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(The Atlantic)   Startup car company builds car that "breaks the rules." Apparently, Rule Number One was don't build a car that looks like a shopping cart   (theatlantic.com) divider line 302
    More: Asinine, Rule Number One, car pools, electric cars, battery packs  
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27718 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Dec 2012 at 11:43 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-13 03:25:40 PM

Tom_Slick: czetie: /I can't even tell whether you know you're confirming my point, or whether you genuinely call that "painless".

To me it was painless and I did it on a bike rather than a trike, it took 1 hour for the written test and 2 hours for the driving test including the inevitable wait times at the DMV, the written test was easy just having to learn hand signals rules of the road etc, and the driving test just made sure you could start, stop and turn left and right. I would think a modern trike would be even easier as you don't have to learn how to handle a bike.


Ah, so the answer is "both". You do think this counts as painless, while not realizing that you are confirming that it's not going to fly when the alternative is to sign-and-drive for a small car.
 
2012-12-13 03:39:41 PM

Jedekai: /BioDiesel is going to kill electric - and hydrogen isn't that far behind.


Hydrogen is a pipe dream for automotive use. Its a decent enough method of energy storage, but not on a small scale like we do with gasoline. While hydrogen does have a higher specific energy, octane and other hydrocarbons of similar lengths have some of the highest energy densities of any readily available compounds. Hydrogen has a specific energy of about 142 megajoules per kilogram, while gasoline has only about 48mj/kg. BUT, a kilogram of gasoline is about 1.4 liters, and a kilogram of liquid hydrogen is a little over 14 liters. so not only would you need a fuel tank nearly four times the size for a car of similar range (and thats assuming hydrogen would be as efficient as an internal combustion engine), but hydrogen is only liquid at 20 degrees kelvin, or about 250 degrees below zero. Maintaining that low a temperature requires even more energy, plus all sorts of fancy high pressure storage systems that require specialized materials because hydrogen embrittles many metals. Battery tech is getting better every day, its not to the energy density of gasoline yet, but were getting there.

greenecon.net

greenecon.net
 
2012-12-13 03:46:42 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-13 03:47:35 PM

MindStalker: I really liked it when it was called the Carver. They never released anything though :(


I believe Carver did have some production vehicles on the road in Europe. I know Top Gear tested them a couple of times. Even Jezza liked it.

Supposedly, a company in California bought the rights to the Carver design and are producing their own version called "Persu".

Still seems to be vaporware, more's the pity. Wouldn't mind owning one with an ICE powerplant.
 
2012-12-13 03:49:32 PM

Pfighting Polish: OK, flame away at this, but I think there's are counters to the points you guys are making here:

1. It's unsafe.

So are motorcycles and scooters, really, but people ride those and that's who these are marketed towards. If you're that concerned about safety, you're not going to buy a motorcycle or scooter, either, so it's not marketed towards you.

I'll grant you that you probably aren't considering something like this if you were looking into a motorcycle because part of owning a motorcycle is the machismo of it, even a crotch rocket. This isn't the most macho vehicle. But a lot of the scooter owners I know, particularly female ones, would love to have a little more safety, something that's easier to steer, the ability to carry more than a small bag of groceries and the convenience of not having to ruin their hair with a helmet all the time. Bonus on the fully-electric part.

Looked at that way, and looking at how many people have embraced scooters, it's just an improvement on that idea. Only disadvantage is it takes a little more space than a scooter. So be it.

2. It won't drive well in bad weather.

Again, neither does a motorcycle or a scooter. The scooter owners I know have a reasonable car they drive in those conditions. They save so much in the months they use the scooter that it pays off in the end.

3. It costs too much.

Again, it's what you save down the line, plus, the cost will go down. The early adopters will have to pay, but it will get better if there are early adopters. One of these ideas will eventually catch on, so there will be.

4. It looks dorky.

This is the only thing I can't counter you on. But I will say this: As a compact car driver (just a good ol' all-American Chevy Cobalt), I can't tell you how annoying it is to not be able to see around curb-parked SUVs when trying to pull onto streets, how slowly they accelerate to speed on the freeway, when they can't/won't see you or make room for you trying to change lanes, etc. If ...


