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(CBS Connecticut)   Connecticut school shooting thread, Part 3. Bring the ongoing discussion/bar fight here   (connecticut.cbslocal.com) divider line 2792
    More: Followup, CBS, school shootings, Connecticut Post, emergency evacuation, Columbine High School, CBSNewYork, Newtown, Connecticut State Police  
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11288 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Dec 2012 at 3:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-14 04:31:50 PM

lacydog: COMALite J:

All of this is just one example of the numerous shenanigans Moore pulled in that movie. And the really sad thing is that he had a golden opportunity to do the right thing instead. He himself has since said on video that he agrees that the SSRI hypothesis is the most likely explanation, that fits all of the known observations including timing and demographics.

If today′s tragedy involves SSRIs or SNRIs or some such as well as it almost certainly does (I would be extremely surprised if that turns out to not be the case, though it could still be hypermania caused by a brain tumor, blow to the head, etc. as was the case with most known such incidents prior to the introduction of SSRIs), then this would bring the body count of incidents we know about that would almost certainly have been prevented had Moore done the right thing, to nearly three digits.

Ignoring the rest of what you said (this just in, Michael Moore is an idiot and everyone already knew), what is this? I remember some vigilantly anti-Psychology nuts getting into a rage about SSRIs after Columbine, but the only thing officially said about it was that the shooter had some SSRI in his system and might have been influenced to go off his meds. What's this nonsense about SSRI's causing school shootings?

SSRIs do, in less than 1% of the population that takes them, exacerbate the symptoms that they're trying to cure. Many other medicines do the exact same thing. That's why in the few weeks where someone is starting an SSRI treatment plan, they should be carefully monitored by a mental health professional to make sure that if they start seeing signs of this that the treatment is terminated. However, someone being an idiot and terminating treatment abruptly, or taking too many/too little... that would be dangerous. That would be dangerous pretty much no matter what kind of pill you're talking about.


THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:02 PM

JungleBoogie: dwrash: I could also run around with a machete and a compound bow and do just as much damage.

No, you really couldn't.

Guns are a point and click lethal device, designed to deliver high velocity projectiles accurately from a distance. You certainly could do damage with an arrow or machete. Or car for that matter. But a firearm is a device that is the peak of lethal evolution. It is the most effective, inexpensive man-portable killing device that humanity has today.

That is why combat soldiers go into battle with firearms, and not bows and arrows, or machetes.


One word Bayonettes... still standard issue in the military for close quarter fighting.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:07 PM

ArgusRun: Ban person to person gun sales. You can only sell to a registered dealer. No more gun shows. Expand buy back programs. Raises taxes on ammunition.


You going to ban reloading equipment too? How about 3d printers?
 
2012-12-14 04:32:09 PM

JungleBoogie: SpikeStrip: in a month, this will be forgotten.

I don't think so. Dead adults and teenagers - that's like war. Dead kindergardeners... one six year old grabbing his lunch before running out... that's something that's going to stick around for a long, long time.

This was the type of massacre, sufficiently brutal and grotesque, to really get some effective changes done. People need to get off their lazy butts and get involved. The first problem is breaking the control moneyed interests have over DC. The second is reducing the manufacture and sale of firearms so criminals have less access to them.


You know how I know nothing will happen ? Colt firearms are based in CT. The plant that makes the AR-15, the gun people seem to go nuts over is made right down the road in West Hartford CT. This would directly impact jobs in the very state where this occurred.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:14 PM
My oldest son's 7. That's where my brain breaks.

fark it, I need to bail from work and have a drink while I watch him play with his brother.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:18 PM

s2s2s2: This argument fetish needs to end. This discussion is nothing if both sides aren't equally concerned with the same goal: saving lives.


I just think the trolls just need to fark off and find a different thread to play in
 
2012-12-14 04:32:20 PM

Virtue: zedster: He is including military guns which are a different story

You do realize that is coming from the anti gun crowd right?


