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(Huffington Post)   Walmart CEO says that Walmart does pay a living wage. And by 'living wage' he means 'enough money for a cardboard box and a can of Alpo'   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 269
    More: Unlikely, CEO, Mario Draghi, U.S. Federal Reserve, Melinda Gates, bulk box, Politics of Italy, average wage, Communist Party of China  
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2552 clicks; posted to Business » on 14 Dec 2012 at 9:39 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-14 05:08:46 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: theurge14: So you've never heard of Whole Foods?

Your example proves my point. How many U.S. employees does Whole Foods have compared to Walmart? And the 2 don't exactly compete for the same market.


Um, Aldi's does though.

/and the only reason I don't shop Trader Joe's more is because the parking lot is always too full to find a space
 
2012-12-14 05:24:32 PM  
HUSH NOW! If we upset the Job Creator, he'll take his Job Creation Gland and go home to the free market utopia of Somalia to lift Somali children to the moon using only bootstraps.
 
2012-12-14 05:48:42 PM  

K.B.O. Winston: Um, Aldi's does though.


Kind of. Aldi's is small format, has limited selection, and almost exclusively sells its private label brands, and I think they are grocery only. Do Aldi's employees make significantly more money? I went to an Aldi's once and they wanted a quarter to use a shopping cart, and then they wanted me to pay for grocery bags.

Here they are extolling the benefits of not having to hire people.

As an ALDI shopper, you bag your own purchases, eliminating the expense of baggers. With no baggers to pay, we can run each checkout with one employee instead of two. You not only save-you control the weight and content of each bag.
 
2012-12-14 05:57:49 PM  

slayer199: An honest answer to that question is yes, I think most people of average intelligence can do it if given a fair opportunity.


And the half that are below average intelligence?
 
2012-12-14 06:05:48 PM  

rugman11: My question is how do you define "living wage"? I mean this in all seriousness. Should a living wage allow a person to buy a house? To rent on their own? To support themselves only or to support a spouse or raise a family too?


In my perfect world, living wage is enough for one person to have an apartment by themselves, enough money for food and utilities, plus enough extra for one dependent.
The young and dependentless can use the extra to better themselves through education, training, etc, able to afford a modest house, or be happy knowing they won't starve and be good little consumers.
The older and between jobs crowds have should enough of a cushion that their children won't starve in the meantime even if both parents have to work at minimum wage.
Aid will still be available for those who need it, but there will be so many less who do.

Anyone willing to scrounge and save, pack their apartments with roomates, eat ramen every day, etc, will still come out ahead, but it should not be a necessity for anyone willing to put in 40 hours of work.
 
2012-12-14 06:29:58 PM  

kregh99: I am all for being paid a living wage, but not for doing a job that requires almost zero in the way of skills. Those jobs should pay shiat wages. shiat wages fuels the desire to not work shiat jobs.

Stay in school, kids. Stay in school.


On the other side of the coin, people really shouldn't expect much from customer service from someone who can't even afford basic healthcare. Or for the stores to be properly cleaned, or anything that would realistically require Wal-mart and others to pay more money. In any case this is NOT a sustainable work force, and unskilled or not they are necessary. So don't be a jerk and tip your waiting person properly, and don't act like a prima donna and complain that they should have more registers open. Who knows, maybe there will be enough people who don't know better to sustain such a work force but I'm not so sure. Hell, I hope not honestly.

Which brings me to education, its obviously important but it isn't like our education system isn't failing us too or built upon a house of cards considering all those who are in serious debt as a result. That is for another thread though I guess.
 
2012-12-14 06:31:39 PM  

liam76: MugzyBrown: The term living wage is idiotic.

You can live off $6/hr working only 40 hours a week unless you make stupid life decisions... yes even in the city.

Like getting sick.

Like having to help a sick family member.

Like being the victim of a crime.

Etc.


Indeed. Wal-Mart will be all too happy to cut your hours until you're forced to quit if something bad like that happens to you.
 
