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(Huffington Post)   In the latest salvo fired in the Republican War on Women, Governor Bobby Jindal suggests that birth control should be over the counter. Wait, what?   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 224
    More: Interesting, Bobby Jindal, human beings, Equal Pay Act, Paycheck Fairness Act, obstetricians, Priebus tried, shiny objects, Priebus  
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1538 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Dec 2012 at 1:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-14 01:43:23 PM
Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?
 
2012-12-14 01:43:41 PM

Nabb1: hillbillypharmacist: Nabb1: I don't know, but if the prevailing view in the medical community is that, from a medical standpoint, birth control should be available OTC, why force a woman to get a prescription? If a woman wants to talk to a doctor before taking OTC birth control, then good for her. No one should stop her. But why make her go through that step if it is not medically necessary?

There is not a bright line definition of 'medically necessary'. If a public health good can be accomplished by making it OTC, then it weighs against restricting it to a prescription. ACOG (and myself) think that, at the moment, we would be better served by making it OTC. However, if the public health good can be accomplished without it being OTC by using a single payer or other comprehensive system, then the medical reasons to keep it prescription only should prevail instead.

So, again, you would keep women from getting birth control OTC in order to advance your political agenda for a much larger nationalization of the health care industry.


How about reading what he wrote? I've bolded the important part for you.
 
2012-12-14 01:44:18 PM

Elandriel: Making an untrained woman personally in charge of ingesting medicine that has enormous hormonal change is hilariously irresponsible. People are still so damn hung up on this being about not getting pregnant, instead of the host of other effects BC pills have on a woman from cyst prevention to cycle regulation. Making it OTC divorces the process of consultation and medical expertise from it, and endangers women everywhere.


Buying birth control OTC in no way precludes a woman from consulting a doctor, it just removes that from being a requirement. If a woman is having no issues with an OTC med and wants to handle it herself, what's the problem?

I wonder how many people who want to "legalize drugs" (as I do) here on Fark are on the side of keeping some meds prescription-only. If you're prepared to let people alter their consciousness and potentially destroy their health and lives with one substance, you may as well extend the privilege to all of them.
 
2012-12-14 01:45:06 PM

Nabb1: So, again, you would keep women from getting birth control OTC in order to advance your political agenda for a much larger nationalization of the health care industry.


Wow. No.

Keeping it prescription only would not advance that cause. So that would be a silly thing to think.

Given a nationalization of the health care industry, the reason that BC should be OTC would be eliminated, and thus should revert to being prescription only.
 
2012-12-14 01:45:47 PM

what_now: I actually disagree. Hormonal birth control should be monitored by a doctor. There can serious emotional and physical side effects from using BC, and a woman should be able to have a doctor prescribe and monitor her use, until they find the correct dosage.

Now, we should have single payer healthcare and BC should be free, but someone needs to prescribe it.


There are serious side effects from a lot of OTC drugs. No one would prevent women from having a doctor monitor her use to find the correct dosage. The real question is can a regular person be tasked to make an appropriate and safe decision for themselves. For every single side effect of birth control, a woman can easily make the appropriate decision with no risk. The vast majority are fine "headache, whoopdy doo." Other times that appropriate decision will be to go see a doctor:

Abdominal pain (stomach pain)
Chest pain
Headaches (severe)
Eye problems (blurred vision)
Swelling and/or aching in the legs and thighs

Imagine two women, one bought BC OTC the other was required to get a prescription. Both get abdominal pain. They're in the exact same boat. Whether they got a prescription to start or not, they both will make the choice to see a doctor or not. The prescription didn't help either of them.
 
2012-12-14 01:46:01 PM

qorkfiend: How about reading what he wrote? I've bolded the important part for you.


Where's the fun in that?

/My bad.
 
2012-12-14 01:46:52 PM

Ambivalence: Very true. Hormones are not to be farked with. There are also more chances of misuse if it's OTC.


