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(Baltimore Sun)   Maryland highway administration explains why cameras write "work zone" speeding tickets when no workers are present: cameras are not for worker safety   (baltimoresun.com) divider line 36
    More: Obvious, worker safety, State Highway Administration, rises and falls, employment website, speed cameras, roadways, enforcement, Martin O'Malley  
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7405 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Dec 2012 at 9:01 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-13 09:10:40 AM  
9 votes:
It's painfully obvious what they're for. If speed was a real issue, they'd deploy measures to encourage people to slow down at the moment (rumble strips, an unoccupied cop car parked in the construction zone, a "your speed" radar sign, etc.), not something that sends them a ticket in the mail weeks after. And why wouldn't they leave them on 24/7? Would you shut off a camera if it was raking in thousands in free money each day?

These things should be illegal. Period. If a place needs speed enforcement, put a cop there.
2012-12-13 09:28:20 AM  
5 votes:

tuxq: Since road construction has no set hours of the day, how exactly do you propose the speed cameras work?


www.reuk.co.uk
2012-12-13 09:12:46 AM  
3 votes:
Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.
2012-12-13 10:13:58 AM  
2 votes:
For fark's sake, people, just drive the goddamn posted speed limit. Don't like the "revenue generators"? Think they're imposing Orwellian oversight onto your God-given right as an American to do whatever you damn well please? Let's look at some numbers.

Say the normal speed of traffic along a 5-mile stretch of road is 75 mph. At that speed, it would take 240 seconds to travel those 5 miles. If that 5-mile stretch of road were under construction, with a posted speed limit of 55 mph, it would now take 325 seconds to travel those 5 miles. This means that slowing down to the posted limit increases your drive time by 85 seconds.

85 FARKING SECONDS!

If it helps quell the rage, look at it this way: If driving for 85 seconds longer saves you a $50 citation, that's equivalent to a job which pays over $2000/hr.
2012-12-13 10:10:03 AM  
2 votes:
As someone who probably drives the speed limit 90% of the time, people driving even slower are way more of a common nuisance than speeders.
2012-12-13 09:30:23 AM  
2 votes:

destrip: If speed was a real issue, they'd deploy measures to encourage people to slow down at the moment (rumble strips, an unoccupied cop car parked in the construction zone, a "your speed" radar sign, etc.), not something that sends them a ticket in the mail weeks after


They come in the mail 2 days later. Baltimore City wants its money ASAP!

The camera that caught me was in a school zone where the school is now defunct.
2012-12-13 09:30:11 AM  
2 votes:

tuxq: Carn: JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.

It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?

Since road construction has no set hours of the day, how exactly do you propose the speed cameras work? How inconvenient is it for people to do 55mph instead of 65? Honestly.


What is more dangerous?

1: Driving slower than the majority of motorists around you, thereby forcing the flow of traffic around you
2: Driving at a similar pace as the traffic around you

/cameras are for revenue, not safety
2012-12-13 09:29:28 AM  
2 votes:

ZAZ: pag1107: I've always thought running one of those little white camera jeeps would make a great 2nd job. Sit there all evening reading a magazine or newspaper or book.

A guy in Arizona shot and killed a speed camera van occupant.


and nothing of value was lost.
2012-12-13 09:27:06 AM  
2 votes:
Another reason for speed limit reductions in work zones is the work zone itself. Narrowed lanes, lane shifts, lane drops, dust and debris (to name a few). Just because there are no workers does not mean there is no danger.
2012-12-13 09:24:18 AM  
2 votes:

tuxq: Carn: JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.

It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?

Since road construction has no set hours of the day, how exactly do you propose the speed cameras work? How inconvenient is it for people to do 55mph instead of 65? Honestly.