2012-12-14 07:17:54 PM  
I was thinking on the issue further and I really don't think its a sustainable workforce. Those of you saying that they should simply get another job don't seem to realize that the low income work force is growing is already stands at 23.8 percent of the overall work force. That is a lot of people who can't afford basic healthcare, including mental healthcare. That does not bode well for our society on a whole.
 
2012-12-14 07:21:10 PM  

bbfreak: I was thinking on the issue further and I really don't think its a sustainable workforce. Those of you saying that they should simply get another job don't seem to realize that the low income work force is growing is already stands at 23.8 percent of the overall work force. That is a lot of people who can't afford basic healthcare, including mental healthcare. That does not bode well for our society on a whole.


Whoops, my bad. Wrong number, the low income work force stands at 28 percent.
 
2012-12-14 07:27:26 PM  

bbfreak: I was thinking on the issue further and I really don't think its a sustainable workforce. Those of you saying that they should simply get another job don't seem to realize that the low income work force is growing is already stands at 23.8 percent of the overall work force. That is a lot of people who can't afford basic healthcare, including mental healthcare. That does not bode well for our society on a whole.


There are people that think Wal-Mart should only employ teenagers in need of gas money and everyone else who works there any older, for any other reason, made a conscious choice to ruin their own lives and should been punished for it forever.
If you're not willing (or able) to share an apartment with five other people, eat ramen every day, find the time for multiple jobs and/or education, and ever get sick, have an accident, or any costly mishap whatsoever, you obviously don't want to succeed and should be happy with your lot.
 
2012-12-14 09:15:50 PM  

Kimothy: Maybe 10 bucks an hour is a living wage in Benton, Arkansas, but in the rest of the US, that's a wage for part-time high school students.


Actually, 10 bucks an hour on a 40-hour work week is a fine starting wage. Just don't tell me that:

1.) 10 bucks an hour is a fine wage for someone with a college degree and two years experience, and whom you expect to work far more than 40 hours a week for no extra pay.
2.) 10 bucks an hour on a 24-hour work week is a living wage.
 
2012-12-14 09:21:22 PM  
Do people even read the articles before writing headlines? He said they pay people competitive wages, not living wages. How did this troll-tastic headline get green lit?
 
2012-12-14 09:26:34 PM  
Walmart CEO Pay: More in an Hour Than Workers Get All Year?
By Ed Smith's math, the CEO of Walmart earns more in an hour than his employees will earn in a year. Smith, an alderman in Chicago, presented posters at a city council meeting showing that Walmart CEO Michael Duke's $35 million salary, when converted to an hourly wage, worked out to $16,826.92. By comparison, at a Walmart store planned for the Windy City's Pullman neighborhood, new employees to be paid $8.75 an hour would gross $13,650 a year. Smith's numbers could be a bit off.
Link
 
2012-12-14 09:55:23 PM  

cig-mkr: Smith's numbers could be a bit off.

Smith's numbers could be a bit off. Equilar, an executive compensation research firm, calculates that Duke earned just south of $20 million in 2009 and $28 million in 2008, not counting millions of dollars in potential performance awards.


Okay, so two hours. Is that the magical line where it all becomes okay to make what your employees make in a year?
 
2012-12-14 10:19:24 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: That's right. People are tools without intrinsic value, as I said. Do you care when you throw away a hammer? Of course not. Should you care if one of you human tools dies because they weren't useful enough? Certainly not. If you intervene it might have a bad effect on the other human tools. We need to stop being concerned about the basic needs of human tools.

I truly hope your employer has valued you properly and that you aren't destroying this nation by getting a "hand out" from them because they have overvalued you or considered you as anything worthy of more concern than an office chair.


You're adding emotion into an argument of numbers, facts and analysis.

All well and good for you but you should probably leave the adults alone to talk about grownup things.
 
2012-12-14 10:26:36 PM  

o5iiawah: You're adding emotion into an argument of numbers, facts and analysis.

All well and good for you but you should probably leave the adults alone to talk about grownup things.


Your insult was just bursting full of facts and numbers.
 