All of the other OTC drugs have zero chance of misuse or what?
 
2012-12-14 01:47:13 PM

SuperTramp: Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?


That's a stupid argument. I'm not planning to have kids, does that make my opinions about education moot? I'm not gay, so my feelings on marriage equality are null & void? I'm not rich, so my views on the top 3 brackets don't matter (actually, there are many people that believe this)? I live in America, so my feelings about her foreign policy don't matter?

// it comes into play when you tell a SPECIFIC person what to do with her uterus
// but I'll let you see for yourself how that applies to men and women
 
2012-12-14 01:47:17 PM

HeartBurnKid: They have their opinion, I have mine. I thought you Republican types were all about not blindly submitting to "experts"; what happened to that?


Try not to generalize and stereotype so much and the world may open up many other surprises for you.
 
2012-12-14 01:47:24 PM
I'm ok with this.
 
2012-12-14 01:47:34 PM

what_now: Nabb1: what_now: I actually disagree. Hormonal birth control should be monitored by a doctor. There can serious emotional and physical side effects from using BC, and a woman should be able to have a doctor prescribe and monitor her use, until they find the correct dosage.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists disagrees. Link

They're making the best of a bad situation. Women without health insurance should still have across to birth control, they say, and under the current situation, they are correct.

Lets solve the underlying problem of women who don't have access to health care.

I gave an uninsured friend some of my left over birth control pills and a few months later she walked into an emergeny room worried she was going to kill herself.

Now, she was in law school at the time...


Step 1: Restrict access to a drug.
Step 2: People get it through illegal means
Step 3: Some people experience side effects.

Your conclusion is that restriction protects people?
 
2012-12-14 01:47:53 PM
Just for some context - you can buy BC over the counter in Dubai, a country with a legal system based on Sharia law. It's also about a quarter the price as in the US, which should give you an idea how much we're being scammed by Big Pharma.
 
2012-12-14 01:48:58 PM

lennavan: what_now: I actually disagree. Hormonal birth control should be monitored by a doctor. There can serious emotional and physical side effects from using BC, and a woman should be able to have a doctor prescribe and monitor her use, until they find the correct dosage.

Now, we should have single payer healthcare and BC should be free, but someone needs to prescribe it.

There are serious side effects from a lot of OTC drugs. No one would prevent women from having a doctor monitor her use to find the correct dosage. The real question is can a regular person be tasked to make an appropriate and safe decision for themselves. For every single side effect of birth control, a woman can easily make the appropriate decision with no risk. The vast majority are fine "headache, whoopdy doo." Other times that appropriate decision will be to go see a doctor:

Abdominal pain (stomach pain)
Chest pain
Headaches (severe)
Eye problems (blurred vision)
Swelling and/or aching in the legs and thighs

Imagine two women, one bought BC OTC the other was required to get a prescription. Both get abdominal pain. They're in the exact same boat. Whether they got a prescription to start or not, they both will make the choice to see a doctor or not. The prescription didn't help either of them.


Now we get into the fun part; would the doctor's visit for what is now an optional medication be covered under insurance? I doubt it. So now we've got women paying full cost out-of-pocket for the medication, and full cost out-of-pocket for a doctor's visit about the medication.

I'm almost starting to think this is a ploy to get people to think that HBC is unsafe.
 
2012-12-14 01:49:21 PM
You so silly Jindal, you actually believed GOP arguments. Their real problem is sex itself, and this in no way punishes women for having it.
 
2012-12-14 01:49:37 PM

qorkfiend: I'm almost starting to think this is a ploy to get people to think that HBC is unsafe.


That's because you're a lunatic.
 
2012-12-14 01:50:03 PM

what_now: I actually disagree. Hormonal birth control should be monitored by a doctor. There can serious emotional and physical side effects from using BC, and a woman should be able to have a doctor prescribe and monitor her use, until they find the correct dosage.