CATO is anti-gun?

The quote appears to be saying:
1. Israel and Sweden have a high gun rate like the US
2. They do not have the same gun deaths numbers we do
3. therefor guns are not the problem

Problem is that 1 is simply not true and on top of that ignores the fact that both have conscription and thus a higher level of training on guns among their citizens.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:26 PM

JungleBoogie: SpikeStrip: in a month, this will be forgotten.

I don't think so. Dead adults and teenagers - that's like war. Dead kindergardeners... one six year old grabbing his lunch before running out... that's something that's going to stick around for a long, long time.

This was the type of massacre, sufficiently brutal and grotesque, to really get some effective changes done. People need to get off their lazy butts and get involved. The first problem is breaking the control moneyed interests have over DC. The second is reducing the manufacture and sale of firearms so criminals have less access to them.


In 10 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, Connecticut lost 65 KIA. It's the farking scale of this slaughter that is just farking sad.
 
2012-12-14 04:32:55 PM

Virtue: shower_in_my_socks: Then why is the murder rate in Japan, where guns are illegal, 1/8th the level of the US's? What, Japanese pyschos just aren't resourceful enough?

As David Lamp writes at Cato,


forum.sportsmogul.com
 
2012-12-14 04:32:58 PM

buckler: I spent many, many years working with elementary-school-age kids, and had a particular fondness for the kindergartners, the little ones. Having no children of my own, they woke up my paternal instincts, and I delighted in teaching them, watching their eyes light up with discovery when they learned something new, or when I was greeted with a mass of hugs when walking in the door. I cared for all my kids, the thousands I took care of, but those tiny ones always held a place in my heart. I never forgot that I was being handed a huge responsibility in being trusted with a parent's most valuable asset in life: their child. I would have gladly given my own life to defend any one of them. I'm sure the dead teachers did the same.

Got over the tears.
Got over the urge to vomit.
Still stunned.
Dude had the decency to off himself...just wish he'd done it first.


I would prefer that he had survived, so that he can be forced to endure the consequences of his actions for the rest of what would have been his natural life.
 
2012-12-14 04:33:01 PM

coco ebert: inner ted: coco ebert: The topic of mental health funding always comes up when the shooter is white. fark that, Imma go with terrorist sumamabiatch.

yes, please keep bringing race into an incident that had little to nothing to do with race.

/when you tire out that chicken, what will you move on to?

Isn't it crazy how it's never about race when a white person is the perpetrator?


please do explain how race is any factor at all in this incident
 
2012-12-14 04:33:04 PM

netweavr: netwea


I would assume that if a news story says no deaths, that there are no confirmed deaths to report. That's kind of the most important detail in a story like this, it's not like it would just slip their mind to report it. That's not to say any of the wounded couldn't end up dying (obviously you hope they don't), but as of right now, it certainly would appear that there are no deaths in that story.
 
2012-12-14 04:33:04 PM

HST's Dead Carcass: USP .45: Irony?

It's nutjobs not being reported or examined as nutjobs. It's one civil liberty at odds with another (we need a national database of nutjobs?). Putting laws on the books regarding nutjobs not being allowed to have guns is easy, and has already been done.

Yes, protecting the inhabitants of the nation is politicizing it.

So, if the deaths were the case of food poisoning, would you be ok with more strict food preparation standards?

Wait! I can't make analogies like this! It blows a huge hole in the logic of your argument! Food is not guns, how stupid can I be?


Moreover your right to food is not enumerated in the constitution.

/oh noes OBAMA is gonna take our food!
 
2012-12-14 04:33:16 PM
I think what's more idiotic than people jumping the gun on the shooter's identity is the backlack of morons that think a conspiracy is going on when the media corrects themselves. UGH.
 
2012-12-14 04:33:36 PM
Can someone link me to a stream of some good coverage of this? Just got home and I am NOT going to CNN for this.
 