1) Dude in TFA is the one saying it's as safe as a car and good in all weather... we're simply saying that's BS.
It's a MOTORCYCLE... you still have to wear a helmet. That's where the ultimate failing of this thing will be.

2) Again... dude says it's good for all weather... we're just calling out the BS.

3) It does cost too much. It's an electric scooter with a bubble. Even at $10k... it costs too much.

4) Looks are subjective. If I say it's ugly... then it's ugly.
I'm sorry my giant SUV bothers you... get over it. I need it for reasons that are not any of your farking business.
 
2012-12-13 03:49:36 PM

MindStalker: Hrm, apparently Persu Link , bought the tech from Carver..


*shakes tiny, impotent fist of rage*
 
2012-12-13 03:54:12 PM

czetie: Tom_Slick: czetie: /I can't even tell whether you know you're confirming my point, or whether you genuinely call that "painless".

To me it was painless and I did it on a bike rather than a trike, it took 1 hour for the written test and 2 hours for the driving test including the inevitable wait times at the DMV, the written test was easy just having to learn hand signals rules of the road etc, and the driving test just made sure you could start, stop and turn left and right. I would think a modern trike would be even easier as you don't have to learn how to handle a bike.

Ah, so the answer is "both". You do think this counts as painless, while not realizing that you are confirming that it's not going to fly when the alternative is to sign-and-drive for a small car.


Here in Virginia at least, we have the motercycle driving and safety program put on by the DMV. So you take the class, which includes written instruction and road trials. They provide the bikes, or, you can bring your own.

I think it takes three weeks to complete, but after that you have your M class stamped on your license.

after that... you can legally operate any thing that is classified as a motorcycle.

I don't think any traffic cop would mess with you too much however if were operating an inclosed Delta trike as long as the vehicle was registered and tagged properly.
Virginia is also a Helmet state law...I guess if the cop wanted to be a REAL DICK, he could ticket you for operating a motorcycle with out a helmet inside of there as well.
 
2012-12-13 04:11:33 PM

tricycleracer: moothemagiccow: I might never understand the fetishization of cars. It's like buying a cool-looking hammer.

Or a cool-looking pizza cutter?

[www.toxel.com image 450x338]


That's actually pretty cool. I wouldn't want to ride it, but as utensils go, I wouldn't want to ride a C-1 either.
 
2012-12-13 04:14:07 PM

Cerebral Knievel: czetie: Tom_Slick: czetie: /I can't even tell whether you know you're confirming my point, or whether you genuinely call that "painless".

To me it was painless and I did it on a bike rather than a trike, it took 1 hour for the written test and 2 hours for the driving test including the inevitable wait times at the DMV, the written test was easy just having to learn hand signals rules of the road etc, and the driving test just made sure you could start, stop and turn left and right. I would think a modern trike would be even easier as you don't have to learn how to handle a bike.

Ah, so the answer is "both". You do think this counts as painless, while not realizing that you are confirming that it's not going to fly when the alternative is to sign-and-drive for a small car.

Here in Virginia at least, we have the motercycle driving and safety program put on by the DMV. So you take the class, which includes written instruction and road trials. They provide the bikes, or, you can bring your own.

I think it takes three weeks to complete, but after that you have your M class stamped on your license.

after that... you can legally operate any thing that is classified as a motorcycle.

I don't think any traffic cop would mess with you too much however if were operating an inclosed Delta trike as long as the vehicle was registered and tagged properly.
Virginia is also a Helmet state law...I guess if the cop wanted to be a REAL DICK, he could ticket you for operating a motorcycle with out a helmet inside of there as well.


Again: if the choice is "three week class"... or "not three week class"... I can tell you right now that this thing is not remotely compelling enough for the average car driver to go out and get his M endorsement. It's an obstacle, and this thing doesn't need more obstacles.

Persuade the DoT to define a class of vehicles that have different mechanical standards to regular cars (maybe defined by weight?) while allowing it to be driven on a regular driver's license and it might have a chance. Otherwise, the market is limited to people who already have their M.
 
2012-12-13 04:20:19 PM
bluefoxicy is heinous to argue with, but he's damn entertaining to watch.
 