Now, we should have single payer healthcare and BC should be free, but someone needs to prescribe it.


but at least let's give credit where credit is due.

This is a reasonable conservative solution -- instead of trying to deny medication to the public, make them more available even if more available is more costly to low income families and more likely to be misused by the public.

i'd rather that family planning and services to assist people in this endeavor be a public service (mostly free) but at least we are moving this from "you are a slut you pill popping slut" to "i'll never know and never should I care"
 
2012-12-14 01:50:18 PM

YixilTesiphon: qorkfiend: I'm almost starting to think this is a ploy to get people to think that HBC is unsafe.

That's because you're a lunatic.


Can't both be true?
 
2012-12-14 01:50:56 PM
Only if it has GIANT FRIGGEN WARNING LABELS.

Sorry. I proeabably can't comment *too* rationally on this issue-the idea of OTC birth control makes my brain go "BAD IDEA", largely due to having watched my fiance (well, girlfriend at the time) have a stroke due to a generic of Yaz at the age of 23. (And since it wasn't Yaz, but a GENERIC of Yaz, she wasn't really able to get in on the class action about it...)

Yes, she was the one-in-a-million statistic (and was taking it far before I knew her, for health reasons), but it's things like that which make me feel that there should be a doctor involved, if only to make sure people know the risks and can be more closely monitored. However, I recognize this is likely strongly colored by my own personal experiences.

I'd also like to see the other forms of female birth control and hormone regulation be discussed more in the US. The birth control pill isn't the *only* one.

/She's totally fine now, thankfully.
 
2012-12-14 01:52:14 PM

sweetmelissa31: Gulper Eel: They've got enough on their plate without having to take a day off to sit in a doctor's office to get a ten-minute once-over and the almighty prescription.

It is quite annoying to have to go to the gynecologist for my fix every time I want to have sex.


Ha, like women ever want to have sex.

/married
//so lonely :(
 
2012-12-14 01:52:27 PM
let the Democrats demagogue the contraceptives issue and pretend, during debates about health-care insurance, that Republicans are somehow against birth control.

SOMEHOW
 
2012-12-14 01:53:29 PM
This isnt a surprise. Jindal has been calling for the GOP to back off of their anti-woman rhetoric since they got clobbered in the last election.
 
2012-12-14 01:56:50 PM
Bobby can try to set himself for a presidential all he wants but I doubt people will forget this:

wonkroom.thinkprogress.org

$220 Million down the toilet because he refused to believe those elitist scientists.
 
2012-12-14 01:57:42 PM

Nabb1: HeartBurnKid: They have their opinion, I have mine. I thought you Republican types were all about not blindly submitting to "experts"; what happened to that?

Try not to generalize and stereotype so much and the world may open up many other surprises for you.


Says the guy who's been going through this whole thread accusing everybody else of being hyper-partisan authoritarians.
 
2012-12-14 01:58:23 PM

Nabb1: what_now: Nabb1: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Nabb1: The objections to this seem more political than scientific, to me, anyway.

Having seen the tribulations of what my various female friends have gone through to find the correct HBC, I'm firmly in the camp of having it be RX only (through PP or some gyn or whatever).

As other said, it should be a no-copay covered medication and we should have single payer anyway, but yeah, I really think that its a complex enough issue with enough patient education and variance needed that a Doc should be involved.

I'm sorry, is there anything that would prohibit a woman from speaking to her doctor about all this without the necessity of needing a prescription for the actual medication?

Yes. If she doesn't have a doctor because she can't afford healh insurance.

And if she can't afford health insurance, then she can't get prescription birth control. Sudafed kills more people than birth control, and that's OTC. Sort of. Stupid tweakers. (Sudafed causes atrial fibrillation in some people.) I'm not going to presume to second guess the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists on this. If they think it's safe enough to go forward with it, I say go. I had the same concerns as you until very recently.


Maybe Sudafed kills more people than OBC because it's available OTC.
 