2012-12-14 04:33:45 PM

ArgusRun: Ban person to person gun sales. You can only sell to a registered dealer. No more gun shows. Expand buy back programs. Raises taxes on ammunition.


Notice how you're suggesting things that would not have had any effect on the recent high profile shootings.

I suspect this is intentional.
 
2012-12-14 04:33:50 PM

Sterling Thunder: my ONLY point is that if all the guns were gone tomorrow wastes like these would find another way.



Yes, they would find another way. But it would be FAR LESS EFFECTIVE.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:17 PM
letrole: But in nearly all cases, this lack of personal restraint comes from the breakdown of society

cameroncrazy1984: Or, you know, a lack of mental healthcare in this country.

zarberg: I wrote about just that after the Aurora shootings.



These fellows aren't psychotic. They aren't incapable of conforming to the norms of society. They don't pick flowers off the wallpaper or fling their own poo. They have rational thoughts and high levels of capacity for achievement.

They choose to be aberrations, simply because they can. It's now presented as a viable option, because society is unable to maintain strict compliance to absolute definitions of normal.

Are those Goth kids *crazy*? Are Hipsters with their funny hats and cringeworthy tattoos and big holes in their ears -- are they actual lunatics?

No. They're simply otherwise normal people who have chosen bizarre ways of expressing individuality, simply because they can.

And some of these people who would otherwise conform to an enforced norm are free to fantasise and obsess over the short-lived power and glory that comes with conducting a spree.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:17 PM
Can we help the unstable from now on?
Can we keep the weapons away from them?
Can we remember the victims in this?
Can we do anything to stop the next one?
Can we stop focusing on the killer?

The answer is to all of these questions is sadly...not today, not ever.

/I'm done.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:18 PM

shower_in_my_socks: pedrop357: Ban them and people will simply replace them with something else and you'll have accomplished little.


Then why is the murder rate in Japan, where guns are illegal, 1/8th the level of the US's? What, Japanese pyschos just aren't resourceful enough?


I think that is his point, it is more about our culture than it is the access to guns.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:24 PM
An armed society is a polite society!
 
2012-12-14 04:34:27 PM

Magorn: What worm-eaten excuse for a brain to you have to have that makes you capable of putting a rifle to your shoulder, looking down the sights seeing CHILD's Face and STILLbeing able pull the trigger?! Holy mother of god, how could ANYONE do that no matter how sick or filled with rage?


A total sociopath with absolutely zero humanity. That's really the only explanation that doesn't involve some sort of demonic possession.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:37 PM

Imperialism: Can someone link me to a stream of some good coverage of this? Just got home and I am NOT going to CNN for this.



HuffPo Live Blog
 
2012-12-14 04:34:40 PM

Ardilla: USP .45: Ardilla: Cagey B: I would be more down with the "this isn't the time for politics" crowd if we didn't systematically ignore some of the root causes for this stuff every time it happens.

ABSOLUTELY THIS.

If now isn't the time to have a discussion about gun control, when will it ever be?

Irony?

It's nutjobs not being reported or examined as nutjobs. It's one civil liberty at odds with another (we need a national database of nutjobs?). Putting laws on the books regarding nutjobs not being allowed to have guns is easy, and has already been done.

So, you're cool with this sort of thing happening over and over again, then?

At minimum, we need to have a national discussion about gun control and, yes, about mental health. But it's long past time for us to enact some sensible guidelines and restrictions.

Wringing our hands yet doing nothing, yet again, is not acceptable.



There's no sense in arguing with him. His mindset is that if the government starts enacting gun control measures, the logical conclusion is that the country will somehow become a police state like nazi germany. His basis for thinking that is because at some point along the line when Hitler was consolidating his iron grip over every facet of the German government and people, he outlawed gun ownership by jews.

You're trying to reason with someone who is utterly convinced that owning a gun is what defines a free person. To him, you might as well be arguing that every U.S. citizen should be tattooed with serial numbers.
 