2012-12-13 04:28:15 PM
I'm sorry my giant SUV bothers you... get over it. I need it for reasons that are not any of your farking business.

Absolutely! Reasons such as increase your nation's dependency on foreign interests, polluting the biosphere as much as possible for your children, all kinds of things.

/why yes, this is a pet peeve of mine
//we are a society of disgusting over-consumers IMHO
 
2012-12-13 04:30:10 PM

czetie: Cerebral Knievel: czetie: Tom_Slick: czetie: /I can't even tell whether you know you're confirming my point, or whether you genuinely call that "painless".

To me it was painless and I did it on a bike rather than a trike, it took 1 hour for the written test and 2 hours for the driving test including the inevitable wait times at the DMV, the written test was easy just having to learn hand signals rules of the road etc, and the driving test just made sure you could start, stop and turn left and right. I would think a modern trike would be even easier as you don't have to learn how to handle a bike.

Ah, so the answer is "both". You do think this counts as painless, while not realizing that you are confirming that it's not going to fly when the alternative is to sign-and-drive for a small car.

Here in Virginia at least, we have the motercycle driving and safety program put on by the DMV. So you take the class, which includes written instruction and road trials. They provide the bikes, or, you can bring your own.

I think it takes three weeks to complete, but after that you have your M class stamped on your license.

after that... you can legally operate any thing that is classified as a motorcycle.

I don't think any traffic cop would mess with you too much however if were operating an inclosed Delta trike as long as the vehicle was registered and tagged properly.
Virginia is also a Helmet state law...I guess if the cop wanted to be a REAL DICK, he could ticket you for operating a motorcycle with out a helmet inside of there as well.

Again: if the choice is "three week class"... or "not three week class"... I can tell you right now that this thing is not remotely compelling enough for the average car driver to go out and get his M endorsement. It's an obstacle, and this thing doesn't need more obstacles.

Persuade the DoT to define a class of vehicles that have different mechanical standards to regular cars (maybe defined by weight?) while allowing it to be driven o ...


I think in general we need some more license classifications, its kinda bullshiat that someone could take their test in a geo metro and then go drive a chevy suburban.
 
2012-12-13 04:35:42 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: 4) Looks are subjective. If I say it's ugly... then it's ugly.
I'm sorry my giant SUV bothers you... get over it. I need it for reasons that are not any of your farking business.


Lies!
 
2012-12-13 04:43:22 PM

moike: If I'm going to pay 20 grand for something with three wheels it better at least carry two people, do 200mph, and lay long lurid darkies when you wack the throttle wide open... even at triple digit speeds...

[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 720x479]


I hate you for living a life that implicitly mocks my pathetic existence.
 
2012-12-13 04:44:19 PM

oldfarthenry: Being trapped in a small fibreglass egg with my own flatus? Um, no.


If someone could just figure out how to convert farts to fuel you'd be in business.
 
2012-12-13 04:50:37 PM

FLMountainMan: To save costs, you could even roll it out gradually, have one lane be the "recharge" lane.


bundae.files.wordpress.com
It's been done.
 
2012-12-13 04:51:33 PM
16k for a motorcycle that you can't ditch off of? Can't wait to see what happens when the gyrostab fails. This thing is just full of fail. Some SF hipster saving the world by building a complicated, expensive motorcycle with a big windscreen and no cargo capacity.
 
2012-12-13 04:51:48 PM

Jument: I'm sorry my giant SUV bothers you... get over it. I need it for reasons that are not any of your farking business.

Absolutely! Reasons such as increase your nation's dependency on foreign interests, polluting the biosphere as much as possible for your children, all kinds of things.

/why yes, this is a pet peeve of mine
//we are a society of disgusting over-consumers IMHO


Go ahead and be peeved... if it makes you feel better.

Not gonna change the fact that I can't tow 10,000lbs and carry 6 adults comfortably with a Smart Car.
 
2012-12-13 05:06:40 PM

ParaHandy: Glitchwerks: bluefoxicy: That's because, at an unfounded guess, you probably think terribly built Italian Lambos and Ferraris are good cars, rather than grounded shiat boxes with huge engines.