2012-12-14 10:30:51 PM  

FarkedOver: Now let's flip the script. Would employees make more than $0 without owners and corporate officers??

Why YES! YES THEY WOULD!! Imagine that! A worker does not need an owner!! HOLY SHIAT! What a revelation!


In the absence of a location which was scouted by a surveyor and marketing team, a building which was erected from profits earned by other stores, inventory which was trucked in via vehicles owned by the company and a management team to organize the operation, please explain how a person standing in a vacant lot saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart" can earn a wage.

nekulor: I can barely support me in school on that, let alone a family.


So you should probably get a better job before starting a family.

Sergeant Grumbles: There are people that think Wal-Mart should only employ teenagers in need of gas money and everyone else who works there any older, for any other reason, made a conscious choice to ruin their own lives and should been punished for it forever.


No, we just realize that if a person wants a house in the burbs, a couple of cars, 4 happy, healthy kids with college paid for, a vacation once in a while and top-notch healthcare, they probably arent going to get it at wal-mart and that if they seek those things, they should understand that it probably comes with learning skills in the marketplace. Wipe away your tears and lets talk economics. Sorry i makes you cry but this is the real world. Boo Hoo.
 
2012-12-14 10:31:45 PM  
A&P was hit by trustbusting when they controlled a far far smaller percentage of the American economy than Walmart.
 
2012-12-14 10:36:17 PM  

o5iiawah: FarkedOver: Now let's flip the script. Would employees make more than $0 without owners and corporate officers??

Why YES! YES THEY WOULD!! Imagine that! A worker does not need an owner!! HOLY SHIAT! What a revelation!

In the absence of a location which was scouted by a surveyor and marketing team, a building which was erected from profits earned by other stores, inventory which was trucked in via vehicles owned by the company and a management team to organize the operation, please explain how a person standing in a vacant lot saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart" can earn a wage.

nekulor: I can barely support me in school on that, let alone a family.

So you should probably get a better job before starting a family.

Sergeant Grumbles: There are people that think Wal-Mart should only employ teenagers in need of gas money and everyone else who works there any older, for any other reason, made a conscious choice to ruin their own lives and should been punished for it forever.

No, we just realize that if a person wants a house in the burbs, a couple of cars, 4 happy, healthy kids with college paid for, a vacation once in a while and top-notch healthcare, they probably arent going to get it at wal-mart and that if they seek those things, they should understand that it probably comes with learning skills in the marketplace. Wipe away your tears and lets talk economics. Sorry i makes you cry but this is the real world. Boo Hoo.
fark YOU POORS I GOT MINE


Yes, sweetie, go ahead and hate them. They're not really people, after all. If they were PEOPLE, why they'd be rich! They were all born smart enough to be doctors, they just preferred to be poor. Evidence of their non-humanity, I completely agree, just pure laziness. Can't we sell them somewhere or something? I mean REALLY, they have a lot of nerve.
 
2012-12-14 10:40:17 PM  

ghare: fark YOU POORS I GOT MINE

Yes, sweetie, go ahead and hate them. They're not really people, after all. If they were PEOPLE, why they'd be rich! They were all born smart enough to be doctors, they just preferred to be poor. Evidence of their non-humanity, I completely agree, just pure laziness. Can't we sell them somewhere or something? I mean REALLY, they have a lot of nerve.


One doesn't need to be born with the intelligence of a doctor to become a successful, productive member of society.

If you have any actual facts or arguments to put forth, I'll be happy to debate them with you. Otherwise, your purely emotional, butthurt rant adds nothing to the conversation and pushes this 'Fark you, I've got mine" narrative which isn't true in the slightest.

It is More like "I wasn't born with any either, I did X, Y, and Z and got some, why cant you?"
 
2012-12-14 11:05:40 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: slayer199: Sergeant Grumbles: And no one with kids ever loses their good job and still has to make ends meet.