2012-12-14 01:59:17 PM

Corvus: $220 Million down the toilet because he refused to believe those elitist scientists.


Stimulus!
 
2012-12-14 01:59:37 PM
As a guy. you can buy condoms over the counter, you can buy them in bathrooms, you can get them free from lots of places.

But when it's women contraception it's OMG!!! We have to make sure people can't just buy them and we have to make sure religious groups aren't offended.

It's double standard BS.
 
2012-12-14 01:59:53 PM

urbangirl: Maybe Sudafed kills more people than OBC because it's available OTC.


I think he was talking about people making meth.
 
2012-12-14 02:01:46 PM

qorkfiend: Now we get into the fun part; would the doctor's visit for what is now an optional medication be covered under insurance? I doubt it.


Of course it would. Pap-smears and general check-ups wouldn't suddenly become unnecessary. During your general check-up, you can ask about a whole slew of things including OTC medicines and insurance will still cover it.

I'm honestly surprised to see the ACOG support BC being OTC. I always viewed it as they hold BC over your head because otherwise you wouldn't go in for annual exams. We'd probably have a much healthier population if we required regular check-ups before letting you have painkillers like aspirin/ibuprofen too.
 
2012-12-14 02:03:28 PM

Corvus: As a guy. you can buy condoms over the counter, you can buy them in bathrooms, you can get them free from lots of places.

But when it's women contraception it's OMG!!! We have to make sure people can't just buy them and we have to make sure religious groups aren't offended.

It's double standard BS.


The double standard is even worse when you realize men can buy jock straps over the counter!
 
2012-12-14 02:03:43 PM

lennavan: qorkfiend: Now we get into the fun part; would the doctor's visit for what is now an optional medication be covered under insurance? I doubt it.

Of course it would. Pap-smears and general check-ups wouldn't suddenly become unnecessary. During your general check-up, you can ask about a whole slew of things including OTC medicines and insurance will still cover it.

I'm honestly surprised to see the ACOG support BC being OTC. I always viewed it as they hold BC over your head because otherwise you wouldn't go in for annual exams. We'd probably have a much healthier population if we required regular check-ups before letting you have painkillers like aspirin/ibuprofen too.


Alright, that makes sense. Silly me.
 
2012-12-14 02:04:58 PM
SuperTramp: Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?

Dr Dreidel: That's a stupid argument.


Did I ask you? I asked Nabb1 because he seems REALLY invested in this issue.
 
2012-12-14 02:06:34 PM
This will be the new norm from the GOP in the not too distant future. There will also be an outreach and amnesty program for Hispanics supported by the GOP.
 
2012-12-14 02:07:12 PM

Gulper Eel: sweetmelissa31: Is this a ploy to get people to pay more out of pocket for birth control?

The current state of affairs is a ploy to force women to pay for unnecessary doctor's visits.

Some of the really greedy doctors will add a pelvic exam to the bill regardless of its necessity, even though it's irrelevant to the issue of birth control.

Imagine if a male farker had to get a prostate exam and erectile function test in order to get a prescription for condoms.

Holding women's health hostage to intrusive medical procedures is okay long as it's not Republicans doing it, right?


Or, you know, women can actually have very bad and dramatic reactions to hormones and it's a good idea to have a doctor make sure you don't end up sicker than a dog.

But yeah. It's about money.

/I'm sure a lot of doctors are scamming people--hell, my doctor outright told me at one point that prescribing medications for ear infections is basically just so people feel like they're getting their money's worth--but this is not one of those times. Hormones are really, really bad things to fark up.
 
2012-12-14 02:07:18 PM

SuperTramp: SuperTramp: Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?

Dr Dreidel: That's a stupid argument.


Did I ask you? I asked Nabb1 because he seems REALLY invested in this issue.


So? If his lack of a uterus invalidates his opinion, then so does mine. I ain't having that.