2012-12-14 04:34:49 PM

lacydog: netweavr: netwea

I would assume that if a news story says no deaths, that there are no confirmed deaths to report. That's kind of the most important detail in a story like this, it's not like it would just slip their mind to report it. That's not to say any of the wounded couldn't end up dying (obviously you hope they don't), but as of right now, it certainly would appear that there are no deaths in that story.


8 inch knife, attacking the head and ears of small children and no one reports deaths... Does China ban reporting the deaths of children? Approaching morbid territory here, but it just seems hard to believe.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:11 PM

Sterling Thunder: mrshowrules: IRQ12: : mrshowrulesJerseyTim: CBS: Six more children found hiding in closets at school. #newtown- jessica testa (@jtes) December 14, 2012


Is there a source for this? If that is tru it's so brutal I can't even think,

IfSterling Thunder: Having 4 kids this makes me very sad and very angry. I don't care about which side of gun control you fall on as there is likely no changing your mind. If these wastes didn't have guns they would have made a homemade bomb, waste like this don't care or think they just act. Of course the cowards offed themselves or went and hid because consequences are for others. There is no punishment harsh enough.

You start by saying you don't care which side you are on but then proceed to give a tired pro-gun argument.

How long does it take to build a bomb big enough to kill this many people? How long does it take a mentally person to build a device like this. I had a close friend who has schizophrenia. When he was losing his faculties he found even the most mundane tasks complicated. Building a bomb for him would be impossible.


I say I don't care because people have made up their minds, and that is fine. My very valid point is that wastes like this will find a way. I didn't say it was ok that they used guns or others should or shouldn't have them. Keep your projections to yourself.


You find your point to be "very valid". I do not. If you feel it appropriate to make this point (which is anti-gun control point BTW). It is at least equally appropriate for me to refute it.

Removing or reducing the means an opportunity from the mentally ill or criminal can prevent or reduce the number of victims. Access to a gun can can cause 1 victim instead of 0. It could be the difference between 10 victims and 30. So I poliitely disagree with your "they will find a way" argument because I just don't buy the premise that a guns aren't one of the factors in these killings.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:13 PM

Der Poopflinger: s2s2s2: This argument fetish needs to end. This discussion is nothing if both sides aren't equally concerned with the same goal: saving lives.

I just think the trolls just need to fark off and find a different thread to play in


I still interpret the 2nd as a recognition of an individual right. I just don't know if I can agree that it should be viewed as worthwhile, anymore.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:16 PM

Imperialism: Can someone link me to a stream of some good coverage of this? Just got home and I am NOT going to CNN for this.


http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/State-Police-Responding-to-S h ooting-at-School-Police--183498401.html
 
2012-12-14 04:35:19 PM

Sterling Thunder: LET ME BE CLEAR: I don't have an opinion on the guns, my ONLY point is that if all the guns were gone tomorrow wastes like these would find another way.


Except NO.

Sure, some of them might. Maybe many of them.

But many of them wouldn't; many of them would take their own life, act in a less severe manner, or not act at all.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:24 PM

USP .45: Notice how you're suggesting things that would not have had any effect on the recent high profile shootings.

I suspect this is intentional.


Except that the guns in recent high profile, high casualty shootings, i.e. Aurora, Gabby Giffords, Vtech, etc were legally obtained by the people who committed these crimes, and every one of them had a mental health history which SHOULD have raised a red flag.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:27 PM

inner ted: coco ebert: inner ted: coco ebert: The topic of mental health funding always comes up when the shooter is white. fark that, Imma go with terrorist sumamabiatch.

yes, please keep bringing race into an incident that had little to nothing to do with race.

/when you tire out that chicken, what will you move on to?

