count without extended magazines or any of the "killing machine" accessories people like to drone on about. Standard sized mags, and he was quite proficient at reloading.

Hell, even I can reload a revolver in less than a second with a SpeedLoader, and I hate the damn things. 2 seconds with speed strips.

Like I said, ask jared loughner what happens when you stop to reload.

How about I ask the farkers that shot at my cousins at Columbine? Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold got to reload to their heart's content.

Oh yeah, that was during the Assault Weapons Ban. Wasn't the Assault Weapons Ban supposed to prevent Columbine?

I can also ask Holmes. Oh yeah, he was using a C Mag, which anybody with half a brain would have avoided due to their notorious reputation for jamming, which is exactly what happened to him.

A ban certainly won't solve things overnight, but it's not a reason not to try. Like I told you much earlier when you suddenly decided to stop replying to me, you aren't the problem as a law abiding gun owner, you're not a killer. Just remember that because you NEED these semi-automatic weapons, this is the price. This is what happens because you just can't give them up. Unstable people can also get them just like you. And the same people who argue til they're blue in the face for gun rights refuse to accept sweeping health care reform that will help these people before they do something like this. Rationalize it away all you want, I'm not saying you directly approve ...


A ban was in place for a DECADE and it didn't work. It didn't keep Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold from shooting at my cousins. It didn't keep over 20 different spree killings from happening. It didn't do shiat. Bans have had absolutely no effect in this country, most of the municipalities that enacted them soon found themselves inundated with gun crime. DC, Chicago, New York, you name it. We've tried bans again and again and again and again. It's like Republicans with Tax Cuts, Jesus, and Abstinence Only education. Every time you get called on the utter ineffectiveness of your policies you always respond with "But this time we'll do it MOAR HARDER and it will totally work!"

Sorry, I may have been able to evolve to the point that even I myself have progressed from being a "Modern Conservative" who believed the whole Randian philosophy to buying into Universal Healthcare, progressiveness in general in regards to fiscal policy and environmental issues. I started calling myself a Liberal who still likes guns after my conservative friends teased me enough about it, but I've done enough research into this particular issue to know that it JUST DOES NOT WORK. Getting more comprehensive? Fine. Dealing with the mental health aspect? Fine. But bans do not work. Have not, do not, will not. There is simply too much damning data out there that the people who refuse to respect this point are starting to look like Global Climate Change deniers. You're starting to look silly in the eyes of anybody who actually pays attention to the numbers. I'll give the NRA their ration of shiat for pushing things like "Stand Your Ground" and that whole realm of utter nonsense but for you to sit back and simply ignore all the data that point to prohibition being utterly and totally useless in regards to curbing crime related to a particular commodity is getting to be patently ridiculous. I left the Republican party for that stupidity, don't participate in it yourself.
2012-12-14 11:53:38 PM  
1 votes:

Keizer_Ghidorah: Okay, so.

We can't touch guns or anything to do with guns, because half the country sees that as Satanic totalitarian New World Order liberal demonic socialism communism, and if guns are regulated then everyone will mass murder with bats and knives and grenades and fertilizer bombs.

We can't try better mental health care because states don't want to spend money on anything worthwhile and a good percent of the population seems to think that it's better to execute or sterilize the mentally imbalanced than help them.

We can't try adjusting our culture and attitudes because media has no effect on anybody, half the country is already screaming about how society is falling apart because it's no longer the 1950's, and Americans will think that we'll be seen as weak and pitiful and small if we're not being the most gung-ho violence-centric country on Earth.

So... how should we attempt to fix the matter of criminals and the mentally-unbalanced harming and killing people?


Oh, you know, we just SHOULD.

Like my alternative of making schools less permeable is impossible because we can't turn schools into locked fortresses on the one hand, but on the other, killers will just find another route of access or kill whoever might be assigned to escort them in first.

It's the knee-jerk response in reverse, if that's the correct label: If you can't come up with a solution that immediately and forever fixes the problem in one blow, then there is no solution worth trying so we'll just let things proceed as they are instead of trying to develop workable solutions.
2012-12-14 11:49:33 PM  
1 votes:

vrax: Being a bit of a connoisseur of the horrific, I have to say that there are actually very few films out there, certainly major ones, that portray consequence-free violence. Usually, the consequences for violence are extreme. Which movies or games are you guys looking at? If you are talking about some odd idea of instant karma with regard to violence in movies, well that doesn't exist in real life either.


Actually, what is meant by that phrase, or things like it, is the fact that violent acts are not shown as painful or horrible to the person to whom the act is committed (ie. gunshot wounds to the body core involve quick death without significant blood loss or prolonged death, fist fights are drawn out with significantly violent blows not resulting in major trauma) or as having a consequence on people unrelated to the narrative (ie. the family of the person who dies experiencing mourning, seeing the body on the morgue table, etc.), or people engaged in violence that has overall an unrealistic set of consequences (ie. people jumping through a window without major cutting, people walking away from bomb explosions in near proximity).

As a perfectly silly example from a narrative standpoint, consider the fact that in the opening minutes of "Star Wars: A New Hope," dozens of storm troopers and rebel troopers are killed without anyone actually mourning their death or trying to cope with the loss of their loved ones. Nobody experiences post-traumatic stress. Nobody's bowels empty or vomit at the experience. Nobody is hit in such a way that horrible, but non-fatal injuries result. I realize that they can't cut to these scenes, because it derails the narrative, and I realize that from a ratings standpoint they can't treat it like "Saving Private Ryan," but from a media effects standpoint, it grounds the violence in an inauthentic expression of aggression and its results, and treats the hostility on screen in an inauthentic and unrealistic manner.
2012-12-14 11:47:43 PM  
1 votes:
Some accounts say he was a weird, anti-social kid with a mild form of autism. LINK.

I wonder what his Fark handle is.
2012-12-14 11:47:12 PM  
1 votes:

Richard Flaccid: birchman: A ban certainly won't solve things overnight, but it's not a reason not to try. Like I told you much earlier when you suddenly decided to stop replying to me, you aren't the problem as a law abiding gun owner, you're not a killer. Just remember that because you NEED these semi-automatic weapons, this is the price. This is what happens because you just can't give them up. Unstable people can also get them just like you. And the same people who argue til they're blue in the face for gun rights refuse to accept sweeping health care reform that will help these people before they do something like this. Rationalize it away all you want, I'm not saying you directly approve of this kind of stuff, but you allow it to happen because you're selfish and NEED your adrenaline rush. Sleep tight, a lot of former parents tonight will not.

agreed. Hopefully motorcycles next. No one needs them and they kill hundreds of innocent people each year. I find them scary and they should be banned!


Innocent how? If you choose to ride a bike you know the dangers. None of those kids chose to look down the barrel of a gun.
2012-12-14 11:43:20 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: pedrop357: birchman: iq_in_binary: birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.

You've obviously never heard of Mr. Miculek, have you. Hell, Cho managed to ring up his body count without extended magazines or any of the "killing machine" accessories people like to drone on about. Standard sized mags, and he was quite proficient at reloading.

Hell, even I can reload a revolver in less than a second with a SpeedLoader, and I hate the damn things. 2 seconds with speed strips.

Like I said, ask jared loughner what happens when you stop to reload.

If this guy fired 100 rounds, he probably reloaded and wasn't stopped. Unless he had a 100rd drum mag in the AR (we'd have probably heard by now), he could have reloaded all three twice-2x30 for the AR and 2*2*15 for the pistols. If the rifle wasn't used, he definitely reloaded.

Reloading 2 9mm with extended clips 3 times is much different than reloading 2 six-shooters 8 or 9 times. I grew up in a household full of guns, I know what I'm talking about. And you know exactly what I mean, you just won't admit it because it's not convenient to your position.


If you grew up with guns, you would know why that word shut down your entire argument.
2012-12-14 11:41:56 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: birchman: Reloading 2 9mm with extended clips 3 times is much different than reloading 2 six-shooters 8 or 9 times. I grew up in a household full of guns, I know what I'm talking about. And you know exactly what I mean, you just won't admit it because it's not convenient to your position

Who said he had extended magazines? People can reload revolvers with speed loaders and this guy didn't need to do it with any speed. He had quite a few minutes before the police showed up and was targeting small children.


The police are not the only ones that can tackle the guy. But hey, you're right. Let's just make it as easy as possible for unstable people to mow down as many 5 year olds as possible if they're going to do it anyway. After all, you've gotta have fun peppering targets as quickly as possible out on the range right?
2012-12-14 11:39:17 PM  
1 votes:
I wish I was Superman.

I wish I could fly around the world so fast that time rewinds, so I could stop things like this from happening in the first place.

I wish I was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, so I could stop psychotics from doing things like what happened today.

I would sell MY IMMORTAL SOUL if it meant ONE of these kids would come back to life, and be with their family again.

So...WHY WON'T SOMEONE BUY IT?!

Why is a kindergarten class dead, while I'M still roaming the Earth? What makes MY wretched life of sin worth more than those of 20 little kids?!

I. DON'T. GET. IT. >_<

This world is rotten to the core, and I can't fix it.

Superman could.

So, why aren't I Superman?
2012-12-14 11:37:44 PM  
1 votes:
Goddamn, a page 3 2k+ thread?

It's horrible that this happened. I don't like kids, I'm uncomfortable around them (30 year old male, every time someone has a kid they disappear), but seriously, if this guy hadn't suicided we might get German on the sentencing.

The really really bad bits of Germany.
2012-12-14 11:36:42 PM  
1 votes:
muck4doo:

The tools have been there a long time, yet we didn't see these kind of things happening like they are now. No, it's not the tool. Blaming the tool is the easy way to go. Our society has become sick, but no one wants to look at that. Easier to just blame the tool and run along.

Well there we go again disagreeing on use of the word "tool". I won't disagree that there's a societal issue at hand. But once you combine it with readily available weapons, er I mean tools, we get situations like this.
2012-12-14 11:36:18 PM  
1 votes:

muck4doo: It's not the tool used, but why did this asshat think it was okay to take a bunch of children with him. Would you have been happier if he used gasoline and matches like Happy Land instead?


He didn't now, did he? He used what he felt would be the most efficient means that were available But instead of discussing those means and availability, we're fantasizing about things that didn't happen.
2012-12-14 11:30:56 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: birchman: iq_in_binary: birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.

You've obviously never heard of Mr. Miculek, have you. Hell, Cho managed to ring up his body count without extended magazines or any of the "killing machine" accessories people like to drone on about. Standard sized mags, and he was quite proficient at reloading.

Hell, even I can reload a revolver in less than a second with a SpeedLoader, and I hate the damn things. 2 seconds with speed strips.

Like I said, ask jared loughner what happens when you stop to reload.

If this guy fired 100 rounds, he probably reloaded and wasn't stopped. Unless he had a 100rd drum mag in the AR (we'd have probably heard by now), he could have reloaded all three twice-2x30 for the AR and 2*2*15 for the pistols. If the rifle wasn't used, he definitely reloaded.


Reloading 2 9mm with extended clips 3 times is much different than reloading 2 six-shooters 8 or 9 times. I grew up in a household full of guns, I know what I'm talking about. And you know exactly what I mean, you just won't admit it because it's not convenient to your position.
2012-12-14 11:25:32 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: The premise of the mental health argument is that something magical will fix these events from happening. Im asking HOW?


No the premise is not based on "magic", WTF are you talking about? Psychological therapy and counseling have been helping people for decades.
The way it helps is by identifying people who might have problems so that you can give them counseling before they ever become severe enough to be locked up in a mental facility. Emotional and psychological problems need to be treated the same way that a flu or infection is; it needs to be made socially acceptable -- in fact encouraged -- to seek counseling the same way that people get check-ups and prescriptions. The aim isn't to prevent these tragedies right before they happen, the aim is to turn around the people who might do these things months or years before they ever get there. These people have extreme amounts of anger or despair stewing inside them for a long time, they need to be made to deal with it in a constructive instead of destructive way.
2012-12-14 11:22:35 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: pedrop357: birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.

Yes he would. It's just a matter of reloading, which the shooter apparently had plenty of time to do.

Also, I'm reading now that he may not have used the rifle (rumor only)...

No, that's when he gets tackled or people run away. How fast can you load a revolver? Dumbass.


Ask jared loughner what happens when you stop to reload.
2012-12-14 11:21:14 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...

The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.


You've obviously never heard of Mr. Miculek, have you. Hell, Cho managed to ring up his body count without extended magazines or any of the "killing machine" accessories people like to drone on about. Standard sized mags, and he was quite proficient at reloading.

Hell, even I can reload a revolver in less than a second with a SpeedLoader, and I hate the damn things. 2 seconds with speed strips.
2012-12-14 11:15:51 PM  
1 votes:

COMALite J: Popcorn Johnny: netweavr: Probably a common way of doing things. It avoids conflict with anyone.

NRA: "CCW's are legal in schools."
School: "Number of such approvals given is: 0."

Michigan just passed a law that allows CCW holders to carry them in schools and other normally "gun free" zones. I won't be surprised when other states do the same.

Doesn′t matter what states do. The Gun Free School Zones Act is Federal Law, and the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution flatly says that it overrules anything in any State Law or even State Constitution.

(Same reason that States legalizing cannabis may be cool and all, but has no actual effect if the Feds decide to enforce their laws.)


Yes but it's going to be a much harder prospect for them when they cannot count on the local LEO's offering any assistance. Their budget now has to inflate WILDLY in order to maintain the same level of enforcement. They can't use local jails to book the offenders, can't count on the local SWAT team to assist their agents, nor can they expect to draw on the local resources that the DEA relies on for practically everything they do. They can't even reasonably expect backup if a shootout happens in CO anymore. They can try to enforce the federal statutes if they want, but it's now a lonely world out there for them, and that makes the prospect MUCH less attractive.
2012-12-14 11:14:50 PM  
1 votes:
Nancy Lanza was "very nice, very pleasant and always very appreciative of our work," said Dan Holmes, owner of Holmes Fine Gardens, a landscaping firm in Newtown. Holmes decorated Nancy yard with Christmas garlands and lights. Holmes said Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who once showed him a "really nice, high-end rifle" she had purchased. "She said she would often go target shooting with her kids," said Holmes. "She was always very concerned about her son."