In terms of performance, Lamborghini and Ferrari aren't just good...they are outstanding. While you could certainly make a case for past Lamborghini cars like the Diablo and Countach as being poorly built and overpowered, the Aventador and Gallardo are pound for pound some of the best cars in existence. Same with Ferrari and it's 458, 599 GTO, etc.

Yes, they are extremely expensive and high maintenance, but as feats of engineering they are almost currently unrivaled, except for cars like the MP4-12C, Veyron, and a scant few others.

/I've seen this bitter hatred towards European performance cars before.

There are modern, less expnesive approaches to supercar construction too .... a lot of the cars above involve paying extra for the badge, except for the McLaren.

[lh5.googleusercontent.com image 720x540]

And yes, it meets the cut on performance if not on price ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_T im es

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_l ap _times#Bridge_to_gantry


That car is going to age badly. Don't get me wrong... a wonderful car with great technology - but a shiatty body style. No sex appeal whatsoever.
 
2012-12-13 05:16:37 PM

Xenomech: I'm sorry, but that seating arrangement is not going to fly:

[i50.tinypic.com image 830x564]


It is clearly not designed with the Amurrikan physique in mind.

That said, being under 200lbs and having a two hour commute (each way) means I'll take it!
 
2012-12-13 05:19:32 PM

czetie: Cerebral Knievel: czetie: Tom_Slick: czetie: /I can't even tell whether you know you're confirming my point, or whether you genuinely call that "painless".

To me it was painless and I did it on a bike rather than a trike, it took 1 hour for the written test and 2 hours for the driving test including the inevitable wait times at the DMV, the written test was easy just having to learn hand signals rules of the road etc, and the driving test just made sure you could start, stop and turn left and right. I would think a modern trike would be even easier as you don't have to learn how to handle a bike.

Ah, so the answer is "both". You do think this counts as painless, while not realizing that you are confirming that it's not going to fly when the alternative is to sign-and-drive for a small car.

Here in Virginia at least, we have the motercycle driving and safety program put on by the DMV. So you take the class, which includes written instruction and road trials. They provide the bikes, or, you can bring your own.

I think it takes three weeks to complete, but after that you have your M class stamped on your license.

after that... you can legally operate any thing that is classified as a motorcycle.

I don't think any traffic cop would mess with you too much however if were operating an inclosed Delta trike as long as the vehicle was registered and tagged properly.
Virginia is also a Helmet state law...I guess if the cop wanted to be a REAL DICK, he could ticket you for operating a motorcycle with out a helmet inside of there as well.

Again: if the choice is "three week class"... or "not three week class"... I can tell you right now that this thing is not remotely compelling enough for the average car driver to go out and get his M endorsement. It's an obstacle, and this thing doesn't need more obstacles.

Persuade the DoT to define a class of vehicles that have different mechanical standards to regular cars (maybe defined by weight?) while allowing it to be driven o ...


well.. the class is over three weekends... to be clear on the matter. and I agree with on all the other matters. that's how I would like to see it myself.
 
jvl
2012-12-13 05:25:13 PM
Cyno01:

A chart of KWH/gal? Would this be a bad time to point out that Hydrogen is compressible in much the same way Oil isn't?
 
2012-12-13 05:29:21 PM

h0tsauce: Xenomech: I'm sorry, but that seating arrangement is not going to fly:

[i50.tinypic.com image 830x564]

It is clearly not designed with the Amurrikan physique in mind.

That said, being under 200lbs and having a two hour commute (each way) means I'll take it!


You smugly try to distance yourself from Americans by misspelling the word and implying they are fat (which they are).

And yet you commute two hours to work. Yeah, it's THOSE people who are the problem, not you. Nosiree...
 
2012-12-13 05:30:39 PM
As a complete cockwad American I demand a car larger than everyone else's to protect me against my driving like a complete farking retard.

Does that sum up the thread?
Because this shiat pisses me off.
 
2012-12-13 05:31:38 PM

FLMountainMan: You were making some great points until you got to this. Have you ever been to other countries? People are about as selfish as their options.


OK, fine. Then my statement applies to all of humanity rather than just Americans. All the more reason to support VHEMT. People, in general, are insensitive and dumb and all I feel like I can do is shake my head.
 