Isn't it crazy how it's never about race when a white person is the perpetrator?

please do explain how race is any factor at all in this incident


I'm not saying it played a role in motivating him to do what he did. I'm talking more about the aftermath and how people respond. Inner-city violence = their culture; Acts of violence by a Muslim = their culture; numerous acts of violence by young white males = MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS

/not that there isn't a mental health crisis
 
2012-12-14 04:35:30 PM
pro-gun. lifetime NRA. anti-223 anti-civillian-m4/ar-15/m16's. they're just toys designed for killing people.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:33 PM

zedster: Problem is that 1 is simply not true and on top of that ignores the fact that both have conscription and thus a higher level of training on guns among their citizens.


Which only further proves the point that its not the guns.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:34 PM

serial_crusher: eddievercetti: He killed kids, parents, roommate and maybe his girlfirend

How does somebody that crazy have a girlfriend, and I don't?


Socio paths can be rather charismatic

Charlie Manson.
Jim Jones.


Pat Robertson....
 
2012-12-14 04:35:40 PM

shower_in_my_socks: Sterling Thunder: my ONLY point is that if all the guns were gone tomorrow wastes like these would find another way.


Yes, they would find another way. But it would be FAR LESS EFFECTIVE.


Or far more
 
2012-12-14 04:35:46 PM
God, that is horrible. Those poor kids :(
 
2012-12-14 04:35:49 PM

eagles95: mjohnson71: eagles95: I was going to be the designated driver at a holiday part tomorrow night. Meh....may be sleeping over now. Need a drink from all this

I don't drink when I get home from work; but a nice stiff gin and tonic would be very nice while I watch my son play.

I make it a point to not drink around my kid. He wont be around tomorrow night to see how shiatfaced i get


I don't either. But I do have a bottle of Tanqueray 10 sitting in my drawer in my home office that was a gift from a client. Gonna break the seal on it tonight for just one drink.
 
2012-12-14 04:35:50 PM

The All-Powerful Atheismo: dukeblue219: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Don't most parents put the presents out on Christmas Eve?

Unless it's different in different regions of the country, no. Other than the occasional "back in my day" I've never heard of parents putting out presents only on Christmas Eve. Ours were always placed under the tree a while before Christmas. That's not counting the "Santa" presents that always showed up overnight.. just the ones from each family member to the others, plus gifts from other folks outside the family. Regardless, if nothing else there's a closet full of presents somewhere that these parents are going to have to deal with :(

weird. My dad always put them under the tree after I went to bed.

My mom never gave me presents because she converted to Judaism and I wasn't Jewish.


My wife's family does that. I had to explain to them that they were Godless Northeastern WASPs who didn't understand Christmas when they tried to push that "tradition" onto me. What farking good is a tree without presents under it?

Sadly, they have not converted to my way of thinking, so they still hide all the presents in another room until Christmas Eve and then put them under the tree. This prevents the kids from being able to shake their presents before Christmas, which is a time-honored tradition in my family. Not surprisingly, my in-laws are the least popular Christmas hosts.

Even my aunt in California who is married to a Jewish man puts the presents out early, and he agrees. The one time he made it to my in-laws he asked "Why would you have a tree without presents under it?"
 
2012-12-14 04:35:59 PM

Imperialism: Can someone link me to a stream of some good coverage of this? Just got home and I am NOT going to CNN for this.


Go to FOX News Channel, they'll bash Obama and politicize this at the same time.
 
2012-12-14 04:36:02 PM

USP .45: Red_Fox: I can't believe you NRA loving motherfarkers coming in here and bashing anyone speaking out against guns.

...today's not the day....my ass it's not. Today is precisely the day to start to change.

Yes, today is the day for one-sided debate. What a tolerate liberal you are.


Aren't they all?
 
2012-12-14 04:36:04 PM
CBS is reporting that the principal turned on the PA so the entire school would hear the gunshots and go into lockdown. That's a smart and noble last act.
 
2012-12-14 04:36:11 PM

Gonz: My oldest son's 7. That's where my brain breaks.

fark it, I need to bail from work and have a drink while I watch him play with his brother.


What happens when they play "guns"?
 