First, many road work sites include those happy little yellow lights with a sign that reads "speed limit x when flashing". Second, I don't have a problem with speed enforcement, I have a problem with automated systems doing the enforcement. If you have a road crew in a dangerous area, put a cop there. It will be more effective and safer than a camera that the drivers may or may not know about. Once again, if it's about safety, a real human being police officer will get you there. If it's about just raising money and safety (or guilt) be damned, yay cameras!
2012-12-13 09:19:27 AM  
2 votes:
Speeding and red light cameras.
GPS tracking for cars and people.
Security cams in public areas.
Legislation dictating what you can and can't eat based on healthcare costs.
Bans on smoking OUTDOORS.
Free Speech Zones.
Drug testing for employment.
NSA spying on your communications.
Secret detention facilities.
Police free to search you and your possessions almost at will.
Laws prohibiting many forms of self-defense.
Terrorist definitions expanded to include just about anyone out of line.
Rich/poor gap growing as a small elite group controls almost all the wealth.
High unemployment.


BUT WE GOT DUMB REALITY SHOWS AND FOOTBALL GAMES THAT ARE MOSTLY COMMERCIALS AND YOU CAN ORDER PIZZA FROM YOUR SPY-PHONE!! HAVE YOU HEARD THE LATEST VERSION OF THE POP SONG BY ATTRACTIVE GIRL???

AMERICA! fark YEAH! BE GLAD YOU DON'T LIVE IN ONE OF THEM COMMIE COUNTRIES!!

HTTR!!

/"Orwellian" no longer means anything.
2012-12-13 09:16:56 AM  
2 votes:
That's nuthin'. Another article on the same page:

City issued speed camera ticket to motionless car
2012-12-13 09:09:19 AM  
2 votes:
I really really hate speed and red light revenue generators er I mean safety enforcing cameras.
2012-12-13 11:44:58 AM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: Killahertz: For fark's sake, people, just drive the goddamn posted speed limit. Don't like the "revenue generators"? Think they're imposing Orwellian oversight onto your God-given right as an American to do whatever you damn well please? Let's look at some numbers.

Say the normal speed of traffic along a 5-mile stretch of road is 75 mph. At that speed, it would take 240 seconds to travel those 5 miles. If that 5-mile stretch of road were under construction, with a posted speed limit of 55 mph, it would now take 325 seconds to travel those 5 miles. This means that slowing down to the posted limit increases your drive time by 85 seconds.

85 FARKING SECONDS!

If it helps quell the rage, look at it this way: If driving for 85 seconds longer saves you a $50 citation, that's equivalent to a job which pays over $2000/hr.



It's not about saving time. I like to drive fast. You don't, then get out of the way and don't cause problems by slowing people down on purpose. Plus, getting stuck at traffic lights that are timed to speed and distance increases commute time dramatically. My commut can take 20 minutes, or it can take an HOUR. That's not 85 farking seconds.


Speed up or get out of the way.


Emotionally, I agree with you. I like to drive fast. Most speed limits are well below the speed that a person with normal reflexes could drive drive safely, even if there was construction. This is the reason most people drive above the speed limit (including about 90% of the cops). Some people are a bit slow by nature and need that extra reaction time and others are willing to follow rules unquestioningly and those people can stay in the slow lane. Most motorists can't help but recognize that unless you're going insanely fast or are distracted or aggressive, driving over the speed limit is not inherently unsafe.

However, I now have a long highway commute and there are quite a few cops along it so I've been forced to drive slower. I'll admit my commute is actually not much longer. It's painfully boring, but it's not much longer.
2012-12-13 10:39:16 AM  
1 votes:

destrip: It's painfully obvious what they're for. If speed was a real issue, they'd deploy measures to encourage people to slow down at the moment (rumble strips, an unoccupied cop car parked in the construction zone, a "your speed" radar sign, etc.), not something that sends them a ticket in the mail weeks after. And why wouldn't they leave them on 24/7? Would you shut off a camera if it was raking in thousands in free money each day?

These things should be illegal. Period. If a place needs speed enforcement, put a cop there.


