Fizpez: I detest WalMart in almost every single way but how much should a zero skill position pay? If you ignore health care I could probably "live" on about $8/hr. That means keeping myself alive, getting to work and going home. And that's about it.

Somewhere between that and "Walmart needs to pay their cashiers enough to support a family of 4 in a middle class lifestyle" is the problem.

No that is not the problem, nobody is claiming Walmart should be required to pay an income that can support a family of four in a middle class life style. People would like to see Walmart pay their employees a wage that does not require them to depend on government assistance for basic needs.

doczoidberg: As someone who makes 13.50, I am amused.

Just for the sake of knowing, what is it that you do? And do you feel that 13.5/hr is worth it (at least to you)?

Giltric: It all depends on how motivated or hungry someone is.....

You've never been hungry.
That's the only way you can speak with such ignorance.

Retail and fast food job schedules often don't allow second jobs. Even then, the wages won't pay for an education, or even leave time to attend classes/training.
"Comfortable" should be a one-bedroom apartment, enough for food and utilities, and enough extra to pay for bettering yourself. It is the very least someone working a full time job deserves, and easily doable in the richest country in the world.

There are two options.
1) Wages
2) Taxes

Unless you'll allow the poor to die in the street, they must either be given wages to survive by employers, or social services paid for via taxes. For everyone like yourself who asks "Why should Wal-Mart pay more?" ask yourself why you're paying for Wal-Mart's employees' healthcare.

o5iiawah: Minimum wage sets a floor for labor such that a company who has a $6/hr position either has to deduct pay from others to fill the need for the position or not hire the person altogether.

No. That is not how wages work. That is not how business works. That is not how reality works.
If a person does not bring more value to the company than they cost, they don't get hired. They don't takes wages away from everyone else to hire someone new.
Stop being stupid.

Dr Dreidel: o5iiawah: An individual can eat, sleep, pay utilities and participate in the employee benefits plan.

Sleep is free everywhere. The Man might hassle you about sleeping in the park, but that's because he's a fascist pig.

I've also known people to be trash-pickers when it comes to eating. You'd be surprised what people have to do to stay alive. That can be "free" if you lower your standards enough.

If you wear lots of coats (you can get 'em from Goodwill if you don't keep hitting the same one week after week), there's no need to pay heating bills; board games and decks of cards (also from goodwill) don't require electricity and provide endless hours of entertainment. Utilities are clearly a luxury.

In order to participate in Walmart's employee benefits plan, don't you have to work a full 40-hour week? Haven't they made a habit out of scheduling 35-hour weeks so that employees aren't eligible?

There's a stripe of belief that stamps its feet at the "lazy, shiftless" welfare leeches, then derides their choice of job as "menial", or "known to be low-end" and supports the low wages, works to cut public assistance and further derides the choices they make in trying to make a better life (like, by having a cell phone, or not living in crime-infested areas). Those are the worst kind of people - the kind that are one short burst of logical thinking away from realizing how horrible a world they wish on everyone who wasn't handed the invisible opportunities inherent in NOT living hand-to-mouth through adulthood.

So to sum up - you can probably live a frugal lifestyle on $2/day, but is that what we want to subject people who WANT TO WORK FOR A LIVING to?

A question that i like to ask (well, used to ask. I've since given up FB conversations with these people i'm going to refer to) is simply : "Do you think that someone that works 35+ hours a week deserves basic healthcare?"

The responses, quite literally, made me sad enough to just about cry. Or throw the computer out the window. Or stop talking to them.

o5iiawah: If wal-mart paid cart wranglers $6/hr instead of $7.25, they might be able to hire a few more of them and some high school kids and low income individuals would gain market skills otherwise.

You hire enough cart wranglers to wrangle the carts. Salary has nothing to do with it.

What would you do with extra cart wranglers?

theurge14: It used to work when employers had some shred of social obligations to the society that made their businesses possible. But that seems to have faded in the last 20-30 years when they installed the idea that SOCIALIZMZ BAD among the red-state peasantry. Something's gotta give

I don't think it was a "socialism is bad" that caused that (although that is used to propagate it today).

It worked when there was something at stake for the owners (major shareholders) to keep the company going. With the advent of venture vulturecapatalists this isn't the case.