Yes about 18 years ago, I had to make a career change and I had no idea what I was going to do. I worked 2 jobs (bartending and pizza delivery) and averaged about 70 hours a week. I rented a house with a roommate and was paying child support while I interviewed for a number of tech-based jobs. I did that for 2 years. Once I got my first IT job (at $12/hr), I kept moving up...learning new skills, changing jobs fairly frequently, and finishing my college degree.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it damn hard? Yes. Point is that there are many people that are willing to settle....and way too many people willing to let people settle. As for those with lesser IQs or physical ailments, we already have government programs designed to help them. For those that aren't willing to do what's necessary to get ahead...that's not my problem. Yes, I got mine so screw them...because I farking earned it.

Tell, us do you spit on the guy who delivers your Pizza so he knows what a loser you think he is? Do you tell all the people at the stores you shop at how superior you are and what pathetic scum they are.? It seems it's the responsibility of an elite like you to make sure that the low lifes who labor to serve your needs know how unworthy they are.


People do this. I worked for a department store, the #2 worst employer in the nation, for 5 years.
 
2012-12-14 11:12:47 PM  

o5iiawah: Wipe away your tears and lets talk economics.


I'm not talking economics with anyone who thinks hiring someone new lowers the wages of everyone else. If I'm crying, it's out of pity.
 
2012-12-15 12:14:15 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: cig-mkr: Smith's numbers could be a bit off.

Smith's numbers could be a bit off. Equilar, an executive compensation research firm, calculates that Duke earned just south of $20 million in 2009 and $28 million in 2008, not counting millions of dollars in potential performance awards.

Okay, so two hours. Is that the magical line where it all becomes okay to make what your employees make in a year?


I think about two and a half hours would be about right.
 
2012-12-15 12:16:09 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: And the half that are below average intelligence?


Are you implying that people of less than average intellience, can't learn a trade that pays more than minimum wage? So by your estimation, we need to support half the population because in your mind they're unable to support themselves.
 
2012-12-15 12:19:49 AM  

ltdanman44: I can agree with some of your statement. You talk about fair opportunity and most people if given an opportunity would climb out of being poor. I would agree. The problem nowadays is that opportunity is not there or available at all. Those who would excel and thrive are met with closed doors instead of open ones. What then I ask?

The problem with your thinking is that in your mind you say "Since I've made it, so can you! You just have to work at it! Look at me! I am living proof!" There are some people who have worked at it most of lives with nothing to show for it, but I'm pretty sure you would think they didn't try hard enough and that was the reason for their failures in life.


Actually, there are some people that make decisions that hinder them. I think it's more a mindset...maybe life skills that they don't know or understand. While you may see a closed door, I find an opportunity elsewhere. I believe government is ill-equipped to provide opportunity which is the issue I've been arguing in this thread.
 
2012-12-15 12:22:04 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: What strawman? The minimum wage is a "hand out" that's destroying the country, right?


Labeling minimum wage a "living wage" is destroying the country. You've completely eliminated personal responsibility from the equation and basically told people, "You haven't earned it with your meager skills and you don't need to learn new skills or education, but we're going to throw more money at you because you need money to live on."
 
2012-12-15 12:26:19 AM  
O5iiawah is crushing the debate in this thread, cheers.
 
2012-12-15 12:53:11 AM  

slayer199: Are you implying that people of less than average intellience, can't learn a trade that pays more than minimum wage? So by your estimation, we need to support half the population because in your mind they're unable to support themselves.


Mighty fine strawman. Almost distracted me from those moving goalposts.

slayer199: An honest answer to that question is yes, I think most people of average intelligence can do it if given a fair opportunity.


Your words. Answer the question instead of making up fabricating my position.
 
2012-12-15 01:01:45 AM  

slayer199: You've completely eliminated personal responsibility from the equation and basically told people, "You haven't earned it with your meager skills and you don't need to learn new skills or education, but we're going to throw more money at you because you need money to live on."