2012-12-13 05:33:13 PM

Liese: mainsail: Holy Flyin' Mackerel; What speed were you traveling at? My TJ would need a lot of parts to make up $6K worth of accident...

I have a Nissan Xterra. My first deer to ever hit, and he came up along a steep ditch bank on the blackest of nights to run his knee (???, definitely just legs) into the side front panel, just in front of the passenger side hinge, down just behind the mudflap of my front wheel. It looked like someone threw a softball at my car (so it wasn't a full impact by a deer, you know). It took off some of the paint to expose the metal beneath. I went to get a quote, and they said $1500-2k after labor and everything. I was floored. Of course, this is a small town, I may get a better deal if I drove to the nearest big town, but... I guess it IS in a spot that's for stress points or something, so that's why it is more pricey. I don't know. Never had to deal with any kind of damage to a car before.

Suffice to say, it can happen and add up quick.


Yikes. I mean, I got into a gonzowhopper of an accident involving a sheet of ice on the freeway (thanks, Pawlenty for saving plowing money) and despite having seven colors of shiat beat out of my jeep by guard rails, it still only came to 3K, total. Wow....
 
2012-12-13 05:42:15 PM

error 303: So for $18,000, you could get a new SUV AND a car that got roughly 35 mpg.

If you're referring to the first generation Kia Rio, that's not really true. The car got 26 mpg in mixed driving.

/Used to have one, it was a piece of crap
//I kind of miss it though

Ah. Hm. Thought they were better than that. I've got a second gen and it's definitely a piece of crap that I'll miss when it's gone.


Nah, Kia fudges their MPG numbers. There was just a huge thing about it where both them and Hyundai had to compensate people who bought their cars for the MPG.
 
2012-12-13 05:48:09 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: ParaHandy: Glitchwerks: bluefoxicy: That's because, at an unfounded guess, you probably think terribly built Italian Lambos and Ferraris are good cars, rather than grounded shiat boxes with huge engines.

In terms of performance, Lamborghini and Ferrari aren't just good...they are outstanding. While you could certainly make a case for past Lamborghini cars like the Diablo and Countach as being poorly built and overpowered, the Aventador and Gallardo are pound for pound some of the best cars in existence. Same with Ferrari and it's 458, 599 GTO, etc.

Yes, they are extremely expensive and high maintenance, but as feats of engineering they are almost currently unrivaled, except for cars like the MP4-12C, Veyron, and a scant few others.

/I've seen this bitter hatred towards European performance cars before.

There are modern, less expnesive approaches to supercar construction too .... a lot of the cars above involve paying extra for the badge, except for the McLaren.

[lh5.googleusercontent.com image 720x540]

And yes, it meets the cut on performance if not on price ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_T im es

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_l ap _times#Bridge_to_gantry

That car is going to age badly. Don't get me wrong... a wonderful car with great technology - but a shiatty body style. No sex appeal whatsoever.


It's intentionally Japanese, rather than an Italian mid-engine knockoff (c.f Mitsubishi 3000GT, used to have one, Lexus LFA, never will) and you have to appreciate it for what it is. I don't find the car particularly beautiful, but it definitely says Rice Rocket :) The look does grow on you. There are many things not to like about it, but none of them detracts from its amazing ability to go round corners.

- the DCT's clumsy clutch control makes me look like a dilettante who can't drive stick in car parks (though admittedly the car is too quick for a stick)
- the interior is Lexus grade (best of Japan) and great compared to a quotidian Nissan, but plain Jane compared to a 911 turbo which is its direct competitor
- Nissan's "Music box" entertainment system and GPS are both awful. Usability on the former is so bad you have to install an iPod in the car.
- random items of apparently arbitrary cheapness ... $2 radiator caps from a Versa, lack of gas struts on the hood, no memory for power seats
- front seats are not true race buckets (neither are the 911 turbo's, but Porsche offers foldable ones as a factory option at least) and lateral support is lacking
- won't downshift from 2nd to 1st at certain times when it's necessary
- its prodigious performance nothwithstanding, it's overweight (1740kg) and under-tuned (0.8 bar max boost)
- interaction between the different software systems (4wd, traction control, engine) is pretty primitive

Even taking all of the above into account, it's still amazing and a bargain compared to any other performance car on the market. I seriously recommend getting one.