Twenty little kids are dead because of some gun-owning idiot. Way to go Nancy Lanza. Way to go NRA. I'm glad you've brought this wonderful Christmas to the (wealthy, white) people of Newtown, Conn.

This shiat doesn't happen to people with $120,000 average incomes. There is going to be hell to pay. We're coming for your guns; hopefully, to be pried from your cold, dead fingers.
2012-12-14 11:05:39 PM  
1 votes:

Giltric: Why do people use scary words like ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!! to describe the pistols used in the massacre..... and instead of scaring people with a description of BATSHIAT INSANE!!!! for the shooter, they use "personality disorder"...


The batshiat insane person wouldn't have been able to kill 50 people with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a 6-shot revolver.
2012-12-14 11:04:16 PM  
1 votes:

ChuDogg: rufus-t-firefly: Dimensio: utah dude: pro-gun. lifetime NRA. anti-223 anti-civillian-m4/ar-15/m16's. they're just toys designed for killing people.

No, they are not.

Are they not toys, or not designed for killing people?

It's illegal to hunt with an AR-15 in some states, IIRC. So there's no legal use for them other than target practice or penis enhancement.

Those laws are because they are less powerful. The concern is that deer and other game only get wounded and die a slow, drawn out death. They mandate more powerful guns so that the kill is more clean and instant.


Unfortunately they also have this effect on humans.
2012-12-14 11:04:08 PM  
1 votes:

jpbreon: Your implication is that banning guns will make guns go away (false) and that these crimes are committed because of the existence of guns (false).


Banning guns will temper the gun culture in America and make guns less accessible to someone who may be insane or just sick. Rather than killing 25 people before they kill themselves, they'll just sit in the garage with the car running. It may not stop assaults, but it will reduce their severity. Easy access to weapons which can do incredible damage is never a good thing. It exaggerates the consequences of bad decisions and enables truly sick people.
2012-12-14 11:02:09 PM  
1 votes:

Gawdzila: That said, I think your idea that better mental health care is a "stupid deflection", and especially your beyond-ridiculous characterization of how it would work, are both completely and utterly daft. Maybe you're just being a troll, but nobody is advocating some sort of fascist forced lock-up plan for anyone suspected of being a violent crazy. It would help WAY MORE than "a little" for us to change how mental health is both conducted and treated from a cultural standpoint, and it would help with a lot more than just curbing school shootings.

 

Like I said in part 2 of this whole discussion. A psych eval is child's play before hand. I didn't know I seriously had a problem until my early 20's when coworkers kept saying I was not normal (didn't register sadness on their part or how to deal with their "sad" stories), friends had told me before that I was off but I just shrugged at it. I was forced to go to 2 different mental health screenings, I didn't want help so the psychs both ended up coming to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong with me because I didn't lead them in that direction. In fact I hated people but as time went on I grew increasingly paranoid and threatened by my coworkers. Just being around people will stress me out and will piss me off if you aren't in my circle. I went for help and knew what answers to elaborate on without raising serious alarms (even though my thoughts differ somewhat).

I've now done some work with a psych to help me understand feelings. I can identify them but I don't know how to express depression or sadness and I don't know how to console someone in that emotional state of mind.

/I take Seroquel and Mirtazapine. It doesn't help me completely but it allows me to function around people with a lot less stress and anger
2012-12-14 10:58:49 PM  
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: netweavr: Probably a common way of doing things. It avoids conflict with anyone.

NRA: "CCW's are legal in schools."
School: "Number of such approvals given is: 0."

Michigan just passed a law that allows CCW holders to carry them in schools and other normally "gun free" zones. I won't be surprised when other states do the same.


Doesn′t matter what states do. The Gun Free School Zones Act is Federal Law, and the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution flatly says that it overrules anything in any State Law or even State Constitution.

(Same reason that States legalizing cannabis may be cool and all, but has no actual effect if the Feds decide to enforce their laws.)
2012-12-14 10:58:15 PM  
1 votes:
Keizer_Ghidorah

studebaker hoch: In other news, approximately 90 people will have died on our roadways today in motor vehicle accidents.

And how many of those were deliberate murders using the vehicle as the weapon?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that there were more road-rage homicides last year than there were kids killed by mass murderers.

Why do people always toss the car deaths thing into gun discussions?

To put things into perspective. These shootings get way overdramatized on TV, when in fact they're a statistical anomaly that never happens for all the effect it will actually have on your life. OTOH, losing somebody in car crash is pretty common. I might be a rare case, but I can't think of anyone I've ever known being killed by a mass murderer, but I've lost two friends to car wrecks. Cars are really dangerous, and I'm in a sea of them twice a day.

Yet we are comfortable in our cars because we deem the risk acceptable. The psycho killer risk is astronomically lower. If there were ten known mass murderers among us that we knew would strike tomorrow....that's ten people out of over three hundred million. If they all wore lighted signs saying they were the guys, you couldn't find one if you went out looking.

Why is it so farking difficult to discuss ways of not having mass murders?

It isn't! It's the TV fear phenomenon that amazes me, the sensationalism of this thing that's getting to people's heads. All this "gun ban" talk is going to have one sure consequence - a lot of guns are going to get sold tomorrow! Because people have the day off and fear that Obama is about to change the rules. All this ban talk is having the effect of making the problem worse.

What we should do is stop fearing the lone wolf psycho. He cannot be stopped or detected and will always be with us. And if he can't get a gun he'll build a bomb, sabotage something, set a fire, use poison, whatever else.

But he's SO RARE you will never meet him. 

Discussing ways of preventing mass murder is a fine idea with me, but a gun ban won't do it. Millions of the things already exist and are out of government control.

How you going to get them all back?

Guns save lives all the time by the deterrent effect of their possible existence alone.
2012-12-14 10:56:59 PM  
1 votes:

vrax: Great, the nearly meaningless research is there. The point is, short of being exposed to Blipverts, it's up to the viewer to hang onto their reality. These are things you are supposed to learn at a very young age. I certainly did. If you've lost that ability, then we, once again, must fall back to looking at the massive failure that is mental heath care in this country and not the creators of fictional content.


The research is hardly meaningless, and the meta-analyses continue to find support for it. If you have peer-reviewed support in light of your perspective, I'm happy to read it. As a contributor to the book "Mass Media Effects Research" I'd love to hear it, but the fact is that the current state of media effects research supports my perspective significantly more than yours.

When certain behaviors are treated as normal and without consequence (like most instances of violence in the media), there is a strong likelihood of your worldview and the appropriate behaviors associated with changing. Exposure to violent behaviors and messages without consequence increases the likelihood of people finding those behaviors acceptable, reasonable, or normal. It is less a function of "choice" and more a function of what is treated as normal.

I agree that there has been a massive failure of mental health support in the United States. And I'm speaking as someone who is not inherently opposed to violence in the media, and as a producer of media content, I think it's important that the creators of mediated violence consider the real world normalization that can occur. The fact is that when violence is treated in a vacuum (ie. devoid of negative or authentically real consequences), there is a strong propensity for violence to seem acceptable in even otherwise "normal" human beings.
2012-12-14 10:49:31 PM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: studebaker hoch: In other news, approximately 90 people will have died on our roadways today in motor vehicle accidents.

nobody cares.. it doesn't make the news. We're a society of hypocrites.


A society that prefers to attack strawmen instead of problems. But please, make cars and drivers safer. I'll thank you for it, earnestly.

But today we're talking about 20 kids and 6 six school workers who were shot dead. By a gun. Not a car. Not a knife. A gun.
2012-12-14 10:49:01 PM  
1 votes:

JRoo: soupafi: did mike huckabee really say that the shooting happened because god wasn't in schools?

God doesn't seem to have a problem with killing people.

He seems to do it quite a bit.

To everyone really.


NightOwl2255: Mike Huckabee, on Fox News, said " We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we've systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we've made it a palce where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability?"

Stay classy Fox News.


Wadded Beef: tetsoushima: Has anybody mentioned that Mike Huckabee is an ass? Also, I can't handle this so I'm going to go talk to 6 philosophers and pass out.

Huckabee can suck on all of the disciples' dicks. Actual quote from him: "the crime was no surprise because we have 'systematically removed God' from public schools." Hey FAT ASS, if we mortals possessed the ability to 'remove God' from anywhere then maybe that's telling you there IS NO GOD. Now STFU and go play Cat Scratch Fever with The Nuge again.


Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ ― to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That′s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.

If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose.

Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land ― of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God's Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations. True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God's rule.


― Dr. George Grant, The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Blueprints for Political Action, Dominion Press, pp. 50−51
www.entrewave.com

You can read it for yourself, for free, here (note that the page numbers of the online version do count the lengthy introductory section which are not counted in the page numbering of the printed version, so this quote is found on pages 81−82 of the online version).

Of course, it's not like this guy has anything to do with Mike Huckabee or anything.
Oh, wait... ecx.images-amazon.com
2012-12-14 10:43:02 PM  
1 votes:

whatshisname: jpbreon: Pencils are not responsible for misspelled words, forks are not responsible for diabetes in a fat person, and baseballs are not responsible for a broken window.

When was the last time pencils were used to quickly end the lives of 26 people?


Never. People use the most accessible tool to commit their crimes, so in the absence of a gun, they'll stab to death with a sharp object and suicide by police. Or they'll bash the head in with a blunt object or rock. Your implication is that banning guns will make guns go away (false) and that these crimes are committed because of the existence of guns (false).

Meanwhile, the real problems, which is nearly nonexistent help for mentally troubled people, the glorification of violence as a means of problem solving, and family/social deterioration, go without a peep. It's easier to simply blame an object and make noise about prohibiting it - which never works, disarms law-abiding people, and creates a profitable and alluring trade for criminals - while the much more difficult problems require more than passing a law and pushing the issue to hirelings.
2012-12-14 10:42:43 PM  
1 votes:

drfenric: vrax: Then maybe we need to get Mr. Rogers back to talk to everyone about "The Land Of Make-Believe" again. In any case, it's not the movies, games, or other media that's at fault. It's all the psycho dumbasses out there, the people who talk about con-trails and birth certifiets.

Q: Can you spot the logical fallacy here?

A: False dichotomy.

When certain behaviors are treated as normal, again and again and again, without real, long-lasting consequences, and people are exposed to those behaviors again and again and again, we see the results of this consumption of media messages in all sorts of forms, including (but not limited to) aggressive behavior.

It's not linear, it's not clear, and it's not absolute, but there is a preponderance of evidence to support it. You don't have to like it, but the research is there.


Great, the nearly meaningless research is there. The point is, short of being exposed to Blipverts, it's up to the viewer to hang onto their reality. These are things you are supposed to learn at a very young age. I certainly did. If you've lost that ability, then we, once again, must fall back to looking at the massive failure that is mental heath care in this country and not the creators of fictional content.
2012-12-14 10:39:57 PM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: studebaker hoch: In other news, approximately 90 people will have died on our roadways today in motor vehicle accidents.

nobody cares.. it doesn't make the news. We're a society of hypocrites.


Are those dead because they were deliberately killed by other drivers? Have mass murders involving cars happened as often as with guns? How are they even remotely similar?
2012-12-14 10:38:49 PM  
1 votes:

jpbreon: : Why do people go on murderous rampages in schools?


That is the question. I think if we could answer that, we could answer a great many things.
2012-12-14 10:38:09 PM  
1 votes:
i1182.photobucket.com
2012-12-14 10:23:26 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Would you consider the UK to be a totalitarian state?


In progress. The surveillance, laws about 'offensive' speech, very harsh approach to self defense of any kind. I'd say they're closer then we are. We're taking a different road to get there, but we'll meet up at some point.
2012-12-14 10:22:37 PM  
1 votes:

whatshisname: iq_in_binary: If you don't know enough about the subject to even know the difference between a Garand and an M1A, you have no business writing legislation about guns. None.

Yeah, it's an entirely technical discussion. Has nothing to do with anything but the physical characteristics of military-grade hardware.


Military grade hardware is not available to the average citizen in the US. What few citizens do have military hardware are either active military or have been through a rather extensive tax stamp process that includes forfeiture of their 4th amendment rights for inspection at any time. That pool of firearms has the distinction of never having been used in crimes since their inclusion to the NFA. Not one, not a single one. Zip, Zilch, Zero, Nada.
2012-12-14 10:22:12 PM  
1 votes:

Giltric: Keizer_Ghidorah: Anyways, how about answering the question. Is there anything we can do about this situation?

Stage 1 would be mandatory mental evaluations for every citizen multiple times throughout their lives.

We can use it to keep the wrong people from buying guns, to keep the wrong people from driving, to keep the wrong people from having children and then abusing them.....

Stage 2 would be quarantine.....no more medication bullscat, people can go off their meds and snap.... plus you can't force people to take medication anyway, so the best way to deal with the crazuies would be to isolate them and keep them seperate from the rest of society.

Stage 3 would be eugenics......

We should be looking to put an end to all violence and not just some violence depending on the implement used............doing one helps, doing the other is just an emotional reaction to inanimate objects while absolving the perpetrator of violence from his responsibility in the act.


Eugenics wouldn't work. We barely understand genetics even now. Even the purest parents can create a child with a deformity, a disorder, or an imbalance. The only way to solve it would be extermination of the human species.

Since something that retarded is out of the question, how about some intelligent and legitimate ideas?