You've completely eliminated personal responsibility from the equation by allowing work to pay too little to live on. With neither the means nor ability to move up, anyone of any intelligence rightly stops giving a fark. And yet blowhards troll in and tell people to demean themselves, starve themselves, give every moment of their time to some employer, start a business with the money they don't have, get an education with the money they don't have.
If you want people to take responsibility, you have to give them a reasonable way to do so. Telling people it's possible for someone of average intelligence if they make all the right choices, make no mistakes, and stay healthy long enough just isn't good enough. For the richest country in the world, it's appalling.
 
2012-12-15 01:33:30 AM  

max_pooper: Giltric: Instead of using some arbitrary term like living wage why doesn;t anyone calculate what living expenses should be......


Should Walmart be paying a low skilled laborer enough money to buy a 300k$ house on a 30 year mortgage?

In all honesty shouldn't someone be looking for a job that pays them enough to buy that 300k house instead of expecting their walmart job to bump them up to that level?

How many chigger bites did you get building that strawman?


Give him a break, man. There are Wal-Mart stores in parts of the country where $300k gets you a 120-year-old 2-bedroom semi-detached fixer-upper with severe water damage and termites in gang territory, too.
 
2012-12-15 02:39:16 AM  
People in this thread keep yammering on about how the poor cant afford to get an education. Have you ever heard of jucos? Have you ever heard of student loans?
 
2012-12-15 04:25:31 AM  
Based on a 40-hour work week, Mr Duke made about $8990.00 per hour. Seriously, Mr Duke, do you think 1/1000 of your "wage" is livable? And you would be paying cost-share on benefits like insurance, instead of having them fully paid (with no deductibles or copays) by the company. And you would have to pay for your own car, insurance, bike, bus fare, work shoes, vacation destination, country club membership (NO golfing on company time) and so on. [snark] Yes, you are worth 1000 of those "associates" that you value and admire so much. You ARE better than the 1%, you are the 0.1%! [/snark]
 
2012-12-15 04:27:32 AM  
Oh, and I almost forgot: DUKE SUCKS!

/I bleed Oregon green with a touch of Carolina Blue
 
2012-12-15 04:50:01 AM  
It would be beneficial if all upper management (as part if their initiation into a company) had to work at the lowest paid position for a month or two. Get in the trenches and know what they are expecting of their rank and file. See what it is like when they continuously cut payroll hours while raising customer service expectations/requirements and find ways to make it impossible for their staff to meet goals/make bonuses. To see how their lowest paid is treated by the customers who are also paying the price for those decisions.

There is a real problem when larger retail stores are starting assistant managers at $8.75 an hour...when the same position 10 years ago started at $12+.

Most of those making the decisions aren't making those decisions with a basis in real working experience (whether in their own company or prior work).

Also, those saying to get another job or do something to better yourself have obviously not had to do so in recent years. It is a jungle out there for so-called "non-skilled" workers...competing against those with a higher skill set for the same low wage position has killed any bargaining position (i.e. experience in the field) that once existed.
 
2012-12-15 07:31:36 AM  

Giltric: liam76: You "earned it" by being lucky. Lucky not to have the things I mentioned above

Why is he lucky? Why arent those people unlucky?

Are you trying to claim that paying child support, being sole caretaker and getting cancer all at the same time is the norm?


All the same time, no. But one of those, pretty common.

I also like how you ignored the bit about his parents, and the fact that things like paying for college and getting jobs after college that make paying it off are much harder to come by now.


DrewCurtisJr: liam76: Is anyone talking about outlawing them?

No. But if you say just give everyone a raise and it causes prices to rise I think it's been established that if people can find lower prices elsewhere they will spend there money there, because they just can't help being exploited by being offered rock bottom prices.

So it's not so simple


If everyone was paid more (including their competition) that effect on their prices wouldn't matter.
 
2012-12-15 08:24:22 AM  
What the hell is wrong with people. Walmart pays the minimum wage or higher. Most of the time it's higher.

I've worked a lot of crappy, minimum wage job. Walmart is better than most.
 