As to its aging, it's built like a brick outhouse, and I only drive it 6k miles a year. Whatever you think about it, it's a groundbreaking car from a technology standpoint and will surely become a collector's item in a couple of decades, which is when I will sell mine .... 911 turbos bottom out at $30k and then go up in value, this should do the same, and it's a lower volume car .... the engines are hand built in a lab by Nissan mater techs, and they can only turn out 1100 or so a month.
 
2012-12-13 06:38:08 PM

jvl: Cyno01:

A chart of KWH/gal? Would this be a bad time to point out that Hydrogen is compressible in much the same way Oil isn't?


Did you even read my post? LIQUID hydrogen is still 14 times less dense than gasoline. And liquefying hydrogen takes something like a third of its potential energy. Some engineers got a prius 650 miles on like a 40 gallon tank of liquid hydrogen. A prius can do about that on a 12 gallon tank of gas. Between the energy required to electrolize it, cool/compress it, and the added weight of having a large tank strong enough to withstand about a thousand atmospheres of pressure in the back of your car, you lose a lot of any energy gain made by using hydrogen.
 
2012-12-13 07:04:05 PM

Cerebral Knievel: well.. the class is over three weekends... to be clear on the matter. and I agree with on all the other matters. that's how I would like to see it myself.


Yes, I regularly drive past one of the classes in session at a NoVa college campus. But in any case, it sounds like we very largely agree: vehicle (and license) classification needs to catch up to technology if we're going to have ultra-small vehicles that drive like a car, not a bike.
 
2012-12-13 07:08:45 PM

Cyno01: I think in general we need some more license classifications, its kinda bullshiat that someone could take their test in a geo metro and then go drive a chevy suburban 12.5 tonne 40 ft long truck full of all their worldly goods and pulling a trailer with their 2.5 tonne Chevy Suburban on it..


Yes, really, at least here in Texas. U-Haul or Ryder will rent you this exact rig.
 
2012-12-13 07:30:23 PM

ParaHandy: Cyno01: I think in general we need some more license classifications, its kinda bullshiat that someone could take their test in a geo metro and then go drive a chevy suburban 12.5 tonne 40 ft long truck full of all their worldly goods and pulling a trailer with their 2.5 tonne Chevy Suburban on it..

Yes, really, at least here in Texas. U-Haul or Ryder will rent you this exact rig.


Going back around 30 years, Florida would grant you a CDL (commercial license) if you passed a special, not very difficult, written test. That'd let you drive anything except an ambulance or a school bus.

That meant that I, who had never driven anything bigger than a 20 foot box truck, could legally get behind the wheel of an 80,000 tractor trailer. Nothing wrong with that plan.
 
2012-12-13 07:38:14 PM

WhyteRaven74: ahem

[www.leosgarage.com image 640x480]


Is that Command Keen's Bean with Bacon Mega Rocket?
 
2012-12-13 08:24:24 PM
Even though it looks very goofy and nowhere near as safe as a car, I love to see stuff like this. I've been car shopping recently (engine blew in my Civic) and last week looked at an '07 Prius. over 10k, no thanks. As much as I want my next car to be a hybrid, I just can't get past what these alternate/electric/hybrid vehicles are being sold for. And no, I'm not a dirty hippy. I'm just a lazy person who would rather make fewer trips to the gas station and hopefully contribute a small amount to conserving our natural resources because the tech is there to do it and it's a smart move. I hope that companies continue to build and design, even if some of their designs-like this one, are pretty much laughable in any area that gets snow and/or are a joke to commuters like me that spend 2 hours on the highway each day.
 
2012-12-13 08:30:00 PM

specialkae: Even though it looks very goofy and nowhere near as safe as a car, I love to see stuff like this. I've been car shopping recently (engine blew in my Civic) and last week looked at an '07 Prius. over 10k, no thanks. As much as I want my next car to be a hybrid, I just can't get past what these alternate/electric/hybrid vehicles are being sold for. And no, I'm not a dirty hippy. I'm just a lazy person who would rather make fewer trips to the gas station and hopefully contribute a small amount to conserving our natural resources because the tech is there to do it and it's a smart move. I hope that companies continue to build and design, even if some of their designs-like this one, are pretty much laughable in any area that gets snow and/or are a joke to commuters like me that spend 2 hours on the highway each day.