/and yes, I agree that we shouldn't blame the method or the tool, but the instigator
2012-12-14 10:21:35 PM  
1 votes:

dennysgod: Here's a depressing thought:

It's almost Christmas, most of these parents have their Christmas shopping done so there's going to be a shait load of unopened presents under the tree this year. Oh and maybe worse, there's probably some that have packages in transit so when they arrive it'll be yet another reminder that their kids are gone.


I'm guessing they'll come together to find a cause to donate them too. Doesn't help much though; it is a really depressing thought right before the holidays.
2012-12-14 10:20:34 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Hmmm.... how are you going to enforce that? Wouldn't the measures necessary to enforce it quickly escalate to totalitarian control


Would you consider the UK to be a totalitarian state?
2012-12-14 10:19:42 PM  
1 votes:

Demonrats:
Part of today's economic issues stem from the lack of a moral compass.


Oh, and if you really think about it, a majority of our society's behavior boils down simply to the prisoner's dilemma. Instead of choosing the trusting path, we've as a society decided to say fark that other guy, give me a deal.
2012-12-14 10:18:03 PM  
1 votes:

studebaker hoch: In other news, approximately 90 people will have died on our roadways today in motor vehicle accidents.


And how many of those were deliberate murders using the vehicle as the weapon? Why do people always toss the car deaths thing into gun discussions?

Why is it so farking difficult to discuss ways of not having mass murders?
2012-12-14 10:16:35 PM  
1 votes:

Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: iq_in_binary: Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: iq_in_binary: chuckufarlie: Kazrath: thisispete: GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?

If there isn't to be a conversation about gun control now, when is it going to happen? What is the window on that? Because this kind of thing happens all too frequently.

Why? Gun control is not the issue. Gun control is a bandaid. Way not to talk about the real issue which is mental illness, poverty and brainwashing.

because a crazy guy sitting at home in his chair is just a crazy guy. A crazy guy with an arsenal is a mass murderer.

See the difference?

I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.

It's an issue that needs to be solved, but their mental health is what needs to be addressed, not their access to firearms. Because frankly, I'd rather hear about some guy shooting up a place and maybe killing a few people than blowing up the damned building and killing ALOT of people.

If guns and TNT labs are so interchangeable, then let's repeal the 2nd amendment. We can build a TNT lab easily and quickly if we need to fight tyranny.

"If Gay Marriage and Civil Unions are so interchangeable, let's scrap the whole pursuit for marriage equality. Civil unions are plenty equal enough."

Try to remember we're talking about a subject in which a LOT of people are talking about turning 70 MILLION of us into criminals for no other reason than exercising a right we thought we had enumerated for us in the Bill of Rights. Every now and then apply a different filter to the argument you're ...


You know one of the reasons I left the Republican party was because I thought liberals and Democrats would be accepting of a guy who wanted things like Universal Healthcare and Marriage Equality but still liked his guns. Way to be accepting and progressive. And you wonder why the gun control debate never goes anywhere, it's because of sniveling little pencil necks like you who regard anyone who doesn't share their viewpoint %100 as, well, whatever you regard me as.
2012-12-14 10:13:29 PM  
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: DC has very strict gun laws. People get shot here all the freaking time. I've been robbed at gunpoint once and come across a murder scene in the past year. Clients of mine have friends and relatives murdered all the time. Well, about 2 a week. Armed robberies and assaults with a weapon are higher than last year, and 2,949 aggravated assaults (those include non-fatal shootings. DCPD doesn't track that statistic).

I dunno what the answer is, but the strict as hell DC laws haven't come close to keeping guns out of the hands of people who wish to do harm with them.


Because D.C. is a small area surrounded by huge areas where guns are legal. Outlaw guns in the whole country and you have a different outcome.
2012-12-14 10:11:42 PM  
1 votes:

mudpants: At this point in time information is coming in fast and we understand that you may want to link to a Facebook page or other information about the shooter. Please try to refrain from doing so. It is personal information, and it may link to innocent people unrelated to this tragedy. Thank you for your consideration.


Enjoy your vacation!
2012-12-14 10:07:20 PM  
1 votes:

mudpants: news flash !!!

At this point in time information is coming in fast and we understand that you may want to link to a Facebook page or other information about the shooter. Please try to refrain from doing so. It is personal information, and it may link to innocent people unrelated to this tragedy. Thank you for your consideration.



fark off, asshole
2012-12-14 10:06:27 PM  
1 votes:

Demonrats: soupafi: did mike huckabee really say that the shooting happened because god wasn't in schools?

I think that the point that he is trying to get is that in today's athiestic society there is no moral compass. Would you rather trust a religious person (not one who feels that if you are not part of his specific religion that you will go to hell so he should send you there any how) with a gun who thinks that if he kills people there will be an Earthly and an afterlife consequence or would you rather trust the most hedonistic person who thinks that there is no consequence to his actions if he uses a gun improperly and then turns it on himself which seems to frequently happen?

Part of today's economic issues stem from the lack of a moral compass. If I have the "F" "U" mentality and will do anything to prop my bottom line and stomp on anyone in my path then we get slave wages and one super rich guy. Would a moral person, such as Apple's Tim Cook who made $378 Million last year, lead a company to pay people so little that they are willing to commit suicide for higher wages? His single salary could double the yearly wage of every Foxconn worker making Apple products. He makes as much as 100,000 of his assemblers combined. Stuff like this makes me wonder how some people sleep at night.

/I know... on a large pile of money with many beautiful naked ladies


If God cared, he would have done something long ago. Hell, he wouldn't have left the tree sitting smack in the middle of the garden and done a better job of keeping Lucifer out. He'd also stop randomly slaughtering people across the world with disasters, diseases, starvation, and defects.

Humans are far more moral, compassionate, and loving than God ever was.
2012-12-14 10:02:24 PM  
1 votes:

Demonrats: Would you rather trust a religious person (not one who feels that if you are not part of his specific religion that you will go to hell so he should send you there any how) with a gun who thinks that if he kills people there will be an Earthly and an afterlife consequence or would you rather trust the most hedonistic person who thinks that there is no consequence to his actions if he uses a gun improperly and then turns it on himself which seems to frequently happen?


Yeah, uh, you might want to brush up on your Old Testament there. Specifically all the times God smiled upon his followers smiting unworthy nations and religions.
2012-12-14 10:01:12 PM  
1 votes:

Demonrats: I think that the point that he is trying to get is that in today's athiestic society there is no moral compass.


If you need an invisible man in the sky to force you to do right, then you truly have no moral compass. Morality comes from evolution and a decent upbringing, not some mythological being.
2012-12-14 09:55:47 PM  
1 votes:
wow this thread is a boatload full of pissed off crazy. How did a bunch of dead kids turn into bat-shipity do da let's fire ALL THE GUNS!!
2012-12-14 09:54:19 PM  
1 votes:
What if there were a law passed that forced everyone 21 and over to learn how to carry and use a firearm,and wear it publicly.
2012-12-14 09:46:43 PM  
1 votes:
Take care all.
This is a very tragic day.

There are some unnervingly cold hearts that post here.
2012-12-14 09:40:28 PM  
1 votes:

drfenric: captainmaxthedestroyer: Violence should be glorified in cinema, because Hollywood is fake. Theater, as all arts do, allows someone to live vicariously through someone else. Film has to ability to allow someone pent up to watch Batman kick ass for 3 hours and come out of the theater and say to themselves, "whew, what a ride. now I feel better."

Seriously, you're going to endorse a catharsis theory of media effects? In the 21st century? There is little to no support of this theory in modern research and (in fact) quite a bit to suggest that instead what is happening is an enculturation and normalization of these behaviors as seeming realistic, authentic, and reasonable.


Then maybe we need to get Mr. Rogers back to talk to everyone about "The Land Of Make-Believe" again. In any case, it's not the movies, games, or other media that's at fault. It's all the psycho dumbasses out there, the people who talk about con-trails and birth certifiets.
2012-12-14 09:39:04 PM  
1 votes:
Keizer_Ghidorah
Gdalescrboz: And the kid will get weeks of his name and life story plastered all over the world, only inspiring someone else to try to repeat. Don't even mention this guys name, dont show a picture, delete him from history.

Ignoring the problem ALWAYS makes it disappear!


No, you farking puts. Turning this asshole into a pinup boy for other dipshiats who feel like the world is out to get them only inspires similar events. Rather than turning the events in to a spectacle, a type of sick "art" that someone created, it should be reported and then dropped. Dont talk about the shooter at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded#!
2012-12-14 09:38:23 PM  
1 votes:
Are we living in a land,
where sex, and horror,
Are the new gods?

-- some 80s band

/get off my lawn
2012-12-14 09:33:47 PM  
1 votes:

Indubitably: diaphoresis: Keizer_Ghidorah: Okay, so.

We can't touch guns or anything to do with guns, because half the country sees that as Satanic totalitarian New World Order liberal demonic socialism communism, and if guns are regulated then everyone will mass murder with bats and knives and grenades and fertilizer bombs.

We can't try better mental health care because states don't want to spend money on anything worthwhile and a good percent of the population seems to think that it's better to execute or sterilize the mentally imbalanced than help them.

We can't try adjusting our culture and attitudes because media has no effect on anybody, half the country is already screaming about how society is falling apart because it's no longer the 1950's, and Americans will think that we'll be seen as weak and pitiful and small if we're not being the most gung-ho violence-centric country on Earth.

So... how should we attempt to fix the matter of criminals and the mentally-unbalanced harming and killing people?

[flickeringscreen.files.wordpress.com image 500x287]
'NUFF SAID

Please reference the comic books.


Unfortunately, I don't know how many people on Fark actually read Dredd comix... more people are probably familiar with Stallone version.
2012-12-14 09:33:42 PM  
1 votes:

shower_in_my_socks: Ardilla: Let's start with a framework:

1) Make it absolutely illegal to buy, sell, own, or use a gun without earning a license and enact SEVERE criminal penalties for violations of this/these law/s.
2) Make it mandatory to pass a mental health screening as a condition of earning a license.
3) Gun licenses must be renewed at least as often as drivers' licenses are renewed, with repeat mental health screening at each renewal.
4) SEVERE criminal penalties for anyone who sells or gives a gun to an unlicensed person.
5) Require all guns to be registered as we do cars, with a mandatory ballistic ID database program.

You'll note that I am not advocating the absolute prohibition of guns. But these steps would go a long way toward limiting the number of mentally unstable people with guns.


And if we instituted those kinds of restrictions, the NRA's coveted "responsible, law abiding gun owners" could still get their guns. They would just have to jump through a few more hoops to get them in order to ENSURE that they would be "responsible, law abiding gun owners." Gun rights activists should be IN FAVOR of stricter checks before purchasing firearms because it lessens the risk that bad people can get their hands on guns -- those are the people that make all gun owners look bad.


Not only that, but they laughed at the Brady Bill that pretty much tried to do just that...and then cheered when it was ruled unconstitutional.
2012-12-14 09:30:45 PM  
1 votes:

Giltric: Keizer_Ghidorah: because half the country sees that as Satanic totalitarian New World Order liberal demonic socialism communism,

Would you be suprised if noone wanted to engage you in a serious conversation about gun control?


Look through this thread, other gun threads, Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, FreeRepublic, and FOX to see the reactions to any kind of action regarding guns. How many times in one day alone do we see "DEY TAKIN' ER GUNZ!!" from at least fifteen different places?

I'm sorry if pointing this out makes you upset, but I'm not exaggerating anything I said.
2012-12-14 09:29:47 PM  
1 votes:

Eatin' Queer Fetuses for Jesus: iq_in_binary: chuckufarlie: Kazrath: thisispete: GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?

If there isn't to be a conversation about gun control now, when is it going to happen? What is the window on that? Because this kind of thing happens all too frequently.

Why? Gun control is not the issue. Gun control is a bandaid. Way not to talk about the real issue which is mental illness, poverty and brainwashing.

because a crazy guy sitting at home in his chair is just a crazy guy. A crazy guy with an arsenal is a mass murderer.

See the difference?

I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.

It's an issue that needs to be solved, but their mental health is what needs to be addressed, not their access to firearms. Because frankly, I'd rather hear about some guy shooting up a place and maybe killing a few people than blowing up the damned building and killing ALOT of people.

If guns and TNT labs are so interchangeable, then let's repeal the 2nd amendment. We can build a TNT lab easily and quickly if we need to fight tyranny.


"If Gay Marriage and Civil Unions are so interchangeable, let's scrap the whole pursuit for marriage equality. Civil unions are plenty equal enough."

Try to remember we're talking about a subject in which a LOT of people are talking about turning 70 MILLION of us into criminals for no other reason than exercising a right we thought we had enumerated for us in the Bill of Rights. Every now and then apply a different filter to the argument you're making to see if you'd hold the same view. If you can't, you might want to revise your argument.
2012-12-14 09:26:47 PM  
1 votes:

mzkitty901: And, I'm with you -- I'm not sending my kid to school with armed guards, and I am NOT going to live like that. And, I'm not going to bring her up to be afraid, either. And, my kindergartener is also safe and sound and believes me when I tell her monsters aren't real...and I hope with every fiber of my being she never, ever, ever finds out what a liar I am.

Dammit. You made me cry. Again.


Despite everything that has happened today, I still understand that--statistically--the most dangerous part of my kids' school day is the drive to and from the school. Such facts are no comfort to the parents of Newtown, but they help keep me grounded and prevent me from engaging in any kind of knee-jerk overreaction while the more irrational parts of my brain are in the throes of a full-scale freakout.