Giltric: People either go out and get a 2nd job to pay for classes that might increase their skillset or they sit around waiting for someone else to make that happen for them.

Are you one of those bootstrappy folks who worked two full-time jobs while going to school?

Because I am guessing you aren't, and that it is a lot harder than you think. Especially if you came fromt he background that a lot of these peopel do. They don't have the skills to knwo which "classes" will really help them and which will just rip them off. And peopel like you are proably against congress going after for profit colleges that prey on people who are in that shiatty situation and are trying to better themselves.

I paid for college myself and was lucky enough to not have to work through much of it (but I did graduate with abotu 40k in debt).

Dr Dreidel: In order to participate in Walmart's employee benefits plan, don't you have to work a full 40-hour week? Haven't they made a habit out of scheduling 35-hour weeks so that employees aren't eligible?

I have been thinking how you can fix the "35" hour part time trick.

Only thing I can come up with is defining anyone who works more than 20hours a week as full time.

o5iiawah: You've disagreed but you havent broken my argument.

Your argument is always the same. The free market is always the answer. Workers have no one to blame for their lot in life but themselves.

It's people like you who made me into a Marxist. Thanks :)

I am all for being paid a living wage, but not for doing a job that requires almost zero in the way of skills. Those jobs should pay shiat wages. shiat wages fuels the desire to not work shiat jobs.

Stay in school, kids. Stay in school.

slayer199: Giltric: People either go out and get a 2nd job to pay for classes that might increase their skillset or they sit around waiting for someone else to make that happen for them.

At some point people need to be personally responsible for themselves. It's not the government's job to give them more money (despite what some may think), nor is it a company's responsibility to pay them a "living wage." If you can make more money compliments of minimum wage hikes without obtaining a valuable skill or improving your education, where is the incentive to better yourself?

The minimum wage is a crutch, not an incentive.

And what do you suggest for people that have little skills, have had little to no exposure to a decent education (or are well below average IQ), have been laid off and need work to live?

kregh99: I am all for being paid a living wage, but not for doing a job that requires almost zero in the way of skills. Those jobs should pay shiat wages. shiat wages fuels the desire to not work shiat jobs.

Stay in school, kids. Stay in school.

Stay in school, incur massive amounts of debt.... and maybe.... just maybe you'll get a decent job, but probably not! Ahhhh capitalism it's so refreshingly retarded.

kregh99: I am all for being paid a living wage, but not for doing a job that requires almost zero in the way of skills. Those jobs should pay shiat wages. shiat wages fuels the desire to not work shiat jobs.

Stay in school, kids. Stay in school.

Of course any job you have done deserve better than shiat wages. shiat wages are for the little people who do jobs that serve your needs.

MugzyBrown: The term living wage is idiotic.

You can live off $6/hr working only 40 hours a week unless you make stupid life decisions... yes even in the city.

The name of that city is New Delhi, India.

Giltric: FarkedOver: It's people like you who made me into a Marxist. Thanks :)

So you only take a minimum amount to live off of that your ability generates for you and you give the rest away to people who need it?

Do we live in a Marxist society? Don't ask shiatty questions.

Globalization truly farked us. Until the race to the bottom in terms of wages finishes on a global scale (companies had there factories in mexico, then mexicans became to expensive so they moved to china, then when the chinese become too expensive they're going to move to africa) wages for labor are going to continue to decrease, while the already wealthy will continue to gain more and more of the pie.

If you don't feel you get paid enough to push buttons of move boxes around....GET A BETTER JOB OR MAYBE A SKILL

Giltric: FarkedOver: Giltric: FarkedOver: It's people like you who made me into a Marxist. Thanks :)

So you only take a minimum amount to live off of that your ability generates for you and you give the rest away to people who need it?

Do we live in a Marxist society? Don't ask shiatty questions.

Oh so society has to be marxist for you to do that?

sounds more like "fark them I got mine"......some marxist you are.

Riiiiighhhhttt... Marxism/Socialism is a international struggle. You should read up on it some time.

MugzyBrown: The term living wage is idiotic.

You can live off $6/hr working only 40 hours a week unless you make stupid life decisions... yes even in the city.

Like getting sick.

Like having to help a sick family member.