2012-12-15 08:31:33 AM  
How can anyone argue for the mega corporations in situations like this and keep a straight face? Do you really believe that the majority of the wealth in this country should be in the hands of very few people? Or, are you still following that carrot on a stick that is the American Dream, thinking one day you will be at the top? No matter how menial you feel their job is, with no one to run the registers or stock the shelves Walmart doesn't make a dime. Therefore, the people who keep the money flowing should get a fair share of the profits, at least enough to live without government assistance and to be able to afford healthcare. America will continue it's downward spiral until we either fix this problem or the poor finally have enough and start a revolution. I doubt the people who are defending the corporations now will be singing the same tune if the poor do rise up against the rich.
 
2012-12-15 09:31:19 AM  

Howlin Mad Murphy: How can anyone argue for the mega corporations in situations like this and keep a straight face? Do you really believe that the majority of the wealth in this country should be in the hands of very few people? Or, are you still following that carrot on a stick that is the American Dream, thinking one day you will be at the top? No matter how menial you feel their job is, with no one to run the registers or stock the shelves Walmart doesn't make a dime. Therefore, the people who keep the money flowing should get a fair share of the profits, at least enough to live without government assistance and to be able to afford healthcare. America will continue it's downward spiral until we either fix this problem or the poor finally have enough and start a revolution. I doubt the people who are defending the corporations now will be singing the same tune if the poor do rise up against the rich are willing to stop shopping on price alone and be more intelligent consumers.



Hyperbolic much? It isn't that complicated
 
2012-12-15 09:55:21 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: o5iiawah: Wipe away your tears and lets talk economics.

I'm not talking economics with anyone who thinks hiring someone new lowers the wages of everyone else. If I'm crying, it's out of pity.


Again, you're disagreeing and pouting but you cant break the argument.


To further my case, unions work the same way. They inflate the wages of the shop such that $25/hr employees are brought up to $30 in order to keep the doors open. if the shop can afford to pay $300/hr in labor rate and there's 10 employees, the union will demand that all earn an equal wage, thus depressing the wages of those who might otherwise be worth $33/hr. If advancements in technology or a new customer comes on board and it warrants the hiring of an apprentice at $20/hr, the shop owner will not be able to bring that employee on because they cant produce the requisite productivity to meet the wage floor demands of the union.

This means another person on unemployment who doesn't gain skills thanks to an artificial wage floor. Try to debate this without being petulant, cynical or emotional. This should be good.
 
2012-12-15 10:14:25 AM  

Generation_D: Repub


Didn't Hilary Clinton work there in a high-ranking position as they were outsourcing? Didn't the Clintons then make it easier to buy cheap slave-created shiat from China once in office?
 
2012-12-15 10:20:51 AM  

liam76: If everyone was paid more (including their competition) that effect on their prices wouldn't matter.


You think online retailers have the same kinds of staffing costs as traditional retailers?
 
2012-12-15 10:46:44 AM  

SDRR:


Hyperbolic much? It isn't that complicated


Although it may seem unrealistic, the chances of violent revolution are very real. In my opinion revolution is more realistic than people suddenly shopping at more expensive retailers. Especially when you consider that most Americans are making so little that they shop at places like Walmart to make their money go as far as they can.
 
2012-12-15 10:53:13 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: liam76: If everyone was paid more (including their competition) that effect on their prices wouldn't matter.

You think online retailers have the same kinds of staffing costs as traditional retailers?


They don't but a conversation of brick and mortar vs online stores isn't really what we are talking about. They aren't Wal-Mart's big competitor.
 
2012-12-15 11:00:09 AM  
Its funny. Amazon treats their employees in the warehouse horribly too but Fark loves them.
 
2012-12-15 11:14:25 AM  

o5iiawah: Again, you're disagreeing and pouting but you cant break the argument.


You're arguing the sky is green. There's nothing to break that you didn't already do yourself. Wages. Do. Not. Work. That. Way.

You want to say a wage floor affects unemployment, fine. You've stumbled on something true.
But here we're talking about minimum wage and Wal-Mart, where workers bring in value far exceeding their pay, not some hypothetical union shop with 10 employees and a tight budget.
 