One of the first things I learned when I became a parent is how deep and real and visceral the fear of losing a child is. And while it gets pushed to the back of the mind, it's always there. Someone once said that courage is not the absence of fear, it is the acknowledgement that some things are more important than fear. So every day I push my kids out into the world knowing full well that it is not always as benign as it seems. Because to do otherwise would be to teach them that life is ruled by fear--and that's not how I want them to live.
2012-12-14 09:26:04 PM  
1 votes:

evaned:
pedrop357: Is it common for kindergartners to snoop through their teachers desk drawers or force the locks on them?
I'm not a teacher, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the answer to the first half of that is "yes".


Absolutely. They have no boundaries. They'll check every drawer if you don't stop them.
2012-12-14 09:22:14 PM  
1 votes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

I'll just leave this here...
2012-12-14 09:21:48 PM  
1 votes:

Giltric: iq_in_binary: jfarkinB: iq_in_binary: I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.

You know the difference between "a TNT lab" and guns? If you've got a gun and ammo, you can kill a bunch of people without knowing very much else at all. If you've got the ingredients you listed, you can poison and/or torch yourself, and no longer be a problem for the rest of us. (You can't make TNT with such common ingredients, but this isn't the place for detailed corrections.)

Toluene is a common cleaner. You can distill nitric and sulfuric acid from common wood treatments. The only dangerous part of a TNT cook is after the second nitration and easily handled with common sense safety precautions. Keep in mind that there are dipshiat monosynaptic yokels out there already cooking meth, and that is a FAR more complicated process.

Why bother with all that chemistry, cooking, denurturing and renitrating etc......



Get a gallon of bleach and a gallon of ammonia..... dig some trenches in the front yard and reenact WWI.


Not my interest, personally. I make high-end hunting rifles and heirloom pistols for retiring sheriffs, while I enjoy my AR-15 it's more for having fun at the range than going all Turner Diaries.

I'm personally amiable to effective gun control, but the problem is that everyone either has no clue what they're talking about and would enact either toothless or ineffective legislation or would try and ban them all completely, doing even more damage and farking over the law abiding. I think if people who actually worked with guns were brought in to actually inform the lawmakers during legislation it would do a lot of good, but instead we have the mouthbreathers over at the NRA taking the absolutism route and the gun control proponents going to the opposite extreme in response.
2012-12-14 09:21:04 PM  
1 votes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

I'll leave this here for you to look at.
2012-12-14 09:19:56 PM  
1 votes:
I'm not trying to excuse anyone, I'm trying to point out that this issue is like an ogre, it's got layers. Using the 'ban all guns' argument is about the same as washing the outside of an onion, it makes it look clean and pretty, but the onion isn't really any closer to getting in that salad.

huh?
2012-12-14 09:19:44 PM  
1 votes:

yookaloco: In other news, the word "Kindergartner" is trending like a motherfarker.

BTW, I know people say they were sick to their stomach when they heard. What I would like is stories of anyone who actually did vomit. Because if Daniel Tosh taught me anything, it's that puke lightens the mood.


I had a really bad migraine headache when I heard the news and did puke. I think it was the migraine, though. Does that help?
2012-12-14 09:19:32 PM  
1 votes:
Okay, so.

We can't touch guns or anything to do with guns, because half the country sees that as Satanic totalitarian New World Order liberal demonic socialism communism, and if guns are regulated then everyone will mass murder with bats and knives and grenades and fertilizer bombs.

We can't try better mental health care because states don't want to spend money on anything worthwhile and a good percent of the population seems to think that it's better to execute or sterilize the mentally imbalanced than help them.

We can't try adjusting our culture and attitudes because media has no effect on anybody, half the country is already screaming about how society is falling apart because it's no longer the 1950's, and Americans will think that we'll be seen as weak and pitiful and small if we're not being the most gung-ho violence-centric country on Earth.

So... how should we attempt to fix the matter of criminals and the mentally-unbalanced harming and killing people?
2012-12-14 09:19:14 PM  
1 votes:
Every actor that gets rich by making unrealistic movies that show that problems can be overcome with guns (I'm looking at you, Arnie) is part of the problem.
Every person that freaked out over Janet Jackson's nipple instead of being freaked out by what they let their children watch on TV is part of the problem.
Every movie producer that makes extremely violent movies that are subtly marketed to minors (I'm looking at you, Michael Bay) is part of the problem.
Every parent that takes their child to a R-rated, violent movie because "they really want to see it" is part of the problem.
2012-12-14 09:17:10 PM  
1 votes:
JungleBoogie: Look, I understand the desire to be able to carry. I live near a high crime area. I have firearms myself. It's irritated me for a long time that Maryland is not a shall-issue state. I like the precision of firearms. Their weight. I like to shoot. I don't like cleaning them though. But I clean them. With my bore brush (bore snakes are for the weak), the Remington Bright Bore, then finishing up with a coating of Hoppe's No. 9 and putting them back in their cases.

But, nothing was done after Virginia Tech. Nothing was done after Colorado. Slaughtering 20 kindergarteners is going to hit home with a lot of people and force them out of the echo chamber, and make them think.

I would be happy to put up with more hassle in obtaining firearms if it means fewer incidents like these.  Fewer firearms in circulation will mean fewer firearms in the hands of criminals. It's just that simple.

davidphogan: What does that do regarding the actual events today? The shooter used stolen guns that were legally registered. It was illegal due to his she to even possess them. Yet, he did, and now here we are.



If his mother didn't have those guns, the offender wouldn't have had them. Or if she had to keep them locked down in a safe, the offender wouldn't have had them. Or if she'd received some training on mental health issues in the new training required to obtain firearms, she might have stored them differently, or not had them at all. If it were much more expensive to obtain firearms or ammunition, perhaps she wouldn't have kept ammunition in the house. Or kept as much in the house, if every piece of ammo were precious. If she only had five bullets in the house and loose guns, the offender wouldn't have only been able to kill five people max.

I have a shotgun. 12 gauge slugs can be quite expensive, 15-20 bucks for a box of 5 fancy sabots. As a result, I don't keep that many in the house.

A disaster is the result of a chain of events. I'm interested in breaking that chain. 

We're not going to completely prevent gun murder. Perfection is impossible. But we can mitigate. And that is the goal.
2012-12-14 09:15:10 PM  
1 votes:

tetsoushima: I don't know about you guys, but drinking myself to the point of passing out seems like the only answer to things like this.


Way ahead of ya, pal.


/Off to replenish three fingers of Crown Royal on the rocks
//Toasting to the good health and happiness of you and yours
2012-12-14 09:14:29 PM  
1 votes:

evaned: Kit Fister: I'm open to the possibility, but using your analogy, if the design flaw is that the toilets flush with too much pressure, then does that preclude blaming the pilot that deliberately chose to crash the plane?

I have a suspicion you'll be hard pressed to find someone saying we shouldn't blame the shooter; what gets me annoyed is comments like this, re. the knife attack in China:

Mikey1969: The point is the same one other people are trying to make, it's not guns, it's people. This isn't the first time this has happened there, not even the second, and usually people die. The problem lies in someone who can justify killing a bunch of people that they don't know and have no connection to, no matter how they do it.

Stuff like this seems to me like it's saying "some people are evil so there's no point in gun control because they'll still attack" while ignoring the blatantly obvious fact that guns make it way easier to kill people.

Kit Fister: As these arguments that come up every time these tragedies happen show, BOTH sides have facts that, when amalgamated and studied as part of a larger picture, show that something IS wrong but it's NOT something that either side directly acknowledges or believes is important.

Or that the different sides like to highlight different aspects of. For instance, is it guns? Media? Access to mental health and social stigmatization of mental problems? Culture? In reality it seems like it's probably some combination of them, but in what mix? And what should we do about it? How do you change culture? Taking an anti-gun stance for a second, maybe since we can't be sure of what the root cause is or what to do about it, maybe working on a symptom and making it harder to get guns will at least help?

Kit Fister: But, instead we'll plod along, accepting that it's okay to make games that involve mass murder, rape, gore, blood, and so on because of free speech, continue to make movies that glorify violence and so on, and continue to focus on ourselves and not on properly parenting our children, and instead blame the guns and ban them, just like we blame high-fat fast food and junk food for our obesity epidemic instead of looking closely at who the fark is stuffing their face.

And I actually think the obesity thing is an interesting discussion too, and in some ways parallel the gun control debate as you seem to suggest there. (And I suspect we are somewhat on different sides of that as well.) For instance, the obesity rate in the US has gone up dramatically over the last couple decades. (Link: scroll to the map at the bottom.) You can shout about how it's personal choice and why should the government get involved and stuff like that until your throat is hoarse, but I'll still think that's only half the story; it's not like our country's genetics have suddenly and abruptly went off of a cliff, something at a societal level has happened that has caused the problem. And because of that, I think focusing on individuals ("exercise more!" "eat less!") is doomed to fail, and to solve the problem it's necessary to look at what society-wide shifts have occurred -- and that it's very possible that fixing those shifts will require some sort of government intervention. Maybe not NYC "you can't offer this soda", but maybe limiting the quantity or types of products that sugar and HFCS is added to. Or maybe NYC has the right idea.


Unfortunately a lot of illiterate people on Fark tonight... I'll explain this one more time.

Most (I won't say 'all' because some people really are nuts) people are trying to point out not that guns don't kill people, we're trying to show that people are still getting attacked in large numbers even where guns are 100% illegal. Until people are willing to admit that the problem goes deeper than guns, the problem will still exist.

Sure, you'll go to sleep tonight convinced that you made a difference, but it won't change anything. This problem needs to be looked at from more than one direction, that's all there is to it.

I'm not trying to excuse anyone, I'm trying to point out that this issue is like an ogre, it's got layers. Using the 'ban all guns' argument is about the same as washing the outside of an onion, it makes it look clean and pretty, but the onion isn't really any closer to getting in that salad.
2012-12-14 09:14:15 PM  
1 votes:
Was away from the TV and the Internet most of the day. WHAT IN THE FICK HAPPENED?! I turn my back for like eight hours and...whoosh.
2012-12-14 09:05:33 PM  
1 votes:

Giltric: simkatu: Ryan and Adam's mother was shot at her home by Adam who then went to the school where her mom worked on most days and went to her kindergarten class and murdered her students

WTF is the deal with that bullshiat.

Did he feel mom loved her students more than him?


According to a retired FBI BAU guy on NBC earlier, pretty much. Killing what she loved was in his farked up head part of punishing her.
2012-12-14 09:05:17 PM  
1 votes:

JungleBoogie: Look, I understand the desire to be able to carry. I live near a high crime area. I have firearms myself. It's irritated me for a long time that Maryland is not a shall-issue state. I like the precision of firearms. Their weight. I like to shoot. I don't like cleaning them though. But I clean them. With my bore brush (bore snakes are for the weak), the Remington Bright Bore, then finishing up with a coating of Hoppe's No. 9 and putting them back in their cases.

But, nothing was done after Virginia Tech. Nothing was done after Colorado. Slaughtering 20 kindergarteners is going to hit home with a lot of people and force them out of the echo chamber, and make them think.

I would be happy to put up with more hassle in obtaining firearms if it means fewer incidents like these.  Fewer firearms in circulation will mean fewer firearms in the hands of criminals. It's just that simple.


What does that do regarding the actual events today? The shooter used stolen guns that were legally registered. It was illegal due to his she to even possess them. Yet, he did, and now here we are.
2012-12-14 09:04:04 PM  
1 votes:
And yes - to those talking about dealing with mental health issues, and having easy and ubiquitous access to mental health treatment - that is in fact an important piece of this puzzle. Along with reducing the number of firearms in circulations.

We've had a good discussion here. The summary I will advocate for is:

1) Controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms.
2) Making access to mental health care easy, confidential and uibiquitous. 
3) Limiting the ability of moneyed special interests to control government. Going from "Government of the highest bidder, by the highest bidder, for the highest bidder" back to "Government of the people, by the people, for the people."

But what I will not accept, and I hope the rest of the country doesn't accept, is doing nothing. Again.
2012-12-14 08:58:41 PM  
1 votes:
The Facebook page that was widely spread around earlier is indeed that of Ryan Lanza, 24 year old brother to the killer Adam Lanza and Hoboken, NJ resident. He was not the killer, but apparently his ID was in the possession of Adam Lanza when the police arrived and found his body at the school. Ryan and Adam's mother was shot at her home by Adam who then went to the school where her mom worked on most days and went to her kindergarten class and murdered her students. Adam and Ryan's father Peter Lanza of Stamford, CT is a VP at GE that handles tax matters. He was not killed, despite earlier reports to the contrary.
2012-12-14 08:56:13 PM  
1 votes:

evaned: Gyrfalcon: I'll post a more truncated version of this again.

It's not the guns. It's not the crazies. It's not the laws, or lack of them. It's our collective mind-set.

It's the mind-set that refuses to proactively acknowledge that people have access to guns and this is not going to change; but what CAN be changed--easily and without too much effort--is disallowing them access to the interiors of schools. What can be changed is our realization that the price of living in free society is NOT walking around in constant paranoia, but simply acknowledging that some areas need an extra layer of protection, locating where that layer can be put without inconveniencing us too severely, and then putting it there as seamlessly as possible.

Today's tragedy could have been avoided with one simple statement: "No, Mr. Nutcase, you can't go back to your mom's classroom until the security guard can escort you," and one armed escort. Neither was in place, so 20 kids are dead. The former would have cost nothing, the second, the price of one person's paycheck. However, the change in THINKING would have needed to be profound--admitting that there are crazy people out there who look JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Who could even be someone's son or daughter. Who can kill kids. And we need to stop them. I know that's a tough thing to think about. But it needs doing.

I think there are so many problems with this post it would take a while to list it wrong. For example, the price of one person's paycheck. Unless you're willing to also say "all it would have taken was for the SWAT team to be ready and waiting", it's not one pay check -- it's one pay check per school, since you don't know where it'll happen.