Like being the victim of a crime.

Etc.

I say make WalMart responsible for covering the cost of their employees food stamps etc with interest. Basically stop them from being able to use public funds from subsidizing their business.

Sergeant Grumbles: Retail and fast food job schedules often don't allow second jobs.

THIS RIGHT HERE.

I worked as a cashier in nationwide hardware store chain in the summers when I was in college.

The first year I worked there I was getting just under 40 hours a week, enough to bankroll some cash. The second year they started cutting my hours halfway thru the summer, but there was no rhyme or reason to when I would be scheduled or not. Some weeks I'd work afternoons Tues-Thurs, some weeks I'd be on all weekend+Monday morning.

I wanted to get a second job somewhere, but I was warned if I cut my availability hours down, I would lose hours from the already crap ones I was getting. Instead of a second job, I would have to get a replacement job.

In the end I did not return the next two summers, and instead ran a small eBay business. Made about the same money in the end.

MugzyBrown: Splitting rent and utilities and basic food 4 ways makes it pretty damn cheap.

Which is great unless you happen to have kids or any of a number of other issues.

MugzyBrown: Random Anonymous Blackmail: If you have a second job and sell drugs on the side.

A cheap one bedroom is $500-600/month here in fly over country

You can get a 2 bedroom apt in Philly for $800 per month.

When I was in school and making just over minimum wage I had 3 roomates in a 2 bedroom apartment. Splitting rent and utilities and basic food 4 ways makes it pretty damn cheap.

So you suggest living in a commune?

MugzyBrown: Random Anonymous Blackmail: If you have a second job and sell drugs on the side.

A cheap one bedroom is $500-600/month here in fly over country

You can get a 2 bedroom apt in Philly for $800 per month.

When I was in school and making just over minimum wage I had 3 roomates in a 2 bedroom apartment. Splitting rent and utilities and basic food 4 ways makes it pretty damn cheap.

Of course foodis cheaper if 4 people share a meal for one.

FarkedOver: MugzyBrown: Random Anonymous Blackmail: If you have a second job and sell drugs on the side.

A cheap one bedroom is $500-600/month here in fly over country

You can get a 2 bedroom apt in Philly for $800 per month.

When I was in school and making just over minimum wage I had 3 roomates in a 2 bedroom apartment. Splitting rent and utilities and basic food 4 ways makes it pretty damn cheap.

So you suggest living in a commune?

If you can't heat the place with the body warmth of your roommates, you just aren't doing it right.

MugzyBrown: WhyteRaven74: Which is great unless you happen to have kids

Sounds like a poor life decision to have kids if you're making $6 per hour

People never have their circumstances change after having children. Life is a continual path upwards.

Sgt Otter: ox45tallboy: He said "competitive" wage, as in "it's about what everyone else in the industry pays". I don't think even $18.7 million would be enough for him to keep a straight face while calling it a "living wage".

When you ARE the industry, you are setting the standard, and everyone else competes against you. If they were to raise their wages, other retail stores would follow suit. But that extra $0.03 /share each quarter nets him another $2 million bonus*, so why bother? The people will work for crap.

This is the biggest problem with Capitalism - there is absolutely no incentive to make others' lives better, and every incentive to take advantage of your position to make others' lives worse, even when it is for a comparatively tiny benefit to yourself. (I'm sure I would notice the difference between $16 million / year and $18 million, but not NEARLY as much as I would notice the difference between $18K and $25K.)

*these numbers have been pulled out of my ass. Please feel free to substitute real numbers I don't feel like looking up right now and I guarantee that my point will still stand

Paying your workers well enough to afford your own products is a huge incentive.

Henry Ford figured that out a hundred years ago with the Model T.

Not this shiat again. Paying your employees more specifically so they can afford to buy your product makes absolutely zero business sense, as the vast majority of the increased wages will go to other uses.

That's why no business people today pay wages based on that theory, and also why Henry ford didn't (he raised wages for other reasons).

Giltric: Instead of using some arbitrary term like living wage why doesn;t anyone calculate what living expenses should be.....

That has already happened, it's not arbitrary. Though the number will be different depending on where you live.