Aw c'mon. Couple-hundred bucks and a weekend of drinking will get your engine replaced. Honda engines are cheeeeeeap. Swapping an engine is pretty easy, since it's mostly just hoses and bolts.

Admit it. You just want a newer car. ;)

/just playin'
 
2012-12-13 08:46:31 PM
Have over 100 people mentioned yet it's a covered motorcycle? Still, I'd consider it, if fun to ride.
 
2012-12-13 08:54:35 PM

Frederick: Have over 100 people mentioned yet it's a covered motorcycle? Still, I'd consider it, if fun to ride.


Well of course... With the cover on at least your friends won't be able to see you.
 
2012-12-13 09:57:52 PM
So, a motorcycle for people who think Vespas are scary.
 
2012-12-13 10:07:14 PM

Cyno01: jvl: Cyno01:

A chart of KWH/gal? Would this be a bad time to point out that Hydrogen is compressible in much the same way Oil isn't?

Did you even read my post? LIQUID hydrogen is still 14 times less dense than gasoline. And liquefying hydrogen takes something like a third of its potential energy. Some engineers got a prius 650 miles on like a 40 gallon tank of liquid hydrogen. A prius can do about that on a 12 gallon tank of gas. Between the energy required to electrolize it, cool/compress it, and the added weight of having a large tank strong enough to withstand about a thousand atmospheres of pressure in the back of your car, you lose a lot of any energy gain made by using hydrogen.


Hydrogen isn't even a fuel.
 
2012-12-14 12:17:47 AM

ParaHandy: santadog: doczoidberg: I agree. The price of this thing will determine whether it goes anywhere.

20 thousand dollars?
--Nope. People will just buy a normal car.

5 thousand dollars?
--Well, hell. I just might consider it.

That's the trouble with these green technologies. Micro houses, smart cars...they all cost way too much. People would buy this stuff if the price reflected what they are getting upfront.

For $6,000 you can buy a 550cc scooter that gets about 60mpg.
200miles on a single charge. I like it.

And the $6k scooter will still be running long after the battery pack in the $18k scooter, which will be long before the latter has saved you $12k in fuel.

I view small light weight electric vehicles as the future of urban commuting, and more specialization of vehicles as they become cheaper and energy becomes more expensive. I prefer the 1-2 seat electric car with a monocoque carbon fiber body, c.f. the cheap process for cold forming it that Gordon Murray has been working on.

However, there is a long, long way to go with battery technology.


Are you saying the $6K scooter that gets 60mpg (holding less than 3 gallons) will be running after the charge on a the machine that gets 200 miles from a single charge? Or are you saying the battery pack will be useless while the scooter still runs?

In the first case, just do the math.
Vehicle in the article: I don't know what the lifespan of said battery is, so I looked at the Chevy Volt. Different animal, and probably more expensive, but it's something.
Chevy Volt battery is good up to 100,000miles. Conservatively, 10,000 per year put on the vehicle.. so the battery pack can last up to 10 years. Replacement cost. $5,100 some bucks.

For the $6K scooter: 60mpg. Cost to get to the 200 miles the article talks about = $10.23 at $3.00 gal.
It will cost about $5,000 in gas for the scooter to hit 100,000miles.
So, in terms of energy costs.. about the same, but it's not that likely the scooter will hit 100,000 miles.

For the cost of another volt battery, the car could, if all other mechanics are sound, hit another 100,000 miles. Could the scooter? sure.. just keep rebuilding the engine, or buy another $6,000 scooter.

Me, I'm waiting for an electric scooter that can hold a charge beyond 60 miles. My scooter tour rocky mountain National Park, and usually riders put up to 55 miles on the scooters each day.
 