But the bigger problem is that it probably wouldn't have prevented it. Maybe it would have just meant that Mr. Jackass Shooter would have an additional victim under his belt. Or maybe he would have just had to find another way in. (You gonna replace all the windows with bullet proofglass to ...


No, but you're doing what everyone else tends to do: Figure there's a single solution to this problem and go there. I never suggested mine was the ONLY solution, just that it's the simplest solution, and the one that should be done while we're working on the rest.

The problem is that everyone has his or her pet solution, and seems to think that will solve it to the exclusion of all else. Get rid of guns! Stronger gun laws! Or the new one I already see brewing: Better mental health care! As if any of these will work to the exclusion of all else. No: They all have to work in concert with each other, and none is paramount over another. Better gun laws would help; so would tighter control over schools (and malls, and theaters and wherever else people go to be crazy), and so would getting help to troubled people before they take out their frustrations on the world at large.

You're also conflating a planned, deliberate attack with a random killing. Maybe this guy would have gone back if frustrated in his initial attempt, but it's more likely he wouldn't; or it's possible he would have gone elsewhere for his killing spree. Maybe having someone closer to him would have allowed him to vent; or perhaps someone in closer proximity would have seen the blood spatter on his clothes since he'd already killed at least two other people already. The point being that the WORST thing that could have been done in this case (or any case) was to just wave him past the front desk without so much as a glance.

The further point, and the one I'm really trying to make here, is that at this time, there are NO contingency plans in place and NO changes in mindset for anyone as far as I know. As I mentioned in another post, it's laughably easy for anyone to walk into any school, anywhere at any time. At most, you have to sign in with a secretary. I'm hardly suggesting turning all schools into prisons; but I AM suggesting that we need to acknowledge that there are people in the world who a) have access to weapons and b) might use them. There's no reason to lock schools down 24/7 like jails, arm teachers, and place SWAT teams at the exits; but we can't just leave them open to all comers, either.

The 9/11 terrorists didn't hijack the planes because they had knives; they hijacked the planes because the pilots had been trained to obey the hijackers orders. Today, the shooter didn't kill all those kids because he had an assault rifle, he did it because he was allowed free access to the interior of the school. Today, airplane cockpits are locked. There's no reason schools can't be made similarly impermeable as well.
2012-12-14 08:56:04 PM  
1 votes:
Look, I understand the desire to be able to carry. I live near a high crime area. I have firearms myself. It's irritated me for a long time that Maryland is not a shall-issue state. I like the precision of firearms. Their weight. I like to shoot. I don't like cleaning them though. But I clean them. With my bore brush (bore snakes are for the weak), the Remington Bright Bore, then finishing up with a coating of Hoppe's No. 9 and putting them back in their cases.

But, nothing was done after Virginia Tech. Nothing was done after Colorado. Slaughtering 20 kindergarteners is going to hit home with a lot of people and force them out of the echo chamber, and make them think.

I would be happy to put up with more hassle in obtaining firearms if it means fewer incidents like these.  Fewer firearms in circulation will mean fewer firearms in the hands of criminals. It's just that simple.
2012-12-14 08:53:29 PM  
1 votes:

shower_in_my_socks: Arthur Jumbles: if all the guns simply disappeared they'd find other, more creative ways to kill and I think they might even be more effective


Then it should be very easy for you to give examples of countries with stricter gun laws than the US that still have the same level of mass murders using other weapons. We await your report.


There are countries with much looser gun laws then the US that don't have near our murder rate because America has a violence problem. It is a uniquely American problem, we glorify violence. If our citizens didn't have access to guns they'd find other ways to kill each other because there's no hate like American hate.
2012-12-14 08:52:59 PM  
1 votes:

sxacho: A little over a year ago, I left my employer to go out on my own. This necessitated a hunt for a health insurance policy that we could afford. This was not fun.

My wife had previously been treated for depression so of course the only policy we could get/afford has a big disclaimer on it staying that mental health issues are NOT COVERED.

Not like something like that could pertinent to the conversation, I'm just sayin


Shiat like this is one major reason why people hesitate to seek help for mental health issues.
2012-12-14 08:49:48 PM  
1 votes:
A little over a year ago, I left my employer to go out on my own. This necessitated a hunt for a health insurance policy that we could afford. This was not fun.

My wife had previously been treated for depression so of course the only policy we could get/afford has a big disclaimer on it staying that mental health issues are NOT COVERED.

Not like something like that could pertinent to the conversation, I'm just sayin
2012-12-14 08:45:44 PM  
1 votes:
Just stop.
2012-12-14 08:44:56 PM  
1 votes:

jfarkinB: iq_in_binary: I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.

You know the difference between "a TNT lab" and guns? If you've got a gun and ammo, you can kill a bunch of people without knowing very much else at all. If you've got the ingredients you listed, you can poison and/or torch yourself, and no longer be a problem for the rest of us. (You can't make TNT with such common ingredients, but this isn't the place for detailed corrections.)


Toluene is a common cleaner. You can distill nitric and sulfuric acid from common wood treatments. The only dangerous part of a TNT cook is after the second nitration and easily handled with common sense safety precautions. Keep in mind that there are dipshiat monosynaptic yokels out there already cooking meth, and that is a FAR more complicated process.
2012-12-14 08:44:02 PM  
1 votes:
Can we please have a serious talk about a real health care system now?

I'm willing to pay more in taxes if it means we don't have this health insurance clusterfark, and people with mental health issues get free, easy access to treatment.

I know guns are what's on everyone's mind, and they should certainly be harder to get, but the real problem is that we don't take care of each other. It's a part of our culture that's broken right now, and an absolutely essential part of mending that is to make it easy for people to get and stay healthy. 

Maybe then fewer kids would die.
2012-12-14 08:40:17 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: I'll post a more truncated version of this again.

It's not the guns. It's not the crazies. It's not the laws, or lack of them. It's our collective mind-set.

It's the mind-set that refuses to proactively acknowledge that people have access to guns and this is not going to change; but what CAN be changed--easily and without too much effort--is disallowing them access to the interiors of schools. What can be changed is our realization that the price of living in free society is NOT walking around in constant paranoia, but simply acknowledging that some areas need an extra layer of protection, locating where that layer can be put without inconveniencing us too severely, and then putting it there as seamlessly as possible.

Today's tragedy could have been avoided with one simple statement: "No, Mr. Nutcase, you can't go back to your mom's classroom until the security guard can escort you," and one armed escort. Neither was in place, so 20 kids are dead. The former would have cost nothing, the second, the price of one person's paycheck. However, the change in THINKING would have needed to be profound--admitting that there are crazy people out there who look JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Who could even be someone's son or daughter. Who can kill kids. And we need to stop them. I know that's a tough thing to think about. But it needs doing.


So Adam, who grew up in the town and is known to be the son of a teacher, buzzes in. He says, "Mom's home sick with the stomach thing. Can't leave the bathroom, poor thing. She asked me to grab x, y, and z so she can work on them over the weekend." Security guard Bob, who went to school with Adam's brother and was in Adam's scout troop and church group, says, "Sure, Adam. But I gotta walk you down to get 'em. Rules, you know." Adam says, "No problem, Bob. Hey, how's the new wife? Baby on the way yet?" Bob laughs, and buzzes Adam in. They walk down towards the room, two buddies, until Adam turns and puts one in Bob's head.

Alternate scenario. Little Johnny's dad calls the school and schedules an appointment to talk to Principal Principal because he has some concerns about Little Johnny. His business in the school is legitimate. He is known to the office staff, and smiles at the camera. He buzzes in and is escor... BLAM!

Unless you are suggesting TSA level security theater at the entrance to every school in the country. To which I say, you payin'? Because my little district is holding bake sales for text books.
2012-12-14 08:34:15 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: The solutions we got were pretty much textbook police-state, don't-let-a-tragedy-go-to-waste.


While the arms industry and emotional gun owners might want no change as a result of this incident, the rest of us should certainly look for ways to prevent this from happening in the future. I'm not talking the "Hold hands and sing Kumbayah" stuff the emotional gun owners and arms industry advocates are suggesting, I'm talking effective measures to limit the number of firearms that get into criminals' hands. Limiting their manufacture and sale, among other things.

Those kindergarteners' deaths should not be in vain.
2012-12-14 08:30:09 PM  
1 votes:

captainmaxthedestroyer: vrax: captainmaxthedestroyer: vrax: captainmaxthedestroyer: This is not about the gun control culture.

This is not about the mental illness culture.

This is about the precious little snowflake culture. And how that culture permits their children to throw tantrums as selfish as this one.

Bullshiat! This is absolutely about the pervasiveness of undiagnosed and untreated psychological disorder in this country.

Precious Little Snowflakes.

There are plenty of NFL guys who have been diagnosed with mental illness that end up offing themselves. Same goes for vets with PTSD.

At the very core of their being they at least still understand that rampages like this are unacceptable.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a mental illness debate, because it absolutely needs to be addressed. But ever since columbine, it's been the cool thing to do to go out in a "blaze of glory". And that's because it's not being driven home that under NO circumstances is an action like that acceptable.

No. Those people may have been diagnosed, but not sufficiently treated. This "snowflake" bullshiat is just that, bullshiat.

Ever since Columbine it's been cool to perform massacres.

There were mentally sick people before that event and they never orchestrated events like this. Or like VT. Or like TDKR theater.

This is about a selfish culture that believes these acts are ok. Mentally sick or not.


This culture you refer to doesn't exist except in your head. There are psychologically unstable people who carry out acts like this. That's it. That you even think "cool" enters into it is the highest of absurdities.
2012-12-14 08:28:27 PM  
1 votes:
JungleBoogie: Because DOING NOTHING IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THIS TIME."

way south: Heard this kind of talk a few years back.
Everyone was passionate to do something, anything, to prevent a new tragedy.

This is what we did.

[TSA patting down child]

[Afghanistan bombs on mountains]

/Action based on emotion instead of reason is not going to get the change you're looking for.



Very astute point. I'm all for limiting the manufacture and sale of firearms so there will be less of them that inevitably fall into the hands of criminals. We should take a step back figure out how best to achieve that goal and then execute.

However, your equating reducing the number of firearms in the hands of criminals to invading Iraq is a false equivalence.

The reason we've had all these massacres and gun murders without any reform is because our government is broken. Moneyed interests control it. It is "Government of the highest bidder, by the highest bidder, for the highest bidder," instead of "Government of the people, by the people, for the people." It's the same reason there was all sorts of malfeasance in the financial sector leading to the 2008 Financial Crisis, yet there has been no effective reform of the financial system. It's because our government system is broken. We've voted in quite the "klepto-idiocracy."

Moneyed interests can and have effectively prevented reform in the financial industry and in the arms industry.

It's a shame it took getting a classroom full of five year olds slaughtered at point blank range. But their deaths and the hideous pain of their families shouldn't be in vain.

Like I say, making clucking noises and saying, "Aint that a shame" and going back to business as usual may make money for the arms industry, but it's not an acceptable response to this incident. 

It's time for people to get off their butts, call their Congressmen and Senators, and find some organizations that support the viewpoint of limiting criminals' ability to get guns, and contribute to them (yes, this is not dealing with the broken legalized bribery that the government has, but it is a way to make progress now).
2012-12-14 08:26:27 PM  
1 votes:
You're absolutely right, O'reilly, there is nothing we can do to stop this. Nothing. Lets not discuss getting rid of guns.

The fact that he doesn't have a massive stroke is as much evidence that God doesn't care as the massacre itself.
2012-12-14 08:25:12 PM  
1 votes:

iq_in_binary: I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.


You know the difference between "a TNT lab" and guns? If you've got a gun and ammo, you can kill a bunch of people without knowing very much else at all. If you've got the ingredients you listed, you can poison and/or torch yourself, and no longer be a problem for the rest of us. (You can't make TNT with such common ingredients, but this isn't the place for detailed corrections.)
2012-12-14 08:25:10 PM  
1 votes:
I'll post a more truncated version of this again.

It's not the guns. It's not the crazies. It's not the laws, or lack of them. It's our collective mind-set.

It's the mind-set that refuses to proactively acknowledge that people have access to guns and this is not going to change; but what CAN be changed--easily and without too much effort--is disallowing them access to the interiors of schools. What can be changed is our realization that the price of living in free society is NOT walking around in constant paranoia, but simply acknowledging that some areas need an extra layer of protection, locating where that layer can be put without inconveniencing us too severely, and then putting it there as seamlessly as possible.

Today's tragedy could have been avoided with one simple statement: "No, Mr. Nutcase, you can't go back to your mom's classroom until the security guard can escort you," and one armed escort. Neither was in place, so 20 kids are dead. The former would have cost nothing, the second, the price of one person's paycheck. However, the change in THINKING would have needed to be profound--admitting that there are crazy people out there who look JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Who could even be someone's son or daughter. Who can kill kids. And we need to stop them. I know that's a tough thing to think about. But it needs doing.
2012-12-14 08:24:51 PM  
1 votes:

ordinarysteve: every one of these threads about a massacre makes me hate gun nuts even more. i get that you love your gun and it makes you feel better about being a wuss with a baby dick but do you have to minimize how farked up it is that 20 little kids just got shot? you guys are like tea partiers, in that you refuse to compromise and just yell how persecuted you are.


THIS.

/well said, sir
2012-12-14 08:24:05 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: tartie_pants: arm the teachers??? As a K teacher the only farkin gun I want in my room is a glue gun. It is a useless and beyond dumb idea. First the gun would have to be locked with the bullets not with it, in a hidden place that they kids wouldn't ever be able to get to. So that would be me a whole lot of good in a case like this. My job is not to play dirty harry it is to keep those kids as calm as I can and get them to safety

You sound like someone who doesn't think the issue through very well. Have you considered that some teachers may want to carry it on their person or have in a purse/bag in a locked drawer?