// this is the millenium of Aftermath, so give me one more platinum plaque and fark that...
 
2012-12-14 02:08:32 PM
Bobby has been working hard since election day to position himself for 2016 as "the reasonable Republican".
 
2012-12-14 02:09:18 PM

HeartBurnKid: Nabb1: HeartBurnKid: They have their opinion, I have mine. I thought you Republican types were all about not blindly submitting to "experts"; what happened to that?

Try not to generalize and stereotype so much and the world may open up many other surprises for you.

Says the guy who's been going through this whole thread accusing everybody else of being hyper-partisan authoritarians.


Yeah, that made me do a double-take also. Has he even been reading his own posts?
 
2012-12-14 02:09:53 PM

Corvus: Bobby can try to set himself for a presidential all he wants but I doubt people will forget this:

[wonkroom.thinkprogress.org image 825x619]

$220 Million down the toilet because he refused to believe those elitist scientists.


It wa$n't that he didn't believe the $cienti$t$, it wa$ ju$t that hi$ advi$or$ from the private $ector made a much $tronger argument.
 
2012-12-14 02:11:24 PM

Corvus: As a guy. you can buy condoms over the counter, you can buy them in bathrooms, you can get them free from lots of places.

But when it's women contraception it's OMG!!! We have to make sure people can't just buy them and we have to make sure religious groups aren't offended.

It's double standard BS.


You can buy condoms OTC precisely because they don't have anywhere near the potential long-term serious consequences of OBC. I can't believe you don't see this. As someone said earlier, the solution is to make OBC cheap/free and easy to get, not make it OTC. Guess who already does that? Planned Parenthood. Every day.
 
2012-12-14 02:11:58 PM

Citrate1007: Corvus: Bobby can try to set himself for a presidential all he wants but I doubt people will forget this:

[wonkroom.thinkprogress.org image 825x619]

$220 Million down the toilet because he refused to believe those elitist scientists.

It wa$n't that he didn't believe the $cienti$t$, it wa$ ju$t that hi$ advi$or$ from the private $ector made a much $tronger argument.


Probably along the lines of "Just think; when the water comes up like the scientists say, we'll have to buy new equipment to replace the equipment we just lost. That's jobs, Governor."
 
2012-12-14 02:13:28 PM

urbangirl: As someone said earlier, the solution is to make OBC cheap/free and easy to get, not make it OTC. Guess who already does that? Planned Parenthood. Every day.


look at you, wanting to control women for political reasons and furthermore
 
2012-12-14 02:16:10 PM

urbangirl: You can buy condoms OTC precisely because they don't have anywhere near the potential long-term serious consequences of OBC


What are the potential long-term serious consequences of BC?
 
2012-12-14 02:17:51 PM

SuperTramp: SuperTramp: Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?

Dr Dreidel: That's a stupid argument.


Did I ask you? I asked Nabb1 because he seems REALLY invested in this issue.


He's really invested because it's a perfect solution for conservatives. They get to make it look like they're pro-women (by increasing access to contraceptives and simultaneously exposing women as a whole to greater risk), it pushes government out of the way to allow every woman to be her own doctor (as wonderful and magical as that sounds), and it accomplishes their number one policy directive: don't do anything to piss off the religious assholes that make up their base. They get to polish their image while continuing to cater to the most backward and dangerous parts of the electorate. It would be smart if it wasn't so brazenly transparent.
 
2012-12-14 02:19:20 PM
Dr Dreidel:

So? If his lack of a uterus invalidates his opinion, then so does mine. I ain't having that.


WHY DOES HE HAVE SUCH A STRONG OPINION ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL FOR WOMEN?

// this is the millenium of Aftermath, so give me one more platinum plaque and fark that...

WTF?
 
2012-12-14 02:19:31 PM
BCP are hormones; they shouldn't be dispensed without care to the woman's health. The annual visit to the cooter dr. is to ensure nothing is amiss down there. BCP being prescription isn't some rightwing nutjob conspiracy to make access to BCP harder; it is a sound medical practice.
 