2012-12-14 12:21:17 AM

Xenomech: I'm sorry, but that seating arrangement is not going to fly:


Wanna bet?

img703.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-14 12:33:52 AM
A gyroscopically stabilized electric motorcycle with linkage steering? They're marketing wrong. The next prototype should be stripped of its top, painted red and have a promo video of a guy whipping it around a corner screaming "TETSUOOOO!".
 
2012-12-14 12:44:34 AM

impaler: hdhale: According to Kim, it's a concept whose time has come. Today's youths are less interested in buying cars than they are in buying iPhones and other gadgets: Car ownership among people between ages 18 and 34 is down by 30 percent in the last five years.

It's cute when urban people, particularly those who live in high density mass transit areas, try to apply urban sensibilities to things going on outside the city limits.

All my younger nieces and nephews want a CAR when they get a bit older. They may also want an iPhone, but they want their own means of transportation and they don't want one that is a glorified Vespa. If car ownership is down, it is because so are employment rate among teens, while insurance rates continue ever upward.

It's cute when people ignore hard statistical facts with limited personal anecdotes.


Big city folk should probably just stick with mass transit.
 
2012-12-14 12:48:53 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: Cyno01: jvl: Cyno01:

A chart of KWH/gal? Would this be a bad time to point out that Hydrogen is compressible in much the same way Oil isn't?

Did you even read my post? LIQUID hydrogen is still 14 times less dense than gasoline. And liquefying hydrogen takes something like a third of its potential energy. Some engineers got a prius 650 miles on like a 40 gallon tank of liquid hydrogen. A prius can do about that on a 12 gallon tank of gas. Between the energy required to electrolize it, cool/compress it, and the added weight of having a large tank strong enough to withstand about a thousand atmospheres of pressure in the back of your car, you lose a lot of any energy gain made by using hydrogen.

Hydrogen isn't even a fuel.


It is for stars, but then, no one ever accused you of knowing anything about space
 
2012-12-14 02:23:59 AM

flux: You know what I want to see? A workable, modular car design. If it's just you driving yourself, it's a light, driver-only dealie like this thing, or a tiny two-seater. Need to move a few people? Add on a backseat module. Need to haul some furniture? Connect the cargo module and make it a mini-pickup truck. A two-car family wouldn't even need two full cars with a system like that -- just two driving modules. They could connect the cargo or passenger module to whichever car needed it, but most of the time, they could get probably get by with just the driver modules.


I would support your Kickstarter.
 
2012-12-14 06:09:08 AM
If it got down under $10K and actually met even halfway decent safety standards, I'd consider it. Until then, I'm sticking with my scooter and renting a car for those rare occasions when I actually have to drive any real distances.
 
2012-12-14 10:52:05 AM

Flipper47465: Conflagrations, you built and electric Vespa with a Tupperware shell. Let me know how it does when some drunken soccer mom in a Escalade blows a stop sign and run in to you. On the bright side maybe some of your internal organs will remain inside the only vehicle after the crash.

That makes a Prius look like a Hummer.


Same thing that happens when you get hit by a car. Chances just went from 50% on your side to 100%
 
2012-12-14 10:56:39 AM
imageshack.us
 
2012-12-14 11:08:04 AM

Magorn: Nabb1: hillbillypharmacist: "Safety of a car"?
I'm gonna need to see some test results on that.

Yeah, that looks like a deathtrap, especially in a side-impact collision.

So do these, but it turns out the frame is an intergral roll cage, which makes them safer than conventional cars:
[thetalkingmirror.com image 640x480]


*ah-hem*

Top Gear - Craptastic Handling Cars - Smart Car
 
2012-12-14 11:16:24 AM

oldass31: Magorn: Nabb1: hillbillypharmacist: "Safety of a car"?
I'm gonna need to see some test results on that.

Yeah, that looks like a deathtrap, especially in a side-impact collision.

So do these, but it turns out the frame is an intergral roll cage, which makes them safer than conventional cars:
[thetalkingmirror.com image 640x480]

*ah-hem*

Top Gear - Craptastic Handling Cars - Smart Car


Cornering and taking a hit are two different things.

Plus, the Smart's use case is city streets. You're clearly giving up higher speed handling for being able to fit two of them in a single city street parallel parking space. I would never want one, but I don't commute in heavily urbanized areas.
 
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