One of the things I like about the Michigan State Police is they sit there on the median, with their lights on to help mark work zones. They also have a radar gun out and well if you're dumb enough to speed past the cruiser, you deserve what comes next.
2012-12-13 10:31:17 AM  
1 votes:

DON.MAC: lordjupiter: It's not about saving time. I like to drive fast. You don't, then get out of the way and don't cause problems by slowing people down on purpose. Plus, getting stuck at traffic lights that are timed to speed and distance increases commute time dramatically. My commut can take 20 minutes, or it can take an HOUR. That's not 85 farking seconds.

People tend to underestimate how bad stop lights screw up traffic flow. The local traffic department decided that all traffic lights now need a protected turn so as they were busy installing these, people became so used to not having to think about turning across traffic that the accident rates for that type of wreck when way up. The protected turn lights screw up traffic flow by compounding travel time at 85%. I like to describe it as a bank loan going from 55% to 85% except it is stealing the time of every driver on the road.




I think there might be research (if you can find any that's non-biased) showing increases in certain types of accidents at intersections with red light cameras. People jam on their brakes to avoid risking a ticket, and they get rear-ended. This is a topic that's been discussed for years, and some of us predicted it. Camera enforcement is not always the answer.

In MD we have a law against hand-held cell phone use. But people still do it EVERYWHERE. That's the real hazard on the road. Hell, even talking on a bluetooth is still as distracting as talking on a hand-held, and is different from talking to someone in the car.

When there's a line of cars backed up behind some slow farker in the fast lane, 9 times out of 10 in MD it's someone yapping on a phone. THAT is causing more of a hazard than going 12mph over speed limits that were set during the energy crisis 30-40 years ago, and do not necessarily represent the REAL "safe speed" for travel.
2012-12-13 10:26:37 AM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: It's not about saving time. I like to drive fast. You don't, then get out of the way and don't cause problems by slowing people down on purpose. Plus, getting stuck at traffic lights that are timed to speed and distance increases commute time dramatically. My commut can take 20 minutes, or it can take an HOUR. That's not 85 farking seconds.


People tend to underestimate how bad stop lights screw up traffic flow. The local traffic department decided that all traffic lights now need a protected turn so as they were busy installing these, people became so used to not having to think about turning across traffic that the accident rates for that type of wreck when way up. The protected turn lights screw up traffic flow by compounding travel time at 85%. I like to describe it as a bank loan going from 55% to 85% except it is stealing the time of every driver on the road.
2012-12-13 10:20:14 AM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: Which means they are essentially just sneakily lowering the speed limit to levels even below the "safe" range for extended periods of time, and ticketing people via cameras and the mail.


RedFlex has paid for some research showing that 3 km/hr (almost 2 mph) over the limit is deadly and now the state of Victoria used that research to set the enforcement limits at 3%. It has done great things for their bottom line, increased congestion and caused more accidents and deaths on the roads.
2012-12-13 10:19:51 AM  
1 votes:
Let's "DO THE MATH" on how much of my life is wasted on the road behind people who can't KEEP UP WITH THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC.

On second thought, let's not. It's too depressing.
2012-12-13 10:19:35 AM  
1 votes:
So all those speeders called ahead to see if any workers and/or equipment was present?

Some times there really are people there at night. There is also equipment. And there is a damn sign that gives the speed limit.
2012-12-13 10:18:09 AM  
1 votes:

Killahertz: For fark's sake, people, just drive the goddamn posted speed limit. Don't like the "revenue generators"? Think they're imposing Orwellian oversight onto your God-given right as an American to do whatever you damn well please? Let's look at some numbers.

Say the normal speed of traffic along a 5-mile stretch of road is 75 mph. At that speed, it would take 240 seconds to travel those 5 miles. If that 5-mile stretch of road were under construction, with a posted speed limit of 55 mph, it would now take 325 seconds to travel those 5 miles. This means that slowing down to the posted limit increases your drive time by 85 seconds.