2012-12-14 02:20:03 PM

lennavan: urbangirl: You can buy condoms OTC precisely because they don't have anywhere near the potential long-term serious consequences of OBC

What are the potential long-term serious consequences of BC?


There's a link provided in this very thread.
 
2012-12-14 02:21:13 PM
HBC should be prescription only. Too many idjits take OTC pills as though they were nothing; HBC has significant issues, ranging from DVT dangers to emotional issues.

Also - from the perspective of a transwoman, far too many people can't tell the difference between progesterone and estrogen. And progesterone is f*cking dangerous for those that have no natural source of it.
 
2012-12-14 02:22:01 PM
un4gvn666

He's really invested because it's a perfect solution for conservatives. They get to make it look like they're pro-women (by increasing access to contraceptives and simultaneously exposing women as a whole to greater risk), it pushes government out of the way to allow every woman to be her own doctor (as wonderful and magical as that sounds), and it accomplishes their number one policy directive: don't do anything to piss off the religious assholes that make up their base. They get to polish their image while continuing to cater to the most backward and dangerous parts of the electorate. It would be smart if it wasn't so brazenly transparent.


Thank you!!
 
2012-12-14 02:23:13 PM

jjorsett: I wonder how many people who want to "legalize drugs" (as I do) here on Fark are on the side of keeping some meds prescription-only. If you're prepared to let people alter their consciousness and potentially destroy their health and lives with one substance, you may as well extend the privilege to all of them.


No. There are very good reasons to keep some medications prescription only, even if you want recreational drugs to be legal (as I do). We are already seeing issues with bacterial infections developing resistance to antibiotics, creating MRSA, residtant strains of Gonorrhea, etc.

During the 2001-2002 Anthrax scares, every idiot under the sun decided they needed Cipro, just in case Truth or Consequences, NM was going to be terrorized. I don't particularly care if some dude develops a tolerance for meth or adderall as it doesn't really do me any harm. That dude running around spewing a super bug because he takes Zeftera every time he gets the sniffles, or thinks that Cipro will clear up his athlete's foot can cause me harm.
 
2012-12-14 02:23:35 PM

SuperTramp: WHY DOES HE HAVE SUCH A STRONG OPINION ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL FOR WOMEN?


Don't know and don't really care. I have a strong opinion about BC/abortion as well, but I am biologically male since birth with a penis to show for it - WAT DO?

// you're saying his opinion is invalid because he lacks a functioning uterus AND is on the "wrong" side of the debate?

SuperTramp: // this is the millenium of Aftermath, so give me one more platinum plaque and fark that...

WTF?


Forgot About Dre (NSFW lyrics)
 
2012-12-14 02:23:38 PM

un4gvn666: SuperTramp: SuperTramp: Hey Nabb1, could you hand the microphone to your uterus for a minute?

Dr Dreidel: That's a stupid argument.


Did I ask you? I asked Nabb1 because he seems REALLY invested in this issue.

He's really invested because it's a perfect solution for conservatives. They get to make it look like they're pro-women (by increasing access to contraceptives and simultaneously exposing women as a whole to greater risk), it pushes government out of the way to allow every woman to be her own doctor (as wonderful and magical as that sounds), and it accomplishes their number one policy directive: don't do anything to piss off the religious assholes that make up their base. They get to polish their image while continuing to cater to the most backward and dangerous parts of the electorate. It would be smart if it wasn't so brazenly transparent.


It's still pretty smart, as the people he's talking to don't care about the transparency. Jindal's position is the perfect line to walk on the moderate right side of the issue; personal responsibility, no government interference with doctors, no interference from pharmacists, access to birth control, and as you've pointed out, completely avoids the religious aspect of the debate. All of the downsides - cost and potential health risks - are already secondary in Republican thinking.
 
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