Giltric: FarkedOver: Giltric: FarkedOver: Giltric: FarkedOver: It's people like you who made me into a Marxist. Thanks :)

So you only take a minimum amount to live off of that your ability generates for you and you give the rest away to people who need it?

Do we live in a Marxist society? Don't ask shiatty questions.

Oh so society has to be marxist for you to do that?

sounds more like "fark them I got mine"......some marxist you are.

Riiiiighhhhttt... Marxism/Socialism is a international struggle. You should read up on it some time.



I don't have to live in a buddhist society to act all buddhist and treat people the way a buddhist does....why do you need society to be marxist in order for you to practice marxism?

Why do you cockblock for your own ideology?

Clearly, you've never studied Marxism, socialism, communism or revolutionary politics at all.

Why doesn't it work? It's called the USSR. Stalin tried socialism in one country. It failed. Why? Because Socialism is a worldwide revolutionary movement. If you cannot ignite the world in revolution the capitalist will come back. I'd love to give you more of a radical left lesson, but you should just go to www.marxists.org. Have fun champ!

We can discuss all day long what Wal Mart should or could pay their employees. The bottom line is that they are going to pay them the absolute minimum they can get away with. As long as they aren't violating and labor laws (or aren't getting caught violating any) and people are still willing to fill out an application and work there, wages will not go up. Period.

There are really only 3 ways to get them to increase wages and benefits. One is through legislation which, in my opinion, is the worst way to go about it. Legislation tends to be very broad and comes with a host of unintended consequences. That's not to mention the fact that it would be nearly impossible to pass anything meaningful in today's political climate, and whatever you could get passed would be so watered-down by corporate bribing lobbying as to be virtually worthless.

The second is through increased competition or an improved economy. If Wal Mart can't find people to work $8.50/hr. because everyone else is paying $10, their wages will go up. That's not likely to happen because, as someone else mentioned earlier, Wal Mart pretty much sets the bar here. If there were some sort of vast economic expansion and people were no longer trapped between taking a slave wage or living under a bridge, that would also do the trick. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

The last way would be for the workers to unionize. That's going to be nearly impossible to accomplish as well. They could pull it off in some states, but in many states there are few protections for workers who choose to unionize. Right-to-work laws and an economy in the toilet will ensure that for every worker who decides to join the union and strike, there will be 3 people willing to take their place. The striking workers will simply be replaced by people too desperate to do anything other than play by Wal Mart's rules. They are simply too big, with too many employees spread over all 50 states.

The cold, hard truth is that for a company like Wal Mart, workers are just cogs in a machine - cheap and easily replaceable. If a cog can't afford to get its impacted tooth fixed and can't go to work because it's in too much pain, you simply replace it with another cog. If a light bulb burns out at your house, you don't spend resources trying to fix it or figure out how to improve the conditions the light bulb operated in and make investments to make sure that the next light bulb lasts longer. You go to Wal Mart, buy a package of cheap bulbs assembled in China, toss the old one in the trash and move on with life.

tl;dr - Wal Mart's pay and benefit levels aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Enjoy your $5.00 pallet of lead-coated toilet paper.

max_pooper: So there are no Walmart employees on government assistance?

No more by volume than target, best buy, Kroger, wholefoods...or any other basic job in America

I love how we used to be all about prosperity for all Americans. Now prosperity is making minimum wage and using food stamps. Why do you people think this is the best we can do? How is this good? Walmart would be making exactly 0$ if it weren't for its employees, but god forbid they pay them what they're worth. That money is for the owners of the stock, not the people who actually do the work and provide their labor! You want to start a revolution, take away the ability of people to feel like they can live a decent life.

FarkedOver: Do we live in a Marxist society? Don't ask shiatty questions. I only support charity when compelled at the point of a gun.

We get it.

That said, Wal-Mart does a shiatty thing to people when it comes to health insurance. At least provide them with something basic on your own dime!

FarkedOver: Why doesn't it work? It's called the USSR. Stalin tried socialism in one country. It failed. Why? Because Socialism is a worldwide revolutionary movement. If you cannot ignite the world in revolution the capitalist will come back. I'd love to give you more of a radical left lesson, but you should just go to www.marxists.org. Have fun champ!

It fails because it directly contradicts the most basic competitive drive to succeed that exists in every living thing.