2012-12-14 04:36:25 PM

zedster: Problem is that 1 is simply not true and on top of that ignores the fact that both have conscription and thus a higher level of training on guns among their citizens.


training has nothing to do with gun crime.

I suspect our MASSIVE and often international gang population and incarceration rate has something to do with it.
 
2012-12-14 04:36:30 PM
Now Connecticut's homicide rate just went up a few percentage points for th year. Actuall, he killed just over half the number of people who get killed everyday here in the US which is 47 that last time I checked. I just can't get all choked up about this seeing that 47 people get murdered every single day in this country anyway.
 
2012-12-14 04:36:59 PM

utah dude: pro-gun. lifetime NRA. anti-223 anti-civillian-m4/ar-15/m16's. they're just toys designed for killing people.


Does that include the Ruger Ranch rifle and the Browing semi automatic deer rifles?
 
2012-12-14 04:37:03 PM

orclover: WhyteRaven74: JungleBoogie: y. We have a population that is more prone to internal violence than small, homogeneous groups of Israelis or Swedes, for a lot of reasons.

Check the rates of poverty in Sweden or Switzerland, then check the poverty rate in the US. You have most of your issue right there.

Getting mental health care is a tad easier as well. And by Tad I mean...farkING LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of us. So not so many crazy people just walking around with access to firearms.

Give 100 sane people a button that kills anyone they choose instantly and you will have 100 people alive at the end of each day (barring accidents). Add 1 mentally unbalanced person tot he mix and you will likely have at least 1 dead very soon.

ITS NOT THE farkING BUTTONS DOING THE KILLING.
/should I put that in bold?


The buttons may kill...but they sure as fark make it easy, don't they?

Maybe you shouldn't let crazy people near them.

Just don't let people get near the buttons without checking them out first. No loopholes - actual background checks on anyone who gets near them. If any of those people push the button and you didn't do what was legally required, you are an accessory to murder.
 
2012-12-14 04:37:11 PM
If I had to chose a solution, I wouldn't start with gun grabbing, but rather, approach it from the standpoint of what motivates these killings, and how do we link mental health professionals to law enforcement, and give them the heads up.

Toss in some stronger background checks to screen buy buyers for mental health issues, and I think you could catch quite a bit of this before it gets violent.

The question is, what do you do if you know someone is mentally unstable, and has access to weapons? Does the state/county/feds/city take them away permanently? Maybe temporarily, with a doctors approval and sign off from the police to get them back? Maybe just for X many number of years less you continue to present a clear and present danger? what happens if they miss a weapon in their search and it's used in a crime, are they liable?
 
2012-12-14 04:37:15 PM
We need better security at these schools.

you can't get rid of the guns.
 
2012-12-14 04:37:16 PM
My boss just informed me that a boy at his kid's middle school found a gun under a pillow at his grandparents' and shot and killed his friend two days ago (we live in the midwest).

With all of this today, I just...I can't.
 
2012-12-14 04:37:36 PM

letrole: letrole: But in nearly all cases, this lack of personal restraint comes from the breakdown of society

cameroncrazy1984: Or, you know, a lack of mental healthcare in this country.

zarberg: I wrote about just that after the Aurora shootings.



These fellows aren't psychotic. They aren't incapable of conforming to the norms of society. They don't pick flowers off the wallpaper or fling their own poo. They have rational thoughts and high levels of capacity for achievement.

They choose to be aberrations, simply because they can. It's now presented as a viable option, because society is unable to maintain strict compliance to absolute definitions of normal.

Are those Goth kids *crazy*? Are Hipsters with their funny hats and cringeworthy tattoos and big holes in their ears -- are they actual lunatics?

No. They're simply otherwise normal people who have chosen bizarre ways of expressing individuality, simply because they can.

And some of these people who would otherwise conform to an enforced norm are free to fantasise and obsess over the short-lived power and glory that comes with conducting a spree.


Goth kids? Really? I suppose mental illness isn't a problem because it's "just all in their heads" right?
 
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