85 FARKING SECONDS!

If it helps quell the rage, look at it this way: If driving for 85 seconds longer saves you a $50 citation, that's equivalent to a job which pays over $2000/hr.




It's not about saving time. I like to drive fast. You don't, then get out of the way and don't cause problems by slowing people down on purpose. Plus, getting stuck at traffic lights that are timed to speed and distance increases commute time dramatically. My commut can take 20 minutes, or it can take an HOUR. That's not 85 farking seconds.


Speed up or get out of the way.
2012-12-13 10:17:01 AM  
1 votes:

JosephFinn: God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.


Does the whooshing sound of points going over your head ever get old, or are you able to tune it out?
2012-12-13 10:16:36 AM  
1 votes:

tuxq: I'm all for speed cameras, especially in Work Zones and School Zones. Have you ever been on a construction site on the side of the road and had people pass you at highway speeds? It's ridiculous.


When there are workers actually working near the traffic path I have no problem with slowing them down. In my experience this is the minority of work zones, though. I have even encountered a "work zone" with absolutely no construction visible. (The actual work was on the other side of the road and the road split around a rocky knoll at there.)

As for school zones--they should be banned for safety's sake. The problem is that they teach kids that cars will stop for them. The result is things like a high profile case here some years back, a 13? year old started across the school zone without ensuring it was clear. It was 2 minutes before the lights came on.

This text is now purple: ZAZ: pag1107: I've always thought running one of those little white camera jeeps would make a great 2nd job. Sit there all evening reading a magazine or newspaper or book.

A guy in Arizona shot and killed a speed camera van occupant.

and nothing of value was lost.


The windshield has no value?

iheartscotch: Yeah, no; just because you don't see anyone working doesn't signify that there isn't anyone working. A work zone is a work zone 24 hours a day for that reason. They do a lot of things at night when there are less cars passing by. Blasting is almost exclusively done at night. Some work zones are only active at night.


If there aren't any crews there and the lanes aren't being messed with there is no justification for a reduced speed limit.

Knucklepopper: The cameras are set for travel 12 mph over the speed limit. That is more than enough of a cushion. If cameras were truly only for revenue, they would be set to trigger at a lower speed.


The invisible construction I mentioned earlier in this post involved speed limits that were reduced 40mph.

DON.MAC: There are some cameras on a new highway around here that seem to issue the same number of tickets every day even when they drop the speed limit by 20% but the cameras aren't set to the lower limit. There have been a few attempts to fix problem with the cameras in the past which would result in serious drops in the number of citations yet they claim the things have always worked correctly. The best part of the mess is that the camera operator has a contract that says if the state pulls the camera, they are due their cut of the revenue they would have earned which turns out to be three quarters of a billion dollars over 30 years.


Revenue protection contracts like that should be banned and existing ones voided.
2012-12-13 10:06:59 AM  
1 votes:
Because catching real criminals is hard work.
2012-12-13 10:02:12 AM  
1 votes:

iheartscotch: Carn: JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.

It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?

Yeah, no; just because you don't see anyone working doesn't signify that there isn't anyone working. A work zone is a work zone 24 hours a day for that reason. They do a lot of things at night when there are less cars passing by. Blasting is almost exclusively done at night. Some work zones are only active at night.


He said "when no one is around", hence, my joke. I stand by everything I said about safety. Quietly tracking people's speed and then sending them a letter a couple days later does not make them slow down in the moment. A cop car with lights on sure as shiat does.
2012-12-13 09:54:27 AM  
1 votes:

Knucklepopper: HindiDiscoMonster: tuxq: Carn: JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.

It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?

Since road construction has no set hours of the day, how exactly do you propose the speed cameras work? How inconvenient is it for people to do 55mph instead of 65? Honestly.

What is more dangerous?