You would not be playing Dirty Harry, you would be defending yourself and your students from a possible lunatic.


You sound like someone who has never taught 5 and 6 year olds, because in my purse in a locked drawer requires me to stop focusing on calming my class, unlocking the drawer, and getting it out. Not to mention that K teachers are moving away from having traditional desks and have only the kidney shaped guided reading table for teaching small groups. On my person,again not a Kindergarten teacher are you? Want to know what is generally on my person? I wear an apron that has dry erase markers, extra pencils, crayons, cubes, band aids, tissues, various pieces of centers that I have picked up off the floor. I also have my letter cards, question cards for circle time. When teaching K you usually wear jeans or other casual pants that tempera can get all over, a sweater / nice shirt and sneakers as you are on your feet non stop and you may have to chase a kid a moments notice. So where exactly would you like me to put that gun on my person? Oh wait! Let me put it in my alpha sound sort pocket chart in the G pouch.
2012-12-14 08:23:58 PM  
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: JRoo: Except that, you know, we're actually trying to a DO something about starvation and preventable disease.

There's nothing being done to prevent gun violence?


Maybe somewhere other than America.
2012-12-14 08:23:54 PM  
1 votes:

Saturn5: I pray for the victims and their families.

For the gun argument, I'll only say this.
Laws don't prevent crime. They punish the criminal after the fact.
We have vehicle registration, insurance requirements, testing and operator licensing and banning drunk driving has been ineffective in stopping drunk driving.
The war on drugs has not stopped drug use.
Prohibition did not stop alcohol use.
Banning guns on school property didn't stop this tragedy.

You cannot prevent a crazed individual from doing something evil. What you can do is be prepared to stop them when they try. 1 armed person could have stopped this tragedy and maybe we'd be grieving over the loss of 1 or 2 instead of 32. If they want to ban guns from schools, they remove a person's ability to protect themselves against such evil. In that case they should be required to accept responsibility for providing security. All schools, or other places that ban weapons, should be required to have armed security/police on site. The police do an admirable job but they can't be everywhere at once. We've seen how many can fall to evil's hand before the police can respond.


There's just not enough people interested in carrying weapons around with them all the time for this to be a viable solution. Your vigilante dream is only a dream.
2012-12-14 08:13:57 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: BraveNewCheneyWorld: For the most part, yes. Sane people do not do this, and every mass killer in the past few years was clearly mentally ill to even passing acquaintances. There of course will be a few otherwise sane people who kill a single person, but like I said earlier, if you're unwilling to ban pools to prevent far more child drownings than there are shootings, what makes banning guns a priority other than a susceptibility to media hype? This sentiment is nothing less than a complete abandonment of reason for the advancement of personal political gain that is not based in fact.

That, and the same 'pragmatic' solutions would be viewed as wholesale abuse if tried in any other area-cars, computers/internet, gasoline, etc.

Even multi-fatality, 100 car pileups don't trigger calls for a "conversation on vehicle control", nor does the number of car crash deaths each year which far outstrip those of guns.

It's only guns that are subject to this easy way out scapegoating.


OH STOP with the farking intellectual dishonesty. It's only the guns that are EXPLICITLY MANUFACTURED FOR THE PURPOSE OF KILLING!!!! Fark you.
2012-12-14 08:11:59 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: You sound like someone who doesn't think the issue through very well. Have you considered that some teachers may want to carry it on their person or have in a purse/bag in a locked drawer?


I'm not a parent, but I suspect I wouldn't even consider sending any kids I may or may not have to a school where a gun was so easily accessible. As I posted earlier, it's not that I don't trust the teacher -- it's that I don't trust the kids in the class. You think that either they wouldn't know the teacher has it or wouldn't think it'd be a cool thing to go and try to get? Because I don't believe either of those for a moment.

I would be far more worried about an "accident" being caused by the presence of the teacher's gun than I would be about any deliberate shooting. I'd be more worried about the former even if the gun was responsibly locked up...

If you want to talk about arming people in the school, I think the only reasonable place to look is something like the principal and other administrative staff.
2012-12-14 08:10:42 PM  
1 votes:

way south: JungleBoogie: Because DOING NOTHING IS NOT ACCEPTABLE THIS TIME."


Heard this kind of talk a few years back.
Everyone was passionate to do something, anything, to prevent a new tragedy.

This is what we did.

[dl.dropbox.com image 420x312]

[dl.dropbox.com image 470x290]

/Action based on emotion instead of reason is not going to get the change you're looking for.


ACTUALLY, we had a similar tragedy in Australia a few years back that prompted a change in gun control which is much stricter. It was implemented by the CONSERVATIVE government, with the full support of the Labor Party (another, slightly less conservative party). We now have meaningful gun control, which, while not perfect, certainly beats the hell out of what you've got in the US.
2012-12-14 08:10:32 PM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: cegorach: The argument is that decades of social programming by certain empowered lobbies have made gun control a non issue in the US.

If you want to make gun control the issue, you're missing an important fact. Our society provides no care for those with mental illness.

Seung-Hui Cho - mentally ill, no government intervention.
[i.usatoday.net image 245x185]

James Holmes - mentally ill, no government intervention.
[www.myfabulousstyle.com image 550x525]

Adam Lanza - mentally ill, no government intervention
[cdn77.psbin.com image 150x200]

But no, we should restrict guns instead of building a system to identify and provide help for people with mental illness. 

The same can be said of Columbine shooters and DC snipers. Let's address the real issue for once, and incorporate it in Obamacare.

/all images hotlinked


THIS THIS THIS THIS AND THIS!
2012-12-14 08:06:33 PM  
1 votes:
Hey mods: can we pretty please have two new threads? One for the gun control discussion and another for the actual story? It's getting really hard to find the posts with updates or discussion on this specific situation, and not just the same tired argument over and over and over. Tks.
2012-12-14 08:05:04 PM  
1 votes:

Le Roi en Jaune: Dear parents, friends, and family of the victims of the latest massacre:

Please accept my condolences on being the latest winners of the great American death lottery. It is unfortunate that your loved ones had to die, slaughtered at the hands of some demented soul; as recompense for your loss, we are prepared to offer the following:
• Hand-wringing
• Endless media attention, at least until the revelation of the next winners of the American death lottery
• Heartfelt anniversary observances by assorted politicians in your state

What we are NOT available to offer, of course, is any meaningful change that would actually reduce the future probabilities of other Americans winning the great massacre lottery. What you must understand is the integral role that is played by large stockpiles of semiautomatic weapons in our country. It is for freedom, after all- a large militia being necessary to defend our nation from enemies foreign and domestic, because, after all, our hundreds of thousands of soldiers, police, and robotic drones are insufficient to the task.

At most, we may consider more restrictions upon your freedom- in this example, more restrictions upon the conduct to and from schools, so that your children can better enjoy an education in the gulags of our Land of the Free. Would it help if we erected more surveillance cameras, and some concertina wire around the classrooms? We certainly think so. Some more zero tolerance policies may help. After all, little Suzie certainly looks threatening with that pair of dull scissors. Such deviants only have a place performing menial labor in our juvenile prisons.

The great American death lottery must be understood as a fundamental element of our society. The productivity that is the basis of our capitalist society is a motor which runs on fear- the fear of the foreigner, the fear of the layoff, and of course, the everpresent fear of a well armed madman.

How would we justify our SWAT teams, our constant surveillance of your ...


I'm stealing this, just to let you know.
2012-12-14 08:04:18 PM  
1 votes:

phrawgh: We need to get God back in our schools.


We need to get God out of everything so people stop justifying everything on the will of an invisible sky wizard.
2012-12-14 08:03:49 PM  
1 votes:
Dear parents, friends, and family of the victims of the latest massacre:

Please accept my condolences on being the latest winners of the great American death lottery. It is unfortunate that your loved ones had to die, slaughtered at the hands of some demented soul; as recompense for your loss, we are prepared to offer the following:
• Hand-wringing
• Endless media attention, at least until the revelation of the next winners of the American death lottery
• Heartfelt anniversary observances by assorted politicians in your state

What we are NOT available to offer, of course, is any meaningful change that would actually reduce the future probabilities of other Americans winning the great massacre lottery. What you must understand is the integral role that is played by large stockpiles of semiautomatic weapons in our country. It is for freedom, after all- a large militia being necessary to defend our nation from enemies foreign and domestic, because, after all, our hundreds of thousands of soldiers, police, and robotic drones are insufficient to the task.

At most, we may consider more restrictions upon your freedom- in this example, more restrictions upon the conduct to and from schools, so that your children can better enjoy an education in the gulags of our Land of the Free. Would it help if we erected more surveillance cameras, and some concertina wire around the classrooms? We certainly think so. Some more zero tolerance policies may help. After all, little Suzie certainly looks threatening with that pair of dull scissors. Such deviants only have a place performing menial labor in our juvenile prisons.

The great American death lottery must be understood as a fundamental element of our society. The productivity that is the basis of our capitalist society is a motor which runs on fear- the fear of the foreigner, the fear of the layoff, and of course, the everpresent fear of a well armed madman.

How would we justify our SWAT teams, our constant surveillance of your electronic communications, incarcerating more citizens than any other Western democracy, if not for tangible re-occurences of senseless slaughter, abetted by the same business interests that ensure that our police are so well stocked?

I find it incredibly selfish of you to be thinking of your dead loved ones at a time when gun control nuts threaten the jobs of so many honest policemen, prison guards, and gunsmiths. Not to mention the hard working and loyal lobbyists of the NRA and the Corrections Corporation of America! We may, in fact, have to shorten the length of our candlelight vigil- after all, it is winter, and Christmas shopping still needs to be done.

In this time of colossal spirtual agony and deprivation, you can expect our sympathy, our charity, our grief, and our words.

But please, don't expect any actual reform. Perish the thought.

Too soon? Too mean? Too political? Sure. But I've watched mass shootings since the San Ysidro massacre. At this point, it's either start shouting, start laughing (insanely), or go numb. Mourning has no meaning anymore.
2012-12-14 08:03:47 PM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: eddievercetti: is there nothing to help the mentally unstable at all?

Not in China and not much in the US.


Unfortunately it isn't just the availability of mental health care that is the problem, it is that we as a culture stigmatize its use.
We don't think of going to a therapist to deal with feelings of anger or resentment that won't go away because, unless it is an extremely obvious psychosis with full-on breaks from reality, we just don't think of it the same way we think of going to a doctor to treat a rash or a persistent fever. We should think of it that way, but instead we feel like we need to just "suck it up" and deal with it ourselves so that nobody thinks of us as weak-willed or crazy. The simple truth, though, is that it can be very difficult to deal with mental and emotional issues on our own; even more difficult than treating yourself for medical issues in many cases, because it results from the chemistry and structure of our own brains. Every experience shapes us, and we all respond to those things in different ways. If people spend years upon years stewing in whatever problems they are having without getting any help dealing with them, it deeply changes them as a person. If they don't get help dealing with it they either spend their lives in turmoil, rebel from the negativity in some self-rescuing epiphany or, sometimes, end themselves in a fit of depression or violence.
2012-12-14 08:01:46 PM  
1 votes:
We need to get God back in our schools.

At least these little angels will be with Jesus for Christmas. Praise the Lord. The dead are the blessed ones.
2012-12-14 07:57:25 PM  
1 votes:
American media has no problem glorifying brutal violence but everyone goes apeshiat over, god forbid, a 2 second wardrobe malfunction.
Our priorities are all screwed up.
Television should show more farking and less killing.
Glorified depictions of death should be considered obscene.
2012-12-14 07:56:57 PM  
1 votes:
Has anyone heard from wholedamnshow yet?

Just worried about him.
2012-12-14 07:56:53 PM  
1 votes:

BraveNewCheneyWorld: But no, we should restrict guns instead of building a system to identify and provide help for people with mental illness.

The same can be said of Columbine shooters and DC snipers. Let's address the real issue for once, and incorporate it in Obamacare.


It doesn't even have to be part of Obamacare. How about taking mental health issues both more and less seriously.

There's a stigma attached to it (look at the information around military suicides for more on this). A person who realizes they're (for lack of better words) not like the rest and might need some help risks exposing himself to the justice system or restrictive end of the mental health system. You see this with people who refuse to go to a mental health professional because while they feel like something is wrong, they don't want to risk being locked up (committed) or having some sort of 'flag' attached to them that will hurt their ability to do one thing or another.

Ensure people's civil rights are not trampled on if they seek mental health services, and spend a generation or more not attaching labels to mental illnesses regardless of their severity or possible consequences and we might just be able to stop these people before they're ever started. Not every person who has homicidal thoughts is a ticking timebomb and not everyone of them needs to put in a database that will forbid them from ever owning guns again.

We see the same thing with pilots and anti-depressants. For DECADES, Pilots with mental health issues couldnt take anti-depressants regardless of how long and how well known the symptoms were. Some pilots wouldn't even seek mental health services for fear of hurting their career. So they hid or self-treated their problem rather then be able to take steps to make it better. Given the choice between a depressed pilot who know something is wrong and is holding it together alone OR the pilot seeing a shrink every now and then and taking Citalopram (first entry on wiki's SSRI page) , I'll take the latter. I want the guy who's getting things worked on vs the guy who's not.

The guy who owns guns and has crazy thoughts he thinks are wrong should be able to go to a shrink without the risk of being arrested, confined, stripped of his guns, etc. lest he choose not to go to a doctor and thus stay off the radar. Given the choice, let's make sure that even the maybe-crazy ones are not impacted by their choice to see a doctor. It sounds counterintuitive, but the alternative is them shying away altogether and having no one talk to them and perhaps talk them down.
2012-12-14 07:56:27 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: cegorach: Mikey1969: sirbissel: Mikey1969: chuckufarlie: This tragedy would not have happened if the guy was armed with a hunting knife. Guns make it much easier to kill lots of people in a short time.