2012-12-15 11:16:05 AM  

liam76: They aren't Wal-Mart's big competitor.


They are a growing threat every year.

Amazon's Showrooming Effect And Quick Growth Threaten Wal-Mart
 
2012-12-15 12:10:51 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: slayer199: Are you implying that people of less than average intellience, can't learn a trade that pays more than minimum wage? So by your estimation, we need to support half the population because in your mind they're unable to support themselves.

Mighty fine strawman. Almost distracted me from those moving goalposts.

slayer199: An honest answer to that question is yes, I think most people of average intelligence can do it if given a fair opportunity.

Your words. Answer the question instead of making up fabricating my position.


Not moving the goalposts, you did. I said average intelligence. That makes up the majority of the population like a Bell curve, but you defined it as half that are below average intelligence.

I said earlier, we have programs to take care of those unable to help themselves.
 
2012-12-15 12:32:14 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: You've completely eliminated personal responsibility from the equation by allowing work to pay too little to live on. With neither the means nor ability to move up, anyone of any intelligence rightly stops giving a fark. And yet blowhards troll in and tell people to demean themselves, starve themselves, give every moment of their time to some employer, start a business with the money they don't have, get an education with the money they don't have.
If you want people to take responsibility, you have to give them a reasonable way to do so. Telling people it's possible for someone of average intelligence if they make all the right choices, make no mistakes, and stay healthy long enough just isn't good enough. For the richest country in the world, it's appalling.


Demean themselves? Unless you're talking about working in the sex industry, how is working multiple jobs demeaning oneself? If you are poor, grants and loans can pay for your education...or is filling out that paperwork, too much work for someone? Starve themselves? Very few people in this country are really starving. For those that are, there are plenty of programs in place to assist them.

It's appalling that you're trying to excuse the majority of the poor from their responsibility for their station in life. I believe that's inherently wrong. We have generational poverty...so how do you break it? By creating opportunity, not by making the government responsible for them. It's not a business' job to take care of them. They provide the jobs, people show up and get paid.

How do you create opportunity? By increasing government involvement in lives? By more government handouts? People create opportunity for themselves and business create opportunity.

Humans make mistakes...the key is that they learn from them. There's not a person in this thread that hasn't made mistakes that has cost them. But you're giving the poor a pass on this as well.

There's a huge difference on how we view things. I have faith that a majority of people can rise above if they are given hope and responsibility. Your version of hope is to create a cycle of dependence. If government gave the poor more, then they'll succeed. My version is to remove the dependence and create opportunity...and the government has little to nothing to do with that method.

You have such little faith in people...but your faith in government is unshakeable.
 
2012-12-15 01:01:55 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: But here we're talking about minimum wage and Wal-Mart, where workers bring in value far exceeding their pay


You may feel as though the compensation is unfair, but who are you to actually know what IS a fair wage, or what each position at wal-mart should make according to how much value they deliver to the company? I'll give you the chance though to explain how much value a greeter, bagger or stock person brings to wal-mart and why their wage is unfair. Thus far, all the arguments for wage have been on the side of need-based or that the wage ought to provide a certain lifestyle where the very definition of a wage has nothing to do with fulfilling a lifestyle expectation.
 
2012-12-15 02:01:09 PM  

o5iiawah: Sergeant Grumbles: But here we're talking about minimum wage and Wal-Mart, where workers bring in value far exceeding their pay

You may feel as though the compensation is unfair, but who are you to actually know what IS a fair wage, or what each position at wal-mart should make according to how much value they deliver to the company? I'll give you the chance though to explain how much value a greeter, bagger or stock person brings to wal-mart and why their wage is unfair. Thus far, all the arguments for wage have been on the side of need-based or that the wage ought to provide a certain lifestyle where the very definition of a wage has nothing to do with fulfilling a lifestyle expectation.


Hey, that's fine, Walmart doesn't have to pay its employees a good wage, minimum wage is just fine. But then I don't want to hear how important the "job creators" are since the jobs they are creating are crap.
 
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