1: Driving slower than the majority of motorists around you, thereby forcing the flow of traffic around you
2: Driving at a similar pace as the traffic around you

/cameras are for revenue, not safety

The cameras are set for travel 12 mph over the speed limit. That is more than enough of a cushion. If cameras were truly only for revenue, they would be set to trigger at a lower speed.




The level is set because of calibration and legal concerns. It's not worth fighting over a few mph over the speed limit for those reasons.

My wife has been caught twice around 9pm on I-695 and she was only going 65mph, which is less than the 12mph cushion. It seems that they're imposing the reduced speed limit rules for the work zone when no work is going on there in addition to the general enforcement measures associated with speeding in a work zone.

Which means they are essentially just sneakily lowering the speed limit to levels even below the "safe" range for extended periods of time, and ticketing people via cameras and the mail.

fark that. This is about revenue.
2012-12-13 09:41:36 AM  
1 votes:

Joshua5: Also, he said, "four out of five injuries that take place in work zones are to the motorists themselves."


In non work zones, five out of five injuries are to the motorists themselves. Seems speeding in a work zone is proportionally safer for drivers.
2012-12-13 09:35:49 AM  
1 votes:
Wouldn't placing knowingly false data on an official piece of evidence qualify as falsification of evidence?
Any Fark lawyers want to chime in?
2012-12-13 09:27:39 AM  
1 votes:
I've got no problem with the tickets if the work zone is really a work zone, workers or no. But to me that means lane closures, concrete barriers, lanes that move in and out of the "shoulder" so they can get two lanes through instead of just one. I don't want someone blowing past me at 80 when the lanes are 8 feet wide and the right side of my car is 3 inches from a concrete divider.

Then you've got states like West Virginia where every few miles there's a work zone which consists entirely of two signs and traffic cones placed in the grass every 100 yards for a couple of miles. I be plenty pissed if I got a speeding ticket in one of those work zones.
2012-12-13 09:26:37 AM  
1 votes:

Joshua5: From the article:

But Tabacek says the state always wants people slowing down in work zones. Also, he said, "four out of five injuries that take place in work zones are to the motorists themselves."

So its for our safety during times when workers are not present.



Well, that seems fair. Often one'll find lanes move around (with pylons directing the flow), and the pavement conditions can vary wildly. So, I can see the argument. Plus: Hey, free money!

/Only took 15 comments for someone to read the article - not bad, considering this'll probably top 200
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-12-13 09:24:00 AM  
1 votes:
pag1107: I've always thought running one of those little white camera jeeps would make a great 2nd job. Sit there all evening reading a magazine or newspaper or book.

A guy in Arizona shot and killed a speed camera van occupant.
2012-12-13 09:18:19 AM  
1 votes:

JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?


This isn't always true either. Twice I've seen "work zones" where there was no equipment or anything, as if they simply "forgot" to take down the lowered speed limit signs. Also, it's very common for the reduced speed limit to continue for up to a mile beyond the end of the work zone. I remember this happening on the Baltimore beltway inner loop. One time, there was work done around the I-95 interchange (on the top side), but the speed limit didn't go back up until well after Rt 702. This is about a mile or so of no work zone, but a lowered speed limit.
2012-12-13 09:16:49 AM  
1 votes:

Carn: JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.

It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?


Since road construction has no set hours of the day, how exactly do you propose the speed cameras work? How inconvenient is it for people to do 55mph instead of 65? Honestly.
2012-12-13 09:15:55 AM  
1 votes:

JosephFinn: Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it BECAUSE IT'S A DAMN WORK ZONE WITH EQUIPMENT AND HORSESHOES EVEN WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND?

God, speeders will find any justification for their bad behavior.


It's a work zone with no workers and no work being done. Kinda like parkway vs driveway?
2012-12-13 09:15:49 AM  
1 votes:
This is what you get when you cut taxes. They have to find other ways to find revenue.
2012-12-13 09:07:58 AM  
1 votes:
There is a shocker. Its never about safety
 
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