Explain that to the dead and wounded from all of the knife attacks in schools in China, one that actually happened today.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-scho o l.html "China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren"

Somehow I think everyone would rather that the 20 kids were only hurt.

The point is the same one other people are trying to make, it's not guns, it's people. This isn't the first time this has happened there, not even the second, and usually people die. The problem lies in someone who can justify killing a bunch of people that they don't know and have no connection to, no matter how they do it.

And the points you are wilfully ignoring are:

a) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
b) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people
c) The extra effort required for non-gun methods is an effective barrier to stopping crazies in many cases (as every sane nation can attest)
d) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
e) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people

Your argument is pants on head retarded in the first instance and even more so when you spend five seconds stacking it up against well known facts.

That you even repeat the 'guns don't kill people...' mantra simply warns people around you that you are a brainwashed simpleton.

And you either can't see the forest for the trees, you're a complete retard, or you're a total asshole so intent on pushing an agenda that you wouldn't care how many died or were injured, just as long as it was one less than with a gun. I won't be judgemental, I'll let you decide which of the above applies to you.

One last question for you: If knives are so inefficient, how was this guy able to knife 22 kids before he was stopped?

Also, before today, the tally was 21 ...


Actually I am a sane person, talking to a whackjob but I can see how your paranoid delusion would lead you to assume those things about me.

I am wondering why you said 'one last question' when there weren't any before it? Oh that's right, whackjob.

Anyway, leaving aside your argument that knives are more efficient killing tools than guns, because let's face it, it would probably make people drop 50 IQ points to even consider it, I will sort of answer your question by stating the following:

If I had to choose between my child being injured by a highly-efficient knife-wielding crazy person

or

my child being shot dead by a gun wielding crazy person

I'd choose the latter.

But apparently you'd choose the former BECAUSE FREEDOM.
2012-12-14 07:53:49 PM  
1 votes:

Mija: Today In china 22 elementary students were stabbed to death. Things like this will happen even if all the guns in the world were destroyed. A determined person will find a weapon. My sister once stabbed my dad with a fork.


And that's why everyone should have guns.

Because knives exist.

But if knives are exactly the same as guns then why shouldn't we ban some guns? People can just use assault knives to defend their home.
2012-12-14 07:53:38 PM  
1 votes:

Mija: Today In china 22 elementary students were stabbed to death. Things like this will happen even if all the guns in the world were destroyed. A determined person will find a weapon. My sister once stabbed my dad with a fork.


Actually, none of those kids died. As crazy and tragic as an event like that was, the kids all survived.
2012-12-14 07:53:31 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: iq_in_binary: chuckufarlie: Kazrath: thisispete: GORDON: Hey is it too soon in this thread to nail these dead children to crosses in the name of politicizing gun control?

If there isn't to be a conversation about gun control now, when is it going to happen? What is the window on that? Because this kind of thing happens all too frequently.

Why? Gun control is not the issue. Gun control is a bandaid. Way not to talk about the real issue which is mental illness, poverty and brainwashing.

because a crazy guy sitting at home in his chair is just a crazy guy. A crazy guy with an arsenal is a mass murderer.

See the difference?

I'd rather he have guns than be forced to look at the alternatives. Quite frankly, the fact that these sickos turn to guns first is a GOOD thing. Otherwise they'd look for other alternatives, and find them. You know what the difference is between a meth lab and a TNT lab? The reagents for a TNT cook are far easier to get (boat hull cleaner and wood finish), the synthesis is safer than meth, and the process far simpler.

It's an issue that needs to be solved, but their mental health is what needs to be addressed, not their access to firearms. Because frankly, I'd rather hear about some guy shooting up a place and maybe killing a few people than blowing up the damned building and killing ALOT of people.

arguing that we should support gun ownership because people would otherwise use bombs is just possibly the most ignorant argument that I have seen today. That sort of argument solves nothing.

You want to address mental health as if that would resolve the problem. It won't. Most of the crazies that pull off a crime like this were not previously identified as having a mental issue. Do you propose regular scanning of all citizens? That is the only way you are going to have any impact. Even then, crazies are going to skip through.

In short, addressing mental health issues is not the solution. It is just a waste of time.


Thanks for admitting that you have absolutely no interest in preventing spree killings, you're just afraid of guns and don't want people to have them.
2012-12-14 07:53:30 PM  
1 votes:

PunGent: 2. Spent a lot time in Somalia lately? How about Rwanda in the 90s? People looked after each other there, did they?


Actually most of them did.
2012-12-14 07:51:58 PM  
1 votes:

Mija: Today In china 22 elementary students were stabbed to death. Things like this will happen even if all the guns in the world were destroyed. A determined person will find a weapon. My sister once stabbed my dad with a fork.


They weren't stabbed to death. NONE of them died, in fact. But, y'know, any lie in defense of the indefensible, right? STFU.
2012-12-14 07:51:57 PM  
1 votes:

Mija: Today In china 22 elementary students were stabbed to death. Things like this will happen even if all the guns in the world were destroyed. A determined person will find a weapon. My sister once stabbed my dad with a fork.


Incorrect. 0 people were stabbed to death. 22 were injured, most with not enough wounds to hospitalize.

Injured is much better than being dead. Hard to kill many with a knife.
2012-12-14 07:51:15 PM  
1 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: Because most gun crimes are committed by the mentally ill, right?


So you're saying we shouldn't help the mentally ill?
2012-12-14 07:51:13 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: cegorach: Mikey1969: sirbissel: Mikey1969: chuckufarlie: This tragedy would not have happened if the guy was armed with a hunting knife. Guns make it much easier to kill lots of people in a short time.

Explain that to the dead and wounded from all of the knife attacks in schools in China, one that actually happened today.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-scho o l.html "China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren"

Somehow I think everyone would rather that the 20 kids were only hurt.

The point is the same one other people are trying to make, it's not guns, it's people. This isn't the first time this has happened there, not even the second, and usually people die. The problem lies in someone who can justify killing a bunch of people that they don't know and have no connection to, no matter how they do it.

And the points you are wilfully ignoring are:

a) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
b) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people
c) The extra effort required for non-gun methods is an effective barrier to stopping crazies in many cases (as every sane nation can attest)
d) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
e) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people

Your argument is pants on head retarded in the first instance and even more so when you spend five seconds stacking it up against well known facts.

That you even repeat the 'guns don't kill people...' mantra simply warns people around you that you are a brainwashed simpleton.

And you either can't see the forest for the trees, you're a complete retard, or you're a total asshole so intent on pushing an agenda that you wouldn't care how many died or were injured, just as long as it was one less than with a gun. I won't be judgemental, I'll let you decide which of the above applies to you.

One last question for you: If knives are so inefficient, how was this guy able to knife 22 kids before he was stopped?

Also, before today, the tally was 21 ...


I have no idea what went wrong in China or how long it took but if the guy in CT. had entered a classroom with a knife, the teacher would have probably fought him while the kids ran. The guy in China wounded 22, he did not kill them.
2012-12-14 07:45:15 PM  
1 votes:

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Totally a foreigner from another country here, and sure it might be off-base, but shouldn't the second amendment mean you have the right to keep and bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia?

I mean, putting well-regulated militias in charge of gun ownership would at least mean someone has the responsibility to keep dangerous people away from guns, right?


Bad idea.
Many of the existing militia in the US are, in fact, criminal gangs with bad intentions. The only thing that is worse than a lunatic with a gun is a dozen lunatics working in concert to achieve an objective. You don't want to put them in charge of deciding who can be armed, because they'll decide it should be them and no one else.
If you leave it in the hands of the state, politicians will sell this right to the highest bidder (and criminals have cash to burn). So that's not a solution either.

The 2nd amendment defended the rights of individuals to own weapons, for the purposes of forming militia, so they could effectively defend themselves from these kinds of threats.

The problem is we have some very sick individuals among us. Without treatment, they will continue to lash out at society in increasingly destructive ways.
If you want to prevent mad gunmen from becoming mad arsonists, you need to deal with the madness first.

/That is the lesson we never seem to learn.
2012-12-14 07:39:43 PM  
1 votes:

Kit Fister: TheDirtyNacho: Gun nuts, your lifestyle is creepy, dangerous and rapidly becoming unacceptable.

"Arm the teachers". Yeah, I can just see some petite 24 year old kindergarten teacher packing lethal heat in case "current gun laws" fail yet again. Better get her to the range for weekly target practice as well.

/madness on madness

I'm glad that you don't have to own a gun nor do you get to tell anyone else what to do.



If I lived in the country, where wild rabid animals roam, I would own a gun. I'll even give a pass to hunters, assuming their weapons are well locked up.

But for the people who collect numerous handguns, semi-assault weapons, etc, and have some paranoid fetishist fantasies about being a 'hero', they ought to have their head examined and are not the kind of person who should be possessing such weapons.

I think the majority would agree with me on that, and they in fact, do get to tell anyone else what to do. Let's take it to a vote.
2012-12-14 07:38:59 PM  
1 votes:

cegorach: Dear America,

Why the FARK do you idiots keep referring to a document written in

SEVENTEEN FARKING NINETY-ONE

as if it is a goddamn holy writ handed down as an irrefutable aspect of reality?

Are you even aware of how twisted your nation has become by its slavish (and wildly fantastical) adoration of its Founding Fathers?


Last time I checked, that same document prevents the government from infringing upon your speech. It also has not been repealed, so it still applied.
2012-12-14 07:38:06 PM  
1 votes:
I've been doing drugs all day and right now I can go to Walmart and buy a gun, no waiting period for shotguns right?

America! Fark yeah!
A bushel of dead kids is the price other people have to pay for my freedom!
2012-12-14 07:36:59 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: ApocoLypstick: Just got home, havent read all the comments.

Does anyone else feel that the level of violence hasnt really changed over time, but that the instant access we have now make it seem that way?

/not a troll
//i would have a cave troll though
/// slashies are sooo 5 minutes ago

Violent crime, including homicide, has followed a downward trend since 1992.


See i think its always been there. Its just that we hear about quicker, 24hr news goes for the most shocking most evil thing out there
2012-12-14 07:35:42 PM  
1 votes:
Isn't it high time we started taking the words "well regulated" more seriously now?
2012-12-14 07:34:26 PM  
1 votes:

jso2897: tony41454: The gunman shot himself inside the school. His older brother is now talking to police. The police believe the older brother is not involved. Adam (the shooter) was mentally disabled. He stole the guns from his mother (who had legally purchased them) and took his brother's ID (to further confuse the issue).

Obama is right--this needs to change. But not his way. In Israel teachers carry guns and provide protection for their children...in America, we provide condoms. This whole situation would have turned out different if there had been an armed, trained teacher with a .9mm there at the school. We don't need more gun laws, we need more armed citizens to prevent the loonies from doing this.

The problem isn't that Americans HAVE guns - the Israelis and the Swiss have more - the problem is we LIKE the Goddamn things too much - and believe in them. And that's a sickness.


This.

Like I said in another post, the industry has been setting a course for "Full Retard" lately. Case in point: zombies. WHY, in any way, shape or form, is the gun industry even remotely involved with zombies? That just smacks of rampant irresponsibility. When you manufacture weapons that can and, sadly, have been used to do very bad things and you market them to people - some of whom, sadly, are QUITE prone to suggestion - the last thing you farking do is taunt the farking dynamite monkey.

This, from an airsoft company...

cdn.ammoland.com

is barely tolerable as it is, and those guns won't do more than leave a few welts.

This shiat...

cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com

is irresponsible. Full stop.
2012-12-14 07:33:33 PM  
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: Atypical Person Reading Fark: and you think some psychologist or psychiatrist could have prevented this? How?

Well actual treatment can work wonders for some people. Also what treatment a person gets matters a lot. Some people need a psychiatrist and psychologist. But good luck getting insurance to pay for both. Also it's rather hard these days to find psychiatrists who will spend 50 minutes a couple times a week with someone just talking. And if he was obviously a danger to himself or others it is possible to get someone committed.


With many personality disorders, there's no difference between people receiving frequent treatment and people receiving no treatment. Further, that applies to several other mental disorders.

I keep up on the literature on a couple of the most troublesome personality disorders and I see absolutely no advances in their treatment. Instead, we see more and more people diagnosed in those categories.

There's no "talk therapy" for antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder. There's no "psychiatric treatment" for it either, there are bandaids (and frankly, most therapists do not want either personality disorder in their practice, this is something about which there is a broad literature - if there's no treatment and they're likely to kill you, why would you have them come to your office?)

And when it comes to the courts, you're right - it's very hard to get someone committed.

No one is probably interested, but violence rates pre- and post-introduction of television and video games have been studied. It does make a difference.

Even if you had all the money in the world, there are some things psychiatrists can't treat - and an honest shrink will tell you that.
2012-12-14 07:31:16 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: sirbissel: Mikey1969: chuckufarlie: This tragedy would not have happened if the guy was armed with a hunting knife. Guns make it much easier to kill lots of people in a short time.

Explain that to the dead and wounded from all of the knife attacks in schools in China, one that actually happened today.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-scho o l.html "China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren"

Somehow I think everyone would rather that the 20 kids were only hurt.

The point is the same one other people are trying to make, it's not guns, it's people. This isn't the first time this has happened there, not even the second, and usually people die. The problem lies in someone who can justify killing a bunch of people that they don't know and have no connection to, no matter how they do it.


And the points you are wilfully ignoring are:

a) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
b) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people
c) The extra effort required for non-gun methods is an effective barrier to stopping crazies in many cases (as every sane nation can attest)
d) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill
e) Guns make it a whole lot easier to kill a lot of people

Your argument is pants on head retarded in the first instance and even more so when you spend five seconds stacking it up against well known facts.

That you even repeat the 'guns don't kill people...' mantra simply warns people around you that you are a brainwashed simpleton.
2012-12-14 07:30:32 PM  
1 votes:

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: jso2897: USP .45: jso2897: 'Fess up - you're a false-flag operative from the Bradey outfit, aren't you?

so...assuming there will be significant societal breakdown if there is no infrastructure for weeks or more makes be a secret gun control advocate how?

Because you are trying to create the impression that gun rights advocates are loons who entertain doomsday fantasies like those you are relating now. We do not.
You are trying to make the Second Amendment look like a bad idea.

Totally a foreigner from another country here, and sure it might be off-base, but shouldn't the second amendment mean you have the right to keep and bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia?

I mean, putting well-regulated militias in charge of gun ownership would at least mean someone has the responsibility to keep dangerous people away from guns, right?


The Supreme Court has stated that the miltia part is a preamble to the second phrase, "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." I'm totally serious. They pretend that it's not there.
2012-12-14 07:25:34 PM  
1 votes:
If the kids had been carrying handguns this wouldn't have happened.
If people are going to get killed by guns, it is a shame that all the victims aren't NRA members or their family members. They are the reason for the availability of so many unnecessary guns.
2012-12-14 07:24:32 PM  
1 votes:

Cobataiwan: 1956 and 1968...stuff happened in Eastern Europe. Maybe you heard of it.


Considering I was born in Czechoslovakia and my dad had friends involved in the Prague Spring of 68? You could say I've heard of it.
2012-12-14 07:22:55 PM  
1 votes:
I'm the consummate lurker, but i remember back when i could scan these types of thread for updates and new information. This is not as true anymore. I know....welcometofark.jpg.
2012-12-14 07:21:40 PM  
1 votes:
I'm farking pissed off as well as being sad while I write this but seriously....wtf.
I grew up with guns in the house. My dad taught me how to be responsible. I lived in the woods, small town. I grew up viewing guns in a whole different light than say kids in the city.
I believe in this country and I believe we can actually do something that can prevent this from happening in the future. But it's not just the government. WTF are parents doing now days? Where are peoples priorities?? We argue online about cell phones but won't go to our legislatures to voice our opinion.
Something has to be done with guns that are only meant to kill as many people as quickly as possible. There is no other use for these guns unless you wanna shred shiat at the shooting range.
If we need guns to protect ourselves all that tells me is that we are already assuming some friggin maniac out there has the ability to get a gun as easy as you do.

RIP kids.
2012-12-14 07:19:41 PM  
1 votes:
ph0rk: I don't play the lottery because I don't like throwing money away on a sure not-thing. Prepping for the paramilitary invasion of my own home is similar.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Do you buy insurance? Because chances are you don't need that either.


My insurance policy doesn't lead to rooms full of kindergartners getting slaughtered. Or rooms full of engineering students getting slaughtered.
2012-12-14 07:18:17 PM  
1 votes:

tony41454: Adam (the shooter) was mentally disabled.


Disabled or ill?
2012-12-14 07:17:36 PM  
1 votes:

Leo Bloom's Freakout: Tuesdae: GodLovesBeer: Can't bring myself to talk to the kids about this. 4 and 8, don't see the point.

Likewise with my 6-year old. No point and momma lacks words.

While I understand the feeling you both express, and you probably have the weekend to put it into some form of perspective if you avoid the news and the kids don't independantly watch TV... It may come up at school Monday amongst peers or through the teachers. I would take an opportunity to get ahead of them and frame it the way you would like it to be expressed and have those difficult talks on your terms.

It's hard to explain that bad things happen, and that it's unfair and sometimes doesn't make sense to us as adults. To explain that, even as a parent, we all need time to process what happened, and to let them know it's one reason why family is so important. Maybe it would help for you all to do something together to help and see what their ideas would be to reach out to people who need help in CT, or just in your own town.

For now, my daughter is too young for these weighty discussions (17 months), but I hope that when (wish it was an "if") this happens in her youth, that I find a way to express it and discuss it with her. It's better for both involved to know that, as a parent, you have the strength to talk through the roughest spots rather than wait for the discussion to come on someone else's angle.


Mine are 10, 9 and 7 and homeschooled. I couldn't really avoid the conversation, because they saw me sitting at the computer sobbing. I explained it as delicately as I could, and they cried a little with me. I cancelled the rest of the school day and we spent the rest of the day just being together.
2012-12-14 07:15:49 PM  
1 votes:

Lsherm: Really? That's where you're going with this? Exempt employees?


You have people being worked who knows how many hours with no overtime, that isn't a good way to promote sanity or mental health. Hell just the hours, even with overtime pay, aren't a good thing when it comes to mental health.

torquestripe: So an armed deterrent in place before another shooting happens would not be a deterrent?


We've got deterrents out the wazoo, yet we've done nothing to actually address any issues. All having more deterrents does is push off dealing with things.
2012-12-14 07:15:04 PM  
1 votes:

Mrbogey: ordinarysteve: a shotgun is a firearm and can be used to protect one's family. it isn't as effective for murdering classrooms full of kids. i don't see what part of that is confusing you

What's the AC on a "classroom full of kids"? Do they get a saving throw against projectiles? Because something tells me that a shotgun can easily kill a child.

Sorry if I'm being a dick here. But we're talking about a psychopath who killed children. Defenseless children. Virtually any weapon will kill anything if it can't defend itself. It's a prima facie thing.


Oh it's worse than that.

Shotguns are GREAT at mowing down enclosed areas full of unarmored targets at close quarters combat. The spreading action of the pellets tends to mean that you need to think about aiming a lot less, and there's a greater shock and awe factor that may terrify the rest of the room, giving the shooter plenty of time to pick his next target.

That's why they were loved so much by Americans facing WWII trench warfare (a trench being, tactically speaking, not unlike a roofless corridor in the dirt), and Vietnam tunnel rats, all the way up to today's shotguns for tactical breaching operations.

(what they can't do is penetrate armor, be accurate at long distances, or reload quickly-but that means precisely jack if your plan of the day is "kick open classroom door full of unprepared victims and slaughter everything inside")
2012-12-14 07:14:39 PM  
1 votes:
Why is it that "gun people" on the internet always come off as smug, condescending pricks? Do they somehow believe that their possession and knowledge of weapons somehow makes then more intelligent?

Serious question, I see it all over the internet. Did the smug and condescending attitude exist before the weapons or is it because of the weapons.
2012-12-14 07:13:46 PM  
1 votes:

pedrop357: Magorn: I'm not trying to sore anything, and i like you personally, your muzzle loaders ain't going to be causing mass casualties anytime soon.. But this is farking IT. This has to stop . People need to be able to go to the movies, or shopping, children need to be able to go to school without worrying that some maniac is going to end their life on a whim. This cannot be a regular feature of a civilized society PERIOD. NOW I personally do not give a flying fark whether we accomplish this by making guns way less available to people or mental health care much more available, but we've at least got to do one or the other, and we need to do it yesterday

This kind of thinking is why problems never get solved. Impulsive solution driven by emotional responses either overreach or completely miss the target objective.

Perhaps if people tried treating this the way we do every other mass attack we'd have more luck.

When a serial rapist strikes, we don't talk about car control, limiting ski mask purchases, mass DNA databases.
When a person make child pornography with their children, we don't talk about camera control, internet connection background checks, registering parents, penis mold databases, etc.
When a kidnapper snatches a kid, we don't talk about mass GPS tracking of all people, cars, etc.

In each case, we focus on the person--detecting their behavior ahead of time, encouraging self awareness for those who may be inclined, trying to find more common criteria with which to diagnose or focus on, and we also look at preventative techniques (rape whistles, mace, guns OR telling kids to scream and fight, etc.).

We don't focus on the tools used to make the job easier or even those tool with which the job would be impossible (can't really send child porn over the internet without an internet connection).

Maybe if we looked at mass killings the way we look at other horrible behavior by one or two seeming deranged people aimed at seemingly random people, we'd be much furt ...


you cannot be serious? Comparing a serial rapist to a man who shoots and kills 20 children? A serial rapist commits his crimes over a long period of time. The gun used by a mass murderer is what allows him to perform his heinous acts in a very short period of time.

All of the items that you mention in conjunction with your other crimes serve a useful purpose. People use cars to get to work, cameras are used to record events. Semi-automatic weapons serve no useful purpose other than killing a lot of people in a short period of time. A hunting trip can be just as successful with a single shot rifle as it can be with a semi-automatic rifle.

You could make the case that I could ride a horse to work and that it would just take a little longer but that argument does not work with rifles and hunting. The chances that you are going to get off a second shot that will hit the now alert and running animals are slim. You only get one good shot, no matter how many rounds are loaded in your rifle.
2012-12-14 07:13:35 PM  
1 votes:

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Seriously, what in god's name has made you so afraid of your neighbours and the future?


www.inmusicwetrust.com

Macho insecurity
Macho insecurity
Macho insecurity
'Cause you can't stand
yourself



/hot
2012-12-14 07:10:30 PM  
1 votes:

USP .45: Iraq. Afghanistan. Syria.


Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia, overthrew their government without any need for weapons.

BraveNewCheneyWorld: one of our most minor problems


The families of the dead and wounded may not find it such a minor problem.
2012-12-14 07:09:54 PM  
1 votes:

USP .45: At worst the power came back after 2 days after that blackout. Useless example.

When tens, hundreds of thousands of people start to run out of food, and they panic, shiat is going to get wild, and you just come off as a thick framed hipster trying to apply an ideology to that belief. You were probably in the Black Friday threads snarking at how bovine and savage everyone acts at WalMart.


No, I wasn't.

You, btw, come off as some sort of doomer who wants to live in a Montana cabin with a bag of silver rounds and a squirrel-hunting rifle.

When are hundreds of thousands of people going to run out of food? You're talking a collapse in logistics across an entire country.

And when they run out of food, what? Are you going to get our your AR-15 to drive them away? Because you don't want to share food with the other people in your neighbourhood?

Or, down deep, is it fear of the coming negro uprising, and my little Turner Diaries dig was spot-on?

Seriously, what in god's name has made you so afraid of your neighbours and the future?
2012-12-14 07:05:06 PM  
1 votes:

sprawl15: I am pondering what it may be.


a lot less poverty, access to health care, little economic stagnation, good labor laws, things like that.
2012-12-14 07:03:15 PM  
1 votes:

JungleBoogie: TiiiMMMaHHH: HEY ARSEHOLES,
PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. Guns are tools. STFU and put your soapboxes away. I dont give a shiat what side of this aisle you are on.

Kids are dead. Some mentally inferior farktard couldn't just end his own life, he had to spread some misery first.

Maybe you could argue for making alcohol illegal, since it's going to take at least a dozen lives tonight, and every friday night, across the country due to drunk driving. That's way more regular and alarming than the quarterly rampage.

Pretend you're the NTSB looking at a plane crash. You examine it, figure out how to prevent it in the future. That's what many of us are doing. The NTSB doesn't look at the wreckage and shrug, "Oh well, there's NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO ABOUT IT" other than make people hold hands and sing Kumbayah.

And neither should any observer of this tragedy.


Yes, but the NTSB doesn't look at the data, determine that pilot error or failure caused the crash, and turn around and tell the aerial world "well, I know that the pilot freaked out and decided to crash the plane, but those 777 jets are just WAY too big and scary and dangerous, so we're banning those. Also, only the Military and commercial aircraft pilots can fly planes now, private individuals can no longer get their pilot's license."
2012-12-14 07:01:11 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: chuckufarlie: This tragedy would not have happened if the guy was armed with a hunting knife. Guns make it much easier to kill lots of people in a short time.

Explain that to the dead and wounded from all of the knife attacks in schools in China, one that actually happened today.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-scho o l.html "China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren"

Somehow I think everyone would rather that the 20 kids were only hurt.
2012-12-14 07:01:10 PM  
1 votes:

Mikey1969: chuckufarlie: This tragedy would not have happened if the guy was armed with a hunting knife. Guns make it much easier to kill lots of people in a short time.

Explain that to the dead and wounded from all of the knife attacks in schools in China, one that actually happened today.


there were no fatalities in that attack in CHINA.
2012-12-14 06:57:43 PM  
1 votes:

torquestripe: Or do you not agree?


I don't agree because I don't live in fear. In case you haven't noticed the common thread in various shootings is mental health issues, known before the shootings ever happened. We have a country that exempts entire industries from overtime pay law, where there is no provision for leave for mental health reasons, where many people can't get the help they need or can only get part of it. Take care of that stuff and related stuff, and there's a lot less chance of bad stuff happening.
2012-12-14 06:56:48 PM  
1 votes:

sprawl15: I assume you mean the mindset of OBUMMER GON TAK OUR GUNZ? That ammo was issued to the owners, so it was government property and isn't really analogous to standard US paranoia.


I was under the impression that all ammo was controlled, and that you could only keep ammo at home if issued the ammo as part of militia service, but I'm probably wrong about that. I read that you can buy ammo only on ranges and have to use it all there, but I'm also reading that it isn't really enforced. Probably because it doesn't need to be. If they saw the level of gun violence we do, they might actually enforce that one.

I guess I'd prefer putting regulations in place, and maybe one day we'll advance to the point that we can be lax about them like the Swiss.
2012-12-14 06:55:09 PM  
1 votes:
Man, its a really bad year to be named Sandy.

I don't anymore, but if I did have a friend named Sandy, I would give him or her a big hug and explain the chaotic nature of our universe.
2012-12-14 06:54:28 PM  
1 votes:

willyfreddy: [img194.imageshack.us image 600x431]

/so glad I don't live in the U.S.


Today, I am embarrassed for the entire country. It is all rather embarrassing that a bunch of people need to own a gun so they can compensate.
2012-12-14 06:53:46 PM  
1 votes: